Challenge: There is an Obvious Contradicton in the Quran (2022-08-07) ​

0:00:02 in islam doesn't only refers
0:00:04 to god's knowledge
0:00:07 just god knows the future and therefore
0:00:10 he he actually wills
0:00:12 the future yeah he didn't say it's just
0:00:14 knowledge so he wills it yes so he wills
0:00:16 as in he creates the world it was in
0:00:20 his perspective that he nothing happens
0:00:22 without his permission
0:00:24 so you can make a choice
0:00:26 but it doesn't mean it's going to be
0:00:28 fulfilled it's because
0:00:29 allah can stop that choice it can stop
0:00:32 the the thing from happening but it
0:00:34 doesn't affect your choice
0:00:45 incompatible with free will
0:00:48 because free will means that
0:00:51 it's it's not the plan of allah isn't
0:00:53 that right because if it was the plan of
0:00:56 allah
0:01:07 about god's knowledge and free will so
0:01:09 this necessary knowledge yes
0:01:12 you know that okay
0:01:14 excuse me
0:01:16 if you want to phrase it in terms of
0:01:18 like possible worlds
0:01:20 god knows all possibilities
0:01:22 and he knows
0:01:24 the
0:01:25 free choices of free agents in all these
0:01:28 possible worlds and he can actualize a
0:01:30 world that accords with his plan
0:01:32 but the acts of the agents in those
0:01:34 worlds are still free
0:01:36 i mean
0:01:38 there's no problem with that
0:01:40 yeah but uh
0:01:42 al qaeda in islam doesn't only refers
0:01:45 to god's knowledge
0:01:48 just god knows the future and therefore
0:01:51 he he actually wills
0:01:53 the future yeah he didn't say it's just
0:01:55 knowledge so he wills it yes so he wills
0:01:57 us and he creates the world it was in
0:02:01 his perspective that he nothing happens
0:02:03 without his permission
0:02:05 so you can make a choice
0:02:07 but it doesn't mean it's going to be
0:02:09 fulfilled because
0:02:10 allah can stop that choice it can stop
0:02:13 the the thing from happening but it
0:02:15 doesn't affect your choice
0:02:17 and it doesn't affect your action
0:02:19 just because allah knows something
0:02:21 that's going to happen it doesn't affect
0:02:23 your action that you chose to make that
0:02:25 act
0:02:27 yes but as i said that's that's kind of
0:02:29 a misrepresentation of the problem
0:02:31 because
0:02:32 even muslim apologies
0:02:34 like muhammad kitsab said that the
0:02:37 the this is not just about the knowledge
0:02:40 of allah so
0:02:41 abdullah kind of answered no okay yeah
0:02:44 well i agree and he benefits
0:02:46 so allah wills to create and creates the
0:02:49 world that he wants to create knowing
0:02:50 that you will freely choose the act that
0:02:52 you will freely choose that doesn't make
0:02:54 the act any less free
0:02:56 yes questions accounts for the freedom
0:02:59 so it's not
0:03:00 yeah
0:03:01 yeah regarding uh that the punishment
0:03:04 of of allah is very severe
0:03:07 okay we are talking about eternity in
0:03:09 the hellfire now you are saying that
0:03:11 he's
0:03:12 he's creating multiple multiple wars
0:03:15 and he chooses the world that
0:03:18 that people freely choose
0:03:21 that is again heart determinism okay
0:03:24 so that is kind of determinism our
0:03:26 determinism is that your
0:03:29 let's say everything but in this case
0:03:31 your acts
0:03:32 right uh are causally determined by
0:03:35 prior conditions that are not within
0:03:37 your control
0:03:39 right so then what
0:03:41 that can be denied
0:03:43 i mean
0:03:44 so you can you can take a compatible
0:03:45 compatibilist position but you can even
0:03:47 take like a libertarian free will
0:03:48 position with everything you're saying
0:03:51 with god actualizing and creating a
0:03:53 world that he wants to create that
0:03:54 accords with his plan
0:03:56 with his knowledge
0:03:58 of the free acts of free agents in that
0:04:00 world there's absolutely no
0:04:01 contradiction
0:04:03 yeah yeah you you gave a very uh an
0:04:05 elaborated apologetic that drives from
0:04:08 uh
0:04:09 philosophy
0:04:10 but it's not allergenic it's just
0:04:13 101 bro yes
0:04:15 that's what i said but the problem is
0:04:17 that if god as you said so in in other
0:04:20 words you're kind of saying the same
0:04:21 thing
0:04:22 but now you are saying that god makes
0:04:24 eternal
0:04:25 or
0:04:27 all the possibilities and he chooses
0:04:30 the possibility that people will
0:04:33 choose
0:04:35 to go to hell let's let's say they
0:04:37 choose their own actions please don't
0:04:38 turn this into a problem of evil
0:04:40 argument right now though so we can
0:04:41 finish this one then you could talk
0:04:43 about hell right
0:04:44 but yeah i'm not saying that is what
0:04:46 happens i'm saying it's a possibility so
0:04:48 you saying that it's just an explicit
0:04:50 contradiction it's just not right it's
0:04:52 just wrong
0:04:54 yeah
0:04:58 you're choosing to go to hell
0:05:02 no no according to the quran because
0:05:06 you're denying the revelations you're
0:05:08 denying the messages you're denying
0:05:10 allah and allah told you the
0:05:11 consequences of action you've made that
0:05:14 decision you've chose that path yeah but
0:05:17 the verses i read uh i read to you
0:05:21 clearly said that it was a last plan and
0:05:24 he will for me
0:05:26 to disbelieve if if
0:05:28 and okay let me read you another verse
0:05:30 because
0:05:31 have you read the quran socrates son
0:05:33 yes of course not not from the beginning
0:05:35 till the end like a book you're not
0:05:37 reading every letter
0:05:38 have you read the past in the crime when
0:05:40 allah says let those who believe choose
0:05:42 to believe and those who don't don't
0:05:44 yes that's why i'm saying yes that's why
0:05:46 i'm saying that that's a
0:05:48 contradiction so before you were asking
0:05:50 is there any contradiction
0:05:53 because in one verse it says
0:05:55 that uh
0:05:57 we can read again the verses there are
0:05:58 many verses that says that allah plan
0:06:01 for people to sin and he shows no to god
