Londoniyyah - Part 32 - Hadith Rejectors | Mohammed Hijab (2022-04-27) #

0:00:09 another session
0:00:10 here with the londoner poem
0:00:13 we're going to be covering something
0:00:15 very important which is
0:00:17 the qurani movement the quran alone
0:00:19 movement the
0:00:22 sunnah movement the people who reject
0:00:24 the sunnah
0:00:25 and these people
0:00:26 really are
0:00:28 seen by muslim people not to be actually
0:00:30 muslims at all
0:00:32 since the religion of islam really
0:00:34 comprises of the quran and the sunnah
0:00:37 and so the quran alone
0:00:39 movement i don't think any sect of islam
0:00:41 really considers these individuals as an
0:00:43 actual even a sect of islam but it's
0:00:45 important for us because of the age of
0:00:47 social media and globalization
0:00:49 uh and technological kind of being able
0:00:51 to speak to people across the world
0:00:54 and therefore this should misconceptions
0:00:56 have increased that we understand what
0:00:58 this movement is all about we know how
0:01:00 to answer this movement from the quran
0:01:02 itself ironically enough for them but
0:01:04 before i do that i wanted to actually
0:01:06 read a hadith that's hadith not a muslim
0:01:08 but it's a very interesting one and i'm
0:01:10 not reading it as an evidence against
0:01:12 them because i want someone
0:01:13 for you know from this movement
0:01:16 to uh to take this hadith and say well
0:01:18 actually you're using
0:01:19 these hadiths and so on no we're not
0:01:21 using this as an evidence for you
0:01:22 because the evidence is for them will be
0:01:24 strictly from the quran i think it will
0:01:26 be sufficient but it's just for our sake
0:01:28 our purpose is
0:01:29 to see that this is actually a prophecy
0:01:31 of the prophet muhammad we mention
0:01:34 that there were many prophecies of the
0:01:35 prophet
0:01:36 we actually use this to evidence the
0:01:38 veracity of the message of islam
0:01:42 and this is one of them the hadith
0:01:43 states
0:01:48 that it will soon there will soon come a
0:01:50 time
0:01:51 the man or the person in this case is
0:01:53 the man by is a general phrase
0:01:56 will be
0:02:00 he'll be reclining on his
0:02:03 sofa couch or
0:02:05 you know seated
0:02:07 thing
0:02:10 be hadith
0:02:13 so someone will speak to him of a hadith
0:02:15 of one of my hadiths and so he will say
0:02:19 banana kum kitab
0:02:22 that between us and you is the
0:02:24 kitab the book of allah meaning
0:02:32 whatever we find in it which is halal we
0:02:34 have made halal.
0:02:40 and whatever we find in it from haram
0:02:42 we'll make haram in other words we will
0:02:44 consider haram right
0:02:46 wherein
0:02:48 rasulullah
0:02:50 and this is now the prophet giving his
0:02:53 commentary he says however
0:02:56 whatever the prophet has made
0:02:59 halal or haram in this case
0:03:01 is as if allah has made meaning
0:03:04 that we as muslims don't believe
0:03:06 in just one type of revelation we
0:03:09 believe in two types of revelation
0:03:11 one type is the quran itself which is
0:03:13 the most important type undoubtedly the
0:03:15 most voracious type undoubtedly the most
0:03:18 transmitted type undoubtedly and then
0:03:20 you have the hadith
0:03:22 and the hadith is the difference between
0:03:24 let me ask this actually before we
0:03:26 continue from our perspective what is
0:03:28 the primary difference between the quran
0:03:30 and the hadith that's the question
0:03:34 the
0:03:35 so the quran this is the speech of allah
0:03:38 it's a verbatim speech of allah whereas
0:03:41 the hadith this is more like a wisdom or
0:03:45 knowledge which
0:03:46 is revealed to the prophet salallahu and
0:03:48 then he speaks
0:03:50 with his own words
0:03:51 okay great and it's revealed by whom
0:03:54 um
0:03:55 it's revealed from allah
0:03:58 so when it comes to the quran this was
0:03:59 revealed by allah um
0:04:02 two jibril and then jibril transmitted
0:04:04 it to
0:04:05 um the prophet um
0:04:08 okay good so it's so now we're talking
0:04:11 about the difference the main difference
0:04:12 here is that the quran is the verbatim
0:04:15 speech of god
0:04:17 all right
0:04:20 and that the hadith is
0:04:23 not
0:04:25 it's not the hadith it is what
0:04:27 it is the words of the prophet but it's
0:04:29 something maybe which has been explained
0:04:30 by the angel
0:04:32 gabriel
0:04:34 it is something potentially which has
0:04:36 been uh
0:04:37 elaborated and the prophet sallam said
0:04:39 put it in his own words
0:04:41 all right well let me play maybe devil's
0:04:43 advocate here someone says well what's
0:04:45 really the difference what is that
0:04:48 who knows what is
0:04:56 is something
0:04:58 from allah but related in the words of
0:05:00 the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam
0:05:02 so it's not the verbatim word of allah
0:05:04 but it is something from allah in the
0:05:07 words of the prophet sallallahu alaihi
0:05:14 you'll find that allah is speaking in
0:05:16 the first person sometimes
0:05:21 you see so it's still
0:05:23 you could call it
0:05:24 the speech of allah but it's different
0:05:26 to the quran in what sense
0:05:30 because the hadith
0:05:35 is
0:05:37 is a word for word what allah is saying
0:05:40 rather than a hadith which is normal
0:05:41 which is not a word for word while i say
0:05:44 so allah is transmitting something
0:05:46 through the angel gabriel
0:05:48 and that thing which has been
0:05:49 transmitted through the angel gabriel
0:05:51 becomes the quran
0:05:54 if it's recited in a certain format and
0:05:56 done a certain way but then it can also
0:05:58 be a hadith
0:06:00 how do we know which is which
0:06:03 i guess the prophet
0:06:04 will just tell salallahu like this isn't
0:06:06 the quran like there are probably many
0:06:08 things which allah speaks but not
0:06:10 everything that allah speaks is the
0:06:11 quran
0:06:12 that's that's true right so this is an
0:06:13 important point there are many things
0:06:15 which allah speaks but not everything
0:06:17 that allah speaks is the quran
0:06:19 because
0:06:20 the quran is a subset of the speech of
0:06:22 allah
0:06:23 it is not the entirety of it
0:06:26 so the quran is a subset of the speech
0:06:28 of allah
0:06:29 it's not the entirety of it and what is
0:06:31 the evidence from the quran for that
0:06:36 well give me one of it there's many
0:06:37 evidences actually
0:06:41 yes
0:06:42 well when um when allah says and we said
0:06:44 to we said to musa he doesn't then say
0:06:46 what he said to musa
0:06:49 well yeah so that when allah spoke to
0:06:51 musa
0:06:52 taklim and he spoke to him
0:06:55 we don't know what that is it's not the
0:06:56 quran
0:06:57 it's not the quran right
0:06:59 so previous books
0:07:01 is a good example of that what so that
0:07:03 is a speech of god
0:07:05 when allah spoke
0:07:07 he spoke to musa
0:07:09 that is a speech of allah which is not
0:07:11 the quran what other thing which is the
0:07:13 speech of allah
0:07:15 which is not the quran in the quran
0:07:20 which is something which counts as the
0:07:22 speech of allah
0:07:23 which does not include the quran itself
0:07:27 and the evidence of that is in the quran
0:07:30 the injeel is another thing of the
0:07:31 previous books yeah
0:07:33 so all of the previous books
0:07:36 okay what else
0:07:38 oh that is not the speech of allah no
0:07:39 that is the speech of allah
0:07:41 but it's not the quran
0:07:43 i don't know when like
0:07:45 other people are
0:07:46 speaking but allah is quoting them
0:07:48 about no no
0:07:53 stories of what
0:07:55 like
0:07:57 for example you know god asked the
0:07:59 iblees to prostrate and you know all
0:08:01 right so when allahi speaks
0:08:03 to
0:08:04 our for example a third party or some
0:08:07 other historical figure
0:08:10 we know that that the conversation
0:08:12 that's recorded
0:08:14 indicates that allah speaks to someone
0:08:17 else
0:08:18 okay
0:08:18 we know that the ones who allah spoke to
0:08:20 directly are people people like musa
0:08:22 salam muhammad sallallahu himself
0:08:27 not that many actually
0:08:29 but let me give you a hint on this one
0:08:31 yeah
0:08:32 what does allah say if you want
0:08:33 something to be
0:08:36 okay is that so kun
0:08:38 bi okay it's kun a speech of allah
0:08:42 yeah
0:08:43 yes
0:08:46 so quran is an example of speech of
0:08:48 allah which is not the quran
0:08:54 and this is when when we say that
0:08:57 jesus
0:08:58 he's
0:09:01 he's the word of allah
0:09:03 kalima is one word
0:09:06 it's a of a potential of a plurality of
0:09:10 words
0:09:11 which means that is
0:09:12 uh he is what is that a speech of allah
0:09:16 what is what word what's kind of like
0:09:17 what is isa it's actually a common
0:09:18 question christians come with it and
0:09:20 they say look you guys believe he was
0:09:21 the word and the word was flesh
0:09:24 therefore what we say is no no he's not
0:09:26 the word in the word with flesh the word
0:09:27 here refers to what
0:09:30 what word
0:09:31 corn itself that is the word
0:09:33 because in the quran it says
0:09:46 or jesus like the simulation of adam
0:09:48 that he created him from dust and he
0:09:50 said to him be and he was
0:09:55 so this is really the first thing
0:09:57 the the speech of allah
0:09:59 so the quran is a subset of the speech
0:10:01 of allah
0:10:04 can be said to be sometimes the speech
0:10:06 of allah you can use this kaalallah
0:10:09 that's what the prophet saw he says he
0:10:10 says
0:10:11 allah said and then he says whatever he
0:10:12 says
0:10:14 however there are some important
0:10:15 differences
0:10:17 the first important difference is that
0:10:18 the hadith
0:10:20 is not part of a
0:10:22 wider discourse
0:10:23 it's not part of the quran the surahs
0:10:26 are part of a wider discourse
0:10:29 so each surah acts as a message
0:10:33 standalone actually the word surah
0:10:34 itself comes from the arabic word
0:10:36 which means gate i'm not sure if you
0:10:38 know this each surah is self-contained
0:10:40 as if it's gated off from everything
0:10:42 else so it works by itself and if you
0:10:45 want to read any surah of the quran
0:10:47 it's intelligible and coherent by itself
0:10:50 as well as
0:10:52 in conjunction with other surah
0:10:55 one doesn't need to get a full flavor of
0:10:58 the message of islam by reading the
0:11:00 entirety of the quran and this might be
0:11:03 an important point because a lot of
0:11:04 people that want to know islam
0:11:06 get put off by the fact that there's
0:11:07 6236 verses and they say i don't want to
0:11:09 read 600 pages
0:11:11 you don't have to read 600 pages just if
0:11:13 you for example if someone wants to get
0:11:14 a flavor of a story in the quran maybe
0:11:17 you could recommend for them
0:11:19 yusuf because it's an entire surah
0:11:21 chapter 12 of the quran
0:11:23 if someone wants to get a flavor of some
0:11:25 of the hakam and the the
0:11:26 the uh you know the prohibitions and the
0:11:29 commands and the these kind of things
0:11:32 for example has so many of that kind of
0:11:33 thing if someone wants to get a flavor
0:11:35 of the eschatological nature of the
0:11:36 quran then the last kind of 10 20 30
0:11:39 surahs if not the last couple of just in
0:11:41 fact will give them that flavor
0:11:44 so you don't need to someone does not
0:11:45 need to read the entire quran to get a
0:11:47 flavor of what the quran is about each
0:11:48 surah is self-contained in and of itself
0:11:52 but in addition it's intelligible in
0:11:53 conjunction with all the other sorrows
0:11:55 as well
0:11:57 so the first thing that makes the
0:11:58 difference between the quran and the
0:12:00 hadith say is that the quran is
0:12:03 intelligent as part of a wider discourse
0:12:04 number two
0:12:06 is that hadith koti is conceivable that
0:12:08 you can have a hadith which is weak
0:12:12 and if the hadith qurci is weak
0:12:14 then we're not sure if allah actually
0:12:16 said this thing
0:12:17 because like anything hadees are divided
0:12:19 as you know into different
0:12:22 types
0:12:23 there's sahih
0:12:25 there's hassan
0:12:27 according to
0:12:28 hassan
0:12:29 hassan means
0:12:30 authentic
0:12:32 hassan
0:12:33 which is a you know good hassan
0:12:36 is good in
0:12:39 in consideration with another hadith
0:12:41 and then you have baif
0:12:43 which is weak
0:12:44 and then you have grades of
0:12:48 matruk
0:12:49 but this is not the space for this kind
0:12:51 of discussion
0:12:53 they says
0:12:55 transmitted
0:13:02 and so on
0:13:04 the quran is undoubtedly something which
0:13:06 has been mass transmitted
0:13:07 is undoubtedly something which
0:13:10 is not nothing of it is weak
0:13:12 and everything in it is part of a wider
0:13:14 discourse
0:13:15 and there are special privileges from an
0:13:18 islamic perspective of reading the quran
0:13:21 that one can never get reading here
0:13:22 hadith
0:13:24 among which is what the prophet saw he
0:13:25 said in the hadith
0:13:27 you know
0:13:29 or like
0:13:40 and for each letter is 10 times the
0:13:43 reward
0:13:44 so in other words when you read the
0:13:45 quran according to us according to the
0:13:47 prophet sallam
0:13:48 each letter you get 10 rewards for it
0:13:50 that's not the case with that hadith any
0:13:52 hadith
0:13:54 moreover you need to as we mentioned
0:13:55 before you touch the book you can't be
0:13:58 janet
0:14:00 like
0:14:00 if for example you've had intercourse
0:14:03 if i had or ejaculated
0:14:06 or a woman on her menstrual cycle
