The most powerful objection to my views on the Gospel of Jesus considered (2020-12-31) #

0:00:01 hello and in this uh episode
0:00:03 on new year's eve i want to talk about
0:00:05 what may be the most powerful
0:00:07 single objection to the views that i
0:00:10 commonly articulate in my conversations
0:00:13 and debates with christians and in my
0:00:15 own understanding of
0:00:16 what jesus ministry was about i think
0:00:19 that
0:00:20 the message that jesus preached wasn't
0:00:22 uh the christian gospel
0:00:24 but it was quite different it was based
0:00:26 around the uh devotion to the one
0:00:28 the one god with an emphasis on mercy
0:00:31 and love and forgiveness against
0:00:32 hypocrisy
0:00:34 uh an emphasis on interior sincerity
0:00:37 uh rather mere externality and uh
0:00:40 there is no mention in in my
0:00:42 understanding of jesus death
0:00:45 being required for salvation to enter
0:00:48 into the kingdom
0:00:48 for forgiveness of sins because people
0:00:51 were entering into the kingdom
0:00:52 of god um the prostitutes and the tax
0:00:55 collectors and the poor and so on as
0:00:57 luke mentions long before uh this
0:01:00 sacrificial death on the cross but uh
0:01:03 the objection is made
0:01:04 that if one looks at the gospels
0:01:06 particularly the end of jesus's life
0:01:09 on the night that he was betrayed we
0:01:12 come across something called the last
0:01:14 supper and this is
0:01:16 commemorated in today's churches it's
0:01:18 called the mass or the eucharist
0:01:21 or holy communion or the last supper
0:01:24 basically looking back uh to this event
0:01:28 that uh the bible records apparently
0:01:32 and our earliest recollection of that
0:01:34 the earliest uh narration of that is in
0:01:36 paul's letters
0:01:37 and i just wanted to read to you what it
0:01:40 says
0:01:41 in 1 corinthians chapter 11
0:01:44 verse 23 onwards it says for i received
0:01:48 from the lord but i also handed on to
0:01:50 you
0:01:50 that the lord jesus on the night that he
0:01:53 was betrayed
0:01:54 took a loaf of bread and when he had
0:01:56 given thanks
0:01:57 he broke it and said this is my body
0:02:00 that is for you
0:02:01 do this in remembrance of me
0:02:05 in the same way he took the cup also
0:02:07 after supper saying
0:02:09 this is the cup of the new covenant in
0:02:11 my blood
0:02:13 do this as often as you drink it in
0:02:15 remembrance
0:02:16 of me for as often as you eat
0:02:20 this bread and drink this cup you
0:02:22 proclaim
0:02:23 the lord's death until he comes
0:02:27 so this is commonly understood to be the
0:02:29 institution
0:02:30 of the lord's supper and clearly
0:02:32 portraying jesus death
0:02:34 as sacrificial as inaugurating a new
0:02:37 covenant
0:02:39 and as being absolutely key for
0:02:41 salvation and the forgiveness of sins
0:02:43 so this is seen as this passage is seen
0:02:46 as a decisive
0:02:47 objection to the my own understanding of
0:02:50 the gospel of jesus
0:02:51 which i've just mentioned so there are
0:02:54 one or two
0:02:55 possible ways of responding to this
0:02:57 objection
0:02:58 and um i want to share with you
0:03:02 uh some comments in this book which i
0:03:04 mentioned in a previous video
0:03:06 unity and diversity in the new testament
0:03:08 an inquiry into
0:03:10 the character of earliest christianity
0:03:12 by
0:03:13 professor jimmy dunn of durham
0:03:15 university
0:03:17 and he has a paragraph directly
0:03:19 commenting on the nature of
0:03:21 paul's comments in one corinthians which
0:03:23 i think throw
0:03:24 a completely different light on the
0:03:26 whole
0:03:27 argument and um and i'll just read it
0:03:30 and then make some comments
0:03:32 so on page 72 of dunn's book he writes
0:03:36 here is a tradition of jesus's words
0:03:38 which peter clearly believes
0:03:40 should govern the common meals of the
0:03:42 corinthians
0:03:44 at the same time he has no compunction
0:03:47 about adding what appears to be his own
0:03:49 interpretation to the received formula
0:03:52 quote
0:03:53 for as often as you eat this bread and
0:03:55 drink this cup
0:03:56 you proclaim the lord's death until he
0:03:58 comes
0:04:00 that's 1126 moreover
0:04:03 he specifically designates the source of
0:04:05 the last supper tradition as
0:04:07 the lord this seems to mean not so much
0:04:10 that the earthly jesus was the original
0:04:12 source
0:04:13 of the tradition but rather that paul
0:04:16 understood the present
0:04:17 exalted jesus to be the immediate source
0:04:20 of the historical formula that is to say
0:04:24 that it was authoritative not because it
0:04:26 was a tradition
0:04:28 but because it was received and accepted
0:04:30 on the direct authority
0:04:32 of the exalted one compare and note the
