Refuting some Christian scholars' claims about God in the Qur'an (2021-09-08) ​

0:00:01 hello everyone and welcome to blogging
0:00:03 theology and today i'm very excited to
0:00:06 have uh as a guest actually a friend of
0:00:08 mine who has just completed his
0:00:10 post-graduate research at the university
0:00:12 of oxford usman sheik you're most
0:00:14 welcome to blogging theology
0:00:16 thanks for having me here thank you paul
0:00:18 thank you um now usma has just completed
0:00:22 uh his mfil that's a master philosophy
0:00:25 thesis at oxford um it's entitled god's
0:00:28 responsiveness in the quran an intra and
0:00:32 inter textual analysis
0:00:34 by usman sheikh now that may sound a
0:00:37 little bit opaque um but actually
0:00:39 there's some real
0:00:40 gems in this thesis which i have read
0:00:43 and i'm very enthusiastic actually to
0:00:46 talk about some of the things that uh
0:00:48 usman uh that you have written about in
0:00:50 your work but could you just kind of
0:00:52 give us an overview and abstract of what
0:00:54 your thesis is about just to set up the
0:00:56 scene please uh yes absolutely so i'm
0:00:59 interested in the topic of uh god's
0:01:02 responsiveness to humans in the quran so
0:01:05 uh briefly this would uh
0:01:07 uh this would entail an exploration of
0:01:10 how god interacts with human beings what
0:01:12 are the ways that he um uh you know
0:01:15 engages with human beings so um i'm
0:01:18 looking at the varieties of god's
0:01:20 interaction with humans in the quran so
0:01:23 uh very broadly speaking there are i
0:01:25 think uh three categories of this within
0:01:27 the quran so
0:01:29 firstly a human would call upon god and
0:01:31 god would respond to this human this
0:01:34 response can be either positive or
0:01:35 negative or or maybe god may not respond
0:01:38 uh
0:01:40 his response you know uh might be just
0:01:43 silence uh
0:01:44 uh so so i'm looking at at this and then
0:01:48 i'm also looking at
0:01:50 uh what uh how is god um
0:01:53 proactively
0:01:54 intervening in the affairs of humans so
0:01:58 the quranic god is not simply a reactive
0:02:01 god he is also a proactive god
0:02:04 um
0:02:06 so just to give you an example um when
0:02:09 um
0:02:10 uh when we look at the story of mary in
0:02:13 the quran uh the annunciation to to mary
0:02:16 for example in surah maryam q 19
0:02:20 mary is not praying for a child
0:02:22 god
0:02:24 uh basically informs her that she will
0:02:26 have a child uh jesus
0:02:29 uh and so that's uh proactive in
0:02:31 prevention by god and likewise if you
0:02:33 have a look at the story of uh moses's
0:02:37 uh
0:02:38 the birth of moses
0:02:40 in the quran so his
0:02:42 uh
0:02:42 separation and then his reunion with um
0:02:46 with his mother
0:02:48 that is also when uh um
0:02:51 uh basically an uh a proactive
0:02:54 intervention by god
0:02:56 uh god informs moses's mother
0:03:00 uh that
0:03:01 uh
0:03:02 when she uh has a fear that you know
0:03:06 that moses may be caught that she is to
0:03:08 do something she is to cast him in the
0:03:10 river and he assures her that he will
0:03:13 reunite her
0:03:15 uh
0:03:15 uh with her child so we see here again
0:03:19 uh a uh proactive god
0:03:22 and then i have a uh also have a look at
0:03:24 other varieties of god's interaction and
0:03:27 and uh responses to humans uh it's very
0:03:30 surprising that in the quran uh
0:03:33 god also responds to the human heart to
0:03:36 uh the thoughts in the minds of humans
0:03:39 and he does various things in response
0:03:42 to belief and in response to disbelief
0:03:45 um and so you can uh almost you know
0:03:48 label god as a mind reader in the quran
0:03:51 he says categorically that he knows what
0:03:53 is in your heart and he responds to it
0:03:55 just to give you one example of this
0:03:57 when moses is in the court of the
0:04:00 pharaoh and he's having this you know
0:04:03 this competition with
0:04:04 the magicians of the pharaoh
0:04:07 uh when the magicians pull off their
0:04:09 what the quran labels trick
0:04:12 moses has a fear in his heart within
0:04:14 himself and at that very moment god
0:04:18 responds to him and says do not fear and
0:04:21 throw your stick and see what happens
0:04:23 so god here is not responding to
0:04:25 something verbal he is not responding to
0:04:27 something which moves as articulated in
0:04:30 words he responded to a fear which
0:04:32 germinated in
0:04:34 within moses
0:04:35 and he responded to him right there and
0:04:37 then so uh these are uh very broadly
0:04:40 speaking the three uh types uh uh um or
0:04:45 the three categories of you know how god