0:06:06 the reasons behind what's happening
0:06:09 it doesn't just say socrates son i don't
0:06:12 like you mate and you're we're not we're
0:06:14 not calvinists here yeah you know you're
0:06:17 selected and you're not
0:06:32 to open their eyes but it's based upon
0:06:34 their their what they do
0:06:36 yeah if you go down in your knees
0:06:38 tonight and asked a lot for guidance i'd
0:06:40 like to guide you
0:06:41 yes
0:06:43 so you make your own choice
0:06:45 but uh unless so what is the guidance of
0:06:48 allah obviously is the quran isn't that
0:06:51 right and his word
0:06:53 so when you say
0:06:55 yes in the messenger so when when allah
0:06:57 says that he chooses who who to guide
0:07:01 that implies
0:07:02 that
0:07:04 okay so
0:07:07 if we assume that his guidance is the
0:07:09 quran
0:07:10 that implies that he chooses to whom
0:07:13 he will give the quran in other words
0:07:16 can you understand what i'm saying so
0:07:17 unless we assume the problem
0:07:19 you know when someone becomes a muslim
0:07:21 we don't think that we've made them
0:07:22 muslim just our arguments we've been
0:07:24 allah give them that they've opened
0:07:26 their hearts up and they've recognized
0:07:27 that fitra has opened up and
0:07:29 alhamdulillah allah gives them the
0:07:30 hidayah the understanding
0:07:33 some people are blinded by that allah
0:07:35 blinds some people by that we know this
0:07:37 based upon your arrogance and your
0:07:38 actions
0:07:40 but you chose that path you can't cry no
0:07:44 no i love you
0:07:45 i blinded me because you're arrogant
0:07:46 mate no
0:07:48 arrogance maybe you use an open mind and
0:07:50 maybe i will guide you
0:07:52 wait this morning okay let me in order
0:07:54 not to take too much time
0:07:56 my question is does a lot chooses who to
0:07:59 guide that's my question and the answer
0:08:01 is yes according to the quran
0:08:04 look something you and a lot of people
0:08:06 like the the the
0:08:08 guest earlier really need to understand
0:08:10 about contradictions is that it's it's
0:08:12 very difficult to demonstrate
0:08:14 that there's an actual contradiction in
0:08:16 in
0:08:17 let's say a partic any text or a
0:08:19 person's position because people
0:08:21 normally don't contradict themselves
0:08:23 right and the reason is difficult so you
0:08:25 can't just look for oh look look there's
0:08:27 this word and then there's the negation
0:08:29 of it in another verse contradiction
0:08:32 in order for it to be a contradiction
0:08:34 they need to mean
0:08:35 those two words in the same way at the
0:08:38 same time
0:08:40 sorry so
0:08:41 so you can't just you can't do that you
0:08:43 have to read it through a particular
0:08:44 lens now what are the possible meanings
0:08:46 of this verse and what what are the
0:08:48 possible meanings of that
0:08:50 and that's what i mean i mean
0:08:52 the whole discussion of like free will
0:08:55 versus determinism whether it's in a
0:08:57 theistic or non-theistic context
0:09:01 is paradoxical in a sense right i mean
0:09:03 so it's not it's it's but it's not
0:09:05 necessarily an explicit contradiction i
0:09:07 mean the idea is that
0:09:10 you establishing the contradiction would
0:09:12 require you for you to say that this
0:09:15 particular verse is understood in this
0:09:17 specific way by muslims and that other
0:09:20 verse is understood in that other way
0:09:23 that explicitly contradicts that verse
0:09:25 you can't just say oh look it says that
0:09:27 here and says this yeah you have to do a
0:09:29 bit more work than that i i agree with
0:09:31 that i totally agree with what you said
0:09:34 but then my my argument is that okay you
0:09:38 can reconcile those contradictions but
0:09:40 that means the quran and hadith are not
0:09:42 clear
0:09:43 because we are talking
0:09:45 so you can reconcile the contradictions
0:09:47 you can say you can reconcile the
0:09:50 apparent inconsistencies maybe in your
0:09:52 understanding of the text
0:09:54 or even in the text maybe there can be
0:09:55 an apparent contradiction but then it's
0:09:57 not uh
0:09:59 no contradiction whatsoever you're
0:10:01 reading a contradiction into it okay
0:10:03 socrates socrates uh
0:10:06 mr owell
0:10:07 hello
0:10:08 yes yes question i'm here yeah so just
0:10:11 to give a just to give a basic summary
0:10:13 okay just to just to finish up
0:10:17 um so
0:10:19 i'm sure you're aware of the four
0:10:20 pillars of the divine decree
0:10:23 yeah so the first one is that yes we
0:10:25 must know that allah is all-knowing
0:10:28 and his knowledge is certain
0:10:30 okay and us as humans we are not all
0:10:34 knowing
0:10:35 we have limited knowledge we really have
0:10:37 limited knowledge and our knowledge is
0:10:40 just based on experience
0:10:42 our experience that we get from the
0:10:43 world our experience of revelation
0:10:46 uh from through the quran and the sunnah
0:10:48 etc
0:10:49 and so we don't have everything we don't
0:10:51 have all the knowledge
0:10:53 but allah's knowledge is
0:10:55 absolute like he knows exactly what's
0:10:58 going to happen okay that's the first
0:11:00 pillar
0:11:01 the second pillar
0:11:02 of divine decree i know you know this
0:11:04 but this is for the for the benefit of
0:11:06 the viewers because um
0:11:08 you know i think they could get a lot of
0:11:09 doubts from if they don't if it's not
0:11:11 cleared up
0:11:12 the second one is that allah has
0:11:13 recorded everything that's going to
0:11:15 happen
0:11:16 and everything that's going to happen uh
0:11:19 in in existence it's been recorded in
0:11:21 the preserved tablet
0:11:23 from his knowledge
0:11:25 okay so whatever whatever happens
0:11:28 has been recorded previously before it
0:11:31 happens but it's been recorded from the
0:11:34 knowledge of allah
0:11:35 allah has ordered the pen to write in
0:11:37 the preserved tablet and it's been
0:11:39 recorded okay
0:11:41 the third pillar
0:11:43 is that nothing happens without the
0:11:45 permission of allah