0:14:08 she cannot even recite the quran except
0:14:10 with a few exceptions
0:14:12 for example i'm not going to go into
0:14:14 that but the idea of purity a physical
0:14:17 purity is required before approaching
0:14:19 the quran this is not a requisite or
0:14:21 even a prerequisite for
0:14:22 the hadith even
0:14:26 you can recite the quran in a prayer you
0:14:27 can't recite any hadith in
0:14:30 it shows you the status of the quran as
0:14:32 the word of allah
0:14:34 is very very high now there is another
0:14:38 that some people may have a problem that
0:14:39 people have can it be that some words of
0:14:41 allah are better than others
0:14:44 and the majority of scholars say yes
0:14:48 yeah so
0:14:49 for example uh
0:14:51 famously i think associate mentions this
0:14:54 he gives example of
0:14:56 in his book in nikaya actually he he
0:14:58 wrote a book a very famous one called el
0:15:00 ether quran but he also book wrote a
0:15:02 book called the nikaya
0:15:04 which has been made into a small novel
0:15:05 called
0:15:07 zamzami
0:15:09 and he mentions this in that nothing
0:15:10 which he basically says that
0:15:13 for example if you compare sort of
0:15:16 accuracy with tablet
0:15:19 he's saying that the course is higher i
0:15:21 mean it's talking about allah the other
0:15:22 one's talking about someone has gone to
0:15:24 the hellfire so go figure in a sense
0:15:26 like you know which ones which ones have
0:15:28 a higher value
0:15:29 a verse which is entirely dedicated to
0:15:32 allah or one that's dedicated to the
0:15:34 demise and destruction of one of the
0:15:36 enemies of islam
0:15:38 obviously both are quran both are
0:15:40 beautiful and have the jazz in them and
0:15:42 all that kind of thing
0:15:44 but the idea of tafadul or the idea of
0:15:47 some parts of the quran some aspects of
0:15:49 the quran being more
0:15:51 virtuous and of higher value than others
0:15:53 is something is
0:15:54 accepted by this goal so these are
0:15:56 important
0:15:58 preambles because
0:15:59 uh obviously if someone says well if you
0:16:01 guys believe in hadith
0:16:03 you're saying that some speech is better
0:16:05 than other speech or and we know how to
0:16:07 answer these questions now we don't feel
0:16:09 like we're trapped yeah we do believe
0:16:11 that some speech is better than a speech
0:16:12 in fact
0:16:13 is that unintelligible as a proposition
0:16:19 from
0:16:26 yeah i mean there is a difference
0:16:28 opinion on whether they were ruled
0:16:29 accepted uh but definitely those two
0:16:32 uh uh the prophet sallam he put them in
0:16:34 the
0:16:35 in fact things that he would two last
0:16:37 areas of the surat
0:16:39 which he would recite all the time every
0:16:41 night basically and he even said in a
0:16:43 hadith whoever recites those two
0:16:45 it would suffice him
0:16:48 he would suffice him reading meaning it
0:16:50 will be enough for him
0:16:52 uh it's a very powerful ayat you know uh
0:16:55 which we should think about anyway
0:16:57 now the next order of business so we
0:16:59 talked about the first thing is
0:17:01 what is
0:17:03 it's the speech of allah is uncreated
0:17:05 obviously the martesi didn't believe
0:17:06 that
0:17:08 all right
0:17:08 they believe that allah
0:17:11 his speech was created we're not going
0:17:12 to go into a great discussion but i'll
0:17:13 give you one reason why they said that
0:17:15 that they said that you know if you look
0:17:17 at the quran although to be completely
0:17:19 honest with you
0:17:20 they used the quran as a supporting
0:17:21 evidence to the otherwise kind of
0:17:23 rational argumentation
0:17:25 and if you know how the maha tesla's
0:17:26 made an argument that's a whole
0:17:28 philosophical discussion we can't really
0:17:29 get into
0:17:30 you know johan
0:17:32 and uh and how these things and atoms
0:17:35 and all that kind of thing and if uh if
0:17:37 it's in the creation outside the
0:17:38 creation but they use the verse in the
0:17:40 quran which is
0:17:42 that he created everything and i say
0:17:44 well look that must mean he created the
0:17:45 quran
0:17:49 obviously
0:17:55 you know so obviously if one wants to
0:17:57 use that argument it's pretty uh
0:17:59 nullified and we know that all of these
0:18:01 when when they are
0:18:03 in the quran there are certain verses
0:18:05 which is what is referred to as
0:18:09 something which sounds like it's
0:18:10 speaking in generalities but actually
0:18:12 what's intended is
0:18:14 something which is specific but we don't
0:18:16 need to go into that detail uh the point
0:18:18 is we as a solution i think pretty much
0:18:20 everyone agrees that the quran is
0:18:22 uncreated
0:18:23 and everyone knows that you know ahmed
0:18:25 hamil went through a great trial in
0:18:28 trying to prove this point
0:18:30 so this is the position
0:18:32 having said this now
0:18:35 the question remains
0:18:37 so what is the evidence
0:18:39 within the quran that we should be
0:18:41 looking outside of the quran in order to
0:18:44 seek guidance or that there's any kind
0:18:46 of revelation aside from the quran
0:18:50 that we can seek guidance from so i'll
0:18:51 leave you to speak to the person next to
0:18:53 you for the next
0:18:55 five minutes
0:18:56 and i want what i want is for you guys
0:18:58 to try and find
0:19:00 your top three verses which indicate
0:19:04 or evidence
0:19:05 that uh there is a sunnah a and b that
0:19:07 should be
0:19:08 followed please uh do that
0:19:12 okay okay let's get started let's um
0:19:14 what kind of things do people have
0:19:19 well if this kind of silence uh if you
0:19:20 confronted
0:19:22 with this kind of
0:19:36 if you love allah then follow me and
0:19:39 allah will love you and follow me he is
0:19:41 talking about the prophet muhammad right
0:19:43 yeah so so the idea is what then well
0:19:45 the idea is very clear is that um if you
0:19:48 say that you love allah
0:19:49 allah does not look at you so that
0:19:51 doesn't regard your love for him unless
0:19:52 you follow the prophet salallahu he's
0:19:54 commanding you to follow his messenger
0:19:56 right so it's conditional that in order
0:19:58 to be loved by allah
0:20:00 that you have to
0:20:01 follow the messenger absolutely he says
0:20:04 yeah yeah okay good so that's very clear
0:20:06 so how would you argue this point
0:20:08 against someone who does not believe in
0:20:10 the sunnah
0:20:12 well the
0:20:13 following the messenger is the sunnah
0:20:15 right so how do you follow the messenger
0:20:17 without the sunnah exactly this is the
0:20:19 question that remains right how do we
0:20:21 follow the messenger without someone i
0:20:22 think it's a very good way to start us
0:20:24 off is there any um other things that
0:20:26 you've got here guys
0:20:27 the quran is just full of like man
0:20:30 so this lie in many places in the quran
0:20:33 so clearly all these things stating they
0:20:35 should obey the messenger
0:20:36 yes
0:20:39 for example
0:20:52 so this is whoever obeys allah and his
0:20:54 messenger then they are with the good
0:20:56 people and the you know the the martyrs
0:20:59 and the
0:21:00 righteous ones and uh and so on
0:21:03 it's clearly here there's an obligation
0:21:05 to follow
0:21:07 the messenger what else have you got
0:21:10 um i think also certainly there's like a
0:21:13 few i i think it's like six ayah yeah um
0:21:16 which i think kind of uh covers this
0:21:18 well and also like they could you know
0:21:19 perhaps be talking about these quran
0:21:21 only people
0:21:22 um so like it mentions you know you
0:21:24 believe obey allah and the messenger and
0:21:26 those authority amongst you and if you
0:21:28 differ amongst anything amongst
0:21:29 yourselves they refer to allah and his
0:21:31 messenger if you believe in allah and in
0:21:33 the last day that is better for you and
0:21:34 more suitable for the final
0:21:36 determination and then you know the next
0:21:38 ayah is also very interesting because it
0:21:39 mentions
0:21:40 you know have you seen those hypocrites
0:21:41 who claim that they believe in that
0:21:43 which has been sent down to you and that
0:21:45 which was sent before you and they wish
0:21:46 to go
0:21:47 for judgment um to you know tarot while
0:21:51 they have been ordained to reject them
0:21:52 but shaytaan wishes to lead them far
0:21:54 astray and when they said to them
0:21:56 come to allah and come to what allah has
0:21:58 sent down unto the messenger sallallahu
0:22:01 you will see the hypocrites turn away
0:22:03 from you with a perversion
0:22:05 um how then when a kashmir before them
0:22:07 because of what their hands have sent
0:22:08 forth they come to you swearing by allah
0:22:10 we meant no more than good will and
0:22:12 conciliation the hypocrites are those
0:22:15 whom allah knows what is in their hearts
0:22:16 to turn aside from them but um do not
0:22:19 punish them but admonish them and speak
0:22:20 to them an effective word to believe in
0:22:21 allah and worship and obey him
0:22:23 um to reach their inner selves we sent
0:22:25 them a messenger but to be obeyed by
0:22:26 allah's permission
0:22:28 if they the hypocrites when they had
0:22:30 been unjust themselves had come to you
0:22:31 and begged allah's forgiveness the
0:22:33 messenger had begged for forgiveness for
0:22:34 them indeed they would have found allah
0:22:37 most forgiven the most merciful but no
0:22:39 by oh lord they can have no faith until
0:22:42 they make you you know the prophet
0:22:43 salallahu sallam a judge in all matters
0:22:45 between them and fight them find in
0:22:47 themselves no resistance against your
0:22:49 decisions and accept them with full
0:22:51 submission a beautiful a
0:22:58 first one you mentioned that if you
0:22:59 differ upon something
0:23:01 then bring it to allah and the messenger
0:23:04 uh and that you haven't sent a messenger
0:23:08 except that he will be obeyed by the
0:23:10 permission of allah
0:23:11 you know and uh
0:23:15 this is actually the only place in the
0:23:16 quran allah swears by himself
0:23:20 i don't know if you know this this is
0:23:21 the only place in the quran
0:23:23 where allah is by himself
0:23:28 by your lord they don't believe
0:23:33 until they make you a judge between that
0:23:35 which they're in dispute about
0:23:37 you
0:23:39 where you say
0:23:41 and then they don't find any disturbance
0:23:43 or any kind of constraint
0:23:46 for what you have judged
0:23:47 and they are in full submission to what
0:23:49 you have judged but the question remains
0:23:51 how can you how can you even do that
0:23:53 if the only obligation was to follow the
0:23:55 quran
0:23:58 you know and maybe the response will be
0:24:00 well when the time or the prophet was
0:24:02 alive
0:24:03 you have to follow him as well
0:24:04 but the question will be
0:24:05 what in the quran indicates that when
0:24:07 the prophet dies
0:24:08 that one should stop following him
0:24:11 because if someone says well you know
0:24:14 that was when he was alive
0:24:16 so then the question remains how is it
0:24:19 or what it what indicates in the quran
0:24:21 that when he when the prophet dies
0:24:25 that
0:24:27 he should stop being followed
0:24:30 any other verses
0:24:40 so you could even say this applicable to
0:24:42 like other things like that you don't
0:24:43 know about not just the prophet so just
0:24:45 the indication they should ask other
0:24:46 people essentially
0:24:48 yeah so in order to know so guidance
0:24:50 guidance it extends outside of the quran
0:24:57 comes twice in the quran
0:25:02 but there is a verse in surah nahal
0:25:04 which is very important on this matter
0:25:05 does anyone know where it is talking
0:25:08 about
0:25:11 talking about this matter in particular
0:25:14 about following the sunnah
0:25:18 should i give you i'll give you some
0:25:19 some moments to look for it and someone
0:25:21 present for me or for all of us a
0:25:23 translation of the verse
0:25:26 okay i'll give you two minutes look for
0:25:27 that because this is one of the key
0:25:28 verses actually
0:25:35 no
0:25:38 i've given you right now
0:25:47 this is the importance of having an
0:25:50 awareness of the quran
0:25:53 the importance
0:25:54 yeah and these are very important things
0:25:58 which we always we we will need to kind
0:26:01 of be able to
0:26:03 elaborate upon
0:26:05 in dawa
0:26:07 because this is a very key key issue
0:26:10 you got it
0:26:12 oh are you looking at me i thought you
0:26:13 had something there
0:26:18 yeah it was a bit unrelated here right
0:26:20 okay
0:26:21 okay
0:26:23 what does the quran is believe that the
0:26:24 role of the prophet was was it only to
0:26:26 spread the revelation
0:26:27 we're going to speak to jake
0:26:30 you got it okay perfect
0:26:32 one of the brothers who was a qurani
0:26:34 he's going to tell us his experiences
0:26:36 with them i'm going to call him in about
0:26:38 five minutes
0:26:39 yeah uh it's verse 44. i've only got the
0:26:42 translation to me so
0:26:44 it says what translates as we sent we
0:26:46 sent them with clear proofs and divine
0:26:48 books
0:26:49 and we have sent down to you the
0:26:50 reminder so that you may explain to
0:26:52 people what has been revealed for them
0:26:54 and perhaps they will reflect okay this
0:26:56 is a very very very very important verse
0:26:59 potentially the most important on this
0:27:00 matter
0:27:02 can you say one more time jerry please
0:27:04 i'll have to open it back up can you see
0:27:06 yeah well
0:27:07 who remembers the reference
0:27:09 chapter 16 verse 44.
