God and physics: Talking with a Muslim physicist at Oxford University (2022-09-12) ​

0:00:03 hello everyone and welcome to blogging
0:00:06 theology today I'm delighted to talk to
0:00:09 saccline choudhary who is doing his PhD
0:00:11 in physics at the University of Oxford
0:00:14 you're most welcome sir
0:00:17 thanks Paul thanks for having me um I
0:00:19 think we we met under very interesting
0:00:22 circumstances but I'm glad to be here
0:00:24 I'm a big uh I'm yeah I'm a viewer of
0:00:27 your show so I didn't think I would be
0:00:29 on it myself but it's a privilege to be
0:00:30 here indeed well I'm very glad you uh
0:00:33 agreed to cut your cam on actually but
0:00:35 before we get to um sorry you've agreed
0:00:38 uh to come on to discuss some of the
0:00:40 issues surrounding the study of physics
0:00:43 at Oxford but before we get to that can
0:00:47 I just ask a very basic question what
0:00:49 exactly is physics
0:00:53 it's an excellent question and I think
0:00:57 in the modern world a good definition is
0:01:01 it's the study of
0:01:03 the what you would regard as the laws of
0:01:06 nature in in the sense that you you have
0:01:09 Mata and the interaction between matter
0:01:11 and energy
0:01:12 uh on a fundamental level but a good
0:01:14 metaphor I like to use is if you
0:01:16 consider mathematics to be like English
0:01:18 language grammatical structures
0:01:21 um how to employ sentences types of
0:01:24 sentences then physics is like English
0:01:26 literature it's a description of the
0:01:29 universe itself using mathematical
0:01:32 language
0:01:33 um in the best in with the best model or
0:01:36 the most rigorous model you have at the
0:01:38 time
0:01:39 um so I use that analogy
0:01:42 um so I would say it's the mathematical
0:01:44 description of the laws of nature we see
0:01:48 in the universe right so a Proficiency
0:01:50 in mathematics or understanding of
0:01:51 mathematics is obviously key to
0:01:53 understanding this language that is
0:01:56 deployed to try and understand
0:01:58 um the the the laws of nature as you say
0:02:01 yes right okay now does the study of
0:02:04 physics at a top Western University
0:02:06 which obviously Oxford is present any
0:02:08 challenges to Faith as a Muslim do you
0:02:11 think in your experience
0:02:13 it's interesting I
0:02:15 if I was to speak of my own experiences
0:02:17 I think the issues begin a lot earlier
0:02:22 in one's educational development than by
0:02:25 the time you get to University
0:02:27 um I think the way we learn science in
0:02:30 schools so science without understanding
0:02:33 the philosophy of science which I know
0:02:36 you've had people speak on your show
0:02:37 about before the the disconnect between
0:02:39 the two means that you start to view
0:02:43 um religion and faith
0:02:45 as almost a separate thing to what
0:02:50 reality actually is right so science
0:02:53 science takes precedence over faith from
0:02:55 an early age
0:02:57 um you learn you well I mean it depends
0:03:02 I would say
0:03:04 if I speak about what I experienced
0:03:07 science has given even within the I'm
0:03:11 from a kind of subcontinent immigrant
0:03:12 community in the UK the the scientific
0:03:15 studies are given this really high
0:03:17 precedence medicine engineering right
0:03:20 um they're regarded very very highly as
0:03:22 some kind of very secure type of
0:03:24 knowledge whereas religious Faith hasn't
0:03:26 been given the same treatment I would
0:03:28 say and so when you study science
0:03:29 without understanding what science is
0:03:31 you almost uphold it as this
0:03:34 um real gold standard of what knowledge
0:03:38 is right so by the time you get to
0:03:40 University actually a lot of people
0:03:42 struggle with their faith because they
0:03:44 see that faith is somehow something not
0:03:46 rooted in reason but science is rooted
0:03:49 in reason and can be verified uh and so
0:03:53 yes I would say by the time you get to
0:03:55 University a lot of people have
0:03:57 unfortunately internalized some of these
0:04:00 um false dichotomies I would call them
0:04:02 between faith and reason
0:04:04 and also
0:04:06 then you get to a place where
0:04:10 the majority of your teachers and the
0:04:12 majority of your peers
0:04:14 uphold a very different worldview
0:04:16 especially if you're somewhere like
0:04:17 Oxford the London universities have a a
0:04:20 greater
0:04:21 um or kind of inner city universities
0:04:24 have a greater uh peer group of Muslims
0:04:27 but when you go to Oxford or Cambridge
0:04:29 or some of the more uh the Durham places
0:04:32 like that more remote universities are
0:04:34 more I would say traditionally white
0:04:36 universities
0:04:37 um you're not almost secular University
0:04:40 yeah yeah they're just demographically
0:04:42 as amongst them London yeah
0:04:48 no no sorry you you go ahead well no you
0:04:52 just briefly touched on an element that
0:04:53 you said was missing from the uh the
0:04:56 school experience of uh experiencing
0:04:58 science and religion and that's a
0:05:00 philosophy of science and I I think it's
0:05:03 a really interesting observation I think
0:05:04 it's actually quite key how does the
0:05:06 philosophy of science help us to have a
0:05:08 a deeper understanding of what's
0:05:10 actually going on in science rather than
0:05:12 just sort of a uh objective factual
0:05:15 disinterested neutral Enterprise that
0:05:18 there are actually suppositions and
0:05:20 assumptions uh philosophers would say
0:05:22 that are built into this very project
0:05:25 which are important to know about I
0:05:27 would argue so what what what is a
0:05:29 philosophy of science and why is and how
0:05:31 does it help us to understand these
0:05:32 issues better do you think
0:05:34 yeah so I suppose there are different um
0:05:37 ideas about what the philosophy of
0:05:38 science is
0:05:40 um Popper's interpretation is probably
0:05:42 the one that's kind of taught in in
0:05:44 universities most frequently now and
0:05:46 it's the idea that a scientific
0:05:48 statement or fact is one that should be
0:05:51 inherently falsifiable so you should be
0:05:54 able to disprove it uh in in and of its
0:05:58 nature so science in that sense there's
0:06:00 this kind of idea of paradigms in which
0:06:03 on under a certain umbrella
0:06:06 a lot of things make sense and fit
0:06:08 within a model right
0:06:11 but there are slight anomalies within
0:06:14 that model things you can't describe
0:06:15 things that don't quite fit the model
0:06:16 perfectly right and then over time the
0:06:20 development of a new model or an
0:06:22 adaptation of the previous model can
0:06:24 then Encompass more of more of the the
0:06:27 things that we weren't able to describe
0:06:29 previously and so this kind of
0:06:32 scientific progress you could say in how
0:06:35 accurately we can model things
0:06:36 particularly in physics is um is what
0:06:39 science is about it we
0:06:41 assign I'm I mean a I would say a
0:06:45 high-level physicist is very much aware
0:06:47 and you must be aware of the in fact in
0:06:49 every exam you take you have to always
0:06:51 State your assumptions
0:06:53 um so it could be the conservation of
0:06:56 energy or the conservation of linear
0:06:57 momentum
0:06:59 um and you essentially it's very
0:07:01 interesting but you use the model
0:07:03 that gets you
0:07:06 the mo the the the accuracy of answer
0:07:10 that you need
0:07:12 for what you're doing so you never try
0:07:13 and use a more sophisticated model then
0:07:16 you actually need to for your
0:07:17 description so pass them into this idea
0:07:20 the economy of knowledge is key I don't
0:07:22 I mean there's a very famous text of
0:07:23 course by Thomas Kuhn called the
0:07:25 structure of scientific revolutions uh
0:07:27 is a Chicago Professor which uh gave the
0:07:29 theoretical explanation of of paradigm
0:07:31 shift so how you know obviously the
0:07:33 famous ones are the Newtonian Paradigm
0:07:36 Shift where we had a mechanistic
0:07:37 universe of you know discrete blocks and
0:07:41 like billiard balls bouncing off each
0:07:42 other and and objective laws and physics
0:07:45 and so on and then we had Einstein come
0:07:47 along beginning the 20th century with
0:07:49 his general theory of relativity and
0:07:50 everything became very different with
0:07:52 probability waves and and so on and uh
0:07:55 so that's a that's one example of a
0:07:57 paradigm shift that is obviously the
0:07:59 most famous one I suppose
0:08:01 um but you're talking about even in
0:08:02 exams even at Oxford you have to State
0:08:04 your your models your assumptions your
0:08:06 working uh models uh uh before you go
0:08:10 ahead and do what you do in the exam
0:08:12 yeah but um so you're not just going
0:08:14 straight in you have to say these are my
0:08:16 assumptions I think that's really
0:08:17 interesting
0:08:18 yeah absolutely and they're inherent
0:08:21 um and and you must State them otherwise
0:08:24 you'll answer you know if your
0:08:26 foundations aren't strong That No One
0:08:27 Believes In the structure you create
0:08:29 which is essentially uh how scientific
0:08:32 models work and and you can go further
0:08:35 back from physics because essentially
0:08:37 all physics is based in mathematics or
0:08:40 described using mathematics and
0:08:42 Mathematics really isn't science it's a
0:08:44 branch of logic it's a it's a type of
0:08:47 philosophy in the sense of science is
0:08:49 also a natural philosophy but it's
0:08:51 become so removed from philosophy we
0:08:52 almost see it as separate I think
0:08:54 mathematics is still you can see a
0:08:57 little bit of um really fundamental
0:08:59 philosophy in the in in mathematical
0:09:02 ideas and and actually one thing I would
0:09:04 say is
0:09:05 the again the in the west the the kind
0:09:09 of Divergence we see between religion or
0:09:12 faith uh as the term is used and science
0:09:16 historically wasn't there you mentioned
0:09:18 Isaac Newton he was although not a
0:09:21 traditional Christian he had a
0:09:22 conception of the idea of God he was a
0:09:24 deist in that sense and so was Einstein
0:09:27 um and famous people like lamatra uh who
0:09:31 was a very famous cosmologist
0:09:33 these people had a very firm idea of the
0:09:37 existence of God and they were also
0:09:40 philosophers I think the kind of
0:09:41 specialization of knowledge
0:09:43 uh we don't really get polymaths anymore
0:09:45 in that sense yeah the specialization of
0:09:48 knowledge being a very modern phenomena
0:09:50 this kind of splintering of knowledges
0:09:52 has led people to perhaps have a very
0:09:55 narrow View
0:09:57 of their kind of field being the
0:10:00 independent from other forms of
0:10:02 knowledge that that false Independence
0:10:05 they perceive uh where they don't really
0:10:07 understand the assumptions they're
0:10:08 working with is one of the issues I I
0:10:10 I've observed I think this is very true
0:10:13 there's increased specialization leading
0:10:15 to a split in uh but there are some
0:10:18 wonderful exceptions I mean one of my
0:10:19 favorite writers on this is uh John
0:10:21 polkinghorn
0:10:22 um who was famously a professor of
0:10:25 mathematical physics at Cambridge
0:10:26 University no less but also after he
0:10:30 resigned there to become an Anglican
0:10:31 priest of all things
0:10:33 um he became equally eminent as a
0:10:35 Christian Theologian he wrote lots of
0:10:37 books and I had the privilege uh
0:10:38 actually having met him in in London as
0:10:40 I was asking a few questions another one
