Why does the Qur'an differ from the Bible? (2021-10-21) #

0:00:02 okay well perhaps we can move on to the
0:00:04 last uh segment of uh our discussion
0:00:07 which is this um obscurely entitled
0:00:10 intertextuality
0:00:12 um which doesn't reveal much of what's
0:00:14 going on what are these texts and what
0:00:17 is going on here why is it such an
0:00:19 important subject that obviously you uh
0:00:22 explored in your recent postgraduate
0:00:25 studies at the university of oxford
0:00:28 indeed so i was always interested in the
0:00:30 similarities and the differences between
0:00:32 stories in the quran and the parallels
0:00:35 in biblical tradition by biblical
0:00:37 tradition i mean not only the canonical
0:00:40 uh
0:00:41 biblical writings but post canonical
0:00:43 writings also so you know the writings
0:00:45 of the church fathers the talmud and
0:00:48 jewish traditions second temple writings
0:00:50 etc
0:00:51 um
0:00:52 and so you know uh uh how do we explain
0:00:55 the similarities and the differences and
0:00:57 over the past two decades at the very
0:00:59 least
0:01:00 a lot a lot more scholarly
0:01:04 material has come out uh which is uh
0:01:08 looking at the similarities and the
0:01:10 differences of you know various
0:01:12 chronic accounts uh
0:01:15 against the biblical backdrop and so um
0:01:18 i've been interested in this topic also
0:01:21 um
0:01:22 and and i've looked specifically at a
0:01:24 few accounts so this would be the story
0:01:26 of moses in the quran
0:01:28 the story of jesus in my pieces i
0:01:31 focused upon the story of zechariah
0:01:34 and
0:01:35 also one element of the story of moses
0:01:38 that would be moses's um
0:01:42 separation and his reunion with his
0:01:44 mother so when he is you know uh still a
0:01:47 baby
0:01:48 um and my personal conclusion on my
0:01:52 examination thus far is that it seems
0:01:54 that the quran
0:01:56 intentionally parts ways
0:01:58 with commonly known stories stories
0:02:01 which are to be found in the bible which
0:02:03 are to be found in biblical tradition
0:02:05 also and that the quran has its own
0:02:07 perspective
0:02:08 and it uh
0:02:10 really you know
0:02:11 doesn't care what someone else is saying
0:02:14 it is just putting forth its own view
0:02:17 and it wants people to accept that as
0:02:20 the correct view uh at the very least
0:02:23 the stories which i've examined uh that
0:02:26 would seem to be the case and yeah the
0:02:28 tradition used to be uh and you see you
0:02:30 still get some christian missionaries
0:02:32 who say this that the the crown is a
0:02:34 crude cut and paste job of of the bible
0:02:37 basically and it gets it gets it wrong
0:02:39 makes mistakes but there are differences
0:02:41 between the bible and the quran uh the
0:02:43 bible being the default position of
0:02:44 course which is true and right uh the
0:02:46 quran just makes mistakes when it
0:02:48 differs from the crown um so but you're
0:02:51 saying that that whole crude paradigm is
0:02:54 just gone and i know um
0:02:56 your supervisor at oxford nikolai sinai
0:02:59 has all in his most recent work called
0:03:01 uh the quran a historical critical
0:03:03 introduction also says that in the
0:03:05 introduction uh to that book um that
0:03:08 that paradigm is now gone in in western
0:03:10 scholars and now as you are explaining
0:03:13 of course that um the koran has its own
0:03:15 view and is polemically engaging with
0:03:18 the stories uh uh uh
0:03:21 the in the scriptures the people of the
0:03:23 book other stories and and telling them
0:03:26 and correcting them perhaps or giving
0:03:28 his own version of these stories
0:03:31 with an understanding of course what the
0:03:33 quran is saying is the true
0:03:34 understanding it's not just a different