0:27:12 the one i said
0:27:14 [Laughter]
0:27:16 so
0:27:17 it says we sent them a clear proofs and
0:27:19 divine books and we have sent down to
0:27:21 you the reminder so that you may explain
0:27:23 to people what has been revealed for
0:27:25 them and perhaps they will reflect so
0:27:27 here yes authority is given to the
0:27:29 prophet salallahu tafsir basically isn't
0:27:31 it
0:27:33 his tafsir is outside of the quran then
0:27:35 obviously we need something outside of
0:27:37 the quran beautiful beautiful beautiful
0:27:39 beautiful i'll tell you something guys
0:27:40 yeah these are all fantastic
0:27:43 and excellent and important things to
0:27:45 say and i'll tell you one thing
0:27:46 additionally
0:27:47 that people say which any lay person can
0:27:49 say any lay person can say
0:27:52 okay
0:27:53 um we have five pillars of islam
0:27:56 we have five pillars of islam and all
0:27:57 five pillars of islam are mentioned in
0:27:58 the quran correct
0:28:00 they have six pillars of iman which is a
0:28:02 faith and all six pillars of iman are
0:28:04 mentioned in the quran correct okay
0:28:07 but the
0:28:08 the details on the five pillars of islam
0:28:12 for example if someone wants to pray
0:28:15 where are these details found
0:28:17 are they found the quran
0:28:20 some of
0:28:21 some of those details are from the quran
0:28:23 but are the exact rakaas
0:28:26 how many times you go up and how many
0:28:27 times none of that is found in the quran
0:28:31 none of that is found in the quran
0:28:34 so allah is telling us to do things in
0:28:35 the quran pray fast go hajj
0:28:39 but then we don't know how to do any of
0:28:41 that unless
0:28:42 we have an outside explanation
0:28:44 and the brother already showed us that
0:28:46 this ayah
0:28:47 shows you with the importance of an
0:28:49 outside expression the authority as he
0:28:50 put it rightly of the prophet to give
0:28:52 that outside expression
0:28:55 in fact yeah notre dame he said this in
0:28:57 a very beautiful way
0:28:59 he said that the quran is like the
0:29:00 constitution
0:29:02 and the hadith or the sahih hadith are
0:29:04 like the laws
0:29:06 you know how you have in a country you
0:29:07 have the constitution
0:29:09 you know like the codified constitution
0:29:11 and then outside of that you have older
0:29:13 laws this is a very good way of putting
0:29:14 it
0:29:16 because you can't really know the full
0:29:18 legal picture
0:29:20 by just looking at the constitution
0:29:24 you can be a constitutional lawyer
0:29:26 but you will not be a good one if you
0:29:28 don't know the laws
0:29:31 you know and that that is the case uh
0:29:32 with the quran and the sunnah i think is
0:29:34 a good tashbee
0:29:36 i'll tell you one thing though these are
0:29:38 all kind of stock arguments
0:29:41 i had discussion with quite unknown
0:29:42 people many times
0:29:45 and two things i brought up which
0:29:47 because they expect all of what we've
0:29:48 just said now because they've heard it
0:29:50 so much because any lay person can say
0:29:51 it to them
0:29:53 so i've said two things to them that has
0:29:54 really thrown them like they had no idea
0:29:57 how to answer it
0:29:58 you can find this online you know i'm
0:29:59 not making this i'm not bragging here
0:30:01 you know
0:30:03 one of them
0:30:04 is in chapter 33 of the quran
0:30:09 because you know in the quran many times
0:30:10 it says
0:30:13 which we is by the way it's also hebrew
0:30:15 word
0:30:16 which means the wisdom right and most
0:30:18 profession most exegetes say this is
0:30:20 talking about the sunnah the hikmas or
0:30:22 the quran
0:30:24 yeah and we gave the prophet you know
0:30:26 the book and the hikmah or the
0:30:30 so we ask so this is the usual debate we
0:30:32 say okay well this is the quran and this
0:30:34 is the heckman is the wisdom that allah
0:30:36 has given to the prophet muhammad
0:30:38 they say no this is nonsense they say
0:30:39 this is your interpretation you're
0:30:41 superimposing your understanding
0:30:44 there is one verse in the quran where
0:30:46 allah is speaking to the wives of the
0:30:47 prophet
0:31:00 what in your houses
0:31:14 the verses of god meaning the quran
0:31:19 so there are two things being recited
0:31:20 here
0:31:21 these are these are two separate
0:31:22 entities you have the quran
0:31:24 and you have the hikmah and it can't be
0:31:26 the same thing because a lot of them
0:31:28 will say the hikmah is the quran
0:31:30 itself
0:31:31 but how could it be when both are being
0:31:32 recited and in arabic they say
0:31:40 that conjunction like the word and is a
0:31:42 conjunction in english yeah
0:31:44 conjunction necessitates differentiation
0:31:49 this is a very well known arabic
0:31:51 principle yeah so if you have two things
0:31:53 ayatollah ayatullah yeah which is the
0:31:56 ayat of the verses of god and the hikmah
0:31:58 and there's a well in between them that
0:32:00 must mean two different things
0:32:02 which can be recited
0:32:04 interestingly meaning it can be
0:32:05 mentioned by mouth
0:32:09 and that allah is telling the wives of
0:32:11 the prophet to
0:32:12 mention both not just one
0:32:14 so what is this
0:32:19 and i will say like this he has no
0:32:22 response to that whatsoever so that's
0:32:24 one thing
0:32:25 the other thing is the
0:32:27 recently i've done this and i thought it
0:32:28 was a creative argument and i i turned
0:32:30 that to be correct
0:32:31 is the argument of the
0:32:34 we know that some we went through this
0:32:35 with the preservation thing we have
0:32:37 something you know
0:32:39 the quran
0:32:48 so you'll find some on select words
0:32:50 about 700 to be exact in the quran which
0:32:53 is about 77 000 words you can read it in
0:32:55 more than one way
0:32:57 how would you explain that
0:32:58 without this hadith you would have to
0:33:00 say there's been some kind of
0:33:01 manipulation
0:33:04 so when you put that to them what do you
0:33:05 accept medical medic
0:33:07 and whatever you choose
0:33:08 the other one that you reject
0:33:10 what's your mechanism of rejection
0:33:13 if they don't have the ahref as a
0:33:14 mechanism then they're admitting
0:33:16 omission or insurgent which is outside
0:33:18 of the hives of allah with the
0:33:20 protection of allah and the quran itself
0:33:21 says
0:33:24 we have sent down the book and we will
0:33:26 preserve it
0:33:28 so
0:33:29 it's ironic when you disbelieve in the
0:33:30 quran
0:33:31 when you disbelieve in the hadith you
0:33:33 end up just believing the quran
0:33:37 because they work in symbiotic
0:33:38 relationship with one another
0:33:40 they were they they work in symbiosic
0:33:42 relationship and the way the quran has
0:33:44 been revealed and protected is the same
0:33:46 way the hadith has been protected by
0:33:48 sanat
0:33:50 so on a historical level i can let's put
0:33:52 away all these discussions
0:33:55 there are some hadith with with even
0:33:57 more voracious
0:33:58 there i even say asani than the quran
0:34:00 itself
0:34:02 for example ironically
0:34:04 the hadith says
0:34:08 narrated by 40 individuals sahabah
0:34:12 whoever lies about me intentionally the
0:34:14 prophet said whoever lies about me
0:34:15 intentionally let him prepare his seat
0:34:16 in the hellfire
0:34:18 being narrated by 40 individuals
0:34:20 4-0
0:34:22 some even say 120
0:34:26 depending on who's narrating about at
0:34:28 least 40.
