Contradictory Expectations of some 'Muslim Feminists' in Marriage - Naima B Robert- MH Podcast p2 (2021-09-23) #

0:00:00 genoa is like i i find the most
0:00:02 pernicious
0:00:03 and most unacceptable type
0:00:06 of feminist as a muslim feminist do you
0:00:08 know why
0:00:09 because a true feminist like of a second
0:00:12 wave
0:00:12 complexion or
0:00:14 background orientation
0:00:17 she would
0:00:18 everything's 50 50 domestic housework is
0:00:20 50 50. yeah true and also finances are
0:00:23 50 50. xyz
0:00:25 yeah everything is that is what the
0:00:27 ideology says
0:00:29 yeah negozi who wrote the feminist
0:00:30 manifesto said everything should be
0:00:32 equal except for breastfeeding and she
0:00:33 gave that only there's the only
0:00:34 exception in her little pamphlet book
0:00:36 that she wrote which is not really an
0:00:38 academic book anyway but it's popular so
0:00:40 she the everything should be 5050. no
0:00:42 problem if everything is 50-50 which
0:00:45 means i'm not going to be putting
0:00:46 extracting half of my resources for you
0:00:49 i'm i'm going to save money i don't need
0:00:51 to do this i don't need to protect you
0:00:52 the fact protection is 50 50. if someone
0:00:54 comes in a burglar i don't need to
0:00:55 protect so on all about something 50 50.
0:00:58 if i'm if i'm with a feminist i would
0:01:00 rather be
0:01:02 yeah put a religious if we're just
0:01:04 talking just based on the the the the
0:01:07 domesticity or lack thereof or the
0:01:10 interactivity a domestic interactivity
0:01:12 and transactional nature of the domestic
0:01:14 environment between man and woman i
0:01:16 would rather be with a feminist than i
0:01:17 would be with a muslim feminist
0:01:19 like a christian i'd rather do a
0:01:21 christian family or something why
0:01:22 because at least she has a sense of
0:01:25 consistent self-consistency everything
0:01:27 is 50 50. but the muslim feminist she
0:01:30 wants to take the resources which means
0:01:32 she wants to not make it 50 50 when it
0:01:34 comes to finances and work and
0:01:36 protection plus so she wants to take all
0:01:39 of the things her entire islamic
0:01:40 entitlements plus she wants to have her
0:01:42 feministic entitlements so she wants a
0:01:44 double entitlement
0:01:46 that woman is a leech that woman is just
0:01:48 a leech and she needs to be called out
0:01:50 in the community people like yourself
0:01:52 need to say listen don't reach off the
0:01:53 man you choose what you want to be you
0:01:55 want to be a muslim this is islam you
0:01:57 know this feminism is different and you
0:01:59 can't mix and if you want to be both
0:02:01 then you're going to end up being a
0:02:02 leech a charity you're a charity you are
0:02:04 a charity you might as well go to oxfam
0:02:06 and put your hands out like this this is
0:02:08 what you should do what would you
0:02:10 respect i'm sorry i'm going out but this
0:02:12 the entitled nature of some people that
0:02:14 want both if you if you want 50 50 then
0:02:17 you have to provide 50 50.
