Shubuhat Series #1 - Does Islam Allow The Killing Of Innocent People? | Mohammed Hijab (2022-05-24) #

0:00:08 and welcome to this new series
0:00:10 of uh responding to the shubahat
0:00:12 responding to the major should
0:00:14 the doubts that people
0:00:17 approach islam with we're going to
0:00:19 really do two things in this series and
0:00:21 we've spoken about this in private but
0:00:23 we should let the people at home know
0:00:25 we're going to deal with two levels of
0:00:26 shuba heads one of them are the common
0:00:28 subuhit against islam
0:00:30 and the level two will be the comments
0:00:33 about the muslim community about islam
0:00:35 as a civilization
0:00:36 about islam in practice really and these
0:00:39 are kind of you could call them the
0:00:40 higher levels
0:00:41 which
0:00:42 people in academic environments
0:00:44 political commentators historians
0:00:46 academics whatever will make
0:00:48 so today we're going to start with the
0:00:49 first uh
0:00:51 probably the most notorious really and
0:00:53 prominent type of shubha which is that
0:00:55 islam allows the killing of innocent
0:00:57 people
0:00:58 and by that they mean the killing of
0:01:00 non-combatants people like women people
0:01:02 like children
0:01:04 and so on and this is couched in the
0:01:06 greater context of jihad they say this
0:01:09 is what jihad is
0:01:11 and jihad is really this
0:01:13 way in which islam can expand itself and
0:01:16 kill as many people in the process
0:01:18 or and or
0:01:20 convert as many people by force
0:01:23 in the process these are the kinds of
0:01:24 things we've heard in the past
0:01:26 historically and contemporaneously
0:01:28 so what we're going to be doing
0:01:29 inshaallah is we're going to be looking
0:01:31 at
0:01:32 uh
0:01:32 the salient prominent kind of
0:01:35 points that are used for and against
0:01:37 this notion and we're going to start
0:01:39 with obviously the most uh important
0:01:41 aspects including but not limited to the
0:01:43 objectives of jihad
0:01:45 what jihad even means as a linguistic
0:01:47 term the objectives of jihad
0:01:50 uh we're going to be talking about the
0:01:52 ayat in the quran which they are used
0:01:54 against us
0:01:56 to try and indicate that islam is the
0:01:57 killing of innocent people and
0:01:59 non-combatants is on
0:02:00 and then some hadith some prominent
0:02:02 hadiths that as well
0:02:04 and we're going to be looking at the uh
0:02:06 chef
0:02:14 but what the schools of thought have
0:02:15 said about these matters
0:02:17 and we're going to be looking at some
0:02:19 common things that orientalists say
0:02:21 and how to respond to them as well as
0:02:24 work which has already been done in the
0:02:25 field
0:02:26 of apologetics so that's quite a lot to
0:02:28 do
0:02:28 uh but we do in charlotte have an
0:02:31 all-star team here
0:02:32 today
0:02:33 and we are
0:02:35 all of them are equipped with research
0:02:37 and i'm just going to facilitate this so
0:02:39 i'm going to really
0:02:40 uh
0:02:42 leave it to them
0:02:43 and it's the more we do these sessions
0:02:45 the idea is really
0:02:47 uh in this kind of
0:02:49 syllabi that we have in sapiens
0:02:52 institute is to become more and more
0:02:54 hands-off
0:02:55 it started off with a lecture heavy
0:02:57 style
0:02:58 and then
0:02:59 you guys do more of the work as you go
0:03:01 along and then afterwards the stabilizer
0:03:02 will come off completely and that's
0:03:04 usually that's how learning should be
0:03:06 uh should be an active process rather
0:03:08 than a passive one
0:03:11 so let's get started inshaallah
0:03:13 let's start with the objectives of why
0:03:15 is jihad first of all what are his
0:03:17 objectives uh please get us started
0:03:21 so bismillah so um you know i'm talking
0:03:24 about jihad obviously related to sugar
0:03:26 hut um specifically you know uh you know
0:03:28 the the fighting the the uh the outer
0:03:30 jihad right not that you had enough that
0:03:32 were talking about talking about jihad
0:03:33 against you know um people who are you
0:03:36 know not muslim people who are
0:03:37 oppressing us things like this
0:03:38 so you know particularly fighting
0:03:40 um and it's important that when we talk
0:03:42 about jihad we remember that you know
0:03:45 that fighting it wasn't initially
0:03:46 prescribed in order to bring people into
0:03:49 islam or neither was it to spread islam
0:03:51 right initially
0:03:52 but rather it was to stop people from
0:03:54 persecuting the muslims
0:03:56 so until
0:03:58 you know
0:03:59 the disbelievers at the time of the
0:04:00 prophet
0:04:01 until they desist from the persecution
0:04:04 of the muslims then we are allowed to be
0:04:06 you know hostile towards them and you
0:04:08 know this is a realistic approach and
0:04:10 this say this is a pragmatic approach
0:04:13 before you continue
0:04:14 in particular what verse comes springs
0:04:16 to mind you can answer this or someone
0:04:18 else can
0:04:19 when it comes for the initial uh
0:04:21 prescription to do jihad as a result of
0:04:23 the persecution
0:04:25 so in the quran in surah baqarah
0:04:28 i believe the
0:04:29 verse 190 um which is chapter 2 of the
0:04:32 quran by the way you know allah says you
0:04:34 know fight in the cause of allah against
0:04:36 those who wage war against you
0:04:38 but do not exceed the limits that's good
0:04:40 okay so you've got two 190.
0:04:44 yeah
0:04:45 but there's another verse which i'm
0:04:47 thinking about before you continue
0:04:48 because you made a good point but we
0:04:50 want to evidence it before we continue
0:04:51 go ahead
0:04:52 yes
0:04:53 they say it's the first verse that was
0:04:54 revealed relating
0:05:07 has been given to those who have been
0:05:09 fought uh basically i need to take up
0:05:11 arms
0:05:12 um because they've been wronged because
0:05:13 they've been oppressed good and the
0:05:15 shahid here is what although the main
0:05:16 point of uh emphasis is that the reason
0:05:18 that they've been given permission to
0:05:19 fight is because they've been aggressed
0:05:20 upon and how do you know that the people
0:05:22 are pressing them because the ayah is
0:05:23 very clear about that what does it say
0:05:24 what part of the
0:05:26 biennium
0:05:28 okay you know
0:05:29 the translator of the quran says
0:05:30 something very important about this he
0:05:32 goes
0:05:33 that this um
0:05:35 the fact that this was the context the
0:05:37 persecution
0:05:39 uh was the context of it
0:05:42 it's clear because he says it's couched
0:05:44 in language of justification
0:05:46 because if it was just like free for all
0:05:48 why what would be superfluous to mention
0:06:00 was important here because it shows that
0:06:02 there's some issues that there's a
0:06:03 response to something continue please
0:06:05 you were saying
0:06:07 yeah um
0:06:09 so again like you mentioned like these
0:06:10 these languages justification and again
0:06:12 like another ayat in surah baqarah you
0:06:14 know verse 193 which is to fight against
0:06:16 them if they persecute you until there
0:06:17 is no piece of until there is no more
0:06:20 persecution and you know the religion is
0:06:22 for allah alone
0:06:23 and if they stop persecuting against you
0:06:26 then you know um then do not be hostile
0:06:29 against them except for those who
0:06:31 transgress except for the you know
0:06:33 except for those who you know uh oppress
0:06:35 you right what what
0:06:37 what are you mentioning this is uh two
0:06:38 one nine three okay right okay
0:06:41 yeah yeah
0:06:42 um so again like uh it's important to
0:06:45 remember that this gradual
0:06:46 implementation of jihad
0:06:48 and you know ibrahim like he he outlines
0:06:51 this in uh zadal mad and he says that in
0:06:54 the prophet salallahu initially he came
0:06:56 to warn the people and then
0:06:59 then he was given permission to migrate
0:07:01 after being oppressed for a number of
0:07:02 years he was given permission to migrate
0:07:04 to medina and then after that he was
0:07:07 given permission to fight against those
0:07:09 who oppressed him
0:07:11 um
0:07:12 that's good masha'allah all done that's
0:07:14 good do you want to add to that i've got
0:07:15 anything more
0:07:17 yeah so how would you how would you
0:07:18 summarize the objectives of jihad
0:07:20 therefore
0:07:21 um so to summarize the objectives of
0:07:23 jihad um initially uh it is to stop
0:07:26 those who
0:07:27 oppress you right so you know if you're
0:07:30 being oppressed then you know this is uh
0:07:32 an objective jihad which is to free
0:07:34 yourself and you know the other muslims
0:07:36 from persecution to allow them to
0:07:37 practice their religion in safety
0:07:40 okay that's
0:07:43 or the defensive jihad what about you
0:07:45 the offensive one yeah so in terms of
0:07:47 the offensive jihad the objectives of
0:07:48 this
0:07:49 is first of all to remove any fitna
0:07:52 which you know other people may be
0:07:54 causing two people to a land or a group
0:07:56 of people
0:07:57 so you know if there is a
0:07:59 if there is an oppressive leader who's
0:08:01 oppressing you know his subjects his
0:08:02 people of islam then you know we are
0:08:05 encouraged to go fight against him to
0:08:07 you know liberate the people and you
0:08:08 know
0:08:09 to uh introduce them to islam
0:08:12 okay and do you have to force the people
0:08:13 to become muslim no so civilians no so
0:08:16 the objective is to uh it's the
0:08:19 basically take over the system which is
0:08:21 in place at the moment uh you know uh
0:08:24 just like every other ideology in the
0:08:25 world you know makes the truth claim you
0:08:27 know that they their ideology is the
0:08:29 best you know capitalism or communism
0:08:31 right uh islam also makes this case so
0:08:33 the idea is to replace these systems
0:08:35 with islam and to allow the people to uh
0:08:38 practice you know uh islam in peace and
0:08:41 within that there is also the ability
