Londoniyyah - Part 24 - Sikhism | Mohammed Hijab (2022-04-10) #

0:00:08 welcome to another
0:00:10 episode where we're going to be talking
0:00:11 insha'allah about
0:00:14 sikhism which is one of the largest
0:00:16 world religions and a religion which is
0:00:18 an indic religion one that is also
0:00:22 in the concentrate or the demography of
0:00:24 sikhs are concentrated in this
0:00:26 subcontinent
0:00:27 and obviously it leads off quite well
0:00:30 from the discussion that we had before
0:00:32 about hinduism which is also
0:00:34 an indic religion but in fact this is uh
0:00:38 well the first ever if you like hindi
0:00:40 indic religion
0:00:42 in many ways some have said that sikhism
0:00:46 has many things in common with
0:00:49 hinduism a lot of that we will cover
0:00:52 today and this
0:00:53 lesson is going to or you should say
0:00:55 session
0:00:56 cover the same kind of structure
0:00:59 as the one before
0:01:02 namely we will leave it to the
0:01:04 participants to do
0:01:06 the majority of the talking
0:01:08 because i think after all of these
0:01:10 sessions you and they and we have all
0:01:14 had enough
0:01:15 of my
0:01:17 voice
0:01:18 and of course i haven't
0:01:20 but that is something for another day so
0:01:23 we're going to speak firstly about
0:01:25 probably the most important thing
0:01:26 uh about
0:01:28 arguably the most important thing about
0:01:30 any religion which is
0:01:32 the conception of god or the sikh
0:01:34 conception
0:01:36 of god
0:01:36 you're going to start us off
0:01:38 with that so let me ask you what is the
0:01:41 sikh conception of god
0:01:44 so this is conception of god
0:01:46 very similar to the islamic conception
0:01:48 okay i would say
0:01:50 in terms of theology is very much the
0:01:53 same
0:01:55 they believe in one god they believe in
0:01:56 the oneness of
0:01:58 of god
0:02:01 the name they use most widely to to call
0:02:04 god is
0:02:06 waheguru
0:02:10 which means one draws one the rose and
0:02:13 lighter
0:02:15 and
0:02:16 like i said they believe in one god who
0:02:18 created everything
0:02:20 and they believe
0:02:22 which is good uh
0:02:24 is is in
0:02:26 in our minds all the time or must remain
0:02:28 in our minds it needs to be in our minds
0:02:30 all the time that's the way of
0:02:31 of kind of um praying or or
0:02:35 you know
0:02:36 basically
0:02:39 worshiping god
0:02:44 so
0:02:45 this different ways they can describe
0:02:55 okay so let's take it one by one satnam
0:02:58 means what a true name true name okay
0:03:02 yes
0:03:05 which
0:03:06 literally means which means one yes in
0:03:09 in punjabi or and uh on car uh god so
0:03:13 there's one only one quote
0:03:16 uh which is like eternal being
0:03:20 and then
0:03:21 uh similar to islam
0:03:22 they they give this white guru it's
0:03:25 called
0:03:26 attributes
0:03:27 and they call it the creator
0:03:30 which is like the act of creating
0:03:32 everything
0:03:33 um hookum they call hookum the act of
0:03:36 creating everything
0:03:38 uh ineffable which is uh
0:03:41 uh the essence cannot be as they could
0:03:43 adequately describe in in what
0:03:47 is god is genderless
0:03:50 so waheguru is neither male or female
0:03:54 self-revealing unnecessary does not
0:03:58 does not need uh so god is safe for
0:04:00 building unnecessary so it does not need
0:04:02 the
0:04:03 uh creator
0:04:05 uh
0:04:06 guru is sargon which means
0:04:08 a human imminent
0:04:11 or within the world in the world and
0:04:14 therefore able to have a personal
0:04:15 relationship with the creation
0:04:18 at the same time
0:04:19 guru is nirgun which is transcendent
0:04:23 or beyond creation or and therefore
0:04:27 unaffected by the war
0:04:29 does that make sense yeah okay it's also
0:04:32 eternal what grows outside the time and
0:04:34 space and beyond the circles of birth
0:04:36 and death
0:04:37 so basically uh
0:04:39 humans
0:04:40 they burn and they die
0:04:42 and they born again until they go out of
0:04:44 the cycle by
0:04:47 remembering
0:04:49 god
0:04:50 present in our creation in form of
0:04:52 divine spark
0:04:54 this is the part of wahaguru that is
0:04:56 within all beings and it is the soul of
0:04:59 of a being basically
0:05:01 uh
0:05:02 rebelled it was revealed by the grace of
0:05:05 uh of the guru this is the belief that
0:05:07 guru can be known through understanding
0:05:10 and learning
0:05:11 what each other of the 10 gurus
0:05:13 contributed contributed to secretion
0:05:18 and no no but to all so he knows
0:05:20 everything and where guru is no but to
0:05:22 anyone who dedicates his
0:05:24 his or her life
0:05:26 to learning and understanding god
0:05:34 so yeah i believe that only one guru
0:05:36 must be worshipped no know what no one
0:05:39 is
0:05:40 should be worshipped
0:05:44 and i think on this point
0:05:46 uh
0:05:47 oh you can consider obviously just don't
0:05:48 forget where you are just
0:05:50 the key definitions okay so definitions
0:05:53 of worship
0:05:55 as muslims we have
0:05:57 our own definitions of worship we have
0:05:59 our own understandings and conceptions
0:06:01 of worship of course for sikhs sikhs
0:06:04 have their own definitions of worship
0:06:05 their own conceptions of worship
0:06:07 so in order for us to see okay who are
0:06:10 you worshipping
0:06:11 whose conception are we looking are we
0:06:12 looking at the sikh conception we're
0:06:13 looking at muslim conception so i think
0:06:15 at this point it's very good continue
0:06:16 but what i want to
0:06:18 caveat in here is that this is from a
0:06:21 sikh perspective
0:06:24 so
0:06:25 like i said they
0:06:27 they
0:06:28 only worship
0:06:29 or they must worship only by guru which
0:06:31 is good
0:06:33 it is for forbidden to worship any image
0:06:36 of a guru similar to islam
0:06:39 and
0:06:39 but they do have images of the of the
0:06:41 gurus of the 10 gurus
0:06:44 a phone
0:06:45 you can find the finder in the good
0:06:47 waters or the temples
0:06:52 the mantra
0:06:54 so the 66 believe that
0:06:56 guru nature is expressed in the mantra
0:06:59 which is part of the
0:07:01 of the like the holy book
0:07:03 and so can you expand this
0:07:05 say this one more time so the mantra is
0:07:08 the sixth statement of belief is like
0:07:10 our tahit
0:07:14 it is the basis of the whole sikhism and
0:07:17 contains the key of a key belief about
0:07:19 ohaguru and so what do you know what the
0:07:22 the phrases they say are
0:07:27 not really
0:07:28 i mean uh
0:07:33 the moon mantra is the most important
0:07:34 composition of this of secretion
0:07:37 which is reflected in the fact that
0:07:39 it is the opening lines of guru granth
0:07:42 sahib which
0:07:52 and the first line of the moon mantra
0:07:56 therefore the guru granth sahib
0:07:58 it starts with
0:07:59 ankara which is
0:08:01 one god although there is only one god
0:08:04 and this symbolizes the importance of of
0:08:07 the belief in the oneness of god and the
0:08:09 oneness of the
0:08:10 humanity they believe that everyone is
0:08:13 equal
0:08:14 so basically the book starts by saying
0:08:16 that this one god
0:08:18 um
0:08:19 this important interestingly obviously
0:08:21 sikhism is a very modern religion
0:08:23 i think this should be trust as well
0:08:25 comp comparative to other religions like
0:08:27 hinduism
0:08:29 and
0:08:30 islam of judaism and christianity all
0:08:32 these religions existed thousands of
0:08:33 years ago in the case of islam as a
0:08:35 medieval religion in the case of
0:08:37 in the time of antiquity and hinduism
0:08:40 even before that so
0:08:41 obviously we believe islam has always
0:08:42 been there from our narrative but it's
0:08:44 important to note that some things you
0:08:47 may
0:08:48 feel or
0:08:50 uh think have a modern feel and sense
0:08:54 but don't forget this this religion is
0:08:56 quite modern itself
0:08:57 you know it existed at the same time
0:08:59 where a lot of the
0:09:00 enlightenment ideas had been in
0:09:03 formulation
0:09:04 and and indians had been in connection
0:09:06 with had had connection with the western
0:09:08 world and they'd know no other ideas so
0:09:10 just
0:09:11 keep going yeah like i mentioned at the
0:09:13 beginning there's a lot of similarities
0:09:15 to islam in terms of theology yes maybe
0:09:19 other things are more similar to
0:09:21 hinduism
0:09:22 but theology is pretty much
0:09:24 right but his
0:09:26 word is important
0:09:28 because there are some attributes of god
0:09:30 and the way they describe
0:09:33 god
0:09:35 relative to the gurus
0:09:37 guru nanak in particular
0:09:39 which would be incompatible with the
0:09:41 islamic theology
0:09:42 um how they describe him as like a drop
0:09:44 in the in the ocean and then god is like
0:09:47 the ocean and and the guru nanak is like
0:09:49 at the drop you see so it's almost and
0:09:52 what i mean by that is it's almost like
0:09:54 an interconnectedness
0:09:56 with the guru and god of this this kind
0:09:59 of thing would be out of line with the
0:10:01 islamic theology yeah i would say is
0:10:05 one chance is um
0:10:06 so the theology
0:10:08 is if it's part of
0:10:10 what islam believes yes but it's not all
0:10:13 of yeah so there's
0:10:15 so there are lots of continuities it's a
0:10:18 lot of overlap in the sense that they
0:10:19 talk about god and eternal uh he's
0:10:22 eternal the pre-eternal person
0:10:24 and the creator of everything all these
0:10:26 things are clearly um
0:10:28 you know continuities with the islamic