0:02:19 right right you do you see the point
0:02:21 here yeah no i totally get your point
0:02:23 and i think it's interesting it's
0:02:24 anecdotally again um the the experience
0:02:28 of of brothers kind of on these
0:02:30 matrimonial apps etc is pretty much what
0:02:33 you're saying so i'm i'm hearing again
0:02:35 and again about sisters who
0:02:38 want the traditional benefits exactly i
0:02:40 don't want the traditional
0:02:41 responsibilities
0:02:43 this is beautiful they want the
0:02:44 tradition what i was trying to say for
0:02:46 like four or five minutes you said it in
0:02:47 like one sentence they want the
0:02:50 traditional benefits but they do not
0:02:52 want the traditional responsibilities
0:02:54 they don't want that role so a sister
0:02:56 will say islamically you have to provide
0:02:59 for me you have to pay off my car you
0:03:01 have to do this you know i i like this i
0:03:04 like this i like that financially and if
0:03:06 you can't provide financially this
0:03:07 conversation is over okay it's over it
0:03:10 doesn't matter the sister can be she's
0:03:12 got three kids she could be 45 years old
0:03:14 and i know you know people don't like
0:03:16 this but some of us and i'm gonna say us
0:03:20 because i'm not pointing fingers here
0:03:22 i'm looking in the mirror
0:03:23 okay
0:03:24 i want people to understand that i'm not
0:03:26 pointing fingers at anyone i'm looking
0:03:28 in the mirror and i'm very well aware
0:03:31 that some people masha allah at certain
0:03:34 stages of life allah has blessed them
0:03:36 with certain things where masha'allah
0:03:37 they they can make demands and people
0:03:40 fall over themselves to fulfill those
0:03:41 demands mashallah because they they're
0:03:43 highly sought after they're highly
0:03:45 prized right if you're a sister who is
0:03:47 older you have children or you've been
0:03:49 divorced whatever the case may be right
0:03:52 you don't want to have any more kids
0:03:53 okay uh you you've got your and the
0:03:55 thing is what i've also found is
0:03:58 with us as women the older we get
0:04:01 the more life experience we've had the
0:04:03 more we've been married the more we've
0:04:04 had children the more demanding we
0:04:07 become not the less the more demanding
0:04:10 we become so by the time you're 35 and
0:04:12 on your second marriage or you're 40 and
0:04:14 you want to find your third husband your
0:04:16 list of what you want and what you won't
0:04:18 put up with etc is very long now because
0:04:21 you've been you've experienced certain
0:04:23 things you came out of the first
0:04:24 marriage you're like well i don't want
0:04:25 that again now that's new things added
0:04:27 to your list
0:04:29 is it more of a
0:04:31 um
0:04:32 is it more of a negative thing rather
0:04:34 than it is an affirmative thing like
0:04:36 maybe it could be because i don't want
0:04:38 this i don't want this
0:04:40 it could be that i'm not going to do
0:04:41 this again i'm not going to go for that
0:04:42 kind of guy
0:04:43 but i think the point that i'm making
0:04:44 anyway
0:04:45 is um aside from all of that because
0:04:47 maybe somebody was hearing this and say
0:04:48 well that's not me you know i'm not like
0:04:50 that i don't know anybody like that
0:04:52 which is fair enough the point that i'm
0:04:54 making is while you cis are making all
0:04:56 those demands those islamic very islamic
0:04:58 demands traditional demands on this man
0:05:01 you're saying out of your mouth i don't
0:05:04 cook i don't clean um
0:05:07 i'm not going to obey i don't wear hijab
0:05:12 you might as well just say whatever go
0:05:13 marry uh my sister but
0:05:16 but this is this is for me
0:05:18 why i'm having this conversation i'm
0:05:20 trying to have this conversation
0:05:21 inshallah with sisters is
0:05:23 this is where the realism comes in this
0:05:25 is where the pragmatism comes in this is
0:05:27 where you can't have the traditional
0:05:29 benefits without the traditional role if
0:05:31 you want a man to perform the
0:05:34 traditional function guess what he's
0:05:36 looking for a woman who's going to
0:05:38 perform her traditional function so
0:05:41 you don't have to go for a traditional
0:05:42 man that's your choice but if you want
0:05:44 the traditional man and the benefits
0:05:46 that come with that you need to somehow