0:11:46 that he is all-powerful
0:11:49 okay so maybe i have an intention maybe
0:11:53 i have a i make a choice to go somewhere
0:11:56 and for some reason it doesn't happen
0:11:58 maybe the bus breaks down maybe the
0:12:00 uh whatever may happen maybe there's a
0:12:02 petrol strike whatever it may be
0:12:05 whatever happens i i've made a choice
0:12:08 okay i've had an intention but for
0:12:10 whatever reason
0:12:12 it's
0:12:12 not happened through the permission of
0:12:14 allah because he is all-powerful and for
0:12:17 whatever circumstances happened it
0:12:18 didn't happen
0:12:21 and the the fourth pillar is that allah
0:12:23 is the creator of all these events and
0:12:26 all these everything he's a creator of
0:12:28 everything
0:12:29 so this is a very limited understanding
0:12:32 that we we humans have
0:12:35 um of the divine decree it really we
0:12:37 will never fully understand
0:12:42 divine decree because we're humans
0:12:44 but this is this is how scholars have
0:12:46 derived these principles
0:12:48 so we can understand every step of
0:12:50 divine decree and if we understand all
0:12:52 these steps then we have some kind of
0:12:55 understanding of how it works
0:12:58 yeah but so just to show you just to
0:13:00 show you like
0:13:02 i'm sure you're aware of this example
0:13:04 like when you have a teacher
0:13:07 in in school
0:13:08 the teacher knows
0:13:10 the the student the teacher knows what
0:13:13 choice the student is going to make the
0:13:15 teacher knows that this student's been
0:13:16 doing his homework this student's not
0:13:18 been doing his homework right so the
0:13:21 teacher
0:13:22 writes down from the teacher's knowledge
0:13:24 the predictive grades he says that
0:13:27 socrates's son gets an f a big fail and
0:13:30 john fontaine gets an a star
0:13:33 i mean why not right
0:13:35 and the teacher writes it down and puts
0:13:37 it in the draw
0:13:39 and then the next day the children come
0:13:41 in we come in and we do the test
0:13:43 and guess what
0:13:44 socrates's son gets an f and john
0:13:46 fontaine gets an a star now
0:13:49 the teacher's knowledge and prediction
0:13:51 did not affect the outcome of the test
0:13:54 at all in any way shape or form
0:13:56 right
0:13:57 and and of course the teachers
0:13:59 prediction is is it's not perfect it can
0:14:02 be wrong but allah's knowledge is not a
0:14:04 prediction it's absolute knowledge and
0:14:07 his recording his writing is certain
0:14:10 right
0:14:11 so
0:14:12 this is how the knowledge of allah and
0:14:15 the written
0:14:17 knowledge of what's going to happen does
0:14:18 not affect
0:14:20 our free will it doesn't affect our
0:14:22 choices
0:14:23 except in the sense that things don't
0:14:26 happen except with the permission of
0:14:27 allah okay
0:14:29 now when it comes to judgment day
0:14:32 and soccer sees his son and john
0:14:34 fontaine has stood there and on yom
0:14:36 kiyama and we're being questioned by
0:14:39 allah some people might say well this
0:14:41 isn't just
0:14:42 because allah knew what's going to
0:14:44 happen but we're not judged
0:14:46 on the book which was written and before
0:14:50 the actions took place
0:14:52 we judged on the books which are on our
0:14:54 shoulders after we have personally
0:14:57 made them intentions and made them
0:14:59 actions and failed the test
0:15:02 it's the books on our shoulders which
0:15:03 the angels are recording
0:15:05 which are the ones that we're judged by
0:15:08 okay so because i think your doubt is is
0:15:11 kind of mixed also with the problem of
0:15:13 evil of understanding
0:15:15 these these type of things as well
0:15:17 so
0:15:18 as it comes to socrates's son
0:15:21 we don't have every single answer but
0:15:24 for someone who has a man
0:15:26 we believe we have enough what allah has
0:15:28 told us in the
0:15:30 sunnah to get a gist of understanding
0:15:32 but the the
0:15:34 the main point is
0:15:35 that islam is true
0:15:37 and we have to obey allah and we have to
0:15:39 worship allah so the question is
0:15:41 socrates what are you going to do about
0:15:42 it are you ready to accept islam
0:15:45 yeah
0:15:46 are you ready you are are you ready to
0:15:48 become a muslim
0:15:50 no not yet sir but let me address what
0:15:52 you said sir you you just addressed that
0:15:55 the three points you said earlier you
0:15:58 never agree with this example this kind
0:16:00 of example you are addressing
0:16:02 alas knowing the future
0:16:04 so but you are not addressing the the
0:16:06 problem which is allah also wills the
0:16:09 future so the correct analogy with the
0:16:11 example you gave is that allah already
0:16:14 written a test and in fact this and
0:16:18 and
0:16:19 already written the test of the student
0:16:21 and the student wrote another test so
0:16:24 this analogy i'm using now in fact
0:16:26 mohammed hitzab used this analogy and
0:16:28 and said that is
0:16:30 that is in fact the problem with al
0:16:33 qaeda
0:16:34 in other words
0:16:35 the explanation you gave although very
0:16:37 very good explanation it only addresses
0:16:40 allah knows knowing the future
0:16:43 it doesn't address allah willing the
0:16:45 future and allow planning and allah
0:16:47 chooses not to guide people so that is
0:16:50 the difficulty in this in this case in
0:16:52 other words
0:16:58 when we when we come to the outcome
0:17:00 socrates
0:17:02 just just for argument's sake right
0:17:05 it that the outcome is judgment day
0:17:09 and the the the final destination is
0:17:12 janna or hellfire okay
0:17:15 yeah and that is determined on our
0:17:18 choice
0:17:20 our choice of accepting islam or not
0:17:25 yeah but but we now if somebody if
0:17:27 somebody doesn't accept islam based on
0:17:29 lack of knowledge
0:17:31 they don't they don't necessarily go to
0:17:32 the hell fire
0:17:34 that's that's not the the point in islam
0:17:37 is that not all
0:17:38 not all uh people who died
0:17:41 uh non-muslims go to hell fire some