0:10:30 religion yeah yeah so the world man
0:10:33 tries like i say is part of the six
0:10:35 daily prayers
0:10:36 it is taught
0:10:39 to young six children and a form of this
0:10:42 is from it forms the basic
0:10:45 the basis of
0:10:46 sick belief
0:10:48 some of the you are you're asking
0:10:51 what would you use yeah so some of the
0:10:53 worst
0:10:54 words they use in the moral mantra is uh
0:10:57 like i said it's
0:10:58 called the more mantra yeah more
0:10:59 manchester more more more more
0:11:03 small yeah
0:11:06 mantra yeah okay
0:11:08 i don't really know how they pronounce
0:11:09 it but yeah
0:11:10 that's already
0:11:11 so it conquered like as i mentioned
0:11:13 before there's only one god
0:11:15 uh
0:11:16 you know in phraseology it's quite
0:11:18 similar to
0:11:19 allah right yes yes okay um
0:11:22 the satnam which is uh the no the name
0:11:25 is the truth the
0:11:26 truth er
0:11:30 which is the creator
0:11:32 which is he is the greatest way okay and
0:11:36 need help
0:11:38 no fair
0:11:39 no fear yes okay i don't i really know
0:11:43 what does that mean but
0:11:44 uh nearby
0:11:46 no hatred
0:11:47 no haters
0:11:51 immortal without form
0:11:54 yeah
0:11:55 arjuni beyond birth and this
0:11:58 uh yeah that's
0:12:00 right in a sense
0:12:02 [Music]
0:12:08 uh set assistant
0:12:10 and good person
0:12:12 by the guru's grace
0:12:14 it's like
0:12:15 what we say um
0:12:19 yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah good point
0:12:22 all right is that all you got all um
0:12:26 i mean i can go on yeah
0:12:30 we also believe that
0:12:31 guru created the universe like i
0:12:32 mentioned
0:12:33 in the world and everything every life
0:12:37 platforms within
0:12:39 six believed that before the universe
0:12:40 existed there was only one guru
0:12:43 and
0:12:44 it was because of
0:12:46 of his will or
0:12:48 the will of god
0:12:50 meaning hukum in
0:12:52 punjabi that the universe was created
0:12:56 they believe in the oneness of creation
0:12:58 that
0:12:59 guru created the world and his part
0:13:02 and is part of this creation
0:13:04 he sustains the world and he's
0:13:06 responsible for everything we need in it
0:13:09 therefore sikhs believe that they have a
0:13:11 duty to respect and protect the world
0:13:16 there are no creation stories in sikhism
0:13:18 unlike in in other other religions such
0:13:21 as
0:13:22 christianity or hinduism
0:13:25 for example
0:13:27 christianity teaches adam and eve
0:13:31 but for sikhs
0:13:33 because they believe
0:13:35 the guru granth sahib so the book
0:13:37 is more focused on the nature of
0:13:39 vaheguru of god
0:13:42 they don't really care if
0:13:44 they would take the
0:13:46 big bang theory as the
0:13:49 basis of existence so they don't really
0:13:51 have
0:13:52 but i think it's important to note here
0:13:53 as well
0:13:55 that the guru grant sahib does actually
0:13:56 make
0:13:58 does actually make points about nature
0:14:00 very famously i think it and
0:14:03 i think this is where it says that
0:14:04 there's a certain amount of species
0:14:07 in the world
0:14:09 i'm not sure how many it says but it
0:14:11 does actually give a number
0:14:15 there's something about this is more in
0:14:16 the reincarnation thing how this this
0:14:19 thing of like there's 8.4 million
0:14:21 different reincarnations that you can
0:14:22 have yes so they count the human being
0:14:25 as one of that 8.4 million which
0:14:27 indicates that there's
0:14:28 that many species as well i guess
0:14:30 that'll be the implication yeah so it's
0:14:32 so some because you've got to remember
0:14:34 that a lot when you're reading this
0:14:35 information it's coming from sources
0:14:37 which are seek themselves and so they
0:14:39 want to present it as if it has no
0:14:41 connection with
0:14:43 the natural world because it acts as a
0:14:45 doubt to a lot of their their followers
0:14:49 when they say okay it's got 8.4 million
0:14:52 species one of the implications
0:14:54 in that case what we'll have to do is
0:14:56 find nine million and then in which case
0:14:58 you have you know maybe a contradiction
0:15:00 here depends on how it depending on how
0:15:02 we describe a species and there can be a
0:15:04 discussion i'm not saying this is a way
0:15:06 to disprove a book or it's not whatever
0:15:08 but what i am saying is it's not a book
0:15:11 which seems to be deplete from making
0:15:14 naturalistic references
0:15:16 it does make naturalistic references
0:15:18 maybe not elaborative uh
0:15:21 ones or stories of narratives
0:15:24 but it does make naturalistic references
0:15:26 yeah keep going
0:15:28 so i'm going to read part of the
0:15:30 the guru granth sahib and
0:15:33 um so about the creation and yes
0:15:36 so he established he established the
0:15:38 earth the sky and the air and the water
0:15:42 of the oceans fire and food
0:15:44 he created the moon the stars and the
0:15:46 sun
0:15:47 night and day and mountains he blessed
0:15:50 the trees and flowers with
0:15:52 three blessed trees with flowers and
0:15:54 fruits he created the gods human beings
0:15:57 and the seven seas he established the
0:15:59 three world world
0:16:02 wars sorry
0:16:07 the six also believe that guru is nergon
0:16:10 like i mentioned before is transcendent
0:16:13 genderless uh
0:16:15 is
0:16:17 in in fable in the future
0:16:20 no no
0:16:21 like a
0:16:22 you cannot be put into words
0:16:25 [Music]
0:16:26 is beyond any human explanation
0:16:30 so they use
0:16:32 that's why they use
0:16:34 many different names to to get a better
0:16:37 understanding of
0:16:38 nature
0:16:48 so uh
0:16:52 so they also believe that uh
0:16:55 vaheguru is sargon imminent
0:16:58 and so everything in the universe has a
0:17:00 vaheguru's presence in it
0:17:03 this means that our gurukus
0:17:05 for his creation and this is this is the
0:17:07 point this is this is a point of
0:17:09 difference between them and islam
0:17:11 because
0:17:13 pretty much all the credible schools of
0:17:15 thought with the exception of very few
0:17:17 don't believe that god is mixed in with
0:17:20 in essence with his creation
0:17:22 that he's
0:17:24 this is the phrase that the
0:17:26 you know the companions of the price
0:17:28 predecessors used to use which is that
0:17:30 he's distinguished from the creation
0:17:35 but
0:17:36 clearly this is this omni this physical
0:17:38 omni
0:17:39 uh
0:17:40 presence
0:17:41 of god
0:17:43 call it physical but you know this
0:17:45 uh
0:17:46 essential omnipresence of god is
0:17:49 something which
0:17:51 is a clear
0:17:52 this you know differentiator the islamic
0:17:55 theology and the sikh theology yeah
0:17:59 so yeah they believe
0:18:01 he cares about his creation and
0:18:04 everything in it
0:18:05 everything that changed and happens in
0:18:07 the world is because of
0:18:09 hukum uh
0:18:10 will basically yeah
0:18:26 it enables him to reveal himself to
0:18:28 human beings yeah um
0:18:31 so the they believe he was part of them
0:18:33 in the form of like divine spark yes
0:18:38 in guru granth sahib 290 says he
0:18:41 possesses all the qualities he's
0:18:42 transcendent to all qualities perfect
0:18:45 our brother is uh
0:18:48 one second
0:18:53 you know that guy
0:18:55 from america
0:18:56 so he's going to join us as well as that
0:18:58 is that okay yeah yes i'm just going to
0:18:59 quickly bring him in
0:19:03 yeah keep going keep going
0:19:05 um
0:19:06 can i go through human life
0:19:21 the volume is low i think
0:19:25 yes
0:19:29 yeah it's still not still low
0:19:33 yeah please
0:19:34 uh in that time we'll just uh
0:19:36 someone's making a contribution so i'm
0:19:38 just gonna let them continue okay
0:19:41 yeah
0:19:43 uh the next the next thing i'll go is uh
0:19:46 human life but he's gonna do it
0:19:49 okay no problem i can talk about before
0:19:51 you do it we'll get his take on it so
0:19:53 every time we do the kaggle gets take on
0:19:55 it so we add that
0:19:57 yeah
0:20:00 yeah yeah
0:20:02 [Applause]
0:20:04 ahmad
0:20:09 still it's still quite low
0:20:14 okay so when he speaks we're going to
0:20:16 put the camper of the microphone
0:20:19 uh to him
0:20:21 let's bring the right from that
0:20:23 okay yeah all right
0:20:26 loud speaker as well mine's up here
0:20:28 because it sounds like it's coming off
0:20:30 the phone speaking
0:20:33 i don't know man no mine's at the
0:20:35 highest level
0:20:43 so that's the first category of gods
0:20:45 yeah so will you what's the category
0:20:57 rituals and reincarnation all right yeah
0:20:59 fine uh probably the recognition of
0:21:01 scriptures yeah but what is do you say
0:21:04 basically leaving one god
0:21:06 yeah so
0:21:09 let me let me the connection between the
0:21:10 god and the gurus i don't understand
0:21:13 are you going to talk about that
0:21:16 the with the guru is like no
0:21:19 he's doing the scriptures
0:21:21 so who who were the authors and that
0:21:23 stuff
0:21:24 we'll get there we'll get
0:21:26 you there
0:21:27 look at his uh
0:21:37 all right we're gonna start again
0:21:38 brother yeah okay look uh we just just
0:21:40 to fill you in so this is your turn to
0:21:42 speak ahmed
0:21:44 uh or just just to fill you in bro uh we
0:21:47 have just spoken about
0:21:49 the sikh conception of god what are your
0:21:52 contributions on this front what are the
0:21:54 similarities and differences between the
0:21:55 sikh conception of god
0:21:57 and the islamic one
0:22:02 okay
