Londoniyyah - Part 35 (Final) - Nationalism | Mohammed Hijab (2022-04-30) ​

0:00:14 this is another session of a londoner
0:00:16 and in fact it is the last session after
0:00:18 eight months of recording two sessions a
0:00:20 week
0:00:21 many hours each session we have finally
0:00:24 concluded this uh
0:00:25 series and i think before we start the
0:00:28 session and before i tell
0:00:30 dakar to read
0:00:33 what he's going to read from the poem i
0:00:35 think i should mention something about
0:00:37 how this all started you know and why
0:00:39 this started
0:00:40 and i think the barakah that could have
0:00:42 come about because of the reason of how
0:00:44 it started you know some some months ago
0:00:46 maybe
0:00:47 nine months ago or something like that i
0:00:49 was in a hospital i'm not sure if i even
0:00:51 told you the story
0:00:52 but now i know might be the first time i
0:00:54 tell you this story
0:00:55 and um i had blood clots i had something
0:00:58 called pulmonary embolism in the
0:01:01 lungs many of them
0:01:03 and as i was
0:01:04 in the on the hospital bed
0:01:07 the doctor told me
0:01:08 you might go to sleep and not wake up
0:01:11 and he said you know the mortality rate
0:01:13 is about 50
0:01:14 for what you have
0:01:16 and there's something that we can't do
0:01:17 anything about because you they put you
0:01:18 on blood thinners immediately but they
0:01:20 said we have to we have a duty to tell
0:01:21 you this and
0:01:22 so obviously i started to to think about
0:01:24 it i thought
0:01:27 obviously i have to leave will behind
0:01:29 and all that kind of stuff even though i
0:01:30 don't have much
0:01:31 uh things to contribute
0:01:33 but i left something behind
0:01:35 sorted out my will and i encourage
0:01:37 everyone to do the same thing here if
0:01:38 you haven't already done that you have
0:01:39 to have an islamic will you know i
0:01:41 encourage everyone to do that
0:01:43 so
0:01:44 i did that i had i sorted out the will
0:01:47 and i said to myself well what do i what
0:01:49 have i left behind
0:01:52 and the hadith of the prophet muhammad
0:01:53 sallam where he said
0:01:55 adam and eve
0:01:57 that all of adam bernie adams
0:02:01 is
0:02:02 ceased except for three things and the
0:02:04 prophet saw he said
0:02:08 a child that you leave behind that he
0:02:10 supplicates for you
0:02:13 which is continuous
0:02:16 which is a beneficial knowledge that you
0:02:19 know that you leave behind now i
0:02:21 couldn't have i was it was
0:02:23 not practical for that time for me to
0:02:25 have any more children
0:02:26 i said
0:02:27 that was something i was not planning to
0:02:30 do
0:02:30 and in terms of solace
0:02:32 you know you can only leave so much
0:02:34 behind that's depending on your wealth
0:02:35 at that time you know i couldn't really
0:02:37 do that much
0:02:38 but the the thing that i thought about
0:02:40 was
0:02:42 that a beneficial knowledge that you
0:02:44 leave behind and i thought to myself
0:02:45 probably the best thing i could leave
0:02:46 behind is not just debates online it's
0:02:50 not just you know these informal things
0:02:52 i go to speaker's corner or whatever it
0:02:54 may be podcasts or whatever i thought
0:02:56 the best thing is what have i learned in
0:02:59 all the years that i've been not just in
0:03:00 the dao but preparing for it
0:03:03 what have i learned what have i been
0:03:04 able to get from different people
0:03:06 different specialists
0:03:08 that i have had the pleasure and honor
0:03:10 i've been working being able to work
0:03:11 with people like sabor ahmad who's uh
0:03:13 he's here today actually he's a
0:03:14 specialist in
0:03:15 in by philosophy of biology do his phd
0:03:17 in it people like hamza sources who's
0:03:19 also a specialist in philosophy
0:03:21 and others you know
0:03:23 in terms of uh
0:03:25 in terms of
0:03:26 the
0:03:27 islamic studies side in the shora
0:03:31 other brothers that maybe don't want to
0:03:32 be mentioned in the camera
0:03:34 that are also here today so i thought to
0:03:35 myself i put it all together
0:03:38 and
0:03:39 let's make something out of here
0:03:42 and uh the story was this is that in the
0:03:44 beginning i thought
0:03:46 this this was the plan this was the idea
0:03:48 abraham was there he remembers this
0:03:51 quite vividly i'm sure as well
0:03:53 the the the plan was to
0:03:55 in in islamic history you've always had
0:03:57 these kind of like
0:03:58 poems for
0:04:00 different funun for different sciences
0:04:03 uh like el sha
0:04:07 you know and it's usually named after
0:04:09 the city that the person is in sometimes
0:04:10 it can be yeah sometimes it's the name
0:04:12 of the person or a fan
0:04:14 but even telling me i had this idea of
0:04:16 when he went to a city the the poem
0:04:18 would be named after that city like hama
0:04:20 is
0:04:22 these are actual names of seas so i
0:04:24 decided to call it london
0:04:26 london here okay we're in london so
0:04:28 there's issues that affect us in london
0:04:30 because these are the new aquila issues
0:04:32 that affect us in london
0:04:34 obviously then at that time it was
0:04:35 martezilism versus this for us it's
0:04:37 feminism for us it's liberalism for us
0:04:39 it's materialism it's atheism
0:04:41 these are the big picture things that we
0:04:43 need to focus on
0:04:44 so i started constructing a poem in
0:04:46 arabic language
0:04:48 and obviously like you know i'm not
0:04:49 really the specialist in the i'm not
0:04:51 super way i'm normal you know
0:04:54 these these big poets
0:04:56 and there's rules in arabic language to
0:04:58 make poems it's not just you can just
0:05:00 make a new poem you have to it's like 16
0:05:02 uh bihar or behold different or else
0:05:05 then and this is very difficult so i did
0:05:07 it anyway
0:05:08 and i to abraham and i said send it to
0:05:10 you because you had some you know
0:05:12 he had some scholars and teachers that
0:05:14 were very good at poetry so he wouldn't
0:05:16 send it to some people they said no this
0:05:18 is not this is not
0:05:19 it does not fulfill the criterion
0:05:21 so i said what do we do because you know
0:05:23 this was actually when i was on the
0:05:25 death bed i said this is not going to
0:05:26 realize my dream here
0:05:29 so
0:05:30 dami
0:05:31 who is a specialist in poetry and who
0:05:33 actually wrote the london ear he he came
0:05:36 forward then he
0:05:37 he kind of took out all the kind of
0:05:39 information that we had we had
0:05:40 conversations with him
0:05:42 in the party and quickly just understood
0:05:44 everything and put it into poetry format
0:05:46 it was almost a miracle the quickness by
0:05:49 which he was able to make that
0:05:50 transformation and able to to do it i
0:05:52 was very surprised and very impressed
0:05:54 and that's how londoner came about
0:05:57 so it came about i think it came about
0:05:59 in a time where i was actually sincere
0:06:01 there's only a few times where i can
0:06:02 tell you in my life that i've been
0:06:03 sincere
0:06:05 that i can actually tell you this
0:06:07 no no you know but when you're on your
0:06:09 deathbed that's one of the most sincere
0:06:10 places
0:06:11 that you can be because you think it's
0:06:13 yourself you know
0:06:14 you're gonna die you've got to lose
0:06:16 something for the people you have to
0:06:17 it's for your own uh grave for your own
0:06:19 self and so what happened after that was
0:06:22 what happened after that was you know it
0:06:24 became a londoner
0:06:25 and it was even ratified and uh ver
0:06:28 given takrth and taskian
0:06:31 from big big people like
0:06:35 and other people from the like the
0:06:36 rabbit islamiyah
0:06:38 people all different kinds of i was
0:06:39 interested because people from all
0:06:40 different kind of critical backgrounds
0:06:41 were accepting this poem
0:06:44 and it's been a long time since ushai's
0:06:46 accept something and athletes accept
0:06:47 something all of them accepted this
0:06:49 you know except for not all of them but
0:06:52 there were people from each group that
0:06:53 accepted this thing
0:06:55 so there's a lot of kabul there was a
0:06:57 lot of acceptance of this particular
0:06:59 poem
0:07:00 and then i said to myself well the time
0:07:02 is limited i need to
0:07:04 i need to go through
0:07:05 an explanation of it so i put the
0:07:07 proposal to hamza resources
0:07:10 and you know and then it became official
0:07:12 and we said it has to be an invite-only
0:07:14 class
0:07:15 because we can't just have anyone here
0:07:17 you know
0:07:18 we brought the people that we thought
0:07:20 would
0:07:22 would have the most effect in the future
0:07:24 based on what they sent us and stuff
0:07:26 like that
0:07:27 and
0:07:28 eight months later i have to say you
0:07:30 know
0:07:32 i am
0:07:33 very impressed i'm surprised at the
0:07:35 extent to which people can transform
0:07:39 you know people coming in quite timid in
0:07:41 the beginning you know quiet mannered
0:07:43 well you know that's good you know but
0:07:45 then now you're going into discussion
0:07:47 with the brother
0:07:48 this one especially in the back here is
0:07:50 trying to hide this guy who lives in a
0:07:51 village all his life
0:07:52 you know this guy
0:07:54 for example he's a great example of that
0:07:55 he had the intelligence sorry um
0:08:00 as well but you might it's a great
0:08:02 example of that you know and you came in
0:08:04 you were a little bit you know
0:08:05 with your wording and stuff like that
0:08:06 and then afterwards i see him on one of
0:08:09 them he's going against you he's trying
0:08:10 to cut you up and interject and you
0:08:13 remember that one you remember that
0:08:14 don't you
0:08:15 we'll never forget that one how about
0:08:17 the time when
0:08:18 was uh
0:08:19 was was attacking us
0:08:21 and and playing devil's advocate and
0:08:23 stuff like that we wouldn't expect that
0:08:24 from the first session the
0:08:25 transformation has been uh amazing how
0:08:28 do you agree
0:08:29 you know and um
0:08:31 and this is exactly the dream
0:08:34 you know and now there's something that
0:08:35 we can say substantive that we leave
0:08:36 behind and we're the first batch of
0:08:37 people to do it together
0:08:39 i don't see myself here as being some
0:08:41 kind of a teacher i'm just a facilitator
0:08:42 here
0:08:43 and in fact everyone has been teaching
0:08:45 each other people don't realize that for
0:08:47 the most part these little lectures that
0:08:49 we put forward is the tip of the iceberg
0:08:52 of the interactions that we have in this
0:08:53 class and then after that we have more
0:08:55 more interactions and stuff like that
0:08:56 and it's been
0:08:57 amazing interactions where we've learned
0:08:59 from each other
0:09:00 uh
0:09:01 one thing i'll tell you never to learn
0:09:02 from me is manners
0:09:05 this is the wrong person you know that's
0:09:06 why i never put myself in these kinds of
0:09:08 positions
0:09:09 i've got a long way to go you know and
0:09:11 everyone knows that here so just just
0:09:14 look to target for that please
0:09:16 because i'll be honest with you
0:09:18 uh since we're in this in the process of
0:09:20 talking about uh
0:09:22 things
0:09:23 you know i've learned the most from from
0:09:25 this this man has been unbelievably
0:09:27 generous unbelievably honorable
0:09:30 the most punctual the most uh
0:09:32 you know i've learned more more from him
0:09:34 than he's learned from me i promise you
0:09:35 that and i think all of us can
0:09:38 can attest to this reality you know
0:09:40 and so
0:09:41 this is
0:09:42 has been something
0:09:44 you know it's been one of the most
0:09:46 important projects i think i've ever
0:09:47 undertook in my entire life
0:09:50 you know
0:09:51 and i'm very happy that we have now
0:09:53 reached
0:09:54 the end of this series and we're going
0:09:56 to go into another series which is uh
0:09:58 going to be equally important
0:10:00 and another series after that and after
0:10:02 four or five of these series you can
0:10:03 imagine with the islamic studies that
0:10:05 we're all doing on the sides now as well
0:10:07 where we'll be in two or three years
0:10:09 we'll be in a position where we're all
0:10:10 rounded we'll be in a position where we
0:10:12 transform ourselves and i think this
0:10:14 what's happening here
0:10:16 it's not happening anywhere else in the
0:10:17 world
0:10:18 not because of
0:10:19 anything else but the fact that we can
0:10:20 facilitate certain things that other
0:10:22 people in the world cannot facilitate
0:10:24 so this is a golden golden golden
0:10:26 opportunity
0:10:27 this is such a golden opportunity that i
0:10:29 can't even imagine
0:10:33 anyone would voluntarily forego it and
0:10:35 that's why to be fair everyone that
0:10:36 started practically has ended with us
0:10:39 which is a great sign a great sign that
0:10:42 there's been evaluation of knowledge
0:10:43 from both sides
0:10:45 and of course i'm not going to forget
0:10:47 carlos
0:10:48 uh how could i and how could we and you
0:10:50 know he's been the most professional uh
0:10:53 you know uh
0:10:55 he's he's not just his editing his
0:10:56 graphics but people don't realize that
0:10:58 this man has facilitated discussion you
0:11:00 know he has facilitator he's been
0:11:02 himself the leader of discussions
0:11:04 um he's facilitated guests
0:11:06 um his his contributions have been just
0:11:09 about right you know not too
0:11:10 antagonistic and not too passive
0:11:13 and so he's been i consider him as a
0:11:15 member of the team actually and i think
0:11:16 all of you
0:11:17 uh would agree with me and attest to
0:11:19 that fact as well
0:11:21 and so i want to give everyone a thank
0:11:23 you from in this class and to those
