BBC Interview: Palestinian Activism and Anti-Zionism vs Anti-Semitism (2021-12-03) #

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0:00:09 okay okay we're good go ahead uh
0:00:12 um so
0:00:13 did you grow up in london and also
0:00:15 i mean what level of religious would you
0:00:18 say that you are
0:00:19 well i think i'm i'm an observant
0:00:22 orthodox traditionalist muslim um sunday
0:00:25 and
0:00:27 kind of uh orientation if you wanna put
0:00:28 it that way and um yes i
0:00:30 i grew up not really in that i mean i
0:00:32 grew up in a liberal environment i grew
0:00:34 up here in london um i went to a
0:00:36 multicultural school
0:00:38 um actually went to the same school as
0:00:40 some very famous uh people who went to
0:00:42 syria
0:00:44 and
0:00:45 which i will not kind of famous
0:00:47 yeah not in the positive sense and um
0:00:50 and i've seen everything you know and
0:00:52 i've engaged with everyone it's really a
0:00:53 privileged experience i think when you
0:00:55 grow up in a multi deeply multicultural
0:00:57 society and you see people from
0:00:58 different perspectives and different
0:01:00 backgrounds and you can get along with
0:01:01 them you you learn how to kind of be
0:01:03 what you are be proud of what you are by
0:01:06 the same time learn to disagree with
0:01:07 people and still get along with them
0:01:08 this is a very important thing and being
0:01:11 in a multicultural society all my life i
0:01:12 think that's been probably one of the
0:01:14 biggest takeaways
0:01:15 yeah i mean i i couldn't agree more i
0:01:17 think being in a multicultural society
0:01:19 forces you to understand that there are
0:01:21 a multitude of perspectives and you need
0:01:24 to kind of find like a middle ground
0:01:26 between what all of you think and try
0:01:27 and work out what is a way that you can
0:01:29 find harmony in terms of interacting
0:01:31 with these other groups and all find out
0:01:32 your positive aspects exactly um
0:01:35 within that diversity when you're
0:01:37 growing up were there many jewish people
0:01:39 that you knew
0:01:40 yes i actually live in the jewish area
0:01:42 which area did you grow up in uh saint
0:01:44 johnswood
0:01:47 so yeah
0:01:48 i've lived there for 20 years
0:01:50 um
0:01:51 so i've lived in this of course we have
0:01:53 jewish neighbors we have people that are
0:01:54 jewish people that went to my school
0:01:56 jewish people that you know i grew up
0:01:58 with i knew the rabbis and then the
0:01:59 synagogues and so on yeah we have one of
0:02:01 the biggest and most important
0:02:02 synagogues in the vicinity so in the
0:02:04 area so yeah absolutely
0:02:07 and of course what i realized about um
0:02:09 jewish people is that they're very
0:02:11 similar to the muslim community and so
0:02:13 much as it's we think
0:02:16 that jewish people have a uniformity of
0:02:18 opinions but they don't there are
0:02:19 liberal jews there are you know there
0:02:21 are orthodox jews and within the
0:02:23 orthodox spectrum you have heredi you
0:02:25 have you know
0:02:27 so on and so forth it really it
0:02:28 subcompartmentalizes it and it
0:02:31 you know this category of the category
0:02:33 and so it's not a monolithic entity this
0:02:35 is a very important thing i think people
0:02:37 need to understand when when discussing
0:02:38 jewish people because it's not a
0:02:39 monastic entity and that's what i've
0:02:41 discovered really quickly it was
0:02:42 something that growing up i didn't
0:02:44 understand but now i'm fully aware of
0:02:46 well people i think people lose that
0:02:47 nuance generally there is almost no
0:02:50 monolithic group out there there's a
0:02:51 spectrum within every single group and
0:02:53 it's much easier for people to
0:02:55 generalize and then make a sweeping
0:02:57 statement on the basis of that
0:02:58 generalization which i think can most
0:03:00 often be problematic and you've got to
0:03:01 look for the nuance and things
0:03:02 absolutely but when you say you were
0:03:03 growing up and you didn't know that what
0:03:05 was your what was your perception of
0:03:06 judaism when you were growing up before
0:03:08 you educated yourself what did you think
0:03:10 about jesus what did you know about jews
0:03:12 well to be honest with you judaism as a
0:03:14 religion we always knew was one of the
0:03:16 closest religions to the religion of
0:03:18 islam obviously we have to we have to
0:03:20 delineate jewishness into two
0:03:22 sub-compartments you've got the ethnic
0:03:23 component and you've got the religious
0:03:24 component
0:03:25 but if we're talking about the religious
0:03:27 component then it's we've always known
0:03:29 that judaism stands as one of the
0:03:30 closest religions to the religion of
0:03:32 islam because both religions are you
0:03:34 know uncompromisingly monotheistic right
0:03:39 there's only one god worthy of worship
0:03:41 both religions speak about abraham
0:03:43 obviously and all the prophets like noah
0:03:45 and all this kind of thing in the bible
0:03:47 in the quran and the old testament or
0:03:48 the hebrew hebrew bible as the
0:03:51 jews or jewish clergy prefer
0:03:54 and
0:03:55 and obviously both religions believe in
0:03:56 the ten commandments and moses uh moses
0:03:58 as well which to muslims is one of the
0:04:00 most mighty messengers most most
0:04:02 important men
0:04:04 of human kind in fact he's mentioned the
0:04:05 quran more than muhammad is he's
0:04:07 mentioned in the quran more than any
0:04:08 other prophet he's mentioned he's
0:04:09 mentioned 70 times by name in the quran
0:04:11 and so
0:04:12 the stories of the quran will be very
0:04:14 much
0:04:15 similar
0:04:17 to the stories in the old testament
0:04:18 however with one i would say
0:04:21 key difference the key difference being
0:04:23 where in the old testament there is
0:04:25 you could
0:04:27 kind of summarize the main message being
0:04:29 let my people go right the quran doesn't
0:04:31 state that that's the main thing the
0:04:32 quran states that when moses came to the
0:04:35 people of israel that the main thing was
0:04:37 he was trying to get them to believe
0:04:39 pharaoh himself to believe and it wasn't
0:04:41 about let my people go it's about
0:04:43 believe in one god and save yourself
0:04:45 it wasn't an exclusive discourse for a
0:04:48 tribe or something let my people go like
0:04:49 no there was that as well let my people
0:04:51 go yes but the most important thing is
0:04:53 believe in one god and worship him and
0:04:54 that's something that runs through all
0:04:56 the stories of the quran
0:04:57 but to kind of answer your question
0:05:00 we've always known that the proximity
0:05:03 between kind of judaism as religion and
0:05:05 islam on the on the fundamentals is
0:05:07 quite close and
0:05:09 that there are many things in terms of
0:05:11 our practices
0:05:12 like
0:05:12 orthodox jewish practice
0:05:14 eating pork