0:22:06 yes so
0:22:08 sikhism is a is a religion which a lot
0:22:11 of people say takes ideas from both
0:22:13 hinduism and islam
0:22:15 that it takes the idea of monotheism
0:22:18 from islam but it also takes the idea of
0:22:21 pantheism from hinduism so sikhs
0:22:24 sikhism generally they believe that um
0:22:27 everything is god
0:22:29 um that the laptop is god um
0:22:32 but there's also an argument that some
0:22:34 sikh scholars make some of the educated
0:22:37 sikh scholars their philosophers
0:22:40 who try to argue
0:22:41 somewhat of a similar idea
0:22:43 as hinduism in that there is one god
0:22:46 but that in every moment that god is
0:22:50 creating he is sustaining things so
0:22:52 um they argue that the uneducated sikhs
0:22:56 believe that god is in everything but in
0:22:59 reality it's just that god is sustaining
0:23:02 everything so um like el biruni what we
0:23:05 mentioned last week how he made the
0:23:07 distinction
0:23:08 between how the educated people view god
0:23:10 in a religion and the uneducated
0:23:13 there is an argument that one can make
0:23:15 that the educated sikhs believe that
0:23:17 there is one being
0:23:19 who is kind of responsible for
0:23:21 everything
0:23:22 maintaining everything
0:23:24 and that the uneducated people just
0:23:26 because they cannot conceptualize what
0:23:28 that actually means
0:23:29 they believe that god is actually in
0:23:32 everything so um i i think that's an
0:23:35 important point that uh
0:23:37 that maybe we might need to look into a
0:23:39 bit more
0:23:40 what's the relationship between god and
0:23:42 the guru
0:23:44 um because there have been analogies
0:23:45 that have been made
0:23:47 um to the to the
0:23:50 that go along the lines of that this the
0:23:53 guru nanak is like a drop in the ocean
0:23:56 and the ocean is a god
0:23:59 so what is the relationship between god
0:24:00 and guru nanak
0:24:02 it it's a complicated one which um i
0:24:06 would need to study a bit more but
0:24:08 um
0:24:09 some people argue that it's really i
0:24:11 think guru gobind singh the last guru
0:24:14 who really creates the theology of the
0:24:16 religion who's the one who's most
0:24:18 responsible
0:24:19 um
0:24:20 because i know that
0:24:21 i'm not sure how how strong the argument
0:24:24 is but some do argue that guru nanak was
0:24:26 a muslim and that he held orthodox
0:24:29 beliefs
0:24:30 but the relationship between the gurus
0:24:32 and god is one i think that needs to be
0:24:34 explored a bit more and i think that the
0:24:37 the common narrative
0:24:38 that's been pre that's been created that
0:24:41 the gurus are are the gods and stuff um
0:24:43 i i don't buy that at all and i think
0:24:46 we need to do a bit more research on
0:24:48 that okay
0:24:49 uh the next thing we want to discuss was
0:24:52 uh scriptures right
0:24:53 so if we could just have the
0:24:56 presentation from the
0:24:57 tarq and inshallah we can then have your
0:25:01 opinion ahmed okay
0:25:03 okay
0:25:05 you'll be able to hear what's been said
0:25:07 sure
0:25:08 the the central religious scripture of
0:25:10 the sikh religion is known as
0:25:13 the adi grant or first scripture it is
0:25:16 more
0:25:17 more commonly known as the guru granth
0:25:20 sahib
0:25:21 i'll be referring to it as the ggs
0:25:24 the scripture contains sacred hymns
0:25:26 written by the ten gurus or teachers of
0:25:29 sikhism
0:25:30 as well as teachings from people of
0:25:32 other faith groups
0:25:33 the ggs contains 5867
0:25:37 sacred hymns or shah bats
0:25:42 its first rendition was compiled by guru
0:25:46 arjun and completed in 1604
0:25:49 and placed in the golden temple of
0:25:51 amritsar
0:25:53 the six believed that the ggs is more
0:25:56 than just a scripture
0:25:58 sikhs can consider the ggs to be a
0:26:00 living guru and their current and
0:26:03 perpetual master
0:26:05 when six are in the presence of the ggs
0:26:07 they must behave in a respectful manner
0:26:10 and remove their shoes and women must
0:26:14 cover their heads
0:26:15 all must refrain from raucous behavior
0:26:18 while in the presence of the ggs
0:26:22 the text of the ggs is written in
0:26:24 gurmukhi a dialect of the punjabi
0:26:27 language
0:26:30 the words of the hymns or shahbaz are
0:26:32 called gurbani which translates as words
0:26:36 of the gurus
0:26:38 at the beginning of every section of the
0:26:40 ggs there is a declaration called the
0:26:43 mool mantar
0:26:44 this
0:26:45 recitation proclaims that
0:26:48 there is only one god who is the creator
0:26:50 he is without fear and without hate
0:26:53 he is immortal and without form
0:26:56 he can be reached through the mercy and
0:26:58 grace of the guru
0:27:01 this small mantra is believed to be the
0:27:03 first revelation given to the guru nanak
0:27:07 copies of the ggs are kept in the
0:27:09 gurdwara of this or sikh temple
0:27:13 at the end of each day the copy of the
0:27:15 ggs is taken to an elaborate
0:27:18 in an in an elaborate procession
0:27:20 uh to a special room where it is laid on
0:27:23 a bed to rest for the night
0:27:28 on special occasions the entire ggs is
0:27:31 red in its entirety allowed and this
0:27:35 takes approximately 48 hours of
0:27:37 recitation this this is known as the
0:27:40 current path
0:27:42 beautiful thanks so much
0:27:44 can you tell us more about the ggs and
0:27:46 can you tell us more about how they
0:27:48 understand it in divine terms if if that
0:27:50 is indeed how they understand it
0:27:54 yeah so just um just a couple of
0:27:56 thoughts i want to share about the text
0:27:59 you know the text begins you know the
0:28:00 beginning of the guru granth sahib
0:28:02 starts by by describing god it says that
0:28:05 god you know the one supreme being
0:28:07 truth is his name the creator primal
0:28:10 being without fear and without enmity
0:28:13 the timeless verity unincarnated in
0:28:15 self-existence known through his grace
0:28:19 um
0:28:20 so when you read through portions of the
0:28:22 buddhism guru granth sahib you see a lot
0:28:25 of these verses about monotheism the
0:28:27 idea that god is not created that he is
0:28:30 omnipotent and infinite and i think
0:28:33 again
0:28:34 we're dealing with a situation very
0:28:36 similar with hinduism where the earliest
0:28:39 texts themselves are very clear that
0:28:42 it's referring to this monotheistic
0:28:44 being
0:28:45 but it's only later with the addition of
0:28:47 new with new additions with for example
0:28:50 with guru granth uh guru gobind singh
0:28:53 the last guru
0:28:54 and i think with many of their scholars
0:28:56 and stuff are these ideas of pantheism
0:28:59 being associated with it the idea is
0:29:01 that the gurus themselves are god or
0:29:04 that the scripture itself is a
0:29:06 manifestation of god i think these
0:29:09 things they don't necessarily align with
0:29:11 what the earliest versions of the text
0:29:13 are saying and i think if we had to
0:29:15 choose between the two i think
0:29:17 ultimately we'd choose the text so
0:29:20 um i think if we if we spend a little
0:29:22 bit time going through the text itself
0:29:25 um we can see that you know it appears
0:29:28 to indicate you know a form of
0:29:29 monotheism and not a form of pantheism
0:29:32 or pananthism the only issue here is
0:29:35 when we're talking about when we talked
0:29:36 about the strategy with hindus
0:29:39 talking about the text
0:29:41 made a little bit of sense because
0:29:42 talking about the text is okay this was
0:29:44 before the quran which is the final
0:29:45 revelation
0:29:46 here speaking about the scripture makes
0:29:49 no sense whatsoever because
0:29:51 we believe this is a fabrication 100
0:29:54 because it has come after the quran and
0:29:55 the quran has claimed to be the final
0:29:57 revelation
0:29:58 and so yeah
0:30:00 and so and so the the strategy of using
0:30:03 you know the the ggs as i say look this
0:30:05 is what it says in your book
0:30:07 i feel like we should completely not use
0:30:09 that strategy because it will be
0:30:11 legitimizing this book which we believe
0:30:13 is i agree yeah i agree but one of the
0:30:16 things i think we should mention i think
0:30:18 would be interesting is going back to
0:30:20 this point that perhaps guru nanak um
0:30:24 looking into the reasons was guru nanak
0:30:26 i mean you know something which is quite
0:30:27 fascinating is that
0:30:30 if you can read this in the book uh the
0:30:31 sikh faith uh it's called
0:30:34 the seek faith a universal message
0:30:36 uh i i read it so are you talking yes
0:30:38 sir okay
0:30:41 and he talked about how guru nanak you
0:30:42 know studied in the madrasa
0:30:44 you know he sat with some of the man he
0:30:47 was studying and he was familiar with
0:30:50 islamic teachings
0:30:54 i have it right here
0:30:56 the seek faith a universal message
0:30:59 by gore
0:31:01 singh g u r
0:31:06 so just to be clear what you're saying
0:31:08 is saying before he
0:31:10 formed his own religion obviously not a
0:31:12 muslim anymore famously said no hinduism
0:31:15 no islam or
0:31:16 right before that happened before that
0:31:18 happened he was you're saying that there
0:31:20 could be a claim that an argument could
0:31:22 be made a historical argument that he
0:31:23 was
0:31:24 if not a muslim he was influenced by
0:31:26 islamic teachings quite strongly in his
0:31:28 uh place
0:31:30 of residence
0:31:31 yeah definitely and um i actually have
0:31:33 the page number here it's page 21.