0:11:25 who've been watching at home because i
0:11:26 know there's lots of people that will be
0:11:27 watching at home
0:11:30 who
0:11:31 have also been benefiting and benefiting
0:11:33 us because without them any any of this
0:11:34 would not be possible anyway let's be
0:11:35 honest
0:11:37 um the people watching at home they're
0:11:38 the lifeblood of the sapience institute
0:11:42 with that
0:11:43 the quality can begin in jalala
0:11:49 s
0:12:12 and what powerful abit they were um
0:12:15 we're not going to translate them
0:12:16 exactly we're going to have translations
0:12:18 of the entire poem and the poem is going
0:12:19 to be published as well
0:12:21 in the english and hopefully the arabic
0:12:22 as well and the book will be a shock
0:12:24 will be complete completely released
0:12:26 about what we've discussed today in
0:12:27 addition to these video
0:12:29 materials if you go on the group you'll
0:12:31 find as well
0:12:32 the powerpoint slides for today they're
0:12:34 not that many slides only eight because
0:12:36 it's going to be discussion heavy
0:12:39 the first thing is we these definitions
0:12:41 or the definition i found was from plato
0:12:43 the
0:12:44 philosophy
0:12:45 encyclopedia online
0:12:47 and the first thing we need to do is
0:12:49 define what is nationalism
0:12:51 nationalism
0:12:53 is generally used to describe two
0:12:54 phenomena okay so nationalism is used to
0:12:57 define to to define or describe two
0:12:59 phenomena number one the attitude that
0:13:02 members of a nation have when they care
0:13:04 about their nation or national identity
0:13:06 and number two the actions that the
0:13:08 members of a nation take
0:13:09 when seeking to achieve
0:13:11 or sustain self-determination
0:13:15 now
0:13:18 these are quite mundane descriptions one
0:13:20 may ask what's the problem with
0:13:21 nationalism what is nationalism we still
0:13:23 may not even understand what nationalism
0:13:25 is based on these descriptions
0:13:28 and we spoke about individualism versus
0:13:29 collectivism in previous sessions
0:13:32 and who knows who could summarize uh for
0:13:34 us what the key
0:13:36 distinctions between individualism and
0:13:38 collectivism
0:13:50 so individualism uh is we're thinking
0:13:52 about viewing the individual as the
0:13:53 primary unit of analysis uh or there's
0:13:56 collectivism as you view social groups
0:13:58 as primary right so now you've done
0:14:00 right in being able to but i would say
0:14:03 this is still methodological
0:14:04 individualism yeah so how do we move it
0:14:05 now into ethical kind of
0:14:08 normative individuals so then it becomes
0:14:09 about which of those two things that you
0:14:11 give are primarily considered beautiful
0:14:12 okay and what is nationalism do you
0:14:13 think
0:14:14 so nationalism is is a basically a
0:14:16 collectivism that's promised on the idea
0:14:18 of a nation so beautiful that's becomes
0:14:20 a group of people excellent i want to
0:14:21 start off by saying and i've actually
0:14:23 was watching a podcast recently
0:14:25 um
0:14:26 with
0:14:27 someone who's unsuspecting to this
0:14:29 discussion but uh john donna i was
0:14:31 talking about it before
0:14:33 and um and he said he made a really good
0:14:34 point
0:14:36 these guys are like a bjj expert but
0:14:37 he's also philosopher
0:14:39 he said um
0:14:42 if you look at the human being he said
0:14:44 yeah if you look at the human being
0:14:46 uh and compare it to other animals in
0:14:48 animal kingdom
0:14:50 like as the specs of the human being
0:14:52 compared to the specs of the apex
0:14:53 predators
0:14:55 the four-legged animal we're talking
0:14:56 about right the lions and the cheetahs
0:14:58 and the you know
0:15:00 then the human being doesn't square up
0:15:01 that good at all
0:15:02 like if the human being didn't have his
0:15:05 intelligence
0:15:06 and one other thing that we're going to
0:15:07 talk about in a second and they were
0:15:09 left alone
0:15:10 to in in the jungle or whatever it is
0:15:13 yeah where would they really rank they'd
0:15:15 rank quite low
0:15:17 the only thing that we have is like okay
0:15:18 kind of average he stated which is true
0:15:21 is endurance
0:15:22 but if a human being i mean we can fight
0:15:25 a kangaroo like have you seen fights
0:15:26 between a human being in a kangaroo
0:15:28 maybe you'll be a kangaroo maybe you'll
0:15:29 lose but going against uh you know a
0:15:31 silverback ape um gorilla or even a
0:15:33 probably a chimpanzee will beat you
0:15:35 i mean the chimpanzee a chihuahua will
0:15:37 finish him
0:15:42 you know it will take a grizzly bear you
0:15:44 know to deal with me something like me
0:15:48 but what i'm saying is where do we where
0:15:50 do we kind of we're nothing like on this
0:15:51 on the on the on the hierarchy of like
0:15:54 physical attributes
0:15:57 but what has and he made this point what
0:15:59 has made the human being really what he
0:16:00 is is collaboration intelligence yes but
0:16:03 collaboration number two
0:16:05 if you think about this like
0:16:07 we are the product of not just the
0:16:10 groups that we've been able to form
0:16:12 but the collective knowledge that we've
0:16:13 been able to access
0:16:15 for hundreds if not thousands of years
0:16:17 like this phone that i hold in my hand
0:16:19 it's not just some guy from samsung
0:16:21 deciding that i've got all the
0:16:22 technology here
0:16:24 he is building this phone based on
0:16:26 technology
0:16:28 which required like knowledge of
0:16:29 mathematics which we needed holidays
0:16:32 before and these kind of mathematicians
0:16:34 go before him to the holistic period the
0:16:36 greeks we needed all of them
0:16:38 so if we're we're always building on the
0:16:40 shoulders of giants
0:16:42 what has made human beings successful
0:16:44 and the top of the food chain
0:16:46 where they would have otherwise been
0:16:47 nowhere near even in the middle of the
0:16:49 food chain maybe at the bottom of it
0:16:51 is the fact that we've been able to
0:16:52 collaborate with one another
0:16:54 and politics is no different
0:16:57 because politicians have realized this
0:16:59 reality
0:17:00 that one person's success is almost
0:17:02 contingent on the success of the of the
0:17:03 collective
0:17:04 and this continues being the case and he
0:17:06 made this point it is especially the
0:17:08 case even in sports
0:17:10 even in sports even if it's an
0:17:12 individual sport ironically even if it's
0:17:13 an individual sport you need to be in
0:17:15 groups in order to progress and he was
0:17:17 saying he deals with an individual sport
0:17:18 brazilian jiu-jitsu
0:17:21 but people in order to progress they
0:17:22 have to work as a group and share
0:17:23 secrets together share notes together
0:17:25 share ideas together collaborate with
0:17:27 one another one person doing it is never
0:17:29 enough we're living in especially
0:17:31 nowadays because we're living in an age
0:17:32 of specialism
0:17:34 al hazali and this is going a bit of an
0:17:36 attention but he said something quite
0:17:37 interesting and important
0:17:39 he stated in one of his books i can't
0:17:41 remember which one
0:17:42 but he said i studied philosophy for two
0:17:44 years and i exhausted all the material
0:17:45 that is out there
0:17:47 that's that's pretty that's pretty
0:17:49 ridiculous statement
0:17:50 it's ridiculous if you apply it to
0:17:51 today's context but at that time there
0:17:53 was only a limited amount of books that
0:17:54 you could read
0:17:56 so you could actually exhaust the books
0:17:57 in two years
0:18:00 you see but now you cannot do that no
0:18:01 one can say to me oh in two years i've
0:18:03 completed all philosophy in two years
0:18:05 i've completed anything because we're
0:18:06 living in an age of specialism
0:18:08 you need 10 years to be a specialist of
0:18:10 one little thing you go to a university
0:18:12 you'll find like there's a guy that's
0:18:13 standing a phd on igneous rock and
0:18:14 sedimentary rock
0:18:16 let alone i'm a geology specialist no it
0:18:17 doesn't work like that anymore
0:18:19 and in an age where that's the case you
0:18:21 need more people to come together now
0:18:22 politics and economics has found that
0:18:24 out
0:18:25 because in economics you have the law of
0:18:26 comparative advantage this is very well
0:18:28 known law
0:18:30 where you have an advantage in making
0:18:31 this product and i have an advantage of
0:18:33 making that product therefore we're
0:18:34 going to both make our specialized
0:18:35 products and then we're going to trade
0:18:37 with one another we're going to trade on
0:18:38 that basis
0:18:40 economies have become more specialized
0:18:42 and they become more efficient and
0:18:43 people make more money that way
0:18:45 likewise in politics
0:18:47 working together an individual a pure
0:18:49 individualism
0:18:50 is always going to be a failure
0:18:53 the reason why america is a superpower
0:18:55 like no other today
0:18:57 despite having individualistic
0:18:58 tendencies strong
0:19:00 individualistic traits
0:19:02 is because it's a nationalistic country
0:19:06 it's premise on nationalism
0:19:08 nationalism the flag
0:19:10 patriotism our country you go to any uh
0:19:13 foot sporting event whether they say usa
0:19:15 usa usa
0:19:17 they're really on that kind of thing
0:19:19 it's one team
0:19:21 they realize that
0:19:24 and i'll be honest with you it makes a
0:19:26 lot of sense
0:19:27 it makes practical sense it makes
0:19:28 economic sense and makes political sense
0:19:31 but as we'll find out from an islamic
0:19:33 perspective
0:19:34 we have another system
0:19:37 we have another system where the
0:19:38 identity marker is not nation number one
0:19:40 it's religion number and we're going to
0:19:42 come to that
0:19:43 and why that has that has meant that we
0:19:45 can be even more successful really
0:19:47 putting people of different
0:19:48 nationalities together
0:19:49 but having said that
0:19:52 the first
0:19:53 question that we need to ask
0:19:56 is what makes a nation
0:19:58 itself
0:20:01 so here this is mentioned i'm thinking
0:20:03 as an except from the
0:20:05 plato nations and national identity may
0:20:07 be defined in terms of common origin
0:20:08 ethnicity or cultural ties and while
0:20:10 individual membership in the nation is
0:20:11 often regarded as what is involuntary is
0:20:13 sometimes regarded as voluntary
0:20:15 the degree of care for one's nation that
0:20:17 nationalists require is often but not
0:20:19 always taken to be very high according
0:20:22 to such views it claims that one's
0:20:23 nation takes precedence over rival
0:20:24 contenders for authority and loyalty in
0:20:26 other words the nation's number one the
0:20:28 nation has to be number one in order for
0:20:31 nationalism to be nationalism it's not
0:20:33 just that you have
0:20:34 a regard for your country that you care
0:20:36 about your country where you're from or
0:20:37 your people that's something which
0:20:39 the scope for the islamic discourse is
0:20:41 the fact
0:20:42 that you put it as number one
0:20:45 and so
0:20:46 the first question i'm going to leave to
0:20:47 the group
0:20:48 is
0:20:51 we're looking at the definition of what
0:20:52 it is
0:20:53 to be a nation
0:20:55 what are the complications that arise
0:20:57 with this definition
0:20:59 so i'll give you two minutes to speak to
0:21:00 the person next to you and as there's
0:21:02 two more questions
0:21:04 is full statehood required in other
0:21:05 words when i say that
0:21:07 uh we have two people that from
0:21:08 kurdistan today they don't really have a
0:21:09 kurdish
0:21:10 kurdistan nation as in the whole nation
0:21:12 right you have some parts of it which
0:21:14 you know but the entire thing is not a
0:21:17 nation it's a good example
0:21:18 before 1948 the jews were in a similar
0:21:20 position
0:21:21 okay
0:21:22 so do you need
0:21:24 such a place in order for a nation to be
0:21:26 defined or is or is a nation defined
0:21:31 not in accordance with
0:21:32 uh that so it can be it can be anything
0:21:34 else and the third question is what is
0:21:36 the difference between nationalism and
0:21:38 patriotism because these are two words
0:21:39 which are commonly used in conjunction
0:21:41 with one another
0:21:42 is there a difference where is the where
0:21:44 is the line of uh you know difference so
0:21:46 these are three questions you can speak
0:21:48 i think we should do groups of three
0:21:49 actually today let's do groups of three
0:21:51 speak to the person next to you and the
0:21:52 person next to that person and then
0:21:54 after five to seven minutes we'll come
0:21:56 back and discuss these questions
0:21:58 what i want to start by saying is that
0:22:00 you know back in the days we don't have
0:22:01 as many of these problems because
0:22:03 tribalism is a little bit more
0:22:04 straightforward than nationalism think
0:22:06 about it right tribalism is where your
0:22:07 what your tribe is and what your
0:22:08 lineages
0:22:10 so it's easier to define like my tribe
0:22:12 is that's a much more
0:22:14 kind of straightforward concept but the
0:22:15 nation now has become such a complicated
0:22:17 one comparative to that
0:22:20 and as a result
0:22:22 i think tribalism was a bigger problem
0:22:23 than nationalism could be because
0:22:25 tribalism is like so immediate you come
0:22:27 out you see all the tribe there you know
0:22:29 your lineage
0:22:30 and then you're putting that ahead of
0:22:32 everything else that's what the prophet
0:22:33 saws had to do with
0:22:35 that is and we're going to come to that
0:22:36 in the end of this session
0:22:38 but having said that the question is uh
