Clever Atheists Talk to Muslim (2018-03-05) ​

0:00:00 okay with you okay so so here I always
0:00:09 asked a question so if we see your
0:00:11 hovering ball that's expanding and in
0:00:13 any area so we're walking speakers
0:00:14 corner what would we say about this
0:00:16 hovering board okay good excellent so
0:00:21 here I would ask the question that the
0:00:22 universe is an expanding ball yeah okay
0:00:26 if you accept the idea of redshift and
0:00:29 expand the universe the Big Bang Theory
0:00:30 and the second okay so if that's what we
0:00:43 accept yeah so the question would be
0:00:44 okay so we've got a ball that's
0:00:45 expanding which is the universe it has a
0:00:47 cause
0:00:48 now let's with the process of deduction
0:00:50 and inference let's try and see what
0:00:52 what is the nature of the course yeah
0:00:55 history so why is the nature of the
0:00:58 course
0:00:59 why is causing that ball to be even okay
0:01:04 science yeah what is science
0:01:11 [Music]
0:01:20 did you agree that science is applicable
0:01:23 to the 3d world that we live in the
0:01:25 universe that we live in so so so for
0:01:31 instance I like that we live in a
0:01:32 universe right we team and this universe
0:01:34 sigh I would say that I don't know who
0:01:37 defined it the spot I think it's a very
0:01:38 good definition science is the study of
0:01:40 the patterns and regularities of the
0:01:42 universe that's not my definition so no
0:01:49 no all right right so if we're talking
0:01:52 about pre-big bang we're not talking
0:01:54 about the universe pre-big bang right
0:02:09 but if we're saying that the Big Bang
0:02:12 the singularity led to the expanding
0:02:14 universe that exists now then naturally
0:02:17 that which came before the Big Bang was
0:02:18 not within the context of the universe
0:02:24 [Music]
0:02:42 [Music]
0:02:56 because first of first and foremost I
0:02:58 feel like you've given agency to science
0:03:00 science is it is not something that is
0:03:02 is something you do but science is not a
0:03:20 wilt being that causes things to be okay
0:03:30 good so science is how we size and how
0:03:34 we see right the universe and how we
0:03:36 kind of reg how we see the patterns of
0:03:38 the universe and we can break it down to
0:03:40 like physics chemistry and biology etc
0:03:41 yeah okay good so from now perspective I
0:03:45 would say to you is that when we're
0:03:47 talking about the cause of the universe
0:03:48 we're talking about would you agree that
0:03:50 we will talk about a will of some sorts
0:03:53 yeah
0:03:56 I don't think there is a will behind
0:03:59 would you accept because I don't believe
0:04:07 that anyone would create a world
0:04:13 okay boy now before we get to that
0:04:15 before we get to that I'll say to you
0:04:20 that if we're saying before the universe
0:04:23 there was a course and that the inside
0:04:26 the universe should accept that because
0:04:27 science by the way if we're saying
0:04:29 slightly science is just within the
0:04:30 universe we're accepting that patterns
0:04:32 exist with the universe all right so
0:04:34 we're looking at the universe within
0:04:35 like we've seen a pattern each of us
0:04:36 right if there are patterns and laws
0:04:38 you'd except there are laws of physics
0:04:39 yeah so my question good all right so we
0:04:47 accept that the rules of physics yeah oh
0:04:48 and would you accept that these laws of
0:04:51 physics are complicated but would you
0:04:52 say that they are simple really
0:04:55 how do you define complexity and
0:04:57 simplicity if it's complex if we accept
0:05:05 that there are laws of physics which are
0:05:07 complex my question is how did they come
0:05:10 into being and you accept that there's
0:05:12 no such thing as random generations you
0:05:14 said that just now okay let's move what
0:05:21 move aside that I'd ever will now I'm
0:05:23 asking the question is the cause
0:05:24 intelligent or non intelligent okay so
0:05:29 my question so my question to you is how
0:05:32 could you have a complex universe
0:05:34 without intelligence behind it
0:05:38 but you can't have a future too
0:05:42 if you accept life if evolution is
0:05:47 something that we look at in the
0:05:48 biological realm yeah good right so if
0:05:58 there's something that we see on a level
0:06:00 which is biological here we're talking
0:06:03 about the in animals so this is what we
0:06:04 haven't reached the amperage of your
0:06:06 jealousies yet we haven't reached where
0:06:09 chemistry becomes biology we're still at
0:06:11 the stage where it's actually inanimate