0:04:35 present tense in 1 corinthians
0:04:37 7 10. here again
0:04:41 evidently we are back with the idea of
0:04:43 pneumatic tradition
0:04:45 tradition which is authoritative because
0:04:47 of its immediate inspiration
0:04:49 and its direct relevance end quote
0:04:54 so i think in simpler language what um
0:04:58 don is saying is that this story the
0:05:01 last supper
0:05:02 according to paul and i think done is
0:05:05 right to stress
0:05:06 verse 23 for i received from the lord
0:05:10 what i also handed on to you that the
0:05:12 lord jesus on the night that he was
0:05:14 betrayed
0:05:14 took a loaf of bread etc so
0:05:17 paul it seems received this uh
0:05:20 institution of the last supper
0:05:22 directly from the exalted christ
0:05:26 he did not receive it from peter james
0:05:30 uh john or any of the the actual
0:05:32 disciples of jesus
0:05:33 and indeed elsewhere paul is very clear
0:05:36 that the gospel himself
0:05:38 that he preaches is uh he had not
0:05:40 received from any human being
0:05:42 and in galatians um he makes that very
0:05:45 clear in galatians chapter 1
0:05:47 where he says about the gospel that he
0:05:49 preaches verse 11
0:05:51 i want you to know that the gospel that
0:05:54 was proclaimed by me
0:05:56 is not of human origin for i did not
0:05:58 receive it from a human source
0:06:00 nor was i taught it but i received it
0:06:04 through a revelation
0:06:05 of jesus christ so these ideas that paul
0:06:08 is preaching
0:06:09 um which uh he has also passes on to
0:06:13 the corinthians to the thessalonians to
0:06:16 the people in the church in colossia
0:06:19 to wherever he founded a church
0:06:22 this is what he taught them was the
0:06:24 christian faith this is what he taught
0:06:25 them as the gospel
0:06:26 he didn't receive that from any of jesus
0:06:28 disciples
0:06:29 he received it from a mystical encounter
0:06:32 with the exalted jesus
0:06:34 now there are three accounts in the book
0:06:37 of acts
0:06:38 written by luke of uh
0:06:42 paul's claim that on the road to
0:06:44 damascus
0:06:45 he had this incredible encounter with
0:06:47 jesus with the written cr
0:06:49 isn't christ and these he calls
0:06:52 visions this is not my word uh if you
0:06:55 look at
0:06:56 acts chapter 26
0:06:59 there are three accounts as i say of
0:07:01 this story in acts
0:07:02 in the last account acts 26 verse 19
0:07:06 he tells this story to king agrippa and
0:07:09 he says i was not
0:07:10 disobedient to the heavenly vision this
0:07:13 refers to the story of his encounter
0:07:16 on the road to damascus he has just
0:07:17 described in the preceding
0:07:19 verses and uh
0:07:23 agrippa says you are out of your mind
0:07:24 paul too much learning has drived you
0:07:27 insane
0:07:27 that's um the king's uh perhaps
0:07:30 insightful
0:07:31 response so paul gets his teaching not
0:07:35 from
0:07:36 uh jesus uh the historical jesus who he
0:07:39 never met
0:07:39 he doesn't get it from his disciples who
0:07:42 he doesn't
0:07:42 he absolutely clear he doesn't get that
0:07:44 teaching from them he gets it from a
0:07:46 vision
0:07:47 and then he founds his churches in the
0:07:49 gentile world who then pass it on to
0:07:52 uh their succeeding uh generations
0:07:55 now what about the gospels well
0:07:58 if you look at the the wording uh in 1
0:08:01 corinthians 11
0:08:03 it is pretty much the same as we found
0:08:05 in matthew mark and luke
0:08:06 with some very slight differences it
0:08:08 looks as if they have taken this
0:08:09 tradition
0:08:11 uh that has been passed on by paul to
0:08:13 his churches
0:08:15 they've taken this tradition which was
0:08:17 uh came about
0:08:18 some years earlier in the 1950s early 19
0:08:22 early a.d 50 when the letter was written
0:08:26 uh one corinthians and they've
0:08:27 incorporated that story into
0:08:30 their telling of the gospel because the
0:08:32 gospels are not written by eyewitnesses
0:08:34 as is now universally acknowledged by
0:08:37 new testament scholars
0:08:38 their second generation um creations and
0:08:41 they're not written by
0:08:42 disciples or eyewitnesses so
0:08:45 the origin of this last supper story
0:08:47 seems to be uh
0:08:49 paul's vision that he had of jesus
0:08:52 not the historical jesus and that's what
0:08:55 dun says
0:08:56 now this is quite uh explosive it's
0:08:59 a huge game changer in terms of the
0:09:03 debate about
0:09:03 jesus own message jimmy dunn continues
0:09:08 um just to drive the point home i guess
0:09:11 paul
0:09:12 also appeals on several occasions in one
0:09:14 corinthians
0:09:15 to the practices of other churches in
0:09:17 the gentile mission and he quotes a
0:09:19 bunch of texts
0:09:20 here evidently a former church tradition