0:22:40 on on nationalism what are some of the
0:22:42 complications that go into the questions
0:22:43 what are some of the complications that
0:22:45 one can
0:22:46 uh think of
0:22:49 it's true
0:22:50 if you
0:22:52 have a national identity
0:22:55 it's something that you need to
0:22:57 as a human being you need to control
0:23:00 uh unless because it's a fine line
0:23:02 between nationalism
0:23:05 and
0:23:05 it goes into racism when you see
0:23:08 yourself above other people
0:23:10 and
0:23:12 me myself it's it's something that i
0:23:15 is the biggest problem that i have
0:23:17 as a person is nationalism
0:23:20 because it can bubble over into
0:23:23 something that's unpleasant
0:23:25 so that's that's my biggest challenge as
0:23:27 a human being is to control that
0:23:30 uh within an islamic framework for me
0:23:33 personally
0:23:34 yeah absolutely it's very honest if you
0:23:36 say that as well
0:23:38 and we will come to the fact that it's
0:23:39 not a problem to identify with your
0:23:41 country and race as well and to love a
0:23:43 certain place more than another place i
0:23:45 mean the prophet sallam he made
0:23:48 to love medina like he loves mecca so he
0:23:51 had preferences you know people that
0:23:54 have certain cultural and geographic
0:23:56 uh kind of affinities
0:23:59 they're not the ones who are lambasted
0:24:00 from the islamic discourse or otherwise
0:24:02 shunned
0:24:03 we'll come to exactly the islamic side
0:24:05 and and what follows
0:24:07 it's really those who prioritize the
0:24:09 nation above the religion it's
0:24:11 categorically the most problematic thing
0:24:13 that we can find and it was an issue at
0:24:15 the time of the prophet that he dealt
0:24:17 with himself
0:24:18 so this there's very specific guidance
0:24:20 on this thing but going back to the
0:24:21 questions and thank you for that
0:24:23 contribution
0:24:25 first question was what are some of the
0:24:26 complications that arise with that
0:24:27 definition so the definition of
0:24:30 nationalism that we talked about and if
0:24:31 you want to see the definition you can
0:24:33 look at it there's two parts there yeah
0:24:37 so first of all it was very broad it's a
0:24:38 very broad definition yeah
0:24:40 second of all it says how it may be to
0:24:43 do with uh ethnicity or ethnic origin
0:24:46 and once again if you look at america
0:24:47 and you're considered a nation
0:24:49 you have
0:24:50 uh african americans you have uh native
0:24:53 americans
0:24:54 or red indians whatever you want to call
0:24:56 them
0:24:57 um
0:24:58 you've got a very you've got a vast
0:25:00 vast amount of different ethnic groups
0:25:03 if we're gonna really boil down to it
0:25:04 good point but at the same time it's all
0:25:06 considered the same nation so they would
0:25:07 all attribute themselves to
0:25:09 usa
0:25:10 that's a good point and you know in
0:25:11 america they have a program and you'll
0:25:13 be very surprised that the words that in
0:25:16 the political discourse that people use
0:25:17 so you'll be surprised that in england
0:25:20 and the uk and western countries they
0:25:22 call it integration so once someone
0:25:23 comes from another country they need to
0:25:25 integrate into our value system whereas
0:25:28 in america it's not really integration
0:25:29 it's assimilation
0:25:31 and so if you go to america and you
0:25:32 speak to a black man you'll say where
0:25:34 you from he'll say philadelphia he
0:25:36 doesn't understand a question i said
0:25:37 where you originally from he doesn't
0:25:39 know because he has been assimilated to
0:25:41 the point of not knowing where his
0:25:43 heritage is if you ask a black man in
0:25:45 this country where you from he'll say
0:25:47 i'm from nigeria i'm from the igbo tribe
0:25:48 i'm from this and that and he'll sub sub
0:25:50 sub sub he'll know everything
0:25:52 right there's a big difference here and
0:25:54 obviously there's a colonial and a
0:25:56 slavery legacy that happened in america
0:25:58 which didn't happen in the uk in exactly
0:26:00 the same way
0:26:01 that defines that kind of thing but it's
0:26:02 also to do with this idea of
0:26:04 assimilation
0:26:05 the americans because they realize
0:26:08 that the success of their nation
0:26:10 although they're individuals in some
0:26:12 senses but the success of the continued
0:26:13 success of their nation as a superpower
0:26:15 depends on
0:26:16 a national identity
0:26:19 so they they have a very strong culture
0:26:21 of assimilation by the way this is very
0:26:23 important for us as muslims because
0:26:25 you'll find that muslim communities for
0:26:26 example
0:26:27 are more strongly affected by this kind
0:26:30 of thing so you'll find for example
0:26:31 muslim scholars and clerics making a big
0:26:34 thing about being an american
0:26:36 you don't find the same kind of thing in
0:26:37 the english discourse british discourse
0:26:39 yeah for example if you and we we've
0:26:40 kind of identified this ourselves you
0:26:42 never really find union jack flags
0:26:44 in the
0:26:45 in in the streets in london for example
0:26:47 unless england is playing football
0:26:49 or england flags
0:26:51 and where we do find england flags is
0:26:52 usually you know far right and all these
0:26:54 kind of things and let's be honest in
0:26:55 america that's that's not the case in
0:26:57 america the flag is is is actually in
0:26:59 every school
0:27:00 and it's seen as a staple part of
0:27:02 american life the national anthem is
0:27:04 part of the school you wake up you have
0:27:05 to give allegiance to the flag you have
0:27:07 to give anyone flag burning in america
0:27:09 is not like flag burning in england
0:27:11 both are problematic i mean i'm not
0:27:13 saying but in america if you go to some
0:27:15 areas you flag burn
0:27:16 you're putting your life in danger when
0:27:18 in england if you do it in in the center
0:27:20 of london you will maybe be attacked and
0:27:22 assaulted possibly but most people will
0:27:24 just leave it
0:27:25 and there's a reason for that it's
0:27:26 because then the nation the assimilation
0:27:30 uh is the theory or the theme of
0:27:32 assimilation america is much stronger
0:27:33 and they did that on purpose
0:27:36 and they connected with it and i'm not
0:27:37 sure if you know this they connected
0:27:39 with the other themes and theories
0:27:41 the like of which for example
0:27:44 i'm not sure if you guys have heard of
0:27:45 manifest destiny have you heard of this
0:27:47 manifest destiny is an idea that and the
0:27:50 westwood expansion two two ideas
0:27:52 connected to american um nationalism
0:27:55 manifest destiny is like literally it's
0:27:57 our destiny as americans to take over
0:27:59 the world
0:28:00 and it might surprise you to realize
0:28:02 that every american president has
0:28:04 believed in manifest destiny
0:28:06 every single america explicitly or
0:28:07 implicitly believes in the manifestos
0:28:09 moreover westwood expansion is because
0:28:11 when america first came in when the
0:28:14 colonizers or white men came into
0:28:17 america and the red indians and so on
0:28:18 they were expanding westward
0:28:20 so this idea of westward expansion is
0:28:22 like spreading america by american
0:28:24 culture by the sword
0:28:26 you know they all believe in this thing
0:28:28 every single president american history
0:28:30 why because for them
0:28:32 it's not just a matter of being a nation
0:28:34 being defending itself but it's also
0:28:36 expanding across the world which of
0:28:37 course
0:28:38 when we go back to like human rights and
0:28:40 state sovereignty and democracy and
0:28:42 self-determination
0:28:43 these concepts of american nationalism
0:28:45 fly in the face
0:28:47 of these things
0:28:50 so yeah i think that's a very good point
0:28:51 about um
0:28:53 about
0:28:54 assimilation about uh what is
0:28:57 what is it in fact anyway because if
0:28:59 it's to do with ethnicity it's a good
0:29:01 point
0:29:02 you know how far back do we go
0:29:04 how far back do we go and this is where
0:29:06 ever especially right-wing types they
0:29:08 find it very difficult five generations
0:29:09 they say three generations oh who
0:29:10 determines that
0:29:13 who the term is that you know
0:29:15 and you know where is it the white or
0:29:16 you are the more british you are like
0:29:17 they really struggle on these questions
0:29:19 they do what if you're half what if
0:29:21 you're mixed race they struggle on these
0:29:22 questions
0:29:23 there are some like let me give you
0:29:24 another example in the british context
0:29:26 we've seen what happened in the when
0:29:27 england played in the european cup
0:29:31 look at the racism that took the
0:29:33 to the black players
0:29:35 imagine if there was a muslim
0:29:37 a muslim black player or a muslim asian
0:29:40 player
0:29:42 like imagine like you have like this guy
0:29:43 who's the cricketer
0:29:45 imagine we had the more an ali type in
0:29:47 the england squad
0:29:50 i don't know how they would react
0:29:52 maybe they wouldn't accept him at all
0:29:53 they'd completely refuse
0:29:55 because
0:29:56 you know
0:29:57 why should he represent england
0:30:00 take
0:30:01 american
0:30:02 pakistani boxer
0:30:04 how much support does he get from
0:30:05 english fans
0:30:07 compared to ricky han
0:30:10 compare him with aj aj gets more support
0:30:12 than amir khan he's mixed ray oh he's
0:30:15 black actually
0:30:16 so what's going on here
0:30:19 how did you define a british person
0:30:21 a lot of it's arbitrary and it goes
0:30:23 boils down to the subjective preferences
0:30:25 of certain groups
0:30:27 we'll accept you as part of the nation
0:30:28 we won't accept you and ethnicity does
0:30:30 have a big part to play
0:30:32 another thing that has a big part to
0:30:34 play
0:30:35 is borders now let's have a conversation
0:30:37 about borders what do you think the
0:30:38 issue of borders is
0:30:42 yes
0:30:43 yes
0:30:43 it will sort of relate to what we were
0:30:44 talking about which is that
0:30:47 you know when you're saying that
0:30:48 tribalism is a bit more straightforward
0:30:49 because it's based very much on exactly
0:30:51 who you're related to and you can track
0:30:52 the family and the lineage in the line
0:30:53 and that type of thing
0:30:55 uh with a lot of the nations that we're
0:30:56 dealing with currently obviously it
0:30:58 might not exactly be the case with
0:31:00 america because their inception was a
0:31:01 bit different but certainly for a lot of
0:31:03 the countries in let's say the uh
0:31:05 areas that used to be colonized the
0:31:07 current borders that they have are very
0:31:08 arbitrary and so it's a bit weird
0:31:11 because you have like an affinity to
0:31:13 uh basically a patch of land that was
0:31:14 arbitrarily placed like you know by
0:31:17 frankly by western powers like saks peak
0:31:19 and all that kind of stuff that took
0:31:20 place
0:31:22 in the 20th century so it was an
0:31:23 agreement between
0:31:25 uh i believe um basically like some of
0:31:27 the british and french
0:31:30 like uh foreign ministers i believe they
0:31:31 were
0:31:33 and it was basically after the the the
0:31:36 during the colonial period in the mid
0:31:38 20th century in asia and other areas
0:31:41 they basically were they sat down at a
0:31:43 map and they started basically drawing
0:31:45 the lines of how they wanted to break up
0:31:46 the lands and stuff like that and they
0:31:48 did it very strategically so they took
0:31:50 tribes that they knew basically had
0:31:51 problems and that type of thing and they
0:31:52 put them all in the same area and they
0:31:54 did that kind of stuff in order to
0:31:55 maintain control of those areas so it's
0:31:57 a big problem for nationalism i think in
0:31:59 israel it is i mean a lot of the flag
0:32:01 the palestinian flag the egyptian flag
0:32:02 the all the flags with red white and
0:32:04 black
0:32:05 were put in place by the western powers
0:32:08 uh almost all the flags in our world in
0:32:10 fact i mean were put in place like that
0:32:12 by western powers almost all of them
0:32:13 with no exception
0:32:16 so the flag and that flag is a great
0:32:18 symbol for a nation
0:32:20 it's just been put in the irony of it
0:32:21 being put in place by white men
0:32:24 and then you know
0:32:26 but
0:32:26 again the question of borders i had a
0:32:29 conversation with an egyptian
0:32:30 nationalist one time
0:32:31 who explicitly told me
0:32:34 he explicitly told me
0:32:35 that he says that the um
0:32:38 the nation should be before the religion
0:32:41 which is a statement of disbelief really
0:32:42 like how does that even make sense well
0:32:44 when you're in your grave when the angel
0:32:46 asks you
0:32:47 man you're not going to say
0:32:51 you know you're not going to say that
0:32:54 so the the the point which is a phrase
0:32:56 we use uh let egypt live you know
0:32:59 in egypt where i'm from
0:33:01 i said to him if egypt if everyone in
0:33:03 egypt were to relocate to algeria
0:33:06 and everyone out here algeria went to
0:33:07 egypt would egypt now be called egypt
0:33:09 now algeria would we change the names on
0:33:11 the map
0:33:12 and it kind of he was so
0:33:14 disturbed by that question he went to
0:33:16 his wife you can see him almost sweating
0:33:19 because it kind of for him it was like
0:33:20 cognitive dissonance he didn't know what
0:33:22 to do with it
0:33:23 and then he started thinking and then he
0:33:25 ate food and then he came back and he
0:33:27 kept changing his answers yes no yes no
0:33:30 but his wife was disagreeing with him at
0:33:32 one point they're both the same by the
0:33:33 way
0:33:34 she was like no egypt has mentioned the
0:33:35 quran it's about the land it's not about