0:08:43 for our religions to practice their
0:08:44 religion um in peace as all okay good
0:08:47 okay so what would be the objective of
0:08:49 uh jihad
0:08:50 jihad talab
0:08:55 so
0:08:57 so the objective of uh of
0:08:59 the offensive offensive offensive jihad
0:09:01 is to remove um any persecution which
0:09:04 you know uh other non-muslims or even
0:09:07 muslims may be causing um but also to
0:09:10 uh to spread the religion of islam
0:09:12 okay good so
0:09:14 how do we call that
0:09:15 uh yeah i guess we would call that like
0:09:17 expansion right no no something that we
0:09:19 do here in the park
0:09:22 yeah
0:09:24 yeah that's absolutely right right
0:09:26 and there is a hadith which goes to the
0:09:28 effects on the people can help me out
0:09:30 here is the ani the prophet sallam he
0:09:32 said
0:09:34 he says danny being you being saturn s
0:09:37 leave me
0:09:38 between me and the
0:09:39 and the people
0:09:41 you know
0:09:42 and interestingly er this is a hadith
0:09:45 that is mentioned
0:09:46 so a lot of a lot of the scholars they
0:09:48 do say that one of the objectives of
0:09:50 jihad is to fudawa
0:09:53 for that purpose
0:09:55 now we well now we can do that without
0:09:57 having to do jihad but not many of us do
0:09:58 that
0:10:00 now we have to do the mess
0:10:02 to do that all right so um nice one
0:10:05 thank you very much for that
0:10:06 let's start with uh now the ayat of the
0:10:09 quran
0:10:10 that people use
0:10:12 to try and show that islam is a religion
0:10:14 which
0:10:16 means that you can kill the
0:10:18 non-combatant the woman the children
0:10:20 the person has committed no acts they
0:10:22 say that the quran itself endorses uh
0:10:25 killing of civilians people that have no
0:10:28 combative role
0:10:29 what what kind of ayat do they use for
0:10:30 this
0:10:34 yes
0:10:37 in relation to the eyes of the quran
0:10:39 yeah i want us to mention those ayah
0:10:40 that people are using yes let's start
0:10:42 with that
0:10:43 okay so um of the most famous verses
0:10:45 that people use is basically a lot of
0:10:47 the ayats and sort of talbah good give
0:10:48 me one example so particularly uh a
0:10:51 verse five of sort of talbah beautiful
0:10:53 okay which is that um that once uh once
0:10:55 the sacred months have passed
0:10:57 then basically kill the disbelievers
0:10:59 wherever you find them
0:11:03 you know you know
0:11:05 wait for them at every place of you know
0:11:07 ambush and that type of thing
0:11:08 and basically when this is quoted often
0:11:10 in public that's where people stop the
0:11:12 numbers so i mentioned that a couple
0:11:13 from that from the ayat and they were
0:11:15 mentioned what kind before what comes
0:11:17 after it and so
0:11:18 basically the context of the ayat is
0:11:20 that
0:11:21 it was revealed um
0:11:23 the whole sword of the beginning of the
0:11:24 sword is basically the uh
0:11:27 allah doing like
0:11:28 like you know declaring that
0:11:30 disassociation this association
0:11:32 basically from those disbelievers that
0:11:34 had broken initially the peace treaty
0:11:36 that was signed at the treaty of
0:11:38 uh that some of the disbelievers that
0:11:40 they attacked a tribe that were in sort
0:11:42 of allegiance with the muslims and so
0:11:43 they broke the non-aggression pact that
0:11:45 they had at that period of time
0:11:47 and so as a result of that uh
0:11:49 this was a declaration of the breaking
0:11:51 of that treaty and so the verse isn't
0:11:53 sort of you know just like you know like
0:11:55 every single because people would have
0:11:56 you believe that it means you know hana
0:11:58 every single disbeliever in that type of
0:11:59 manner because even afterwards allah
0:12:01 says puts the condition that you know if
0:12:02 they
0:12:03 in turbule
0:12:05 if they you know they seek forgiveness
0:12:07 and they
0:12:08 pray that they give theirs their zakat
0:12:09 and they pray the salah that type of
0:12:10 thing
0:12:12 that you know that they should be left
0:12:13 and also it gives another sort of caveat
0:12:16 which is that
0:12:19 if one of them basically comes to you
0:12:20 seeking safety whatever it is
0:12:26 that give him that security until he
0:12:27 hears the word of allah and then make
0:12:29 her way for him uh relates relating to
0:12:32 the breaking of the treaty as well
0:12:34 it's interesting on the next page of the
0:12:36 of the surah in the last the last hour
0:12:38 on that page whilst is that you know uh
0:12:42 are you not going to fight a people who
0:12:44 broke
0:12:45 um
0:12:46 who broke the treaty i broke the
0:12:48 agreement
0:12:49 and they sort of uh you know put effort
0:12:52 into basically explain the message of
0:12:54 allah
0:12:56 and there was them who initially started
0:12:58 the first aggression this is really
0:12:59 important and that's well put because
0:13:02 this is the kind of good answer that we
0:13:04 will need it's it's you don't really
0:13:07 need to go far
0:13:08 you just need to look at the ayat before
0:13:10 and after and you'll see there's so many
0:13:12 provisions
0:13:14 yeah so many provisions before and after
0:13:16 and the justifications before and after
0:13:22 unless that was significant that they
0:13:24 started you they started on you first
0:13:26 they they tried it first they they tried
0:13:28 to attack you first
0:13:29 you know
0:13:31 so that's that's well done another thing
0:13:33 another very famous uh ayah and sort of
0:13:36 the tawba so we've mentioned chapter
0:13:38 nine verse five
0:13:40 and it should be
0:13:41 annie also mentioned that some some
0:13:43 professors did actually say it's
0:13:46 i'm not sure if you come across this
0:13:47 that this abrogates everything that came
0:13:49 and all that stuff it's safe
0:13:51 uh how would you want to respond to that
0:13:53 yeah so uh obviously it's a position and
0:13:55 no no one multan has the ability to i
0:13:57 mean that is what he says is
0:13:59 is uh is the definitive statement but
0:14:02 others said that um
0:14:03 it's it's uh
0:14:05 it's not like a complete obligation it's
0:14:07 more the thing where based on the
0:14:08 context and the situation the rules that
0:14:10 are supposed to be applied uh have
0:14:12 changed i'll give you one reference i
0:14:14 came across which is quite interesting
0:14:15 and um
0:14:17 yeah i didn't expect to find this a job
0:14:20 sahih
0:14:21 of ibn taymiyah
0:14:23 and he actually has a whole fossil on
0:14:24 this whole chapter
0:14:26 on uh air to safe and he's basically
0:14:29 responding to the view that says that
0:14:31 uh
0:14:33 however
0:14:34 this is interesting but the point is
0:14:36 even if it is like it it doesn't still
0:14:39 that's not enough to show that you can
0:14:40 kill innocent non-combatant people
0:14:44 you see
0:14:45 even if they need this even that doesn't
0:14:47 show that you can kill the innocent
0:14:49 non-combatants
0:14:54 uh i will come to these classifications
0:14:56 in a second they're important ones
0:14:57 wasahabi what's the muslim and what is a
0:15:00 me these are the three major but we'll
0:15:02 come to that in a second that's good one
0:15:04 more yeah
0:15:09 yes
0:15:15 repeated
0:15:16 you will definitely come across this
0:15:19 so chapter 9 verse 5.
0:15:22 yeah okay but you've answered so many
0:15:24 times let's spread it around
0:15:31 okay alice ali say ali speaking hello
0:15:34 and he's on the phone look ali ellie
0:15:36 yeah go on
0:15:38 yeah go
0:15:46 how it goes anyone
0:15:48 chapter 9 verse 29
0:15:52 basically fight the people the
0:15:53 christians and the jews until they in a
0:15:55 nutshell pay the jizya yeah this is he
0:15:58 only mentioned that but i know people
0:15:59 misconstrue this and think 29 and 30 is
0:16:02 connected when it's not okay so this is
0:16:04 good because ali is speaking from
0:16:05 experience now because he's been you
0:16:07 know obviously in speaker's corner
0:16:08 battleground this is actually the thing
0:16:10 they come up with isn't it ali they come
0:16:12 up with this they come up with this is a
0:16:14 very famous
0:16:24 it keeps
0:16:25 this keep coming up
0:16:27 uh
0:16:27 that fight
0:16:30 fight is it fight or is it kill
0:16:33 it's fight
0:16:35 yeah fight let's fight yeah how do we
0:16:37 know it's not how do we know it's not
0:16:38 kill uh al-rahman because you know about
0:16:40 surf
0:16:42 huh
0:16:43 yeah it's on the same
0:16:45 verb scale as the word
0:16:47 which in the arabic language means that
0:16:48 the particular action is taking place
0:16:50 between two people yes right types of
0:16:52 people yeah so it's first of all that's
0:16:54 the first thing you need to know about
0:16:55 the ayah yeah
0:16:58 it's not uh
0:17:00 yeah so this is the first thing and it's
0:17:02 a selfie point
0:17:16 yeah yeah so it's hard to
0:17:19 it means it's happening on both sides
0:17:29 the same thing actually
0:17:31 which is if both of you fight each other
0:17:34 you know
0:17:36 so the word qatar and daraba is actually
0:17:38 used in other contexts in context of
0:17:39 muslims as well which is interesting but
0:17:42 it's
0:17:42 allah means it
0:17:44 the two people are fighting now if the
0:17:46 person is fighting what does that
0:17:47 eliminate already
0:17:49 then what
0:17:50 the non-combatants
0:17:52 so if the if the thing is that you're
0:17:53 saying that islam attacks combatants
0:17:56 uh allows the attacking of
0:17:58 non-combatants through this verse all
0:18:01 you have to do is show them this little
0:18:02 mushraka and how can it be how can it be
0:18:08 yeah
0:18:09 how could it be
0:18:11 or on this thing if if both parties are
0:18:13 not fighting each other
0:18:15 already they have to be fighting each
0:18:16 other
0:18:19 yeah
0:18:20 it will come to the hadith in a second
0:18:22 but you see
0:18:23 you see this point it's a very subtle
0:18:24 important point
0:18:26 so if they say well actually it means
0:18:27 that it's um
0:18:29 this means that you can kill the
0:18:30 combatants so if they're if they were