0:34:29 this hadith is rock-solid
0:34:32 it's a piece of historical
0:34:34 uh it's a marvel of historical uh
0:34:37 preservation
0:34:39 it's a magnificent piece we know the
0:34:41 prophet said that
0:34:43 he surely said that that's it
0:34:46 so
0:34:47 on what basis do we say he didn't
0:34:50 um you'd have to make some kind of a
0:34:52 foolish argument
0:34:54 now what i want you to do with the
0:34:55 person next to you is considering all
0:34:57 that i've said i want you to think about
0:34:59 how
0:35:01 a person who is a quran alone will make
0:35:04 their strongest argument
0:35:06 and how they will play devil's advocate
0:35:08 so i'll give you three minutes
0:35:09 we've put out there really the simple
0:35:12 arguments but the very cutthroat and
0:35:14 undercutting arguments i would say about
0:35:16 the quran and the hadith
0:35:18 so the task is now put yourself in their
0:35:20 shoes
0:35:22 what would you say back to this okay
0:35:24 i'll give you three to five minutes and
0:35:25 in that time i'm gonna be calling jake
0:35:27 yeah
0:35:31 all right now um so hopefully you've had
0:35:33 time to think about it let's um get some
0:35:36 feedback from the participants here
0:35:39 what are
0:35:40 some of the things
0:35:42 that you think they would say
0:35:45 as their strongest arguments
0:35:48 yeah i'm not sure if this is an actual
0:35:50 position of theirs but i think they
0:35:51 could argue that uh we're not saying the
0:35:54 prophet's
0:35:55 commands or words are useless but uh it
0:35:57 has uh it's not uh infallible
0:36:00 so uh so it's less authoritative than
0:36:04 what the students would uh argue okay
0:36:06 but even that doesn't that doesn't
0:36:08 that's not another card for our position
0:36:10 so even if they said that yeah it
0:36:11 wouldn't mean anything but but um yeah
0:36:14 it's not under our position but they
0:36:15 could make sense of that
0:36:17 so so let's focus on the undercut for
0:36:19 opposition what do you think they would
0:36:20 say because remember their position is
0:36:21 very clear that you don't need the sun
0:36:22 at all it's not that oh you know the
0:36:24 sunnah is valuable but it's not as
0:36:25 valuable as you guys think it is
0:36:27 if that's a soft position
0:36:29 their position is stronger than that
0:36:30 their position is the sunnah is not even
0:36:32 required in the first place and they go
0:36:33 further than that in fact some of them
0:36:35 as jake will tell us when his his time
0:36:36 to he was part of the he was ahead
0:36:38 actually or a head body not maybe but he
0:36:40 can tell us where he was he was a higher
0:36:42 up one of the top men of that
0:36:43 organization
0:36:45 you know uh he'll tell us what kind of
0:36:46 things he used to say go ahead
0:36:48 i'm not really sure but there's one um
0:36:52 non-muslim scholars orientalist guy
0:36:54 called shaqt and he said that the sunnah
0:36:56 was invented by imam shafi to the whole
0:36:58 song
0:37:00 he said the whole sunnah was created by
0:37:02 imam shafi because
0:37:03 as a legislative
0:37:05 source yeah yeah um
0:37:08 they're gonna say that they're gonna say
0:37:09 something like it was all made up i do
0:37:11 think i don't know if once again we can
0:37:12 ask jake whether to actually look at
0:37:14 because the scene is one of the most for
0:37:16 them at least impressive orientalists
0:37:19 and you know it's a very
0:37:21 well known understanding that and this
0:37:23 you should actually know this guy's name
0:37:25 because in or in academic circles he's
0:37:27 actually seen as a big shot even he's
0:37:29 not alive now but he was seen as a big
0:37:31 shot
0:37:33 and
0:37:34 he was making these kinds of arguments
0:37:35 that the sunnah was an imposition of the
0:37:37 tabi and the or that by tepang kind of
0:37:39 thing right and that it was something
0:37:41 which was made up in the third century
0:37:42 we heard this kind of thing now in kind
0:37:44 of missionary circles and stuff like
0:37:45 that
0:37:46 uh and that there was a need to kind of
0:37:48 invest or made
0:37:51 kind of influences and stuff like that
0:37:53 yeah you should know his theories and i
0:37:55 think there may be a scope for
0:37:57 or maybe they are influenced by these
0:37:59 orientalists it's possible it's possible
0:38:03 anything uh else yeah i'd say
0:38:05 perhaps um a counter argument to the uh
0:38:08 before we get to counter arguments okay
0:38:10 let's keep with the arguments first
0:38:12 what could they say back
0:38:14 because i'll be honest with you i've
0:38:15 never met a formidable formidable
0:38:16 opponent
0:38:18 a lot of them come to the park and you
0:38:20 know they're not from they're actually
0:38:21 not formidable
0:38:22 some of them may be on the spectrum in
0:38:23 fact and i'm not saying that as a
0:38:25 disrespect you know they might be on
0:38:26 spectrum i don't know they seem like
0:38:30 they were just not um coherent
0:38:33 they were not coherent whatever they
0:38:34 were saying was nonsense
0:38:36 um
0:38:37 anyways anything else
0:38:39 what could they say is the question
0:38:42 there is one verse they use i don't say
0:38:44 they can make a strong argument with it
0:38:46 but they use it quite often it's uh let
0:38:48 me pull it up here
0:38:58 that's probably the most consistent
0:39:00 thing i've heard from them yeah yeah so
0:39:01 they'll say you know
0:39:05 and i think this is basically the
0:39:06 fallacy of convocation right
0:39:08 the fallacy of equivocation as we've
0:39:10 kind of covered quite a lot in this
0:39:12 session or these sessions
0:39:14 is when you say that well you use the
0:39:16 same word hadith
0:39:19 you know
0:39:20 or in this case you should say the
0:39:21 doctor the doctor he's a good doctor
0:39:23 he's a professor or he's a lecturer
0:39:25 oh i need i need someone to help me or
0:39:28 someone's dying doctors and the
0:39:29 professor comes in and starts
0:39:31 trying to administer cpr this is not the
0:39:33 doctor that was intended
0:39:35 you're equivocating the use of the word
0:39:37 doctor
0:39:38 you know in this case but in that case
0:39:40 as well
0:39:40 they're saying
0:39:44 this is not this is not an evidence of
0:39:46 anything it doesn't say that you should
0:39:47 not believe in hadith
0:39:50 this is it's not saying you should not
0:39:52 there's there's nothing in the language
0:39:53 or the syntax or the structure of that
0:39:55 sentence in the quran
0:39:57 that is saying this is the only thing
0:39:59 that you have to believe in
0:40:02 is such a misapplied there is actually
0:40:05 no argument to be made here you can't
0:40:07 use it as an argument it's saying what
0:40:09 would so this is a quran this is a
0:40:10 hadith that is referring to
0:40:12 because the quran the hadith has been
0:40:14 referred to hadith means something which
0:40:15 is spoken
0:40:17 something which is said okay
0:40:21 they say you know he spoke to me or he i
0:40:23 heard from this person
0:40:26 the quran is from that perspective is
0:40:27 saying that after this
0:40:30 quran has been presented what
0:40:32 speech will you believe in if not this
0:40:35 kind of speech
0:40:38 it's not saying don't believe in any
0:40:39 other speech it simply does not even say
0:40:41 that
0:40:42 you see what i mean
0:40:44 it doesn't say
0:40:46 hadith
0:40:47 you know whatever you know
0:40:49 it's not an argument yeah
0:40:52 um
0:40:54 another argument you often hear is that
0:40:56 uh there are there are hadith which seem
0:40:59 to contradict the quran
0:41:00 um so yeah because obviously the quran
0:41:03 is like infallible like you know there's
0:41:04 no argument um you know no one speaks
0:41:07 the quran so therefore when we see the
0:41:09 hadith uh you know it cannot construct
0:41:11 the quran um and you know things like
0:41:13 abrogation like
0:41:14 yeah for example that you can't accept
0:41:16 hadith that you know abrogates or
0:41:17 contradicts the quran from the sense
0:41:18 right so there's two issues here the the
0:41:20 one about the hadith um sorry the
0:41:22 contribution of quran
0:41:25 if there's a situation where the hadith
0:41:27 contradicts your quran even if the sahih
0:41:29 is usually actually rejected
0:41:31 and there are examples of this like for
0:41:33 example the famous hadith
0:41:34 in muslim
0:41:36 which is it has a sanat which is sahih
0:41:39 but it's been narrated by
0:41:41 one of the people that actually used to
0:41:42 be at qatar before
0:41:45 and i'm not sure if you've seen this
0:41:46 hadith but it's like on monday the trees
0:41:48 were created on tuesday that you know
0:41:50 that kind of thing on friday was created
0:41:52 from dust
0:41:54 imam bukhari himself he rejects his
0:41:56 hadith
0:41:57 rejects his hadith and they reject on
0:41:59 the basis
0:42:08 he was a jew he may very well have been
0:42:10 influenced by the genesis narratives or
0:42:12 whatever you know
0:42:14 a lot of people that came from uh
0:42:15 previous religions they can influence
0:42:17 the religion so even though the the
0:42:19 chain is actually sound the people are
0:42:22 you know uh
0:42:24 that they have they're fine memories
0:42:25 okay but there's some other issues
0:42:27 called
0:42:28 hidden defects of the hadith and there's
0:42:30 some methane or
0:42:32 in the text of the hadith contradictions
0:42:34 with the quran and that's allah in and
0:42:36 of itself
0:42:37 so uh for that reason actually
0:42:40 it's not we don't have a problem in
0:42:42 saying we do believe the quran
0:42:44 supreme
0:42:45 the other issue of obligation
0:42:48 i'm not sure if i would say the majority
0:42:49 but it seems at least the majority
0:42:51 it could be
0:42:52 say that there's no abrogation of the
0:42:54 son of the quran
0:42:55 they so that position is a fine position
0:42:58 the position of
0:43:00 and we're not going to go into a deep
0:43:01 discussion of this but the position of
0:43:03 the sunnah does not abrogate the quran
0:43:07 although there are some people who argue
0:43:08 that it does
0:43:10 okay
0:43:11 but the majority i would say say that
0:43:13 the sunnah cannot or does not
0:43:16 uh abrogate the quran or the quran
0:43:18 abrogates itself
0:43:21 and they cannot regret the son of but
0:43:22 the sunnah cannot bring the quran this
0:43:24 is the majority opinion so if they have
0:43:26 that position it's a very mainstream
0:43:27 normative position anyway it's not it's
0:43:29 not a an issue and according to the
0:43:31 syothi
0:43:33 there's only 20 verses of abrogation in
0:43:35 the quran
0:43:37 anyway we're not talking about like you
0:43:38 know of 6200 6236 once again do the math
0:43:41 20 out of 6 000 as well i don't know you
0:43:44 know not even one percent
0:43:46 so we're talking about a very small
0:43:48 percentage of the quran which is has
0:43:50 been abrogated or things have been
0:43:51 abrogated
0:43:52 and the majority of scholars say that
0:43:55 the sunnah cannot abrogate the quran so
0:43:57 that we can circumnavigate i mean that's
0:43:59 not it's a non-issue it does nothing for
0:44:00 them it's not it's not
0:44:02 a lone argument this is a argument
0:44:08 yes anything else they could say
0:44:10 remember
0:44:11 uh follow god and uh follow the quran
0:44:14 and the prophet uh so there are some who
0:44:16 argue that uh it's only limited to the
0:44:18 time of the prophet you said there's no
0:44:19 uh evidences suggest that
0:44:21 it's not present it's not applicable for
0:44:23 us as well yeah what is the point of the
0:44:24 hadith where the prophet said uh do not
0:44:26 write down my hadees
0:44:28 and then they do the conjunction in
0:44:30 conjunction with that verse and say this
0:44:31 shows that the the the
0:44:33 hadith is basically only for the time of
0:44:35 the sahaja yoga that's a good question i
0:44:36 mean first and foremost if they point to
0:44:38 hadith i see your your your
0:44:40 yeah
0:44:41 your position from your own uh yeah yeah
0:44:42 no problem i would say that it's okay
0:44:44 fine i'll say first and foremost are we
0:44:46 looking at heath or not right but anyway
0:44:47 no problem
0:44:48 um let's look at hadees in the beginning
0:44:50 we know in mecca period the meccan
0:44:52 period the prophet sallam forbade
0:44:56 the people from writing his hadith is
0:44:58 that's true
0:44:59 and the reason why it's very clear is
0:45:01 because if if people were writing down
0:45:03 two things the hadith and the quran
0:45:05 there could be a mix-up
0:45:07 so to
0:45:08 keep the quran very pure
0:45:10 or the the narrative of the quran very
0:45:12 pure
0:45:12 that was the case but if we're looking
0:45:14 at the hadith
0:45:16 we know also that the prophet sallam he
0:45:19 said afterwards he told the people to
0:45:21 write
0:45:23 and the evidence of that is in buhari
0:45:24 where ibn abhishek you know there's a
0:45:26 person it's called
0:45:28 there's a person called ibn abisha
0:45:30 there was something the prophet was
0:45:32 saying
0:45:32 and the prophets are salami told them
0:45:34 right for ibn
0:45:36 so there were so so clearly there wasn't
0:45:38 if you want abrogation
0:45:40 clearly there was a there was a
0:45:41 different attitude why because it had
0:45:43 been established the quran had been
0:45:45 written the sahaba had been many we are
0:45:47 not in a situation of weakness there
0:45:49 were so many environmental factors which
0:45:51 have changed which no longer is there a
0:45:53 requirement not to write the hadith and
0:45:56 don't forget also that in the beginning
0:45:57 in the meccan period there was not that
0:45:59 many commandments
0:46:01 and the famous
0:46:05 means a saying of a sahaba companion so
0:46:08 the famous author of
0:46:10 where she said that had the first things
0:46:12 been revealed
0:46:13 you know don't do zina or don't drink
0:46:15 alcohol that no one would have believed
0:46:16 in it that's why we needed to have kind
0:46:18 of like the
0:46:19 sorry the heaven and hell verses come
0:46:20 first
0:46:22 so it made sense not to even have
0:46:24 command like heavy commandments in the
0:46:26 beginning of islam because
0:46:28 people by their nature it's very