0:33:37 the people he was like no
0:33:38 it's not about the because even the
0:33:40 quran but it includes sudan did you know
0:33:43 it includes that time so okay but about
0:33:47 this and that and those people those
0:33:49 ancient egyptians didn't look anything
0:33:51 like us modern egyptians let's be honest
0:33:53 look at
0:33:54 his little black black man
0:33:56 he was you know flat flat our nose and
0:33:58 this kind of thing and the darker he
0:34:00 can't see his caliber you can tell that
0:34:01 he wasn't the same
0:34:03 more like the southern egyptians now
0:34:05 okay
0:34:06 so again
0:34:07 nubians yeah yeah no there was there was
0:34:10 a there was another province nubia
0:34:12 where the egyptians were but even the
0:34:14 ancient egyptians themselves
0:34:15 but what i'm saying is is that
0:34:18 what is it then
0:34:19 to be and you know
0:34:21 he was disturbed by the question
0:34:24 uh but it makes you think
0:34:26 it makes you think because
0:34:28 you know what does it mean to be an
0:34:29 egyptian would speak egyptian arabic
0:34:31 so what if all of the people in algeria
0:34:33 started speaking engineering they become
0:34:34 individuals
0:34:35 is it to eat the koshali
0:34:38 which is not really a nice meal anyway
0:34:40 to be honest with you
0:34:41 i mean someone like i don't mind that
0:34:43 it's fine it's okay but it's not top 10
0:34:44 of any
0:34:45 dishes in the world
0:34:47 what is it then
0:34:49 what does it mean to make an egyptian
0:34:53 and then he was confused and all that
0:34:54 kind of thing so where do we start the
0:34:56 clock because if we go behind before the
0:34:58 arab invasion
0:35:00 or the islamic conquests
0:35:03 the orientalists would call it the
0:35:03 arabic vision
0:35:05 then you had the
0:35:06 part there were a significant force
0:35:09 there the cops
0:35:10 the armed egyptian that we speak is a
0:35:12 combination of
0:35:13 coptic
0:35:15 coptic language and arabic language and
0:35:17 other languages
0:35:18 so what were the the egyptians and you
0:35:21 know it becomes ridiculous it becomes
0:35:22 ridiculous because i'm not sure if you
0:35:24 know this francis the second was
0:35:25 discovered at the time of the sadat
0:35:28 said that was the president in the
0:35:30 1970s and egypt yeah before after germa
0:35:36 and
0:35:37 there's parts of the egyptian
0:35:38 nationalist project which are so against
0:35:40 islam
0:35:41 for example with the egyptian national
0:35:43 team which i have to
0:35:45 put my hands up and say i do support
0:35:47 although yesterday they uh
0:35:49 they let us down
0:35:50 but i felt good for synagogue because
0:35:52 they were 95 muslim we discovered it was
0:35:55 their muslim nation uh very good people
0:35:57 i felt kind of sorry for them you know i
0:35:59 let them have it the first time you know
0:36:00 no problem
0:36:02 sadio money walking around arrogantly
0:36:04 like that
0:36:06 anyway that's no problem it was good it
0:36:08 was good but the point is
0:36:10 they call themselves the young pharaohs
0:36:12 which is totally against islam so that
0:36:16 let's say that the the president
0:36:18 he put in ramses the second okay he gave
0:36:20 him he he he he he gave him the red
0:36:23 carpet who's they most historians say
0:36:25 romans the second was the pharaoh of the
0:36:26 quran
0:36:28 this is the strongest proof we went
0:36:30 through this i think before the
0:36:31 strongest proof is that romans ii was
0:36:33 the first he gave him the red carpet and
0:36:34 he sent him off to france so you're
0:36:36 sending off the the person who
0:36:38 in the quranic discourse is the
0:36:40 archetypal antagonist
0:36:42 and giving him respect because he's
0:36:44 egyptian
0:36:45 whereas if you saw him he probably was a
0:36:46 black man that you would say
0:36:48 actually that was quite black himself
0:36:50 to be fair
0:36:51 but you see the point it's uh
0:36:55 it's something which
0:36:56 boggles the mind and something which is
0:36:58 causes confusion causes cognitive
0:37:00 dissonance causing all kinds of problems
0:37:01 of course the egyptian nationalist
0:37:03 project and the arab nationalist project
0:37:05 was one of the biggest failures in
0:37:06 history
0:37:09 and that's another conversation for
0:37:10 another day but the point i'm making is
0:37:13 what i'm making is
0:37:14 that how do you define the serious
0:37:16 complications with defining who your
0:37:18 people are in the first place
0:37:20 who are your people
0:37:22 you know
0:37:24 um real problems
0:37:26 and it becomes even more pathetic quite
0:37:27 frankly so this is somalia in the room
0:37:29 so i might as well just make some let's
0:37:30 talk about egyptians let's talk about
0:37:32 somalis for a little bit you know when
0:37:34 when the italians came i wasn't doing a
0:37:36 history masters in their university
0:37:38 there was a white man professor
0:37:42 um very middle class guy and he was
0:37:44 talking about somalia
0:37:46 and he was a and wendy and he was kind
0:37:48 of like you know it's i'm not sure if i
0:37:50 told you this before
0:37:51 but he was like and what they're
0:37:53 colonizing powers
0:37:56 they was crumbling over
0:37:58 uh somalia he used the formal name the
0:38:01 first time he's talking about obviously
0:38:02 somalia was split between as you know
0:38:04 the so-called somaliland and the rest of
0:38:05 somalia which is a nonsense split and
0:38:07 people are falling for it and fighting
0:38:08 each other over it
0:38:10 and he said uh
0:38:12 and then the second time he mentioned
0:38:13 what somalia he didn't mention it was
0:38:14 somalia you know he said
0:38:16 so when they were fighting over the
0:38:18 crumbs of africa
0:38:21 and continued
0:38:24 the crumbs of africa he called it i'll
0:38:26 never forget this
0:38:27 and see how they think of it
0:38:29 you know we went to the crumbs of africa
0:38:31 he had the same colonial mindset put
0:38:32 online and these guys let them fight
0:38:34 each other like animals
0:38:36 and now i used to tutor somali community
0:38:39 at one time i went to
0:38:41 somali person's house
0:38:43 and
0:38:44 it's a true story
0:38:46 someone came out of the house
0:38:49 we were looking through the window
0:38:51 and he said you see that guy there
0:38:53 i said yeah
0:38:55 i see him yeah
0:38:57 he said if i was in somalia kill him
0:38:59 i said why he said from a different
0:39:00 tribe different disaster you're a crazy
0:39:02 guy man he still had it he literally
0:39:04 said if we were in somalia i would kill
0:39:06 him that's what he said to me i remember
0:39:07 the exact words and i i looked at his
0:39:09 face to see if he was joking and there
0:39:11 was no
0:39:12 there was no laughing there was no
0:39:13 laughing matter for the man
0:39:15 you know
0:39:16 if he was in the crumbs of africa he
0:39:17 would have known addiction
0:39:18 [Laughter]
0:39:21 you know the the point is this is that
0:39:24 you know
0:39:25 it's it's ridiculous that how how
0:39:27 partisan we can become
0:39:29 on these matters
0:39:32 and so um
0:39:34 that so now people people say i'm from
0:39:35 somalia land now i'm from hergesa i'm
0:39:37 not from makatushu
0:39:38 i'm not from this
0:39:40 and then they go into more uh details
0:39:42 and say i'm from this tribe and from
0:39:43 that tram from
0:39:44 but i don't know what you are i don't
0:39:46 care
0:39:47 it doesn't matter
0:39:48 you know
0:39:50 and you know it becomes because some
0:39:51 people are confused they don't even know
0:39:52 where they are wherever they are because
0:39:54 but our tribe they you know i have a
0:39:55 family member from that
0:39:57 and is he kenyan is he a somalian is he
0:40:00 a yemeni or is he all of it
0:40:01 i just don't know
0:40:04 one thing you do know is you're muslim
0:40:05 right so let's stick with that which we
0:40:08 do now
0:40:10 uh is full statehood uh required and so
0:40:13 obviously um the jewish nation was a
0:40:15 jewish nation for thousands of years and
0:40:16 for a long time that i have a state
0:40:18 the fact that the jews as many jews who
0:40:21 have formulated zionism almost make it a
0:40:23 prerequisite for them to have a state
0:40:25 could be said to be an indication
0:40:27 that there's an inferiority complex that
0:40:29 they have that without a state we
0:40:31 wouldn't be a people
0:40:34 is that what is required so you need a
0:40:35 patch of land it has to be this state it
0:40:37 has to be in this area and has to be
0:40:40 so that means that without the state you
0:40:41 would not be without the land you would
0:40:42 not be a people
0:40:44 without the land what was so special
0:40:46 about that land
0:40:48 or for them obviously there's religious
0:40:49 significance but what about the atheists
0:40:51 zionists
0:40:52 he still makes the argument
0:40:54 secular zionists they still make the
0:40:55 argument
0:40:57 but they'll make you on the matter of
0:40:58 self-determination
0:41:00 anyway
0:41:01 no problem i'm not saying it's a
0:41:03 completely invalid argument
0:41:05 what i'm saying is one that is easily
0:41:07 confused
0:41:09 so i'm talking about arguments
0:41:11 what i want you to do
0:41:13 okay with the person next to you in the
0:41:15 next two slides two slides you have some
0:41:17 of the main arguments
0:41:19 for nationalism i want you to read them
0:41:22 and summarize them and someone's going
0:41:24 to so actually look
0:41:26 group one there's a group one one two
0:41:28 three your group one now
0:41:29 one two three your group two
0:41:32 one two three your group three
0:41:34 one two three group four and one two
0:41:36 three group five yeah was it did i say
0:41:38 five is that right
0:41:40 so what group were you
0:41:42 what group were you
0:41:44 what group were you
0:41:45 what group are you
0:41:48 and are you who's group five is that
0:41:49 group five
0:41:50 one two
0:41:54 okay uh can you do two can group five do
0:41:57 two
0:41:58 because there's they're not yeah so
0:42:00 summarize each argument these are the
0:42:02 arguments for nationalism
0:42:04 uh so you just deal with the first to
0:42:05 the second the third and so on and then
0:42:07 we'll come back we'll summarize the
0:42:08 arguments and then we'll do arguments
0:42:09 against together collectively we'll look
0:42:11 at a few hadith and we'll call it a day
0:42:12 okay
0:42:13 all right go ahead
0:42:18 all right somebody come on cattle
0:42:19 welcome back
0:42:21 let's let's uh quickly look at the first
0:42:23 group one
0:42:24 let's look at the first thing um that
0:42:26 we've got here
0:42:30 so this is the argument from intrinsic
0:42:32 value who wants to summarize that from
0:42:34 your group
0:42:36 okay yeah
0:42:37 um so the argument from intrinsic value
0:42:40 it seems to be saying
0:42:42 that um if two groups of people or you
0:42:45 know two people they have um common uh
0:42:48 cultural uh proximity which basically
0:42:50 means like they share similar ethos
0:42:53 similar values
0:42:55 um similar cultures
0:42:57 then they should uh work together to
0:42:59 protect these kind of meanings values
0:43:01 and ethos
0:43:03 because these things are valuable and
0:43:04 they need to be protected and they need
0:43:06 to be preserved so i think this seems to
0:43:08 be what the argument from ching's values
0:43:10 and what do you think of that what's
0:43:11 your value judgment of that is there
0:43:12 merit in that argument um i don't think
0:43:14 so i think yeah to to say that you know
0:43:17 we share these common values and they
0:43:18 need to protect
0:43:19 they need to be protected like i think
0:43:21 you first need to justify like that
0:43:23 these values are actually good that
0:43:24 these values deserve to be preserved and
0:43:27 you know transmitted further and down
0:43:28 the line that's a good point uh so you
0:43:30 would say that okay we
0:43:32 not not no problem that is true but
0:43:35 you'd have to prove that these values
0:43:36 that you're talking about or these
0:43:37 things in particular are worthy of
0:43:39 protection obviously the foremost among
0:43:41 the things that should be i mean good
0:43:43 could be arguably protected is language
0:43:45 itself
0:43:47 so if people are speaking this was a big
0:43:49 deal in turkey
0:43:50 uh you know at a turk obviously he'd
0:43:55 you know people that are considered
0:43:56 islamists and stuff like that they make
0:43:58 a big
0:43:59 emphasis on the turkish language
0:44:01 because if turkish people are not going
0:44:02 to preserve the turkish language the
0:44:04 turkish language will not be preserved
0:44:06 and it was a big issue as well with uh
0:44:08 jews well when they side of the the
0:44:11 the so-called state of israel it was a
0:44:13 huge issue to try and kind of bring back
0:44:15 the language
0:44:16 language is huge it's one of the biggest
0:44:18 it's probably the number one thing
0:44:21 which it makes sense to preserve
0:44:23 it does make sense to preserve it
0:44:25 because uh but then the question will be
0:44:27 what languages are more worthy of being
0:44:29 preserved than others
0:44:31 whatever whatever language that's not
0:44:32 being used at the moment or doesn't
0:44:34 access you to any of the world's
0:44:35 civilizational history what use is that
0:44:37 language like for example now people
0:44:39 people study latin yeah
0:44:41 it's a dead language conversationally
0:44:44 but it's not dead in terms of being able
0:44:45 to access primary sources that can get
0:44:47 us closer to
0:44:49 whatever it is
0:44:50 in knowing things about human
0:44:51 civilization
0:44:53 so you can see and this goes back
0:44:55 interestingly to what this marxist was
0:44:57 talking about before use value right
0:44:59 how useful is this language
0:45:01 how useful is this language you know uh
0:45:05 even being able to speak to your