0:06:12 objects celestial bodies now which not
0:06:16 having did you see what I'm saying so my
0:06:19 question is how did that how did the
0:06:21 laws of physics come to be in that
0:06:23 context how is it that we have complex
0:06:25 laws of physics in the context of the
0:06:27 universe okay okay
0:06:50 [Music]
0:07:29 okay that's a good question what is
0:07:32 knowledge how do we know what is so this
0:07:47 is a question of knowledge er so of
0:07:49 really epistemology so I was so I'll say
0:08:10 knowledge right how do you know that you
0:08:12 exist but even if you were a dream you'd
0:08:24 be either someone's dream or you'd be a
0:08:27 dream right
0:08:28 so that would prove existence because
0:08:35 III near a if you if you if you were a
0:08:39 dream right if you were a dream you know
0:08:42 how they can say I think therefore I am
0:08:44 he this this is good the Khajiit oh yeah
0:08:47 this cachito was attacked by Nietzsche
0:08:49 who wrote Beyond Good and Evil
0:08:51 I think hero in it that how can you put
0:08:54 how can you presuppose I he said you
0:08:56 can't presuppose I because I um
0:08:58 obviously it's a pronoun it's a personal
0:09:00 pronoun can't presuppose it so I'd agree
0:09:03 with that criticism it's a good put is
0:09:04 the strong criticism from each other
0:09:05 that's why post-modernism is quite
0:09:06 powerful
0:09:16 I'm coming too
0:09:18 how do we know things all right so so
0:09:22 I'm saying - I'm saying to you this yes
0:09:24 I used to how do we know because this
0:09:26 question of knowledge share my I put
0:09:28 this to you because I've said the
0:09:31 problem let us see the solution the
0:09:32 solution is this I believe that the
0:09:34 reasoning we as human beings employ to
0:09:37 know things are not know things is
0:09:38 probabilistic so in other words I know
0:09:41 [Laughter]
0:09:48 it's probabilistic yeah so in the sense
0:09:53 that okay I have a piste emic
0:09:56 probabilistic reasoning yeah that
0:09:58 happens on a on a daily basis for
0:10:00 instance I'm holding this I'm holding
0:10:02 this cup yeah which is whatever yeah I
0:10:04 know I can say with certainty I'm
0:10:07 holding this cup I'm here and I'm
0:10:08 holding this cup why because for me
0:10:10 epistemological II my Y classes
0:10:14 knowledge is not necessarily that which
0:10:16 reaches 100% threshold so for me even
0:10:18 though there might be a one percent
0:10:20 chance that okay I might not be here and
0:10:21 I might be asleep right now
0:10:22 but I'll say probabilistically based on
0:10:26 my experience and based on the factor I
0:10:28 trust my senses that's my presupposition
0:10:30 I'll say okay I'm here and I'm holding
0:10:31 this you get it so so based on the
0:10:34 evidences I put all those evidences
0:10:36 together to come with this kind of
0:10:37 aggregate probability and that happens
0:10:40 subconsciously of us on a daily basis
0:10:41 and then I say okay this is all this
0:10:43 isn't so in the context of the universe
0:10:45 I mean personally I do the same things I
0:10:48 look at them the law and order of the
0:10:50 universe
0:10:50 if you oh yeah all the laws of physics
0:10:52 who at the complicated laws of physics
0:10:53 are both agree exist within the concept
0:10:55 of universe and then I'll say okay
0:10:56 probabilistically looking at the the
0:10:59 options that we have you can either have
0:11:00 done this came from randomness which we
0:11:02 both reject what came from nothing which
0:11:04 we both project or that it was a chain
0:11:06 of X amount of universes which we would
0:11:09 not have any evidence for all that it
0:11:11 was caused into being by an intelligence
0:11:13 so would you say that that is the most
0:11:15 appropriate of the four pieces
0:11:17 the evidence is the course itself so I
0:11:20 believe in causation cause and effect
0:11:30 right so look I don't need to see the
0:11:33 fact that someone you see that horse's
0:11:35 head there I'm assuming this is quite
0:11:40 interesting it's the green thing in the
0:11:41 middle there so horse's head in marble
0:11:43 arch okay maybe many men usually
0:11:51 engineering architecture is dominated by
0:11:53 men so it's probably many so I don't
0:12:03 need to see that construct the
0:12:04 construction the architecture take place
0:12:06 right to know that is made by a designer
0:12:11 or an intelligence right now the same
0:12:13 thing I would say applies with universe
0:12:16 [Music]
0:12:26 you go I'm saying alright so in the
0:12:30 closets the universe
0:13:07 but coming back coming back do you