0:03:36 view it's the view the truth about what
0:03:38 really happened uh in those stories but
0:03:41 the the quran is is asserting itself
0:03:43 over
0:03:44 these other stories uh and giving its
0:03:47 own giving the truth the capital t uh
0:03:50 yes indeed and so my intertextual
0:03:52 reading uh has has definitely you know
0:03:54 led me to that uh conclusion and uh as
0:03:58 far as the polemical view is concerned i
0:04:00 wouldn't say that it's completely gone
0:04:02 uh
0:04:03 but but it has received a very
0:04:05 significant dent and and and it has been
0:04:09 it is rather uh diminished so you will
0:04:11 come across obviously you know
0:04:13 purely polemical circles where you know
0:04:15 uh such views are still circulating
0:04:18 according to which you know the quran
0:04:19 simply you know is the product of
0:04:21 copying from the bible when it comes to
0:04:24 the
0:04:25 scholarship on the other hand so a
0:04:28 critical
0:04:30 academic scholarship of the quran
0:04:32 this view is seldom championed by by
0:04:35 scholars there might be you know a few
0:04:37 individuals here
0:04:38 here and there
0:04:41 who may say you know something along
0:04:42 these lines um but really it's it's not
0:04:45 at all a mainstream or a common view and
0:04:47 the reason is not because you know uh
0:04:49 scholars suddenly developed this need to
0:04:51 be
0:04:52 uh nice to muslim and to respect the
0:04:54 quran it's just that you know
0:04:56 um
0:04:58 as many scholars began
0:05:00 examining the parallels in more detail
0:05:03 they realized that you know some of
0:05:05 these
0:05:06 in fact a lot of these polemical
0:05:08 paradigms they are really very difficult
0:05:10 to sustain and i can give you like um
0:05:13 one example
0:05:14 of this so
0:05:16 in the quran there is the story of the
0:05:18 enunciation uh to zechariah zechariah is
0:05:22 praying for an offspring
0:05:24 and
0:05:26 god accepts his prayer
0:05:28 and then zechariah asks for a sign
0:05:31 and
0:05:32 a sign is given to him that he will not
0:05:35 speak for three days and three nights
0:05:37 and
0:05:38 you know it's a very happy occasion and
0:05:40 uh it's a very positive account uh if
0:05:43 you look at the parallel in the gospel
0:05:45 of luke
0:05:47 zechariah is informed about the son he
0:05:50 is given details about uh
0:05:52 this sun to be
0:05:54 and then zechariah like the quran
0:05:57 requests a sign
0:06:00 the angel becomes angry and says i am
0:06:03 gabriel i just gave you this news and
0:06:05 you know you you are still asking for a
0:06:07 sign and i'm just very loosely
0:06:09 paraphrasing and uh then the angel says
0:06:12 that you know for your uh disbelief you
0:06:14 will not be able to speak
0:06:17 and and he is basically his punishment
0:06:19 is that he is struck mute
0:06:22 so it's a very very different story uh
0:06:25 i mean you can see the sharp contrast
0:06:27 with the quranic account in in the quran
0:06:30 zechariah asked for a sign he is gladly
0:06:32 given the sign and
0:06:34 but uh the signed the punishment
0:06:37 in the of luke and if you look at the
0:06:40 subsequent uh church fathers in my
0:06:43 pieces i had a look at maybe
0:06:46 around um
0:06:48 close to a dozen i think fathers uh this
0:06:50 includes uh uh uh you know the uh syriac
0:06:53 uh church father saint ifram and various
0:06:57 others uh origin
0:06:59 um
0:07:00 yeah
0:07:01 and so i mean they consistently carry
0:07:03 forward the story of the gospel of lute
0:07:06 and they simply add some complementary
0:07:08 details to it they expanded in a
0:07:11 complimentary fashion
0:07:12 and uh in some of these fathers and
0:07:14 saint ephraim for example
0:07:16 uh origin and a few others um
0:07:19 the punishment of muteness that is uh