0:45:06 grandparents and your tribus members
0:45:08 that might be very useful
0:45:10 so preserving a language is not
0:45:11 necessarily a wrong thing from the same
0:45:13 perspective
0:45:14 but the question is how useful is it in
0:45:16 the first place and what languages need
0:45:18 to be preserved more than others
0:45:21 and these are very important questions
0:45:23 but yeah
0:45:25 we're it's very important that we don't
0:45:26 come across as
0:45:27 nullifying all of these arguments
0:45:29 because there are some aspects
0:45:30 food for example i think we all
0:45:32 appreciate good
0:45:34 meal
0:45:35 especially me you know if someone has a
0:45:37 good you know where's that where's that
0:45:39 come from
0:45:40 it comes from it's passed on generation
0:45:42 after generation and a nation has a good
0:45:44 recipe because of his geographic
0:45:46 landscape
0:45:48 you know what spices are available in
0:45:50 that place
0:45:51 and so on so they pass on recipes and
0:45:53 that they say this is important to us we
0:45:54 want to keep this
0:45:56 you know or a way of marriage or this or
0:45:58 that's ceremonies or certain clothing
0:46:00 people wear
0:46:01 and we wouldn't have necessarily a
0:46:02 problem with any of that stuff but the
0:46:04 question goes back to value comes back
0:46:05 to you you use anything else what do you
0:46:07 want to say just going to say on the
0:46:08 language point here i think there's
0:46:10 lessons to take from the way that the
0:46:11 muslims dealt with this issue because
0:46:12 obviously what's going to happen is if
0:46:14 when you have like in the early period
0:46:15 of islam when you had more people come
0:46:16 into islam and
0:46:18 then the arabic language obviously
0:46:19 becomes as far as like people begin to
0:46:21 make more mistakes and language and that
0:46:22 type of thing but the muslim response
0:46:24 wasn't to then say therefore we're going
0:46:25 to kind of close off uh i guess islam
0:46:29 ethnically and not allow non-arabs to
0:46:30 come in it was more to kind of codify
0:46:32 the rules of the language from that
0:46:34 standpoint so the preservation of
0:46:35 language doesn't have to be based on
0:46:37 like you know keeping it conquered
0:46:38 ethnically pure you can preserve in
0:46:40 other ways and it wasn't also a matter
0:46:41 of you have to learn arabic and only
0:46:43 speak in arabic
0:46:45 you can speak your own national language
0:46:47 so and the quran mentions this quite
0:46:49 explicitly in fact
0:47:01 differences in colors
0:47:05 and
0:47:06 your languages
0:47:07 so if allah wanted to do away with that
0:47:09 aspect of things and so this aspect
0:47:12 basically what should be challenged here
0:47:13 i think
0:47:14 and go with the challenge
0:47:16 is that this does not need to happen
0:47:18 within a nationalistic framework
0:47:21 so preservation of things which you
0:47:22 think are culturally acceptable can
0:47:24 happen
0:47:25 in a framework which is which is more
0:47:27 meta than a nationalistic framework it
0:47:29 can still be like that
0:47:31 a federalized so-called framework you
0:47:34 know where you have something else which
0:47:35 defines the human as number one but
0:47:37 these things are secondary
0:47:38 considerations and also acceptable
0:47:41 so nationalism the assumption here is
0:47:43 that nationalism
0:47:44 is either the best thing to preserve
0:47:46 these things or the only thing to
0:47:48 preserve these things we say neither of
0:47:49 those things are legitimate because if
0:47:51 you come from a small nation think of it
0:47:53 right if you come from a very small
0:47:55 nation
0:47:57 with
0:47:58 with a very small number of population
0:48:01 for example norway
0:48:03 norway if you've got 5 million or six
0:48:05 million people or something right they
0:48:06 they speak the norwegian language
0:48:10 i mean there's a strong nation in terms
0:48:12 of economics and stuff but if russia
0:48:13 wants to overtake it it's finished it's
0:48:14 done the only thing that's stopping that
0:48:16 is nato and the u.n and all these things
0:48:17 but
0:48:18 you know if russia
0:48:19 it says good we want to overtake this
0:48:21 nation
0:48:22 i mean russia is protecting norway
0:48:23 without russia no we'll be finished
0:48:24 we'll be done
0:48:25 it's too small
0:48:27 but if norway was part of russia and
0:48:29 this was the kind of like idea of the
0:48:30 soviet union in a sense they made an
0:48:32 argument they said that if you're part
0:48:34 of us we can defend you better
0:48:36 and therefore your languages and your
0:48:38 customs and all that that can be
0:48:39 preserved in a better way
0:48:41 you see
0:48:42 and so in many ways
0:48:44 no way for the record was never part of
0:48:46 the soviet union but the idea is one
0:48:47 what i'm saying is it's not always the
0:48:49 case
0:48:50 that the nation itself is the best
0:48:52 protector of itself if it's a small weak
0:48:54 nation with a small population
0:48:56 then sometimes it makes sense for it to
0:48:58 be seeded into a bigger nation which
0:49:00 doesn't have nationalism as its focus
0:49:02 but which can protect it in a better way
0:49:04 basically the point so that the
0:49:05 assumption that
0:49:08 the assumption
0:49:10 that
0:49:10 you need to have a national national
0:49:12 identity and nationalism and the state
0:49:14 centered nationalism is the best way to
0:49:16 preserve language or food or
0:49:19 dress codes or
0:49:20 that's uh can be refuted the second
0:49:23 argument
0:49:25 yes
0:49:27 flourishing yes from flourishing uh
0:49:30 basically
0:49:31 it's it's a kind of tribal argument
0:49:33 again where
0:49:35 they they consider it essential for a
0:49:38 group of people who share
0:49:40 ethnicity
0:49:41 that only within that particular
0:49:43 ethnicity can they
0:49:45 it's the best environment for them as a
0:49:47 people to flourish
0:49:49 and to you know to progress
0:49:51 because everybody's got a national
0:49:53 interest
0:49:55 you know you're you're working for the
0:49:57 collective the tribe
0:49:59 to to progress and uh
0:50:02 but the the obviously the argument
0:50:04 against that would be america because
0:50:06 you have different ethnicities working
0:50:08 together
0:50:09 under the under the flag as i understand
0:50:12 this
0:50:13 and taking to this radical conclusion
0:50:16 this could could uh mean for kind of
0:50:18 isolate economic isolationism now
0:50:20 america the 20s and 30s did have that
0:50:21 program didn't have an america they
0:50:23 called it isolationism literally but now
0:50:26 this kind of thing is less and less
0:50:27 likely because of the globalized world
0:50:29 and because you can't produce everything
0:50:31 in your own nation only a few countries
0:50:32 in the world can produce
0:50:34 everything in its own nation america's
0:50:35 actually one of them to be that can
0:50:36 produce a lot of stuff in this one
0:50:37 nation because of the size of it but not
0:50:39 every country has
0:50:41 a geographic landscape the size of
0:50:42 america not every country can uh can can
0:50:45 implement isolationist economic measures
0:50:48 not every country if it does do that
0:50:50 will even survive as a country
0:50:53 it's impossible
0:50:54 so everything must be kind of seen as in
0:50:56 the context of the
0:50:58 wider world community
0:51:00 um that's absolutely i think you're
0:51:02 right on on your analysis there any
0:51:04 other points on on this argument
0:51:11 okay the third one please
0:51:14 call the argument from the right to
0:51:15 collective self determination uh i think
0:51:17 it's very similar to the previous
0:51:19 argument but it's on a more fundamental
0:51:20 level so the argument is it basically
0:51:23 makes sense for a group of people to
0:51:24 come together and work towards their
0:51:27 collective interest together and build
0:51:28 cultural institutions uh based on
0:51:32 what the interests are so yeah i think
0:51:35 that's the only claim that they seem to
0:51:36 be making here and if that's if that's
0:51:39 the only thing that the
0:51:40 claim that they're making i don't see i
0:51:42 don't see anything wrong with that i
0:51:43 think as muslims we believe in a similar
0:51:45 idea as well right we
0:51:47 believe in muslims coming together and
0:51:50 and protecting our own interests by
0:51:52 having a caliphate's caliphate yeah but
0:51:55 then the question arises
0:51:57 what should
0:51:58 how do we determine what the group
0:52:00 should be what should it be predicated
0:52:01 on should it be biological traits or
0:52:03 should it be a set of values and if so
0:52:05 how do we select the set of values
0:52:07 that's very well said i think it's a
0:52:09 good summary
0:52:10 uh what i will say is that the issue
0:52:12 would come well of tension if the if the
0:52:14 national self-determination project
0:52:16 supersedes the religious one this is
0:52:18 always a problem right because remember
0:52:21 islam did come
0:52:22 to unite the tribes to unite the tribes
0:52:25 under the banner of the hate of
0:52:27 monotheism and remember this is a
0:52:28 rights-based argument rights-based
0:52:30 argument are saying you have an
0:52:31 intrinsic right of this in terms of that
0:52:32 so all of these have assumptions the
0:52:34 question is why do you have any rights
0:52:35 whatsoever what is the what is the
0:52:36 evidence that you have any rights
0:52:37 whatsoever
0:52:38 and so that's these are assumptions that
0:52:40 can easily be kind of um looked at
0:52:43 thirdly i would say that you know when
0:52:44 you talk about self-determination
0:52:46 who's included in that i think you've
0:52:47 kind of touched upon this who would be
0:52:49 included in that who's excluded from it
0:52:51 and then you you ask the question and
0:52:52 who's who's a real citizen
0:52:54 and who's not a real citizen who should
0:52:56 vote maybe
0:52:57 i mean people in this country can't vote
0:52:58 if they're in prison i'm not sure if you
0:53:00 know this they can't vote if they're 16
0:53:01 to 18 although they can have sex at that
0:53:03 time and they can be charged for murder
0:53:05 at that time why not whatever the
0:53:07 question would be so these questions
0:53:08 would be uh there
0:53:10 and so
0:53:13 the right to self-determination
0:53:15 wow you know there you have it these are
0:53:17 the issues with it right so
0:53:18 why should we have a right in the first
0:53:20 place of course this is a difficult one
0:53:22 for anyone who wants to make the
0:53:23 argument but we would say as muslims
0:53:25 obviously the the most important thing
0:53:27 is religious identity it's really as
0:53:28 simple as that we have our own evidences
0:53:30 for that
0:53:31 but otherwise it makes sense for them
0:53:32 secularists atheists it makes sense for
0:53:34 them to say something like this because
0:53:36 once again if the assumption is we work
0:53:38 better in groups than we do as
0:53:39 individuals
0:53:40 then yeah i get i get it i fully
0:53:42 understand it
0:53:44 but obviously from our perspective we
0:53:45 have to kind of uh clarify the position
0:53:47 all right the the fourth uh
0:53:49 argument
0:53:52 so the fourth argument was the argument
0:53:54 from the right to self-defense and to
0:53:57 redress past injustices and essentially
0:53:59 what it was referring to was if you have
0:54:01 a majority group
0:54:03 and a minority group within the same
0:54:04 nation within the same country
0:54:06 and the majority group were oppressing
0:54:08 the minority minority group
0:54:10 that
0:54:11 the
0:54:12 country or the nation would intervene
0:54:13 would say no under the banner of
0:54:15 the nation under the banner of the
0:54:17 country
0:54:18 we are all one and so this shouldn't
0:54:19 take place take for example egypt you
0:54:21 have a minority group of christians and
0:54:23 a majority group of muslims if it was
0:54:25 the case that the muslims were
0:54:27 oppressing the christians
0:54:30 the nation would intervene would say no
0:54:31 under the banner of egypt as being
0:54:34 muslim being egyptians
0:54:36 we are all to be treated the same we all
0:54:38 to have the same
0:54:39 rights
0:54:40 as one another now obviously there's
0:54:42 nothing wrong in that but i think we
0:54:44 have the same
0:54:45 we have the same if not the better
0:54:46 system
0:54:47 in islam
0:54:49 to use your religion unto us as ours
0:54:51 clear-cut you are allowed to practice
0:54:53 your own faith feminism
0:54:56 whoever wishes they can believe and
0:54:58 whoever wishes they can disbelieve
0:55:00 essentially showing tolerance towards
0:55:02 uh
0:55:03 allowance to follow whatever faith you
0:55:04 want
0:55:06 um also it shouldn't be under the banner
0:55:08 of oh under under the nation under the
0:55:10 banner of nationalism under the banner
0:55:12 of being egyptian that's why we should
0:55:14 be fair
0:55:16 it's a humane thing
0:55:18 it's something which is just common
0:55:20 sense humanity
0:55:21 that as humans there should be
0:55:24 this level of respect to one another
0:55:27 and no unknown this is a really powerful
0:55:28 point at that last point you made that i
0:55:30 think all the points you made were very
0:55:31 good but
0:55:33 you know do you know what when we say
0:55:35 well what liberals say not as let's just
0:55:38 say liberals say or many people who
0:55:39 cosmopolitanists or whoever they view
0:55:41 yeah if they say we believe that one
0:55:43 life
0:55:44 all lives are equal
0:55:46 all lives that you've heard this of
0:55:47 course this is the assumption of
0:55:48 liberalism or
0:55:50 created equally and so on
0:55:52 but this is this is where it becomes a
0:55:54 murky water for a nationalist liberal
0:55:57 because for a nationalist liberal if
0:55:58 you're in america