0:18:32 combatants
0:18:34 why is it why is it on that what's
0:18:36 called a morphological meter
0:18:40 is morphology by the way that's what
0:18:41 it's called
0:18:43 is morphology so this is called the
0:18:45 morphological meter why would it be on
0:18:47 this morphological meter
0:18:49 which is kha tilu ka tela yeah basically
0:18:52 dashless
0:18:53 if
0:18:54 it was it was meant to be one if it was
0:18:56 meant to be asymmetrical
0:18:59 so this implies
0:19:01 symmetricality
0:19:03 there's two things going on that's the
0:19:06 linguistic
0:19:07 point yeah
0:19:16 so it says fight those who don't believe
0:19:18 in allah on the last day
0:19:22 and they don't believe in the true
0:19:24 religion
0:19:27 have i missed
0:19:34 allah
0:19:53 until and like ali said ali was right
0:19:55 ali said that and then they say because
0:19:57 the next verse says
0:20:06 you know and the jews say that this is
0:20:08 uh
0:20:10 the
0:20:11 azar whoever that may be because some
0:20:13 says ezra some say it's uh
0:20:16 what's the other one they say is
0:20:19 some people say it's unique as well by
0:20:20 the way we're not going to translate
0:20:22 ourselves just leave ourselves for now
0:20:24 just right
0:20:25 okay we don't know who is
0:20:27 he if he's ezra or eunuch just for the
0:20:29 sake of argument
0:20:32 sorry
0:20:36 is the son of allah and this and the
0:20:38 christians say that
0:20:42 that jesus is yeah
0:20:45 uh
0:20:46 that
0:21:00 so they try and say this is their line
0:21:01 of argumentation by the way they say the
0:21:03 reason why you have to kill fight them
0:21:05 is because
0:21:06 so they've made it what you call tali
0:21:08 they've made it causative they say the
0:21:10 reason why you have to fight them is
0:21:12 because what
0:21:13 because they believe in uh
0:21:15 that these ones are the sons of gods
0:21:16 whoever jose or jesus
0:21:18 do you see did you see the faulty
0:21:20 argumentation
0:21:21 yeah
0:21:23 because obviously jews are included in
0:21:24 this as well yeah so yeah
0:21:28 ethnically at least the process the jew
0:21:30 no no that's fine that's a separate
0:21:32 argument
0:21:34 but if something is going to be because
0:21:35 of something you need something in
0:21:37 arabic yeah you need like
0:21:41 or something something you know
0:21:46 there's nothing like that
0:21:48 it doesn't say that
0:21:49 this is because they believe in jesus as
0:21:51 the son of god and it doesn't say that
0:21:53 so they the the
0:21:55 of the burden of proof is upon the one
0:21:56 who's making the claim if they're saying
0:21:58 that it's because they're yani this is
0:22:00 what they actually say this is what we
0:22:01 hear they say the reason why
0:22:04 you have to fight them is because they
0:22:06 are jews and christians
0:22:08 so we say but that's not what the a.s
0:22:09 says the age says
0:22:13 so it could be well listed
0:22:15 starting with a new sentence
0:22:17 it doesn't say this is because
0:22:19 they are you have to fight them because
0:22:21 of that reason you see the point
0:22:23 so that nullifies this point that ali
0:22:25 was just mentioning i don't know where
0:22:26 he was
0:22:28 but within the script now how would you
0:22:30 respond to this ayah
0:22:34 this area does not really require
0:22:36 response because it's not does not prove
0:22:38 the fact
0:22:39 that there is it's fighting towards
0:22:41 combatants it all it proves
0:22:44 is that you can fight or you should
0:22:46 fight
0:22:48 those empires around you or those who
0:22:50 met around you which are jew or
0:22:53 christian like the roman empire and like
0:22:55 the persian empire until they give the
0:22:57 judea
0:22:59 that's fine that we already know islam
0:23:01 allows and then how the howness of that
0:23:03 is in the hadith the three
0:23:05 uh the the three uh
0:23:08 options that they're given either you
0:23:10 give the jizya or you do this or you do
0:23:12 that
0:23:13 yeah we're not apologetic about that
0:23:15 point that's that is uh truth but we're
0:23:17 not saying that this doesn't prove
0:23:20 that what they can kill who
0:23:22 the combatants it doesn't say that
0:23:24 it just means that you can fight
0:23:27 the other powers
0:23:29 which are
0:23:30 christian and jewish that they are
0:23:32 neither their hakuma the the power
0:23:34 centers are christian and jewish
0:23:36 and actually you should fight them
0:23:39 because
0:23:41 okay we don't disagree with that
0:23:43 but we already have our line of
0:23:44 argumentation which is what
0:23:47 which is that if you don't fight them if
0:23:49 you don't fight them they'll fight you
0:23:51 and they'll take you into their empire
0:23:53 and why should we have uh and they won't
0:23:55 they won't even allow
0:23:57 the muslims to come and do dawah into
0:23:58 their places
0:24:00 so all of these are
0:24:02 points
0:24:03 sonic
0:24:04 is that familiar thank you very much
0:24:05 just put it on the table
0:24:07 check it out
0:24:09 okay thank you very thank you thank you
0:24:12 um so okay these are so so far how many
0:24:15 areas have we mentioned
0:24:18 we've mentioned we've mentioned two main
0:24:20 ones okay so what give me two more
0:24:23 main areas that you have heard that
0:24:26 non-muslims use or uh people that want
0:24:29 to attack islam in particular use to try
0:24:31 and say that islam attacks
0:24:34 combatants stone combatants
0:24:37 let's see anybody else first
0:24:40 yes matthew what do you say
0:24:45 yeah what about that area that you were
0:24:46 talking about the other day that in the
0:24:48 back of the quran would they use the
0:24:50 thing the story of khadr
0:24:52 no there was no
0:24:53 they don't usually use that for that
0:24:55 reason
0:25:13 mushrik
0:25:14 the polytheists
0:25:16 all together
0:25:18 just like they are fighting you all
0:25:19 together
0:25:20 so what is the answer it's maybe already
0:25:22 in the self-contained in the air
0:25:26 what is the answer
0:25:35 fight them just like they're doing with
0:25:36 you you do it with them
0:25:38 there's no controversy there
0:25:42 what else
0:25:51 what other areas did he use in the quran
0:25:56 did we already mention that one no
0:25:59 okay but that's verse six right
0:26:02 it's connected
0:26:21 okay so this is like the 89 yeah
0:26:24 is that right can we check that
0:26:27 and then the next ayah is
0:26:29 uh is is
0:26:41 that's the answer isn't it so okay let's
0:26:43 look at that's that is an a that will
0:26:44 use if they come with
0:26:47 suratu nisa
0:26:48 chapter 4
0:26:50 verse 89 how does it someone read it for
0:26:52 me please
0:27:14 right and in fact that 90 is unabrogated
0:27:17 so that's a very important one there's
0:27:19 no nest on there
0:27:20 not that any classical scholar speaks
0:27:22 about
0:27:23 so it's this can you translate that you
0:27:25 didn't translate that by the way
0:27:27 because if you read 89 by itself it
0:27:29 looks like a chapter 4 verse 89
0:27:32 it looks like it's uh they've got the
0:27:33 gold bullet right
0:27:36 in english
0:27:37 yeah alex please read it yeah okay they
0:27:39 wish that you should disbelieve as they
0:27:40 have disbelieved and thus you become all
0:27:42 alike so do not take friends from among
0:27:44 them unless they migrate in the way of
0:27:46 allah then if they turn away seize them
0:27:48 and kill them wherever you find them and
0:27:50 do not take from among them friend or
0:27:52 helper that's 89 look you read night 90s
0:27:54 except those who join a group between
0:27:56 whom and you there is a treaty or who
0:27:58 come to you with their hearts feeling
0:27:59 discomfort in fighting against you or
0:28:02 against their own people if allah had so
0:28:04 willed he would have given them power
0:28:05 over you then they would afford you so
0:28:07 if they stay away from you and do not
0:28:08 fight you and offer you peace then allah
0:28:10 has not given you any authority against
0:28:12 them they have it you know so all you
0:28:14 have to do is another case of just read
0:28:15 the next ayah
0:28:17 so you they give you 89 but you just
0:28:19 have to read 90
0:28:21 and then
0:28:22 and then it actually solves your in
0:28:23 ninth for chapter 4 verse 90 is one of
0:28:25 the most definitive
0:28:27 in the quran that indicate
0:28:29 non-aggressive stances to non-combatants
0:28:31 or peace peaceful people
0:28:33 because look at this
0:28:40 that they come back basically bear
0:28:41 chested
0:28:42 like they're saying we don't want to
0:28:44 fight we don't want to fight so if you
0:28:46 don't want to fight allah is saying
0:28:47 don't fight those ones
0:28:49 fight the ones who fight you
0:28:51 don't fight the ones who come and say
0:28:52 look we want to do a peace treaty wanna
0:28:54 you see
0:28:56 all right so that's uh that's good
0:28:59 there's one in 195. have you guys done
0:29:01 sora 190 to 194 but if you go to 95 i
0:29:04 don't it's not quite popular but if we
0:29:05 go to the ayah what it says is
0:29:07 basically attack them the way that they
0:29:09 have attacked you in the same manner so
0:29:11 some people actually i don't know if
0:29:12 certain groups have already done this so
0:29:14 they'll say they've killed our um
0:29:16 innocence we will attack the innocence
0:29:17 and this i approve this yeah so this is
0:29:19 this is exactly what uh uh sorry i'm not
0:29:22 gonna say who from that from that side
0:29:24 but uh who've been uh bit louder than
0:29:26 you what he's where he used yeah
0:29:29 yeah he used this
0:29:30 bin laden uses a that was his air to
0:29:33 prove that you can kill illusion people
0:29:34 well
0:29:35 so how do um
0:29:36 that so you tell me well from
0:29:39 i don't know from the tafsir that i read
0:29:40 it does say very categorically even
0:29:42 quotes
0:29:43 that he said you know when going to
0:29:44 warfare you know do not harm men women
0:29:47 children etc and i think that does say
0:29:49 uh it doesn't even mention anything like
0:29:51 that like it doesn't even use that like