0:07:24 uh
0:07:25 that is you know basically uh inflicted
0:07:27 upon zechariah is taken as a
0:07:30 as a symbolic
0:07:32 separation between christianity and
0:07:34 judaism
0:07:36 so uh it is almost as if you know that
0:07:40 the punishment of zechariah
0:07:42 is a symbol of
0:07:44 the replacement of the jewish temple or
0:07:47 the jewish system of worship
0:07:50 by something new i.e jesus
0:07:53 uh
0:07:54 and the new you know system ushered in
0:07:56 by uh jesus
0:07:59 now when you look at the quran against
0:08:02 all of these various parallels not only
0:08:05 do you notice a sharp contrast
0:08:08 between the
0:08:10 the main story that you know
0:08:13 punishment of zechariah there is no
0:08:15 punishment in the quran in fact it's a
0:08:17 blessing it's a sign it's a positive
0:08:19 thing
0:08:20 uh that is granted to zechariah
0:08:22 but also in the quran
0:08:24 um
0:08:25 uh uh zechariah's son
0:08:28 yahya or john the baptist is introduced
0:08:31 as the heir of the house of jacob
0:08:35 so the continuation of their inherited
0:08:39 religious tradition
0:08:41 is is
0:08:43 very clearly implied in the account uh
0:08:46 zechariah and
0:08:48 um
0:08:48 Music
0:08:49 john the baptist are
0:08:52 legitimate heirs of the house of jacob
0:08:54 and of their inherited religious
0:08:56 tradition jesus does not replace that uh
0:08:59 jesus does not end that so continuation
0:09:03 versus a discontinuity that you come
0:09:05 across in the writings of the various uh
0:09:07 church fathers
0:09:09 and you have a word
0:09:11 for me is that you get the sense uh very
0:09:12 much from contemporary historians of the
0:09:15 new testament and christianity and
0:09:17 historical jesus
0:09:19 uh the consensus appears to be that
0:09:21 jesus didn't come to establish a new
0:09:24 religion called christianity
0:09:26 um that he was a jew preaching judaism
0:09:29 to jews yes he had his own particular
0:09:31 take on torah observance and perhaps an
0:09:33 intensification
0:09:35 of observance and terrorization that's a
0:09:37 great emphasis on love mercy and faith
0:09:39 and so on but certainly not establishing
0:09:42 this new religion called christianity
0:09:43 which pretty quickly came on the scene
0:09:45 towards the end of the first century
0:09:47 it's for sure with people like
0:09:48 connections of antioch who actually
0:09:50 explicitly referred to uh that um so it
0:09:53 seems that the quran is uh in agreement
0:09:55 with that view in as much as jesus is
0:09:58 seen and john the baptist of course is
0:10:00 yes and seen as people who were very
0:10:02 much within the second temple judaism
0:10:04 and operating and teaching uh
0:10:06 accordingly um as opposed to the idea of
0:10:09 a new religion being born which is
0:10:12 arguably understood by the early fathers
0:10:14 under exegesis or
0:10:16 luke chapter one so that that's
0:10:17 interesting
0:10:18 um multi-faceted way looking at it yeah
0:10:21 absolutely and uh you come across you
0:10:23 know uh other points of contrast and
0:10:26 differences uh in this quranic account
0:10:28 of zechariah uh which is mentioned in
0:10:31 q19 and q3 surah al-imran and uh surah
0:10:35 maryam and you know
0:10:37 these various biblical traditions but
0:10:39 you come across the same thing in uh
0:10:42 different stories different prophetic
0:10:44 stories that you examine i mean just
0:10:45 looking at the story of moses there is
0:10:48 one interesting example that i was
0:10:49 actually not familiar with up until my
0:10:51 studies at oxford uh so you'll notice
0:10:54 that you know the sign given to
0:10:56 the miracle given to moses one is that
0:10:58 you know his staff transforms into a
0:11:00 serpent and the other one is that his
0:11:03 hand becomes
0:11:04 leprous uh