0:05:16 or obviously lack thereof
0:05:19 we can eat kosher food we used to
0:05:20 actually grow up on kosher meat because
0:05:22 it was much more well actually maybe you
0:05:24 shouldn't say this but
0:05:26 better quality than the alternative
0:05:27 right
0:05:28 so things like that yeah i can't i can't
0:05:31 say um and so you know
0:05:33 things like that we were aware of but
0:05:35 clearly as well
0:05:37 there's an aspect of politics
0:05:39 but to be honest in my household there
0:05:41 was always a distinction that was made
0:05:43 between
0:05:44 zionism as a political ideology
0:05:47 and judaism as a religion
0:05:50 and so
0:05:51 i've always known that even since i was
0:05:52 young but once again i didn't know the
0:05:54 sub compartments and the
0:05:56 the the extent of diversity until i got
0:05:58 a bit older so was israel something that
0:06:00 was discussed in your household growing
0:06:02 up yes no doubt about it
0:06:05 i'm egyptian by you know i'm background
0:06:08 obviously i'm a british egyptian and so
0:06:10 the wars you know the 48 war the 60 66
0:06:14 67 war um and obviously 73 one
0:06:17 particular 73 was was is hailed in egypt
0:06:20 as a great victory for egypt
0:06:22 uh obviously what we know about that was
0:06:24 that as sadat actually he politically
0:06:27 compromised
0:06:28 okay and it's interesting to note that
0:06:30 in egyptian culture this is seen as one
0:06:31 of the great
0:06:32 victories even though it was predicated
0:06:35 on a negotiation
0:06:37 so which is actually in many ways is
0:06:39 something good to think about because
0:06:41 that is to say that
0:06:43 people
0:06:44 want peace in the arab world people want
0:06:46 peace in the muslim world they don't
0:06:48 want to be in perpetual conflict with
0:06:49 their jewish neighbor
0:06:51 um or their israeli neighbor and or
0:06:53 there is never so
0:06:55 that is something that definitely was
0:06:56 there when i went to egypt you know we
0:06:58 have bridges that are named october or
0:07:01 the 6th of 6th of october bridge in
0:07:03 commemoration yeah yeah things like that
0:07:05 you know so that was definitely part of
0:07:06 the culture so growing up
0:07:08 it was a staple part of the culture and
0:07:10 uh israel seemed sort of a boogie man
0:07:12 kind of
0:07:14 it was you know i mean to be honest with
0:07:16 you right
0:07:17 when i was growing up
0:07:19 the the kind of internal conflicts
0:07:20 within egypt
0:07:22 started to override the discourse
0:07:25 and
0:07:26 you know
0:07:27 that was overshadowing eclipsing the
0:07:30 issue the historical issues if i grew up
0:07:31 in the 80s or the 70s i think the
0:07:33 situation would have been a little bit
0:07:34 different yeah
0:07:35 that's true i mean and so
0:07:37 from your perspective
0:07:39 how does
0:07:42 the discussion around israel affect
0:07:44 how people think about jewish people do
0:07:46 you think it does have an effect on how
0:07:47 people think about jewish people i think
0:07:49 really this is a sociological question
0:07:51 if we're being completely honest it's
0:07:53 like whether it does or not is it can be
0:07:55 a historical question um in terms of if
0:07:58 we look at the broad kind of stroke
0:08:00 situation from 1945 onward or 1948 to be
0:08:03 completely
0:08:04 precise the establishment of the state
0:08:06 of israel and how the arab nations
0:08:10 kind of reacted to that um how muslim
0:08:13 nations reacted to that um
0:08:16 it's gonna be a very difficult case for
0:08:17 someone to suggest that there was no
0:08:19 level of anti-semitism
0:08:21 that um that emerged in the in the
0:08:23 arable muslim world
0:08:24 as a result of the establishment of the
0:08:26 state of israel
0:08:27 um i i do think that to be honest with
0:08:30 you if you're looking at a broad stroke
0:08:31 historical perspective
0:08:33 that this this kind of anti-semitism is
0:08:35 very particular it's not it's not an
0:08:36 anti-semitism that existed in
0:08:38 spain where you know scholars talk about
0:08:41 lack of aventia or you know the idea of
0:08:43 a mutual coexistence between jews
0:08:44 muslims and christians or even the
0:08:46 ottoman empire i think it's particularly
0:08:48 pernicious and and i think it's
0:08:50 particularly outrageous actually because
0:08:53 it is now mixed it
0:08:55 effectively mixed um political discourse
0:08:58 with with religious schools in a way
0:09:00 that didn't exist in the past i think
0:09:02 that can be said historically but in
0:09:03 terms of
0:09:04 if you're talking about the uk discourse
0:09:05 in the uk kind of like life and so on
0:09:07 it's that requires kind of sociological
0:09:10 research and and to be fair
0:09:12 the kind of studies that we have so far
0:09:14 on jewish communities and muslim
0:09:15 communities
0:09:16 it's difficult for me to make a comment
0:09:18 about that but what should be the case
0:09:20 is i think it's wholly important to
0:09:22 distinguish between jewishness and pr
0:09:25 and and being an israeli supporter or
0:09:27 being a zionist and if if if we don't
0:09:30 make this distinction i think there will
0:09:31 be some real problems that can emerge
0:09:33 well
0:09:35 sorry to refer to you directly ali
0:09:38 i mean in the video which i think you
0:09:40 were also included in isn't the title of
0:09:41 your video muslims confront radical
0:09:44 israelis
0:09:45 yes and isn't that doing exactly what
0:09:47 you're saying
0:09:49 shouldn't be done conflating a group of
0:09:52 jewish people in britain
0:09:54 and calling them israelis isn't that
0:09:56 doing exactly what you're saying you
0:09:57 shouldn't i mean if someone identifies
0:09:59 as an israeli supporter an apologist or
0:10:02 a pro-zionist right then they have
0:10:04 already shown their cards
0:10:06 what we're saying is that there is a
0:10:07 difference
0:10:08 between
0:10:09 israeli discourse or pro-israeli
0:10:11 discourse when we say that we mean those
0:10:13 who are sympathetic or apologetic
0:10:16 to the policies of the israeli
0:10:18 government policies which have seen the
0:10:20 death of 166 civilians recently of which
0:10:23 66 of them were were children
0:10:25 these policies the policies of blockade
0:10:27 the policies of settlement in the in the
0:10:29 west bank in sheikh
0:10:30 in these things if someone if we decide
0:10:34 to to oppose these policies okay that
0:10:37 should never be conflated with
0:10:39 anti-jewish and i think the reason why
0:10:42 is very clear
0:10:43 that
0:10:44 if we do that that will render those pro
0:10:47 anti-zionist those anti-zionist jews as
0:10:50 impossible subjects that are engaged in
0:10:52 a perpetual
0:10:54 self flagration of some sort self
0:10:56 treachery self hate of some sort they
0:10:58 become an impossible subject but we know
0:11:00 these people exist in fact according to
0:11:02 the definition of the british government
0:11:04 which uh on anti-semitism which was
0:11:05 published in 2016
0:11:07 one of the