0:31:36 um if anybody's interested in trying to
0:31:38 open up the book but it's one of the
0:31:40 arguments um you know i live in a city
0:31:43 where
0:31:45 percent of the people here are sick
0:31:47 and in my neighborhood specifically i
0:31:49 think it's close to eighty percent so um
0:31:52 you know i'm always conversing with the
0:31:53 sikhs and they have a very good idea
0:31:56 about islam and the reason why is
0:31:58 because guru nanak was very familiar
0:32:00 right they they have the story and their
0:32:02 tradition that guru nanak what what city
0:32:05 is that by the way
0:32:06 sixty percent of the people are sick
0:32:09 so it's uh yeah in vancouver because my
0:32:12 family lives in vancouver i moved to
0:32:13 berkeley but in vancouver there's a city
0:32:16 called surrey uh which is very similar
0:32:18 to brampton in toronto so
0:32:21 um
0:32:22 yeah so so my whole neighborhood is
0:32:24 familiar with this but um there's this
0:32:27 contention that some people mentioned
0:32:29 that guru nanak actually went to umrah
0:32:31 that he went to mecca i think that claim
0:32:34 uh is unsubstantive i don't really think
0:32:36 we have evidence for it but the
0:32:38 relationship between guru nanak and
0:32:40 islam and how some could make the
0:32:42 argument that guru nanak was actually a
0:32:44 muslim but then later
0:32:46 sikhs and stuff came and they kind of
0:32:48 took his ideas and created a new
0:32:50 religion because look many of his ideas
0:32:52 for example of growing the beard and
0:32:54 stuff really come from islam and so
0:32:57 uh
0:32:58 islam has a huge influence on sikhism
0:33:00 and the re one reason being specifically
0:33:02 that guru nanak studied
0:33:05 and he was with muslims and his i
0:33:07 believe his chief
0:33:09 his servant or whoever traveled with him
0:33:11 everywhere was also a muslim as well i
0:33:13 think what's important to also outline
0:33:16 here is the fact that because some will
0:33:18 say
0:33:18 using a tuku
0:33:20 type reasoning
0:33:21 that well look at islam and how
0:33:23 connected it is with the judaic
0:33:26 christian tradition how how many
0:33:27 continuities and overlaps
0:33:29 can be made or between those religions
0:33:33 and we i think if we're going down that
0:33:35 route of saying that it was a
0:33:37 amalgamate
0:33:39 you know amalgam of uh
0:33:41 uh of of islam and hinduism
0:33:45 clearly we can make that argument but we
0:33:46 have to make the distinction here that
0:33:48 islam
0:33:49 gives credit
0:33:51 to the previous dispensations it says
0:33:53 that there were
0:33:54 previous dispensations they were you
0:33:56 know that were people that were revealed
0:33:58 uh god revealed it to them and then the
0:34:00 so there was there's a narrative which
0:34:02 is consistent
0:34:04 with the previous dispensations whereas
0:34:06 we're here
0:34:07 you're not seeing the same thing you're
0:34:09 seeing basically
0:34:10 uh there isn't credit given to the
0:34:12 prophet muhammad as the final prophet
0:34:14 which is our narrative because obviously
0:34:15 they believe that he was the final
0:34:17 prophet and what he was speaking was
0:34:18 truth
0:34:19 that they couldn't be sikhs by
0:34:21 definition
0:34:22 and so you've cancelled out the fact
0:34:23 that this could be from god
0:34:26 and that what he was saying was true
0:34:28 because he said he's a final prophet
0:34:30 but then
0:34:32 it's how is it so common coincidental
0:34:35 that all of many of your rituals many of
0:34:36 your
0:34:38 many of the things the phrases in your
0:34:39 book
0:34:41 are just in line with the quran and
0:34:42 sunnah
0:34:44 your theological conceptions
0:34:46 how you just define god or so much of
0:34:48 them are in line with the quran
0:34:50 even the 5ks
0:34:52 a lot of them
0:34:53 even the hymns the fact that you chant
0:34:55 your even the way you deal with your
0:34:57 book
0:34:58 all of those things are in line
0:35:01 there are similarities there
0:35:03 i i completely agree with you and i
0:35:05 think that's one difficulty we have with
0:35:07 sikhism is this idea that it emerged
0:35:10 after islam and since we know that so
0:35:14 in a sense we can't affirm you know the
0:35:16 validity of their scripture and stuff
0:35:18 um
0:35:19 one thing i do want to mention just from
0:35:20 this book i just want to read the short
0:35:22 quote that i think
0:35:24 is quite interesting
0:35:25 is that it says it says quote
0:35:28 he studied both in the hindu temples and
0:35:30 also in the muslim madrasas after he had
0:35:34 this is referring to guru nanak yes
0:35:35 after he had read the scriptures of
0:35:37 these religions
0:35:38 guru nanak felt that there could not be
0:35:40 two separate gods
0:35:42 one for the hindus and one for the
0:35:44 muslims as claimed by the people
0:35:47 he declared that there is only one god
0:35:49 for all of humanity who loved people
0:35:52 irrespective of whatever names they gave
0:35:54 to their faith
0:35:56 and so we can love him by any name
0:35:59 so
0:36:00 i think the interesting point to mention
0:36:02 here is that guru nanak himself it seems
0:36:05 had you know he affirmed kind of the
0:36:07 prophecy of the prophet sallallahu
0:36:09 alaihi
0:36:10 you know he might have had some
0:36:11 perennial views in some sort but he he
0:36:14 did affirm the prophecy of the prophet
0:36:17 and so i think um in our dawah that
0:36:19 that's why so what's the most explicit
0:36:21 thing what's the most explicit thing
0:36:23 where he affirms the prophecy of the
0:36:24 prophet muhammad
0:36:26 that you know um
0:36:28 i don't have a specific but do you know
0:36:30 at least what do you know at least in
0:36:32 what context that he affirms the
0:36:34 prophecy of the prophet muhammad because
0:36:36 if he does affirm it then one of the
0:36:38 things that prophet muhammad said is
0:36:39 that he's a final prophet right and that
0:36:41 the quran is the final revelation so how
0:36:43 does he deal with that conundrum
0:36:46 that's something
0:36:47 this book it seems i i don't i don't
0:36:50 think it delves too deep into it so it
0:36:52 would require a little bit more research
0:36:54 and figuring out
0:36:55 what and figuring out what exactly his
0:36:58 his view on because i do believe he
0:37:00 believed the prophet sallam was divine
0:37:02 he was a prophet but um
0:37:04 did that necessarily mean that this that
0:37:06 he had to follow the sharia of the
0:37:08 prophet that the prophet but it's not
0:37:10 just
0:37:12 not just yeah exactly so
0:37:13 yeah
0:37:14 if he was a true prophet then all of the
0:37:16 narratives relating to his infallibility
0:37:18 that he's a true prophet that speaks on
0:37:19 behalf of god would be true and in which
0:37:21 case you know he would have no claim to
0:37:24 revelation from god
0:37:26 which is what he did claim when he went
0:37:27 into the sea or
0:37:28 when he came back in the famous story
0:37:31 all right let's move on to the next part
0:37:33 let's let's delve a little bit deeper
0:37:36 into their
0:37:37 eschatological conceptions and
0:37:39 reincarnation
0:37:40 what have you found with that
0:37:43 yeah so
0:37:44 once again in this area there rings a
0:37:46 lot of similarities with uh with
0:37:48 hinduism discussed in the previous
0:37:49 session
0:37:51 um they have a similar idea of
0:37:52 reincarnation they use the same term the
0:37:54 cycle of samsara the life cycle the idea
0:37:57 that you die and you and you're reborn
0:37:59 into a new body and you die you're
0:38:01 reborn into a new
0:38:02 body they also believe that there's a
0:38:05 sort of relationship between the souls
0:38:07 so those souls that were together in the
0:38:09 previous life are together in the next
0:38:11 life um and for polemical reasons they
0:38:13 will use this as sort of
0:38:15 as an argument too from their standpoint
0:38:17 anyways to answer is death the odyssey
0:38:19 so that's how they deal with the problem
0:38:20 of evil as well and so as far as
0:38:22 engagements that's like a
0:38:24 something to keep an eye on on this
0:38:25 point i just want to kind of add just
0:38:28 think of the likelihood that a religion
0:38:30 that claims to be real from god
0:38:32 has the exact
0:38:34 uh conceptions
0:38:37 of the two major religion that exists in
0:38:39 this province
0:38:41 hinduism islam
0:38:42 why those two in particular like
0:38:44 hinduism in islam why not judaism
0:38:47 why not
0:38:50 african tribal religion okay a mayan
0:38:53 civilizational religion uh babylonian
0:38:55 religion why why are