0:56:01 and it really boiled down to it it's
0:56:03 either gonna be your people are gonna
0:56:04 get killed
0:56:05 or the vietnamese are gonna get killed
0:56:08 your people are gonna get killed
0:56:09 well the afghanistan is gonna be killed
0:56:13 we don't find people saying
0:56:15 you know
0:56:16 their lives are more important than ours
0:56:18 this is not the argument that's usually
0:56:20 made when it boils down to it for
0:56:21 example in um
0:56:23 an even stronger example of this
0:56:25 possibly is world war two itself
0:56:28 liberals and others democrats and people
0:56:31 who define themselves in these ways
0:56:33 we're not saying let's stop the war
0:56:35 because especially when i mean there are
0:56:36 targeted civilians i mean i'm not sure
0:56:37 if you guys know dresden and hamburg
0:56:40 dresden and hamburg are two cities towns
0:56:42 in in germany where winston churchill
0:56:45 was
0:56:46 specifically targeting civilian people
0:56:48 the raf
0:56:50 the the the royal air force of england
0:56:53 the campaign was to kill civilians can
0:56:55 you imagine this
0:56:56 the campaign was to kill civilians in
0:56:58 these two uh places
0:57:00 you didn't see too much uproar you
0:57:02 didn't see but why i thought that all
0:57:04 lives were equal well because now they
0:57:06 all have consequentialist reasoning john
0:57:08 rules himself
0:57:10 a liberal one of the most important ones
0:57:12 in fact
0:57:13 he he was he was talking about he spoke
0:57:15 about collateral damage and killing
0:57:16 civilians and stuff like that for
0:57:18 consequentialist uh reasons
0:57:20 and now when you when you when you
0:57:21 combine consequentialism
0:57:24 with nationalism then you have not all
0:57:27 lives are equal
0:57:28 that's the that's the result
0:57:31 let me say that one more time if you
0:57:32 combine nationalism our nation
0:57:35 with consequentialism
0:57:37 you know these people should be
0:57:39 in this case dead in order to save the
0:57:41 majority that is resulting in
0:57:44 uh basically uh inequality
0:57:48 and so it it defies the other values
0:57:51 it defies the values of the liberals in
0:57:54 other spaces
0:57:56 so nationalism and liberalism are
0:57:58 incompatible in many ways
0:58:00 very incompatible obviously we saw in
0:58:02 world war one and two the nationalist
0:58:05 product and the people saw this that's
0:58:07 why george orwell for example very
0:58:08 famous essay that he wrote in 1945 on
0:58:10 nationals and many other people
0:58:13 the nationalist product
0:58:15 okay it led to illiberal results
0:58:18 and that's the reason why they have the
0:58:20 united nations i mean the united nations
0:58:22 was called the league of nations in the
0:58:23 beginning i'm not sure if many of you
0:58:24 know this it was called the league of
0:58:25 nations and then it transferred or
0:58:27 became therefore after 1945 the
0:58:30 united nations and the idea is that
0:58:32 we've learned our lessons from all being
0:58:34 nationalists german nationalism french
0:58:36 nationalism british nationalism and now
0:58:38 we have to decide to work together so
0:58:40 the dominant theme
0:58:42 the the nationalist
0:58:44 dominant theme dampened
0:58:46 and the cosmopolitan
0:58:48 universalist national uh theme started
0:58:51 to become bolstered
0:58:53 but unfortunately now is headed or
0:58:55 spearheaded by the superpower which is
0:58:57 america and so the un
0:58:59 is just an extension of the american
0:59:00 project just like the who is just like
0:59:03 the imf is just like almost all the
0:59:05 world organizations are
0:59:07 so you've replaced nationalism
0:59:10 with a super nationalist program of
0:59:13 american nationalism disguised as
0:59:15 universalism
0:59:17 even big countries like russia and china
0:59:20 in population and in strength physical
0:59:22 strength military strength
0:59:25 are totally
0:59:26 underrepresented we're not talking we
0:59:28 don't you know like chinese or
0:59:29 government programs whatever we'll just
0:59:31 be being open about this they're totally
0:59:34 unrepresented
0:59:36 disproportionately
0:59:37 comparative to the americans
0:59:39 in the united nations security council
0:59:42 and in the un in particular like they're
0:59:44 not the same
0:59:45 and the reason why is because
0:59:47 well they have the
0:59:48 the um
0:59:50 they have the they have the hey man the
0:59:52 the the the hegemony
0:59:54 i was even looking at something uh
0:59:55 yesterday i know this might be off topic
0:59:58 yeah but it is fifa
1:00:01 you know i was looking at how many
1:00:02 nations
1:00:04 why is it that the african nations
1:00:06 have never even reached the semi-finals
1:00:09 it's been going on for years now this
1:00:11 fifa world cup
1:00:14 is it because are we that bad oh right
1:00:16 we're doing okay in africa nation and i
1:00:18 realized that fifa only allows five
1:00:20 african nations to come through
1:00:22 where they allow 13 european nations to
1:00:24 come through
1:00:26 so it gives the uh okay if you have 13
1:00:28 european nations
1:00:30 and five african nations
1:00:32 then obviously it's giving more chance
1:00:33 to europeans to be successful
1:00:35 and they ask why why why no african team
1:00:37 has made it to the semi-finals in the
1:00:39 finals well it's because they don't have
1:00:41 equal representation
1:00:43 look at the egyptian senegal situation
1:00:45 there were the two finalists of the
1:00:47 african nations they have to they have
1:00:48 to face each other off to see which of
1:00:50 the two go to the world cup and they're
1:00:53 the two best nations in their world cups
1:00:54 one of them has to be eliminated
1:00:57 this is not makes no sense they'll ask
1:00:59 why now this is happening so it gives
1:01:01 the false impression
1:01:03 that europeans and white people are
1:01:04 doing better
1:01:06 than the rest of the world well they've
1:01:08 been given less opportunity in the first
1:01:09 place
1:01:10 same thing with noble peace prizes
1:01:13 who who are the nominees
1:01:16 so man now in ethiopia there's a new
1:01:18 he's in war he's the winner of the nobel
1:01:21 peace prize i'm not saying you know i'm
1:01:23 not taking the sign you know whatever
1:01:24 but he's a noble person
1:01:26 what's his name ahmed uh abuja what's
1:01:28 his name he's a nobel peace what's his
1:01:30 name i can't remember his names
1:01:32 this guy is a noble peace and he's in a
1:01:33 civil war it's an ironic situation nice
1:01:37 because he he toes the liberal line
1:01:38 whoever tows the liberal line gets the
1:01:40 prize
1:01:41 so it makes it seem as if europeans keep
1:01:43 winning they're the best
1:01:44 but it's because this is it's a failed
1:01:47 race
1:01:47 and it's american universalism
1:01:50 disguised as americans doing very well
1:01:53 in sports and and in the intellectual
1:01:56 spheres and so on and so forth sometimes
1:01:57 it's true i mean i'm not saying that
1:01:59 they don't do that they're they're doing
1:02:00 really well in science they're doing
1:02:01 muddy and technology they're doing
1:02:03 really well and taking other people's
1:02:04 lands and using their minerals and
1:02:06 they're doing really well and getting
1:02:07 stds as well
1:02:09 and uh and these kinds of diseases or as
1:02:11 carl jung said
1:02:12 they have become
1:02:14 they have become
1:02:16 technological giants but moral dwarfs
1:02:21 all right this is the western project in
1:02:23 a nutshell really but anyway the point
1:02:24 is is that
1:02:26 since the nationalist product project
1:02:28 has somewhat been now transferred
1:02:31 to the universalist globalized american
1:02:33 superpower project
1:02:35 uh
1:02:36 which still makes it seem like all these
1:02:38 other countries have self-determination
1:02:40 it just makes the results
1:02:41 the global results look skewed look at
1:02:44 the imf look how many look how many
1:02:46 loans are given to african countries
1:02:49 african countries right which they can
1:02:51 never pay back they have to pay them
1:02:52 back over 100 years or something
1:02:54 ridiculous
1:02:55 you know it's it's a different kind it's
1:02:57 a pernicious
1:02:58 and malignant type of
1:03:01 hegemony it's the new world order
1:03:04 and this is no conspiracy uh theory
1:03:07 what's the last thing
1:03:08 that we want to
1:03:10 speak about here argument from equality
1:03:12 he wants to cover that is it
1:03:14 you yeah so this argument is basically
1:03:17 saying that uh you're gonna have
1:03:18 minority groups of people
1:03:20 and uh in the interest of basically of
1:03:23 promoting liberal neutrality um the
1:03:25 majority should make provisions uh
1:03:27 should cater for those minority
1:03:29 populations uh
1:03:31 which you know on the face of it i guess
1:03:33 is not the worst argument uh that you
1:03:35 know if people are in a precarious
1:03:37 situation that they should be
1:03:39 specifically catered for you can make an
1:03:40 argument for that because in this case
1:03:42 they're basing that on liberal
1:03:42 neutrality which is where we get all of
1:03:44 the questions previously about about
1:03:45 values and that type of thing um and
1:03:48 also
1:03:48 the second objection would be that
1:03:50 nationalism isn't a necessary uh
1:03:52 condition uh to have that type of thing
1:03:55 so you could ask you could request that
1:03:56 you have your specific interests catered
1:03:59 for without expressing that in a
1:04:00 nationalistic way beautiful excellent i
1:04:03 think i like that and this what you just
1:04:04 said at the end there is something which
1:04:05 you can say for all the arguments
1:04:08 that is
1:04:09 as if they are saying nationalism is the
1:04:10 only way you can achieve this and that's
1:04:12 an assumption that can never be
1:04:13 justified because there are other
1:04:14 collectivist products
1:04:16 if you're all you're really saying is
1:04:18 collectivism is the way has these
1:04:20 benefits okay collectivism it doesn't
1:04:22 have to be based on nationalistic lines
1:04:25 and the last one do you want to cover
1:04:26 that as well oh yeah but um just to add
1:04:28 one more thing on to the previous point
1:04:29 as well is that when you do make that
1:04:31 argument to say that you know we should
1:04:32 have a specific type of thing because of
1:04:35 us because of us and our nation then it
1:04:37 lends very easily to like a race-based
1:04:39 argument because then you've you've sort
1:04:41 of distinguished yourself yeah i'm happy
1:04:43 on the basis of your race um in any case
1:04:46 the final argument was basically the
1:04:47 argument from success yeah which is
1:04:48 basically that when people have been put
1:04:50 into nations they have been more
1:04:51 successful
1:04:53 think that's such a bad argument i don't
1:04:54 know yeah yeah it's better than being in
1:04:57 anarchy in terms of achieving yeah yeah
1:04:59 yeah of course but then it's it's to say
1:05:01 as if that um being uh
1:05:03 i guess being like every nation state is
1:05:05 going to be successful yeah and there's
1:05:07 plenty of failed nation states exactly
1:05:08 that means that you're giving preference
1:05:10 to nations which have more population
1:05:12 more technology more resources
1:05:14 ask a question
1:05:17 why is europe
1:05:19 although they have been we talked about
1:05:21 how it's not it's misappropriated
1:05:22 sometimes and mis
1:05:25 interpreted or the skewed sometimes we
1:05:27 talked about the nobel priest prize and
1:05:28 all this kind of thing but in other
1:05:29 senses we can't deny that europe has
1:05:32 succeeded economically technologically
1:05:34 and scientifically the question is why
1:05:36 is that the case and when was that the
1:05:38 case
1:05:39 when did the muslims for example the
1:05:41 superpower of islam
1:05:43 start diminishing when did that when did
1:05:44 the european project start to increase
1:05:47 the answer to that question
1:05:48 a lot of it is actually based on natural
1:05:50 resources
1:05:51 so for example in britain in the uk
1:05:53 you had something called the industrial
1:05:54 revolution there's three things you
1:05:56 should be very well aware of
1:05:58 in the european context
1:06:00 number one is the renaissance period
1:06:03 okay number two is the enlightenment
1:06:05 period
1:06:06 i would put to that as well add to that
1:06:08 the scientific revolution
1:06:10 and the industrial revolution these four
1:06:12 things you need to know about that okay
1:06:13 you need to know what i'm gonna say that
1:06:14 one time the renaissance period the
1:06:16 enlightenment period
1:06:18 the scientific revolution and the
1:06:20 industrial revolution
1:06:22 if you want to add a fifth it will be
1:06:24 the discovery of new land which in this
1:06:26 case was the americas
1:06:28 which
1:06:29 conveniently some of it was referred to
1:06:30 as new found land if you go on the map
1:06:32 now
1:06:33 there's a if you look at it like a
1:06:34 canada map there's actually a
1:06:36 patch on the map called newfoundland
1:06:38 because they found the new newly
1:06:40 why do you think new york is called new
1:06:41 york because we have a york here in
1:06:43 england and they just made it called new
1:06:45 york the new one
1:06:46 there's london here there's london and
1:06:48 canada why is that because they just
1:06:49 copy names
1:06:51 they found land then they went there and
1:06:52 they just you know anyway these five
1:06:54 things are important because
1:06:56 some of those things are circumstantial
1:06:58 some of them are borrowed some of them
1:07:00 are is to do with the good work of the
1:07:02 european people in a certain time
1:07:03 collaborative work and some of it is
1:07:05 exploitative
1:07:07 so for example