0:11:08 definitions of anti-semitism is when you
0:11:11 hold jewish people responsible for the
0:11:13 actions of the israeli government and i
0:11:15 think doing the
0:11:16 doing that conflation
0:11:18 um puts that risk
0:11:21 of people
0:11:22 being anti-semitic and so it's very
0:11:24 important that if someone is an
0:11:25 apologist for for israel or for zionism
0:11:28 that that should be outlined and
0:11:30 delineated or otherwise completely
0:11:32 separated
0:11:34 from
0:11:35 a jewishness i think it's very important
0:11:37 i completely agree with you to be honest
0:11:40 on almost every single point do you not
0:11:42 think the title of that video for
0:11:43 example and
0:11:44 i mean maybe i don't want to get into it
0:11:46 in this way but can you can you first of
0:11:48 all tell me can you tell me what it was
0:11:50 that you did on golden screen and what
0:11:52 made you feel compelled to go and do
0:11:54 that when we went to stanford hill and
0:11:56 golden screen um
0:11:58 we were looking for our allies and
0:12:00 associates because we have many allies
0:12:02 pro
0:12:03 palestine anti-zionist allies and
0:12:05 associates uh many of which are on the
0:12:07 record with us holding hands in placards
0:12:09 and so on and
0:12:11 showing their disdain for the the
0:12:13 policies of the israeli government
0:12:15 and i think it's very important to give
0:12:17 these people a voice because it does
0:12:18 exactly what we're talking about in the
0:12:19 beginning it gives diversity to the
0:12:21 jewish community the jewish community
0:12:23 are not a monolith and there are a
0:12:25 significant sizable chunk of the jewish
0:12:27 community who see no connection
0:12:30 whatsoever with being jewish
0:12:32 and
0:12:33 um and support for israel in fact this
0:12:35 was published in
0:12:37 in one of the only studies that was done
0:12:38 in 2010
0:12:39 um
0:12:41 i think yes 2010 where about 4 000 jews
0:12:44 were questioned and a sizable population
0:12:47 saw no necessarily in control of jewish
0:12:49 people between support for israel and
0:12:51 jewishness this is these are not my
0:12:52 words the these are the sociological
0:12:55 findings of the jewish
0:12:57 policy the institute for jewish policy
0:12:59 uh in 2008. so i think here once again
0:13:02 it's it's imperative especially where
0:13:04 maybe right-wing media you know
0:13:06 organizations and so on
0:13:08 are reluctant to do so even to be honest
0:13:09 centrist uh media streams are reluctant
0:13:11 to do so that we give voice to these
0:13:14 voiceless pro-palestinian jewish people
0:13:16 who represent a big part of the jewish
0:13:19 community but can you literally in
0:13:21 layman's terms can you explain to me
0:13:22 what it was that you guys went out and
0:13:23 did that day just so we can right so
0:13:26 yeah what we did was we went to uh our
0:13:28 rabbi friends we went to many of our
0:13:31 associates from the jewish community to
0:13:33 condemn the actions of the israeli
0:13:36 government at that time which were
0:13:37 killing
0:13:38 indiscriminately killing civilian
0:13:40 populations in gaza they were in
0:13:41 description they were dropping bombs
0:13:43 on houses killing people
0:13:46 66 of them are children actually and we
0:13:49 thought that that was disgusting and to
0:13:51 be fair
0:13:52 we did unfortunately confront some
0:13:54 people which we were ready to confront
0:13:56 had you organized it with the rabbis to
0:13:58 go
0:13:59 to go down there and so i'm yeah so you
0:14:01 went down to golden screen and stanford
0:14:03 tales this was a day of this was a day
0:14:05 of where there was protest so it was
0:14:07 already organized everything was already
0:14:09 organized by organizers and those rabbis
0:14:11 by the way they are part of a panel of
0:14:13 ours and they they are part of the
0:14:15 decision carter
0:14:16 are these the nature carter rabbis is
0:14:19 that right yep that is nice yeah yeah so
0:14:22 yeah so you drove to
0:14:24 golden so you went straight from one to
0:14:26 the other yeah we went we went to about
0:14:27 10 different locations that day and was
0:14:29 that all with the the van which was i
0:14:31 think was it projecting yeah
0:14:34 pictures of the couple this station this
0:14:36 van is not just to be clear this van is
0:14:37 not our van it's not it's not we don't
0:14:40 own that van
0:14:41 this van and the pictures once again the
0:14:43 pictures of that van were chosen by a
0:14:45 panel of people
0:14:47 of which those
0:14:48 pro-palestinian um anti-zionist jews
0:14:51 were part of that panel and and some of
0:14:53 the the imagery of that van
0:14:55 we we objected to it we said we don't
0:14:58 really i think this is quite
0:14:59 antagonistic but they said look this is
0:15:01 the kind of thing we're seeing in the
0:15:02 academic discourse norman frenkelstein
0:15:03 himself wrote a book called the
0:15:04 holocaust industry and it's important
0:15:06 they said that we remind jews this was
0:15:09 their case
0:15:10 that we remind jews that we don't want
0:15:12 to fall we don't want to be the victim
0:15:14 of our own
0:15:15 past
0:15:16 we said if if you feel strongly about
0:15:18 that we cannot stop you from
0:15:21 expressing joy
0:15:23 not drove the van we have they had a
0:15:24 driver or something they organized they
0:15:26 organized oh absolutely this is not a
0:15:27 van in any way shape or form but we but
0:15:29 this was there was a panel of people of
0:15:31 which they were part of that panel and
0:15:33 they decided on the pictures and we we
0:15:35 spoke about it we were a little bit you
0:15:37 know a bit worried about the kind of
0:15:38 imagery in the country but but they said
0:15:40 yeah
0:15:41 this should be said in that in that
0:15:43 language in that strong language so
0:15:44 because this is our view the view is
0:15:47 that we have suffered one of the most
0:15:49 catastrophic and monstrous and
0:15:51 condemnable and abominable things in
0:15:54 human history
0:15:55 which is the holocaust
0:15:57 and we should have we we should teach
0:15:59 our upcoming generations
0:16:02 that we cannot even go anywhere near
0:16:04 doing that to another population not to
0:16:06 say that there is some kind of
0:16:06 comparison there is not but having said
0:16:09 that they said there is no comparison in
0:16:11 the size and scale of the obviously but
0:16:12 we don't even want to come close to that
0:16:14 with a barge point when you weren't you
0:16:16 worried about
0:16:17 it being antagonistic shouldn't you have
0:16:19 told them really to not come because if
0:16:21 there's no comparison there's a risk if
0:16:22 you're doing if you're doing it in front
0:16:23 of their van showing those images that
0:16:25 people might misconstrue and feel that
0:16:27 you are making a difference
0:16:28 there is a risk of course there is a
0:16:29 risk but the thing is i don't think that
0:16:31 pro zionist uh or apology people that