0:38:57 why is it not an amalgam of those things
0:39:00 it's very clearly a joke you can see
0:39:02 here what's going on
0:39:04 he's he's making choices uh nanakis of
0:39:08 what what to include in his religion was
0:39:09 not
0:39:10 oh this is from hinduism it sounds nice
0:39:12 he prefers that to the hell heaven and
0:39:13 hell conception um you know the uh this
0:39:17 one's uh this one is uh sounds more
0:39:19 coherent maybe to him
0:39:21 uh the one god thesis
0:39:24 let's mix that up a little bit you know
0:39:26 it's clearly i mean it can't be
0:39:29 that both of these only these two
0:39:32 are the ones that are true
0:39:34 only these two forget about the rest of
0:39:36 the world civilizations right we are the
0:39:38 africans and the mayans and the
0:39:39 europeans and the scandinavians and the
0:39:41 vikings forget about all those it has to
0:39:43 be just the ones in india very indian
0:39:45 specific context here punjab
0:39:48 specific concept yeah
0:39:49 yes yep
0:39:51 um well i i think going back to it the
0:39:53 reason why you probably believe in this
0:39:55 is because he only studied in a madras
0:39:58 in a hindu temple so
0:40:00 i think that i don't think he had a
0:40:02 knowledge of comparative religion just
0:40:04 these two because he studied them
0:40:06 formally and he just tried to synthesize
0:40:09 the two so that i think that's why yeah
0:40:10 yeah
0:40:11 continue please yeah just
0:40:13 so i would also concur that i think it's
0:40:15 quite clear that he basically
0:40:17 just merged together the things that he
0:40:18 had at his disposal but the similarities
0:40:20 don't stop there because they also
0:40:21 believe in similar to the hindus that
0:40:23 they believe all souls have what they
0:40:24 call an atma which is
0:40:26 it's called an atoma yeah which is a
0:40:28 divine spark which is a term that some
0:40:30 people use now as well
0:40:33 so they believe that this is this divine
0:40:35 spark is a part of the the wahi guru
0:40:39 so this is also like what's that the
0:40:42 that's the god right so it's a divine
0:40:44 spark within every single person right
0:40:46 and that's what goes in it dies and it
0:40:48 comes back and all that type of thing
0:40:50 but
0:40:50 guru nanak he spoke about that divine
0:40:52 spark and used it to argue for
0:40:55 you know uh at least this house seeks to
0:40:56 present it oneness of humanity you know
0:40:59 this is the the ideal that everybody can
0:41:01 get to god you know his famous statement
0:41:02 about you know there's no hindu there's
0:41:03 no muslim there's just you know i'm just
0:41:05 on my path to god kind of thing so from
0:41:07 that standpoint it
0:41:08 almost appears very liberal um but you
0:41:11 do have that idea so that's what dies
0:41:12 and lives on and that type of thing so
0:41:15 uh
0:41:17 the body that the atom is born into is
0:41:19 determined by the karma
0:41:21 from the previous life which is another
0:41:22 similarity with hinduism
0:41:24 the highest possible being on earth is
0:41:26 the human being
0:41:27 and then you've got this 8.4 million
0:41:30 other ones that you could that you can
0:41:32 sort of incarnate into so there's a
0:41:33 question about what those species are
0:41:36 and what and what that's that's i'm not
0:41:38 sure how sikhs will explain right
0:41:39 because now are we excluding bacteria
0:41:42 you know what is included and what is
0:41:44 not included in 8.4 million because
0:41:47 and and how was the categorization is it
0:41:48 species we talked about kinds or we're
0:41:50 talking about animal where
0:41:51 uh living forms so we're talking about
0:41:53 you know
0:41:55 so and if we are then it's gonna be more
0:41:57 than 8.4
0:41:59 depends on how you categorize or
0:42:00 classify it but yeah yeah so um
0:42:04 so they'll say that you know if you're a
0:42:05 human being that gives absorb an extra a
0:42:08 kick to your life let's say you've got
0:42:09 lucky so if you're a human being and
0:42:11 it's likely that whatever you were doing
0:42:13 in your previous life you did something
0:42:14 right because you've managed to make it
0:42:15 to the highest level because obviously
0:42:16 the probabilities so so we have the same
0:42:18 issues now with reincarnation if you're
0:42:20 an ant how do you be good at a good ant
0:42:22 yeah cockroach how you become a good
0:42:24 cockroach or a rat how do you become a
0:42:26 good rat yeah i i read i read something
0:42:28 um i lift up if the brother can confirm
0:42:30 this but that they actually don't
0:42:32 attribute it's the problem is actually a
0:42:33 bit harder for them because they
0:42:34 explicitly don't attribute moral agency
0:42:36 to animals all right yes yeah which is
0:42:38 even worse how do you become how did you
0:42:40 graduate from uh being an aunt
0:42:42 to being maybe i don't know grasshopper
0:42:44 or something yes i mean you know
0:42:46 it's i don't know which one of those is
0:42:48 worse but
0:42:49 maybe the ant is more i would say it's
0:42:50 more and that was very high level
0:42:52 actually yeah fast wars yeah it takes
0:42:55 yeah
0:42:56 once again what's the criteria of
0:42:58 superiority
0:43:01 because because if i was if i was a
0:43:03 if i was an ant and there was you know
0:43:06 lots of people were
0:43:08 going to stamp on me
0:43:09 i wouldn't want to be them
0:43:13 you know
0:43:14 but if i was
0:43:15 you know but it's true but if i was a
0:43:18 dog
0:43:19 but i was you know one of the top dogs
0:43:21 i'd want to be a top dog you know a lion
0:43:24 if a lion had no food once again it goes
0:43:25 back to the issues
0:43:26 an impoverished animal of a high what
0:43:29 about if you're a disabled human being
0:43:32 and then you have the issues of fatalism
0:43:33 again
0:43:35 this person is then you can blame the
0:43:37 child for being
0:43:38 disabled and so on yeah so from the same
0:43:41 thing so they they have
0:43:43 um it's it's
0:43:46 what it appears to be anyways is that
0:43:47 guru nanak apparently spoke out against
0:43:48 the caste system but there are aspects
0:43:50 of it that kind of still stayed in so
0:43:52 typically that they are ex it's an
0:43:54 expectation that you would marry within
0:43:56 your caste
0:43:57 um when they would build their their
0:43:59 gurudwara which is like their their most
0:44:01 of their place but they certainly were
0:44:02 against where the indies were yeah so it
0:44:04 was it was it wasn't that explicit but
0:44:06 there's still remnants of that um once
0:44:09 you go through this life cycle you get
0:44:10 sort of yeah multi which is uh unity
0:44:13 again with that divine being so very
0:44:14 similar to hinduism so you you get with
0:44:16 nirvana or you
0:44:18 i i didn't come across this term but
0:44:20 yeah they talk about you go back you
0:44:22 kind of
0:44:22 go back into the unity so that that
0:44:24 phrase of like the cup and the water
0:44:26 it's not just with him like they
0:44:27 attribute that to anyone that's got that
0:44:29 atmosphere you go back into
0:44:31 but then you've got another issue
0:44:33 again which we discussed in the previous
0:44:34 session which is that well if we're
0:44:36 already
0:44:37 if it's already a pantheistic notion
0:44:38 then what
0:44:40 whatever you do is going to be relevant
0:44:42 to that being the case in other words if
0:44:43 you're a good person it's still going to
0:44:45 be like a drop in the ocean than if
0:44:47 you're a bad person because god is
0:44:48 everywhere and everything is good
0:44:50 so being going to that high level
0:44:53 is going to be irrespective to the
0:44:55 the extent to which human beings
0:44:56 supervise the nature of god
0:44:58 or the vice versa or not
0:45:01 you know anyway yeah there's also a
0:45:04 question about if you're just going to
0:45:05 critique it from a theological
0:45:06 standpoint like what what what exactly
0:45:08 are you not saying about god that like
0:45:10 you've now go you know you know
0:45:12 put god into i don't know how many
0:45:13 different parts and what a part of him
0:45:15 and every single human being yes and
0:45:17 then you know so
0:45:18 is the god now deficient because he's
0:45:19 got parts out of him that are going to
0:45:21 go back to him in the end it's a good
0:45:23 point it goes back to taqib the the
0:45:24 argument from uh taqib that we've made
0:45:27 for the existence of god anything that's
0:45:28 weird our parts are dependent the
0:45:30 universe is made out of parts therefore
0:45:31 the universe is dependent well if this
0:45:33 if this god is made up of parts and