0:29:52 the early
0:29:53 the salah never saw it and understood in
0:29:55 this way at all okay so in in
0:29:58 we'll go to your soul now
0:30:00 which this is why it's important this is
0:30:01 almost an islamic study this is good to
0:30:03 share here because any mistakes that we
0:30:05 make this year so you know
0:30:11 you have two types of verse
0:30:13 you have
0:30:16 the general and the
0:30:17 specific specific okay no problem yeah
0:30:20 so if if there's a general verse and
0:30:22 there's no specific verse then what
0:30:24 happens
0:30:26 then it's general then it just stays on
0:30:28 this uh
0:30:29 generality
0:30:30 all right but is there some specifiers
0:30:33 to this
0:30:34 area
0:30:41 yeah are there specifiers
0:30:44 what what does 195 say 194. what does
0:30:47 one f4 say okay it says the holy month
0:30:49 for the holy month and the sanctities
0:30:51 are subject to retribution so when
0:30:53 anyone commits
0:30:57 right so when anyone commits aggression
0:30:59 against you be aggressive against them
0:31:01 in the like manner
0:31:03 so they're saying that good good so this
0:31:06 is let's put the argument forward
0:31:08 bin laden and ko
0:31:11 and ayman alvari
0:31:13 and isis
0:31:15 but less so isis to be honest and more
0:31:17 so al-qaeda and these other takfiri type
0:31:20 groups
0:31:21 they all say look
0:31:22 be mislea
0:31:24 so how did they do it to you they killed
0:31:26 your children
0:31:28 so all you should do to them was what
0:31:30 kill their children that's that's what
0:31:32 they say
0:31:33 remember we did a a session on tech
0:31:36 theorism
0:31:37 and remember
0:31:38 we talked about the guy with a huge bid
0:31:40 that was in this country
0:31:42 the jordanian guy
0:31:44 he wrote a book he actually made a fatwa
0:31:45 some time ago he said
0:31:47 that
0:31:48 you know he said uh
0:31:51 in algeria they should they should kill
0:31:54 the children or something like that
0:31:56 very famous father fatwa
0:31:58 and then everyone uh survived he met
0:31:59 tawba after
0:32:01 he
0:32:02 repented but why because of this ayah
0:32:04 this is where they got it
0:32:06 so now we go to
0:32:07 first of all is this ayah telling you to
0:32:08 kill non-combatants no it's not okay
0:32:11 clear
0:32:12 so it's an inference of a general verse
0:32:14 but my question now is is there anything
0:32:16 specific in islam quran or hadith
0:32:20 which explicitly tells us you cannot
0:32:22 kill
0:32:22 non-combatants that's my question now go
0:32:25 ahead yeah
0:32:29 okay this is one verse chapter 60 verse
0:32:31 eight i'm sure you already okay but
0:32:34 let's be more specific
0:32:38 so they'll say these are not sin
0:32:41 yeah but that's general as well i don't
0:32:43 know so they'll say to two general
0:32:44 verses yeah you don't have a specifier
0:32:46 yet
0:32:48 never haditha anyone that harms a person
0:32:51 yeah he will not smell the fragrance of
0:32:53 all right so this this hadith one qatar
0:32:58 this is an important hadith because what
0:33:01 if
0:33:02 he mentions in this of the hadith
0:33:04 he says that actually this when he says
0:33:06 because there's three categories let's
0:33:08 first start with that
0:33:09 there's the me who is under the islamic
0:33:12 state and is paying the taxes so there's
0:33:13 a cat yeah
0:33:14 and then you have the mustafin and it's
0:33:16 also mustafa i i don't know which one is
0:33:18 a correct one which one is the better
0:33:20 one
0:33:21 is it better
0:33:22 i've heard that being said both ways but
0:33:24 the shaykh said when we were using that
0:33:26 one from now on no one's going to change
0:33:27 the situation
0:33:30 uh and also you have the
0:33:32 the you said we said the theme the
0:33:33 muslim
0:33:35 yeah the muahad and the these are the
0:33:37 four categories
0:33:39 of
0:33:40 non-muslims
0:33:41 according to islamic law
0:33:43 the zimmi is the person who is not
0:33:45 muslim but is paying islamic taxes and
0:33:47 that's fine
0:33:48 the muahah is someone who's been entered
0:33:50 into a contract somehow and they could
0:33:52 have been entered into the contract of
0:33:54 ad
0:33:56 through any means and nowadays we have
0:33:58 different ways of doing that some argue
0:34:00 citizenship some argue whatever yeah
0:34:03 then you have the mustafman which is
0:34:06 someone who has been granted immunity if
0:34:08 you like safety
0:34:10 and it can be granted that safety from
0:34:12 anybody can even be granted that safety
0:34:14 from
0:34:15 you know
0:34:16 a child some some scholars say a child
0:34:18 someone's called to say a slave in some
0:34:20 sort yani so you come into a land and
0:34:22 say you've been granted security that
0:34:23 that person is safe
0:34:24 is that exactly exactly phraseology like
0:34:26 what is the word you have to use what's
0:34:28 that man no no what do you say that the
0:34:30 person said do you say this person like
0:34:31 my protection
0:34:32 what was the exact what would be the
0:34:34 thing that they have to say
0:34:36 the most step for the to grant the
0:34:37 statement to grant him his rights
0:34:42 what do we say to them verbally that
0:34:45 they're under protection is there a
0:34:46 specific word or can you say anything
0:34:47 he's under my protection i protect him
0:34:49 anything or is it anything
0:34:51 anything anything that indicates it
0:34:52 right
0:34:53 yeah anything that indicates it yeah
0:34:55 it's a good question
0:34:56 um so yeah anything that indicates of
0:34:58 the shareholder
0:34:59 yeah so that's that's the muslim and
0:35:01 then you have the heartbeat the
0:35:02 heartbeat is the one that you can fight
0:35:04 because the hubby literally means the
0:35:06 the combatant
0:35:08 that's that's how you would define a
0:35:10 hardware combatant thus you can fight
0:35:12 him
0:35:14 uh and so that's the combatant
0:35:16 what would you expect to do with the
0:35:17 combatant i mean i mean
0:35:19 except to go into combat with him
0:35:22 anyway so these are the four categories
0:35:24 the the reason why i was saying that is
0:35:26 because going back to the point
0:35:28 this hadith is actually quite important
0:35:29 because in hajj alaska
0:35:31 he said of the hadith that it says
0:35:37 whoever kills and so basically he says
0:35:41 here is not talking about the third
0:35:42 category of four
0:35:45 he said included within me and that
0:35:46 muslim that's what says about this he
0:35:49 says in this hadith
0:35:51 it's
0:35:52 not the salah has not used it it's like
0:35:54 we're not talking about only he says
0:35:56 that it includes also the
0:35:59 the muslim anderson me
0:36:01 which which which means what if you
0:36:02 really wanted to translate it it means
0:36:04 all the categories except for which
0:36:06 the habi so you if yani if we wanted to
0:36:09 explain the hadith we say whoever kills
0:36:11 a non-combatant non-believer
0:36:14 he will never smell the fragrance of
0:36:16 gender
0:36:19 it's done really isn't it the job has
0:36:21 been uh has been done
0:36:24 but then they'll they'll turn back and i
0:36:26 remember as a young man
0:36:28 listening to anwar al-awlaki
0:36:30 i used to listen to the sierra and he's
0:36:32 he had a very probably one of the best
0:36:34 styles
0:36:35 uh
0:36:36 you know
0:36:37 in terms of speech in terms of eloquence
0:36:39 in terms of
0:36:41 the mix and all that but he would say
0:36:43 something he would always put something
0:36:45 in that in the context which would be
0:36:46 you know he's
0:36:48 he's got an agenda
0:36:52 and the agenda was not dissimilar from
0:36:54 the
0:36:55 al-qaeda agenda
0:36:57 of course the
0:36:58 tribe where he's from and from yemen
0:37:01 were all i mean not all of them but they
0:37:02 were connected to al-qaeda and so you
0:37:04 have to remember that
0:37:06 i met i met at yemeni one time he was he
0:37:08 was from a tribe which is nearing and he
0:37:09 said look you needed something because i
0:37:11 was a young man i want to know about
0:37:12 this guy andrade he said you've got to
0:37:14 understand that
0:37:16 actually
0:37:17 his tribe was actually they're all
0:37:18 involved in that
0:37:20 and when he went to prison he was pushed
0:37:22 into already so he already had the seeds
0:37:24 plowed into him from a young age when he
0:37:25 used to go to yemen
0:37:28 but anyway
0:37:30 he would say things like well the
0:37:31 prophet sallam and the sahaba would go
0:37:33 into an expedition
0:37:35 and they
0:37:37 they would kill the you know the
0:37:38 mushrikeen
0:37:39 and then they would go back to the
0:37:40 prophet and some some of them were
0:37:42 non-combatants
0:37:43 and they would go to prophet muhammed
0:37:45 and they would say
0:37:48 muslim they are part of them make it
0:37:50 seem like
0:37:51 don't worry about it they've been killed
0:37:53 but they're part of they're part of it
0:37:55 they're part of the collateral damage
0:37:57 then
0:37:59 how would you respond to such a thing
0:38:01 abraham
0:38:03 so
0:38:04 very famously you're referring to the
0:38:05 incident that took place and when some
0:38:07 companions went on an expedition and uh
0:38:10 they ended up killing some of the
0:38:12 children and
0:38:13 women of the combatants
0:38:15 unintentionally it was like collateral
0:38:17 damage right and they came back to the
0:38:18 prophet sallallahu alaihi and they
0:38:19 explained to him what happened and he
0:38:20 said
0:38:22 but
0:38:23 uh i don't know whether it's
0:38:24 intentionally or not but they always
0:38:25 forget to mention that
0:38:26 in the narration of ahmed he mentions
0:38:28 that uh
0:38:30 do you want
0:38:42 any muslim doing that yeah which is and
0:38:45 is it
0:38:46 death was it like go and kill no all
0:38:49 right
0:38:50 it was it was it was unintended yes
0:38:53 and
0:38:54 the prophet says
0:38:55 okay is there any other hadith that
0:38:57 indicates that
0:38:58 very clearly
0:38:59 that i'm sure some here aware of
0:39:02 that just because people are
0:39:03 disbelievers it doesn't matter it