0:13:12 accept this one saying - I'm saying okay
0:13:15 you got to you know this is the universe
0:13:17 okay we accept that it's got complicated
0:13:18 laws existing within it a lot of physics
0:13:21 right we accept the other course so you
0:13:26 believe there's a simple
0:13:39 [Music]
0:13:45 there's a good point because you're
0:13:47 saying that yeah because what you're
0:13:48 saying is that look the the nature of
0:13:50 the fact that science is changing
0:13:51 indicates that we don't have all the
0:13:53 answers in terms of laws all right but
0:13:56 what I am saying
0:13:57 on a basic teal teeny illogical level
0:13:59 yeah and on a fine-tuning level on a
0:14:02 basic fine-tuning level I'm saying that
0:14:04 on a basic level that the universe
0:14:07 exists and whether it be through
0:14:09 aesthetic judgment or through a
0:14:11 complicated process of science or
0:14:14 whatever it may be we can appreciate the
0:14:15 fact that the universe exists with this
0:14:18 complete complicated mechanisms attached
0:14:19 to it at least
0:14:23 [Music]
0:14:31 well how'd you know that that's not part
0:14:33 of his design well this question so I
0:14:50 would say to look for you to understand
0:14:52 that you'd have to know from life
0:14:53 example uncommon obvious from the
0:14:54 Islamic perspective yeah the attributes
0:14:56 of God from an Islamic perspective so
0:14:58 okay so who NSI in perspective the
0:15:00 attributes of God is that we believe is
0:15:01 one that is all-powerful
0:15:03 thanks for knowledgable that he's
0:15:05 all-knowing and that he's the sustainer
0:15:08 maintained etc okay so that is what we
0:15:10 would consider good or what so he
0:15:14 maintained things yeah exactly so from
0:15:19 that angle and that's also deducible I
0:15:21 would say like come logically
0:15:22 so if God created the universe and the
0:15:25 universe is contingent upon his
0:15:26 existence therefore everything within
0:15:28 the universe is automatically in before
0:15:31 at the will of God
0:15:33 well the will of that entity that exists
0:15:35 outside or is transcendent of the
0:15:36 universe so it's not inside of it
0:16:07 well moving on so hey this is the C
0:16:10 system how I want you guys to know the
0:16:12 the Islamic thesis yeah sorry Islamic
0:16:14 thesis is this so will you say that
0:16:16 instead of believing cuz in the Quran it
0:16:19 says I'm cool woman highly shaken I'm
0:16:20 home we'll call a and this is this
0:16:22 why I use those three or four different
0:16:23 criteria because it's a chronic criteria
0:16:25 it says where they created from nothing
0:16:27 or where they themselves the creators of
0:16:28 themselves so in other words the third
0:16:31 thing is not mentioned because this is
0:16:32 meant to be like understood within the
0:16:34 context so you look at looking at the of
0:16:37 looking at the possibilities of how we
0:16:39 came into existence we've already ruled
0:16:42 out that we come we can't come from
0:16:44 nothing and that we couldn't be soft
0:16:45 creators because we're for us to be
0:16:47 software is or for University to self
0:16:49 create it would have to exist and not
0:16:51 exists at the same time which would be a
0:16:52 logical contradiction so of these
0:16:55 options we've concluded that okay that
0:16:58 the idea of a creator being being the
0:17:02 initiator of such a process and the
0:17:03 maintainer of it is the most yeah so
0:17:09 from that that's the first point so we
0:17:10 would say that after that's been
0:17:12 established now the question is what's
0:17:14 the purpose of life and I want to get on
0:17:15 and put it this way yeah wanna put this
0:17:17 way right I put it this way I've been
0:17:22 talking to the whole time okay look I've
0:17:31 you just I've used this once this bigger
0:17:32 screen let me use it again yeah I've
0:17:34 said that imagine one day yeah
0:17:39 Your Honor I think have you ever said
0:17:41 before you're on a train
0:17:42 yeah you want to train you wake up you
0:17:45 find yourself like on a train on a boat
0:17:47 on a ship on a plane or any vehicle and
0:17:51 you wake up you see yourself and it's
0:17:52 moving yeah what's the first question
0:17:55 you can ask yourself what why am I here
0:18:01 yeah where am I going is that would you
0:18:03 agree with why am I here and where am I
0:18:06 going
0:18:06 what why would you come to that
0:18:08 conclusion while we walk away those be
0:18:10 the first questions you'd ask
0:18:12 [Laughter]
0:18:19 so these questions are I would say in
0:18:21 shout out argue that they're intuitive