0:04:48 interacts with humans and uh i i then
0:04:51 also have a look at you know of what god
0:04:53 does in response to for example good
0:04:56 deeds in the quran so god says that you
0:04:59 have to believe in him and you have to
0:05:01 do good deeds and
0:05:04 god's response to this is oftentimes a
0:05:07 manifold
0:05:09 reward for whatever good
0:05:11 uh human does
0:05:13 and likewise if something wrong is done
0:05:16 then god you know responds to that with
0:05:19 justice but when it comes to the good
0:05:22 that you do
0:05:23 god is overly generous in the quran that
0:05:26 he rewards you doubly or even more than
0:05:29 that so i'm looking at all of you know
0:05:31 these sort of varieties of god's
0:05:32 interaction and responses to human
0:05:34 actions and human speeches in the quran
0:05:37 well that's very helpful thank you for
0:05:38 that overview now um coming perhaps to
0:05:41 uh the next section which is the what
0:05:44 you call the quranic god in uh academic
0:05:47 discourse a critical survey
0:05:50 and um one of the scholars that you um
0:05:54 look at is a chap called uh andy
0:05:57 bannister who um is
0:05:59 a relatively young uh evangelical
0:06:02 christian scholar um uh according to the
0:06:05 sources on wikipedia i could see he's
0:06:06 based in canada at the moment um now he
0:06:09 has just published a book once they just
0:06:11 published i mean it's this year very
0:06:13 recently his book andy bannister do
0:06:15 muslims and christians worship the same
0:06:18 god
0:06:19 right so this is a question that
0:06:20 evangelicals often like to discuss and
0:06:22 he asserts on page 51 and i quote it and
0:06:25 you quote this in your thesis
0:06:27 bannister asserts that quote the main
0:06:30 emphasis of the quran in its portrayal
0:06:32 of god is not his relationality but his
0:06:36 distance
0:06:37 allah is never close and personal
0:06:41 only ever high and mighty powerful and
0:06:44 transcendent lofty and distant end quote
0:06:49 so he's allo is never close and personal
0:06:51 but only high now when i read that quote
0:06:53 i couldn't believe what i just read i
0:06:55 thought now this can't be for real this
0:06:57 guy
0:06:58 banister has a phd
0:07:00 in islamic studies um he's highly
0:07:02 revered in evangelical circles anyway as
0:07:05 a scholar of islam
0:07:07 and yet he made a statement like that
0:07:08 which even i as a non-scholar just an
0:07:10 ordinary layman can see is patently
0:07:12 false because there are many examples in
0:07:14 the quran where god is very close to
0:07:16 people but um could you say a bit more
0:07:22 sorry i i lost you for the past five
0:07:24 seconds there was a slight disruption
0:07:26 can you
0:07:31 could you say could you explain a bit
0:07:33 more about your response to andy
0:07:35 bannister's claim that god is in the
0:07:37 quran is only remote and distant and i
0:07:40 was just expressing my incredulity
0:07:42 really when when i read that statement
0:07:44 from
0:07:44 someone who's uh highly revered in
0:07:46 evangelical circles as a scholar of
0:07:48 islam with a phd in the subject could
0:07:50 come out with a statement like that
0:07:52 which
0:07:53 would seem to be so contrary to the fact
0:07:55 to be honest um so what could you expand
0:07:58 in what you say in your thesis about him
0:08:01 uh yes so when i was working on my
0:08:04 pieces it was in the midst of my thesis
0:08:06 that a mutual friend of ours actually
0:08:08 informed me about andy bannister's
0:08:10 uh
0:08:11 uh latest work so i had a look at first
0:08:14 i heard his very detailed interview in
0:08:16 which he gave a very helpful summary of
0:08:18 his views so so he basically believes
0:08:20 that
0:08:21 uh
0:08:22 uh the quranic god and the biblical god
0:08:25 they are different gods they're not one
0:08:27 of the same so so you know we would say
0:08:29 that uh christians muslims and jews we
0:08:33 believe in the same god we may say
0:08:35 different things about this god but it's
0:08:38 the same god
0:08:39 his view is actually no uh
0:08:42 uh the biblical god is actually not the
0:08:44 quranic god and so muslims and
0:08:46 christians
0:08:48 do not worship the same god uh
0:08:50 so uh i then
0:08:53 read this book um
0:08:55 and um
0:08:56 before actually i had read this book i
0:08:58 had done my survey of the quran so my
0:09:01 methodology was that i would first
0:09:03 rather than looking at any secondary
0:09:05 literature i would simply approach the
0:09:07 ground myself i would make careful notes
0:09:10 i would read through it from uh page to
0:09:12 page and i will make a note of you know
0:09:14 all the various varieties of god's