0:39:05 doesn't mean that you can
0:39:08 kill them yeah go ahead
0:39:11 you haven't got it
0:39:12 well i'll give you three minutes to
0:39:14 research that one and i'll let everybody
0:39:16 else research that one as well
0:39:19 and in the meantime
0:39:21 i'll see you guys later
0:39:23 and you can speak to the person next to
0:39:24 you because we need to make sure we have
0:39:26 these references in place
0:39:28 three minutes and we'll be back to speak
0:39:31 about it
0:39:32 all right so let's come back now we've
0:39:34 hopefully done a bit of research sharpen
0:39:36 the tools
0:39:40 what you got for us
0:39:41 yeah
0:39:42 okay so one of the companions said
0:39:48 i went on four expeditions with the
0:39:50 prophet salallahu
0:39:56 so there was a specific uh
0:39:59 number of companions who accidentally
0:40:01 killed some of the family members of the
0:40:02 combatants
0:40:06 and that news reached the prophet
0:40:07 salallahu
0:40:14 he said what's wrong with the people who
0:40:15 fight until they
0:40:17 kill the innocent the family members of
0:40:20 of the combatants
0:40:36 the prophet replied and said indeed the
0:40:37 best of you are the children of
0:40:38 polytheists
0:40:40 fantastic so which indicates what
0:40:43 which indicates that the action itself
0:40:44 wasn't good yeah and that uh if that was
0:40:47 a reasoning then why
0:40:49 if that was rare if the reasoning was
0:40:51 that they were non-believers then the
0:40:53 sahabah themselves were a lot of them
0:40:54 were not believers before right yep
0:40:55 exactly excellent now where is this
0:40:57 mentioned is hadith
0:41:00 the great imam ahmed of course you know
0:41:04 and this is the senate what's wrong with
0:41:06 the senate is there anything wrong with
0:41:07 the senate is there some kalama yeah
0:41:09 there is some query
0:41:10 yeah okay well i'll tell you what there
0:41:12 isn't any senate on which is that when
0:41:14 khalid walid
0:41:15 when he went into uh when they were into
0:41:17 mecca
0:41:18 and he killed some of the innocent
0:41:20 people and he says
0:41:26 that i am disassociated from what it did
0:41:30 and it's interesting that he did not say
0:41:31 i am disassociated from khalid himself
0:41:33 but he says
0:41:37 i am disassociated from what he has done
0:41:40 and what did he do he killed some people
0:41:41 who are non-combatants
0:41:45 i don't know how many people there were
0:41:46 the details
0:42:00 he saw a woman in the battlefield and
0:42:03 she was killed he said it wasn't for her
0:42:04 to be killed
0:42:07 and what did abu bakr
0:42:08 say
0:42:10 about
0:42:11 killing the innocents and
0:42:13 cutting the trees and stuff like that
0:42:16 yeah i don't know specifically but not
0:42:19 to you know harm men women children
0:42:22 elderly trees
0:42:23 uh monks
0:42:26 that's why i remember i think it was 10
0:42:28 in total does anyone know the exact same
0:42:30 direct commandment yeah
0:42:31 monks and women children
0:42:35 um
0:42:37 do you want to say in arabic slaves
0:42:39 and
0:42:40 yeah that's what anyone okay good yeah
0:42:42 perfect all right and this is what he
0:42:44 mentioned yeah
0:42:46 so so is this enough evidence there's
0:42:48 one more evidence i don't know if you
0:42:49 can it's it's not specific
0:42:51 it's a principle
0:42:52 um if like you said before when i was
0:42:54 listening on the phone that you said the
0:42:56 whole concept of jihad is to give tawa
0:42:58 so how can you give tawa to people
0:43:00 you're going to kill
0:43:01 and if you think about it it's like okay
0:43:03 we want you to come to islam but if our
0:43:05 religion teaches that we should be
0:43:06 killing non-combatants it defeats the
0:43:07 whole purpose of us
0:43:09 to start like you know jihad the whole
0:43:11 purpose is what to fight the powers that
0:43:13 are controlling these masses you want to
0:43:14 break those shackles so they can hear
0:43:16 the message of allah so this isn't a
0:43:18 defeat the purpose of islam's principles
0:43:20 that i want to give to these people yet
0:43:22 again you believe that we're out there
0:43:23 to kill them it defeats the whole
0:43:24 purpose we want them alive we don't want
0:43:26 them to die you know we want them to
0:43:28 hear the message of islam even if they
0:43:29 accept it or not can we not say this
0:43:30 yeah that's i think that's a good point
0:43:32 i think that is a good point
0:43:33 uh this is very good uh i'm happy with
0:43:35 the responses so far is there anything
0:43:37 else anyone wants to say
0:43:38 yeah the sake of like so we cover all
0:43:40 these things there's two things i want
0:43:41 to mention
0:43:42 first is to address the idea that you
0:43:44 know some people say that like you
0:43:45 mentioned with abrogation that there's a
0:43:47 sort of like a temperamental shift that
0:43:49 happens once you enter medina and that's
0:43:51 when apparently you know that the
0:43:52 muslims become more violent it's the
0:43:54 blood is halal obviously you have the
0:43:55 verse in bakara that there's no
0:43:57 compulsion in religion that you're not
0:43:58 allowed to force any person to become a
0:43:59 muslim which is important because when
0:44:01 people hear the idea of like you know
0:44:04 war with like maybe say a religious
0:44:05 underpinning or religious incentive they
0:44:07 attach it to i guess a history of
0:44:10 of a sectarian conflicts where people
0:44:11 are being
0:44:12 burned at the stake and whatever to be
0:44:14 forced to convert to religion so it's
0:44:15 very explicit in the quran that you're
0:44:16 not allowed to do that
0:44:18 but then also
0:44:19 as far as the argument like from
0:44:21 reciprocity is concerned that they're
0:44:22 killing us so we're going to kill them
0:44:23 in the same way
0:44:25 there's a good really good example from
0:44:26 the madani syrah so
0:44:28 they mentioned the tafsir that
0:44:30 of surah nahal like it's a makisura
0:44:33 apart from the last three ayat
0:44:52 then it's better for those who
0:44:54 are righteous and so as far as like the
0:44:56 the context of the ayah um so there's
0:44:59 there's another sort of sorry about some
0:45:01 say that it's weak but there's this
0:45:02 stronger one and what i've read is that
0:45:04 um basically it mentions in the wrote in
0:45:07 the that obviously
0:45:09 obviously had 60 of the uh ansar that
0:45:11 were killed and four of them
0:45:13 and so when they went to conquer mecca
0:45:16 you know people said things like you
0:45:17 know that there's no quraish after today
0:45:19 that today's the day of slaughter and
0:45:20 that type of thing and the prasad sallam
0:45:22 he said uh this ayah was revealed at
0:45:24 that time so what they're saying and
0:45:25 then
0:45:26 uh he didn't like you know go ahead and
0:45:28 kill 60 and
0:45:30 or 64 in the same way as they did to him
0:45:32 but he actually chose a path of of
0:45:34 greater mercy and and forgave all of
0:45:35 them and said that you know that there's
0:45:37 no sort of uh letter three about
0:45:39 there's no sort of retribution against
0:45:41 you today so it's a very strong evidence
0:45:43 again these are all good really good
0:45:44 points of
0:45:46 evidence now what would uh say
0:45:50 people who want to put forward the
0:45:52 expansionist narrative
0:45:55 what do you think they what do they say
0:45:56 and what
0:45:58 what are their main arguments
0:46:00 uh well obviously uh the uh
0:46:03 when we're dealing with uh an empire
0:46:06 like uh persia on one side and rome on
0:46:10 another side
0:46:11 and you're in the middle and you're a
0:46:13 tribal culture you're going to get
0:46:15 crushed once they see that there's
0:46:17 unity between the tribes
0:46:20 um
0:46:21 initially
0:46:22 after the death of the prophet peace be
0:46:25 upon him
0:46:26 um
0:46:29 he took over and
0:46:31 he became khalifa
0:46:33 he had to deal immediately with a series
0:46:35 of
0:46:36 rebellions among the tribes
0:46:38 which were the riddler wars the wars of
0:46:40 apostasy so
0:46:42 and it was during the these particular
0:46:45 battles that uh the brilliance of the
0:46:47 field commanders khalid bin walid and
0:46:50 omar bin khattab
0:46:52 was distinguished
0:46:54 and subsequently he initiated the
0:46:57 expansion
0:46:58 of the uh the nascent empire into
0:47:01 the byzantine and the persian empires so
0:47:04 this was kind of unheard of for this uh
0:47:07 ragtag bunch of tribes to challenge not
0:47:10 one but two superpowers
0:47:12 so he initiated that the um the
0:47:15 subsequent khalifa uh he only reigned
0:47:17 for two two years unfortunately
0:47:20 and
0:47:21 then there was uh omar bin khattab
0:47:23 he was khalifa for 10 10 years exactly
0:47:27 it was during his
0:47:29 that the
0:47:30 rashidun
0:47:32 the islamic empire saw its biggest
0:47:34 expansion and encompassing two
0:47:36 continents
0:47:38 and it covered uh two million
0:47:41 two hundred thousand square miles and
0:47:42 four thousand and fifty cities
0:47:45 uh he conquered
0:47:46 uh the levant egypt modern libya eastern
0:47:49 turkey anatolia and a vast majority of
0:47:52 the sassanid persian empire
0:47:54 as far as macron in balochistan
0:47:58 he was a strong just ruler who initiated
0:48:00 many policies that we can recognize as
0:48:04 the staple of the welfare state
0:48:06 so we can see many of these things in in
0:48:08 our life today
0:48:10 the
0:48:11 initiatives that he did his expansion
0:48:14 was
0:48:15 tempered by his desire to consolidate
0:48:17 the enormous empire so he knew he
0:48:20 couldn't expand too far because it would
0:48:22 be impossible to control
0:48:24 and for one
0:48:26 one curious thing is he was reluctant to
0:48:28 use naval warfare he was invited twice
0:48:31 by mwaviya to conquer syria by the sea
0:48:35 but here twice he actually rejected that
0:48:38 notion he was focused on concentrating
0:48:40 this enormous empire
0:48:42 after him we had uh osman
0:48:46 who he ruled from 644 to 656
0:48:51 and
0:48:53 within his uh period in 655 we can say