0:11:07 the hebrew term in exodus i'm forgetting
0:11:10 what term it is but you look at the
0:11:12 meaning and it has a negative
0:11:14 connotation that his hand becomes you
0:11:16 know like uh diseased or uh infected uh
0:11:20 when he pulls it out
0:11:22 and when he uh puts it you know in his
0:11:25 bosom and takes it out again it becomes
0:11:27 normal
0:11:28 so you know that's a miracle which is uh
0:11:31 given to moses interestingly enough when
0:11:34 the quran mentions uh this particular
0:11:36 miracle
0:11:37 the hand miracle
0:11:39 the quran refers to it five times and on
0:11:42 three occasions the quran says that
0:11:46 his hand was
0:11:48 white without a disease without defect
0:11:53 so you see you know again the contrast
0:11:55 you know with that uh detail in the
0:11:58 bible because that word if you look in
0:11:59 it if you look at the concordances and
0:12:02 the dictionaries
0:12:03 uh it's a negative word i mean the
0:12:05 translation uh oftentimes is diseased
0:12:08 the difference but why
0:12:10 why is the quran making that point what
0:12:13 yeah so
0:12:14 it's not a random point oh it instantly
0:12:16 you just have a diseased hand what why
0:12:19 is it saying this
0:12:21 yeah so so again the question is why as
0:12:23 you said the quran says this now if you
0:12:25 look at the
0:12:26 uh post canonical you know uh jewish
0:12:29 writings uh
0:12:31 you
0:12:32 uh you may be able to glean maybe you
0:12:34 know some uh difficulty with this nature
0:12:37 of the miracle so uh the
0:12:40 uh in exodus 4 6 in the uh septuagint
0:12:44 for example it simply states
0:12:46 uh his hand
0:12:47 became as snow
0:12:49 and
0:12:50 josephus mentions for example
0:12:52 his hand became white off a color
0:12:55 resembling chalk
0:12:57 now they they're not disagreeing with
0:12:59 what is there
0:13:00 in the canonical uh uh exodus
0:13:03 uh they're simply emphasizing the
0:13:05 whiteness of the hand uh and they're
0:13:08 just leaving out the bit about the
0:13:09 disease we may guess that okay they were
0:13:12 uncomfortable with that although you can
0:13:14 give it a positive spin also that you
0:13:16 know his hand became very leprous very
0:13:19 diseased and you know uh dance in an
0:13:22 instant it is healed and you know that
0:13:24 is a miracle uh and it shows that uh i
0:13:27 was reading somewhere that you know that
0:13:29 uh the control of god over uh moses and
0:13:33 that you know
0:13:34 um
0:13:35 some people are trying to show the
0:13:36 superiority of jesus
0:13:38 uh compared to moses uh uh i'm just
0:13:42 vaguely recalling uh some things which
0:13:44 are which i read quite some time ago
0:13:47 but nonetheless uh in these jewish
0:13:49 writers you can see that you know there
0:13:51 is simply an emphasis in some of them
0:13:53 upon the whiteness of the hand and the
0:13:55 hand becoming resembling choke as
0:13:57 josephus but the quran goes out of its
0:13:59 way to mention in three places it was
0:14:01 without defect without disease what is
0:14:03 the reason for that
0:14:05 maybe the quran just disagrees with that
0:14:07 and thinks that you know uh
0:14:09 it was white it was
0:14:11 not diseased not defected and that is
0:14:13 wrong
0:14:14 because it is wrong uh i can't think of
0:14:17 any other reason at this stage as to why
0:14:19 that is the case but there is something
0:14:21 else also again in the story of uh moses
0:14:24 uh in exodus we read about the famous
0:14:27 duel which moses has with the magicians
0:14:30 um
0:14:32 and you know the magicians are able to
0:14:34 replicate a
0:14:35 miracle of uh moses but moses prevails
0:14:38 his serpent uh i think a gobbles up or
0:14:41 swallows the
0:14:42 other snakes now the same story is
0:14:45 mentioned uh in the quran