0:17:44 people have never heard about islam okay
0:17:46 or or children etc
0:17:49 they will get they will be given a test
0:17:50 on the day of judgment to see if they
0:17:52 would have accepted and if they're
0:17:54 sincere they will pass the test
0:17:57 so they it doesn't actually raise a
0:18:00 problem because you're still the outcome
0:18:02 is still based on your choice
0:18:05 yeah but okay so i i get i get that how
0:18:08 you explain now is uh
0:18:10 local logically sound okay but the
0:18:14 problem is that now we need to assume
0:18:16 that many verses in hadith and quran are
0:18:19 not clear are
0:18:20 unimaginably unclear we've already
0:18:23 established you've got very poor
0:18:25 comprehension skills
0:18:28 don't even understand what you're
0:18:29 reading we've established that so we're
0:18:30 not going to go there we're not going to
0:18:32 suffer
0:18:33 to be honest i just want to know do you
0:18:35 think like so do you think compatibilism
0:18:38 in general like just just let's move
0:18:40 away from islam for a second
0:18:42 compatibilism
0:18:43 is just straightforwardly incoherent
0:18:46 is it no no no
0:18:48 okay so so can you explain what
0:18:49 compatibilism is
0:18:51 yes compatibilism is some kind of com
0:18:54 not
0:18:54 compromising between free will and
0:18:57 determinism
0:18:59 in other words
0:19:00 wait wait okay now here you're saying
0:19:02 that so so i i could even defend like a
0:19:04 libertarian free will view on what
0:19:06 you're saying but i don't even need to
0:19:07 do that okay so let's just stick to
0:19:09 compatibilism so yeah if you if you if
0:19:11 you think that that is not incoherent as
0:19:13 in reconciling determinism and free will
0:19:17 then why are you saying it's that it's
0:19:19 incoherent for god's let's assume that
0:19:22 your reading of the verses is anywhere
0:19:23 near correct
0:19:24 god deterministically
0:19:27 uh um you know willing things
0:19:29 and you know doing it of things and for
0:19:32 us to have free will
0:19:34 in some kind of way that's reconcilable
0:19:37 because if you think compatibilism is
0:19:38 okay then why you
0:19:41 you're being inconsistent in your
0:19:42 critique here no my critique is although
0:19:45 in philosophy
0:19:47 although in philosophy compatibility is
0:19:49 a sound argument
0:19:52 the the verses in in in the those verses
0:19:55 in the quran and hadith
0:19:57 are clear-cut heart determinism
0:19:59 clear-cut if you read for example
0:20:02 what is the term what is determinism
0:20:03 what is determinism determinism is that
0:20:06 all our all our actions are determined
0:20:11 uh holistically let's say totally
0:20:14 by prior causes by prior causes right
0:20:16 yes yeah now what are you arguing that
0:20:19 god's you know will here is doing it's
0:20:22 doing a deterministic
0:20:24 sort of process that leads to our acts
0:20:26 right so you're arguing that islam is
0:20:28 deterministic when it comes to allah's
0:20:30 creation right yes according to the
0:20:32 verses and then you're also arguing that
0:20:36 we couldn't have free will with that
0:20:37 determinism right
0:20:39 yeah
0:20:41 first of all yeah and at the same time
0:20:42 you're accepting compatibilism and
0:20:44 you're saying it's not incoherent
0:20:47 no no if i may uh sir first of all if we
0:20:50 are to make a secular argument i don't
0:20:52 believe in free will
0:20:54 but
0:20:55 i am what i'm now going to believe very
0:20:57 well you know you don't have to i think
0:20:59 in free will you accept that
0:21:01 compatibilism is a coherent position
0:21:03 it's not a contradictory position and
0:21:05 you just described the islamic position
0:21:07 right now as compatibilism but you're
0:21:09 saying the islamic position is
0:21:11 contradictory
0:21:12 while maintaining that compatibilism is
0:21:15 not contradictory okay i accept yes i
0:21:19 accept the claim of muslim of
0:21:20 compatibilism i accept they make this
0:21:23 claim but i don't accept this
0:21:25 this term applies to
0:21:27 to islam because there are verses clear
0:21:30 that clear-cut determinism for example
0:21:33 yes okay okay let's assume that but then
0:21:35 let me give you an
0:21:37 example
0:21:38 you don't need to give me an example
0:21:39 because we i'm for the sake of argument
0:21:41 i'm telling you that there are verses
0:21:43 that are deterministic now are there
0:21:45 others that imply free will
0:21:47 okay so why are you okay so here one
0:21:50 second one second socrates if you
0:21:53 do not have a problem with compatibilism
0:21:55 then what
0:21:57 are you
0:21:58 doing here right now i mean i don't get
0:22:00 it because
0:22:00 you're if you if you're saying that
0:22:02 compatibilism which is a reconciliation
0:22:05 between determinism and free will is an
0:22:07 okay position philosophically whatever
0:22:10 that means
0:22:11 but then it's not okay when it comes to
0:22:12 islam then you tell me what changed when
0:22:14 you moved from philosophy to islam you'd
0:22:16 want a contradiction
0:22:18 okay
0:22:19 good question so
0:22:21 what i'm saying is that
0:22:23 although in philosophy compatibility is
0:22:25 a sound argument when it comes to islam
0:22:28 because of those verses that
0:22:31 about 10 verses in the quran and 54
0:22:34 authentic hadith of sahih muslim that
0:22:37 compatibilism doesn't apply to islam
0:22:40 unless you reject 54 authentication
0:22:43 and explain why
0:22:45 because if you if you read this verse
0:22:47 let me give you an example sir because
0:22:48 it's determinism give me an example tell
0:22:50 me just look if i need the example i'll
0:22:52 tell you but you could just get straight
0:22:53 to the point is it because islam those
0:22:56 verses and hadiths they basically imply
0:22:59 some kind of deterministic view in islam
0:23:01 it's determined yes yes yes but that
0:23:03 determinism is also present in the view
0:23:05 that you're saying is coherent which is
0:23:07 compatibilism so there's no problem with
0:23:09 determinism
0:23:11 alongside free will