0:46:30 difficult to get into a system 100
0:46:31 percent first becoming a muslim and now
0:46:33 you know you're already being tortured
0:46:35 and boycotted in addition to that now
0:46:36 you have to pray five times a day and
0:46:38 this should be 2.5 of your wealth and
0:46:40 maybe uh 30 days of ramallah it's pretty
0:46:43 taxing
0:46:44 so in the beginning of islam we didn't
0:46:46 have that many commands there was less
0:46:47 of a need and a necessity for there to
0:46:49 be written hadith
0:46:51 but then afterwards if we're looking and
0:46:52 consulting the hadith which
0:46:54 clearly the prophet um he changed the
0:46:57 attitude and the command
0:46:59 when the quran when the preservation of
0:47:01 the quran people got into a system of
0:47:02 how to write the quran to memorize it to
0:47:04 understand it to read in the prayers
0:47:06 that makes perfect sense
0:47:08 you know so if they use this it's once
0:47:10 again this is it's a segmented type of
0:47:12 evidence-making you take one bit and you
0:47:14 leave another bit we say no but you have
0:47:16 to be aware of these hadith which are
0:47:18 clear about writing like this is a good
0:47:20 one here of ibn bishop but there are
0:47:22 others
0:47:23 yes um another common argument which
0:47:26 i've heard is the ayah um
0:47:29 uh which mentions that we have sent down
0:47:30 this um
0:47:32 book as a tibian
0:47:34 which contains everything within it of
0:47:36 guidance and mercy my good talents for
0:47:38 those who submit truth so they usually
0:47:40 use this as evidence to say that the
0:47:41 quran like it contains everything that
0:47:43 you need so there's no need to go
0:47:45 outside of the quran
0:47:46 and another verse which i think is
0:47:47 probably clearer in this regard is
0:47:49 method
0:47:51 that we haven't left out anything in
0:47:52 this book
0:47:53 now first and foremost
0:47:55 uh this ayah maharaja kitab and shay
0:47:58 what is meant by this kitab is it
0:48:00 talking about the quran
0:48:02 so there's a difference of opinion here
0:48:04 number one
0:48:05 number two we all really know from the
0:48:07 quranic discourses and from the hadith
0:48:09 discourses but even if they don't take
0:48:11 the hadith verses right
0:48:12 that sometimes you can have what is
0:48:14 referred to as
0:48:19 or the thing which is generic in its
0:48:21 description which
0:48:22 means something specific
0:48:24 so that's another thing like
0:48:28 you know that the wind destroys
0:48:29 everything with the command of allah
0:48:31 you know it's a also the example
0:48:33 everyone uses it
0:48:34 so when you see kul and all these kind
0:48:36 of generic terms it doesn't mean every
0:48:37 single thing
0:48:39 that's why a lot of scholars when this
0:48:40 this verse matha rotten effect and shay
0:48:42 we haven't left anything from this book
0:48:45 they say
0:48:46 almost
0:48:48 or the things which are generic not the
0:48:49 specific things so going back to
0:48:51 constitutional example the constitution
0:48:53 actually as albani says you know it's
0:48:56 like the constitution
0:48:57 it
0:48:58 lays out the main things
0:49:01 but then you've got these subsidiary
0:49:02 things
0:49:03 which are you know
0:49:06 because think about it if you understood
0:49:08 this verse
0:49:10 on prima facie value
0:49:12 then there would be a contradiction with
0:49:14 the reality because a quran doesn't it
0:49:16 doesn't have physics in there
0:49:17 doesn't have quantum mechanics
0:49:19 doesn't have medicine
0:49:21 so we haven't left out anything in this
0:49:22 book okay there's no there's no zoology
0:49:24 in there oh therefore the quran is wrong
0:49:26 then if you understand that verse like
0:49:27 that then
0:49:28 you've misunderstood the quran it's
0:49:30 talking about in generic terms there are
0:49:31 things that we have to know
0:49:33 and it would make the quran it's like we
0:49:35 said before it would make some of its
0:49:37 commandments unintelligible
0:49:40 and go and ask the people of knowledge
0:49:41 why did you need to ask anybody all the
0:49:43 information should be in the quran right
0:49:45 but the quran is telling you go and ask
0:49:47 someone else
0:50:02 there are people that can do simba which
0:50:04 is basically a kind of exegesis or
0:50:06 hermeneutical approach where you're
0:50:07 bringing out
0:50:09 the the the commandments
0:50:12 so who is the who are these people
0:50:15 yes
0:50:18 who are they
0:50:19 there are people who have the ability to
0:50:21 make extraction to extract but they've
0:50:23 been given authority by allah
0:50:25 but they are not in the they are not the
0:50:26 quran itself
0:50:28 you see so there are lots of verses like
0:50:30 that um
0:50:31 now i want to speak to jake because he
0:50:33 was actually part of this movement in
0:50:34 america uh in fact he's one of the top
0:50:36 men there in that movement being
0:50:38 elevated
0:50:39 and he's he was with us as many of you
0:50:41 know uh he graced us with his presence
0:50:43 and came and done many uh sessions we
0:50:45 want him to come over again he came to
0:50:47 speak his corner but tell us jake uh we
0:50:49 can hear you
0:50:50 we put your loudspeaker tell us your
0:50:52 experiences with this group some of the
0:50:54 arguments that they put forward
0:50:58 yes
0:51:00 thanks for inviting me guys
0:51:04 i couldn't i couldn't honestly i
0:51:06 couldn't hear much of what was said from
0:51:08 the other brothers i heard certain
0:51:09 verses being mentioned so apologize if i
0:51:13 repeat anything that was already said
0:51:15 um but yeah i was a quite honest for for
0:51:18 many years so i kind of know a lot of
0:51:20 the arguments inside and out so let me
0:51:22 just share a couple of them
0:51:25 one of the points that they'll bring up
0:51:26 is the fact that the quran declares
0:51:30 itself to be uh tafsil
0:51:33 that it's a detailed explanation of all
0:51:35 things you can find this in the quran
0:51:37 chapter 12 verse 11.
0:51:40 you can also find in
0:51:41 chapter 16 verse 89 where it mentions
0:51:44 that the quran is an explanation of
0:51:47 everything that it clarifies everything
0:51:49 as well
0:51:50 and so they use these type of verses to
0:51:53 say well if the quran is a detailed
0:51:55 explanation of everything
0:51:58 and that it's a clarification of
0:52:00 everything that it sort of explains
0:52:02 everything then we don't need anything
0:52:04 else um and there are
0:52:07 several verses but those are just two
0:52:09 that they use to try to uh make this
0:52:12 argument
0:52:13 not only that
0:52:15 the the verse that was mentioned earlier
0:52:17 uh quran 45 verse 6 where it says in
0:52:20 what hadith after allah and his ayat
0:52:23 will you trust and what you believe i
0:52:25 think you've already addressed that but
0:52:26 that's also a popular verse that they
0:52:28 use
0:52:29 and then
0:52:31 there are other verses uh for example in
0:52:34 the quran chapter 5 verses 15 and 16
0:52:37 where it explicitly states that the
0:52:39 quran
0:52:41 uh that with it be he singular
0:52:43 allah
0:52:46 people out of darkness into light
0:52:49 and so
0:52:50 again the question is well if the quran
0:52:52 is what allah subhanahu wa ta'ala alone
0:52:55 is guiding you or using to guide people
0:52:57 out of darkness to light we don't really
0:52:59 need anything because
0:53:01 when muslims pray five times a day we
0:53:03 say
0:53:06 well in this verse it says that the
0:53:07 quran is what guides to
0:53:10 the uh
0:53:12 the straight path
0:53:13 and then you have an explanation in the
0:53:15 quran itself and i'm not trying not to
0:53:17 pile too many things on because i want
0:53:19 to be fair although i think
0:53:21 quite obviously that the hadith rejecter
0:53:24 position is false
0:53:26 i want to be um you know fair to
0:53:28 represent them accurately so i'm giving
0:53:30 at least a couple arguments
0:53:32 uh you also find in the quran in chapter
0:53:35 6 verses 151 to 153
0:53:38 it gives an explanation of what is
0:53:41 deemed haram or or what people should
0:53:43 not do and what they should do uh being
0:53:46 good to parents uh staying away from
0:53:48 from worshiping other than allah all
0:53:50 these things mentioned and then in verse
0:53:52 153
0:53:54 it says and this is my uh straight path
0:53:57 so follow it and don't follow other ways
0:53:59 so again we see that the quran
0:54:02 is what guides uh to the straight path
0:54:04 and if that's what muslims are looking
0:54:06 for we also see that in the quran itself
0:54:08 it tells you what that straight path is
0:54:11 there's no need for going outside the
0:54:13 quran we have everything that we need
0:54:15 here
0:54:16 um you know and there are other verses
0:54:18 that talk about the quran and islam the
0:54:20 complete perfect
0:54:22 fully detailed and that allah subhanawat
0:54:25 alone is the guide um and even as sunnis
0:54:29 of course we believe this but they
0:54:31 slightly have a misconception about this
0:54:33 they think that if you're going to other
0:54:35 sources besides the quran then you're
0:54:38 you're going directly against the verses
0:54:40 and i'll just give one last verse which
0:54:42 they mentioned which is in quran chapter
0:54:45 6 verse 114
0:54:47 where it says i'll just read this one
0:54:49 then is it other than allah i should
0:54:51 seek as a judge while it is he who has
0:54:54 revealed to you the book the quran
0:54:57 explained in detail
0:54:59 and those to whom we previously gave the
0:55:01 scripture know that it is sent down from
0:55:03 your lord
0:55:04 in truth so never be among the doubters
0:55:07 and so the argument is this is that
0:55:09 instead of asking a rhetorical question
0:55:11 that i don't need to seek a judge other
0:55:13 than allah and what is uh being
0:55:16 conflated with allah being a judge in
0:55:19 this verse is the fact that he's
0:55:21 revealed to you what the quran so i
0:55:23 don't need anything else if you can go
0:55:25 outside the quran you're seeking a judge
0:55:27 other than allah himself and so you're
0:55:30 in violation of this
0:55:32 verse
0:55:32 so these are some of the arguments i
0:55:34 don't want to pile too much on you guys
0:55:36 but um the main points have to do with
0:55:39 the quran being sufficient as a guide uh
0:55:42 to the straight path
0:55:44 and also the fact that it's claimed to
0:55:46 be uh tafsilli coulish that it details
0:55:49 everything and that it clarifies
0:55:51 everything um so yeah before we go to
0:55:55 refuting any of those points i'll just
0:55:56 allow you guys to come in and share your
0:55:58 thoughts on what i've said thank you so
0:56:00 much jake we'll allow them to think
0:56:02 about it first so you can speak to the
0:56:04 person next to you you've heard uh from
0:56:06 an ex-member you know of the group
0:56:08 themselves
0:56:09 what kind of um things you've you know
0:56:11 they use to be only cliche it's
0:56:14 something which is a clarify
0:56:15 clarification for everything you know
0:56:17 these verses that a lot of them which
0:56:18 you've already covered
0:56:20 speak with the person next year how
0:56:21 would you respond to that kind of
0:56:23 argumentation you've got five minutes
0:56:25 right so coming back to this um you know
0:56:28 they will use verses like you know that
0:56:30 the quran is tibian and
0:56:32 it's a clarification for all the things
0:56:34 uh the things that was
0:56:38 you know and these kinds of verses
0:56:40 uh what would be based on all that has
0:56:42 been said what would be some of your
0:56:43 responses to that
0:56:48 yes well
0:56:49 in the ayah and surah yusuf allah says
0:56:51 about um this is tafsil
0:56:54 he says in the same way
0:56:55 this is the very last time i saw yusuf
0:56:57 okay let me just let's get it let's get
0:56:59 the a.m let's make sure that we got um
0:57:02 muhammad pixels translation yeah yeah
0:57:04 and he and his because allah says
0:57:10 and then goes on to say so allah begins
0:57:11 the ayah by talking about and in these
0:57:13 stories
0:57:14 the stories of the prophets so allah is
0:57:15 not even saying
0:57:17 in this book
0:57:19 so if they claim that everything in this
0:57:20 book and only this book is an
0:57:22 explanation for everything there's
0:57:23 nothing outside this book
0:57:25 that's something they've added on to the
0:57:26 quran
0:57:28 because the law doesn't say that
0:57:29 explicitly
0:57:30 okay yeah he's saying in the stories and
0:57:32 we know the class is the story
0:57:34 exactly yeah okay okay yeah and the
0:57:36 classes of the prophets is the seerah is
0:57:37 the sunnah yeah yeah okay good this is
0:57:40 tough seal by the way not just here yeah
0:57:42 tough scene yeah yeah yeah i got you got
0:57:43 you got you got you
0:57:45 um
0:57:46 so exactly it's a good point because
0:57:47 it's kind of kind of your customer see
0:57:49 him yeah it's in their stories so this
0:57:51 is explaining all the matters relating
0:57:54 to
0:57:55 the stories and the kind of moralities
0:57:56 that we can extract from it's not saying
0:58:01 quantum physics and you know all the
0:58:02 things because once again lead to
0:58:04 absurdities right
0:58:06 uh what else you want to say
0:58:09 um
0:58:10 yeah i think basically we can just
0:58:11 accept it and the and the sunnah without
0:58:13 any contradiction basically like we
0:58:14 agree with all of these ayats which say
0:58:17 the quran is a guide and you know it's
0:58:19 efficient as a guide for us and within
0:58:21 this very quran is telling us to you
0:58:23 know obey allah and obey his messenger
0:58:25 and to you know look at what the prophet
0:58:27 saw he forbids and what he you know um
0:58:29 permits exactly so within the quran
0:58:31 itself is telling us to go outside of
0:58:32 the quran to the prophet sallallahu and
0:58:34 to those in
0:58:35 it's absolutely true that the quran can
0:58:37 guide you all these verses of guidance
0:58:39 and stuff like that you can be guided by
0:58:42 the quran alone it can guide you
0:58:44 straight to faith no doubt about it but
0:58:46 once it's done that it tells you how to
0:58:49 continue being guided
0:58:50 and it's done through the sunnah