0:18:23 yeah so if we accept that do that there
0:18:27 is time and we're moving forward with
0:18:28 time and that there will be an end to
0:18:31 our journey yeah so the questions we
0:18:33 have to ask in life are the same
0:18:34 questions as we would ask if we're in
0:18:35 that vehicle in that context we say why
0:18:38 am I here and where we go in what am I
0:18:40 doing here where I come from that's
0:18:42 another question you want well I just
0:18:45 thing right so if you woke up on the
0:18:49 train and you woke up and you started
0:18:51 asking the passages around you where
0:18:53 that I come from where am I here where
0:18:55 am I going
0:18:55 and then the passenger train saluting
0:18:57 now listen we don't need to know the
0:18:59 answer - live for the present just enjoy
0:19:00 yourself on the train
0:19:01 what would you say to them maybe but
0:19:08 then on the other hand I would argue
0:19:11 that the thing that distinguishes or
0:19:13 demarcates human being from the rest of
0:19:15 the animals and inanimate creatures is
0:19:19 the ability to reason and the ability to
0:19:22 debilitate let me just be quick
0:19:24 specific about is 93 the ability to ask
0:19:27 why I would argue that I don't think on
0:19:30 that sentient level I don't think how'd
0:19:40 you know the ask way there might be some
0:19:45 biological reason for that I think from
0:19:50 an atheistic from an atheistic
0:19:53 biological even evolutionary perspective
0:19:56 an evolutionist will answer that
0:19:58 question or biologists will answer it
0:19:59 and commit suicide because there is a
0:20:02 functionality for that in the context of
0:20:04 the greater food chain and are they one
0:20:06 they've identified
0:20:35 she's right you know
0:20:39 no no no but she's right no that's right
0:20:44 that's right I like I like that then
0:20:46 that's good point and you made a good
0:20:47 point as well no I'm not trying you did
0:20:49 no no I like the consciousness point I
0:20:50 do like it but you made a good point as
0:20:51 well
0:20:52 there is no third person evidence to
0:20:54 suggest that we're conscious the only
0:20:56 example we'd only unreasoning we have is
0:20:58 first-person subjective experience
0:20:59 that's the only reason we can accomplish
0:21:01 this under a microscope there's a long
0:21:03 discussion on that I made a video on
0:21:04 this saying so what I would say was
0:21:29 right so the things this is follows
0:21:31 right I haven't gotten selective the
0:21:33 fullest our thesis yet so we're saying
0:21:36 that God fare the universe etc okay he
0:21:39 maintains it sustains that he's powerful
0:21:40 he's got that capacity moreover we will
0:21:43 say that now those questions if you were
0:21:46 to ask them those in need those who need
0:21:52 to ask
0:21:59 anyways as I was saying right yeah so
0:22:05 the question so we say that there were
0:22:07 intermediaries yeah God communicated
0:22:10 with the human beings through prophets
0:22:12 so you know Old Testament prophecy I'm
0:22:14 sure you've heard of like Abraham Moses
0:22:16 Jesus etc for us we believe is the
0:22:21 prophet all right so all of those
0:22:22 prophets came of that message to believe
0:22:25 in one God to worship one God and to do
0:22:27 good works and they also came with some
0:22:29 kind of evidence to prove that little
0:22:31 prophets okay and so they we also
0:22:34 believe that human being was was created
0:22:37 with an intuitive belief or you could
0:22:40 say in intrinsic yeah predisposition to
0:22:44 believe in God so what prophets and
0:22:47 messengers came to do was to reinforce
0:22:48 that belief or to remind human being of
0:22:51 the original creation and the original
0:22:53 purpose so all of those prophets came
0:22:55 before time was the message in the
0:22:56 miracle or the message in the evidence
0:22:58 like Jesus Moses Muhammad to tell people
0:23:01 who they are and basically to worship
0:23:05 Him God so it's aslam there's two
0:23:13 Islam's yeah all right so it's LOM the
0:23:17 Prophet Muhammad from his coming onwards
0:23:18 about 1400 or four years yeah but what
0:23:21 we're talking about Islam what we
0:23:23 consider Islam is because LOM means
0:23:25 counselor Advocaat is Islam Islam Islam
0:23:27 means submission so it was interesting I
0:23:30 always use this point Rousseau says
0:23:31 Rousseau as a French philosopher he says
0:23:33 man is born free he said man is born
0:23:46 free no man is born free but everywhere
0:23:49 and changed yeah we would say that
0:23:51 everyone and the Quran says is that
0:23:53 everyone is enslaved to something