0:10:43 of course is Alistair McGrath who did
0:10:44 his PhD I think in Biochemistry at your
0:10:47 University in Oxford
0:10:49 um and is now celebrated uh Christian
0:10:51 Theologian as well and they both write
0:10:53 extensively on the interaction between
0:10:55 science and Faith science and religion
0:10:57 in a very kind of um well an academic
0:11:00 way but not in the sectarian way so
0:11:02 there's much that when other people have
0:11:04 people other kinds of faith can listen
0:11:06 in like Muslims to what they say and and
0:11:08 be enriched by their discourse I think
0:11:11 absolutely and and I think
0:11:13 one thing I would say is having grown up
0:11:16 in the west
0:11:17 um despite being from an Eastern
0:11:19 background
0:11:21 we can have a slightly
0:11:24 a view as Muslims that there isn't
0:11:26 knowledge to be gained
0:11:28 from people who aren't Muslims perhaps
0:11:31 and I don't think that's quite correct
0:11:34 Not only was you know John polkinghorn
0:11:37 very very funny if you manage to watch
0:11:39 any of his debates on YouTube are very
0:11:40 intelligent and humorous man there there
0:11:44 are
0:11:45 there are great benefits you can take
0:11:49 from the thinking and teachings of these
0:11:50 people so long as you're grounded in
0:11:52 your own faith you know so as long as
0:11:54 you don't become a trinitarian or you
0:11:56 don't know
0:11:58 they're not evangelicals who proselytize
0:12:01 their faith these are considered
0:12:03 reflective individuals who listen and
0:12:06 and have an inquiring mind so they're
0:12:07 not a threat of the interface no and and
0:12:09 what they might give you that you
0:12:11 perhaps won't find in your own Community
0:12:13 is because they have also grown up in
0:12:16 the west as you have
0:12:18 um they may give you a Viewpoint that
0:12:20 you relate more with than your perhaps
0:12:24 your local Imam not to say that these
0:12:25 people don't have fantastic forms of
0:12:27 knowledge but they're but they're not
0:12:28 aware of the challenges you may face as
0:12:30 you say at a high level University or
0:12:33 um and in in that sense uh you know
0:12:36 Cambridge is an excellent person to
0:12:38 listen to or has the use of the cross in
0:12:40 America these people who have come to
0:12:42 Islam from Western upbringings
0:12:46 um have I would say have a better grasp
0:12:48 of some of the challenges that young
0:12:49 people face
0:12:50 and have read widely
0:12:53 enough to give people the tools and the
0:12:57 arguments needed to defend their faith
0:13:00 um against the threats that perhaps the
0:13:04 widespread secularism in universities
0:13:07 which is prevalent now
0:13:09 well on that point really why why are so
0:13:13 many top uh scientists in the west
0:13:15 apparently atheists I'm not just
0:13:17 thinking about Richard Dawkins here
0:13:18 who's obviously a notorious atheist but
0:13:21 you know there's a very substantial
0:13:22 atheism it seems uh present in the uh
0:13:25 the Western
0:13:26 um scientific Community which always
0:13:28 struck me as slightly odd but um is
0:13:31 there a sociological explanation or some
0:13:34 other explanation that we can help to
0:13:35 unravel that mystery yeah of course I
0:13:38 think there are a few things I think
0:13:40 on a fundamental level
0:13:42 um humility
0:13:44 is not of virtue that comes easily to
0:13:47 those who are more intelligent than the
0:13:50 majority of people around them
0:13:52 human beings are predisposed to Pride in
0:13:54 many forms but an intellectual uh Pride
0:13:58 is very very can be very difficult to
0:14:00 diagnose and can can hide very well
0:14:04 uh but essentially once you start to see
0:14:08 as a scientist how capable you are of
0:14:12 um describing and discovering new
0:14:15 phenomena about the Universe
0:14:17 um
0:14:17 you perhaps don't
0:14:20 you it becomes harder for you to admit
0:14:23 that there are things that you cannot
0:14:25 describe that you cannot quantify that
0:14:27 you cannot measure it's fundamental it
0:14:29 feels almost insulting to admit that to
0:14:32 yourself that okay you know I can't
0:14:34 measure the soul therefore it's better
0:14:36 for me to say the soul doesn't exist
0:14:38 than to have some element of humility
0:14:41 and say okay perhaps there's a sphere in
0:14:44 which mine my skills my intellect
0:14:48 are capable of comprehending things and
0:14:51 then there's something outside of that
0:14:52 that isn't within that and I I have to
0:14:55 be honest with myself and be able to say
0:14:58 okay here are my limitations that's one
0:15:01 thing one thing I've seen another thing
0:15:03 is sorry
0:15:05 very helpful what you've just said but
0:15:07 very the only you just let that
0:15:09 something that's what you have seen so
0:15:11 this is something you actually witnessed
0:15:12 at Oxford University without going to to
0:15:15 Pro crew it's an observation of yours
0:15:17 rather than just a theoretical
0:15:19 reflection you've noticed this issue
0:15:20 right well Paul I must say it's not
0:15:23 something I've seen just in people
0:15:25 around me I for a long time was very I
0:15:28 mean you could almost have called me an
0:15:29 agnostic and I know you have a
0:15:30 widespread audience so my honesty is not
0:15:33 to
0:15:33 shock people it's more to say that there
0:15:36 are doubts and periods in your life
0:15:37 which you go through uh and and I
0:15:41 these are observance observations I made
0:15:44 about myself as well when when I when I
0:15:47 came back to uh the religion that I was
0:15:50 born into uh from I wouldn't say I would
0:15:53 say outwardly I never really
0:15:55 stopped appearing like a Muslim I I
0:15:58 wasn't in clubs or you know doing some
0:16:00 of those other things but my internal
0:16:02 um my internal consolidation of my faith
0:16:05 wasn't quite there the you know the the
0:16:08 belief in the Unseen as referred to in
0:16:10 the Quran I didn't have that at the time
0:16:13 um right interesting but sorry that's a
0:16:15 side point it's not just I observe these
0:16:16 things
0:16:17 respect it's not a side point I think
0:16:19 it's really interesting what you're
0:16:20 saying because obviously you know to to
0:16:22 do a PhD in physics at Oxford you've got
0:16:24 to have a pretty high IQ to put it so
0:16:26 you are what you are one of these people
0:16:28 who
0:16:29 um potentially might be arrogant full of
0:16:31 hubris obviously you're not looking at
0:16:33 you you're not such a person at all uh
0:16:34 but but the Temptation was there uh for
0:16:37 certain kinds of people and you are one
0:16:39 of those certain kinds of people clearly
0:16:42 um as it's fascinating you wrestle with
0:16:43 this and you came back to faith and
0:16:46 belief in the Unseen uh and as a Muslim
0:16:49 and um there were there any issues in
0:16:51 that transition back to Faith that are
0:16:52 relevant to our discussion do you think
0:16:55 yeah and I think we're definitely we
0:16:57 will touch upon them but I want to First
0:17:00 perhaps
0:17:01 um finish addressing your question about
0:17:03 why I think so many scientists in the
0:17:05 west aren't atheists thank you I think
0:17:07 it's also
0:17:08 um again like I said
0:17:10 it's it's statistically more people now
0:17:13 are atheists
0:17:15 and therefore more scientists are also
0:17:18 atheists yes
0:17:19 um so you know it's also that Trend we
0:17:21 see in society and like I said we we do
0:17:23 science without the philosophy of
0:17:25 science
0:17:26 and so for a while we had science I
0:17:28 think as the real gold standard of what
0:17:31 people should believe in scientism as
0:17:33 it's referred to by famous philosophers
0:17:35 like Thomas Nagel
0:17:37 um but actually now I think we have
0:17:40 ideology trumping science interesting so
0:17:44 science actually now is giving way
0:17:47 to what people simply want to believe in
0:17:49 and an observation I've made Within
0:17:51 Myself and other people is that often we
0:17:54 choose our positions and then justify
0:17:57 them to ourselves afterwards yes and
0:18:00 science is not immune from this and I
0:18:03 don't want to speak specifically about
0:18:04 certain things but you've spoken about
0:18:06 them on your channel previously
0:18:09 that it doesn't matter
0:18:11 what argument you give to someone and
0:18:14 this is kind of quranic as well even if
0:18:16 you show them a miracle if if they are
0:18:19 deaf and blind
0:18:20 to receiving
0:18:23 that truth whether it be scientific
0:18:25 religious or otherwise you human beings
0:18:28 are fascinating in that we they really
0:18:30 won't move from their position even if
0:18:31 somewhere they know they're wrong they
0:18:33 simply don't want to be yes myself and
0:18:37 in others as well it seems to be very
0:18:39 characteristic right we we have this
0:18:41 kind of ego that attaches itself to an
0:18:44 idea and then the idea trumps everything
0:18:46 else and science is also giving way in
0:18:48 the modern world
0:18:49 to ideology
0:18:51 it's no longer that this uh kind of
0:18:54 Bastion of of great you know knowledge
0:18:57 that everyone subscribes to no it's kind
0:18:59 of now this is what we feel like doing
0:19:01 and let's see if science backs us up but
0:19:03 if it doesn't then science can also go
0:19:05 away
0:19:06 so the idea that science uh
0:19:08 traditionally is a Fearless Endeavor to
0:19:11 objectively look for the truth whatever
0:19:13 the cost we will just go where the
0:19:15 evidence leads you're saying is becoming
0:19:18 a casualty to a certain ideologies which
0:19:20 we've not named have been because we're
0:19:22 being diplomatic but uh but one
0:19:25 disability is to open a newspaper and um
0:19:27 it's all there just to give a Clarity
0:19:30 what we're talking about
0:19:31 um um but you're right there are certain
0:19:33 things which have which seem to be based
0:19:35 on science which are now just ignored
0:19:37 um even perhaps you're saying by
0:19:40 scientists perhaps uh in the name of
0:19:42 this ideology which is now ascendant in
0:19:45 the West
0:19:46 exactly and so if you extend that
0:19:48 argument to perhaps Someone Like Richard
0:19:50 Dawkins or Sam Harris
0:19:52 I think most of them don't want to
0:19:55 believe in God
0:19:56 yes right so and I and I think actually
0:19:59 if you think about some of the hardcore
0:20:01 atheist positions right
0:20:03 just a statement like something can come
0:20:06 from nothing for a layperson
0:20:08 I think that's a lot more I think that
0:20:12 rests in a lot more faith the the
0:20:14 universe can create itself from nothing
0:20:17 not potential not wave functions from
0:20:20 literally nothing yeah than the idea
0:20:22 that something created something
0:20:25 yeah just to use a very simple argument
0:20:28 and so by you know this is just one
0:20:30 example and it's not necessarily
0:20:32 rigorously philosophical that's not my
0:20:33 training but for the lay people out
0:20:35 there if you just consider what certain
0:20:37 atheists are asking you to believe in
0:20:40 it is nothing can produce something or
0:20:43 something can come from nothing but why
0:20:46 is I I know it may sound incredibly
0:20:48 obvious and self-evident why that's
0:20:50 absurd
0:20:51 but but philosophically it's important I
0:20:53 think to understand why it's absurd
0:20:55 rather than simply taking it for granted
0:20:56 that oh yeah of course why is it absurd
0:20:59 or illogical whatever you can to say
0:21:02 that something
0:21:03 can come from nothing because I'm asking