0:05:48 get okay with the idea of being the
0:05:50 traditional wife because being a
0:05:52 traditional wife it looks a certain way
0:05:54 just like a traditional husband looks a
0:05:55 certain way no one's forcing you to to
0:05:57 go that route it's up to you it's your
0:05:59 choice but you can't have both you can't
0:06:01 have it both ways you can't say
0:06:04 you you don't get to tell me to do this
0:06:06 uh i'm you know i'm not going to let a
0:06:07 man tell me to do that
0:06:10 but you have to pay my bills though
0:06:11 because islam said exactly exactly but
0:06:14 and i'm the same woman or maybe
0:06:16 sometimes this is an archetypal woman
0:06:17 right it's not talking about a woman but
0:06:20 the same archetypal type of woman we're
0:06:21 talking about here she will
0:06:24 uh she will easily bow the knee when it
0:06:27 comes to her white
0:06:30 boss
0:06:31 mcdonald's or whatever she's working or
0:06:33 in the car wash or i don't know where
0:06:36 where she works anywhere she may work in
0:06:38 the cleaning cleaning place or it could
0:06:40 be in the office where she has to even
0:06:41 flirt with the man a little bit to get
0:06:43 where she wants so she is contextual
0:06:46 it's not about oh i i don't i believe in
0:06:48 obedience you do believe in obedience
0:06:51 every single society instructor works on
0:06:54 a
0:06:55 type of hierarchy you know we as muslims
0:06:57 we are we believe in a complementarity
0:07:00 between man and woman we don't believe
0:07:01 in egality between them we believe in a
0:07:03 hierarchical managerial structure just
0:07:06 as you would expect if you went and
0:07:07 worked in a secondary school i was i
0:07:09 worked in many secondary schools the
0:07:11 expectation is is actually quite
0:07:13 sometimes disturbing you come in the
0:07:15 head teacher comes in and all the women
0:07:17 are going around him like sorry uh
0:07:19 concubines around the
0:07:21 something you know you think what the
0:07:22 hell like you know every little word she
0:07:24 says scared
0:07:25 the same woman she's the biggest
0:07:26 feminist when she goes home
0:07:28 this is yeah it's it's it actually blows
0:07:31 my blood especially when it comes from
0:07:32 the muslim community like oh you're your
0:07:34 husband you're lying without him at home
0:07:36 but when you go to you don't replace
0:07:37 that work you know the man can tell you
0:07:39 what he wants whatever you do yeah yeah
0:07:41 but he's paying me but he's it's the
0:07:42 same transactional kind of thing
0:07:44 but he's the thing you're getting all
0:07:45 these benefits as well from the man in
0:07:47 fact he's willing to do your husband as
0:07:49 well before
0:07:50 you right
0:07:51 so i feel like it's just it is actually
0:07:54 wholesale acceptance without resistance
0:07:57 these ideologies of the west which
0:07:59 position a woman as only acceptable
0:08:03 or um
0:08:05 you know even viable as a subject
0:08:08 if she's in the work environment and
0:08:10 that's what the only context where
0:08:11 obedience makes sense but yeah oral
0:08:14 farron says something really good in his
0:08:15 book you know he's got a book called the
0:08:17 myth of male power and he also
0:08:20 boy crisis
0:08:21 oh yes i've heard of that yeah is it
0:08:23 where he taught his recent book but the
0:08:25 classic book that he wrote was called
0:08:26 the myth of male power and in that book
0:08:29 he basically he gives the example of a
0:08:31 woman
0:08:32 who works in a corporate environment
0:08:33 yeah
0:08:34 and he he says what would like this
0:08:36 archetypal woman what would she think if
0:08:38 she's now in charge of more people
0:08:40 would she think that that's an expansion
0:08:42 of her power or influence or what she
0:08:44 thinks that is less power influence he
0:08:46 says she would think that it's an
0:08:48 expansion of her parent influence when
0:08:50 she goes home and she has more kids she
0:08:51 she sees as more of a burden she's
0:08:53 encumbered with those children she's
0:08:55 burdened with them
0:08:56 but she has more influence on the
0:08:58 children and will have more influence on
0:09:00 those children than she could or ever
0:09:01 will have influence on those employees
0:09:04 it's the same paradigm but different
0:09:05 environment the moment it moves into the
0:09:07 domestic environment