1:07:09 if we're looking at the if we're looking
1:07:10 at the scientific revolution i'm not
1:07:12 sure if you know that i've done some
1:07:13 work on this in fact
1:07:14 you'll find in the 16th century
1:07:18 um in the 16th century when the
1:07:19 scientific revolution they they say is
1:07:21 when when galileo you know
1:07:24 found the heliocentric model they start
1:07:25 the clock
1:07:26 then but really if you look at the time
1:07:29 before and after that time it was
1:07:30 because of weaponry ballistic weapons
1:07:33 and stuff like that they were looking
1:07:35 for things to
1:07:39 science became a big thing basically in
1:07:41 universities it was never called science
1:07:42 before it was called natural philosophy
1:07:44 so it only started to become called
1:07:46 science in the 16th to 17th century
1:07:49 and the reason why it became where
1:07:50 science became departments and started
1:07:53 to expand is because they were looking
1:07:54 for ballistic missiles and weaponry
1:07:57 and because weaponry decides to expand
1:07:59 and they say necessity is the mother of
1:08:01 all invention i will uh in arabic that
1:08:04 says a little hajjis
1:08:06 you know necessity is the mother of all
1:08:08 invention so because to do with war
1:08:12 science actually really took a
1:08:13 bolstering when
1:08:15 they decided okay we need this for the
1:08:17 progress of our nation
1:08:20 in regards to the newfound lands it was
1:08:22 because of their adventures european
1:08:24 adventures and you may have known this
1:08:26 or studied this in america in a study in
1:08:28 school
1:08:29 that you know when the expeditions took
1:08:31 place and they went and you know
1:08:32 elizabethan
1:08:33 who died 1603
1:08:36 you know she decided to send this person
1:08:38 and that person afterwards they found
1:08:39 the land and they literally settled
1:08:40 there
1:08:41 it was because of their explorative
1:08:43 efforts but then what happened
1:08:44 afterwards was exploitative uh
1:08:46 westwood expansion and so on and then
1:08:49 we're talking about industrial
1:08:50 revolution in england the industrial
1:08:52 revolution started because one of the
1:08:53 main reasons because i'm not sure if you
1:08:55 know this but there's coal in britain
1:08:57 coal
1:08:59 coal britain is a coal rich country
1:09:01 and because then they started doing the
1:09:03 steam train all this kind of literally
1:09:04 because of what was under their ground
1:09:06 you don't have coal in all the countries
1:09:07 in the world but you do have it in
1:09:09 britain so they were able to do steam
1:09:11 trains and all these kinds of things
1:09:13 but the nationalist project now
1:09:16 and the enlightenment period to be
1:09:17 honest with you they didn't really
1:09:18 contribute anything by way of technology
1:09:20 it was probably the weakest of all four
1:09:21 things i've mentioned or five things
1:09:23 i've mentioned because they had all
1:09:24 these ideologies they brought out but it
1:09:26 made it seem as if these ideologies
1:09:28 coincided with these scientific progress
1:09:30 and it made it seem like there was a
1:09:31 correlation which should there is no
1:09:32 correlation i mean there is no causation
1:09:34 there might be a correlation but there's
1:09:35 no causation
1:09:37 but the point is is that when when you
1:09:39 think about it
1:09:40 these five things which meant that the
1:09:42 western european countries and their
1:09:43 extensions which in this case was
1:09:45 america
1:09:46 uh these things which took place
1:09:50 combined with
1:09:52 the fate of the fall of the ottoman
1:09:54 empire
1:09:55 which really was already happening uh a
1:09:57 few i don't want to go to expansive
1:09:59 detail but it was happening in the 18th
1:10:01 to 19th century
1:10:03 but really started happening in the 19
1:10:04 mid 19th century where something called
1:10:06 the tandem happened in turkey in the
1:10:08 ottomans
1:10:09 is when they the parliament and so on
1:10:11 they become westernized
1:10:12 and then in the early 1900s
1:10:15 unfortunately
1:10:16 honestly this is a serious thing
1:10:18 nationalism could be not could be argued
1:10:21 to be historically to be the number one
1:10:22 contributor for the fall of the ottoman
1:10:24 empire
1:10:25 and therefore the disintegration of all
1:10:27 the nations within it
1:10:28 because i mean you've heard of florence
1:10:30 of arabia and all these kind of things
1:10:32 the ottomans the turks you are turkish
1:10:34 these are arabs you should be
1:10:36 celebrating your turkish identity and
1:10:38 going against these and they literally
1:10:39 went into clash the arabs and turks the
1:10:42 moment arabs and turks went into clash
1:10:43 with one another it signaled the end of
1:10:45 the ottoman empire
1:10:47 that combined with the fact that you had
1:10:48 now leadership of ataturk
1:10:51 in the early 20th century
1:10:53 and he emphasized the national project
1:10:54 over and above the islam project it
1:10:56 literally destroyed the power that all
1:10:58 that turkey will never be the same again
1:11:00 or it could be and we don't know allah
1:11:02 adam maybe in the future but it's it's
1:11:04 you know it suffered majorly
1:11:06 nationalism was one of the biggest
1:11:07 things that destroyed the the the
1:11:10 ottoman empire because they put what
1:11:12 they put the national identity above and
1:11:14 beyond the religious one it was the
1:11:16 biggest mistake they made in their life
1:11:18 in the 15th and 16th or 17th century
1:11:20 turkey was equivalent to usa in power
1:11:23 now it's equivalent to
1:11:24 it's not even equivalent to japan sorry
1:11:25 to say it's a strong nation yes but it's
1:11:27 nowhere near what it was before nothing
1:11:29 compared to it islam gave every nation
1:11:32 that ever embraced it its highest
1:11:34 successes full stop period
1:11:38 if the arabian peninsula did not have
1:11:40 islam inside of it what would it be they
1:11:42 would be the least successful
1:11:43 civilization in history
1:11:47 think about it if islam did not enter
1:11:49 the
1:11:49 we're doing a bit of counterfactual
1:11:50 history but if islam did not enter the
1:11:52 arabian peninsula it would be the least
1:11:54 successful civilization in human history
1:11:56 sand dwellers the people barefooted
1:12:00 people
1:12:01 jahil
1:12:02 they know a bit of poetry and
1:12:04 they fight each other
1:12:06 that's it that's what the arabs would
1:12:07 have been would have been the most
1:12:09 failed people in history
1:12:11 the fact that islam came in and they
1:12:13 became they thought of the bigger
1:12:14 picture literally let's include
1:12:16 everybody this made them the most
1:12:17 success one of the most successful
1:12:19 civilizations in human history
1:12:21 by the admission of all those who
1:12:24 uh study human civilization
1:12:27 and the everything else look at the
1:12:29 african nations
1:12:31 mali one of the greatest most rich
1:12:33 people of all human history was a muslim
1:12:36 musa mansa
1:12:38 he would never have been given such
1:12:39 title if he wasn't if you didn't think
1:12:40 of things in islamic sense
1:12:43 many of the empires
1:12:45 the african empires the north african
1:12:48 ones the west african ones the central
1:12:50 african ones were muslim ones the
1:12:51 biggest and the strongest of all time
1:12:53 the strongest that africa has been has
1:12:55 been under islam
1:12:57 the strongest as the the turks have been
1:12:59 has been under islam the strongest arabs
1:13:01 have been has been under islam and the
1:13:04 weakest they have been is when they
1:13:05 decided to leave the islamic identity in
1:13:08 favor of the nationalistic one
1:13:10 that's the fault that is that's the
1:13:11 reality of the situation that's honestly
1:13:13 the truth
1:13:14 and they will not be and this is the
1:13:15 truth
1:13:16 i can see no way that any nation in the
1:13:18 world can take
1:13:20 on
1:13:21 this great superpower the europeans and
1:13:23 extensions unless they go back to this
1:13:26 they go back to this imagine if you had
1:13:28 a country let's be honest
1:13:30 imagine if you had a country of pakistan
1:13:31 and uh and pakistan and turkey
1:13:34 and egypt and nigeria nigeria is like 60
1:13:37 muslim
1:13:38 okay
1:13:39 and all of these countries together
1:13:40 imagine that country
1:13:42 just imagine that country what would it
1:13:44 look like
1:13:44 population of 800 million
1:13:47 this many
1:13:48 that is the new america all they need to
1:13:51 do is come together
1:13:52 but we are so foolish and we have been
1:13:54 held back
1:13:55 by our nationalistic
1:13:57 tendencies
1:13:59 that it's been the number one
1:14:01 deteriorating factor for the muslim
1:14:03 empire and the muslim people imagine if
1:14:05 these countries traded together if they
1:14:06 had special deals together
1:14:09 indonesia is the heartland the
1:14:11 demographic heartland of
1:14:13 of islam
1:14:15 the number two country in population
1:14:16 imagine you had a country comprising of
1:14:18 malaysia indonesia and nigeria or at
1:14:20 least a big part of it
1:14:22 egypt
1:14:23 you know turkey pakistan just these
1:14:25 countries i'm not even mentioning all
1:14:26 the 50 or 60 muslim majority countries
1:14:28 imagine these countries coming together
1:14:30 right then we have something else
1:14:33 there we have something else
1:14:35 aki i'm saying that honestly the
1:14:37 national project will be something
1:14:39 completely different
1:14:42 now i want to finalize this discussion
1:14:44 here today with the hadith of the
1:14:45 prophet muhammad
1:14:46 okay
1:14:48 so the first one is uh there is no
1:14:49 preference of an arab
1:14:52 over another arab
1:14:53 this is you know there was one i had a
1:14:55 history teacher
1:14:57 one time he was like i don't i don't
1:14:59 know of any man before such and such a
1:15:01 man who was not racist
1:15:03 and he was shouting and screaming i said
1:15:05 i'm going to leave him i'm not going to
1:15:06 even intervene but look at his hadith
1:15:08 it's the most anti-racist
1:15:10 statement made by any ancient religion
1:15:13 period you will not find the same way
1:15:15 like this in the bible you will not find
1:15:17 the statement like this in the talmud in
1:15:18 the old testament the new testament in
1:15:20 any book i've challenged anyone i have
1:15:22 challenged them repeatedly for over 10
1:15:24 years 10 years no one has found anything
1:15:26 like this anywhere else in any religious
1:15:28 book period which is what
1:15:32 he said there is no preference over an
1:15:33 arab over a non-arab or a non-arab over
1:15:35 an arab
1:15:37 or a white person over a black one
1:15:40 or a black person over a white one
1:15:41 except by piety in fact all people are
1:15:44 from adam and adam is from
1:15:47 torah really like dust
1:15:49 this is subhanallah like you will not
1:15:52 find
1:15:53 such a big picture
1:15:56 meta ethic
1:15:58 on on race ethnicity and nationality
1:16:00 than this
1:16:02 the most harsh the prophet muhammad
1:16:05 ever
1:16:06 and the most harsh language he's ever
1:16:07 used was on tribalism
1:16:11 and i'm going to say what he said
1:16:13 when he said
1:16:14 one of them
1:16:16 one of them was being very tribalistic
1:16:18 you know
1:16:32 used to mention their fathers a lot and
1:16:35 you know too much it was too much
1:16:38 and allah is saying you should mention
1:16:39 allah the way you mention your lineage
1:16:41 basically
1:16:44 or even stronger than that
1:16:46 but this guy was talking too much as if
1:16:47 like he's better because of where he's
1:16:49 from
1:16:50 and the prophet saw and said why don't
1:16:51 you go and buy the penis of your father
1:16:55 or
1:16:57 go and hen means peters
1:16:59 go and bite it
1:17:01 meaning this you've got nothing to do
1:17:03 with that it's an accident of birth
1:17:07 yeah it's an accident of birth
1:17:10 it is an accident of birth that you came
1:17:11 from this family of these people and why
1:17:13 are you making it into something else
1:17:14 and look at these other hadith
1:17:18 do you want to read it
1:17:21 so you know masha'allah
1:17:24 this these ones in bold please
1:17:32 we'll get the harder to read the hadith
1:17:35 the ones in bold and then translate them
1:17:37 if you can as well because you've been
1:17:38 quite silent today i'm going to have to
1:17:40 get you you know
1:17:42 i also don't make a mistake
1:18:10 okay can you can you
1:18:12 translate it there's no translation
1:18:14 there okay cool yeah so whoever dies
1:18:16 under
1:18:17 uh a banner supporting
1:18:19 nationalism
1:18:24 foreign
1:18:29 under nationalism then he has died a
1:18:30 death of ignorance yeah so this is not
1:18:32 necessarily nationalism of modern
1:18:34 nationalism
1:18:35 is really
1:18:36 partisanship based on tribal i mean
1:18:38 that's why it was it's partisanship and
1:18:40 in this case it was based on the tribes
1:18:42 but it can easily be extended easily be
1:18:44 extended because if it's a tribe then
1:18:46 really a nation is a major tribe it's a
1:18:47 big tribe
1:18:48 so he's saying that if you fight for
1:18:49 your country
1:18:51 yeah if you fight for your country and
1:18:52 you're not fighting for your religion
1:18:53 then you're going to die at the death of
1:18:55 jehelia
1:18:56 which is
1:18:58 i believe this is the reason why we lost
1:19:00 the 1967 war
1:19:03 uh in egypt it was a humiliating defeat
1:19:06 gem
1:19:08 and this kind of thing you were fighting
1:19:10 you were fighting for egypt egypt didn't
1:19:13 help you and you didn't help yourselves
1:19:15 but when you fight knowing that you're
1:19:17 going to go to jannah you can be more
1:19:18 courageous you can go and fight properly
1:19:20 you're not fighting for a nation a