0:23:13 according to okay
0:23:14 position yes yes okay okay so
0:23:17 but
0:23:18 why isn't those a contradiction and
0:23:21 how you reckon because i can name it if
0:23:23 i see one of those reconciled you don't
0:23:25 have a problem with compatibilism you
0:23:27 shouldn't be asking me that you should
0:23:28 be like no okay islam is compatibilist
0:23:30 okay have a good day
0:23:33 unless you you're saying compatibilism
0:23:35 is incoherent which you're not saying
0:23:38 so
0:23:41 and and the socrates you have this you
0:23:42 always have this thing where you say
0:23:44 it's a sound argument in philosophy i
0:23:46 don't know what that means like
0:23:47 in philosophy but then when we take the
0:23:49 argument somewhere else it's suddenly
0:23:50 gonna make what changes
0:23:52 no no what i'm saying is that there
0:23:53 might be abstract arguments that make
0:23:56 sense that doesn't mean they apply to a
0:23:58 specific thing
0:24:00 so for example
0:24:04 i'm sorry i'm sorry you just accepted
0:24:06 multiple times that determinism
0:24:09 is reconcilable with free will within
0:24:12 certain philosophical positions that are
0:24:13 respectable now you're not saying
0:24:15 anything different in islam other than
0:24:18 there is determinism and there's free
0:24:19 will but the only different thing you're
0:24:21 saying is that in this case it's a
0:24:23 contradiction now give me that added
0:24:25 ingredient
0:24:26 in the case of islam that makes it okay
0:24:27 let me give you the other ingredient if
0:24:30 we assume if we assume your position
0:24:32 right now that means that by definition
0:24:34 there cannot be contradictions in the
0:24:36 quran because any contradiction you see
0:24:39 you will reconcile that as
0:24:41 both things applying for example let me
0:24:44 give you
0:24:46 don't give me an example because this
0:24:48 specific contradiction
0:24:50 okay so you already accept that it's
0:24:52 reconcilable within a compatibilist
0:24:54 position so i don't need to argue with
0:24:56 you that's that's the argument i don't
0:24:58 even need to do that you already think
0:25:01 that you can have a respectable
0:25:02 philosophical position where you
0:25:04 reconcile between determinism and free
0:25:05 will
0:25:06 now
0:25:08 this is not really
0:25:09 rocket science you this exact mirror
0:25:12 image of that in what you're saying
0:25:14 within islam
0:25:15 but somehow there's this magical
0:25:17 contradiction you're thinking of that
0:25:19 you're not thinking of when you're
0:25:20 looking at just you know philosophical
0:25:22 compatibilism
0:25:26 no they added the added ingredients is
0:25:28 that i i i what you see as
0:25:31 reconciliation somehow i see us direct
0:25:34 contradiction because if we want let me
0:25:36 give you i want to give the example to
0:25:39 put forward this point if in if i take a
0:25:42 book and in one verse it says the
0:25:46 the sun is red and in another verse the
0:25:48 sun is yellow that doesn't mean the sun
0:25:50 is surrounds
0:25:52 that means that's a contradiction this
0:25:53 is what i'm trying to say
0:25:58 that's this first of all it's it's a
0:25:59 contradiction if it's read and not read
0:26:01 at the same time in the same way second
0:26:03 of all socrates don't go to other
0:26:05 examples because you already accept that
0:26:10 free will and determinism are in
0:26:12 principle reconcilable or if you don't
0:26:15 believe that you believe that the
0:26:16 philosophical position that holds to
0:26:18 that is coherent now you don't need to
0:26:20 hear from the compatibilist exactly how
0:26:23 it's reconcilable you don't need to hear
0:26:25 a metaphysical account that basically
0:26:28 explains how they're reconciled you
0:26:30 believe that the position can be a
0:26:32 respectable philosophical position now
0:26:34 when we take that to the quran there is
0:26:36 no difference you see compat you see
0:26:38 free will and you see determinism
0:26:41 and all of a sudden you're shouting out
0:26:43 contradiction
0:26:45 this is just complete inconsistency and
0:26:48 you just okay let's agree let's
0:26:50 agree let's agree because we already
0:26:53 let's agree that you're incoherent
0:26:55 no no
0:26:57 focusing your own self here by your own
0:26:59 positions
0:27:00 i ask you i ask you is is position x
0:27:03 contradictory you say no it's perfectly
0:27:06 reconcilable and it's coherent and then
0:27:08 i give you an exact mirror image of that
0:27:10 position with different words and i add
0:27:12 the word islam to it you say oh no that
0:27:13 one's a contradiction i ask you what's
0:27:15 the difference okay let me tell you what
0:27:18 yeah
0:27:18 stories i'm done with this conversation
0:27:20 okay
0:27:21 i understand your position so you don't
0:27:24 believe in free will so if somebody
0:27:26 kills somebody are you saying
0:27:28 it's not their fault
0:27:30 yes in an absolute sense it's not their
0:27:32 fault it's not their fault should they
0:27:33 be put in prison then
0:27:35 yes they should be uh put to present to
0:27:38 rephrase victims or criminals
0:27:42 excuse me say that again extremely
0:27:44 should be treated as victims or
0:27:46 criminals
0:27:47 criminals because why
0:27:50 because
0:27:52 the point of
0:27:54 prison or
0:27:56 is to reform and protect societies
0:27:59 is not to to punish people in an
0:28:01 absolute sense
0:28:02 that is can you understand now
0:28:05 so what i'm saying is that even somebody
0:28:08 how could you how do you rehabilitate
0:28:09 somebody who had no choice in what they
0:28:11 did
0:28:12 yes
0:28:14 there are certain uh uh point of prison
0:28:17 of punishment
0:28:18 which is to reform and protect society
0:28:21 who has no free will
0:28:24 your reform um
0:28:26 okay let me explain how the uh how i
0:28:28 think that works so uh it it depends
0:28:32 from where you define the self in other
0:28:34 words
0:28:36 from the perspective if you if you see
0:28:38 things
0:28:39 that uh
0:28:40 humans for example are are