0:48:56 that the islamic caliphate encompassed
0:48:59 six million four hundred thousand square
0:49:01 kilometers which is enormous
0:49:04 and it was in his reign that uh a
0:49:08 further expansion was made into um
0:49:12 into persia he completed the conquest of
0:49:14 persia
0:49:15 up until balochistan
0:49:17 and that became fully under the laws of
0:49:20 the khilafah
0:49:21 and he
0:49:22 extended the realm into morocco as well
0:49:25 and north into armenia and azerbaijan
0:49:28 and he established the first um islamic
0:49:30 naval force as well
0:49:32 that was the first time
0:49:34 he defeated the byzantine navy in the
0:49:36 battle of the mosques in 655
0:49:40 opening up the mediterranean
0:49:41 mediterranean sea to the muslims
0:49:44 uh the final righteous riley
0:49:48 excuse me rightly guided khalifa was uh
0:49:50 ali uh
0:49:53 and he he was khalifa from 656 to
0:49:56 661
0:49:58 and his was a turbulent reign
0:50:00 unfortunately his was he was
0:50:03 kind of prevented from further expansion
0:50:06 by trying to again consolidate this vast
0:50:08 empire
0:50:10 and uh it was uh uh during his uh
0:50:14 cons you know it was because of the
0:50:16 events that happened during his reign
0:50:18 that he was uh assassinated
0:50:20 unfortunately
0:50:21 uh which resulted in the first islamic
0:50:23 civil war
0:50:25 well that's these are all really
0:50:26 important points is there any evidence
0:50:28 of
0:50:29 these caliphs going into different
0:50:31 empires and try forcibly converting the
0:50:34 the non-combatant population
0:50:36 um well
0:50:38 there's um there's evidence that they
0:50:41 sent uh emissaries and uh various
0:50:44 letters cordially inviting to those uh
0:50:47 to the religion
0:50:48 and in some cases they were mentioned
0:50:51 they were mentioned that they were
0:50:53 very rudely uh rejected
0:50:56 and obviously the the main point that we
0:50:58 have to remember is that it was
0:51:01 either they um expanded or they got uh
0:51:04 contracted they would have been
0:51:06 obliterated i think that's a very way as
0:51:08 a some muslim memorizable statement
0:51:10 there
0:51:11 you know either expanded or get
0:51:12 contracted they would have been
0:51:13 obliterated it's a very good way of
0:51:16 putting it because that is the
0:51:17 international relations
0:51:19 realist framework
0:51:21 there were no
0:51:23 organizations like the un
0:51:25 not to say that these organizations are
0:51:27 any good
0:51:28 they are basically an extension of the
0:51:29 us
0:51:30 but they will know
0:51:32 world
0:51:33 after world war ii the league of nations
0:51:35 or anything like that so it's this is a
0:51:37 kind of anachronism that a lot of people
0:51:39 face
0:51:40 because we are living in a post-world
0:51:42 war two environment
0:51:44 you know with the league of nations then
0:51:45 turned un and imo and the
0:51:48 wh oh no imf all that stuff the people
0:51:52 almost think that that stuff existed
0:51:55 a thousand years ago it doesn't exist a
0:51:57 thousand years ago
0:51:58 more even 500 not even 100 years ago
0:52:02 and it was all against all
0:52:04 and it has always been like that
0:52:08 until very fairly recently
0:52:11 that's why you have things like
0:52:14 what is referred to now as pax americana
0:52:18 because you have america as the
0:52:19 superpower it checks all the other
0:52:21 nations no one else wants to fight them
0:52:22 because of how strong they are
0:52:25 but when you have countries which are
0:52:27 of similar strength and size there's
0:52:29 more conflict that happens
0:52:33 it's like when you have a father big
0:52:34 father in the house then you have the
0:52:36 children the children behave themselves
0:52:38 if you leave the kids alone in the house
0:52:40 they fight each other
0:52:43 domestic violence happens by the way
0:52:45 mostly with homosexual
0:52:47 partners
0:52:48 yeah i just want to wake you guys up by
0:52:50 telling you something which is why
0:52:52 because they're equal
0:52:53 strength you know
0:52:55 if there's a man the woman then there's
0:52:56 a disparity in strength
0:53:00 this is a very high level like lesbian
0:53:03 domestic violence very high homosexual
0:53:05 very high because it's equal equality
0:53:07 and strength
0:53:09 it's the same thing in households as it
0:53:10 is in world
0:53:12 in in countries
0:53:14 absolutely you know and there's a verse
0:53:16 in the quran that indicates that where
0:53:18 is it
0:53:20 if there was more than two they would
0:53:21 fight
0:53:22 no no that's a different verse i'm
0:53:24 thinking of there's two there's two
0:53:25 verses there well
0:53:42 so if what does this verse mean
0:53:46 who remembers he wants to get out and
0:53:48 translate it
0:53:49 for us nice clean good translation
0:54:21 it's basically talking about how some
0:54:23 people have been given uh permission and
0:54:25 authority over others so you know and
0:54:28 allah you know this is after uh dawood
0:54:30 and jaloot um you know had allah not
0:54:33 driven back some people by means of
0:54:35 others the earth would surely be
0:54:37 corrupted and allah is um you know
0:54:40 bountiful to all these creatures okay
0:54:42 and the other one
0:54:43 and in uh surah hajj
0:54:48 allah says
0:54:49 those who have been unjustly driven from
0:54:51 their homes only because they say
0:54:53 our lord is allah for had it not been
0:54:55 for repelling by allah some men by means
0:54:57 of others the monasteries and churches
0:55:00 the synagogues and mosques in which the
0:55:02 name of allah is frequently remembered
0:55:03 would surely have been destroyed surely
0:55:06 allah helps the one who helps him allah
0:55:08 is indeed powerful mighty yeah yeah i
0:55:11 mean
0:55:14 some say that's just talking about a
0:55:15 massage by the way because
0:55:17 anyway but the point is
0:55:19 sometimes fighting is necessary
0:55:21 but if it happens all the time then it
0:55:23 will just be
0:55:24 perpetual
0:55:26 so
0:55:27 the pacifist this is basically it's an
0:55:29 it's a polemic against pacifism
0:55:33 it's if you think about it the quran
0:55:35 refutes pacifism
0:55:37 and a lot of the questions people ask
0:55:40 have pacifistic assumptions
0:55:43 which is why i want to produce i want to
0:55:45 you guys to remember one thing at this
0:55:46 point and then we'll go to
0:55:48 the orientalist what they say because
0:55:50 you've got something i haven't you for
0:55:51 us yeah and you've got uh
0:55:53 you have
0:55:55 now you've got what have you got today
0:55:56 for us
0:56:00 oh good good good we'll come to that a
0:56:02 second
0:56:03 actually if this isn't sexual
0:56:04 expressionism can you tell us right now
0:56:06 let's go to let's go to
0:56:09 yeah let's do that and then i'll tell
0:56:10 you how to answer these questions yeah
0:56:11 go on
0:56:14 yeah yeah well it could please ex
0:56:16 continue the expansionism
0:56:18 uh
0:56:19 i don't have much to say um
0:56:21 apart from the fact that uh uh
0:56:24 when when
0:56:25 muslims invaded new cities uh
0:56:29 they were given a specific orders that
0:56:30 um they were not allowed to enter into
0:56:32 the cities uh and basically take away
0:56:35 people's homes they were
0:56:36 they were made to build garrison towns
0:56:38 surrounding the cities and and muslim uh
0:56:41 muslims who uh the muslim soldiers would
0:56:43 live in the garrison towers around them
0:56:45 uh even though this frustrated some
0:56:47 soldiers who basically wanted to loot uh
0:56:50 the the caliph at the time was very
0:56:52 serious about this about uh
0:56:55 not doing so
0:56:56 this eventually led to some problems
0:56:58 with some people were betting against
0:57:01 kind of like us
0:57:02 but they were strict on this issue yeah
0:57:05 so that was one point i wanted to
0:57:06 mention um
0:57:08 apart from that i don't think i have
0:57:09 anything to say well you said you made a
0:57:11 very good point
0:57:14 how about you tell us what you've
0:57:16 learned uh today you've done orientalism
0:57:18 right
0:57:19 kind of yeah tell us tell us
0:57:22 what you what you picked up
0:57:24 um
0:57:28 so i wanted to find orientation first
0:57:30 and
0:57:31 so
0:57:33 uh
0:57:35 edward said
0:57:37 yeah
0:57:38 he defined he wrote a book
0:57:42 1978
0:57:43 called
0:57:44 orientalism
0:57:46 and
0:57:46 in this book he tries to
0:57:49 argue that a dominant european
0:57:51 dominant european political ideology
0:57:53 created
0:57:55 the notion of orient
0:57:57 to basically
0:58:00 subjugate and control the narrative
0:58:03 about
0:58:05 middle east
0:58:06 north africa asia
0:58:09 and
0:58:10 so he explains that the concept embodies
0:58:12 distinct between yeast
0:58:14 meaning orient and with
0:58:17 you mean oxidant precisely so the waste
0:58:20 could control the
0:58:22 control and authorize the views
0:58:24 of the east
0:58:26 and
0:58:29 this nexus of power and knowledge
0:58:31 enables the waste to basically
0:58:33 generalize
0:58:34 and
0:58:35 misrepresent north africa
0:58:37 and you know
0:58:38 and middle east and uh
0:58:40 indonesia yeah
0:58:42 um so starting from this
0:58:44 premise it would be of no surprise if
0:58:47 this orientalists they also
0:58:50 misinterpret
0:58:54 jihad or other islamic teachings yeah
0:58:58 so it's commonly assumed that west
0:59:01 for west jihadifest exclusively to
0:59:05 aggression yeah
0:59:08 and that's the assumption
0:59:12 sorry
0:59:13 so also
0:59:16 most western academics
0:59:19 will focus exclusively on the aggressive
0:59:22 dimensions of jihad
0:59:25 um
0:59:26 and they will use the chronic text
0:59:29 as we mentioned before
0:59:30 beautiful actually that's this is a
0:59:33 really good point uh what you're saying
0:59:34 now because
0:59:36 i like the fact that you're now bringing
0:59:38 in
0:59:39 questioning the assumption because that
0:59:41 should be the very first thing we do
0:59:42 when we deal with these kind of
0:59:43 shabbahat
0:59:46 has an assumption
0:59:47 and it's our job to to unpack that