0:21:06 I don't quite understand what is nothing
0:21:07 I mean this is the first question
0:21:09 because is nothing a thing out there
0:21:11 from which nothing comes like you know
0:21:14 it's like an empty room but then an
0:21:16 empty room isn't really empty because it
0:21:18 exists in the space-time Continuum it
0:21:20 has uh you know it's not quite as
0:21:22 nothing as you would think so the very
0:21:25 constantly nothing perhaps needs to be
0:21:27 defined more clearly before we can say
0:21:29 it's illogical or incoherent job serve
0:21:32 to say that something can come from
0:21:34 nothing do you see what I mean
0:21:35 absolutely and the famous atheist
0:21:37 Lawrence Krauss tried to
0:21:40 um his book he tried to he tried to
0:21:42 explain how something could come from
0:21:45 nothing but his nothing relied upon the
0:21:48 idea that particles in physics can
0:21:50 spontaneously emerge from potential
0:21:52 Fields right but that's not nothing
0:21:54 that's a potential to exist right you
0:21:57 know so you're very right Paul I'm
0:21:59 perhaps not the best person to ask this
0:22:01 because it's actually it's very much
0:22:04 about epistemology and etymology how you
0:22:07 describe nothing nothingness yeah but I
0:22:11 think on a very basic human level
0:22:13 it's quite easy for us to understand
0:22:15 that you can't even conceive of what
0:22:18 nothing is
0:22:19 yeah
0:22:23 so it is inconceivable and and so
0:22:26 therefore when the atheists ask you to
0:22:28 believe and it is a belief he cannot he
0:22:31 or she or they cannot prove to you that
0:22:35 something can emerge from nothing it's
0:22:37 not possible
0:22:38 right and and here's here's what I was
0:22:41 referring to earlier uh for one of the
0:22:44 one of the things that they will say is
0:22:45 that the so the first law of
0:22:47 thermodynamics is essentially that
0:22:48 energy is conserved right right and
0:22:52 therefore how could all the energy in
0:22:55 the universe
0:22:57 have been so it can't be created or
0:22:59 destroyed and so all the energy in the
0:23:01 universe therefore what does it emerge
0:23:03 from
0:23:04 where does it come from is it is a
0:23:07 question you could ask indeed uh
0:23:09 logically speaking the Big Bang so what
0:23:11 was what gives the Big Bang the energy
0:23:12 the impetus to exist
0:23:15 and so a famous kind of atheist
0:23:17 refutation is okay the laws of physics
0:23:19 and nature only apply within the
0:23:22 universe
0:23:23 but that's what we would call an
0:23:25 inherently metaphysical claim I would
0:23:27 say you can't prove that that's not a
0:23:29 provable statement right you cannot
0:23:31 scientifically show me that that is the
0:23:35 case or not the case it doesn't fall
0:23:37 under Papa's definition of a scientific
0:23:39 statement there's falsifiable yes that
0:23:42 is falsifiable
0:23:44 and so this is what I I'm trying to
0:23:46 explain to you is it's partly hubris
0:23:49 and it's partly that people simply don't
0:23:51 want to believe in God anymore and I
0:23:52 think what it really comes down to is
0:23:53 you have intellectual Pride but you have
0:23:56 moral Pride as well you
0:23:59 part of the injunction of believing in
0:24:01 God
0:24:02 is that you have to do what God says or
0:24:04 you have to try or in Islam submit
0:24:06 submission or something yeah literally
0:24:08 exactly which is a sign of humility very
0:24:11 much
0:24:12 yes and you have to therefore
0:24:15 um accept that there is objective
0:24:18 morality and I think that's where a lot
0:24:20 of people just don't like it they're
0:24:23 like and and it's fine it's fine if you
0:24:25 can admit to yourself I just don't want
0:24:26 to be told what to do
0:24:29 um right I don't want to accept that
0:24:31 there are things up I've been told by
0:24:34 God to do and not to do I'd rather come
0:24:37 up with my own moral code
0:24:39 then really what the modern world is is
0:24:41 is
0:24:43 um a blend between scientism and
0:24:45 existentialism
0:24:46 gosh you know most people I hold that
0:24:49 thought I'm just taking a headline here
0:24:50 atheism blend of scientism and
0:24:52 existentialism that's a great uh uh
0:24:54 phrase though I shall Nick that if
0:24:56 that's all right with you yeah yeah no
0:24:58 no copyrights here um but that's what it
0:25:01 appears to me is most
0:25:02 people aren't really atheist
0:25:07 in
0:25:08 in the sense that they haven't really
0:25:10 internalized what it means to The
0:25:12 Atheist they haven't looked to the
0:25:14 metaphysics of atheism there are very
0:25:16 sophisticated atheists out there you
0:25:18 know they are and I'm not saying that
0:25:22 they're not intelligent people they
0:25:23 clearly are no
0:25:25 um and perhaps and I would say far more
0:25:27 intelligent than me that they have far
0:25:28 more training uh in their fields
0:25:31 respectively
0:25:32 and they perhaps have internalized some
0:25:34 of it you know someone like Daniel
0:25:35 Dennett however ridiculous some of his
0:25:37 Notions were at least they went to The
0:25:39 Logical extreme of what his his idea of
0:25:42 materialism was
0:25:44 and and free will not existing but it's
0:25:47 so counter-intuitive to The Human
0:25:48 Experience that you start to realize
0:25:51 that most people don't behave like they
0:25:53 don't have free will
0:25:54 yes yes right I mean just just to give
0:25:57 one example I think we're making this up
0:25:59 Professor Thomas Nagel who's one of
0:26:01 America's leading philosophers
0:26:03 um he's actually written some really
0:26:04 good books actually on uh critiquing
0:26:07 various things that even Muslims would
0:26:09 agree with anyway he said publicly that
0:26:11 he is an atheist because he doesn't want
0:26:13 to believe in God it's a volitional
0:26:15 choice it's not like I'd ever see any
0:26:18 evidence or how can you believe in God
0:26:19 no I don't believe I don't want to
0:26:22 believe in God for my own personal
0:26:23 reasons yes and he's not the only one to
0:26:26 have said this and it is as you say a
0:26:28 kind of honesty which is uh kind of
0:26:30 touching in a way although whether it's
0:26:31 morally acceptable is another question
0:26:33 of course but
0:26:34 um these people do exist and some of
0:26:36 them are very prominent atheists who do
0:26:38 not want to believe in God not because
0:26:39 because for their own personal agenda
0:26:42 Thomas Huxley famously was another one
0:26:44 yes absolutely and and and it's really
0:26:49 interesting but atheists have always
0:26:51 existed
0:26:52 um even in the Islamic tradition or in
0:26:55 Greek philosophy
0:26:57 um there were materialists atheists
0:26:59 people who thought that the Universe was
0:27:00 in infinite not not uncreated yeah so
0:27:04 therefore you didn't need a God right
0:27:05 Aristotle
0:27:07 Universe yeah right right and IBN Cena
0:27:10 was kind of similar in the Islamic
0:27:11 tradition although he wasn't an atheist
0:27:13 he held some certain positions
0:27:16 um
0:27:17 but the it's essentially always been the
0:27:21 same questions being asked yes
0:27:25 one thing I've realized about myself you
0:27:28 you referred to me as someone who's
0:27:29 intelligent earlier I've never really
0:27:31 had an Intel
0:27:32 um
0:27:33 an original thought pull every question
0:27:36 or doubt I had about religion
0:27:38 had been addressed by some medieval
0:27:41 scholar
0:27:42 a thousand years ago or 500 years ago
0:27:46 um you know if you're looking at the
0:27:48 Christian tradition you have
0:27:51 some very very
0:27:53 um good medieval scholarship there uh
0:27:56 Thomas Aquinas is someone that people
0:27:57 refer to but he based a lot of his work
0:28:00 actually on um IBN rust Avery's
0:28:04 previous to him and so even if you look
0:28:07 at these Scholars they The Human
0:28:10 Condition is unchanging and and to think
0:28:13 that we have now
0:28:15 unveiled some part of our intellect that
0:28:17 other people didn't have previously yes
0:28:19 we may have more knowledge about certain
0:28:21 things but the metaphysical questions we
0:28:23 ask about our own existence have always
0:28:26 been the same and our ability to do
0:28:29 philosophy or our ability to comprehend
0:28:32 things
0:28:33 are cognitive faculties have been the
0:28:36 same for a long time and so these
0:28:38 questions about the Universe
0:28:40 um
0:28:41 metaphysical questions not scientific
0:28:43 questions right have been answered
0:28:46 in by our scholarship a long time ago
0:28:50 some of these books are translated some
0:28:52 aren't you know the Kalam cosmological
0:28:54 argument by William Dr William Lane
0:28:56 Craig is a book you refer to quite
0:28:58 frequently
0:28:59 but actually is this is arrogance again
0:29:02 you kind of see arrogance everywhere is
0:29:04 this idea that we now know better than
0:29:07 those people knew we are somehow more
0:29:10 intelligent than someone like Al ghazali
0:29:12 or even rushed or or any of the or for
0:29:16 even farabi or any of those people or
0:29:18 alpharabi any of those Scholars
0:29:20 um issues we don't have access to their
0:29:22 knowledge anymore or it's not taught to
0:29:24 us right in a sophisticated fashion so
0:29:27 then we start to idolize
0:29:30 uh some of the modern intellects who who
0:29:33 do propose atheistic views about the
0:29:36 world
0:29:37 but actually they're talking about
0:29:38 here's the thing
0:29:40 Sam Harris Richard Dawkins these guys
0:29:43 are talking about things that they're
0:29:44 not trained in I'm far more likely to
0:29:46 listen to Thomas Nagel who's a who's a
0:29:49 philosopher by training yes or even
0:29:52 Nietzsche or uh or Emmanuel Kant people
0:29:56 who had philosophical training
0:29:59 and listen to their metaphysical
0:30:01 arguments than people who are from the
0:30:04 realm of science which is where I exist
0:30:06 as well
0:30:07 trying you know stay in your lane is
0:30:09 kind of what I would say it's it's and
0:30:12 I'm not trying to be disrespectful I'm
0:30:13 sure
0:30:14 that these people are intelligent
0:30:17 but they're talking about things that
0:30:19 don't really fall within their their
0:30:21 remit of training
0:30:23 yeah the people often said that the new
0:30:25 generation the new atheists the the uh
0:30:28 the famous uh The Four Horsemen of the
0:30:30 Apocalypse you know you mentioned
0:30:31 several of them
0:30:32 um that their level of discourse as
0:30:35 atheists they're polemic is considerably
0:30:37 inferior to the atheists of older
0:30:40 Generations people like Bertrand Russell
0:30:41 for example
0:30:43 um had that famous debate where he was a
0:30:45 British philosopher uh amongst many
0:30:46 other things mathematician a true genius
0:30:49 in many ways he was an atheist
0:30:51 um and he had a wonderful debate with a
0:30:52 guy called Cobblestone who was a Jesuit
0:30:55 Professor Heathrow where I where I went
0:30:57 to actually and uh you can actually
0:30:58 actually hear it or see it online and
0:31:01 the level of discourse in that was very
0:31:03 very subtle and and the arguments
0:31:06 deployed were and and what was
0:31:08 interesting
0:31:09 um is Bertrand Russell's he got in he
0:31:11 was put into a corner
0:31:14 um in this dialogue and he his response
0:31:17 to when he's put in this corner about
0:31:18 the existence of God was very very
0:31:19 interesting and quite extraordinary I
0:31:22 expected a man of his genius to have
0:31:24 much better I'm not going to go into
0:31:25 that but but I'm just trying to say that
0:31:27 Bertrand Russell wasn't full of