0:14:47 now there is a
0:14:49 the quran disagrees with exodus in the
0:14:51 order
0:14:52 of
0:14:53 in the sequence of what happened so
0:14:55 according to that if i remember
0:14:57 correctly it is moses who first
0:15:00 throws his staff and it converts into a
0:15:02 snake and then the magicians are able to
0:15:05 replicate that
0:15:07 in the quran
0:15:10 moses invites the uh magicians
0:15:13 to cost their
0:15:15 stuff or you know whatever they had
0:15:17 first so they did it first
0:15:20 and something happens
0:15:22 the quran calls it trickery or you know
0:15:24 somehow they fooled the people but it
0:15:26 seemed real
0:15:27 and the quran mentions that moses became
0:15:30 afraid
0:15:31 that within himself you know like he was
0:15:34 concerned that he was not expecting this
0:15:35 at all
0:15:36 and at that very moment
0:15:39 god tells moses don't be afraid you will
0:15:42 prevail cast your stuff
0:15:45 moses does that and immediately what
0:15:47 happens
0:15:48 when the magicians see the miracle
0:15:51 they just fall in prostration they know
0:15:53 that this is the real thing this is not
0:15:56 you know akin to what they did
0:15:59 look at the contrast with the biblical
0:16:01 story
0:16:01 after the deal with the magicians the
0:16:04 magicians are able to then they don't
0:16:07 give up they continue to be on the side
0:16:09 of the pharaoh and they are able to
0:16:11 replicate i think two or three miracles
0:16:13 of moses uh uh the miracle i think of
0:16:17 the frogs or maybe the uh turning uh uh
0:16:21 water into blood i can't remember
0:16:23 correctly uh uh precisely at the moment
0:16:25 but they are able to replicate it
0:16:26 according to exodus some of the miracles
0:16:29 of of moses even though what they're
0:16:31 doing is not miracles it's trickery
0:16:33 trickery but they are able to you know
0:16:36 match moses at least to some extent not
0:16:38 so in the quran immediately game over
0:16:41 the magicians
0:16:42 it has such a huge impact upon them they
0:16:45 are on their knees
0:16:47 they
0:16:48 immediately you know ask god forgiveness
0:16:50 and when the pharaoh screams at them
0:16:53 that you know i'll punish you i'll
0:16:54 crucify you what not they say we don't
0:16:56 care to what you like that is the impact
0:16:58 moses miracle has upon them
0:17:01 now if you look at the um
0:17:04 subsequent jewish
0:17:06 commentaries on
0:17:09 on you know this episode in exodus
0:17:11 Music
0:17:12 you can see that some authors are
0:17:14 troubled by the fact that the magicians
0:17:16 are able to replicate a few of the
0:17:18 miracles of moses
0:17:20 and uh different explanations are used
0:17:23 to justify this so you know uh i won't
0:17:25 go into the explanations in detail i
0:17:27 have them written down somewhere but
0:17:28 i'll get lost if i start reading
0:17:31 but anyway they give various
0:17:33 explanations and you know some people
0:17:34 say that well even though they are able
0:17:36 to replicate what uh moses did but you
0:17:39 know moses the serpent it was more
0:17:41 ferocious and it was able to you know
0:17:43 swallow up
0:17:44 uh they're snakes but notice again how
0:17:46 the quran
0:17:48 parts ways
0:17:50 with the biblical story in a more
0:17:52 drastic way
0:17:54 according to the quran no
0:17:56 they were defeated
0:17:58 in that very instance
0:18:00 and that was end of story for them
0:18:02 and you come across these bits and
0:18:04 pieces and so many other places in the
0:18:06 story of jesus i've already mentioned
0:18:08 the story of zechariah you look at the
0:18:10 story of joseph and you know compare
0:18:12 that with the parables in in the bible
0:18:14 that again and again at least you know
0:18:17 i've come across these
0:18:18 uh
0:18:20 these instances which leads me to