0:16:34 are apologetic to the the israeli
0:16:35 narrative
0:16:37 or the israeli government in fact that
0:16:39 those individuals should be protected
0:16:41 i i think that if they are willing
0:16:44 enough
0:16:44 and brave enough
0:16:46 to scrutinize or or to defend i should
0:16:49 say to defend their government's
0:16:52 policies or the government that they
0:16:53 support the policies they should be
0:16:54 brave enough to be cross-examined
0:16:57 scrutinized or otherwise interrogated
0:16:59 publicly as well and i think what it is
0:17:02 is that we've got to remember that in
0:17:04 israel there was um the status law in
0:17:07 1952
0:17:09 which which categorically states and
0:17:10 it's still part of the books uh the
0:17:12 legislative books which categorically
0:17:14 states that israel is the creation
0:17:16 of the jewish people all the jewish
0:17:18 people but this again monolithic kind of
0:17:21 narrative um doesn't doesn't
0:17:23 give flavor to the jewish community
0:17:25 there's no diversity there
0:17:27 this is the problem narrative and what
0:17:29 we're saying is that there are some jews
0:17:31 out there as you know and i know that
0:17:33 will will condemn
0:17:34 israel with all vehemency and all vigor
0:17:37 and they will condemn them in language
0:17:40 which may be antagonistic to me and you
0:17:42 or me
0:17:43 particularly because i'm non-jewish but
0:17:46 i say give them a voice because they
0:17:48 deserve a voice and they've been blocked
0:17:50 by members of their own community not
0:17:52 all members but some members some
0:17:54 intolerant members of the wrong
0:17:55 community we all have them
0:17:56 from having that voice we will provide
0:17:58 the voice for them and what was the
0:18:00 reaction that you got to publishing that
0:18:02 video
0:18:04 well we got some we got a mixed reaction
0:18:06 we've got some people saying this was
0:18:08 exceptionally
0:18:10 well done and it was needed and this is
0:18:12 the kind of thing we need and we're
0:18:13 ruffling the feathers as part public
0:18:15 discourse and as part of freedom of
0:18:16 speech and expression and so on
0:18:18 and we have some people saying this is
0:18:19 antagonism this is uh stirring um you
0:18:23 know
0:18:24 division and so on
0:18:26 and this is the nature of public
0:18:28 discourse i think if we're going to have
0:18:30 any discussion whatsoever if it doesn't
0:18:32 accumulate or generate some kind of
0:18:33 controversy usually we're talking about
0:18:35 some mundane issue which
0:18:37 which which maybe
0:18:39 isn't worth talking about in the first
0:18:41 place but if this is one of the uh one
0:18:43 of the pieces of collateral damage that
0:18:45 you get from doing
0:18:46 freedom of speech properly
0:18:48 but as someone i mean so much of what
0:18:50 you're saying i agree with and i think
0:18:52 one of the things you clearly are
0:18:54 passionate about promoting is a sense of
0:18:56 harmony yes does it how does it make you
0:18:58 feel then that literally direct
0:18:59 accusations of anti-semitism were laid
0:19:01 at your door on the basis of what
0:19:03 yeah i i think they were saying that i
0:19:05 was stoking it
0:19:06 but what we this is once again you have
0:19:08 to appreciate that there are some people
0:19:11 um that conflate anti-israel israelis if
0:19:14 you want to call that or anti-zionism
0:19:16 without semitism we're saying that that
0:19:17 conflation itself is anthemic according
0:19:19 to the british definition of
0:19:21 british governmental definition
0:19:23 the british government itself has laid
0:19:26 down a definition which has been
0:19:27 accepted by a bulk of the bulk of
0:19:30 organizations in the in the west jewish
0:19:32 organizations which is that to equate
0:19:35 the government's actions the israeli
0:19:36 government's actions with jewish people
0:19:38 is anti-semitism they're telling me that
0:19:41 uh in fact if what you do is you attack
0:19:44 the israeli government and you attack
0:19:45 the policies the discriminatory policies
0:19:48 and the attacking policies of israeli
0:19:49 government then you're anti-semitic
0:19:50 we're saying that you're more likely to
0:19:52 fit the the category of anti-semitic
0:19:54 according to the british government
0:19:55 because you're making the conflation
0:19:56 is it not
0:19:58 implicitly accusatory
0:20:01 going to an area with a large jewish
0:20:02 community with the backdrop which which
0:20:04 wasn't the backdrop that you guys had
0:20:06 decided to bring
0:20:08 and going there and confronting people
0:20:10 isn't that isn't it i mean it's subtle
0:20:12 but isn't that implicitly implicitly
0:20:14 quite
0:20:15 i'll tell you i'll tell you what it's
0:20:16 like
0:20:17 i'll tell you what it's like
0:20:19 it's
0:20:20 the human rights watch have categorized
0:20:23 israel as an apartheid state you know
0:20:25 that it's on the public record and not
0:20:27 just them many different organizations
0:20:28 which are nothing to do with islam or
0:20:30 muslim or muslim community
0:20:32 now how i and you may be been around at
0:20:35 the time of the south african apartheid
0:20:37 and there was a white south african
0:20:39 community in britain and london
0:20:41 and had i gone with my cameras and said
0:20:43 i want to rally support against
0:20:44 apartheid from these people
0:20:46 if they were to say this is anti or
0:20:48 racial towards anti-south uh south
0:20:50 africans i would say that itself
0:20:53 is an affront to freedom of speech and
0:20:55 to freedom in general because if i'm
0:20:57 against an apartheid system and i want
0:20:59 to i want to rally support and get
0:21:01 associates from the community which are
0:21:03 probably most powerful and be being able
0:21:05 to make a case that if that is
0:21:07 anti-semitism then they have distorted
0:21:10 and defamed
0:21:12 or even
0:21:13 completely destroyed what it means to be
0:21:15 anti-semitic
0:21:17 what we have to go back to are robust
0:21:18 definitions which don't violate the
0:21:21 terms
0:21:22 anti-semitic is when you have certain
0:21:24 attitudes towards jewish people and
0:21:25 there's a whole definition that you can
0:21:27 find in the british government website
0:21:29 it's nothing to do
0:21:30 with someone being critical of israel or
0:21:32 going to any area in london which
0:21:34 doesn't belong to any community by the
0:21:35 way because it's a free country going to
0:21:37 any area in london and rallying support
0:21:40 from any member of any community and
0:21:42 that includes the muslim community the
0:21:44 black community the hispanic community
0:21:45 or any other community if i go to those
0:21:47 communities and i ask them listen we
0:21:48 have a cause and it's a pro-palestinian
0:21:50 course it's an anti-israel government
0:21:53 cause
0:21:54 would you like to join this cause
0:21:56 i have a full right to do that and i
0:21:57 think it's totally legitimate for any
0:21:59 community