0:31:29 um you know you know nastiness and
0:31:31 mockery and hubris and dismissal and I'm
0:31:35 not going to take any of this seriously
0:31:36 kind of attitude he took religion
0:31:38 seriously even as an atheist and his
0:31:39 arguments are much more sophisticated
0:31:41 and the point being that today's
0:31:43 atheists are not like that that there's
0:31:45 been a decline in atheist arguments
0:31:48 but I think there's just a decline in um
0:31:50 human Endeavors and perhaps that applies
0:31:54 to The Atheist and to the religious
0:31:55 scholarship we have currently
0:31:58 um we I would say we seem to be far more
0:32:01 interested in what we feel like doing or
0:32:03 proving is true than the actual Pursuit
0:32:06 Of Truth and I guess that comes from the
0:32:08 idea that
0:32:09 currently in society or at least in the
0:32:12 philosophical paradigm
0:32:14 post-modernism doesn't have a
0:32:15 conceptualization that there is anything
0:32:16 absolutely true to be indeed worked out
0:32:20 yes so in that case you're kind of I I
0:32:24 call them kind of buildings without
0:32:26 foundations you construct very very nice
0:32:29 sophisticated structures but they're not
0:32:32 rooted in anything or for anything and I
0:32:35 guess in the Islamic tradition
0:32:37 I was actually reading
0:32:39 um al-ghazali he's got these very short
0:32:41 books
0:32:42 um letters to a disciple is one of them
0:32:44 and my beloved Son is another one yeah
0:32:48 very very I mean I think I have it to
0:32:52 hand somewhere uh I do here
0:32:55 got it yeah so this these little short
0:32:58 books that you can read
0:33:00 and I think somewhere he talks about
0:33:03 knowledge
0:33:05 um but it kind of he says that knowledge
0:33:08 without action
0:33:10 um
0:33:12 I should find the page but it's it's uh
0:33:15 kind of knowledge without action is
0:33:19 um pointless in a sense and action
0:33:21 without knowledge is misdirected or
0:33:24 without kind of it will lead you astray
0:33:27 and I think this is something that in
0:33:29 traditional Societies or religious
0:33:31 societies
0:33:33 was very much
0:33:35 understood that knowledge for the sake
0:33:37 of knowledge
0:33:38 doesn't do anything for the human
0:33:40 condition but yes knowledge should
0:33:43 always be directed towards something and
0:33:46 then there's this this kind of
0:33:47 distinction between knowledge and wisdom
0:33:50 yes and and this is I think where
0:33:53 perhaps modern society places the
0:33:55 intellect
0:33:56 above we don't believe in the soul
0:33:58 anymore but if you do believe in the
0:33:59 soul
0:34:00 or spirituality
0:34:02 and I think if you want to come back to
0:34:04 again the Islamic
0:34:06 tradition or the Christian tradition you
0:34:08 know the the devil
0:34:09 shaytan he knows everything there is to
0:34:12 know
0:34:13 he's supremely smart he's super super
0:34:16 clever you know he he can see the Unseen
0:34:20 even more than we can
0:34:22 um
0:34:23 and he has all this intellect but it
0:34:25 doesn't make him believe or submit
0:34:28 submit yeah because he believes in God
0:34:30 he believes in God he he he knows God
0:34:34 but he still doesn't
0:34:36 follow what God asks him to do which is
0:34:39 which is kind of where you can see
0:34:43 um the separation between knowledge and
0:34:45 wisdom because a wise person adheres to
0:34:47 what God is asking them to do right but
0:34:50 orientalists are very very knowledgeable
0:34:51 they know they might know more about
0:34:53 Islam than the common Muslim
0:34:55 yeah they don't reap any of the rewards
0:34:57 that it has to offer no
0:35:00 intellectual exercise yeah just
0:35:02 interesting knowledge but Islam is
0:35:03 calling for a moral context for our
0:35:05 knowledge that why are we doing these
0:35:07 things what benefits do they bring to us
0:35:09 rather than just acquiring knowledge for
0:35:12 for knowledge's sake which is ultimately
0:35:14 futile and not profitable
0:35:16 um no that's quite an interesting
0:35:18 distinction you're making and and this
0:35:20 is what I would say is um
0:35:22 modern philosophy or modern education in
0:35:26 general
0:35:27 why do we learn you know why am I doing
0:35:31 physics
0:35:33 why am I doing English literature why do
0:35:36 I go to work the question of why seems
0:35:39 to have somehow got lost along the way
0:35:41 and the answer in the modern world
0:35:43 doesn't seem to be very satisfactory
0:35:46 um to me at least
0:35:48 you know a lot of the people I did
0:35:51 physics with now are Bankers or
0:35:54 or 50 of them have gone into the city as
0:35:57 a consultant or a banker
0:35:59 um whereas traditionally
0:36:01 that's what you do right right whereas
0:36:04 uh someone like uh IBN Cena or or some
0:36:07 of you know some of our famous
0:36:09 cosmologists or or physicists did
0:36:11 physics because it brought them closer
0:36:13 to Allah they did it because they gained
0:36:16 knowledge of creation yes constantly
0:36:20 points to the courage and order as a
0:36:22 place of signs that indicate that a
0:36:25 meaningful that they they bring us
0:36:27 closer to God and so on and so forth
0:36:29 it's not just uh just interested
0:36:31 accumulation of facts it actually has a
0:36:34 wider existential context
0:36:37 why do you do physics at Oxford if I may
0:36:40 ask you that's a great question
0:36:42 I did physics my dad actually wanted me
0:36:44 to be a lawyer if we're talking about my
0:36:46 kind of biography but I did physics at
0:36:49 University I demanded grad at Imperial
0:36:52 College and I did it because it was the
0:36:54 only thing that truly surprised me in
0:36:55 the classroom it was intellectual
0:36:57 curiosity you know other subjects I was
0:36:59 I was quite good at
0:37:01 um I even did history for a level which
0:37:03 is not common for people who go into
0:37:04 Sciences
0:37:06 um but physics was you know the only
0:37:09 subject that really piqued my interest
0:37:11 surprised me gave me something to think
0:37:13 about other things were just kind of
0:37:15 regurgitation of knowledge or knowledge
0:37:17 for the sake of knowledge
0:37:19 why not Philosophy for example I mean
0:37:22 that I mean
0:37:24 it's a great question I think if I could
0:37:26 go back I'd do physics and philosophy at
0:37:27 Oxford but
0:37:29 um I didn't know that this is where my
0:37:32 intellectual curiosity actually lay I I
0:37:35 wasn't exposed to it at school like I
0:37:37 said you don't get to do philosophy very
0:37:38 much at school
0:37:40 had to be in France where it is very
0:37:42 much part of the curricula I know yeah
0:37:44 but not here unfortunately in the UK no
0:37:47 and
0:37:48 but throughout the course of my study of
0:37:51 physics I realized I wasn't so much
0:37:53 interested I I enjoyed the Elegance of
0:37:56 physics in describing the universe but I
0:37:58 wasn't actually so interested in
0:38:01 physics
0:38:03 I was more it was a deeper interest in I
0:38:06 think in finding some kind of meaning or
0:38:09 beauty in the world
0:38:11 perhaps I think that's kind of where my
0:38:13 desire to do physics came from and it's
0:38:16 probably been the focus of most of my
0:38:19 intellectual studies in my life now I do
0:38:21 a very particular kind of physics I do
0:38:23 I make solar panels so it's called
0:38:25 condensed matter physics and so it's not
0:38:28 theoretical physics it's not what people
0:38:29 think of like Einstein and those people
0:38:31 who describe the universe for the sake
0:38:35 of describing the universe mine is a
0:38:37 very practical form of physics where I
0:38:38 try to apply my knowledge to do
0:38:40 something that I think will contribute
0:38:43 positively to society that's why I did
0:38:45 my PhD I was actually going to go into
0:38:47 Finance I mock my friends now but I was
0:38:49 on the same path uh but I just thought
0:38:52 if I wanted to live a meaningful life
0:38:54 then I would rather do something I
0:38:56 thought had benefit to people using my
0:38:59 knowledge
0:39:00 than simply kind of going and
0:39:03 accumulating quite a lot of wealth yes
0:39:07 um
0:39:07 yeah so that's kind of like that's a
0:39:10 very a very beautiful answer um can I um
0:39:13 just come back to physics in itself for
0:39:16 a second and just quite a paragraph from
0:39:19 um John paulkinghorn's book as we know
0:39:21 he's was professor of mathematical
0:39:22 physics at uh Cambridge before he became
0:39:25 a a Christian priest and a theologian of
0:39:27 equal distinction I I would I would say
0:39:29 and there's a fascinating paragraph here
0:39:31 in in this uh book which is Faith
0:39:33 science and understanding
0:39:36 um about Quantum cosmology and the
0:39:38 anthropic principle
0:39:40 um and this is due to the fine tuning of
0:39:41 the laws of physics and how do we
0:39:43 understand these what do these tell us
0:39:45 about the universe and I just want to
0:39:47 get your Reflections on what he said if
0:39:49 you don't mind uh Pokemon writes the
0:39:52 fine-tuning of the laws of nature that
0:39:54 is necessary if the physical fabric of
0:39:56 the world is to be capable of eventually
0:39:59 evolving carbon-based life is an
0:40:03 anticipated unanticipated Insight first
0:40:06 recognized by science scientists in the
0:40:08 early 1970s
0:40:10 there's been much discussion of its
0:40:12 possible meta-scientific significance
0:40:15 John Leslie this is he's a philosopher
0:40:17 by the way reached a judicious
0:40:19 conclusion when he stated that these
0:40:22 remarkable coincidences call for some
0:40:25 form of further explanation whose
0:40:28 character could take one of two
0:40:31 different rational forms and this is
0:40:33 where it gets interesting either is the
0:40:36 first option there are many different
0:40:38 universes each with a different set of
0:40:40 natural laws and circumstances and we
0:40:43 simply live in the one where by chance
0:40:45 our Evolution has in fact been a
0:40:48 possibility to the multi-universe theory
0:40:51 or the second version or the option
0:40:53 rather there is a single Universe whose
0:40:57 endowment with fruitful potentiality
0:41:00 is the expression of the will of the
0:41:02 Creator who has brought it into being
0:41:06 and then uh poking horse says if this
0:41:09 analysis is accepted as I think it
0:41:10 should be those who wish to avoid a
0:41:14 religious conclusion will have to opt
0:41:16 for the Multiverse explanation their
0:41:19 case would then be strengthened if they
0:41:22 were able to reduce further reasons for
0:41:24 belief in this vast portfolio of other
0:41:28 worlds I love his language a vast
0:41:30 portfolio of other worlds otherwise it
0:41:32 will simply appear as an ad hoc
0:41:35 stratagem of anti-religious intent after
0:41:39 all theists believers in God can point
0:41:42 to several other reasons for their
0:41:44 belief in God such as the existence of
0:41:47 cosmic order and the existence of
0:41:49 religious experience
0:41:52 so
0:41:53 obviously the atheists go for Multiverse
0:41:56 and uh I mean I'm not even sure that
0:41:58 Multiverse is somehow an anti-theist
0:42:00 argument anyway but I I I'm at the end
0:42:04 of the day but what are your Reflections
0:42:06 and responses to parking horns
0:42:07 characterization of this issue
0:42:09 I mean again it sounds exactly like him
0:42:12 uh very well written almost almost
0:42:15 humorous in a very subtle way yeah um
0:42:18 precisely
0:42:20 but what I would say is if you consider
0:42:22 what a Multiverse is asking you to
0:42:24 believe in
0:42:25 it's asking you to believe that there