0:09:16 interaction and responses to humans
0:09:18 therein
0:09:20 and this then helps me in uh critically
0:09:23 engaging
0:09:24 uh uh with the literature already
0:09:27 available so i then read andy
0:09:29 bannister's work and yes like like you i
0:09:32 too was quite shocked but it seems that
0:09:34 at the very least in certain evangelical
0:09:38 circles uh this does seem to be a
0:09:42 very common view that you know somehow
0:09:45 the
0:09:46 muslims either they don't worship the
0:09:48 same god or if they do worship the same
0:09:51 god then you know
0:09:53 he is just transcendent and he is
0:09:55 uh you know just very distant from uh
0:09:58 from man
0:09:59 and um
0:10:01 so uh i mean as you read the quran
0:10:05 even in english translation you don't
0:10:06 have even have to rely upon the arabic
0:10:09 text um you are very
0:10:12 you're hit very strongly early on
0:10:15 with this constant recurrent theme of
0:10:19 god's nearness to mandarin and how does
0:10:22 this
0:10:23 occur in the quran so firstly the
0:10:26 quranic author is speaking to the reader
0:10:29 directly
0:10:30 the quran is in the divine voice uh uh
0:10:33 so so the uh um assumed uh uh speaker is
0:10:38 god the the the the the speaker believes
0:10:41 that he's god at the very least uh
0:10:43 and and secondly um what do we find
0:10:47 within the quranic text not only are
0:10:49 there you know these stories of prophets
0:10:51 and various individuals calling upon god
0:10:53 and god responding to them
0:10:55 but again and again the reader uh
0:10:59 is told to rely upon god to call upon
0:11:02 god the quranic god
0:11:05 is upset if you do not call upon him and
0:11:07 he says so very clearly he says he likes
0:11:09 it when you call upon him and he assures
0:11:12 you that he is near any response for
0:11:14 example in uh q2 uh ayah number 186 if
0:11:19 you read that that that passage uh he
0:11:22 says that you know he he assures you
0:11:25 that he is close
0:11:26 that he responds and then he goes on to
0:11:29 say will you also listen to me will you
0:11:32 also respond to me i'm just paraphrasing
0:11:34 here but but you can check the words out
0:11:36 and and and you come across other such
0:11:38 passages in the quran so not only is
0:11:41 there the assertion
0:11:42 in the quran that god is near
0:11:45 but you can see that god is presented as
0:11:48 being near when he is engaging with the
0:11:51 human heart and this is with the
0:11:54 individual human heart so he knows what
0:11:56 you think and he responds to that he
0:11:58 knows the state of your heart and and
0:12:01 and he responds to that so for example
0:12:03 if you happen to be a believer uh there
0:12:06 are various passages in the quran which
0:12:07 says that you know god sends his
0:12:09 sakina his tranquility down upon you uh
0:12:13 uh there is a passage which talks about
0:12:16 uh the quranic community uh which is it
0:12:20 seems from the context that you know
0:12:21 this is uh just the day before the the
0:12:24 famous battle of butter
0:12:27 uh which took place between the muslims
0:12:30 in madina
0:12:31 and the uh
0:12:33 andy makkan
0:12:35 so uh what happens before the battle uh
0:12:39 god causes his his reign to fall down
0:12:42 upon the believers then he causes tan uh
0:12:46 uh then to go to sleep
0:12:48 and he sends down his sakina on them
0:12:51 tranquility that's the common
0:12:53 translation of of sakina yeah and and
0:12:56 and this is how uh uh you know he sort
0:12:59 of like modifies them or he you know
0:13:01 does various things with them which are
0:13:03 you know beyond our grasp it's uh uh and
0:13:07 and you come across very very similar
0:13:09 examples of this there are even examples
0:13:11 of disbelievers people who associate
0:13:14 partners with god
0:13:16 who when they are in a very difficult
0:13:18 situation life-threatening situation in
0:13:21 the darkness of the land in the darkness
0:13:23 of the sea surrounded by waves maybe in
0:13:26 a boat
0:13:27 or
0:13:28 or you know uh any such difficult
0:13:30 situation
0:13:32 at that moment when they sincerely call
0:13:35 upon god to rescue them
0:13:37 what does the quran say uh the response
0:13:40 is
0:13:41 god reacts to that he responds to them
0:13:44 he saves them and then the quran says
0:13:46 but then thereafter once they've been
0:13:48 rescued they associate partners with him
0:13:51 uh and and i think there are eight or
0:13:53 nine passages in the quran in which
0:13:56 which uh
0:13:57 uh mentioned the scenario uh
0:14:00 and uh
0:14:02 there are prayers in the quran uh uh i
0:14:04 counted you know these rabbana
0:14:06 supplications rabbana means our lord