0:28:43 a particles particles
0:28:46 then there is no free will but if you
0:28:48 define the self from the moment we
0:28:50 become conscious
0:28:53 did the killer have a choice
0:28:56 not in an absolute sense not enough
0:28:59 no not in an absolute so he didn't
0:29:01 choose to kill
0:29:03 yes he did it in an absolute sense i
0:29:05 always give you how does he reform and
0:29:07 choose not to kill if he didn't have a
0:29:08 choice in the first place because
0:29:11 when from the point we become conscious
0:29:13 okay so there are certain kinds of um
0:29:16 uh uh
0:29:17 forces
0:29:19 that affect an individual um can you
0:29:22 understand so so for example if you're
0:29:24 talking about
0:29:28 determine forces affect the individual
0:29:31 so
0:29:32 for example if i take any one of you uh
0:29:36 dear gentleman and let's say cia takes
0:29:39 any one of us
0:29:41 for a month in a in a lab they can make
0:29:44 us serial killers in other words the
0:29:46 environment and our natural
0:29:48 predisposition certainly defines our
0:29:52 will
0:29:52 in i
0:29:55 at the very least in a very high extent
0:29:58 i will claim uh holistically
0:30:01 so uh it's undeniable do you do hamsa do
0:30:04 you agree that the environment is
0:30:13 are you a heart determinist
0:30:15 yes i am a heart determines myself yes
0:30:17 yes so so the straightforward answer to
0:30:18 hamza's question is no he didn't have a
0:30:20 choice exactly yes in an absolute sense
0:30:23 that's what i'm saying
0:30:25 what other sense is there what other
0:30:26 sense is there
0:30:28 is
0:30:29 it's an absolute in the objective sense
0:30:31 what i'm trying to say is that it
0:30:32 depends from when
0:30:34 okay so
0:30:35 let me be clear objective sense is the
0:30:37 only one we care about did he have a
0:30:39 choice did he actually have a choice
0:30:41 forget about him thinking he has a
0:30:42 choice no no he
0:30:45 okay so that's why i'm making a
0:30:47 distinction but i don't want to get into
0:30:48 this of objective with absolute but in
0:30:51 an
0:30:51 absolute sense he didn't have a choice
0:30:54 in other words the all our experiences
0:30:57 in life plus our physiology
0:31:00 how sensitive we are how intelligent we
0:31:03 are all these kind of things
0:31:05 determine our will
0:31:07 but
0:31:08 because they are they are so complex
0:31:11 okay we have the kind of delusion that
0:31:13 we are free
0:31:16 and moreover
0:31:18 that
0:31:19 place
0:31:20 we can even say that we have free will
0:31:22 if we we take the perspective from the
0:31:26 point we become
0:31:28 consu we define the self
0:31:30 from the point we become conscious
0:31:33 can i understand what i'm saying i'm
0:31:34 kind of i don't know whether i'm
0:31:36 communicating i'm sorry i lost you for
0:31:38 like a few seconds because my bluetooth
0:31:40 died so let's not go
0:31:42 over complex things so i clay i'm
0:31:45 claiming that
0:31:47 hard determinism i don't believe in free
0:31:48 will
0:31:50 okay so just say that then i mean just
0:31:51 just
0:31:52 yeah yeah you know absolute sense and
0:31:55 uh you know objective sense i don't know
0:31:57 what that means i mean okay so there is
0:31:59 no free will the person who kills they
0:32:01 had no choice but to kill
0:32:03 yeah right so that's why we should treat
0:32:06 these people as uh
0:32:08 they are uh sick sick people
0:32:11 is funeral incoherent like do you would
0:32:14 you take like a position like i don't
0:32:16 know sam harris's one would say that the
0:32:18 idea of free will is just incoherent
0:32:21 yeah the idea um the idea of free will
0:32:24 is incoherent
0:32:27 unless there is there is some kind of
0:32:29 room for free will in um
0:32:32 in some kind of quantum and determinism
0:32:35 let's say
0:32:36 but
0:32:37 can i just pause here if the idea of
0:32:39 free will is incoherent why you arguing
0:32:41 that we don't that we believe in this
0:32:44 and don't believe if the whole thing is
0:32:45 inherently what's the point of this
0:32:47 conversation it's not that the
0:32:48 contradiction exists yeah
0:32:51 that's a good point i mean not just that
0:32:53 socrates i don't please don't let me
0:32:56 hear you in the future talking about
0:32:57 like you know
0:32:58 uh uh the the problem
0:33:00 hold up
0:33:02 is this the guy on twitter that makes
0:33:04 those weird videos on youtube's
0:33:05 occasionally yeah it makes youtube
0:33:07 videos about islam yeah
0:33:09 so i'm like i'm sharif sorry sorry i
0:33:11 know i knew you were buzzing about so i
0:33:12 had to drag you in
0:33:14 uh
0:33:16 alone
0:33:19 so i i
0:33:21 i don't understand socrates and
0:33:23 his arguments because initially comes on
0:33:25 says that there is a contradiction he
0:33:28 quotes a verse of quran and completely
0:33:30 misunderstands the verse he quotes the
0:33:32 second verse which also doesn't prove
0:33:35 his point
0:33:36 abdulrahman gives him the argument of
0:33:38 molanism which i don't think he still
0:33:40 understands what modernism is john
0:33:42 fontaine you know further elaborates and
0:33:44 explains that by the will of god means
0:33:47 by the permission of god meaning allah
0:33:49 could inter intervene at any one time
0:33:52 uh into a person's choice but allows
0:33:55 people to make choices so therefore it's
0:33:56 by the permission and will of god in
0:33:58 that sense
0:34:00 and then abdul rahman's also pointed out
0:34:02 the fact that
0:34:03 he himself doesn't see so logical
0:34:05 contradiction to adopt a position of
0:34:08 uh hard determinism and free will under
0:34:11 a compatibilist
0:34:13 uh framework
0:34:14 so
0:34:16 socrates do you how do do do you now
0:34:18 take back the point that there is no
0:34:21 contradiction within the quran based on
0:34:23 those
0:34:24 four points that i've mentioned three or
0:34:26 four points okay first of all whether
0:34:29 something uh exists in philosophy that
0:34:31 doesn't mean applies in in everything do
0:34:34 you accept it do you accept that for