0:09:09 the moment drudgery starts to appear
0:09:12 this domestic drudgery
0:09:14 starts to appear and becomes uh the
0:09:17 prevailing narrative theme as you said
0:09:20 you know honestly it's like if it's in
0:09:21 this context it's oppression if it's in
0:09:23 this context it's professionalism you
0:09:25 see how they change the words you're
0:09:27 being professional professional when
0:09:30 you're listening to your boss but you
0:09:31 are
0:09:32 you are a slave oppressed at home when
0:09:35 you're in the house you know listening
0:09:36 to the hierarchy
0:09:38 and it's just it's a play on lexicon and
0:09:40 they've been able to dupe half of the
0:09:42 population so they can pull them out of
0:09:44 homes so that they can stimulate their
0:09:45 economies and
0:09:48 and quite frankly
0:09:49 they men are the biggest beneficiaries
0:09:51 of this ideology sure
0:09:53 i i was just true i 100 100 agree with
0:09:56 you i i agree because you know the the
0:09:58 anyway alhamdulillah i think
0:10:01 the the steep decline that you know
0:10:03 we've seen in terms of you know sexual
0:10:05 morality since the 60s
0:10:08 um
0:10:09 i think our deen has managed to
0:10:11 to to to shield us from the worst of
0:10:14 that
0:10:15 obviously in muslim countries there is a
0:10:17 slow burn
0:10:19 um but for lots of different reasons it
0:10:21 just hasn't been you know sort of steep
0:10:24 downwards whatever as it is in the west
0:10:26 but but but even if we are not having
0:10:29 you know partners before marriage if
0:10:31 even if we're not kind of having a hot
0:10:33 girl summer and all of that kind of
0:10:34 thing the ideas are all around us and
0:10:37 that's why i think it's really important
0:10:39 to have these open conversations and
0:10:41 really get young men and women
0:10:44 to examine the forces around them and
0:10:47 examine the ideas that they're
0:10:48 surrounded by and and learn more about
0:10:51 their islamic grounding so that they
0:10:53 have an effective filter for those ideas
0:10:56 that are around us
0:10:58 otherwise we're just going to go the way
0:10:59 the way of the people went before we're
0:11:01 just going to follow them like a lizard
0:11:02 and a hole you're right to finalize this
0:11:04 discussion it's been a pleasure talking
0:11:05 to you by the way and allah has been
0:11:07 very very fruitful
0:11:08 uh and i thank you so much for all your
0:11:10 insights they have been good and you've
0:11:11 articulated yourself very well i'm going
0:11:13 to steal some of your articulations and
0:11:14 repackage them one way traditional roles
0:11:16 traditional responsibilities you know
0:11:19 it's there you you have the gift of
0:11:22 of being able to to summarize things but
0:11:24 i was going to ask you this question
0:11:26 which is
0:11:27 a parting advice now for muslim men a
0:11:30 muslim woman young let's say call them
0:11:32 millennials call them whatever you want
0:11:33 starting up yeah this this channel the
0:11:35 demographic of it
0:11:37 maybe 18 to 35 18 to 45 that's the kind
0:11:39 of major age group there so
0:11:42 a lot of men a lot of women are gonna
0:11:43 start families and stuff like that
0:11:46 what advice would you give a young man
0:11:48 let's start with the man right advice
0:11:50 you would give based on your extensive
0:11:51 experience in the community and your own
0:11:53 life experience
0:11:54 on how to what to look out for what are
0:11:57 the blind spots what should we do what
0:11:58 should we look out for
0:12:00 a young man starting up and the same
0:12:01 advice for a young woman
0:12:04 so the first thing that i would say is
0:12:06 echoing what we said before which is to
0:12:08 get your grounding in your deen
0:12:10 the second thing i would say is
0:12:12 pay attention to your mental health
0:12:14 and make sure that you are healthy
0:12:18 mind body soul
0:12:19 because a healthy person moving forward
0:12:21 in life into a partnership with another
0:12:23 healthy person what do you have have a
0:12:25 healthy marriage so that advice is for
0:12:27 both is to learn your deen and get
0:12:30 healthy
0:12:31 i mean that holistically mind body and
0:12:33 soul get healthy if you're struggling
0:12:35 get help if you are confused get help
0:12:39 you know don't think that a marriage or
0:12:41 a husband or a wife is going to solve