0:59:49 assumption
0:59:52 now
0:59:52 bringing in orientalism here is very
0:59:54 important because
0:59:56 obviously there's a whole school of
0:59:58 thought now called post-colonialism and
1:00:00 edward said
1:00:02 he wrote this book he was a christian
1:00:04 palestinian he wrote a book which is
1:00:06 basically studied in almost any course
1:00:09 of sociology or anthropology or i don't
1:00:11 know
1:00:12 even maybe psychology
1:00:14 almost all this even philosophy yeah
1:00:16 which is called
1:00:18 orientalism no surprises there
1:00:21 and he he was one of many pioneers that
1:00:24 started off this school of thought
1:00:27 uh
1:00:28 another one would it be franz fanon you
1:00:30 should know these names these are
1:00:31 important names these are very important
1:00:32 names
1:00:33 okay he was another postcolonial writer
1:00:36 postcolonial right is very important
1:00:39 and we're not saying we agree with all
1:00:42 of the the assumptions that edward syed
1:00:44 had made he had post-modernist
1:00:46 assumptions he had
1:00:47 gramscian assumptions in fact marxist
1:00:50 assumptions
1:00:51 and other assumptions but he made some
1:00:53 really really good points and that book
1:00:55 was a classic undoubtedly one of the
1:00:57 most remarkable
1:00:58 uh books and one of the strongest
1:01:00 arguments made
1:01:02 in the 20th century
1:01:03 undoubtedly that and the way he writes
1:01:06 in english is phenomenal to say the very
1:01:09 least i mean if you've
1:01:11 just read the introduction of that book
1:01:13 if you haven't you you really should
1:01:14 it's if you want to grow in cultural
1:01:16 capital and understand
1:01:18 what the discourses and the narratives
1:01:21 are
1:01:21 that book at least two or three chapters
1:01:24 of it is actually a must read otherwise
1:01:26 you know you will not understand
1:01:29 some of the things on the high level and
1:01:30 especially we go to level two
1:01:34 but what what he does which is very good
1:01:36 and very important is he shows us that
1:01:39 orientalists or people who are elite
1:01:43 speakers
1:01:44 uh or
1:01:46 narrative knowledge producers yeah in
1:01:48 the west
1:01:50 they position the orient which is like
1:01:52 the eastern world because
1:01:55 what's the opposite of orion is the
1:01:56 oxidant
1:01:57 yeah
1:01:59 where we are we're we're the oxygen not
1:02:01 right now in the west
1:02:03 orient is the east okay so they position
1:02:06 themselves in a very privileged position
1:02:09 make it seem as if the precepts that we
1:02:12 have
1:02:12 are on
1:02:13 our remarkable precepts
1:02:16 our extraordinary precepts
1:02:18 basically put it this way they make us
1:02:20 the subject of investigation
1:02:23 and what he does is really powerful
1:02:25 he looks at things like the national
1:02:27 geographic
1:02:28 even till this day i go and i can never
1:02:31 have the same experience with the
1:02:32 national geographic ever again
1:02:34 i go on the instagram page of the
1:02:36 national geographic and i see like an
1:02:38 african guy there
1:02:40 and they got like an african guy
1:02:42 wearing like you know this kind of
1:02:44 whatever he's wearing
1:02:45 or i see like an indian guy or something
1:02:48 you get me
1:02:49 and i'm thinking what about if i made a
1:02:50 book or a magazine and just put white
1:02:52 people in there
1:02:54 now they would think of that as a
1:02:55 comical thing like not white people in
1:02:57 there a fashion magazine or a you know
1:03:00 men's health magazine i'm talking about
1:03:02 as a subject of investigation almost
1:03:04 like you're dealing with animals
1:03:07 sorry to say like it's a zoo here the
1:03:09 national jew and
1:03:10 funny enough in these magazines you may
1:03:12 have one picture of a man and then the
1:03:14 next picture of a giraffe
1:03:16 or a zebra or something
1:03:19 and and so basically what does that do
1:03:21 it
1:03:22 it makes
1:03:23 the the orient the subject of
1:03:25 investigation
1:03:26 it makes the orient like you the other
1:03:28 you're something that we need to look at
1:03:29 as a peculiar
1:03:31 you know you're unusual it's called
1:03:33 authorizing i'm sure you've heard of
1:03:36 this uh term it's very important these
1:03:37 terms and this is something you can
1:03:39 learn
1:03:40 from the or we can learn from the
1:03:42 orientalists are these terms that they
1:03:44 use authorizing
1:03:46 ostracizing
1:03:47 subjective investigation
1:03:50 and sometimes they can even make us the
1:03:51 impossible subject
1:03:53 like whatever you do the import the
1:03:55 impossible subject
1:03:57 yeah you can't even be
1:03:59 you you're an impossible person
1:04:02 so
1:04:03 what they'll do with jihad is a
1:04:05 beautiful thing for them because they
1:04:06 will use it to do all those things
1:04:08 with jihad they'll use that in order to
1:04:10 say this is this is why they are
1:04:12 different from us
1:04:14 this this jihad is why these muslims are
1:04:16 different from us
1:04:17 yeah
1:04:18 i don't know if this was in his book um
1:04:21 but i decided i saw an interview where
1:04:23 he mentions when the oklahoma bombings
1:04:25 happened in america
1:04:26 and he said that the media named it as
1:04:28 this looks like a middle eastern bombing
1:04:30 yeah interesting and he was like what do
1:04:32 you mean by a middle eastern bombing
1:04:34 what does a middle eastern
1:04:35 explosion look like that's different
1:04:36 from the western ones right and it was
1:04:38 fun well they found out that it was
1:04:40 actually fundamental christians from a
1:04:41 second actually took this and also i
1:04:43 think was one of the biggest atrocities
1:04:45 that happened in america in american
1:04:46 history so he was like you know he was
1:04:48 getting like interviews and stuff like
1:04:49 that and he was shocked it was like you
1:04:51 know like what the hell is this like a
1:04:52 middle eastern bombing like what the
1:04:54 hell does that mean you know so it just
1:04:56 shows you like you know like you said
1:04:57 for example the attitude that they take
1:04:59 even to an explosion that they look and
1:05:00 be like oh this this looks like a middle
1:05:03 eastern kind and it's like yes
1:05:05 that's a really good really good point
1:05:07 and so it's questioning the assumptions
1:05:09 and basically this is the way they want
1:05:11 to put it they we need to make sure that
1:05:13 they understand that the concept of
1:05:15 combative jihad
1:05:16 is an unremarkable context
1:05:19 not only the medieval period but even
1:05:21 contemporaneously even now it's
1:05:23 unremarkable almost every nation has an
1:05:25 import jihad concept in it
1:05:27 but you're using something because it's
1:05:29 violence
1:05:30 this violence involved you're using it
1:05:33 to try and otherize the muslim people a
1:05:36 whole community of individuals where
1:05:38 there's really nothing there's nothing
1:05:40 remarkable about what they are
1:05:42 practicing compared to other people but
1:05:44 you want excuse to go into their land
1:05:47 and one thing i will say and this is
1:05:48 very important another line of
1:05:50 argumentation because all of this is
1:05:51 defensive now we need to now move on to
1:05:53 the offensive
1:05:54 and show
1:05:55 that in the last 100 years really sorry
1:05:58 to say but most of the killings have
1:06:00 been done at the hands of secular people
1:06:03 nationalists liberals
1:06:05 liberalism itself was spread by the
1:06:06 sword
1:06:07 liberalism itself was it was was there
1:06:10 alongside uh colonialism
1:06:14 there's nothing within the framework of
1:06:15 liberalism which actually rejects
1:06:18 colonialism or slavery or racial slavery
1:06:21 or racism
1:06:22 that's very interesting isn't it
1:06:24 nothing within liberalism rejects racism
1:06:28 but there is something within islam that
1:06:29 does
1:06:30 racial slavery and all this there's lots
1:06:32 of things in islam which reject all of
1:06:33 those things
1:06:35 however this is one point
1:06:37 the second thing is on the ground look
1:06:39 at world war one world war two just
1:06:41 combine the casualties and those two
1:06:42 wars is is probably more than all the
1:06:45 casualties in islamic history
1:06:47 just in these two wars
1:06:49 and there is a book that's actually been
1:06:51 written i've been looking for it i think
1:06:52 it's up here somewhere maybe it's up
1:06:55 there it's called war or something
1:06:56 warren peace can you see it
1:06:58 yeah can you can you go can you get it
1:07:00 for me sorry
1:07:01 there is a book that this man i mean
1:07:03 methodologically obviously there's going
1:07:05 to be some issues here but
1:07:07 he does a good job this um
1:07:09 the front of this book
1:07:11 is by pro professor muhammad
1:07:14 i think he's actually
1:07:15 zakat i don't know
1:07:17 where he's from
1:07:18 but this brother here his name is
1:07:22 he's a professor his name is
1:07:26 naveed
1:07:28 okay his name is
1:07:30 and this is chapter seven of the book
1:07:32 it's called body count
1:07:33 okay body card not that kind of body
1:07:35 count i know you're thinking brother
1:07:36 okay that's a different kind of body
1:07:38 count
1:07:38 now
1:07:40 it's a different kind of body count what
1:07:42 he does is he looks at all of this he
1:07:44 compartmentalizes different um
1:07:45 civilizations so he got antitheist
1:07:48 buddhist christian indic islamic
1:07:51 and then primal indigenous and then
1:07:53 scenic yeah
1:07:55 and he looks at all of the events the
1:07:56 major events in world history
1:07:58 yeah this is very interesting
1:08:01 and then he at the end of it he tries to
1:08:03 to rank who which is the most bloody and
1:08:06 the most vicious
1:08:08 in terms of numbers people that have
1:08:09 been killed
1:08:10 he does have a graph here
1:08:13 of course of course you may of course
1:08:14 you may
1:08:16 and look he's got even here like somalia
1:08:18 mad mullah jihad in somalia 18 99 10 19.