0:14:08 beginning with our lord
0:14:10 and uh uh
0:14:12 they occur i think 40 or 42 times in the
0:14:14 quran
0:14:15 where prophets and other believers
0:14:18 they're asking for good in this life
0:14:21 good in the next life
0:14:23 so you come across all of these things
0:14:26 taking place in the quranic text i'm
0:14:28 sure i've left out many of the uh uh um
0:14:31 many other elements because i'm just uh
0:14:33 summarizing uh
0:14:35 uh you know from my memory at the moment
0:14:37 yeah but you come across these various
0:14:39 things again and again and again and
0:14:41 once you look at all of this data
0:14:45 i don't understand how anyone can then
0:14:47 say that
0:14:48 god is just lofty he is at a distant
0:14:51 and you know he is fully transcendent he
0:14:54 is transcendent but he claims and he
0:14:58 shows this by actual practical examples
0:15:01 that he is also nearer he is more nearer
0:15:04 to you and not only does it has to say
0:15:06 that you know uh uh then you're jugging
0:15:09 but also another says that you know uh
0:15:12 and again i'm simply roughly summarizing
0:15:14 that when a person is on the dead bed
0:15:16 and you are and there are people
0:15:18 surrounding that person the nearest to
0:15:20 that person is actually god even though
0:15:23 you can't see him
0:15:24 so you come across these interesting
0:15:26 things in page of the page
0:15:28 of the quran so uh that's why i don't
0:15:31 understand how one can claim that you
0:15:33 know god is yes god is transcendent
0:15:35 absolutely he is but at the same time he
0:15:38 is nearer to man as he claims
0:15:41 again and again
0:15:43 i i agree i i i share your your
0:15:46 disbelief uh i mean there are many
0:15:47 there's so many passages in the crime
0:15:48 that talk about god's closeness one of
0:15:50 the one i like and actually made a a
0:15:52 difference in my life in the past quran
0:15:55 58 7 which you quote in the conclusion
0:15:58 do you not see that god knows what is in
0:16:00 the heavens and on earth three men
0:16:03 cannot confer together secretly without
0:16:06 him capital h god being the fourth of
0:16:09 them or five without him being the sixth
0:16:13 of them or fewer than that or more
0:16:15 without him being with them wherever
0:16:18 they are
0:16:19 then he would inform them on the day of
0:16:21 resurrection of what they did god has
0:16:23 knowledge of all things an extraordinary
0:16:26 passage but god is actually one of the
0:16:28 the the conspirators in a way present
0:16:30 amongst them uh
0:16:32 they confer together secretly and he
0:16:34 would disclose you know publicly um and
0:16:37 then interestingly this is uh that's in
0:16:40 the conclusion to your thesis you quote
0:16:42 another prominent uh christian scholar i
0:16:45 believe he was a jesuit uh effie peters
0:16:47 who sadly passed away last year an
0:16:49 american professor
0:16:51 and he says uh quote the allah of the
0:16:54 quran is at once more powerful yet
0:16:56 unmistakably more remote than yahweh
0:17:00 yahweh being the hebrew name for god in
0:17:01 the bible one of the names
0:17:03 allah controls all but from a distance
0:17:06 he is a universal deity quite unlike the
0:17:08 yahweh who in the early books of the
0:17:10 bible follows close on every step of the
0:17:13 israelites and quote the fe peters
0:17:16 i mean
0:17:17 again i i'm mystified uh why this
0:17:20 christian scholar comes out with these
0:17:22 statements and he was a very uh eminent
0:17:24 uh scholar of the quran in the west
0:17:27 appearing to take what to you and i
0:17:29 seems to be
0:17:30 not to want to be rude but an elementary
0:17:32 blunder about the quran which you would
0:17:36 expect from someone who didn't know
0:17:37 about the quran and yet he's saying
0:17:38 saying this
0:17:39 so um yeah i i it is mystifying um about
0:17:43 that i must say oh yeah absolutely and
0:17:45 the only answer that i could think of is
0:17:48 possibly that you know there is
0:17:50 sometimes this
0:17:51 monopolizing tendency uh among certain
0:17:54 groups that you know
0:17:56 god only in our scripture is god loving
0:17:59 he can't be loving in any other
0:18:00 scripture only in our scripture is he
0:18:02 close can't be close in any other
0:18:04 scripture so uh um unfortunately you
0:18:07 know uh this sort of a tendency is there
0:18:10 uh among uh various groups so uh that's
0:18:13 my
0:18:14 that's the only thing that i could think
0:18:16 of but once you are reading the quranic
0:18:17 text if you want to derive the view of
0:18:20 god based on the quranic text then it's
0:18:23 uh
0:18:24 i just don't see how you can claim that