0:58:52 it's there's no there's no contradiction
0:58:54 there it's like going to a surgeon
0:58:57 you can be uh restored from a health
0:58:59 perspective by going to a surgeon
0:59:01 they you have some kind of problem some
0:59:03 tumor is removed and the surgeon says if
0:59:06 you want the tumor not to come back you
0:59:07 have to take the establish
0:59:09 which is not explicitly in his realm of
0:59:11 surgery
0:59:12 but it started off by the surgery that
0:59:14 he was able to restore himself
0:59:16 so the idea of being guided by more than
0:59:19 the quran is the mountain
0:59:21 is the issue of
0:59:22 contention not that the quran itself
0:59:25 can be a source of guidance that there's
0:59:27 no issue of contention we all agree that
0:59:29 the quran itself has to prepare even one
0:59:31 area of the quran can guide somebody
0:59:33 one ayah one just as a courtesy by
0:59:36 itself someone can listen to it and
0:59:38 think this is it
0:59:42 because if
0:59:44 the idea is the quran can guide you and
0:59:46 nothing else but the quran can guide you
0:59:50 then what about not all of the quran but
0:59:52 some of it
0:59:53 but that doesn't that's not classified
0:59:55 as the entire of the entirety of the
0:59:56 quran so surely that can guide you as
0:59:58 well unless they want to say that i
1:00:00 can't in which case
1:00:01 what's the evidence for that i mean it
1:00:03 has guided people right
1:00:05 you know one verse can guide somebody
1:00:07 although the
1:00:09 hadith is weak because they don't care
1:00:11 about hadees
1:00:12 we the story of
1:00:14 you know taha and all these kind of
1:00:16 things and he was guided
1:00:18 there is some weakness in the hadith of
1:00:19 the conversion of sorry
1:00:21 however the point is is it's not
1:00:23 inconceivable that you can be guided by
1:00:25 less than the entirety of the quran
1:00:27 so it's not about this is not the the
1:00:29 issue here any other points that someone
1:00:31 wants to make
1:00:36 okay i think we've kind of covered it is
1:00:37 there anything else uh jake that you
1:00:38 want to make
1:00:39 on this
1:00:40 point
1:00:42 yeah i do want to give what i think is
1:00:44 uh
1:00:45 a death blow response to please the
1:00:48 divert the i have mentioned in uh quran
1:00:51 chapter 12 verse 11 the final
1:00:54 ayah and uh soldier youssef yeah and uh
1:00:57 for that you can go to um chapter six
1:01:01 one uh verse 154 where it talks about
1:01:04 muslim
1:01:05 says then we gave moses to scripture
1:01:08 making complete our favor upon the one
1:01:10 who did good
1:01:12 and as a detailed explanation of all
1:01:15 things
1:01:16 and a guidance mercy that perhaps in the
1:01:19 matter of the meeting uh with their lord
1:01:21 they should believe oh beautifully
1:01:26 phrase that's being used supposedly with
1:01:29 reference to the quran in that verse is
1:01:31 actually mentioned fantastic
1:01:34 i didn't even think it well i didn't
1:01:35 even think of that what a fantastic what
1:01:37 a fantastic answer
1:01:39 and just to repeat what he said just to
1:01:41 make sure everyone was today he's saying
1:01:42 well look
1:01:43 he's saying if this is to be understood
1:01:45 of the quran well if you look at chapter
1:01:47 1 chapter 6 verse 154
1:01:50 muslim
1:02:03 is mentioned about moses
1:02:05 so if it was that he gave moses
1:02:07 everything then the quran and this
1:02:09 discourse would be superfluous is this
1:02:11 the understanding bro yeah
1:02:13 yeah yeah so because then look you know
1:02:16 this is
1:02:17 unless i mean there's the quran itself
1:02:19 you've got to think of this right
1:02:21 does it contain things that the torah
1:02:23 did not it must be by virtue of reality
1:02:25 because muhammad sallallahu alaihi
1:02:27 sallam wasn't alive at the time of moses
1:02:30 so there's additional information in the
1:02:31 quran that it's not there in torah yet
1:02:34 both is referred to silicon
1:02:37 so it's and the concept the contents are
1:02:40 different
1:02:41 so it shows you that it must be
1:02:43 it must be the generic
1:02:45 uh the
1:02:46 uh
1:02:54 generically yes for all guidance the
1:02:55 quran has everything you need
1:02:57 generically that's true
1:02:59 it's like if i say to you look yeah the
1:03:01 sky is blue
1:03:03 now if you say look there's a few clouds
1:03:05 in the sky bro and you know and there's
1:03:07 a sun there as well which is kind of
1:03:08 yellow
1:03:10 it doesn't nullify my statement because
1:03:11 the majority of the sky is blue
1:03:14 and in the same way i'll say look the
1:03:15 quran
1:03:16 generically has everything you need in
1:03:18 guidance
1:03:19 that's true mushmelan as a general
1:03:21 general statement is true but there are
1:03:23 some things which the quran itself
1:03:25 devolves outside of it or seeds outside
1:03:27 of itself
1:03:28 any so um jaquie i wanted to ask you now
1:03:30 is that clear for everyone is there any
1:03:32 problems or
1:03:34 questions that anyone has for for jake
1:03:35 or anything yet
1:03:37 i would like to ask jake yeah
1:03:39 what does he feel the main reason is for
1:03:42 people go to the going to the quran only
1:03:44 stance all right so jake the question
1:03:46 was what what what was the what's the
1:03:48 main reason that people go to the quran
1:03:51 alone stunts
1:03:54 oh bro i think that's gonna
1:03:56 i think that's going to take a bit of
1:03:58 time i don't think it's a
1:03:59 one-size-fits-all answer
1:04:03 but i think
1:04:04 just keeping it simple it's largely due
1:04:06 to ignorance
1:04:09 most of the people who are hadith
1:04:11 rejecters they don't have a basic level
1:04:14 of understanding of the arabic of the
1:04:16 quran
1:04:17 they're sort of lone wolves
1:04:19 and
1:04:21 as i said previously they don't really
1:04:23 care about being involved in the
1:04:25 community
1:04:26 they're very rebellious i'm just
1:04:28 speaking about psychological traits
1:04:30 but
1:04:31 intellectually speaking i think it's due
1:04:33 to ignorance
1:04:35 and
1:04:36 the fact that they don't really know
1:04:38 that much i mean looking back upon
1:04:40 myself i can say that
1:04:42 um
1:04:43 so yeah i think it's due to ignorance
1:04:44 and also
1:04:46 looking at certain hadith where
1:04:49 they think conflict with the
1:04:51 you know modern understanding of things
1:04:54 whether it be politically or what have
1:04:56 you
1:04:58 they see problems with certain hadith
1:05:01 and in light of that without really
1:05:03 trying to understand these things
1:05:06 from an academic perspective and asking
1:05:09 people who would be able to explain
1:05:11 these things to them they just sort of
1:05:12 throw the baby out with the bath water
1:05:15 and uh say well you know i'm not going
1:05:17 to be involved with any hadith
1:05:18 whatsoever
1:05:19 and
1:05:20 so that's that's my understanding
1:05:23 beautiful um
1:05:26 one second
1:05:27 another question yep
1:05:28 um i should have specified obviously
1:05:31 they're all in a state of ignorance when
1:05:34 it comes to the quran yoon but what
1:05:36 about the ones who have actually looked
1:05:38 into um
1:05:40 sunni islam and their own quran yoon
1:05:44 stance
1:05:45 and have solidified their position i
1:05:47 know there may be some of them who are
1:05:48 in extreme ignorance but i was thinking
1:05:51 more along the lines of
1:05:53 this may be a mechanism for them to open
1:05:56 up the doors of their own desires
1:05:58 because all the akam which are in the
1:06:00 hadith
1:06:01 are now obliterated for them and they
1:06:03 can make their own tafsir of
1:06:06 quranic verses to an extent so they can
1:06:08 also remove
1:06:09 some of the akam
1:06:11 from the quran
1:06:12 and this kind of lets them do what they
1:06:14 want to a large extent while still
1:06:16 calling themselves muslim at least would
1:06:18 you agree with that
1:06:19 did you hear him uh jake
1:06:23 all right so he he said look i mean he
1:06:25 said um
1:06:27 he wanted to specify and say that what
1:06:29 about those who have been actually
1:06:31 exposed to the sunni position to hear
1:06:33 all the evidences that we've just
1:06:35 relayed
1:06:37 could it be to do with the fact that a
1:06:39 lot of the akam
1:06:40 or the junctions and prescriptions of
1:06:42 islam
1:06:44 they are contained in the hadith and
1:06:46 they want to be able to call themselves
1:06:47 muslim whilst at the same time
1:06:50 obliterating or nullifying
1:06:53 aspects of the sunnah which would mean
1:06:55 that they live a more restricted life
1:07:00 uh yeah that's part of it but i would
1:07:02 actually argue
1:07:03 that in many instances if you don't
1:07:06 incorporate the uh sunnah to clarify and
1:07:09 better understand what the
1:07:11 ah cam are and what the even the rulings
1:07:14 contained within the quran itself are
1:07:16 then you're going to lead uh it's going
1:07:18 to lead to absurdities i'll give just
1:07:20 one example where in the quran we know
1:07:22 that the punishment for the thief is
1:07:24 mentioned and actually if you look at
1:07:27 the wording of the uh ayah it says to
1:07:30 chop off both hands
1:07:32 it doesn't say to chop off one it says
1:07:35 to actually chop off both hands of the
1:07:37 uh the thief
1:07:38 and if you just take that on a
1:07:40 you know a straightforward basis with no
1:07:43 uh re recourse to the sun itself there's
1:07:46 no conditions about okay in what
1:07:49 condition is this actually implemented
1:07:51 there's no condition whatsoever and so
1:07:54 uh
1:07:54 you could actually argue from a purely
1:07:57 quotation perspective that no i mean if
1:08:00 if uh a person just takes an apple off
1:08:03 of a uh a food cart well chop both of
1:08:06 his hands off and i've actually had in
1:08:08 conversations when i brought this up to
1:08:10 hadith projectors i had a guy tell me
1:08:13 well yeah if a little boy steals an
1:08:15 apple off of a you know food cart yeah
1:08:18 chop both of his hands off and i said
1:08:19 really are you serious brother he said
1:08:21 yeah i'm an old school muslim that's how
1:08:23 i get down so
1:08:25 i'm just saying
1:08:27 this can actually lead to absurdities
1:08:30 when they actually when they think that
1:08:32 actually leaving the sunnah
1:08:35 leads to
1:08:36 what they might consider a more barbaric
1:08:39 interpretation of islam no in actual
1:08:41 fact if you don't have the sunnah to
1:08:43 clarify some of these matters you can
1:08:45 just carry out these punishments
1:08:47 unconditionally based on the quranic
1:08:49 text
1:08:50 so i
1:08:51 i yeah i see that that may be a
1:08:53 motivation for people but i would just
1:08:54 point out that it could actually lead to
1:08:58 the very thing which they're trying to
1:09:00 avoid
1:09:01 that's a very interesting way of putting
1:09:03 it um
1:09:05 what we will say now is i wanted to get
1:09:06 your
1:09:08 own experience jake
1:09:09 uh in this cult and um
1:09:12 being introduced to like some of the uh
1:09:14 themes of their kind of group including
1:09:16 the number 19 uh
1:09:19 theory
1:09:20 yeah i'm not sure if you guys have heard
1:09:22 of it rashad khalifa i think is he's an
1:09:24 egyptian guy unfortunately he really
1:09:26 shamed our population and our people
1:09:30 and he had this idea that number 19 was
1:09:32 like a recurring theme in the quran and
1:09:34 if you don't believe it some some of
1:09:35 them said that you're disbelieving all
1:09:37 these kinds of things i want to hear it
1:09:38 from you
1:09:40 what is this cult about bro and what are
1:09:42 they saying
1:09:46 yes so this this 19th cult and um i used
1:09:49 to be a part of it because i used to
1:09:50 believe in 19 in fact
1:09:52 people can't see me right now but i'm
1:09:54 holding a book that is called 19
1:09:57 god signature in nature and scripture um
1:10:00 it's well over 500 pages i've gone
1:10:01 through the whole thing with highlights
1:10:03 it's actually uh written by edit
1:10:05 mukeshel who's a turkish gentleman who's
1:10:08 actually the torch bearer uh for rashad
1:10:11 khalifa essentially when he got
1:10:12 assassinated is it still alive this guy
1:10:15 yeah i did
1:10:16 uh yeah he's still alive i've actually
1:10:18 debated him publicly uh people can check
1:10:20 it out yeah um i i met him
1:10:23 uh personally a couple times so i know
1:10:25 him quite well
1:10:27 um
1:10:28 yeah he's still alive and he has quite a
1:10:30 following on youtube he's got over a
1:10:32 hundred thousand subscribers so people
1:10:34 follow this guy and uh as fa ma um
1:10:37 you know actually when i became a quit
1:10:39 highness and i searched online this
1:10:41 stuff
1:10:42 this is the first people you'll come
1:10:44 across as rashad khalifa and edubuxel i
1:10:47 bought all their books and i i sort of
1:10:48 became obsessed with it unfortunately um
1:10:52 so
1:10:53 this idea of 19
1:10:56 was started by rashad khalifa in the
1:10:59 early 1970s i think 1974
1:11:02 which they also claim is a miracle
1:11:04 because this whole idea that the quran
1:11:07 is mathematically coded by a system of
1:11:10 19. now i'll give an example of what i
1:11:12 mean by that
1:11:13 take for example that the quran has 114
1:11:17 chapters or soras well they say that's
1:11:19 actually divisible by 19
1:11:22 and so
1:11:23 which is a prime number and they say
1:11:25 what's so miraculous about uh 19 is that
1:11:28 it's a prime number so the fact that
1:11:30 many things in the quran are
1:11:32 mathematically coded to be divisible uh
1:11:35 or to be multiples of 19 is miraculous
1:11:38 and they show that you know out of the
1:11:40 range of probability they give you all
1:11:42 these numbers
1:11:45 jake didn't
1:11:46 himself say that
1:11:48 were not part of the quran
1:11:52 um not to my knowledge
1:11:56 i don't recall that
1:12:00 yeah i don't recall that but
1:12:02 so
1:12:03 um yeah
1:12:05 if they do say that that would probably
1:12:06 ask
1:12:08 yeah
1:12:09 so
1:12:09 here's a problem for their theory one of
1:12:11 the examples that they use is that the
1:12:13 name of allah in the quran
1:12:16 they say that it has to be a multiple of
1:12:18 19.