0:45:34 different animals and these kind of
0:45:35 things then he's dependent as well
0:45:37 you know do you want to talk about
0:45:39 rituals as well yes some of these
0:45:40 rituals oh actually
0:45:42 let's see ahmad have you got anything on
0:45:43 reincarnation
0:45:46 um
0:45:48 not necessarily but it's it's the idea
0:45:50 their idea of reincarnation is similar
0:45:52 to the hindu i mean they take it from
0:45:54 hinduism which is
0:45:56 everything that you just mentioned right
0:45:57 if a person is bad in this life then um
0:46:00 they'll be bad in the next life uh the
0:46:02 one thing i i do want to say though is
0:46:04 that um
0:46:06 you know i i had a friend who uh who was
0:46:08 sick who converted to islam and one of
0:46:11 the things they told me is that
0:46:13 um sikhism is not as i says with all
0:46:16 respect but it's not a complete religion
0:46:18 and that after death
0:46:20 the religion is silent almost as if the
0:46:23 religion didn't really create a proper
0:46:26 eschatology of what would happen after
0:46:28 so many of the things that are there
0:46:30 that are taught they're things that they
0:46:32 don't necessarily have problems with so
0:46:34 i once did an
0:46:36 interfaith gathering with sikhs and the
0:46:38 question of death was brought up as to
0:46:41 what happens after you die um and they
0:46:44 were all silent and they all had a
0:46:46 problem with you know their religion
0:46:48 saying of what happens after death and
0:46:51 so i think in the realm of darwin that
0:46:53 might be an
0:46:54 interesting conversation is a
0:46:56 conversation of death
0:46:57 and what happens afterwards because the
0:46:59 idea that we become one with god after
0:47:02 this whole reincarnation cycle doesn't
0:47:03 sit well
0:47:05 with them because they don't believe in
0:47:06 heaven or hell so i think this might be
0:47:08 a nice way to uh to do this this will be
0:47:11 a nice conversation to have with them
0:47:14 yes absolutely now let's move on to rich
0:47:17 thank you for that
0:47:18 let's move on to the last part of uh
0:47:20 today's session which is about rituals
0:47:22 tell us about the 5ks tell us about the
0:47:24 dagger that they have with them you know
0:47:26 that in this country you're allowed to
0:47:27 have by law you're allowed to you know
0:47:29 carry uh people are interested and
0:47:30 intrigued about these things but let's
0:47:32 let's get the basics right what what are
0:47:33 the rituals that we need to know
0:47:37 see i'm sort of about over the brother
0:47:38 that was yeah but from what i was able
0:47:40 to gather one of them was significant
0:47:42 rituals is what they call uh amrit
0:47:45 which is uh it's translated as baptism
0:47:48 but from what i saw it's not it's not
0:47:49 the same place it doesn't involve a
0:47:50 process of getting dipped into
0:47:52 it's like a pool uh you've got five uh
0:47:55 holy seeks who are called um panch piare
0:47:58 i don't know if i'm saying that
0:47:59 correctly we've got a sixth one who saw
0:48:01 sits uh in attendance on the um
0:48:04 the gts uh and this this process takes
0:48:07 place at these five seeks they prepare
0:48:08 some holy water which is called the
0:48:10 amrit
0:48:11 um and then that water is is given to
0:48:14 given to the person and they drink it
0:48:16 and this is they will sing some of the
0:48:17 hymns from the from their book i've got
0:48:20 the names here but i'm not gonna put
0:48:21 everyone through listening to me trying
0:48:22 to pronounce them
0:48:24 they've also got this is now sort of
0:48:26 this issue of the five k's so there was
0:48:29 a the guru who is who is responsible for
0:48:32 the creation of the khalsa which is our
0:48:34 king what is the khalsa just it seems
0:48:36 like that's their conception of like the
0:48:39 community okay the the general community
0:48:42 yeah a similar concept um
0:48:45 and so these five k's
0:48:47 they're they're physical symbols of
0:48:49 faith that are worn by sikhs
0:48:52 um
0:48:54 and so the five of them are is kesh
0:48:57 which is uncut here
0:48:58 kara and that one
0:49:05 which is distilled bracelet kanga which
0:49:07 is a wooden cone uh kacha which is the
0:49:10 cotton underwear and uh kierpin which is
0:49:13 the the still sword so i've got all of
0:49:15 those except for the uh
0:49:17 the uncut thing
0:49:19 i've got wooden actually used to sell
0:49:21 wooden uh combs myself
0:49:23 what happened with that oh that's gonna
0:49:25 happen it was actually get i have to be
0:49:26 honest i was getting the material from
0:49:28 china so i had to close the company
0:49:31 i don't want to be a hypocrite anymore
0:49:34 okay so uh with the um the uncut hair so
0:49:39 there seems to be various reasons that
0:49:40 they do this
0:49:42 the founder which is the the founder of
0:49:44 this this this community uh guru gobind
0:49:46 singh
0:49:47 apparently this was sort of this is the
0:49:49 last he's the last guru right uh i'm not
0:49:52 sure okay i think he might be i think
0:49:55 he apparently
0:49:56 this was his appearance uh this is here
0:49:58 that they should they should um i'm not
0:50:00 sure if this is polemicized or not but
0:50:02 that he should uh the sikh should only
0:50:03 about his head to the guru not to the
0:50:05 baba
0:50:06 uh that's the baba
0:50:08 yeah
0:50:17 [Music]
0:50:19 so a way to differentiate from other
0:50:22 beliefs was
0:50:24 he then he brought this all this i see
0:50:26 yeah
0:50:27 yeah so there is definitely that aspect
0:50:29 they'll say that um the hair is part of
0:50:31 god's creation and are keeping it uncut
0:50:34 indicates that one is willing to
0:50:35 accept god's gift as god intended why
0:50:38 not the nails
0:50:39 oh that's yeah because the nails why not
0:50:41 cut the wire just leave the nails like
0:50:43 that you know
0:50:45 just like the hair
0:50:47 yeah okay yeah
0:50:49 for them it's a symbol of uh both
0:50:50 holiness and strength
0:50:53 but what if it was scientifically shown
0:50:55 that it's less hygienic to have pubic
0:50:57 hair under your arms in in that area
0:51:01 yeah so obviously sikh women as well are
0:51:03 forbidden to cut any body hair or even
0:51:05 to treat them you need to trim their
0:51:06 eyebrows vagina hair for example under
0:51:08 the so we expect
0:51:10 i see women have
0:51:12 hair in the vagina area and they have
0:51:14 hair
0:51:15 sorry to say under the the armpits as
0:51:17 well
0:51:18 and that
0:51:19 what if it's confirmed scientifically
0:51:21 that this kind of thing could cause
0:51:22 problems hygiene related
0:51:27 do you know anything about how they
0:51:28 divorce their wives
0:51:30 you know how does this divorce happen in
0:51:32 sikhism
0:51:36 well like the the guy just sees the hair
0:51:37 has a speed locks and that's not what he
0:51:39 said he did they don't have do they have
0:51:40 talks like system he says
0:51:44 so yeah they can remarry so that they
0:51:45 can divorce only only a few of them can
0:51:49 oh they're not do you know anything
0:51:50 about divorce marriage and divorce yeah
0:51:53 it's it's uh it's something which is uh
0:51:55 highly highly discouraged and it's it's
0:51:58 very difficult to get
0:52:00 um even for a man
0:52:07 they believe that it's a very it's a
0:52:09 very great sin in general for either to
0:52:11 do it and only in like certain
0:52:12 circumstances in classical sikhism um is
0:52:16 one allowed to get a divorce um i think
0:52:19 in today's days though you know many of
0:52:21 them are becoming modern open-minded and
0:52:23 so they're kind of
0:52:24 you know they're going down the road of
0:52:26 divorce but classically it was like it's
0:52:28 like a big it's like in islam also it's
0:52:30 a big sin but for them it's like
0:52:32 it's almost like that christianity idea
0:52:34 that you know the
0:52:35 the woman could just not get a divorce
0:52:38 under any circumstance
0:52:40 yeah i mean islam is not a sin to get
0:52:41 divorced i mean it's still it's yeah
0:52:43 it's highly discouraged but yeah i can
0:52:45 see what you're saying
0:52:47 um and you know the process of how that
0:52:49 works or
0:52:51 um it they have some rituals right they
0:52:54 just open
0:52:55 things in it but it's uh i i don't think
0:52:58 it's uh i think one of the fulham i
0:53:00 think is some information about that
0:53:03 so it says here the citizen does not
0:53:06 give the right of divorce to
0:53:08 its adherence
0:53:09 except in extreme circumstances and even
0:53:12 then
0:53:13 since his knowledge legislated within
0:53:15 sikhism
0:53:17 this is but this is decided by like