0:18:21 conclude that you know it's not correct
0:18:23 to say that the quran just
0:18:25 endorses the bible i think the quran has
0:18:28 an adversarial attitude towards biblical
0:18:31 traditions both canonical and
0:18:33 non-canonical there are times when it
0:18:35 agrees with what is there in the bible
0:18:37 and in biblical tradition and it's time
0:18:40 to disagree with them rather drastically
0:18:41 yeah i mean this is extraordinarily what
0:18:43 you're saying you've given detailed
0:18:44 evidence that still many uh christian
0:18:46 apologists polemicists particularly
0:18:48 insist that the quran endorses uh the
0:18:51 bible when it patently obviously doesn't
0:18:54 uh in when you really look at the detail
0:18:57 and comparatively the intertextual
0:18:59 analysis you you see a as you say an
0:19:01 adversary or polemical attitude a
0:19:03 correction a change um but my own
0:19:06 personal uh favorite is uh
0:19:16 my own favorite translation is muhammad
0:19:18 assad's a great jewish uh convert to
0:19:21 islam in the 20th century
0:19:22 his uh
0:19:23 commentary on the translation of the
0:19:25 quran and uh he his uh it's very very
0:19:28 brief this surah in his translation it
0:19:30 says
0:19:31 say he is the one god
0:19:34 god the eternal the uncaused cause of
0:19:37 all being he begets not and neither is
0:19:40 he begotten and there is nothing that
0:19:43 could be compared with him so in four
0:19:46 short
0:19:47 for sure ayah we have
0:19:50 what you you have termed precision
0:19:52 theology but both in terms of confirming
0:19:55 the shema in the first verse uh which is
0:19:57 you know here is where the lord our god
0:19:59 is one lord universalizing it dropping
0:20:01 as you put it uh the reference to israel
0:20:05 and and then also
0:20:07 in the third verse uh he begets not
0:20:09 neither has begotten it's got to be a
0:20:11 specific reference there to the council
0:20:12 of nicaea the idea of begotten of the
0:20:15 father um
0:20:17 so you have on the one hand the quran
0:20:19 affirming the shema which is in
0:20:21 deuteronomy of course uh the creed of
0:20:24 israel still resides today by pious jews
0:20:26 of course also reaffirmed by jesus in
0:20:29 the christian gospels in the gospel of
0:20:31 mark
0:20:32 and the quran takes the side of jesus
0:20:34 and moses will put it that way over
0:20:36 against
0:20:38 later christian tradition which would
0:20:40 have jesus as uh begotten of god
0:20:44 um and uh so for me because very not
0:20:47 just precision theology is incredibly
0:20:49 rich theology um which centers the quran
0:20:53 the chronicles perspective very much in
0:20:55 the jewish
0:20:57 mosaic tradition which jesus identifies
0:21:00 with uh according to mark
0:21:03 over against another religion uh which
0:21:05 was not established by jesus as scholars
0:21:07 now know in the west he didn't come to
0:21:08 establish christianity this later
0:21:10 catholic tradition uh of the creeds and
0:21:13 the councils of the church which are
0:21:15 accepted by all mainstream catholics and
0:21:17 africans and the orthodox and methodists
0:21:19 and so on we all accept these greeds as
0:21:21 authoritative at least the nicin creed
0:21:23 anyway
0:21:24 um
0:21:25 that is a discontinuous from the mosaic
0:21:29 jesus quranic tradition
0:21:33 so for me this is incredibly rich surah
0:21:35 which speaks volumes on many levels uh
0:21:38 um about this and i know you've written
0:21:40 in your pieces
0:21:42 yeah i just wanted to highlight that no
0:21:45 absolutely and i have just one con
0:21:46 confession to make the term which i used
0:21:48 precis uh precision strike
0:21:50 i borrowed that from a scholar i can't
0:21:52 remember her name but she was giving a