0:12:43 any issues that you have any anything
0:12:45 that you're carrying with you you don't
0:12:47 want to take that into a marriage right
0:12:49 you've got any addictions anything like
0:12:50 that and i say this because this
0:12:52 generation it seems to be is the
0:12:54 mentally the most fragile generation
0:12:56 that we've probably ever seen you know
0:12:57 this is the generation where we have you
0:13:00 know just off the charts level of
0:13:02 depression anxiety suicidal thoughts
0:13:04 self-harm and muslims have it too we're
0:13:06 not immune even
0:13:08 where you're on instagram and tick-tock
0:13:10 okay it's game over right so that's what
0:13:13 i would say the first thing learn your
0:13:15 deen and get healthy and
0:13:17 choose a healthy partner understand what
0:13:19 it means to be a wife understand what it
0:13:22 means to be a husband and actively learn
0:13:24 and cultivate those qualities within you
0:13:27 unfortunately it's something that it's
0:13:29 not really spoken about
0:13:31 what does it mean to be a wife i was
0:13:32 thinking to myself if i was to do a
0:13:34 video for example you know are you wife
0:13:36 material i don't actually think that a
0:13:38 lot of young people could even say what
0:13:39 wife material is
0:13:41 you know what i mean husband material i
0:13:43 think people know kind of what husband
0:13:44 material is okay i need to provide and
0:13:46 protect you know whatever but wife
0:13:48 material i think a lot of people are
0:13:50 confused because we've got
0:13:52 our own way of valuing ourselves as
0:13:55 women that has nothing to do with being
0:13:57 a wife and it has nothing to do with
0:13:59 what men are looking for when they look
0:14:01 for a wife right
0:14:02 so so these are some of the
0:14:03 conversations to have with yourself main
0:14:06 thing is
0:14:07 be healthy look for someone healthy to
0:14:09 build with and make a commitment that is
0:14:12 based on something bigger than
0:14:13 yourselves it's not just a pleasure
0:14:15 thing it's not just a fun thing it's not
0:14:17 just like a good time thing it's not
0:14:19 like
0:14:20 tick tock it's not like pinterest it's a
0:14:23 commitment and insha allah will bless
0:14:25 you with joy and happiness and good
0:14:27 times but it will come at a cost you'll
0:14:29 have to sacrifice you have to understand
0:14:31 that and be prepared to do that
0:14:33 inshallah and just make a decision to
0:14:35 say
0:14:36 healthy children will come from me
0:14:38 you know a healthy lineage is going to
0:14:40 come from me and mine inshallah and i'm
0:14:42 going to do everything in my power to
0:14:44 ensure the health of my family unit and
0:14:47 those who come up after me inshallah we
0:14:48 have 10 hundred a thousand fifty
0:14:51 thousand people who've made that
0:14:53 decision and are on that path
0:14:54 subhanallah look how it would affect our
0:14:56 communities
0:14:58 it would change the game completely
0:15:00 precious advice and you've killed two
0:15:02 birds with one stone with that last can
0:15:04 you tell us where we can see that we'll
0:15:05 read some of your books so
0:15:07 where are you on social media where we
0:15:09 can see some of your kind of uh videos
0:15:11 or or any programs that you're doing for
0:15:13 young men young women women in
0:15:15 particular i know you do a lot of stuff
0:15:16 where can we
0:15:17 get that stuff
0:15:19 i'm on all the platforms instagram
0:15:21 facebook twitter youtube name abby
0:15:23 robert and all my books are available on
0:15:25 amazon also just search name would be
0:15:26 robert and you will find all 25 of them
0:15:28 there alhamdulillah fantastic
0:15:31 masha'allah you've done a great job and
0:15:33 i really had an
0:15:35 enjoyable and fruitful conversation with
0:15:37 you hopefully we'll do it another time
0:15:39 and
0:15:40 for those who are watching at home we've
0:15:43 we have kind of maybe you could argue
0:15:46 diverted a little bit from the remit
0:15:49 but a lot of these issues
0:15:52 which have been discussed today really
0:15:54 do affect the muslim community and they
0:15:56 do need to be spoken about and i think
0:15:58 uh
0:15:59 many if not most especially on this
0:16:00 channel would agree
0:16:02 that sister naima has done a wonderful
0:16:04 job in tackling those issues until next
0:16:06 time salaam alaikum warahmatullahi