0:42:27 are infinitely many causally unconnected
0:42:32 universes of which we
0:42:36 um exist in one which has the particular
0:42:39 set of
0:42:41 um
0:42:42 conditions required for
0:42:46 let's take a step back not even just for
0:42:48 life to exist
0:42:49 but if the gravitational
0:42:52 the gravitational constant which is the
0:42:54 strength of the gravitational force
0:42:58 is slightly different
0:43:01 the universe matter cannot Clump
0:43:03 together so the universe either come
0:43:05 turns back into a ball so the expansion
0:43:08 kind of halts and comes back or it
0:43:10 accelerates away so rapidly that you
0:43:14 can't even get thing bits of matter to
0:43:17 stick together so no planets no stars
0:43:19 nothing we just have kind of dust right
0:43:23 so take that even further and then think
0:43:26 about the other conditions required for
0:43:28 life to form
0:43:30 it's a very very unique universe that we
0:43:33 we live in but the reason I mentioned
0:43:36 causally unconnected what that means is
0:43:39 if you study Physics or even philosophy
0:43:41 things which are causally unconnected
0:43:43 are outside the realm of scientific
0:43:46 investigation
0:43:48 so
0:43:50 if something is causally unconnected
0:43:52 right essentially I cannot it cannot
0:43:56 influence me and I cannot influence it
0:44:00 to use that language means that I in my
0:44:03 understanding of the Multiverse
0:44:05 you have to create you I don't think
0:44:08 it's empirically verifiable if that
0:44:10 makes sense
0:44:12 you can't verify in the same way you
0:44:15 cannot verify the existence of God
0:44:16 empirically
0:44:18 you cannot do scientific investigations
0:44:22 you could construct a theory and I think
0:44:23 people do this they construct very
0:44:25 elaborate theories using mathematics
0:44:27 Etc about how the Multiverse could exist
0:44:30 and whatnot but they aren't they're no
0:44:33 different to something like the Kalam
0:44:35 cosmological argument
0:44:37 or some which are based on certain
0:44:39 logical principles
0:44:41 um to use that language and then you
0:44:44 have to ask yourself again Paul the
0:44:45 question that we've said before do you
0:44:49 want to believe in God are you willing
0:44:51 to accept the existence of God which is
0:44:52 what Professor poking horn is kind of
0:44:54 referring to that
0:44:55 or do you want to you know and if you
0:44:58 think about Occam's razor for example
0:45:00 it's something that people cite in the
0:45:02 west as this kind of you know William
0:45:05 Moroccan was actually I think a
0:45:06 Christian wasn't it yeah is it in
0:45:08 English as well but anyway yes that's
0:45:10 not the problem but anyway
0:45:12 um they speak about this kind of uh
0:45:16 things believe in the simplest
0:45:18 explanation is the best one don't
0:45:19 necessarily multiple explanations the
0:45:21 simplest one yes I think by Multiverse
0:45:23 right the Multiverse is something that
0:45:26 you can construct in order to avoid the
0:45:29 most intuitive conclusion which is that
0:45:32 yes we are special
0:45:34 and there is a special specialness to
0:45:36 our universe and to human beings and
0:45:39 this is one thing that's symptomatic I
0:45:40 think of an atheistic position right is
0:45:44 this idea that everything is
0:45:45 coincidental and that human beings
0:45:47 aren't special we aren't special nothing
0:45:49 is special nothing is sacred
0:45:51 that it's a very unromantic very gray
0:45:54 colorless view of the world which
0:45:56 doesn't fit well with human intuition if
0:45:58 you want to use language like fitra
0:46:00 intuition is I think suitable in this
0:46:03 place where if you just look at the
0:46:05 magnificence of creation yeah
0:46:08 intuitively internalize it
0:46:11 the quranic injection look at the sky
0:46:13 how we've made it without riffs and how
0:46:15 we've adorned it yeah you know if you
0:46:17 simply gaze at the stars and this is why
0:46:20 so many cosmologists were religious
0:46:22 because they looked at the universe and
0:46:25 they saw Beauty real Beauty you know in
0:46:29 intuitive internal
0:46:31 aesthetic sense of how magnificent it is
0:46:34 and even if you take cold Beauty which I
0:46:37 refer to as kind of how one wonderfully
0:46:40 fine-tuned the universe is those numbers
0:46:42 that are precise precise to 100 decimal
0:46:44 places and that if you change the last
0:46:46 decimal place the universe doesn't form
0:46:49 the way we need it to to exist that's a
0:46:52 type of beauty as well
0:46:54 then if you can combine the two and yeah
0:46:57 so you just say the use the word beauty
0:46:58 there and I'm struck I mean poking horn
0:47:00 uses this word as a as a mathematical
0:47:02 physicist he talks about the elegance
0:47:04 and beauty of mathematical equations and
0:47:08 that the that one of the uh I think I
0:47:11 think I'm not misrepresenting him what
0:47:13 one of the indications of the truth of
0:47:15 mathematical hypothesis uh is its beauty
0:47:18 you know if it's a very ugly
0:47:21 um equation this is an indicator that's
0:47:25 probably not true it's not accurate it's
0:47:26 not actually going to work and I thought
0:47:28 how interesting the aesthetic
0:47:30 considerations like that actually factor
0:47:32 in is evaluation of mathematical formula
0:47:34 and nevertheless that's what he said I
0:47:36 think absolutely and and simplicity
0:47:40 of
0:47:41 uh mathematical equations or physical
0:47:44 equations is held in very high regard
0:47:47 the reason Einstein Einstein's not only
0:47:51 correct
0:47:52 but he's beautiful I studied general
0:47:54 relativity his his construction
0:47:57 his ability to essentially describe
0:48:00 gravity in four lines or fourth
0:48:03 equations E equals m c squared is
0:48:07 incredible beautiful tiny little
0:48:09 statement exactly exactly the this is
0:48:13 what I'm referring to it's how do you
0:48:15 want to view the world and it is it has
0:48:18 to be a desire right there isn't I think
0:48:20 people
0:48:21 have this conception that all science is
0:48:24 somehow objective no it has inherently a
0:48:28 way of looking at the world and it
0:48:30 forces you to look at a world a certain
0:48:32 way but you can choose to see the signs
0:48:35 or see it as coincidence you know the
0:48:38 human being is not separate from the
0:48:40 science the way we look at the world
0:48:42 yeah
0:48:43 is is inbuilt Into The Way We describe
0:48:47 it
0:48:48 and and this is why I think Muslims
0:48:51 don't have as much Muslim scientists
0:48:53 Abdul Salam was a very famous scientist
0:48:56 at Imperial College who got the Nobel
0:48:58 Prize for discover for unifying the
0:49:00 electro uh the weak Force
0:49:03 um with the electromagnetic force I
0:49:05 believe
0:49:06 he was a devout Muslim and and Muslims
0:49:10 don't have such an issue because I think
0:49:13 really what's happened is there's a
0:49:15 disenchantment in the west with religion
0:49:17 well firstly with Christianity and
0:49:19 that's been put out to all religion
0:49:21 whereas in Islam when we've not quite
0:49:23 reached that point yet and our arguments
0:49:25 being made whether we're going there or
0:49:27 not but people still our theology is
0:49:30 very simple uh and I'll wait I have an
0:49:33 intuition that it's not going to happen
0:49:34 like that
0:49:36 I just get the sense that Islam is is
0:49:39 getting ever more popular it's growing
0:49:41 yes and it's becoming more
0:49:42 intellectually sophisticated and robust
0:49:44 where is interactions for schedule a bus
0:49:45 I should say in order to go to the Past
0:49:47 great traditional Scholars but today now
0:49:51 um who I'm incredibly impressed with you
0:49:52 mentioned but there are other people
0:49:55 many other people as well and and I
0:49:57 think I think it won't just because it
0:49:58 happened to Christianity doesn't mean
0:50:00 it's going to happen to Islam No no
0:50:01 absolutely but this disenchantment with
0:50:04 the institution of the church yes
0:50:07 has led to uh you know you know when
0:50:12 Nietzsche says God is dead he's kind of
0:50:14 referring to in the heart of the
0:50:16 Europeans around him you know no one
0:50:18 really believes in God in that they
0:50:20 don't act like they believe in God
0:50:22 anymore
0:50:23 and and it's not in his view I think
0:50:26 it's not it's no longer a sophisticated
0:50:28 way for human beings to actualize their
0:50:31 potential yes uh Christian the model
0:50:33 that Christianity presents whereas Islam
0:50:35 and science within Islam serves a
0:50:38 purpose a fundamental purpose which is
0:50:40 to bring us everything really should be
0:50:42 an Endeavor to bring you closer to your
0:50:44 creator exactly and indeed himself
0:50:47 actually has some positive things to say
0:50:48 about Islam actually he wasn't good uh
0:50:50 just it's of all religion although he
0:50:52 was in a sense but but when he came to
0:50:54 Islam uh paradoxically he also said some
0:50:56 very positive things about it so yeah
0:50:58 yeah he viewed it as World affirming
0:51:00 rather than World denouncing which is
0:51:02 how he viewed Christianity exactly um
0:51:04 and
0:51:05 but the the point is that science within
0:51:07 Islam
0:51:09 um doesn't create cognitive dissonance
0:51:11 in the mind or didn't traditionally it
0:51:13 does now when young Muslims do science
0:51:14 in the west right because they're
0:51:16 influenced by these other things we've
0:51:18 been talking about these metaphysical
0:51:19 assumptions but if your metaphysics is
0:51:22 rooted in strong Aki the strong Islamic
0:51:26 theology
0:51:27 then you don't get LED astray in fact I
0:51:30 think it really serves to strength in
0:51:32 your faith when you see how amazing the
0:51:35 universe is it doesn't even apply to
0:51:36 Muslims someone like Anthony flew who is
0:51:38 a very famous atheist when he saw when
0:51:42 he came to understand how fine-tuned the
0:51:45 universe was
0:51:46 he began to believe in a God not in a
0:51:49 religious
0:51:52 they've got an Aristotle he was an agent
0:51:54 yes
0:51:55 he became convinced that this isn't just
0:51:58 uh some kind of cosmic coincidence that
0:52:02 there is design or purpose I think it
0:52:04 was DNA the structure of DNA is
0:52:07 complexity here in the clear exhibited
0:52:09 signs of design uh rather than just
0:52:11 random mutations and so on yeah and and
0:52:14 so it's it you know and it it's really
0:52:17 interesting where certain atheists or
0:52:21 non-believers or whatever draw their
0:52:22 lines I think if you keep probing at
0:52:24 people gently and and I don't really
0:52:27 believe in debate
0:52:28 in a sense
0:52:29 um because I think you can get very
0:52:31 quickly attached to your position and it
0:52:34 becomes about winning rather than about
0:52:35 the truth
0:52:36 as big as Connor every week yes and so I
0:52:40 I don't really engage in that kind of
0:52:41 thing but within my group I people often
0:52:44 speak to me about science and I'm sorry
0:52:47 about religion and Science and they're
0:52:49 off I'm often astounded by how many
0:52:51 people are actually just agnostic there
0:52:53 aren't there aren't many atheists shouty
0:52:55 loud atheists going around
0:52:58 uh a lot of people in my group they're
0:53:02 very pleasant firstly I would say I
0:53:03 don't hold this view that atheists or
0:53:06 agnostics are bad people No in fact
0:53:09 actually many of them are very good
0:53:10 people with with what I would say is
0:53:12 slightly misguided
0:53:13 um they have good intentions and
0:53:15 slightly misplaced their good intentions