0:23:57 1,440 is yeah they came before that so
0:24:09 yeah so we right right so yeah mm yeah
0:24:15 yeah right so we believe in all that so
0:24:17 so long as humans have been on the earth
0:24:18 we believe they have been prophets yeah
0:24:30 so we believe that all of the prophets
0:24:33 came since you mum yeah
0:24:39 Homo sapiens Homo sapiens yes no no so
0:24:45 what humans what the Islamic narrative
0:24:47 is so long as there has been human
0:24:49 civilization and human beings there has
0:24:52 been messages and prophets to tell
0:24:54 people about the message of Islam okay
0:24:56 so that extends backwards so Abraham was
0:24:59 a missive atomium prophet and formation
0:25:02 we know that Mesopotamia was one of the
0:25:03 first civilizations yeah yeah right
0:25:09 so so long as there's been human beings
0:25:11 what we say we say human being to be
0:25:14 over extended yeah so yeah
0:25:22 so that all of those profits came with
0:25:25 that fundamental message
0:25:37 I would say that that presupposes two
0:26:18 things and both of them are fallacious
0:26:20 actually it's fallacious reasoning let
0:26:22 me tell you why
0:26:23 yeah fallacy because even if that was
0:26:28 the case
0:26:29 let's just let's go with the ugly all
0:26:32 right so if I say the argument is that
0:26:34 okay human being have has an existential
0:26:36 crisis that's the origin yeah therefore
0:26:41 that is the origin of religion yeah I'll
0:26:44 say then okay then if you're saying
0:26:45 therefore religion is wrong that's the
0:26:47 genetic fallacy yeah so genetic fallacy
0:26:51 is to say that something is wrong as a
0:26:53 result of it because of its origins
0:26:56 which is which is false wisdom yeah
0:27:07 nananana if we're saying that human
0:27:09 being has an existential crisis and
0:27:11 therefore human being has not crazed
0:27:15 religion has felt the need to ask
0:27:16 questions like why and whatever like why
0:27:18 am i hearing things and therefore these
0:27:20 questions are social constructs if you
0:27:22 will yeah it doesn't mean that so my
0:27:27 point to you is this is that right
0:27:30 that's all right it's okay so the point
0:27:38 I'm trying to kind of get to is this so
0:27:41 Islam as a thesis the final prophet is
0:27:44 for Muhammad now the main difference
0:27:46 between Prophet Muhammad and all the
0:27:47 other problems that came before him and
0:27:49 our thesis I'll get a few on online now
0:28:00 some videos some guy with a knife or a
0:28:05 gun you know I'm gonna black flag behind
0:28:08 this cup here this man is talking about
0:28:12 you know Prophet Muhammad in this cup
0:28:14 anyways what I was gonna say was that
0:28:17 the main point of demarcation is that we
0:28:20 will say that for Muhammad he was a
0:28:23 universal messenger which is mentioned
0:28:26 in Chapter 7 verse 150 of the Quran so
0:28:28 he was sent for all of humankind whereas
0:28:30 all of the other prophets were sent for
0:28:32 their localities in their times that's
0:28:35 the time and even in the Bible if you
0:28:36 look at like Matthew and Mark Jesus was
0:28:38 meant to assay
0:28:40 what why so we would say we would accept
0:28:46 that there were prophets that were
0:28:47 probably sent to these areas we believe
0:28:50 in black prophet so Moses for us as a
0:28:51 black man yeah
0:28:53 we have local man who's a black man we
0:28:54 have to wait for us there's a hadith
0:28:56 that says 124,000 prophets so 134,000 to
0:29:01 represent the scope of humanity
0:29:03 aforetime so there were prophets that
0:29:06 were you like for example depictions of
0:29:09 Jesus are kind of white there are we
0:29:11 have conflicting narration some say that
0:29:12 he's kind of brown that brought darker
0:29:14 to me and some say that he is kind of
0:29:16 like white Muhammad was maybe this man's
0:29:20 color yeah so the thing is really and
0:29:23 truly we have a range of different in
0:29:25 this hammock narrative we have a range
0:29:27 of different prophets but all of them
0:29:28 came from a variety of different
0:29:29 countries and different places Mohammad
0:29:33 represents the last of those he's not
0:29:35 white and he's not black he's somewhere
0:29:37 in between if you think about it so why
0:29:39 is probably it may be because to kind of
0:29:42 represent as much of humanity as
0:29:44 possible possibly from a racial
0:29:46 perspective but you could also say that
0:29:48 he was centrally located because Saudi
0:29:51 Arabia if you look at world map is kind
0:29:53 of centrally located so it's the
0:29:55 expansion of Islam Westwood an eastward