0:22:01 is it is there not a risk i mean
0:22:03 lots of
0:22:05 debates get
0:22:06 brought down by associations with things
0:22:08 that they don't want to be associated
0:22:10 with didn't you run the risk of doing
0:22:12 that i'm mainly thinking of the van
0:22:14 because if you're going there and you're
0:22:16 confronting people with images and you
0:22:17 can make an assumption that a lot of the
0:22:19 people in that area will have had family
0:22:21 who
0:22:22 perished in the holocaust
0:22:24 you are associating yourself with
0:22:26 that van just by virtue of being
0:22:27 alongside it isn't that wasn't that
0:22:29 problematic did that not put you off
0:22:30 wanting to do it or did you not want to
0:22:32 draw a line and say the the van itself
0:22:34 is not my property it's got nothing to
0:22:36 do with me and the pictures on the van
0:22:38 as i said were were chosen by jewish
0:22:41 people now if jewish people want to talk
0:22:44 about the holocaust they can talk about
0:22:45 the holy ghost if black people want to
0:22:47 use the n word they can use the animal
0:22:48 i'm not against this i think that being
0:22:50 against this would be to censor you see
0:22:53 though those people why what i do
0:22:55 believe in is free speech in when it's
0:22:58 done in in for not for gratuitously
0:23:01 insulting populations for finding the
0:23:03 truth and and i think that if we're
0:23:05 going to a community like the jewish
0:23:06 community they are sensible enough to
0:23:07 mature enough to be able to conduct free
0:23:09 speech which is not breaking the law not
0:23:11 inciting violence not doing any of this
0:23:13 they're sensible enough and that's why
0:23:14 we have so many allies in that community
0:23:16 if you go on our public platform you
0:23:18 will find so many jewish people holding
0:23:20 hands and placards with us why would
0:23:22 they do that stafford bridge itself i
0:23:24 think i would even wager that the
0:23:25 majority of stanford bridge i don't know
0:23:28 i mean i haven't done a service but
0:23:29 potentially the majority of them
0:23:31 share our types of attitudes towards um
0:23:34 the pro-palestinian course so what what
0:23:36 i think is is that you're saying it runs
0:23:38 a risk of course it does i mean would it
0:23:40 have ran a risk for some uh anti-slavery
0:23:43 advocates in the 19th century to come
0:23:46 out and speak about slavery yes did it
0:23:47 run at risk for them they went into war
0:23:49 in 1861 to 1865 in america for it
0:23:51 did it run a risk for people that aren't
0:23:54 apartheid people against the south
0:23:55 african apartheid for them to be labeled
0:23:57 in certain ways yes but those
0:23:59 individuals who are happy to take that
0:24:01 risk and go forward with it and don't
0:24:03 care about labels especially when
0:24:04 they're being misapplied those are the
0:24:06 ones who make history those who are too
0:24:08 afraid to to do these things they will
0:24:11 meet the dustbin of history the the you
0:24:12 know the trash heap of israel i think i
0:24:15 don't mind uh being labeled and this is
0:24:17 uh i don't mind being labeled as
0:24:18 whatever it is i'm a seaman myself i'm
0:24:20 an arab and vernacularly i'm a see
0:24:22 myself if you want if you want to label
0:24:24 if they want to label me i tell you one
0:24:26 thing label me all you like because you
0:24:28 know why
0:24:29 because
0:24:30 i know it's impossible for a muslim to
0:24:32 be anti-semitic the prophet married a
0:24:34 jew
0:24:34 and in fact not only did he marry an
0:24:36 ethnic jew the prophet muhammad
0:24:38 he married an ethnic jew
0:24:40 but he even armed her with ways in which
0:24:43 she can combat anti-semitic
0:24:45 semitism in her own community telling
0:24:46 her to mention her lineage back to moses
0:24:49 and aaron i think that's a i personally
0:24:51 think that's a bit of a
0:24:53 fluff argument because you can't say
0:24:54 it's impossible for someone to be
0:24:56 anything because quite clearly no no for
0:24:57 a tradition for a traditionalist muslim
0:25:06 has married a jewish woman okay
0:25:07 ethnically jewish yeah and he gave her
0:25:10 arguments for people that were being
0:25:13 abusive to her
0:25:16 to
0:25:17 to combat anti-semitism in her own
0:25:19 community
0:25:21 if i am being a faithful follower of the
0:25:23 prophet muhammad i surely should follow
0:25:26 in his footsteps and that's the kind of
0:25:28 thing i have on my channel if anyone
0:25:29 goes on online now on my channel they'll
0:25:32 find a video entitled why muslims cannot
0:25:35 be antimated or shouldn't be answered
0:25:37 the reason why is because islamically
0:25:39 for following the prophet muhammad he
0:25:40 married a jew himself and he gave her
0:25:42 arguments on how to combat semitism so
0:25:45 i'm not saying it's inconceivable i'm
0:25:47 saying it's it
0:25:48 not to be yeah it shouldn't be yeah it
0:25:50 shouldn't be the case yeah yeah
0:25:52 exactly yeah i can understand that
0:25:54 um can um can i draw a fairly crude
0:25:59 comparison do you think would it would
0:26:00 it in theory
0:26:02 be
0:26:03 offensive for somebody
0:26:05 to
0:26:07 go to a large muslim population part of
0:26:09 london
0:26:10 and
0:26:11 have a
0:26:12 van with pictures of for example the
0:26:16 kabul airport where isis k recently had
0:26:19 you know caused an explosion
0:26:21 and to demand of people that they give
0:26:22 their opinion and outwardly condemn it
0:26:24 would you think that was problematic i
0:26:26 think it's a disanalogous thing because
0:26:28 if we look at the the the studies the
0:26:30 one i've just mentioned to you the
0:26:32 the dr david graham study okay in 2010
0:26:35 which has been conducted by four
0:26:37 thousand jews i think it's one of the
0:26:38 biggest studies and it's been it's been
0:26:40 conducted by the jewish institute policy
0:26:42 industry
0:26:43 this study did say that there was a
0:26:45 sizable number of people
0:26:47 sizeable number of uh jewish people that
0:26:49 support the state of israel and in fact
0:26:51 they base their jewish identity based on
0:26:54 the state of israel the same thing
0:26:56 cannot and ever be
0:26:57 said about muslims and isis you will not
0:27:00 find the level of support are you saying
0:27:02 they feel a connection to israel or they
0:27:04 are supportive of the israeli
0:27:06 government's
0:27:07 actions because those are two different
0:27:08 things no no no not the israeli
0:27:10 government israel as a nation what i'm
0:27:12 saying is now if there are people that
0:27:14 are supportive of israel as a nation and
0:27:15 the government
0:27:17 that is different to isis because it's
0:27:20 not like for like comparison in terms of
0:27:21 the demography there there is there are
0:27:23 simply not as many muslims who support
0:27:26 isis as there are jews who support
0:27:28 israel that's impossible too
0:27:30 if you look at pew for example and see