0:53:18 um
0:53:19 a lot of them just want to be nice and
0:53:21 have a review of the world that thought
0:53:23 allows you to be nice to other people
0:53:25 and care for other people particularly
0:53:26 in my field of work which is renewable
0:53:27 energy a lot of these people are
0:53:29 motivated by trying to help others
0:53:31 and they engage very easily and openly
0:53:35 in in dialogue with me and you'd be so I
0:53:37 go I'm surprised as to how far people
0:53:40 are willing to go towards believing in
0:53:42 God it's not actually that hard for a
0:53:44 lot of people even scientists
0:53:46 yeah but it usually comes down to they
0:53:49 don't like the morality
0:53:51 if I'm being honest the the the moral
0:53:54 injunctions is where people fall down
0:53:56 quite often
0:53:59 or the yeah it's essentially the way
0:54:01 that they live life now is how they feel
0:54:04 like they should live life right
0:54:06 uh and they don't want to go all the way
0:54:10 so that's this uh about this issue again
0:54:12 of the unwillingness of the human being
0:54:15 to submit to God yeah you can entertain
0:54:18 the Dia's conception maybe maybe not
0:54:20 whatever but the actual practical
0:54:22 existential submission to the Creator is
0:54:25 is a step too far
0:54:27 well and that's why you have you know I
0:54:29 would kind of
0:54:31 pseudo-spirituality in many parts of the
0:54:34 world Western World now people are very
0:54:38 interested in Buddhism Hinduism
0:54:40 meditation uh
0:54:43 the taoism I myself during my journey
0:54:46 read uh The Power of Now by Eckhart
0:54:48 Tolle which is an interesting book uh he
0:54:51 brought some Eastern philosophies to the
0:54:52 where someone like Alan Watts is perhaps
0:54:54 more famous in the UK
0:54:56 um
0:54:57 and they one thing I think people are
0:55:00 realizing is this cold unromantic View
0:55:03 of the world and of human beings doesn't
0:55:05 fit well with what human beings actually
0:55:08 need you know this idea of looking for
0:55:11 meaning in a meaningless world
0:55:13 the absurdist argument that I think
0:55:15 Thomas Nagel has kind of described
0:55:18 um
0:55:19 you we need something to plug that Gap
0:55:23 science doesn't offer it to us as much
0:55:25 as it may try we can't look to science
0:55:27 and even though someone like Sam Harris
0:55:29 tries to
0:55:30 it's really hard to look to science for
0:55:32 Morality an explanation of Aesthetics of
0:55:36 of other really essential things to the
0:55:39 condition of the human being and by what
0:55:42 what I think scientism has done has made
0:55:44 the human being very one-dimensional if
0:55:47 you are purposeless fundamentally
0:55:49 purposeless
0:55:51 then it's really hard to figure out how
0:55:52 you should live your life and what you
0:55:53 should do with your life and what your
0:55:56 daily practices should be
0:55:58 and I said what I do see a lot is a kind
0:56:01 of sadness within within human beings in
0:56:04 general but within a lot of people who
0:56:05 don't have religious framework I see a
0:56:08 lot of trying to distract yourself from
0:56:10 what you view as the suffering around
0:56:12 you uh in the world or you don't have a
0:56:15 way to cope with it that's very
0:56:17 Sophisticated You may uh engage in is
0:56:20 kind of like soft Hedonism it's kind of
0:56:22 if I as long as I'm not hurting other
0:56:24 people but I'm seeking pleasure and I'm
0:56:27 I'm in a job that I feel like is
0:56:29 enjoyable then that's the way I should
0:56:30 try and live my life but it still
0:56:32 doesn't work for most people and if you
0:56:34 look at depression in the United Kingdom
0:56:36 which is where we live it's on the rise
0:56:38 and by 2030 it'll be the biggest kind of
0:56:41 illness
0:56:42 uh According to some of the NHS
0:56:44 statistics
0:56:45 so it seems like this one-dimensional
0:56:48 cold view I call it cold and unromantic
0:56:51 view of human beings rooted in
0:56:56 what was recently up until recently I
0:56:59 would say holding science as the only
0:57:01 form of knowledge which is acceptable
0:57:04 um or the only type of belief which is
0:57:07 certain I think that's something as well
0:57:09 really doesn't help us very much as
0:57:12 human beings no it's very interesting um
0:57:15 I'd like to share um uh another author
0:57:19 in fact a mutual friend of ours
0:57:21 um Dr shabir actor of the University of
0:57:24 Oxford he's a a Muslim philosopher
0:57:27 actually his PhD is in Kierkegaard which
0:57:29 I thought was incredible when I first
0:57:31 encountered him I thought a muslim with
0:57:33 a PhD in God how how exotic
0:57:36 um being a 19th century uh Danish
0:57:38 Christian philosopher who's actually
0:57:39 extremely interesting I understand why
0:57:41 he studied him actually by the way in
0:57:43 this this particular book one of my
0:57:44 all-time favorite books I keep on saying
0:57:47 this but I really mean it the Quran and
0:57:48 the secular mind a philosophy of Islam
0:57:51 is actually on um one of Tim Winter's uh
0:57:55 recommended books lists and Cambridge
0:57:58 University uh under the he has three
0:58:01 categories introductory intermediate and
0:58:02 advanced reading in his recommended
0:58:04 reading list this is on the list under
0:58:06 Advanced reading
0:58:08 um but it is uh a is very eloquent in
0:58:11 the way that poking horn is eloquent uh
0:58:13 shabby actor is also very eloquent
0:58:16 um and I thought it'd be helpful
0:58:18 uh just to quote um some words from this
0:58:22 book by shabbir actor when he contrasts
0:58:24 The Chronic worldview with this
0:58:27 scientific perspective
0:58:28 now he does a very interesting way uh in
0:58:32 a very kind of oppositional way but but
0:58:34 ultimately it's in a way that I think is
0:58:36 helpful for the believer be they Muslim
0:58:39 or even non-muslim actually because I
0:58:40 think a a Christian could probably
0:58:42 affirm what he's saying as well I like
0:58:45 it if I may just read a bit from it um
0:58:48 and obviously you're welcome to give
0:58:49 your view on it so Shabbat Agra writes
0:58:51 the quranic like the biblical worldview
0:58:54 conflicts with the scientific
0:58:56 perspective which assumes that the
0:58:59 cosmos the universe is a self-contained
0:59:02 set of patterned empirical sequences
0:59:05 intelligible to us in terms of natural
0:59:09 causality
0:59:10 the spatial temporal Continuum is
0:59:13 subject to discoverable lawful
0:59:16 regularity
0:59:18 recently probability laws couched in
0:59:21 statistical terms replaced the older
0:59:24 laws of causality as physical
0:59:27 indeterminacy complicated the picture at
0:59:30 the subatomic level
0:59:32 a metaphysic of events now supplants the
0:59:37 older metaphysic of natural objects or
0:59:40 substances
0:59:42 uncomplicatedly locatable in
0:59:44 three-dimensional space
0:59:46 but nature remains autonomous and
0:59:49 self-sustaining
0:59:51 Islam
0:59:53 posits an additional Supernatural realm
0:59:56 and denies the autonomy of nature
0:59:59 directly actively and continuously God
1:00:03 sustains the world after creating it
1:00:06 he prevents the lowest Heaven our sky
1:00:09 from collapsing on sinful Humanity
1:00:13 arranges the clouds directs the winds
1:00:16 that give rain and revive the dead Earth
1:00:19 hold the birds poised in mid-air and
1:00:23 keeps the two Seas separate lots of
1:00:26 chronic references here which I've not
1:00:28 mentioned uh in this because it'd be too
1:00:29 cumbersome otherwise and it concludes
1:00:31 the quranic cosmology
1:00:35 presupposes continuous interaction
1:00:37 between the natural causal world and the
1:00:41 supranatural realm of a cult causality
1:00:45 by the way they've got a cult because I
1:00:46 think the cult means hidden we can't
1:00:48 perceive it causality means cause and
1:00:50 effect so the the Quran supposes there's
1:00:53 interaction between these two Dimensions
1:00:55 the natural causal world and the Supra
1:00:58 natural realm of a cult causality
1:01:01 Supernatural agents routinely act within
1:01:05 an interpenetrate the natural world of
1:01:09 empirical causality
1:01:12 the Jinn Elemental Spirits found in the
1:01:15 intricate Nexus of Arabic poetry
1:01:18 possession and Madness are integral to
1:01:21 the pre-islamic Outlook and remain part
1:01:25 of modern Islam indeed Iblis the Devil
1:01:29 is a gin created from fire his arrogant
1:01:33 free world here we go this arrogant Free
1:01:35 Will led him to freely reject God's rule
1:01:39 so he's not an atheist he won't submit
1:01:41 he isn't he is an actively malicious
1:01:45 agent in human history God too is active
1:01:48 he shapes the embryo in the womb as he
1:01:51 pleases and removes The Souls of
1:01:54 Sleepers at night so that each day is a
1:01:57 fresh resurrection of The Souls of those
1:02:00 destined to live are returned to life
1:02:03 until an appointed hour to in the
1:02:06 spiritual interaction between the two
1:02:09 worlds human petition prayer piety pure
1:02:14 speech and Good Deeds Ascend to the
1:02:17 Unseen World
1:02:19 end quote I could go on it's just you
1:02:22 put this picture is incompatible with
1:02:24 modern science because he says that
1:02:25 scientists feel obliged to reject on
1:02:27 principle the possible existence of God
1:02:30 the devil indeed all Spirits including
1:02:33 those of The Departed dead the Jinn
1:02:35 demons angels and other immaterial or
1:02:39 incorporeal entities lacking space-time
1:02:43 coordinates as you can't measure them
1:02:46 um now I could go on and on but I I
1:02:48 think that's a very eloquent
1:02:51 um bit of prose
1:02:53 um and another way he talks about the
1:02:54 different dimensions of reality the and
1:02:56 the interaction between them and how
1:02:59 even and there's something you know
1:03:00 physics never would address of course
1:03:03 how human petition prayer piety pure
1:03:05 speech and Good Deeds ascends to the
1:03:08 Unseen World as a marvelous I like that
1:03:11 anyway
1:03:12 no I agree and uh knowing doctors should
1:03:15 be personally
1:03:17 um his uh conviction certainly comes
1:03:20 through in his writing but in a very
1:03:22 eloquent fashion
1:03:24 um one thing I would a reflection upon
1:03:27 perhaps what he has said is I think he's
1:03:29 very much correct what we were referring
1:03:31 to earlier the idea that scientists now
1:03:36 have this Pride which means that they do
1:03:39 not like to accept that there are things
1:03:41 they cannot explain using scientific
1:03:43 methods but one quick kind of Riff not a
1:03:48 refutation but something to ponder for
1:03:51 those and this is something that helped
1:03:52 me for those people who subscribe to
1:03:54 this way of thinking is what in
1:03:58 philosophy is referred to as a hard
1:03:59 problem of Consciousness but it's really
1:04:02 a very simple idea which is if you
1:04:05 just sit with yourself for a while and
1:04:07 do nothing don't even engage with the
1:04:09 outside world
1:04:11 um IBN Cena has the hanging man kind of
1:04:13 experiment that he does but if you just
1:04:16 sit with yourself
1:04:17 and come to terms with how remarkably
1:04:20 special you are and unique you are your
1:04:23 Consciousness this thing
1:04:25 that from which all ideas emerge but I
1:04:28 but and philosophers perhaps agree
1:04:30 cannot be described by an idea or by
1:04:32 language in any meaningful objective way
1:04:35 if you want to use that kind of language
1:04:38 if you think that that is something
1:04:41 which is unseen Consciousness itself is