1:19:21 plastic nation that's going to not help
1:19:23 you in the grave
1:19:24 you're you're fighting for a meta ethic
1:19:27 you're fighting for something deeper the
1:19:29 prophet explicitly told us whoever
1:19:30 fights for their country i.e not for
1:19:32 allah it's not jihad that's not jihad
1:19:35 you cannot even call that jihad
1:19:37 it says only jihad if you want
1:19:39 kalimatullah allah to be
1:19:42 that's only jihad where you want allah's
1:19:44 word to be uppermost that's your head
1:19:46 everything else is not your head
1:19:47 that's not jihad
1:19:49 that's something else that you can call
1:19:50 it and you'll die actually
1:19:53 like has a like pre-islamic ignorance
1:19:56 the death of someone who died in
1:19:58 pre-islamic ignorance
1:20:00 meaning you didn't you didn't you didn't
1:20:01 fight for the right reasons and you
1:20:02 didn't die for the right you died in
1:20:03 vain in fact
1:20:05 can you imagine that
1:20:06 if you're fighting for that reason for
1:20:07 it so you can be a i'm doing it for my
1:20:09 country that's the wrong reason to fight
1:20:10 in this religion
1:20:12 for self-defense or otherwise
1:20:13 can you see the next one
1:20:16 there's another have these
1:20:20 just one word have to translate yeah
1:20:22 yeah i'll go reversal
1:20:29 so this is this is an important factor
1:20:32 uh once again we're not saying you can't
1:20:34 love your nation in islam you can you
1:20:36 can love your nation you can love the
1:20:37 country you can love the language you
1:20:38 can love the food you can love the
1:20:39 people you can love the women you can
1:20:40 love the men
1:20:43 yeah i said the woman the
1:20:44 first and some people have this uh
1:20:47 proclivities but what i'm saying is
1:20:49 that's not a problem the problem is is
1:20:50 when you make that higher than islam if
1:20:52 that becomes higher than islam that is
1:20:54 almost verging on cover
1:20:56 it is almost virgin you have to erase
1:20:58 that we have to reorient that
1:21:04 okay ready
1:21:06 i don't know
1:21:08 does anyone know
1:21:11 why he's doing that yeah
1:21:14 like you know you're mentioning the
1:21:15 ayats from like one last thing you know
1:21:17 from his science is that you have these
1:21:18 differences in your your skin colors and
1:21:20 your your languages and that type of
1:21:22 thing and a lot of this stuff goes back
1:21:24 to tell hey doesn't it about everything
1:21:25 being for allah and so like you're
1:21:27 saying with jihad like when you're
1:21:28 fighting if you're fighting for other
1:21:29 than allah then it's a mistake
1:21:31 similarly if you have these things like
1:21:32 you know differences in your skin colors
1:21:35 tongues that type of thing which is
1:21:36 those are signs like signs are supposed
1:21:38 to point towards things they supposed to
1:21:39 point towards allah
1:21:40 so somebody takes those things and uses
1:21:42 it to point towards their own ego
1:21:43 to walk around and to say you know i'm
1:21:45 this and i'm that because because i come
1:21:47 from this you know yeah you're not
1:21:48 giving allah the heck that he deserves
1:21:50 in creating those things and yeah you
1:21:51 know enriching human experience and you
1:21:53 should and by the way i just want to
1:21:54 mention something important
1:21:56 we should be we should be aware of our
1:21:58 lineage i mean i mean it's not a bad
1:22:00 thing to be aware of your li i'm very
1:22:01 bad at that i don't even know past my
1:22:03 grandad i don't know anyone yeah
1:22:05 unfortunately
1:22:06 we should know a lineage the sahaba they
1:22:08 knew who their lineage was the ones who
1:22:10 were connected to the prophet they knew
1:22:11 that they were connected to the prophet
1:22:13 there's nothing wrong with any of that
1:22:15 yes
1:22:17 and so on to know who your father is in
1:22:19 particular but that can be extended
1:22:20 right
1:22:22 however if you think you're superior on
1:22:25 the basis of that that's what the
1:22:26 problem is
1:22:27 and there's another important factor
1:22:29 which is that if any you know when you
1:22:31 curse when people sometimes curse arabs
1:22:34 and this is a very dangerous thing not
1:22:36 because i'm arab
1:22:39 because the prophet muhammad was arab
1:22:41 and this can actually lead to kuffar
1:22:43 and some scholars said it is kufa you'll
1:22:45 be surprised there's some very heavy
1:22:47 statements on this
1:22:48 because anything which the prophet is
1:22:49 you cannot attack
1:22:52 like you'll find some feminist extreme
1:22:53 to say i hate all men what the prophet
1:22:54 was a man i hate arabs the prophet
1:22:56 wasn't arab
1:22:57 he was an arab he had the lineage which
1:22:59 is arab and there are some nations in
1:23:00 particular which have antagonistic
1:23:02 attitudes towards arab people
1:23:04 for example iran
1:23:06 they have antagonistic not all of the
1:23:08 iranians not all the fascists but you
1:23:09 know them you've seen them they're
1:23:11 nationalists
1:23:12 they'll say you know i wasn't i was in a
1:23:14 barber
1:23:14 you've i told you the story and they
1:23:16 knew that cause i arab actually and
1:23:18 there's a iranian guy sitting next to me
1:23:20 in the chair and he's like bashing arab
1:23:22 smashing them
1:23:23 i said to him and then i realized that
1:23:25 you know he's a
1:23:26 he was very angry at the conquest
1:23:28 you know the islamic conquest into
1:23:30 persia
1:23:31 i said so listen you know this and that
1:23:33 and we went into a discussion but the
1:23:34 point is is that you know
1:23:36 the prophet sallam was arab he was and
1:23:38 he had a lineage going back to adnan at
1:23:41 least that we know of and go back to
1:23:42 ibrahim
1:23:43 so this is an important lineage it's an
1:23:46 important is and allah he chose that for
1:23:48 the prophet muhammad he chose that
1:23:49 lineage for the prophet
1:23:51 he didn't choose any other lineage
1:23:53 and it was the attitude of bani israel
1:23:55 not all of them but some of them
1:23:57 obviously some of them became muslim as
1:23:58 well but some of them that we can't
1:24:01 accept this man as a prophet because
1:24:02 he's arab
1:24:04 that was the reason look at sofia been
1:24:06 to
1:24:06 her father uh
1:24:08 yeah he didn't accept the prophet
1:24:11 and he hit his own daughter who then
1:24:13 became ironically the prophet's wife
1:24:16 because
1:24:17 of the dream that she had which is that
1:24:18 she saw the son coming into her lap uh
1:24:20 in the in the hadith
1:24:22 and that dream she he knew what it meant
1:24:24 he was a dream interpreter he knew it
1:24:25 meant that it's going to be a prophet
1:24:27 that's going to come from their tribe
1:24:28 not ours and he he does a full-time
1:24:31 state of the dream
1:24:34 and so
1:24:35 so he was very upset look at you'll see
1:24:37 even in the old testament to this day
1:24:40 the way they describe arab people or in
1:24:42 fact the lineage of uh ishmael like wild
1:24:45 donkeys and stuff like that you can see
1:24:46 the rill and the anger and the
1:24:47 resentment they have
1:24:49 because it's like a
1:24:50 it is like a competitive tribe
1:24:53 they both come from abraham right
1:24:54 we can't have the attitude we don't have
1:24:56 the attitude with them we don't have the
1:24:58 attitude with anybody from bani israel
1:25:00 in fact when the prophet muhammed when
1:25:03 some of the women the the muhammadin
1:25:05 were disparaging
1:25:07 what did he say he said he tells them
1:25:09 that i am from the same lineage as
1:25:11 haroon
1:25:12 and musa
1:25:14 in particular i think it was actually
1:25:16 so he was saying
1:25:17 my lineage is the same religious the
1:25:19 prophets
1:25:20 that's why we have to be careful some
1:25:22 people have very
1:25:24 anti-ethnically jewish ideas what can be
1:25:26 referred to now as anti-semitism this is
1:25:28 not actually allowed
1:25:30 because the prophets came from that line
1:25:32 well we say all these all these uh jews
1:25:33 are what we talk about we say jews
1:25:36 what oh well jesus was that
1:25:38 moses was that david was that solomon
1:25:41 was that we all believe in those
1:25:42 prophets we can't attack these
1:25:44 these sacred lineages
1:25:46 yeah go ahead please
1:26:21 so can you translate yep so a man from
1:26:24 the immigrants
1:26:25 uh so from the muhajiri kicked an ansari
1:26:27 man the ansari man said o ansar help and
1:26:30 then the muhajiri said oh oh the
1:26:33 muharram the immigrants
1:26:35 help allah's mention
1:26:38 and said what is this
1:26:40 which is a characteristic of the period
1:26:42 of ignorance
1:26:43 they said oh allah's messenger a man
1:26:44 from the muhajiri kicked one of the
1:26:46 answers allah's messenger said leave
1:26:49 this call for for indeed it is a
1:26:52 detestable thing
1:26:53 beautiful and so what does this show
1:26:57 uh obviously this shows that
1:26:59 yeah instead of you know thinking about
1:27:01 their tribes or
1:27:02 where they're from they should be taking
1:27:04 into consideration the bigger ban of
1:27:05 islam right yeah
1:27:08 and uh
1:27:09 you know that thing that you told me
1:27:10 about his name is ross rogers as it was
1:27:12 his name i don't know
1:27:13 was he the one who made the point about
1:27:15 the fact that islam became as successful
1:27:17 as it is
1:27:18 because of this um meta tribe that he
1:27:21 called the umma and this guy who was a
1:27:23 can you tell us about that a little bit
1:27:25 i can't no no no
1:27:26 you're mixing two different things okay
1:27:28 fine interesting fine fine i'd rather
1:27:30 use references
1:27:31 i mean the book is general ship of
1:27:32 muhammad sallam
1:27:34 and uh he wrote about
1:27:36 the prophet sallam's brilliant military
1:27:39 mind what he did he created the super
1:27:41 tribe the ummah but i don't want to
1:27:43 misquote himself for everybody else they
1:27:44 can read the book but you'll definitely
1:27:46 read it and see that
1:27:48 how could a basically a man in the
1:27:50 desert without military training without
1:27:52 going through what napoleon went through
1:27:54 could be a source of
1:27:56 military study in history that
1:27:58 historians actually studying him
1:28:00 and you know that's why he is the
1:28:03 greatest general from an islamic
1:28:04 perspective and all of the generals that
1:28:07 subsequently came after him so khalid
1:28:09 waleed or umar mukhtar they would be
1:28:12 disciples of him so it's an amazing way
1:28:15 of looking at it but there's other books
1:28:16 as well which i think a lot of people
1:28:18 would agree that you've read a lot of
1:28:20 these things these titles and stuff they
1:28:21 talk about the fact that the great
1:28:23 success of the prophet sallam has been
1:28:24 because of his
1:28:26 the fact that he was able to merge all
1:28:28 these tribes into one
1:28:30 yeah so
1:28:31 there's the whole discussion about how
1:28:33 he made this super tribe yes right so in
1:28:35 arabia your tribe like if you imagine
1:28:39 you got arsenal right so you've got
1:28:40 arsenal playing who's their rivals i
1:28:42 don't know much about football who
1:28:44 tottenham no no their rivals are london
1:28:45 tigers actually
1:28:47 so so uh you got arsenal right and
1:28:50 imagine arsenal just lost the match
1:28:52 against tottenham and it's just uh the
1:28:55 last minute at that point a tottenham
1:28:58 fan in the middle of the arsenal fans
1:29:00 raises up his flag right or his t-shirt
1:29:03 or whatever or that team you can imagine
1:29:05 the reaction right you can imagine if
1:29:07 they're all drunk right the arabian
1:29:09 peninsula was more tribalistic than any
1:29:11 football fans today and in that the
1:29:13 prophet salla managed to from all these
1:29:15 tribes create a new identity which had
1:29:18 nothing to do with ethnic background so
1:29:20 yeah there's some really amazing things
1:29:22 this is coming from people that are
1:29:23 antagonistic towards islam and they
1:29:25 don't have a favorable or charitable
1:29:26 understanding of it it depends on the
1:29:28 author but ross rogers is looking at it
1:29:30 from an academic point of view there are
1:29:32 others who are actually anti-islam and
1:29:34 they've said you know amazing things but
1:29:36 we have to understand they'll also
1:29:38 criticize him
1:29:40 militarily on certain things but we
1:29:42 believe in those things because of
1:29:43 revelation but they're using today's uh
1:29:46 standards of military genius they would
1:29:48 say well he could have done his supply
1:29:50 line like this or he could have done
1:29:52 that but we know that these things are
1:29:54 subjective even in military circle and
1:29:57 in terms of academic discussion so in
1:29:59 these books you find positivity and
1:30:01 negativity in terms of his military
1:30:02 analysis but overall you do find just
1:30:05 like napoleon just like other historical
1:30:07 figures that he is a person of major
1:30:09 interest in history because it was the
1:30:11 most successful empire in human history
1:30:14 fantastic i think you should definitely
1:30:15 do a video on this by the way i'll i'll
1:30:16 join you and ask you some more questions
1:30:17 on your channel thank you for coming
1:30:18 today by the way and that will be it for
1:30:21 today we've covered uh
1:30:23 a lot of ground i think we've covered a
1:30:25 lot of ground we've
1:30:27 defined the nationalism we've defined
1:30:28 the problems with it we looked at the
1:30:30 major arguments for and against it and
1:30:32 then we looked at the islamic stance on
1:30:33 it more in depth and uh this has been
1:30:35 the last session so um
1:30:37 uh i'm going to say this not just about
1:30:39 the episode but about the entire series
1:30:42 that with this we conclude with