0:34:36 example if i if i have
0:34:38 so it applies
0:34:40 i don't even understand what that means
0:34:42 because abdul rahman has made this point
0:34:44 he said it very clearly that if you
0:34:47 don't think there is a problem that
0:34:48 something can be determined at one sense
0:34:51 but at the same time you can have free
0:34:53 will
0:34:54 that you can have a reconciliation of
0:34:56 those two ideas yes
0:34:58 even if you think even if you think the
0:35:00 quran says that something is determined
0:35:03 in one sense but at the same time you
0:35:04 have free will then there is no
0:35:06 contradiction because you just accepted
0:35:08 that position
0:35:09 yes okay so i already when i started
0:35:12 what do you mean when you say in
0:35:13 philosophy please explain that as well
0:35:18 kind of like some other dimension where
0:35:20 things happen it's it's reason it's it's
0:35:23 what do you mean okay can i kind of
0:35:24 respond to that one once you follow up
0:35:27 really frustrated when i talk to you for
0:35:28 some reason
0:35:30 is there a possibility the koran doesn't
0:35:33 preach compatibilism
0:35:35 is there this possibility we're not
0:35:37 we're not socrates we're not saying no
0:35:39 please please answer directly my
0:35:41 question sir
0:35:43 he asked you a question he asked you
0:35:45 like where do you think philosophy does
0:35:47 not engage what do you mean that is what
0:35:49 i'm trying to do
0:35:51 no but answer the question rather than
0:35:53 asking a question to the question he's
0:35:55 trying to ask you he's asked because
0:36:09 in order to be able to answer his
0:36:10 questions i'm
0:36:12 asking to demonstrate that not all
0:36:15 concepts apply to everything in other
0:36:17 words is there a possibility the quran
0:36:20 doesn't preach compatibilism this is
0:36:22 what i'm asking
0:36:24 that's not the discussion the discussion
0:36:26 isn't whether the quran establishes
0:36:30 the discussion is about whether
0:36:34 there is a contradiction between the
0:36:36 idea of within the quran between the
0:36:39 idea that that your claim this is the
0:36:41 point you're claiming abdul rahmani's is
0:36:43 a very nice brother martial he's a very
0:36:45 nice guy yeah and he's trying to be as
0:36:48 charitable as possible
0:36:50 on your position to say okay even if you
0:36:54 want to say that there is a
0:36:57 deterministic that the quran is calling
0:36:59 for determinism he said even if you want
0:37:01 to say that you're still not bringing
0:37:04 out a contradiction because you adopt
0:37:06 the idea of compatibilism which brings
0:37:09 the idea both that something can be
0:37:10 determined and you can still affirm the
0:37:13 idea of free will together so he said
0:37:15 even if you want to do that now he's
0:37:18 given other arguments john fontaine's
0:37:19 given other arguments
0:37:21 you
0:37:22 in your own argument presented two
0:37:24 verses both of which do not even imply
0:37:28 or uh you know
0:37:30 you know state anything in regards to
0:37:32 determinism you know
0:37:36 sorry the owl is really making sense now
0:37:39 because he's he's starting to sound
0:37:40 cuckoo
0:37:42 really it's just uh
0:37:44 so so if you remember guys i started
0:37:47 saying
0:37:52 look you have a few options here just to
0:37:53 simplify the discussion right either the
0:37:56 quran
0:37:57 you know uh affirms or you know claims
0:38:00 that it makes deterministic claims about
0:38:02 god's acts and says that there is free
0:38:05 will as in we we humans have free will
0:38:08 and uh in that case well that's just
0:38:11 compatibilism right i mean there's
0:38:13 nothing further in that sense right i
0:38:15 think the question is
0:38:19 is compatibilism a contradiction
0:38:23 yeah according to according to
0:38:24 socrates's son no
0:38:28 do you agree with that socrates son yes
0:38:30 yes i said that
0:38:31 guys if you remember that's exactly what
0:38:33 i said one second one second i'm trying
0:38:34 to make it easy for the people watching
0:38:36 that because their eyes are glazing over
0:38:38 right so listen
0:38:40 are you saying socrates son that uh
0:38:43 compatibilism is a contradiction or
0:38:45 isn't a contradiction
0:38:47 compatibilism is not a contradiction
0:38:49 it's a sound argument alhamdulillah
0:38:52 right but it doesn't apply to you so so
0:38:53 so
0:38:54 if what
0:38:56 is saying and i'll show you've just said
0:38:57 to you is that compatibilism is in the
0:39:00 quran
0:39:01 that's not a contradiction yes
0:39:04 no
0:39:05 yeah i i said that
0:39:07 in fact i said that from the beginning
0:39:10 so bring in this idea that the quran is
0:39:12 some place seems deterministic and
0:39:14 another place seems free will yeah
0:39:16 exactly you're saying that's not a
0:39:17 contradiction though
0:39:19 wait because now um you are explaining
0:39:22 that as a reconciliation but i i
0:39:25 explained that as a controversy
0:39:27 very easy it's very easy bro i'm saying
0:39:29 this in proper layman terms man okay are
0:39:31 you saying that if the quran in some
0:39:34 places seems deterministic and another
0:39:35 place seems
0:39:37 that the rituals will which is
0:39:38 compatibilism yes
0:39:40 yes that is not a contradiction
0:39:44 no i'm saying that at the very least i
0:39:47 said from the beginning i'm not saying
0:39:48 that now i say it from the beginning
0:39:51 listen to you now forget the past we're
0:39:54 here now okay
0:39:55 are you admit accepting
0:39:57 that compatibilism is not a
0:40:00 contradiction
0:40:01 yes
0:40:04 and you accept that where the quran may
0:40:06 be deterministic in some verses and may
0:40:08 seem free-willing in other verses
0:40:10 right which is capitalism it's not a
0:40:12 contradiction
0:40:14 no because
0:40:15 you um
0:40:17 you explain that
0:40:19 no no
0:40:20 you explain
0:40:21 well that's it that's it you said uh the
0:40:24 quran's contradictory because in one
0:40:25 place is it saying it's deterministic
0:40:27 and then it's saying free will