0:27:32 the kind of um the data they have on how
0:27:35 many muslims support isis and all the
0:27:37 nations including the muslim majority
0:27:38 nations it's not comparable to the
0:27:41 amount of jews that support isis um
0:27:43 israel or the actions of the israeli
0:27:44 government so i think it's a bit of a
0:27:46 disanalogy
0:27:47 but it's it's it's a similar thing in
0:27:49 terms of expecting people
0:27:51 thousands of ways of thousands of miles
0:27:53 away from the actual
0:27:55 conflict itself or issue to answer for
0:27:58 it as if they have no no no once again i
0:28:01 we we're not doing that we went to these
0:28:03 areas
0:28:04 to to get our associates and our allies
0:28:06 from the jewish community to have a
0:28:08 voice
0:28:09 so it wasn't an answer it wasn't
0:28:10 interrogative it was it was more
0:28:12 conciliatory and harmonious we're going
0:28:15 to see our jewish friends in these
0:28:16 jewish areas if there happens to be
0:28:19 pro-zionists who came to us and
0:28:20 challenged us we are ready to debate
0:28:23 them and defeat them in debate as we
0:28:24 have been and the only thing that they
0:28:25 can come back with is labeling us as
0:28:28 anti-semites that is for me an admission
0:28:30 of defeat because that you can't deal
0:28:31 with our argument therefore you have to
0:28:32 label us
0:28:34 so as far as we're concerned okay it's
0:28:36 legitimate even what you've said there
0:28:38 is legitimate if you wanted
0:28:40 uh if bbc or any other news agent
0:28:42 agency came to any area in the world
0:28:45 forget about just london any area in the
0:28:47 world they wanted to ask anyone about
0:28:48 anything i think they should have the
0:28:50 sociological privilege to do so so that
0:28:53 we know what people are thinking what
0:28:54 people are saying i think there's no
0:28:56 it's not an affront to freedom of speech
0:28:58 in fact within the spirit and letter and
0:29:01 the law of freedom of speech and
0:29:02 expression and if we can't do these
0:29:04 things then there is no such thing as
0:29:05 freedom of speech what is freedom it
0:29:07 what it boils down to what then it's a
0:29:09 freedom of speech so long as um
0:29:11 we don't we don't hurt someone else's
0:29:13 feelings you know
0:29:14 then in that case i think people need to
0:29:16 reassess their principles
0:29:18 can i draw back a little bit yeah
0:29:20 do you think
0:29:22 um
0:29:23 islamophobia as an issue is something
0:29:25 that's taken as seriously as
0:29:27 antisemitism as an issue
0:29:29 no
0:29:30 because the government has a working
0:29:32 definition for anti-semitism it does not
0:29:34 have a working definition for
0:29:35 islamophobia
0:29:37 the government the uk government the
0:29:39 conservative uk government
0:29:41 has a
0:29:42 page long definition in fact of what
0:29:44 constitutes anti-semitism of which by
0:29:46 the way there are religious things
0:29:48 because one may make the argument is
0:29:50 disanalogous because they would say that
0:29:52 jewishness is both
0:29:54 ethnic and religious right
0:29:56 whereas islam is is only religious
0:29:59 right but then in the definition where
0:30:00 uh where anti-semitism is the definition
0:30:03 of anthemicism there are religious
0:30:04 components of the religious the
0:30:06 infrastructure the organization so on so
0:30:08 if jewish people are allowed to have a
0:30:10 definition
0:30:11 and a jewish religious jewish people
0:30:13 have a definition which protects them
0:30:16 in the law the muslim people should have
0:30:17 it now obviously it's different because
0:30:20 as i've mentioned when we're talking
0:30:22 about discrimination towards muslim
0:30:23 people it's multi-factual in
0:30:25 sociological analysis if you have a
0:30:27 black muslim
0:30:28 right so they they could be
0:30:29 discriminated against on the basis of
0:30:31 being black
0:30:32 as well as on the basis of being muslim
0:30:34 and these two types of discrimination
0:30:36 are two separate types i'm not saying
0:30:39 one is worse than the other whatever but
0:30:40 it's just a separate type of analysis
0:30:42 and i think when we're doing these
0:30:44 analyses we have to be careful
0:30:46 not to disanalogize um but also be
0:30:49 careful to be consistent because in this
0:30:50 case if there are aspects here
0:30:52 which in the british definition of
0:30:54 anti-semitism are religious surely they
0:30:56 should be
0:30:57 uh separate things for all the religions
0:31:00 not just islam
0:31:01 hinduism
0:31:03 judaism sikhism all of them why do you
0:31:05 think it isn't
0:31:06 given as much i to be to be honest
0:31:08 that's a political question um
0:31:11 are the conservative party concerned
0:31:13 with the muslim community no they don't
0:31:16 see maybe
0:31:17 from from a voting perspective that the
0:31:18 muslim community is going to vote for
0:31:20 them in the first place
0:31:21 so they may not want to
0:31:23 please them as much as maybe they have a
0:31:24 stronger hold in jewish communities in
0:31:26 terms of evolving it might be that
0:31:29 the labor party has has
0:31:31 traditionally had the muslim vote but
0:31:33 now with islam moving in in the
0:31:35 direction that he's moving in
0:31:36 which is uh from our perspective a
0:31:38 anti-muslim direction quite frankly he's
0:31:41 likely to lose the muslim vote himself
0:31:43 so
0:31:44 whatever happens i think that
0:31:46 political parties now need to start
0:31:48 thinking more wisely because we are
0:31:50 according to the census data we are
0:31:52 millions of people in this country we
0:31:53 are millions of people in this country
0:31:55 and if we are not taken seriously then
0:31:58 we'll be
0:32:00 worse and worse things like this unity
0:32:01 will happen and we want to create
0:32:03 harmony in this country with muslims
0:32:04 because we are millions in this country
0:32:07 and i think that the way to do so is to
0:32:08 protect our interests and the more
0:32:10 muslims feel that their interests are
0:32:13 being protected they're less
0:32:15 there there's likely to be
0:32:16 radicalization there's likely to be
0:32:19 disunity there's likely to be a
0:32:21 disharmony there's likely to be all this
0:32:22 kind of thing so i think it is important
0:32:24 that the government come forward with
0:32:26 the definition as they have with
0:32:27 anti-semitism
0:32:29 for islamophobia
0:32:31 how do you think um
0:32:33 we can promote
0:32:35 um a sense of harmony between different
0:32:37 communities specifically with the jewish
0:32:39 community in mind
0:32:40 i think that we really need to just
0:32:42 bring people together if you look at the
0:32:44 pew data okay um and
0:32:47 pure day is very interesting because
0:32:48 it's really seen as the gold standard of
0:32:49 statistical data if you look at the pew
0:32:51 data where discrimination is at its
0:32:52 highest whether it's racial whatever it
0:32:54 may be in different countries you'll