0:21:53 presentation and it stuck in my mind so
0:21:56 uh if i remember her name later on i'll
0:21:58 i'll definitely mention it to you
0:22:02 and before another contract i credited
0:22:04 it to you and i will continue
0:22:07 because that's what i read it in your
0:22:09 thesis at oxford so yeah
0:22:11 yeah
0:22:12 that for me is you know a really weighty
0:22:15 matter i mean the detail of moses hand
0:22:16 coming out white disease yeah that
0:22:19 that's there and tells us
0:22:21 but this syrup is is the bombshell of
0:22:23 all bombshells i mean it really oh
0:22:25 absolutely yeah amazing uh i have a like
0:22:28 a you know a comparison with the nicean
0:22:30 creed which you might be able to as well
0:22:32 you won't be able to see so yeah like
0:22:34 you mentioned
0:22:36 say he is god one now the word uh ahadi
0:22:39 here
0:22:40 is a habits uh legomenum so it occurs
0:22:44 only once in the entire quranic corpus
0:22:46 only here uh otherwise the word for one
0:22:49 is why which the quran uses but ahad is
0:22:52 used here and then if you compare that
0:22:54 you know with the shema here where
0:22:55 israel the lord our god is one the word
0:22:58 is ah
0:23:00 so so so you know you can immediately
0:23:03 you know when you are
0:23:04 reading
0:23:06 uh if you know hebrew ahad will remind
0:23:09 you of the shema um here where israel
0:23:12 our lord our god is one uh
0:23:14 and also uh notice that the biblical
0:23:17 statement uh here oh
0:23:20 here o israel can be looked upon as a
0:23:23 passive whereas the quran says
0:23:26 an imperative uh say he is god the one
0:23:30 uh so uh you can see that the shema is
0:23:33 actually intensified
0:23:34 here it's no longer about hearing it's
0:23:37 about declaring it's about saying
0:23:40 uh it's about asserting uh and then
0:23:42 allah
0:23:44 which can be translated as you know god
0:23:46 the internal
0:23:48 now you compare this with the nicean
0:23:50 creed uh the father almighty maker of
0:23:52 heaven and earth and of all things
0:23:55 visible and invisible okay so we can say
0:23:58 that you know this would match with god
0:24:00 the eternal but the next crucial bit who
0:24:03 has not become nor has
0:24:06 has been begotten
0:24:08 now this stands in contrast specifically
0:24:10 you know very very strongly with the
0:24:12 nicene creed where we read and in one
0:24:15 lord jesus christ the only begotten son
0:24:17 of god begotten of the father before all
0:24:20 worlds or eons
0:24:22 light of light very god of very god
0:24:24 begotten not made
0:24:27 so there is a very pres precise
0:24:30 reputation of this in a few words in the
0:24:33 quran
0:24:34 and there is no equal to him
0:24:37 uh
0:24:38 and the relevant bits in the nicey and
0:24:40 creed being of one substance with the
0:24:42 father so the quran is you know uh
0:24:49 who has not been begotten nor has been
0:24:52 begotten there is no equal to him how
0:24:55 precisely the quran
0:24:56 like you know refutes the
0:24:58 notions to be found in the nicean creed
0:25:01 and like you said at the same time
0:25:03 affirming or intensifying the shaman
0:25:06 and this is this is bad news though
0:25:07 surely for some people who
0:25:10 um in a misguided sense perhaps of
0:25:12 interfaith let's get along together
0:25:15 all religions lead equally to god
0:25:18 we all have our own partial view of the
0:25:20 truth crowley here is asserting
0:25:22 absolutely uh the categorical
0:25:25 absoluteness of god uh that he's not
0:25:28 forgotten but made
0:25:29 and the nun can be compared to him so it
0:25:32 really is it's laying down the line here
0:25:34 and saying no
0:25:35 this is the truth uh and this is the
0:25:37 truth that moses taught that jesus
0:25:39 affirmed as well over against other
0:25:41 formulations which do have uh god