0:09:22 was growing up which could be appealed
0:09:24 to
0:09:25 as some sort of unifying bond but
0:09:28 if uh 1 corinthians 11 is any guide
0:09:32 these were practices which served to
0:09:34 commend the new christian groups to the
0:09:36 societies in which they lived
0:09:38 a bit oblique what dumb means by that
0:09:40 and then he says and paul
0:09:42 as the creator of that tradition
0:09:44 certainly did not regard it as having an
0:09:46 independent authority
0:09:47 so paul is the creator of the tradition
0:09:50 of the last supper
0:09:52 he didn't get it from jesus the
0:09:53 historical jesus didn't get it from
0:09:55 peter from james from paul
0:09:56 he created it and ultimately many years
0:10:00 later
0:10:00 in the second generation when whoever
0:10:03 wrote matthew mark and luke came along
0:10:05 it was the common practice of many many
0:10:07 churches that paul had founded
0:10:09 to believe that the death of jesus uh
0:10:12 was sacrificial
0:10:13 and that supplanted and took the place
0:10:16 of the gospel of jesus
0:10:17 which had a very different focus and a
0:10:19 very different
0:10:20 um soteriology and very different
0:10:23 theology
0:10:24 what about the gospel of john well as is
0:10:27 well known
0:10:27 um the gospel of john doesn't contain
0:10:31 a last supper clearly it comes from a
0:10:33 different tradition
0:10:34 uh because the synoptic gospels as as we
0:10:36 know matthew
0:10:38 and luke use mark the earlier gospel
0:10:40 written in the 70s a.d
0:10:42 so it's a good 20 years later after paul
0:10:45 um
0:10:46 handed on that tradition to the
0:10:48 corinthians um
0:10:50 and matthew as i say matthew and luke
0:10:52 used mark so really just one source
0:10:54 which is
0:10:55 mark so probably mark got this story
0:10:58 from paul's churches
0:11:01 and then luke and matthew incorporated
0:11:03 that story into their own telling
0:11:05 of the gospel john however
0:11:09 is a separate tradition knows nothing of
0:11:12 the
0:11:12 last supper story although some do say
0:11:15 particularly catholics that john chapter
0:11:17 six
0:11:18 is a reference to um the eucharist but
0:11:21 it doesn't talk about allah suburb and
0:11:23 that's a scholarly issue but i'm not
0:11:24 going to get into
0:11:27 so this powerful objection to
0:11:30 my uh the most powerful objection i
0:11:32 think to my presentation of what jesus
0:11:34 preached
0:11:35 i nothing to do with a sacrificial death
0:11:38 on the cross
0:11:39 um actually evaporates if jimmy dunn
0:11:42 who is a christian who believes in the
0:11:44 trinity is right and i think he has a
0:11:46 good argument
0:11:47 because paul in 1 corinthians 11 says he
0:11:50 received this
0:11:51 from the lord and he didn't and he says
0:11:53 in corinthians he doesn't get this
0:11:54 in galatians i mean he doesn't get this
0:11:56 from any historical source any human
0:11:59 being
0:12:00 this is a mystical revelation
0:12:03 and he has a vision he says on the road
0:12:05 to damascus so here's a man given to
0:12:07 um visions and appearances
0:12:11 and words from another external power
0:12:15 and then he passes that on as historical
0:12:18 information about the historical jesus
0:12:20 and because of his powerful personality
0:12:22 and his brilliance
0:12:23 and what other and whatever other unseen
0:12:26 elements
0:12:27 are at work in his ministry
0:12:30 we have created what is called
0:12:33 christianity that we understand it today
0:12:37 and that seems to me a different
0:12:39 religion
0:12:40 from the religion of jesus in many many
0:12:42 ways yes there are some similarities
0:12:44 they both believe in moses they believe
0:12:46 in the god of israel
0:12:47 but the whole thrust of salvation and
0:12:49 the focus uh
0:12:50 is very different in jesus ministry it's
0:12:52 focused on god
0:12:53 in paul's ministry it's focused on jesus
0:12:56 death and resurrection
0:12:58 so i think the objection to my argument
0:13:00 um has been
0:13:01 uh pretty uh competently refuted by
0:13:05 a leading christian new testament
0:13:06 scholar
0:13:08 that is not historical in the sense that
0:13:11 it actually happened with the historical
0:13:12 jesus
0:13:13 paul believed maybe it was historical he
0:13:15 had a vision he didn't get it from any
0:13:17 historical or human source
0:13:19 the source comes from some um occult
0:13:23 uh source that we may never know really
0:13:26 what happened there
0:13:27 so i think that that's quite an
0:13:28 interesting insight and thank you to
0:13:29 jimmy dunn for providing
0:13:31 a powerful rebuttal to i think the most
0:13:35 persuasive compelling objection
0:13:38 to the reconstruction and arguments that
0:13:41 i presented
0:13:43 till next time