0:32:56 find that it's usually in areas where
0:32:57 people don't mix
0:32:59 you see so a problem for both the muslim
0:33:01 and jewish community has been maybe you
0:33:03 could you could argue a lack of
0:33:04 integration a lack of mixing a lack of
0:33:07 you know having their own kind of
0:33:08 ghettos or whatever it is what we need
0:33:10 to do is we need to bring people
0:33:12 together from different religions let
0:33:13 them play football or something let them
0:33:14 eat together let them talk together and
0:33:16 if there are disagreements between
0:33:17 muslims and jews they should be fleshed
0:33:20 out but they should be fleshed out in a
0:33:22 healthy manner with a with an eye or an
0:33:26 intention to try and create unity and
0:33:28 promote uh civic
0:33:30 coexistence rather than with an eye to
0:33:33 try and create disunity and disharmony i
0:33:35 think if we do that properly
0:33:37 then i think we'll find that this
0:33:38 country will be the beacon of light for
0:33:40 the rest of the countries on and
0:33:42 actually a model on how to deal with the
0:33:44 issue of multiculturalism
0:33:46 are you optimistic do you think that's
0:33:47 the direction the country's going in let
0:33:49 me tell you something i think that they
0:33:50 have there's a lot of reason why we
0:33:52 should be optimistic
0:33:54 in history
0:33:55 and as i say one of my academic
0:33:58 areas of research has been history
0:34:00 convervancy has happened between muslims
0:34:02 and jews in the past the issue has
0:34:04 always been the politics
0:34:07 after 1948 everything has changed but we
0:34:09 can bring it back we can i am optimistic
0:34:12 i'm hopeful we can bring it back
0:34:13 to a situation where we can bring
0:34:15 muslims and jews
0:34:17 back on
0:34:19 civil terms with each other
0:34:20 i'm not saying they're not already on
0:34:22 those terms but on better terms with
0:34:23 each other in this country and i think
0:34:25 if we have the hard discussions
0:34:27 and we allow and we don't label each
0:34:29 other
0:34:30 because people can't fear that i'm going
0:34:31 to speak to my jewish neighbor he's
0:34:32 going to call me an anti-might or vice
0:34:34 versa did you did you fear school being
0:34:36 called an islamophobe but it just
0:34:37 becomes a very toxic relationship no
0:34:39 let's have our discussions
0:34:41 you know and if we don't fear that and
0:34:42 we talk about it then there's a great
0:34:44 hope if we do resort to these kind of
0:34:46 defensive deflective um scapegoating
0:34:50 tactics
0:34:51 then it's going to be
0:34:53 it's got it's going to be
0:34:55 something negative for the community so
0:34:56 yes i am optimistic generally speak
0:34:59 um this is just a broader identity
0:35:01 question yes um
0:35:03 do you in terms of your own beliefs do
0:35:05 you think of yourself as are you
0:35:06 progressive where do you sit in terms of
0:35:09 your
0:35:10 social outlook
0:35:11 i think to be honest with you the word
0:35:13 progressive has overtons or
0:35:15 presuppositions which are really
0:35:17 objectionable actually
0:35:18 because they come from an enlightenment
0:35:21 western enlightenment experience which
0:35:23 is entirely eurocentric
0:35:25 and which has very specific
0:35:28 kind of values in mind
0:35:30 i think
0:35:32 what i consider myself as a
0:35:33 traditionalist muslim that's how i call
0:35:35 myself and i think that in many ways
0:35:37 people not understanding traditions
0:35:39 islam that requ that think that this
0:35:41 type of islam if you like requires some
0:35:43 kind of um
0:35:45 evolution
0:35:46 okay are themselves subscribing to a
0:35:50 discourse
0:35:51 which is in my view actually racial
0:35:53 racial colonial and racial because it's
0:35:55 the same mentality
0:35:57 that
0:35:58 colonizers had before they went into
0:36:00 countries which didn't belong to theirs
0:36:02 and imposed their values
0:36:03 so i object to the term i think
0:36:05 progressive
0:36:06 understood in western language or in in
0:36:08 the west generally speaking has
0:36:10 overtones in there which are entirely
0:36:12 objectionable and not only objectionable
0:36:14 they require to be evidence from first
0:36:16 principle from first principles they are
0:36:18 not argued for thoroughly and they're
0:36:19 just they are assumptions um that are
0:36:22 presented as axioms which we don't need
0:36:23 to accept
0:36:25 um
0:36:27 i'm sorry to bring you back into this
0:36:28 alley i'm sorry
0:36:30 just give me credit
0:36:31 [Laughter]
0:36:34 i think there's a lot of merit to what
0:36:36 you say
0:36:37 but i think specifically that video i
0:36:38 did did strike me as as
0:36:42 problematic in lots of ways and i think
0:36:43 specifically the title of the video
0:36:46 muslims confront radical israelis
0:36:49 was problematic and i don't think
0:36:51 i think it was possibly a shock tactic
0:36:54 headline in order to get more views in
0:36:56 order to promote what is possibly
0:36:58 you want a harmonious yes but do you not
0:37:00 think there's do you not see how that is
0:37:02 problematic there are radical israelis
0:37:04 there's a different way of communicating
0:37:06 what i mean
0:37:08 you're objecting to the term radical
0:37:09 israeli are there such thing as radical
0:37:12 iranians are there such things as
0:37:13 radical koreans but i'm objecting to
0:37:14 radical israelis because
0:37:16 you went to to speak to just some you
0:37:18 know fairly religious jewish people who
0:37:20 are not
0:37:23 you definitely don't know if they're
0:37:24 israelis no no they they they identified
0:37:26 as such and not only that i didn't see a
0:37:28 single person in that video identified
0:37:30 there was more than one israeli there
0:37:31 was more than one video you have to look
0:37:32 at all of them did any of them say yes
0:37:34 she said
0:37:37 they said that we are dual nationalist
0:37:39 israel very much isn't in the video no
0:37:41 that's that video but there's there's a
0:37:42 collection of videos you have to look at
0:37:43 all of them but there's something else
0:37:44 here i want to say that not only did
0:37:46 they do that if you watch the entire
0:37:48 video
0:37:49 when when we talked about why we call
0:37:50 that person radical is because they
0:37:52 totally
0:37:53 um humiliated
0:37:56 children that were being killed
0:37:58 palestinian children and this something
0:38:00 in fact it was they deserved it
0:38:02 or they did it to themselves they did it
0:38:04 to themselves that he said so we we
0:38:06 think someone
0:38:08 who identifies as a jewel nation
0:38:10 a dual nationalist
0:38:11 uh and who who who trivializes the death
0:38:14 of palestinian children says they did it
0:38:16 to themselves it's a radical i think if
0:38:18 that's not radical then we don't know
0:38:19 what radical is one of them said
0:38:24 yeah this is just afghanistan yeah
0:38:25 what's funny
0:38:27 he's walking with his children
0:38:36 there's a little bit of inconsistency