0:53:18 western hindu or muslim order courts
0:53:21 okay okay and the guru granth sahib does
0:53:24 not specify
0:53:25 a award
0:53:27 for divorce and this is this act is not
0:53:29 considered in the holy
0:53:31 in the holy grain
0:53:33 right
0:53:34 yeah i wanted to ask ahmad if you have
0:53:36 any information about the gurus can you
0:53:38 take us through guru nanak who are they
0:53:41 up into
0:53:42 the final guru how many of them they
0:53:44 were just a brief outline of who the
0:53:45 gurus were
0:53:48 okay
0:53:49 um so there was there was ten gurus
0:53:52 um
0:53:53 and i i think classically these were
0:53:55 understood as kind of like their
0:53:56 prophets or their sages and i think with
0:53:59 later teachings they kind of some of
0:54:01 them began to be associated with gods or
0:54:03 different manifestations of god but so
0:54:05 they have these ten messengers
0:54:07 essentially they believe that their
0:54:09 message was kind of timeless um it will
0:54:12 always be relevant um it's a form of
0:54:14 like internal wisdom
0:54:16 um and they're they're here to break you
0:54:18 know the caste system the bigotry the
0:54:20 superstition on all of these things
0:54:23 so
0:54:24 somewhat similar to the idea of a of a
0:54:26 nabi so there was ten of them and then
0:54:29 ultimately it culminated with the tenth
0:54:31 one which was the guru gobind who was
0:54:33 really the one who created the theology
0:54:35 many of the theology
0:54:38 did any of them engage in warfare did
0:54:40 they get into polygamous marriages is
0:54:42 there anything interesting that you want
0:54:43 to tell us about any of the gurus
0:54:46 so when you when you study mobile
0:54:47 history you find that
0:54:50 sikhism is largely a pacifistic religion
0:54:53 until their relationship with the moguls
0:54:57 um
0:54:57 and you know their relationship with
0:54:59 orenzei
0:55:00 jahan jahangir
0:55:02 um and seeks traditionally in their
0:55:05 narrative they they believed that the
0:55:07 sikhs were persecuted because of their
0:55:09 religion
0:55:10 whereas in fact if you read many of the
0:55:12 many modern scholars today people like
0:55:15 parjo obarai who's a sick himself they
0:55:18 really denounce this idea that the
0:55:19 mughals fought them solely because of
0:55:21 their religion it was more so that you
0:55:23 know they were a threat to the state
0:55:25 politically and so the mughals kind of
0:55:27 shut them down but when the moguls did
0:55:29 that it ultimately turned it into a
0:55:32 militaristic um
0:55:34 as some of the gurus began to join you
0:55:36 know began to use military um uh began
0:55:40 to engage in military expeditions
0:55:44 yeah
0:55:44 no no
0:55:45 which gurus did that and uh did you know
0:55:47 any stories in particular that you wanna
0:55:49 tell us about that
0:55:51 um
0:55:53 uh the ninth guru guru tegh bahadur
0:55:56 sahib shah i'm pretty sure it was him
0:55:58 yeah um
0:55:59 but he he i believe that him in orange
0:56:01 zip had the famous relationship and
0:56:04 origin um ultimately had him hunted down
0:56:06 but he was one but as several of them i
0:56:09 believe two are yeah and what was the
0:56:12 how did he hunted down can you explain
0:56:15 how that ended
0:56:17 okay well the problem here is there's so
0:56:20 many stories there's so many different
0:56:22 accounts to it um
0:56:24 one of the gurus um uh i i don't know if
0:56:27 he was a six or i think or he was a
0:56:29 seventh uh he was guru um
0:56:33 he was somebody who was very
0:56:35 he was
0:56:37 he was somebody who was involved in
0:56:38 military he led the sikhs to fight
0:56:41 against the mobiles
0:56:43 he always you know he boosted the
0:56:45 military spirit of the sikhs um
0:56:48 but you know so this whole i'll give you
0:56:51 one case study example i don't know the
0:56:52 name it might have been the ninth guru
0:56:55 guru tech bahadur but
0:56:58 he leaves this movement and they begin
0:57:00 to they try they try to this is one one
0:57:03 account and they try to boycott you know
0:57:06 the mughals uh and they try to create
0:57:08 their own state um
0:57:11 and so obviously they begin to engage in
0:57:12 military expeditions and the moguls
0:57:15 obviously are trying to shut down
0:57:17 any revolt any rebellion
0:57:20 and so they fight against them and then
0:57:22 ultimately the moguls kill them uh in
0:57:24 many times the moguls with with people
0:57:26 they wanted to you know uh when they
0:57:29 wanted to deter people from doing things
0:57:30 like this they would behead them
0:57:32 so some of the gurus uh were beheaded uh
0:57:35 and then this in sikhism you have all
0:57:37 this folklore about the guru's head
0:57:39 coming back and stuff like that such and
0:57:41 forth so um so to answer your first
0:57:45 question yes some of the gurus did
0:57:47 engage in military expeditions against
0:57:50 the moguls and they were ultimately
0:57:51 beheaded
0:57:56 [Music]
0:57:57 yeah and the splitting in the middle
0:57:59 have you seen this kind of thing as well
0:58:02 oh what do you mean splitting in the
0:58:03 middle uh
0:58:05 one one particular guru was well there's
0:58:08 a story i'm not sure to extend the
0:58:10 veracity of this historical account but
0:58:11 he's split in the middle
0:58:13 and then he was brought back again to
0:58:15 life is that a fake history or
0:58:18 oh well it depends uh
0:58:21 uh historian hardrock override claims
0:58:24 that many of these narratives that seeks
0:58:26 are taught from their parents and from
0:58:28 their uh goldwaters and stuff they they
0:58:30 don't really have any historical facts
0:58:32 at all they're just it's just mythology
0:58:34 so okay with the story like that you
0:58:36 know in our opinion but we know that
0:58:38 they were at least beheaded right
0:58:40 some of them yeah
0:58:41 yeah
0:58:43 okay we do believe that and do they have
0:58:45 a did they consider them martyrs or do
0:58:47 they consider them
0:58:49 losers yeah
0:58:51 no no they consider them are marvelous
0:58:52 they revere all of their gurus
0:58:55 they have like a crucifixion narrative
0:58:56 where you know there's
0:59:00 uh
0:59:01 it it is like a crucifixion um it's a
0:59:03 story they tell um and they they extol
0:59:06 the virtues of the guru and how the guru
0:59:08 stood up for us for our religion but if
0:59:11 you see many of these um extremist
0:59:13 groups that you know call some of them
0:59:15 you don't want to call for the khalistan
0:59:17 you know the the state um they they
0:59:20 recall these stories and talk about how
0:59:21 these are how the gurus were the real
0:59:23 heroes
0:59:25 right right right and that's that's why
0:59:26 you find there's a bit of hostility
0:59:28 sometimes hostile narratives towards
0:59:31 muslim communities
0:59:33 it is absolutely huge especially if you
0:59:36 speak to the older the the older sikhs
0:59:39 many of them hold this um animosity not
0:59:42 all right but some of them do hold this
0:59:44 animosity if you mention the local
0:59:46 empire to them all of them will
0:59:48 inevitably condemn it you know
0:59:51 uh say all these nasty things about the
0:59:53 mogul so that that is still parcel much
0:59:56 alive today
0:59:59 and do you think that that manifests
1:00:00 itself sociologically in in the real
1:00:03 world
1:00:05 100 i believe that some uh again not all
1:00:08 of them right we're not generalizing but
1:00:10 some of them um
1:00:11 uh well all of them that are religious
1:00:14 you'll find they know these stories very
1:00:16 deeply and with that there is an
1:00:18 animosity towards the mobile empire and
1:00:20 the narrative now that the mughals
1:00:22 oppressed us because we were sick
1:00:25 now they believe that look muslims
1:00:26 persecuted just because we had a
1:00:28 different religion um so
1:00:31 you know in the city that i live right
1:00:33 muslims and sikhs are are too large
1:00:36 the muslims are a minority but their
1:00:38 their relationship between us is very
1:00:39 peaceful but if these topics are ever
1:00:42 ever brought up there would be
1:00:43 inevitably lots of animosity towards one
1:00:46 another
1:00:49 and very very very very interesting uh
1:00:51 definitely
1:00:52 is there anything more you have on
1:00:54 rituals yes no i'm just i'm just sorry i
1:00:57 was directing that too to one of our
1:00:58 guys here shakir he's gonna start off
1:01:00 and then i'll come back to you okay
1:01:03 okay i just wanted to mention yeah
1:01:04 there's also an eleventh guru
1:01:07 yep
1:01:14 so technically they believe there's 11.