0:18:26 he is distant and one interesting book
0:18:28 that i would mention is actually by
0:18:30 gabriel sade reynolds uh it's for the
0:18:33 lay audience you know it's one of these
0:18:35 uh bart herman style books for the lay
0:18:38 audience where you uh where he
0:18:39 introduces you know uh scholarly matters
0:18:42 uh
0:18:43 to a non-expert uh audience i'm
0:18:46 forgetting the name of the book but it's
0:18:47 quite recent i think it came out in 2020
0:18:50 i think is it's called uh god in the
0:18:52 quran or uh
0:18:54 oh yeah you'll have to check up on that
0:18:56 but
0:18:56 uh i'm forgetting that the correct title
0:18:58 but anyway
0:19:00 yeah yeah
0:19:01 uh if you read his discussion so there
0:19:04 are some some bits and places where you
0:19:06 know it seems that you know he is giving
0:19:08 the impression
0:19:10 uh
0:19:11 as if you know the quranic god is a
0:19:13 little bit different from the biblical
0:19:15 god and i do agree that there are some
0:19:16 differences but as far as nearness
0:19:19 intimacy intimacy with with believers
0:19:22 with humans it's concerned i don't think
0:19:23 that there is a great distance there but
0:19:25 then he actually proceeds to give
0:19:27 examples after examples
0:19:30 of uh certain elements in the quran that
0:19:33 you also find in the bible uh as far as
0:19:35 god is concerned
0:19:37 and he closes this this gap i think in a
0:19:40 in a very nice way
0:19:42 between you know sometimes the
0:19:43 impression is given as if the quranic
0:19:45 god not only is he distant but he is
0:19:48 like angry all the time
0:19:50 and uh he would you know respond with
0:19:52 vengeance
0:19:54 and people and there is god's vengeance
0:19:56 there is god's condemnation in the quran
0:19:58 there is no doubt about that but that's
0:20:00 those are not the only elements about
0:20:02 god in the quran so like some some uh
0:20:04 authors unfortunately simply focus upon
0:20:07 certain bits and pieces at the expense
0:20:09 of others and so gabriel said reynolds's
0:20:13 book i think is a
0:20:15 is a very good example
0:20:17 of
0:20:19 uh um of actually softly refuting this
0:20:23 this type of a comparison because it
0:20:24 shows that you know these elements which
0:20:27 certain people find uh objectionable in
0:20:29 the quran actually is there in the bible
0:20:32 also not only in the in in the jewish
0:20:34 bible but also in the new testament
0:20:36 god's condemnation his wrath is anger
0:20:39 it's not difficult to find find those
0:20:41 there
0:20:42 unfortunately i i always trust a little
0:20:44 ironic uh from certainly for evangelical
0:20:46 scholars to protest like this about the
0:20:49 koran's god given that for evangelicals
0:20:51 of course jesus is god and therefore the
0:20:54 god of the old testament uh is jesus or
0:20:56 the son in some form incarnate in
0:20:59 pre-incarnate stage but then that makes
0:21:02 jesus responsible for the genocides
0:21:04 unfortunately that are commanded by god
0:21:07 in the scriptures uh of the old
0:21:08 testament one samuel 15 being one
0:21:11 notorious example where god commands the
0:21:14 israelites to target uh women children
0:21:17 and babies for killing directly uh these
0:21:21 categories are enunciated in a as almost
0:21:24 a satanic litany you need to go through
0:21:26 these people and slaughter
0:21:28 them um exactly it's it's it's wholesale
0:21:31 destruction and the logic is that
0:21:35 nothing like that in the ground of
0:21:36 course
0:21:37 where in fact that there are there are
0:21:38 limits to to warfare you're told not to
0:21:40 be the aggressor uh and so on so it
0:21:43 always struck me as a little ironic that
0:21:45 christians uh
0:21:47 say this uh given that um the quran uh
0:21:50 sorry the the
0:21:51 jewish and christian scriptures together
0:21:52 are far more violent uh than the quran
0:21:56 uh in a different way completely
0:21:58 different oh yes absolutely and and i
0:22:00 should also mention here that uh uh in
0:22:02 my pieces uh uh i don't discuss the
0:22:04 bible that much but
0:22:06 uh but absolutely in case if someone
0:22:08 gets the wrong impression uh god's love
0:22:10 god's mercy those elements are
0:22:12 absolutely there in the bible both in
0:22:14 the jewish bible and obviously in the
0:22:15 new testament also and there are
0:22:17 remarkably moving passages about you
0:22:19 know a girl called closeness to man in
0:22:21 the bible for example in isaiah you can
0:22:24 point to many uh
0:22:26 uh passages in isaiah and in other
0:22:29 biblical writings my point is simply
0:22:31 that one should be fair
0:22:34 when
0:22:35 when approaching these writings don't