1:04:44 immaterial unseen if you can accept that
1:04:48 if you can accept
1:04:49 how remarkable your creation is in the
1:04:53 first place and not okay your physical
1:04:55 body is remarkable yes but so is
1:04:58 anything in the physical world but
1:05:00 actually
1:05:01 the emergence of your consciousness
1:05:04 if you can get behind that
1:05:08 and really internalize that
1:05:11 and which is what I think prehistoric
1:05:13 people did pre-modern people I should
1:05:15 say that you know why you have such
1:05:18 sophisticated philosophies about
1:05:21 Consciousness all around the world
1:05:22 whether it be Hinduism or taoism or
1:05:25 Islam or Christianity whatever or
1:05:27 stoicism whatever it is
1:05:29 why are people so fascinated with
1:05:32 Consciousness and why is it that those
1:05:34 deep thinkers as ruminators whether it
1:05:36 be Epictetus or or the Buddha or you
1:05:40 know the prophet peace be upon him when
1:05:42 he goes
1:05:43 uh to the the mountain uh and kind of
1:05:46 stays in seclusion for a while why is it
1:05:48 that when we sit with ourselves for a
1:05:50 little bit of time and why is meditation
1:05:52 now such a popular thing in the West
1:05:54 that we realize that actually we're
1:05:56 really special and Consciousness is
1:05:58 really special and immaterial and kind
1:06:01 of intangible and Indescribable but we
1:06:03 all have this basic assumption that the
1:06:05 Consciousness that I have is the one
1:06:06 that you have or whatever
1:06:08 if you can get behind that existing once
1:06:12 and how special that is I don't find it
1:06:14 too hard a leap to believe in in other
1:06:18 immaterial things or even like reincarn
1:06:20 re Resurrection rather than
1:06:22 reincarnation sorry but Resurrection or
1:06:25 or other Realms of existence
1:06:28 um because even something like time the
1:06:30 perception of time
1:06:32 there were the perception of time isn't
1:06:35 I don't think the perception of time is
1:06:37 necessary for you to experience
1:06:38 Consciousness I think this is in even
1:06:40 seen as kind of hanging man experiment
1:06:42 if you are secluded from your sensory
1:06:45 experiences of the world or even in IBN
1:06:48 to fail has that very famous uh did you
1:06:51 just to point out of people the hanging
1:06:52 man thing is not like a man being hung
1:06:54 like Capital
1:06:56 it's a man suspended without any kind of
1:06:58 support any kind of sensory awareness
1:07:00 apart from his own Consciousness and
1:07:02 it's a very interesting experiment you
1:07:04 can Google it and read the Wikipedia
1:07:06 article on it yeah it's not a man uh by
1:07:09 the neck it's a man who's been suspended
1:07:11 without any uh means of support at all
1:07:13 yeah it's a kind of early idea of
1:07:15 radical skepticism which is adopted
1:07:17 later by people like Descartes and and
1:07:19 if you if you think about that you don't
1:07:24 you wouldn't essentially experience time
1:07:26 in that sense there is a A timelessness
1:07:29 in the present moment there is a there
1:07:33 is
1:07:33 um an ex time is something we
1:07:35 extrapolate and experience moment to
1:07:37 moment but in moment itself you know
1:07:40 even in mathematics you have the idea of
1:07:42 an infinite set of infinitesimal moments
1:07:44 creating something right so if each
1:07:48 moment is infinite in that it doesn't
1:07:50 have
1:07:51 uh time you know time is something we
1:07:53 measure between moments you could say
1:07:55 but each moment itself is infinite then
1:07:57 if you think about these special kind of
1:07:59 things which is what meditation or
1:08:00 prayer
1:08:01 or presence teaches you to experience
1:08:05 then I think you start to regard human
1:08:08 beings as a lot more special than the
1:08:11 current way we look at ourselves or in
1:08:14 the west or in certain parts of the
1:08:15 world we are viewed as and I think it's
1:08:17 fundamental to all human societies
1:08:20 previously that we recognize that we
1:08:22 were special in some way whereas now
1:08:25 we're seen as a cosmic coincidence that
1:08:27 exists for a blip of uh you know a blip
1:08:31 in the universe that just comes and goes
1:08:32 and whilst we're here we should just you
1:08:34 know try and have fun foreign
1:08:44 could you just mention some of the books
1:08:46 that have made a difference to your
1:08:47 thinking maybe contemporary authors or
1:08:48 other authors
1:08:50 um yeah it's significant to you
1:08:54 well I think if we're talking about the
1:08:55 books that helped me regain my faith
1:08:58 um
1:09:00 I mentioned the power of now it's not
1:09:02 even Islamic it's not even really
1:09:03 religious but it it reignited my
1:09:08 um
1:09:09 my thinking that there was something
1:09:11 special about consciousness
1:09:13 and it gave me a way to cope with many
1:09:16 of the interesting things in the world
1:09:18 that I saw this kind of suffering that
1:09:20 human beings have and that we create
1:09:22 narratives in our minds
1:09:24 based on pain and we have the ability to
1:09:26 abstract and extrapolate so if you could
1:09:28 focus on the present moment you can
1:09:30 remove a lot of that suffering
1:09:32 um and that led me to also reading
1:09:34 Marcus Aurelius meditations was quite
1:09:36 good as well
1:09:37 um and I think reading those people it
1:09:40 was a historic a static philosopher
1:09:42 probably the most famous one has ever
1:09:44 lived but a lot of it's not compatible
1:09:46 with faith will come from Faith even
1:09:48 well it's interesting he kind of has
1:09:50 this idea of logos which is the will of
1:09:52 the universe some kind of Direction the
1:09:54 universe and he had this idea of not
1:09:56 being good
1:09:57 because you gain anything or whatever
1:09:59 but being good for the sake of being
1:10:00 good which is quite an Islamic
1:10:02 injunction I would say it's something
1:10:04 we're compelled to do you're not just
1:10:05 good when someone's watching or you're
1:10:07 not just good you're good because it's
1:10:09 virtuous because there is something to
1:10:11 be attained from goodness in and of
1:10:13 itself
1:10:14 um but these kind of thinkers
1:10:19 it was really ironic that the faith
1:10:21 which I had grown up in offered these
1:10:25 insights
1:10:26 but also really sophisticated way to
1:10:29 manifest
1:10:30 that within yourself so whilst these
1:10:33 other philosophies give you a little
1:10:34 indication of how you should behave or
1:10:37 or the state of being you should try to
1:10:40 achieve they don't tell you about uh
1:10:43 your conduct with your parents or
1:10:46 financial conduct or praying five times
1:10:48 a day there wasn't the Practical element
1:10:51 they had they had this kind of abstract
1:10:52 idea of what you should do but no way to
1:10:55 really uh no regime to which you
1:10:58 subscribe yourself and it still wasn't
1:11:00 grounded rigorously in kind of theology
1:11:02 or or real Faith or belief yeah
1:11:06 there's one things that people in the
1:11:07 way stop and don't appreciate about
1:11:09 Islam perhaps they think of what is a
1:11:10 religion but religion is you know what
1:11:12 you do on a Sunday morning is when you
1:11:14 pray when you read the Bible Well Islam
1:11:16 is called The Deen uh which yeah it can
1:11:19 mean religion but it means much more a
1:11:21 way of life it's almost a civilization
1:11:24 as well so it encompasses the financial
1:11:26 uh and in one relationship on parents uh
1:11:29 how one behaves but also things like
1:11:32 governance as well is partly political
1:11:35 um and economic and so on so it is a
1:11:38 Dean a way of life a civilization
1:11:40 historically
1:11:42 um so it really offers that completeness
1:11:44 and holistic uh way of living which a
1:11:47 kind of just a purely spiritual kind of
1:11:50 interiorized personal life doesn't
1:11:53 really offer because it's fine to be
1:11:55 spiritual but what does that mean
1:11:57 economically what does that mean in
1:11:59 terms of passing laws what's it mean in
1:12:01 terms of I mean it doesn't offer
1:12:03 anything of course but Islam does and I
1:12:05 think that Christianity used to that
1:12:06 particularly during the Middle Ages
1:12:07 during the Great medieval period of
1:12:10 Christendom
1:12:11 um it certainly had that character there
1:12:13 not anymore of course the Islam still
1:12:15 retains that character I think
1:12:17 absolutely and and so I think what made
1:12:20 Islam unique and led me my brother
1:12:23 actually my younger brother studies
1:12:24 philosophy at University uh he's a he's
1:12:27 a he's he actually introduced me to your
1:12:29 channel uh Paul oh really yeah yeah and
1:12:33 and he started to read he went through a
1:12:36 similar
1:12:37 Renaissance in his religious conviction
1:12:40 during a few years ago during lockdown
1:12:43 and he he read guy Eaton as a you know
1:12:47 as someone that he came across
1:12:49 of course you have Islam and the destiny
1:12:51 of man oh I'll wheel it out I always do
1:12:53 there we go
1:12:56 yeah at the very least it's a pretty
1:12:57 cover so it's no no Harmony bringing it
1:13:00 out this is true
1:13:02 it's uh it's a fantastic book but
1:13:04 actually the one that I think is even
1:13:06 better is remembering God which is his
1:13:09 other book and it's got a blue cover and
1:13:11 I I've left at University
1:13:14 um but that is really good I think Islam
1:13:17 investing man is a nice comprehensive uh
1:13:20 the first book on Islam by Muslim
1:13:21 anything I ever ever read and I remember
1:13:23 waterstones the Piggly circus uh some
1:13:26 time ago and I read this and thought
1:13:28 this is good what else has he written
1:13:29 and then I read that one
1:13:31 um yeah and before I knew it even though
1:13:33 I was a Christian at the time in reading
1:13:35 it it transformed me and I was Muslim in
1:13:37 my inner being even though ideologically
1:13:40 credily I was still a Christian but it
1:13:42 actually completely changed me and so I
1:13:44 had to kind of connect my head and my
1:13:45 heart in the end
1:13:46 well and and the really cool thing about
1:13:49 guy Eaton is Guyton from if you read the
1:13:53 the introduction to Islam and the
1:13:55 destiny of man
1:13:56 he's a radical skeptic at a very young
1:13:58 age
1:14:00 you know his mother wants him to not be
1:14:03 atheist but to be agnostic to to find
1:14:05 his own answer uh within the world
1:14:09 um and so he disregards everything he's
1:14:12 taught from a very young age and through
1:14:15 a very organic Journey comes to the idea
1:14:17 of Islam and this is a theme that I
1:14:19 think is really interesting when I'm
1:14:22 very fascinated by people who convert to
1:14:23 Islam mainly because I almost feel like
1:14:25 I did a semi-conversion to Islam yeah
1:14:27 you did yeah yes yeah and and if you if
1:14:31 you look at some of the people who
1:14:32 convert to Islam
1:14:34 they do it very organically and very
1:14:37 intuitively I mean I've got
1:14:40 here I've got the road to Mecca by
1:14:42 Muhammad Assad if you've not read that
1:14:44 that's quite another book another great
1:14:45 great classic uh
1:14:47 which is which is good to read I think
1:14:50 because it's not
1:14:51 um this it's not prescriptive it's quite
1:14:54 it's like a novel it's almost a novel
1:14:57 um
1:14:58 absolutely extraordinary but
1:15:00 yeah it that's a good one to read
1:15:03 um again guy Eaton's very good I think
1:15:05 if you were to listen to a podcast I
1:15:07 think listening to someone like Abdul
1:15:09 hakeem's paradigms of leadership on