0:40:29 yes yes so you just said that that's not
0:40:31 a contradiction because let's go wait
0:40:33 just a moment wait just a moment guys
0:40:34 because if if we assume what you say is
0:40:36 true then the quran cannot have a
0:40:38 contradiction by definition because
0:40:41 so let's say let's say something
0:40:43 let's say if in one verse the quran says
0:40:46 free will some advance that implies free
0:40:48 will and in another place it
0:40:51 makes a verse that implies that a heart
0:40:53 determinism is that a contradiction you
0:40:56 say that's not a contradiction but i i
0:40:59 see that as a contradiction free will
0:41:01 exist in heart with hard determinism i
0:41:03 can't take
0:41:04 this how are you seeing it as a
0:41:06 contradiction socrates when you just
0:41:08 affirmed that holding to those two
0:41:11 positions is not incoherent you just
0:41:14 affirmed that now what you want to say
0:41:15 after that is that well you can get out
0:41:18 of any you know a charge of a
0:41:20 contradiction in that way you can just
0:41:22 say just looks like a contradiction you
0:41:23 can make that claim elsewhere but not in
0:41:26 a place where you yourself don't see it
0:41:27 as a contradiction okay with us but yes
0:41:31 look your options are either that the
0:41:33 quran seems deterministic in some places
0:41:36 and it seems like it it
0:41:38 you know it puts forward a free
0:41:40 worldview in other places oh and in that
0:41:43 case there's no problem there's nothing
0:41:44 further to discuss or the quran is just
0:41:46 straightforward deterministic in which
0:41:49 case even there there is no problem
0:41:50 because that's your view
0:41:52 i mean your view is that the world is
0:41:54 deterministic
0:41:57 so why would you have a problem with it
0:41:59 yes but
0:42:01 my concerns are also uh are shared by
0:42:04 many um as you know muslim apologists
0:42:07 and muslim philosophers so when when
0:42:10 they try to reconcile this problem they
0:42:12 say that
0:42:15 that that the koran seems to have to
0:42:17 breach free will and and hard
0:42:19 determination
0:42:21 which isn't a problem as you've just
0:42:22 agreed so what's the concern
0:42:25 okay so
0:42:26 what i will say is that you imply there
0:42:28 is some kind of context underlying theme
0:42:31 that reconcile these verses i claim
0:42:34 those verses are direct contradictions
0:42:36 so i don't know how we can reconcile
0:42:38 that so socrates firstly we're not
0:42:41 saying that islam affirms compatibilism
0:42:43 we're saying that compatibilism even
0:42:46 under your view even if you want to take
0:42:48 your meaning of each of these verses
0:42:50 which is completely misunderstood anyway
0:42:53 that it wouldn't be a contradiction
0:42:55 anyway but i i just want to go back to
0:42:57 this idea of molinism do you know what
0:42:58 molanism isn't as abdul rahman has
0:43:00 explained yes it is uh some kind the
0:43:04 idea that god can create
0:43:07 creates
0:43:08 many worlds
0:43:10 no and one one of these worlds are
0:43:12 people are having a free will that uh
0:43:15 corresponds to his will and he chooses
0:43:19 this world this is this is how he uh
0:43:22 it's not that god creates many worlds
0:43:24 that's not what it is
0:43:27 god god knows
0:43:28 yes
0:43:30 scenarios so let me give you an example
0:43:32 a very basic example yeah so again this
0:43:34 is just a possible way of reconciling
0:43:36 yes don't mean that this is a position
0:43:38 in islam yeah but possibly so this what
0:43:41 it means is
0:43:42 as an example
0:43:43 if i know my child likes strawberry ice
0:43:46 cream and not mint ice cream
0:43:49 then i know that if i offer
0:43:52 the strawberry ice cream he'll eat it
0:43:55 and if i offer mint ice cream he won't
0:43:57 eat it
0:43:58 so i haven't determined my child's
0:44:01 choices but i know what my child would
0:44:04 do
0:44:05 given a particular set of scenarios so
0:44:07 god can create those set of scenarios
0:44:10 knowing what the free choice of a human
0:44:12 being would be
0:44:14 that's the reconciliation within
0:44:16 modernism about god creative act and
0:44:19 human free will yes but
0:44:22 that only addresses the the knowledge of
0:44:24 allah but al-qaeda no it's not because
0:44:27 it's the fact that god created it's like
0:44:29 for example me it's not that i just know
0:44:32 that my child i actively do an act which
0:44:36 is i give the strawberry ice cream
0:44:39 knowing what the act the free choices
0:44:42 would be
0:44:43 in the act
0:44:45 yes i created the scenario
0:44:47 yes but i create the scenario if you go
0:44:50 to a call if a person does that
0:44:53 in real life and he goes so he makes the
0:44:55 condition for somebody else to do an
0:44:58 action in in a court of law he will be
0:45:00 the judge accordingly isn't that right
0:45:03 so if i make the conditions for you
0:45:05 to make a uh murder certainly that's
0:45:08 certain if if i make a position no no no
0:45:10 no no hold on hold on
0:45:12 that's not the argument so the argument
0:45:14 you're trying to say that there's a
0:45:16 contradiction there is a contradiction
0:45:18 between
0:45:20 the idea that within the quran
0:45:22 apparently and i'm saying that's not the
0:45:24 case because the verses that you quoted
0:45:26 do not point to determinism in fact the
0:45:28 opposite but let's say even if you want
0:45:30 to
0:45:31 pursue the idea that god determines
0:45:34 everything it can be understood in the
0:45:36 context of modernism which is the idea
0:45:39 that god creates a scenario knowing what
0:45:42 the free acts of the individual would be
0:45:45 if that particular given scenario
0:45:47 occurred
0:45:51 now you can argue and say well is it
0:45:53 fair now for god to punish a person but
0:45:56 that's not a completely different
0:45:57 argument
0:45:58 focus on the argument focus on your
0:46:02 claim that there is a clear
0:46:04 contradiction that cannot be reconciled
0:46:06 about
0:46:07 feminism
0:47:22 you