0:22:37 just look at some elements at the
0:22:39 expense of others and just amplifying
0:22:41 some bits and pieces
0:22:43 look at the whole package and then reach
0:22:45 a conclusion
0:22:47 on that very point uh
0:22:49 one of the jewels in your thesis that i
0:22:51 i certainly will remember you say
0:22:54 discussing bannister's um criticisms of
0:22:57 what's allegedly not in the quran
0:22:59 uh you say uh furthermore banister
0:23:01 proceeds uh the formula allah is over
0:23:04 over all things occurs 50 times in the
0:23:06 quran thus the theme of god's
0:23:08 transcendence and distance is repeatedly
0:23:10 emphasized in the quran and then you say
0:23:13 in 1985 ep saunders who is a is a very
0:23:17 prominent american specialist in the uh
0:23:20 in the bible uh and jewish the jewish
0:23:22 context of jesus's life offered a
0:23:24 memorable reaction to certain
0:23:27 presentations of judaism in christian
0:23:29 writings
0:23:30 and you write usman i present his
0:23:32 comment verbatim as i deem it also to
0:23:36 also constitute an apt response to
0:23:38 banister's portrayal of the chronic god
0:23:40 and you quote
0:23:42 the position is so incredible that i
0:23:45 wish it were necessary only to state it
0:23:47 in order to demonstrate its
0:23:49 ridiculousness
0:23:51 now this is sanders reacting against
0:23:53 caricatures of judaism as a graceless
0:23:57 religion lacking forgiveness and
0:23:59 repentance um see especially his work
0:24:02 jesus and judaism published in 1985 uh
0:24:07 that quote is in page 202 of that book
0:24:10 and i think that is absolutely spot on
0:24:12 there has been a commendable um paradigm
0:24:15 shift in a much new testament studies um
0:24:19 against an older idea in uh older
0:24:22 perception of judaism as a dead
0:24:25 legalistic
0:24:26 life religion without grace without
0:24:29 mercy and so on which is a complete
0:24:30 travesty of the realities and now
0:24:32 scholars have gone back afresh and
0:24:35 looked at the jewish scriptures and
0:24:36 appreciated what they actually do say
0:24:38 rather than through a kind of lutheran
0:24:41 lens uh which is uh distorting the
0:24:43 picture so the point of your quote which
0:24:46 is a masterful quote is to say a similar
0:24:49 paradigm shift needs to occur in western
0:24:52 christian
0:24:53 um
0:24:54 understandings of the quran that they
0:24:56 need to start seeing what is actually
0:24:58 there rather than what they're they're
0:25:00 religious
0:25:03 uh yes
0:25:05 uh definitely i would say that as far as
0:25:07 you know certain groups are concerned
0:25:09 primarily uh
0:25:10 uh evangelical questions uh
0:25:12 unfortunately so uh that paradigm shift
0:25:15 is very necessary and this is not asking
0:25:19 for you know any uh privileged treatment
0:25:22 um
0:25:23 you know just just read the text and you
0:25:25 will see that you know these these
0:25:28 creatures of
0:25:29 of you know the quranic god being
0:25:31 distant uh
0:25:32 it's just some people's
0:25:34 it's just simply false yeah that is the
0:25:36 thing
0:25:38 dedicated answer is
0:25:40 not you're not seeing what's there in
0:25:41 front of you and i would argue that the
0:25:43 the inherited uh
0:25:45 polemical attitude towards islam is
0:25:48 distorting their vision and stopping
0:25:50 them actually seeing clearly the
0:25:52 objective facts of the case and so as
0:25:54 you say no one's asking for a privileged
0:25:56 um you know elevation of islam in an
0:25:58 overly positive way but let's look at
0:26:00 the facts uh and and be and see it for
0:26:03 what it is i think that's a very
0:26:04 reasonable position and uh i would
0:26:05 certainly hope that uh ep songs
0:26:08 lesson can be transferred to
0:26:10 these studies as well and talking of
0:26:12 paradigm shifts um this is kern's famous
0:26:15 expression of course in a different
0:26:17 context talking about the structure of
0:26:18 scientific revolutions also in the 80s
0:26:20 when his book about changes in
0:26:22 understanding the universe we're not
0:26:23 going to go there um
0:26:25 in your thesis page 46 you talk about
0:26:27 the quran and biblical tradition the
0:26:30 paradigm shift now for me this is a
0:26:32 particularly interesting chapter that
0:26:35 you wrote
0:26:36 um i'm not going to offer
0:26:38 i'll let you tell me what this paradigm
0:26:40 shift is and perhaps we can talk about
0:26:42 that
0:26:43 uh yeah so um there is a tendency among
0:26:47 uh some writers in the very distant past
0:26:49 you know to say that uh
0:26:51 the quran is basically a derivative text
0:26:54 uh
0:26:55 borrowed copied from the bible and