1:15:12 um there were two that were really good
1:15:14 I think William Williamson is a remote I
1:15:16 mean you could make a film about that
1:15:17 man's life and that would be remarkable
1:15:19 and it's this idea that by going through
1:15:22 the World by a lot of them travel quite
1:15:24 a lot which is interesting to the East
1:15:26 and other places they travel they engage
1:15:28 with nature because guys was uh born in
1:15:31 Switzerland British parents position
1:15:33 came back to London and um Muhammad
1:15:37 Assad of course who is Leopold Vice I
1:15:39 think he was uh
1:15:40 originally he ended up going to Saudi
1:15:43 Arabia and living uh with a Bedouin for
1:15:45 years before he did his famous
1:15:47 translation so these were great
1:15:48 Travelers yes and and weirdly a lot of
1:15:51 them are ambassadors for their Nations
1:15:53 or various Nations and yeah I said was
1:15:55 Ambassador for Pakistan to the United
1:15:56 States
1:16:00 he was a diplomat indeed and I think he
1:16:02 was in Egypt and Jamaica and other
1:16:04 places as well but but the point is when
1:16:06 they travel through the world
1:16:08 on their Journeys and if you read about
1:16:11 what they experience
1:16:12 you can get a flavor for Islam that you
1:16:15 don't necessarily get
1:16:17 um in your community in East London or
1:16:19 Birmingham or wherever you've grown up
1:16:21 you get a very organic feel of what it's
1:16:24 like when an when a group of people have
1:16:26 internalized the teachings of Islam
1:16:30 um and they threw very organic
1:16:33 movements in the world
1:16:35 not through being
1:16:37 um preached to or shouted at
1:16:40 but rather through their own experiences
1:16:42 and Journeys and interactions with
1:16:44 Muslims day-to-day interactions were
1:16:47 convinced of this way of life and this
1:16:49 is one thing I think that is perhaps
1:16:50 lost in our
1:16:52 in our discussions about Islam is we
1:16:55 don't uphold the con the character of
1:16:57 the faith yet we expect people to
1:17:00 perhaps be convinced by it and and if
1:17:03 that is lacking in your local
1:17:05 communities I would say that books are a
1:17:07 really really good way
1:17:09 to get a taste for what it actually
1:17:11 feels like so again I read guy Eaton uh
1:17:15 and and Muhammad Assad it is good as
1:17:17 well and and you can you can just read
1:17:19 about these people's stories
1:17:21 um so that's one type of reading the
1:17:24 other type of reading that I I did was
1:17:25 kind of philosophical reading oh yeah um
1:17:28 and so you know you've got the Divine
1:17:30 Reality by Hamza sources I think if you
1:17:32 are someone who would like it's over
1:17:34 there I'm not going to get up and get it
1:17:35 but considering it helped consider it
1:17:38 held up yes
1:17:40 um if you need if you're if your issues
1:17:43 with Islam are
1:17:45 um philosophical if they are the types
1:17:48 of doubts they're a philosophical or
1:17:49 theological then that's an excellent
1:17:52 read for someone who's not trained in
1:17:54 philosophy to get a grasp for what Islam
1:17:58 offers as a comprehensive solution to
1:18:01 Life's deepest questions and what the
1:18:03 current Western uh alternatives are so
1:18:06 materialism or philosophical naturalism
1:18:09 or whatever these other ideas are and
1:18:12 what does Islam offer as our
1:18:15 um and as Hamza puts it our more
1:18:17 intuitive and more all-encompassing
1:18:21 um
1:18:22 you've got this they've got the fixer
1:18:24 and then you've got the the total the
1:18:26 totality yeah there is an Occam's razor
1:18:29 kind of element to it where the Islamic
1:18:32 conception of God and our philosophy
1:18:34 doesn't feel so disconnected and so so
1:18:39 sophisticated to the point where you
1:18:41 can't understand what's going on uh it
1:18:44 has this very
1:18:45 it fits very well with the human being
1:18:47 and then and then it kind of answers all
1:18:50 possible questions and whether or not
1:18:52 you want to accept those answers Hamza
1:18:54 says is a different point entirely but
1:18:56 if you want to understand that we have
1:18:59 um we have good answers to Life's
1:19:03 questions
1:19:04 then that's a good comprehensive book
1:19:06 for you to read I think he's revising
1:19:09 some things that he would like to adapt
1:19:11 now there are certain chapters he may
1:19:13 come up with a new addition soon uh I I
1:19:16 I I think there are certain things that
1:19:18 he would like to readdress but broadly
1:19:21 speaking I found it to be very very
1:19:22 engaging quite fun uh and and not not
1:19:26 sophisticated in the way that some
1:19:28 philosophy can be that you can't read it
1:19:30 if you're not trained in philosophy I I
1:19:33 think it's just just very briefly uh one
1:19:34 of the things you say it answers all
1:19:36 these questions it's one thing I found
1:19:37 about Christianity as a Christian that
1:19:39 it didn't really have any good answers
1:19:41 some really serious questions like the
1:19:42 problem of evil you know why do we
1:19:44 suffer God loves us is a Christian you
1:19:47 know God loves us he's a loving God he's
1:19:48 loving father okay well why is my
1:19:50 where's my granny dying of cancer why is
1:19:52 his childhood yeah he didn't it doesn't
1:19:53 actually have an answer if you if you
1:19:55 Google this for questions you look at
1:19:56 what the Archbishop of Canterbury has
1:19:58 said about this issue but basically they
1:20:00 shrug their shoulders and they say well
1:20:02 God knows we don't know we have no idea
1:20:04 why now that that's fine and that sounds
1:20:06 like job actually in the in the Old
1:20:08 Testament he he after all these chapters
1:20:10 about all these eventually God speaks
1:20:12 out of the Whirlwind and comes up with
1:20:14 very little actually it doesn't say very
1:20:16 much Islam however does have I think
1:20:18 very satisfying answers both
1:20:20 intellectually and existentially
1:20:23 um and that was one of the extraordinary
1:20:25 um Revelations to me uh encountering
1:20:28 Islam was that he did have answers which
1:20:30 made sense
1:20:32 um to the problem of suffering the
1:20:33 problem of evil in the world and uh I
1:20:36 thought wow a very Christian would
1:20:37 because she actually would take these or
1:20:39 Nick them or do anything with them it
1:20:40 doesn't it just ignores the answers uh
1:20:43 which could be incorporated in
1:20:45 Christianity I think
1:20:47 yeah and I think there are doctrines in
1:20:49 Christianity like uh which are quite
1:20:52 world denouncing as we've said before
1:20:54 yeah
1:20:55 um original sin is something that people
1:20:56 cite quite easily and so there's this
1:20:58 idea that the world is somewhat
1:21:00 inherently bad in some Christian
1:21:02 theology oh yeah which we don't have in
1:21:04 Islam in us the world is
1:21:07 a reflection of God's majesty and beauty
1:21:11 and you know that's why the world looks
1:21:12 so nice but then we're also tested uh
1:21:15 through trial and tribulation and it's a
1:21:17 path through which everything is in my
1:21:19 conceptualization of Islam I would say
1:21:21 although not trained I would I would
1:21:23 like to caveat that there are people who
1:21:24 could speak from uh more sophisticatedly
1:21:27 than I can about these things but I
1:21:29 would say life seems to be a journey
1:21:31 towards achieving proximity with God
1:21:34 uh and and if you and you do that not
1:21:37 just by engaging with the Beauty and the
1:21:40 goodness of the world but also by making
1:21:42 yourself
1:21:43 strong and resilient to the difficulties
1:21:47 and trials of the world right you
1:21:49 require both both are necessary parts
1:21:52 and different people have different
1:21:53 amounts of both
1:21:54 and uniquely
1:21:57 set amounts so that they can achieve the
1:21:59 proximity that they require is a unique
1:22:02 test for each individual
1:22:03 but if you if you try and this is one
1:22:07 thing I've found if you Endeavor in the
1:22:09 path of trying to get close to it to God
1:22:13 then there isn't there is a a
1:22:15 supernatural Aid that you will encounter
1:22:18 somewhere along the way which makes it
1:22:20 far easier for you it did not take me
1:22:21 very long Paul to regain my faith with
1:22:24 the degree of certainty which I'd never
1:22:25 experienced in anything before gosh uh I
1:22:29 would say a few months perhaps a few
1:22:31 months of sincere endeavor
1:22:33 gave me the sincerity and this is a type
1:22:35 of sincerity that one can only taste if
1:22:37 you look at our tradition uh it's it's
1:22:40 an epistemology it's an epistemological
1:22:42 certainty that you cannot describe to
1:22:45 another person you know in in
1:22:46 alagazali's writings he says you know
1:22:48 it's uh I actually won't use the example
1:22:51 he uses because it's a slightly profane
1:22:53 example but it's very humorous but a
1:22:56 similar example is that if I was to
1:22:58 describe to you what sweetness is
1:23:01 you wouldn't know but if I gave you a
1:23:04 spoon of honey then you would know and
1:23:07 that is a kind of spiritual proximity
1:23:10 and and uh
1:23:12 uncertainty that I think Islam can give
1:23:15 the soul the soul the the the that part
1:23:19 of the human being
1:23:21 that you can't get from other things no
1:23:23 matter what they are I don't think any
1:23:25 other tradition can give you that uh
1:23:27 into the degree that Islam can nor give
1:23:29 you a framework for achieving it
1:23:32 um and these this is what guy Eaton
1:23:33 expresses I think quite well it's um
1:23:36 it's that there's both an Inward and
1:23:39 outward there is not a realm which Islam
1:23:41 cannot Encompass or solve for you and
1:23:44 and if anyone has any issues surrounding
1:23:48 uh
1:23:49 this kind of thing and they think that
1:23:51 I'm someone who perhaps has encountered
1:23:52 something similar or would like to talk
1:23:54 to me about it Paul you're more than
1:23:55 welcome to link uh any of my on my stuff
1:23:58 but one thing I would say is to use
1:24:00 myself as an example I am not learned
1:24:03 um into I like to read a little bit and
1:24:05 I like to have discussions with people
1:24:06 but I I'm not a particularly I'm not a
1:24:09 supremely intelligent person I have some
1:24:11 intelligence
1:24:12 um which I'm grateful for
1:24:14 um and I've not studied a madrasa in you
1:24:18 know al-azhar or or one of those places
1:24:21 uh and I'm not super learned in in
1:24:25 anything really but I have had a quite
1:24:28 Human Experience of what it's like to
1:24:30 have doubts about your faith and how you
1:24:33 can reconcile them and that was the only
1:24:35 purpose I came on your show for I I hope
1:24:37 my intention was really to get across
1:24:39 that through some sincere endeavor
1:24:42 you can't come to a degree of certainty
1:24:45 about faith which is even greater than
1:24:47 your faith in science
1:24:49 oh that's a a beautiful uh conclusion or
1:24:52 climax even to uh the whole thing well
1:24:55 but thank you very much uh indeed uh
1:24:58 secondly and Charlie for your your time
1:25:00 your insights and and your intelligence
1:25:02 and your learning contrary to what you
1:25:05 claim I think it's evident
1:25:07 um not many people have read uh most of
1:25:09 the things that you have read I I
1:25:11 suspect
1:25:12 um and um I will link uh in the
1:25:15 description below to uh to the things
1:25:18 you spoke about to your own work so
1:25:21 um thank you very much indeed for your
1:25:22 time until next time you're very welcome
1:25:25 it was my pleasure