1:12:20 now given the fact that it has to be
1:12:22 multiple 19 what they've done is they
1:12:24 did all the calculations they might have
1:12:26 left the amount of letters in there or
1:12:28 what
1:12:30 no no no the the amount of times that
1:12:32 the name of allah subhanahu wa appears
1:12:34 in the quran so they said whatever that
1:12:37 total amount is has to be a multiple of
1:12:40 19. so it has to be divisible by 19. why
1:12:45 well because that's that's the part this
1:12:47 is the whole theory
1:12:49 [Laughter]
1:12:55 this is the thing it's totally arbitrary
1:12:58 right
1:12:58 why is it that the name of allah has to
1:13:01 be in their multiple of 19 but not uh
1:13:04 another pr specific um
1:13:08 name of allah like a rahman for example
1:13:11 why is that
1:13:12 there's no justification for it
1:13:14 whatsoever it's just completely
1:13:16 arbitrary nily willy but leaving that
1:13:19 aside for a second
1:13:20 um
1:13:21 you actually made a comment earlier
1:13:23 about what these people think well i'll
1:13:25 read you from this book 19 itself
1:13:28 straight from the barrel we don't need
1:13:30 to you know make this stuff up on our
1:13:32 own
1:13:33 now i want to remind people because this
1:13:34 is something very important you know
1:13:37 some people think well these kodanas
1:13:40 they're actually very you know modern
1:13:42 modest people they're like liberal
1:13:44 leftists and they want everybody to get
1:13:46 along well actually in fact i'm sorry to
1:13:48 say as you are some of the nastiest
1:13:51 people you'll ever meet i'm just being
1:13:53 quite frank with you why
1:13:55 they are some of the people that are
1:13:58 most willing and most easily to make
1:14:01 take fear of people they for the most
1:14:03 part like edibuxel and rashad khalifa
1:14:06 not only do they not think that sunnis
1:14:08 are muslims they think that we are
1:14:09 mushriki and i'll read that for you in
1:14:12 just a second
1:14:13 but even further still further more than
1:14:16 that
1:14:16 they believe that anybody who rejects
1:14:19 the miracle of 19 in the quran after
1:14:22 seeing witness to it then you'll be in
1:14:24 hell eternally so here's here's probably
1:14:27 a good one
1:14:29 let me let me roll my sleeves up and
1:14:32 wait for this one go ahead please
1:14:34 listen to this this is on page 435 and
1:14:38 edit muxel's book on 19. he says this
1:14:42 whatever your excuses or reasons to
1:14:44 ignore reject or ridicule the number 19
1:14:48 this article will expose your true
1:14:50 intentions which you might be trying to
1:14:53 hide even from yourself
1:14:55 if you are claiming to believe in the
1:14:57 quran and after reading this article
1:15:00 still continue ignoring or ridiculing
1:15:03 the mathematical code of the quran
1:15:06 you will be tormented
1:15:08 all your life by repeatedly witnessing
1:15:11 an exciting fact and losing its sight
1:15:14 afterwards like a person who witnesses
1:15:17 succeeding events of lightning in the
1:15:19 darkness and he's mentioning he's
1:15:21 referencing sir buffett there you will
1:15:23 neither appreciate nor comprehend the
1:15:26 miracle nor will you be satisfied with
1:15:29 your denial you will perpetually
1:15:31 oscillate between momentary belief and
1:15:34 uh and prolonged disbelief between
1:15:37 private doubt and public denial you will
1:15:40 be doomed to suffer
1:15:42 here and in the hereafter basically
1:15:45 saying that you're going to be in hell
1:15:47 but if you acknowledge the truth and
1:15:49 gain some goodness in your
1:15:51 acknowledgement that this article by
1:15:53 god's will may wake you up from your
1:15:56 ignorance and may change your paradigm
1:15:58 and it goes on further and further to
1:16:00 say but the fact of the matter is you're
1:16:02 going to be tormented in this life and
1:16:04 the next just by the mere fact of you
1:16:06 reading this article by this genius who
1:16:09 had to come you know so many years later
1:16:11 to tell us by the way we missed this all
1:16:13 this time guys and if you just by
1:16:16 reading this article you don't accept
1:16:18 what he says you'll be tormented in this
1:16:20 life in the next subhanallah so what do
1:16:22 you guys think of that well i mean i
1:16:23 think it's a pretty pretty preposterous
1:16:26 claim
1:16:26 [Laughter]
1:16:31 but what i want to know what i think we
1:16:32 should all know is what is their
1:16:33 strongest argument for 19. the only
1:16:35 thing the only time the word 19
1:16:38 that i can remember now coming in the
1:16:40 quran is allah
1:16:44 you know that's what they use it yeah
1:16:45 okay
1:16:47 it's talking about oh really it's
1:16:49 talking about um the angels and the
1:16:51 hellfire
1:16:52 you know yeah yeah so
1:16:55 that's the genesis of their argument
1:16:57 that's the only time i can imagine 19
1:16:58 but tell me now what's their evidences
1:17:00 for this miracle what is the miracle of
1:17:02 19 what is it
1:17:04 i don't i don't even know what it is
1:17:05 still
1:17:07 yes so the miracle is this is that out
1:17:09 of the realm of probability or
1:17:12 possibility you have so many things in
1:17:14 the quran that have
1:17:16 this
1:17:17 miraculous structure that everything is
1:17:20 divisible by 19 the number of surahs the
1:17:23 number of times that the
1:17:25 name of allah is mentioned in the quran
1:17:27 they even do this with
1:17:29 surah fatiha they try to explain it in a
1:17:32 particular way but allah's name is
1:17:33 mentioned more times than what you're
1:17:35 saying is divisible by 19.
1:17:38 yeah it's divisible by 19. meaning to
1:17:40 say that okay for 19 times 2 is 38 so of
1:17:44 course it's more than that but anything
1:17:47 anything that is
1:17:49 really relevant is going to be divisible
1:17:51 by 19. this is the argument well that
1:17:53 one good one is
1:17:56 one i'm sorry the fact that allah has
1:17:59 won
1:18:02 um
1:18:03 well he so he does this in the book i
1:18:06 don't know if um
1:18:08 i think that actually is one of the
1:18:09 examples he gives i think that
1:18:12 is mentioned 19 times in the quran i
1:18:15 would have to check actually
1:18:16 okay
1:18:18 it's only mentioned really in respect to
1:18:19 allah one time
1:18:22 okay so here yeah so here he has okay i
1:18:25 got a page open for you see we can all
1:18:26 make our arbitrary
1:18:29 criterions
1:18:32 mentioned supposedly this is don't go by
1:18:34 this this is his calculation we gotta
1:18:36 check this because these guys are um
1:18:38 can't be trusted but he says rashman is
1:18:41 mentioned 57 times in the quran 19 times
1:18:45 three
1:18:45 um
1:18:47 is mentioned uh 19 times in the quran 19
1:18:50 times one
1:18:51 allah is mentioned
1:18:54 2698 times in the quran that's 19 times
1:18:57 142. uh raheem is mentioned 114 times in
1:19:01 the quran that's 19 times 6. so i mean
1:19:05 this is just some example so you get the
1:19:06 idea of what i'm trying to say does that
1:19:08 make sense at least yes but what i
1:19:10 wanted to ask you is you know
1:19:13 from what i've read and some of them
1:19:14 what you told me as well before
1:19:16 is that some of them attribute uh
1:19:18 insurgent and addition to the quran is
1:19:20 that true
1:19:23 oh yeah so this is we this is something
1:19:26 we need to really uncover here um with
1:19:28 this this group here this cult so
1:19:32 um let me see if i can just pull it up
1:19:34 for you to read from this guy's section
1:19:37 is it the same guy that says this
1:19:38 gentleman
1:19:39 yeah
1:19:40 i'm going to read you an article from
1:19:42 1989 from rashad khalifa's used to have
1:19:46 a newspaper called submission
1:19:47 perspective and this is going to be from
1:19:50 um
1:19:51 september 1989 i'm going to read it in a
1:19:54 second but let me read edit buttesel
1:19:56 first because this is the the living
1:19:59 representative
1:20:00 he says this in a footnote which he
1:20:02 actually has his own translation of the
1:20:04 quran um if you can't get it for free
1:20:07 don't buy it but um
1:20:10 at the end in saratova
1:20:13 uh quran chapter 9 ver
1:20:15 typically has 129 verses
1:20:18 now what they say is that the final two
1:20:20 verses of the quran of this surah sorry
1:20:24 uh verse 128 and 129 are actually
1:20:28 insertions by shaytan
1:20:30 and that the mathematical code of the
1:20:32 quran of 19 has actually come to us to
1:20:36 tell us that this was falsely inserted
1:20:38 into the quran has been that way for so
1:20:41 long and muslims have been misled by
1:20:43 this so let me let me read you a
1:20:45 footnote
1:20:48 on this where he says this
1:20:49 do the numerical structure of the quran
1:20:52 leads us to accept this chapter talking
1:20:54 about uh chapter nine
1:20:57 having
1:20:58 127 verses rather than 129
1:21:02 and it rejects the additional statements
1:21:05 found in modern manuscripts which are
1:21:08 written here in italics
1:21:10 this major correction is imposed on us
1:21:12 by the quran's own testimony by its
1:21:16 self-authenticating system the
1:21:18 correction made by the numerical
1:21:20 structure of the quran
1:21:22 is also supported by numerous historical
1:21:25 advancing reports and then he says to
1:21:27 see another section in his book where he
1:21:29 has more details on this but the idea is
1:21:31 this and remember what i mentioned about
1:21:33 the name of allah mentioned in the quran
1:21:36 which was two thousand some odd times i
1:21:38 forget the number
1:21:40 the idea is this that um supposedly
1:21:43 if those two verses of the quran are
1:21:46 mentioned well the name of allah is
1:21:48 actually mentioned there
1:21:50 and that would throw off the count so
1:21:52 then the name of allah would not be
1:21:54 divisible by
1:21:56 19. and we can't have that so what we
1:21:58 have to do is we have to throw these
1:22:00 verses of the quran out subhanallah and
1:22:02 say that they were injected by the
1:22:04 shaitaan in order to get the count of 19
1:22:08 in accordance you see so this is one
1:22:10 example one reason why their second
1:22:13 argument they have three main arguments
1:22:15 for this their second argument why
1:22:17 choose that one
1:22:18 why choose that one why not choose
1:22:20 another verse
1:22:24 getting ready to show you the two other
1:22:26 reasons that go along with it why they
1:22:28 prefer it so and it's garbage we'll
1:22:31 refute it very easily the second
1:22:33 argument is that the prophet
1:22:36 mentioned in this salallahu
1:22:38 uh which is it one two is it one twenty
1:22:41 eight or one twenty nine one twenty
1:22:42 eight one twenty sure it's right before
1:22:44 that because the last verse is the one
1:22:49 yeah he's mentioned as merciful yeah and
1:22:52 what their argument is by the way
1:22:55 this is actually shock because
1:22:57 you are attributing
1:22:59 uh a name or attribute that is solely
1:23:02 due to allah himself and you're saying