0:26:58 misunderstanding stories in the bible so
0:27:00 oftentimes you know you come across this
0:27:02 and once again
0:27:03 in in the more polemical christian
0:27:05 writings uh um if you go a few decades
0:27:09 uh
0:27:10 uh uh you know in this in the distant
0:27:13 past uh you'll come across um the more
0:27:16 scholarly writers
0:27:17 also presenting the discussion uh uh
0:27:21 of you know the the quran giza be the
0:27:23 bible in terms of the quran being a
0:27:25 derivative text uh
0:27:28 taking stuff not necessarily from the
0:27:30 canonical writings but from
0:27:32 post-biblical writings um and so you
0:27:36 know there is uh they were positing a uh
0:27:38 sort of like a
0:27:40 more of a genetic uh
0:27:43 one-to-one connection between the quran
0:27:45 and various biblical texts so in the
0:27:48 more recent years um over the past let's
0:27:52 say uh two or three decades uh scholars
0:27:55 have come to pay more attention to
0:27:58 firstly what the quran is saying itself
0:28:00 looking at quranic uh rhetoric
0:28:03 its claims
0:28:04 um and they have paid closer attention
0:28:08 to
0:28:08 the stories in the quran
0:28:10 and the parallels that you find in
0:28:13 various biblical writings and what
0:28:16 becomes absolutely clear as you do a
0:28:19 very detailed examination
0:28:22 that we cannot understand the links
0:28:24 between the two in terms of
0:28:27 copying and borrowing i'll give you one
0:28:29 example um
0:28:31 the most famous source critical
0:28:34 problem is the synoptic problem uh i
0:28:37 won't go into the details but if you
0:28:39 have a look at
0:28:40 matthew mark and luke
0:28:43 in in a nutshell there are so many
0:28:46 verbal similarities between them
0:28:48 exactitudes in many places even
0:28:51 similarities and exactitudes when it
0:28:53 comes to the
0:28:55 ordering of the words and the ordering
0:28:58 of the various stories um
0:29:01 that one has to posit a
0:29:04 literary connection between them
0:29:06 uh
0:29:08 so they're
0:29:10 so we know that you know uh the authors
0:29:12 are copying each other the question is
0:29:15 is mark the first gospel matthew and
0:29:17 luke are copying mark this is the uh
0:29:19 majority opinion and and i think there
0:29:21 are good reasons to defend this uh but
0:29:23 there are other ways to um to solve this
0:29:26 problem also be that as a menu whatever
0:29:29 the solution uh one thing is clear there
0:29:32 is a literary connection between these
0:29:34 writings and there is
0:29:36 actual literal copying that is taking
0:29:39 place well word for word and we can see
0:29:41 that that matthew exactly words
0:29:44 sometimes changes it sometimes doesn't
0:29:46 work yeah precisely nothing remotely
0:29:50 close to this
0:29:51 occurs when we look at quranic stories
0:29:54 and the biblical parallels so this sort
0:29:57 of an exaggeration it it is simply not
0:30:00 there
0:30:01 there are maybe
0:30:02 a dozen or maybe 14 or maybe 10 short
0:30:06 passages where you can say okay there
0:30:08 are more similarities in the wordings
0:30:11 these are like you know brief sentences
0:30:13 brief phrases there is maybe perhaps
0:30:15 only uh one one passage
0:30:18 a quote from the psalms which the quran
0:30:20 says this is what we what we revealed or
0:30:23 you know what we said in the uh
0:30:26 and it then goes on to you know uh
0:30:28 mention something and you find that in
0:30:30 the psalms
0:30:33 the righteous will in inherit the words
0:30:37 yeah yeah so so once again my apology
0:30:39 i'm just paraphrasing here so so so uh
0:30:42 there is a formula the quran says it's
0:30:44 quoting something it says it it gives
0:30:47 the source and you find that there but
0:30:49 this is uh something very rare
0:30:52 uh uh
0:30:54 otherwise uh if
0:30:56 if you look at the quranic stories and
0:30:58 and all the parallels in the biblical
0:31:00 writings canonical and non-canonicals uh
0:31:03 you come across similarities but also
0:31:05 many many more differences
0:31:08 and and and the second problem is that
0:31:10 um
0:31:11 so so firstly
0:31:13 there isn't therefore borrowing
0:31:15 wholesale copying that is taking place
0:31:19 because we don't have the evidence for
0:31:20 that uh secondly um
0:31:23 these
0:31:24 uh various uh biblical writings they're
0:31:26 written either in greek in
0:31:29 syria in aramaic in hebrew
0:31:32 so
0:31:33 obviously to suggest that the prophet
0:31:36 muhammad
0:31:37 had access to these writing and was
0:31:40 copying in and borrowing from them
0:31:42 translating you know the stuff there in
0:31:44 them to arabic
0:31:45 no scholar today believes that
0:31:48 they're not willing to give so much uh