1:01:16 yep all right perfect yeah
1:01:19 yeah so uh just continuing with the case
1:01:21 so we spoke about kesh which is the
1:01:23 uncut hair
1:01:24 uh
1:01:26 yeah okay yeah so so with that it's um
1:01:29 for them it's a symbol of of strength
1:01:33 uh holiness
1:01:34 um this idea that hair is part of god's
1:01:37 creation so keeping the hair uncut
1:01:39 indicates that one is willing to accept
1:01:41 god's gift so if you're bold you know we
1:01:45 i guess it depends how voluntary that
1:01:47 balding is
1:01:48 right right yeah
1:01:50 so uh
1:01:51 yeah so then so that the sikh should
1:01:53 only bow his head to the guru not to the
1:01:55 baba
1:01:56 and um it follows the appearance of the
1:01:58 guru uh the guru gobind singh who's the
1:02:00 founder of the
1:02:02 the the khalsa which is sort of their
1:02:04 concept of the um the sikh community
1:02:06 then they've got the kara which is the
1:02:08 steel bracelet
1:02:10 it's a symbol of restraint restraint
1:02:12 gentility
1:02:13 um it's a reminder that the sikh should
1:02:14 not do anything that the guru would not
1:02:16 approve because the this is a symbol
1:02:18 that's linked to the guru it's a symbol
1:02:20 of permanent bonding uh being a link in
1:02:22 the chain of the of the community so
1:02:23 it's like a it's made of a steel
1:02:26 and it's not gold or silver because it's
1:02:28 not an ornament the cone
1:02:31 sort of symbolizes a clean mind and body
1:02:34 since it keeps the uncut hair neat and
1:02:36 tidy um and it sort of symbolizes the
1:02:39 importance of of looking after the body
1:02:40 which god has created so
1:02:44 i guess they're trying to give reverence
1:02:45 to the body so you know grow out the
1:02:47 hair because it's it's part of god's
1:02:48 creation and also keep it clean and tidy
1:02:50 then they've got the catcher which are
1:02:52 special underwear um and it's a pair of
1:02:54 breeches that you know must not come
1:02:56 below the knee
1:02:58 and so for the sikh warriors of the 18th
1:03:00 and 19th centuries um it was very useful
1:03:03 i think we just talked about the warfare
1:03:04 it was very suitable for warfare when
1:03:06 they're rising or riding a horse
1:03:07 and it's a symbol of chastity as well
1:03:09 um which is linked to something i'm
1:03:11 going to discuss in a second and then
1:03:13 this is the carpal which is the
1:03:14 ceremonial sword
1:03:16 it says that there's no fixed style but
1:03:18 from my understood it's normally a
1:03:19 double double-edged
1:03:22 sword
1:03:23 and it's kept in a sheath that can be
1:03:25 worn
1:03:26 over or under clothing because it
1:03:28 symbolizes you know spirituality the
1:03:30 soldier part
1:03:31 of the uh the soldier saints um defense
1:03:33 of the good and the weak the struggle
1:03:34 against injustice uh and so in that way
1:03:37 it's sort of like a metaphor for god as
1:03:39 well in their religion
1:03:40 um and then every sikh remembers that
1:03:42 over these the warriors or the martyrs
1:03:44 since 19 16 99
1:03:47 and every living member is united with
1:03:49 them uh having adopted the five k's so
1:03:51 these are five
1:03:53 ornaments or ornaments about five you
1:03:55 know items of clothing that the uh the
1:03:57 sikhs would wear and what to do today
1:03:59 what about day-to-day rituals that they
1:04:01 do
1:04:02 uh
1:04:03 praying and singing and uh chanting
1:04:06 uh ahmed let's go to you because thanks
1:04:09 for that jacket that was good do you
1:04:11 know anything about that
1:04:14 yeah so um
1:04:17 the way their rituals are broken up uh
1:04:20 it's uh it does draw some similarities
1:04:23 with islam
1:04:25 you know they
1:04:26 you know what what's interesting is one
1:04:27 you know when many of them begin their
1:04:29 prayer they recite something
1:04:31 from the adi grant which is like the
1:04:33 beginning of their scripture the gts
1:04:37 which says there is one supreme being
1:04:40 the eternal reality
1:04:42 the supreme being is the creator without
1:04:44 fear and devoid of hatred immortal never
1:04:48 incarnated self-existence
1:04:51 known by grace through the guru so
1:04:54 um if you go to the gurdwaras and stuff
1:04:56 that's sometimes
1:04:58 many of them start their prayer
1:05:00 um with that statement because that's
1:05:02 their basic statement of belief
1:05:04 so they come they bowed their head to
1:05:06 the scripture many of them believe that
1:05:09 the scripture itself because it is the
1:05:11 11th guru some many of them also believe
1:05:14 that it is god within it right those who
1:05:17 adopt the pantheistic worldview so
1:05:19 they'll kind of make their subju to it
1:05:22 um
1:05:24 and that sort
1:05:25 and then they have other prayers as well
1:05:27 but many of their prayers involve
1:05:29 singing so there's a lot of singing of
1:05:31 their of their hymns and from their
1:05:33 scriptures similar to hinduism
1:05:36 and some could make the argument similar
1:05:38 to islam and how we you know we recite
1:05:40 the quran beautifully
1:05:43 but
1:05:44 yeah most of it involves
1:05:46 you know they have their own zakat where
1:05:47 they give their money
1:05:49 to the gurdwara but the reciting of
1:05:51 scripture is kind of their main thing
1:05:53 and then making a sort of prayer is
1:05:55 usually what their their entire prayer
1:05:57 um
1:05:58 and is it can that be done sitting down
1:06:00 or are they are there like postures and
1:06:05 uh
1:06:06 from what i recall there there isn't
1:06:08 necessarily posture it's kind of like uh
1:06:10 it's segregated right so the females
1:06:12 that on one side the males from the
1:06:13 other side um everybody kind of covers
1:06:16 their head um and they're usually just
1:06:18 sitting down when they recite it there
1:06:20 isn't necessarily a a bodily movement
1:06:23 okay
1:06:24 well i think we covered quite a lot and
1:06:26 i just wanted to think i was just
1:06:28 thinking as you were speaking i know
1:06:29 it's a bit
1:06:30 off topic maybe but
1:06:32 you know this whole reincarnation thing
1:06:35 i feel like it actually encourages
1:06:37 individualism because if you think
1:06:39 yourself imagine you're in a family
1:06:41 right and you think well i'm going to be
1:06:43 it's conceivable that my son's gonna be
1:06:45 a snake and i'm gonna be a completely
1:06:46 different animal from the animal kingdom
1:06:49 like he could be a kangaroo i could be a
1:06:50 snake i'm gonna be separated from my son
1:06:53 in a way which
1:06:55 there's no incentive
1:06:56 to be in the same place at the same time
1:06:58 like if if i'm good and my son is good
1:07:00 we'll both be in the same place
1:07:02 well if i'm if i'm back if i'm good to a
1:07:04 degree of 80 and my son's good then he's
1:07:06 gonna be a kangaroo and i'm gonna be a
1:07:08 snake
1:07:09 so i'm thinking to myself you know
1:07:12 i'm just gonna do my thing you know
1:07:14 although of course you could say that as
1:07:16 well with the heaven you're gonna just
1:07:17 have no help but at least in heaven you
1:07:20 go you you could be united with your
1:07:21 family there's more there's more
1:07:23 incentive that sense you know
1:07:25 but i think it can be quite a bleak
1:07:26 eschatological picture
1:07:28 like you know it's a choice of being a
1:07:30 human again which isn't the best
1:07:31 experience
1:07:33 or being a snake or kangaroo or
1:07:35 something like that which is probably
1:07:36 even more
1:07:38 uh miserable to be honest with you and
1:07:40 also the idea that you you know you're
1:07:42 not going to be with your family again
1:07:43 so this is kind of
1:07:45 my goodbye to my loved ones right yeah
1:07:47 exactly yeah exactly well i i i think
1:07:50 there's a lot that we have covered today
1:07:52 and i thank all of you for
1:07:54 teaching me and uh helping me with
1:07:56 understanding i'm sure you guys have all
1:07:58 benefited from one another just as i
1:08:00 have benefited from all of you and um is
1:08:03 there anything before i can conclude
1:08:05 that you want to say
1:08:07 the sins
1:08:11 i think every everything has been
1:08:12 articulated evolved by the brothers and
1:08:14 yourself hamdullah just wants to mention
1:08:16 one thing about the sins which uk he's
1:08:18 going to do now yeah yeah so i talked
1:08:20 earlier about the the
1:08:23 i guess it's a right which is the amrit
1:08:24 which is the the baptism it's sort of
1:08:27 like a it does hold the role of a
1:08:28 baptism though it's sort of like a a way
1:08:30 to come into the
1:08:32 would be sort of
1:08:33 uh brought into the community so these
1:08:36 four sin these are like the four big
1:08:37 sins that you're not supposed to do
1:08:38 one of them is cutting the hair right
1:08:41 the other one is eating halal meat right
1:08:44 the other one is a sex with other than
1:08:46 one spouse
1:08:47 and
1:08:48 the last one is tobacco
1:08:49 or using tobacco interesting the sex
1:08:52 with more than one spouse from one would
1:08:54 say with other than one spouse oh okay
1:08:55 because because some of the gurus done
1:08:57 polygamy right they had two wives and so
1:08:58 on yeah as i understand it for them it's
1:09:00 it's their monogamous now oh is it as i
1:09:02 understand yeah all right right
1:09:04 interesting interesting
1:09:05 okay well these are for eating halal
1:09:07 meat it's uh up there with murder right
1:09:10 maybe i don't know it's that but it's uh
1:09:13 interesting to know
1:09:15 so thank you very much for all the
1:09:16 participants today i've certainly
1:09:17 learned a lot and we should do this
1:09:18 again
1:09:19 and i'm sure as i said that you've all
1:09:21 learned from one another just like i've
1:09:22 learned from all of you and my message
1:09:24 to i know many sikhs that are probably
1:09:26 watching this show
1:09:28 uh is that we should all really seek
1:09:31 seek the truth and i invite you to do
1:09:34 the same thing you can seek and i can
1:09:36 seek to seek the truth
1:09:38 and the truth shall
1:09:39 set us free
1:09:41 with that have that being said i say
1:09:43 goodbye
1:09:45 and good luck