1:23:04 that it's the prophet
1:23:07 it's not uh
1:23:08 it's not without either or is it the
1:23:10 area exactly of course this is not the
1:23:13 most
1:23:18 verse yeah first yes first of all it
1:23:21 doesn't have the definite article so it
1:23:23 doesn't have the aleph and the lamb the
1:23:25 article of perfection and therefore
1:23:27 there is no problem second of all not
1:23:30 only that we've seen other verses in the
1:23:32 quran that other people besides the
1:23:34 prophet peace be upon him are actually
1:23:36 mentioned as merciful in fact allah says
1:23:39 in the quran that he is the most
1:23:42 merciful of those who show mercy so oh
1:23:45 what about all those other people so it
1:23:47 doesn't work you have to now exclude all
1:23:49 these other verses that mention the same
1:23:51 thing likewise so that's a silly
1:23:53 argument we throw that right in the bin
1:23:55 now the third argument they use which
1:23:57 well strapped your seatbelt for this one
1:24:00 is is quite ironic from coming from
1:24:02 hadith rejecters they say this
1:24:05 by the way
1:24:07 in
1:24:07 the hadith corpus
1:24:09 the only two verses that are actually
1:24:12 mentioned that did not have two
1:24:14 witnesses for them
1:24:16 are these two verses
1:24:18 uh sort of toba chapter 9 verses 1 28
1:24:22 and 129 and because of that because they
1:24:25 didn't have two witnesses this also
1:24:28 further supports the point that these
1:24:30 are false verses injected into the quran
1:24:32 now look at that a hadith rejecter using
1:24:36 hadith to reject the quran
1:24:40 that's not ironic i don't know if it is
1:24:45 that's their third argument which is
1:24:47 absolutely ridiculous
1:24:49 um that you're actually reject hadith
1:24:52 but you're gonna use hadith when it
1:24:54 supposedly suits you to actually reject
1:24:56 two verses of the quran i mean my god
1:24:59 so i don't know what do you guys think
1:25:00 about that i think that's a that's a
1:25:03 decimation um complete deconstruction of
1:25:06 the if this is the level of
1:25:07 argumentation we're dealing with
1:25:09 then i don't think there's much uh
1:25:11 then i in many ways i
1:25:13 almost regret
1:25:16 spending the time
1:25:18 on them
1:25:23 they have a decent amount of followers
1:25:25 but let me let me just read you one last
1:25:27 thing from the from the big dog himself
1:25:29 rashad felipe who started all this thing
1:25:32 so you can see it's not just edibuxl
1:25:34 saying this in his um
1:25:37 submission perspective article september
1:25:40 1989 if anybody wants the scans i can
1:25:42 send it to him at the top it says
1:25:45 history of the false verses chapter 9
1:25:48 128 and 129 and he goes on talking
1:25:51 talking talking about how it's a false
1:25:53 verse now listen to this this is what he
1:25:55 says
1:25:56 and i want people to be clear about what
1:25:58 this guy claimed about himself he wasn't
1:26:00 just claiming to find some miracle in
1:26:03 the quran you know
1:26:05 this is what he said
1:26:06 through gabriel
1:26:08 angel jibril
1:26:11 i was commanded to make this
1:26:13 announcement now what is this
1:26:14 announcement well he said this
1:26:16 absolutely
1:26:18 yeah this is this is this is rashad
1:26:19 khalifa himself saying this listen folks
1:26:22 so gabriel very closely
1:26:24 though gabriel through gabriel i was
1:26:27 commanded to make this announcement
1:26:29 after i die
1:26:31 millions of believers will know what
1:26:34 that i represent the messiah the jews
1:26:36 have been waiting for the christ
1:26:38 christians have been expecting the mahdi
1:26:41 the muslims have been praying for i am
1:26:44 god's messenger of the covenant and then
1:26:47 he cites quran chapter 3 verse 81 and he
1:26:50 even cites some biblical passages
1:26:52 malachi chapter 3 so on and so on i mean
1:26:56 is that quite shocking this was not just
1:26:58 a person
1:27:00 the reason why he was killed or
1:27:01 something
1:27:03 um
1:27:04 allahu adam but actually on the back of
1:27:06 this book of 19 where uh education has a
1:27:10 picture with rasha khalifa he says this
1:27:12 rashad was declared a heretic or
1:27:15 apostate by leading sunni scholars from
1:27:17 38 countries who held an emergency
1:27:20 conference in saudi arabia in march 19
1:27:23 1988 to discuss the salman rushdie
1:27:26 controversy while rusty you survived the
1:27:28 fatwa rashad was assassinated by in in
1:27:31 this masjid which he has a picture of
1:27:34 january 31st 1990 by a terrorist group
1:27:37 linked to al-qaeda so he's claiming that
1:27:40 it is a terrorist thing i don't know
1:27:42 what happened i mean uh people can look
1:27:44 into that if they want but yeah he was
1:27:46 he was definitely declared an apostate
1:27:49 um uh by a committee uh in what was that
1:27:53 1988 or so so and was killed a couple
1:27:56 years later
1:27:58 so yeah look i mean this is what i'm not
1:28:00 advocating that the guy was killed like
1:28:02 this but
1:28:03 we can see a reason why when he's
1:28:05 claiming such high titles for himself
1:28:07 and claiming that the quran actually uh
1:28:10 mentions him or prophesizes him in the
1:28:12 quran chapter 3 verse 81 let me just
1:28:15 read that actually so people might be
1:28:17 curious as to what it says
1:28:19 uh and this is from his translation so
1:28:22 you can get a flavor of what he's saying
1:28:24 because i've got he has his own
1:28:25 translation of the quran as well it's
1:28:27 quran the final testament which is
1:28:30 language we wouldn't accept anyway
1:28:32 but he says here
1:28:34 god took a covenant from the prophet
1:28:36 saying i will give the scripture and
1:28:38 wisdom afterwards a messenger will come
1:28:41 to confirm all existing scriptures you
1:28:44 shall believe in him and support him he
1:28:46 said do you agree with this and pledge
1:28:49 to fulfill this covenant they said we
1:28:51 agree he said you have thus bore witness
1:28:54 and i bear witness along with you now uh
1:28:57 brother jab you can correct me if i'm
1:28:59 wrong but i think that slimness
1:29:01 understand this as speaking about the
1:29:03 prophet uh muhammad sallallahu alaihi
1:29:05 wasallam is that correct
1:29:07 is it which verse is against sorry say
1:29:09 the the reference uh
1:29:12 yeah sir imran uh verse number 81 yeah
1:29:15 yeah
1:29:17 yeah that one yeah
1:29:18 uh dalton yeah
1:29:21 yeah yeah that one yeah it's just
1:29:25 yeah so this this joker says it's
1:29:27 talking about him and then he listen he
1:29:29 also references the bible and says that
1:29:32 he's put he's actually predicted in the
1:29:35 bible the example he gives is in matthew
1:29:37 24 27 which talks about the son of man
1:29:42 for as the lightning cometh out of the
1:29:44 east and shineth even onto the west so
1:29:46 shall also the coming of the son of man
1:29:49 be so this joker thinks that he's the
1:29:51 son of man i mean he takes his son a man
1:29:54 mentioned in the bible coming you know
1:29:57 and and so
1:29:58 listen it's quite i'm laughing but it's
1:30:00 actually quite serious because i mean
1:30:02 this is
1:30:03 a serious accusation that being made by
1:30:06 this guy claiming that after i die
1:30:08 millions of people will know that i'm
1:30:10 the messiah oh my god
1:30:13 and
1:30:14 re and this is in the same article where
1:30:16 he's saying that he came to clarify the
1:30:19 two false verses that were injected into
1:30:22 the quran
1:30:23 so um well
1:30:25 i'll tell you what i think we've got
1:30:26 more than enough ammunition i think here
1:30:28 with this group
1:30:29 i think we've done overkill it's like
1:30:31 trying to kill a bunny with with a with
1:30:33 a machine gun
1:30:35 bringing a machine gun and trying to
1:30:36 kill like a a bunny or a fly with a with
1:30:39 a cannon or something
1:30:42 anyways jake i think
1:30:44 yeah one last point yeah
1:30:47 one last point is this something i
1:30:49 forgot to mention earlier with respect
1:30:51 to the hadith rejecters is one of the
1:30:53 arguments they use is to say
1:30:56 that the prophet peace be upon him only
1:30:58 received the quran the only wahi or
1:31:01 revelation that he received was the
1:31:02 quran and there's in um edith muxes
1:31:05 translation which i told him about he
1:31:07 said oh it was a mistake but he has
1:31:09 fixed it yet by the way um
1:31:11 in chapter 6 verse 19 i'm just going to
1:31:14 read his translation on the top of it it
1:31:17 says muhammad peace be upon him was
1:31:19 given only the quran so this is the
1:31:21 claim where he's getting to come to say
1:31:24 which which is the greatest testimony
1:31:26 say
1:31:27 god is witness between me and you and he
1:31:29 has inspired to me
1:31:31 this quran that i may warn with it being
1:31:34 singular
1:31:35 and whom whomever it reaches do you bear
1:31:38 witness that there are gods
1:31:41 or that there are alongside god other
1:31:43 gods
1:31:44 uh say i do not bear witness say he is
1:31:47 only one god and i am innocent of your
1:31:50 setting up partners then in the footnote
1:31:52 of his book and this is what i want to
1:31:54 tell you these are not some you know
1:31:56 liberal people that uh want everybody to
1:31:59 get along like a bunch of hippies what
1:32:01 does he say in the footnote about this
1:32:03 verse
1:32:04 accepting other authorities besides the
1:32:07 quran to define god's system is
1:32:10 considered polytheism
1:32:12 and he's using this as a verse so they
1:32:15 believe that all sunnis are mushrikeen
1:32:18 we're all mushriks subhanallah this is
1:32:20 what they this is such an unusual
1:32:22 definition of
1:32:24 i mean it's like yeah it's it's as if he
1:32:27 doesn't know what the idea of shirk
1:32:29 is i mean
1:32:30 uh this person i'm surprised he's being
1:32:33 followed by anybody uh
1:32:34 to be honest uh he's is almost worth
1:32:37 none of our time but if we ever do
1:32:40 encounter people with this belief i
1:32:42 think we have the ammunition to do with
1:32:44 them now and i think what's been really
1:32:45 good about today's session as well is
1:32:47 that we have we understand
1:32:49 the status of the sunnah and the say of
1:32:51 muhammad in the religion of islam jake
1:32:54 it's been a pleasure thank you so much
1:32:55 for your contributions
1:33:01 and as for the rest of the people
1:33:04 that are watching at home it's been a
1:33:06 pleasure
1:33:07 to do this as well
1:33:09 i think this is one of the weakest cults
1:33:12 that we've had to deal with and one of
1:33:14 the weakest propositions that have been
1:33:16 made about the religion of islam
1:33:19 in this entire series and i know i said
1:33:21 that with the americas but i think they
1:33:23 have actually gotten the gold medal now
1:33:24 for the weakest
1:33:26 for the weakest thing
1:33:30 oh yes yes yes
1:33:33 finances were excluded from that
1:33:35 but with that i conclude
1:33:36 wassalamualaikum warahmatullahi