0:25:44 begetting or making other beings
0:25:46 um you know in that fashion
0:25:49 ultimately is not going to be joining
0:25:51 hands singing kumbaya
0:25:54 in a kind of um you know a way that's
0:25:56 very fashionable in many religious
0:25:57 circles in the west he descends to this
0:25:59 absolute truth in a very uncompromising
0:26:02 way as you say in the first surah cool
0:26:04 as you fascinatingly said it's an
0:26:06 imperative to say not to
0:26:09 proclaim
0:26:11 that he is the one god the shema
0:26:14 so it's uncompromising so i'm trying to
0:26:15 say uh and it just that is just the
0:26:18 nature of truth metaphysical truth
0:26:21 uh is absolute um for the crime and um
0:26:24 it can't be negotiated with it it's
0:26:27 asserting itself without any compromise
0:26:30 yeah i tend to agree with that i mean i
0:26:32 am all in support of you know
0:26:34 interreligious uh
0:26:36 dialogues uh but there is no doubt that
0:26:38 the quran has its uh true claims
0:26:41 and
0:26:42 it has taken very precise positions on
0:26:44 particular issues and you know one has
0:26:46 to deal with that
0:26:48 um yeah
0:26:50 yeah i mean i i don't mean to yes
0:26:52 do you think yeah dialogue is very good
0:26:54 but this kind of facile sense of there
0:26:56 are there are certain groups uh i'm
0:26:58 aware i won't mention by name you do
0:26:59 have this kind of
0:27:00 uh you know uh where you kind of
0:27:02 overlook these issues and we'll pretend
0:27:04 basically we'll all uh believe the same
0:27:06 thing and that the quran is clear that
0:27:08 it it stakes the truth very clearly
0:27:11 um
0:27:12 okay well uh we we've uh we've been on
0:27:15 air for uh just over one and a half
0:27:16 hours yeah
0:27:18 and and i'm also very conscious that
0:27:20 you've hardly scratched the surface and
0:27:23 there's so much more you could have said
0:27:24 and can be said about any
0:27:27 objects uh the historical jesus the
0:27:29 historical muhammad and intertextuality
0:27:32 is a new bit of jargon there we're going
0:27:33 to have to learn i suppose um if we're
0:27:35 going to appear knowledgeable about
0:27:36 these things um
0:27:38 so um
0:27:40 just to conclude then uh if you have
0:27:42 something you want to share with us and
0:27:43 and and then we'll we'll perhaps call it
0:27:45 today
0:27:46 no no for the thoughts uh i can just
0:27:49 thank you for having me here again and i
0:27:51 look forward to our next discussion
0:27:53 thank you wow
0:27:56 there's a promise there for further
0:27:57 installments
0:27:58 excellent i think what we're going to
0:28:00 have to do is chop up this video i don't
0:28:01 mean you know this video will go out
0:28:03 unedited uh but i will think actually i
0:28:06 will create three separate videos uh
0:28:09 because there are three subjects that
0:28:10 can be more easily digested in
0:28:12 bite-sized uh proportion kind of thing
0:28:15 uh but what we'll have four videos from
0:28:18 this
0:28:19 and and people on here from tiktok tend
0:28:20 to grab extracts as well which is great
0:28:23 um because it's uh you know just they
0:28:25 spread the knowledge spread the truth
0:28:27 yeah anyway usman shake thank you uh
0:28:30 very much thank you
0:28:31 and i look forward to you're going on
0:28:33 presumably to do your phd uh hopefully
0:28:35 oxford
0:28:36 uh hopefully fingers crossed i need to
0:28:38 send out my application and look into a
0:28:40 few things but uh
0:28:42 after getting my results i'm very
0:28:45 motivated to proceed with it
0:28:47 absolutely and i look forward to uh
0:28:49 perhaps seeing you again on blogging
0:28:50 theology to share thank you with the
0:28:52 viewers so thank you very much until
0:28:54 you're more thankful
0:28:55 thank you absolutely see you bye