1:08:21 so you know about that you're present in
1:08:22 that one right
1:08:24 again
1:08:27 um
1:08:28 i need to get something from another
1:08:30 country just to
1:08:33 all right
1:08:35 for you the finnish civil war you were
1:08:37 follow that word
1:08:41 and then they got like you know the
1:08:42 american wars of independence and stuff
1:08:44 like that
1:08:49 all right so look they got they got a
1:08:51 minimum death toll maximum death toll
1:08:53 and a minion that's so i'm not sure if
1:08:54 anyone can see it here right very
1:08:56 interesting i mean this is uh
1:08:58 the methodology can always be but it
1:09:00 gives you a ballpark kind of
1:09:02 understanding at the top you have
1:09:04 anti-theist 95 million people died
1:09:07 antithesis meaning he's talking about
1:09:08 communists and all this 95 million
1:09:10 people died
1:09:12 yeah top
1:09:14 you know maximum death toll 100 so it's
1:09:16 anywhere between 95 to 152 million
1:09:18 people
1:09:20 buddhist number two
1:09:22 the religion of peace that was always
1:09:23 about
1:09:26 you know they weren't doing nirvana when
1:09:27 they did that but i mean once again that
1:09:29 might have been nirvana for them and it
1:09:31 might have been part of their struggle
1:09:32 their our struggle
1:09:34 christian that's number three 119
1:09:36 million to 236 million oh you've got the
1:09:38 colonial wars you've got so many things
1:09:40 you've got the crusades you've got some
1:09:42 serious things there then you have
1:09:44 number one two three four
1:09:47 is the indic
1:09:48 so like here it's including all these
1:09:50 kind of things in in indian rich
1:09:51 subcontinent region and then you have
1:09:53 the islamic
1:09:55 we're not saying we top the chart but
1:09:56 we're definitely nowhere near the top of
1:09:57 it i mean the the we don't say we bottom
1:10:00 the chart but nowhere near the top of it
1:10:02 right so we're number five according to
1:10:04 this guy
1:10:05 uh war and peace in islam
1:10:07 interesting book uh
1:10:09 it's this bookmarks you can uh you can
1:10:11 play with it but you see these are the
1:10:13 kind of there's nothing unremarkable
1:10:15 about the history
1:10:17 of islamic jihad about the practice of
1:10:19 islamic jihad now one last thing i'm
1:10:21 going to say is this
1:10:23 and this one this is going to be the
1:10:24 structure we're going to use for all of
1:10:26 the shabu hat
1:10:27 it's called the apec structure
1:10:30 the apec structure
1:10:32 okay
1:10:33 and it's an acronym just like go wrap is
1:10:34 an acronym a pekka is also an acronym so
1:10:38 i want to tell you the apache structure
1:10:39 way to write it down and then we'll call
1:10:41 it a day for today yeah
1:10:44 the apeca structure a stands for
1:10:46 assumption
1:10:47 so if someone comes with any subha
1:10:50 any um
1:10:52 thing that he wants a doubt that he
1:10:54 wants to attack islam
1:10:56 and he asks you a question and so this
1:10:58 has to be in the frame of them asking
1:10:59 you a question
1:11:01 so now you're on the defensive this is
1:11:02 how you counter them right
1:11:05 a stands for assumption
1:11:08 p stands for point
1:11:11 so now you make your point and this
1:11:12 reminds you of gcses and a levels and
1:11:14 stuff p e and all that
1:11:16 e stands for evidence
1:11:19 c
1:11:21 stands for counter example
1:11:26 yeah so what they would say yeah
1:11:30 and then a is for analysis so then you
1:11:32 come back to your own argument
1:11:35 so for example give me a question that
1:11:37 you've heard
1:11:39 being asked about jihad
1:11:42 that's just any question you've heard
1:11:45 yeah
1:11:46 why are so many of the terrorist groups
1:11:48 nowadays from the muslims
1:11:52 okay so what let me ask the group what
1:11:54 is uh what are some of the assumptions
1:11:57 here
1:12:00 that could be an assumption
1:12:03 that terrorism is linked to islam
1:12:05 there's a deeper assumption
1:12:07 this is very important i'm happy with
1:12:08 doing this
1:12:09 because
1:12:11 this is this is where most people fail
1:12:13 you need to really think about a before
1:12:14 we move on
1:12:17 if you said terrorist groups
1:12:19 so what have they where have they drawn
1:12:21 the parameters yeah so so
1:12:23 they're basically saying
1:12:25 when you mention terror groups that
1:12:27 islam only fits that before this there's
1:12:29 a there's a deep assumption here
1:12:31 why are most of the terrorist groups
1:12:33 islamic
1:12:41 only terrorist groups are should be
1:12:44 analyzed that's the assumption what
1:12:46 about terrorist states
1:12:48 you see this is very that's why it's
1:12:50 very important why should the unit of
1:12:52 analysis be what groups in the first
1:12:54 place
1:12:54 because you don't want to talk about
1:12:56 israel basically that's the reason why
1:12:58 you don't want to talk about israel
1:12:59 let's ask the question about terrorist
1:13:00 groups so exclude it from the
1:13:02 question well you don't even want to
1:13:04 talk about america
1:13:05 why'd you why does that why okay a
1:13:07 terrorist group so we so we're not going
1:13:09 to talk about lyrigby now
1:13:11 because that wasn't terrorist group that
1:13:12 was an individual
1:13:14 why why is the unit of analysis
1:13:17 they draw the boundaries for us and we
1:13:19 hook line and sinker we actually answer
1:13:21 the question
1:13:23 the real way to answer this question is
1:13:24 to
1:13:25 not accept the question in the first
1:13:26 place or the terms of the question you
1:13:28 always have to assess the assumptions of
1:13:29 the question and don't rush to ask
1:13:32 answer questions
1:13:34 think what could be the assumptions here
1:13:36 this is very important
1:13:39 very important and then the point that
1:13:41 you make is whatever point you want to
1:13:43 make about states terror states or
1:13:44 whatever and then the examples you want
1:13:46 to give you can give hiroshima nagasaki
1:13:49 dresden and hamburg dresden and hamburg
1:13:51 were situations where
1:13:53 the raf
1:13:55 the winston churchill
1:13:57 they went to germany and it was
1:13:59 campaigns that were targeting civilians
1:14:02 they were not targeting military men
1:14:04 they were targeting civilians hiroshima
1:14:06 and nagasaki were situations where
1:14:09 america
1:14:10 dropped bombs in an entire city and town
1:14:13 hiroshima nagasaki
1:14:15 they didn't care if there was children
1:14:16 there or not they knew that in fact they
1:14:18 were sure there were children there and
1:14:19 they said we're gonna kill the children
1:14:21 that's what they when they press that
1:14:23 button they decided to kill
1:14:25 thousands of children in a second now
1:14:28 that's not muslims doing that
1:14:30 but that's also terrorism for us that's
1:14:33 also targeting civilians for us that's
1:14:35 also something we don't agree with
1:14:37 but why is it that when we talk about
1:14:39 when we think about terrorism if i go to
1:14:41 a school
1:14:42 and i tell a child to draw a terrorist
1:14:44 he'll draw me and you
1:14:46 all right he won't draw you know
1:14:49 winston chu he won't bring out five
1:14:50 pound note and say this is the terrorist
1:14:52 that killed them done dressed in hamburg
1:14:54 the racist terrorist that i done uh he
1:14:57 also has racist remarks no one sees him
1:15:00 like that they've done some really good
1:15:01 propaganda these guys the racist
1:15:03 terrorists that drop bombs on babies
1:15:06 or harry truman harry truman nice suit
1:15:08 like me today because i was talking
1:15:10 about jihad so i have to come and talk
1:15:11 about the suit if i wear that if i if i
1:15:14 if i came in without the bob or whatever
1:15:17 uh sorry with the uh what did you call
1:15:19 it the
1:15:20 we call it
1:15:22 we call it the
1:15:27 yeah then
1:15:29 maybe the
1:15:30 image will be reinforced the point
1:15:32 therefore is that
1:15:35 the point is we always fall for their
1:15:37 assumptions and we don't look at the
1:15:39 facts the facts are so
1:15:41 against them
1:15:42 from the native americans from the
1:15:44 killing of killed children yeah people
1:15:46 like john rawls who is a he's a theorist
1:15:49 who's who's arguing for killing
1:15:51 civilians and stuff
1:15:52 you don't need to go to osama bin laden
1:15:54 you just have to go to harry truman and
1:15:56 john rules
1:15:57 you don't need to forget about osama bin
1:15:59 laden for now he had the same exact
1:16:01 thought process
1:16:02 when he was when he's talking about
1:16:04 whatever he's talking about and aiming
1:16:06 exactly the same allah
1:16:08 as uh winston churchill sorry to say i
1:16:11 don't care what you have to say about
1:16:12 that winston churchill yeah it's good
1:16:14 the same
1:16:15 same exact
1:16:17 you cannot you cannot escape this
1:16:18 reality but
1:16:20 let's go to the dresden and bomb the
1:16:22 kids
1:16:23 who said that
1:16:25 well i'm not saying he said that but
1:16:26 that's the idea you know he was that
1:16:27 lady that american was it i can't
1:16:29 remember on tv she actually said like
1:16:31 half a million was it
1:16:34 yeah that's a good point iraq and
1:16:35 afghanistan
1:16:38 because yeah and they asked was it worth
1:16:39 it was it it was worth it
1:16:42 can you can you imagine what's her name
1:16:43 madeleine albright she was secretary of
1:16:45 state okay she referred to them as
1:16:48 collateral damage there you have it and
1:16:49 it's on youtube today
1:16:52 was it worth it and she goes yeah it was
1:16:53 worth it tony blair is walking around
1:16:55 and enjoying himself
1:16:57 he just hasn't even apologized million
1:16:59 people lied he was part of that this
1:17:01 guy's a walking uh terrorist story to
1:17:03 say
1:17:04 what the hell would you what do you want
1:17:05 me to call him
1:17:07 anyway the point is is that we always
1:17:08 feel like we have to defend ourselves we
1:17:10 can we should but we have you only
1:17:12 defend yourself with an eye to it's like
1:17:14 a boxer
1:17:16 you only
1:17:18 uh you only parry
1:17:21 with an eye to counter punch
1:17:23 because if you parry and not count a
1:17:24 punch you're just waiting to get hurt
1:17:26 and that's not what we're doing here in
1:17:28 this country we're not waiting to get
1:17:29 her
1:17:30 and we should be on the counter
1:17:32 offensive and because we have the facts
1:17:34 with us and we have the truth with us
1:17:37 and i hope everyone here has benefited
1:17:39 from this as much as i have
1:17:41 we've shared a lot of information and
1:17:42 this is the first of many
1:17:44 sessions like this
1:17:47 is