0:38:38 which i'm sure you know there's gonna be
0:38:39 consistency because you can't you can't
0:38:41 i don't know you can't
0:38:43 like like you can't choose who your
0:38:45 followers are you can't there's going to
0:38:47 be nuance in everything but isn't there
0:38:48 inconsistency
0:38:50 um
0:38:51 in
0:38:52 trying to promote a message of
0:38:54 positivity and then maybe focusing in on
0:38:56 only a negative so i think the video
0:38:58 you're referring to is
0:38:59 the gent who what did you say is this
0:39:02 afghanistan
0:39:03 yeah
0:39:05 themselves yeah but is it was that the
0:39:07 majority view you were getting when you
0:39:08 were when you went there and if it were
0:39:10 not are you then not kind of giving an
0:39:12 inconsistently or a disproportionately
0:39:14 large spotlight to something which isn't
0:39:16 representative of how the people you
0:39:18 came across well what i would say is go
0:39:20 and look at our platforms because you'll
0:39:21 find both you'll find we we are
0:39:23 confronting people who are pro zionists
0:39:26 and we are also in hand literally in
0:39:28 hand in hand with people who are jewish
0:39:31 anti-zionist anti-israeli government
0:39:33 actions
0:39:34 advocates so we do both and that's
0:39:37 unfortunately something i have to say
0:39:39 the bbc haven't done enough of um
0:39:41 something that i say that bbc if they
0:39:42 did more of it would be more authentic
0:39:44 journalism i i think the truth of the
0:39:46 matter is what we've done
0:39:48 if we are exposing some bad attitudes in
0:39:51 certain communities whether it's muslim
0:39:53 or or jewish or christian or whatever
0:39:55 kind of community we're talking about
0:39:56 that needs to be exposed
0:39:58 to some extent that does need to be
0:39:59 because how can we fix a problem that we
0:40:01 don't even know exists we need to x-ray
0:40:03 okay we need to put under the proverbial
0:40:06 mri you know
0:40:08 our communities and not just try and
0:40:10 kind of uh white wash or not put onto
0:40:12 the carpet the problems that we may have
0:40:14 in our in our respective communities we
0:40:16 need to deal with them head-on like i
0:40:18 said if it was south african apartheid
0:40:20 if it was a white south african uh
0:40:22 community of
0:40:23 white south africans and there was
0:40:24 apartheid going on
0:40:26 going there and seeing for example some
0:40:28 people agree with apartheid
0:40:30 and then someone come and tell me why
0:40:31 are you broadcasting this i say this is
0:40:32 the problem we need to expose it
0:40:34 see this is the problem we need to
0:40:35 expose it
0:40:36 and i know it can be kind of
0:40:38 uncomfortable for us i know it because i
0:40:40 i'm a muslim okay we see the on the news
0:40:42 all the time we see people doing bad
0:40:43 things in the name of islam all the time
0:40:45 i know it's uncomfortable but it's it's
0:40:47 sometimes um unnecessary
0:40:49 uncomfort and sometimes it's something
0:40:51 we need to we need to deal with because
0:40:53 if we can't if we pretend it doesn't
0:40:54 exist there's no such thing as muslim
0:40:56 terrorism there's no such thing as
0:40:57 racist uh jews there's no such thing as
0:40:58 muslim uh whatever if we think all of
0:41:00 those categories are in fact not even in
0:41:02 existence then we can't fix those things
0:41:04 in our communities i think one second
0:41:06 muhammad you have some a little bit
0:41:08 drops in your
0:41:10 in your flowering your left left eye
0:41:12 left eye's got
0:41:13 is is it shall i clean it or slightly
0:41:15 can you is it
0:41:17 just gonna get worse
0:41:18 has to be good because i'm picking them
0:41:20 up very much with the camera
0:41:22 it might get worse before it gets yeah
0:41:24 we need to we need to maybe just wrap up
0:41:26 guys like soon okay
0:41:28 oh it's getting worse
0:41:31 i'm waterproof
0:41:32 but
0:41:41 can you understand i mean i'm not going
0:41:42 to
0:41:44 um wade into israeli politics and the
0:41:46 issue of israel because it's just so
0:41:47 complicated generally
0:41:49 i've got personal opinions on it all
0:41:51 but
0:41:52 can you understand why for many jewish
0:41:54 people it's very
0:41:55 complicated it's not easy for them to
0:41:58 outright condemn israel can you
0:41:59 understand that perspective but based on
0:42:02 their own sensitivities their own
0:42:04 history can you see why it's complicated
0:42:06 for them yeah i totally sympathize with
0:42:08 um jewish people who have an affinity to
0:42:10 the state of israel i understand that
0:42:12 perspective it's not like a it's an
0:42:13 alien perspective to me
0:42:15 and i empathize with them but i just
0:42:17 think they're wrong on the issues
0:42:19 because when we're looking at right and
0:42:21 wrong right i think all of us agree that
0:42:23 the the indiscriminate killing
0:42:25 of
0:42:26 children
0:42:27 of civilian populations dropping bombs
0:42:30 in a densely populated places gaza which
0:42:32 has been blocked as is there's a
0:42:34 blockade on it okay i think that should
0:42:36 be condemned by anybody from any
0:42:38 religion just like i would be expected
0:42:40 to condemn the actions of whatever
0:42:42 country is that's claims to speak in
0:42:44 behalf of islam iran saudi arabia
0:42:46 wherever i'll condemn any action that
0:42:48 they do even though i have an affinity
0:42:50 to islam and so on i'll condemn any
0:42:51 action that they do in the name of my
0:42:53 religion because in fact
0:42:55 my failure to do so would be a discredit
0:42:58 to the religion itself
0:43:00 that i i think it would be a disservice
0:43:03 to my community and my religion if i
0:43:04 don't condemn those actions and i think
0:43:06 the same thing can be said of
0:43:07 individuals who support the state of
0:43:09 israel who do not condem outright the
0:43:12 actions of a government who drop bombs
0:43:14 indiscriminately in the most densely
0:43:16 populated
0:43:18 area in the world
0:43:20 this is such a broad political question
0:43:22 but um
0:43:23 what resolution would you like to see in
0:43:26 that part of the world what what kind of
0:43:28 what would you like to see happen
0:43:30 this is a very difficult question
0:43:32 whether i what i would like to see
0:43:34 if we need the answers what i would like
0:43:36 to see is co-existence what i would like
0:43:37 to see is what we saw in spain what we'd
0:43:39 like to see is confidential what i would
0:43:41 like to see is tolerance
0:43:43 but what i'm probably going to see is
0:43:46 all the opposite to that unfortunately
0:43:48 right i don't have an optimistic view of
0:43:50 what's going to happen in that area
0:43:52 anyone who looks at the history of that
0:43:54 area will know that there is no
0:43:56 resolution uh that is probably going to
0:43:58 be had in in the foreseeable future i
0:44:00 have to be honest and say all i can do
0:44:02 here is pray
0:44:04 okay guys
0:44:05 the