0:31:50 uh
0:31:52 scholarly knowledge to to the prophet
0:31:54 muhammad uh
0:31:56 and and that's quite understandable
0:31:58 otherwise you know he would be a very
0:31:59 rare individual who had mastered so many
0:32:02 languages and you know who could access
0:32:04 these writings uh so uh once you look at
0:32:07 the similarities and the differences and
0:32:10 the fact that you know these writings
0:32:11 are in various different languages and
0:32:14 also
0:32:16 many scholars think that the quran
0:32:18 really is the first proper document
0:32:21 in the arabic language that these
0:32:23 biblical writings it's quite possible
0:32:26 that maybe bits and pieces you know
0:32:27 translations were available were being
0:32:29 used in prayer services in in arabia in
0:32:33 the quranic uh milieu but uh cover to
0:32:36 cover
0:32:37 actual translation of books uh scholars
0:32:40 like sydney griffith think that that is
0:32:42 something which is
0:32:43 post-islamic so the bible itself sydney
0:32:46 griffith argues was translated properly
0:32:49 into arabic
0:32:51 after the advent of the quran and its
0:32:53 own circulation indeed this is the book
0:32:55 we're referring to sydney h griffiths
0:32:57 the bible in arabic the scripture the
0:32:58 people of the book in the language of
0:33:00 islam i do recommend this book um it's
0:33:02 available in paperback as well um it's
0:33:04 got rave reviews and specialists on the
0:33:06 back uh he's an american new testament
0:33:09 sorry american scholar of early islamic
0:33:11 history excuse me um he is a christian
0:33:13 but
0:33:14 not evangelical um but uh now that we'll
0:33:17 come onto this uh work in a second but
0:33:20 exactly
0:33:21 you're saying that to summarize then
0:33:22 that the older claim belief which is
0:33:25 still circulated in some missionary
0:33:28 circles that the uh
0:33:29 uh the koran simply copies in the bible
0:33:32 uh is shown to be false again
0:33:35 by simply looking carefully at the text
0:33:38 sydney griffith goes through uh these
0:33:40 texts very carefully and uh it comes to
0:33:43 that question the evidence is all there
0:33:44 if you want to look at it for yourself
0:33:46 exactly um
0:33:47 so but nevertheless apart from one
0:33:49 perhaps uh exception where the quran is
0:33:51 quoting from verse in the song um and by
0:33:54 the way
0:33:55 yeah um nikolai is sinai so i have the
0:33:57 book right here also there we go
0:34:00 yeah exactly so there is an intertextual
0:34:02 discussion there he provides a very
0:34:04 helpful table uh on page
0:34:07 140 so these are really i think most of
0:34:12 the verbal similarities that you come
0:34:14 across uh between quranic stories and
0:34:17 various you know biblical and post
0:34:19 biblical uh parallels
0:34:23 yeah and and you know that's pretty much
0:34:26 it so now firstly the question is uh how
0:34:29 did this knowledge uh uh come to the
0:34:32 prophet muhammad himself if we put aside
0:34:37 if we put aside theology
0:34:39 and if we are simply considering this in
0:34:41 a naturalistic way many scholars uh uh
0:34:44 you know uh believe that okay so
0:34:46 probably stories from these various
0:34:48 canonical and non-canonical writings
0:34:50 were maybe circulating orally and people
0:34:53 were familiar with them and the quran
0:34:56 interacted with these uh stories um
0:35:01 well now there is a theological response
0:35:03 to that too and uh theologically this uh
0:35:05 uh
0:35:06 uh one can say that yes uh
0:35:08 god is interacting with and responding
0:35:11 to
0:35:13 uh the stories or uh that the people
0:35:16 were familiar with
0:35:18 um but
0:35:20 putting theology aside how did we
0:35:21 precisely know
0:35:23 this
0:35:24 how did the koran come to learn about
0:35:27 these various stories
0:35:28 probably orally ultimately one uh one
0:35:32 does not know um
0:35:34 there could be you know some uh arabic
0:35:38 texts which were also circulating maybe
0:35:40 you know just uh showed brief texts
0:35:43 maybe
0:35:46 the quran could be interacting with them
0:35:47 too but god knows best ultimately we
0:35:50 don't know that so scholars these days
0:35:53 and i'm talking about western scholars
0:35:54 who are uh
0:35:56 overwhelmingly non-muslims rather than
0:35:58 talking in terms of
0:36:00 influence borrowing and copying they are
0:36:04 looking at this in terms of
0:36:06 intertextuality and what this involves
0:36:08 is that you look at the quranic story
0:36:10 and you simply look at the parallels to
0:36:13 that story in the various biblical
0:36:15 traditions you look at the similarities
0:36:17 and the differences and this helps you
0:36:19 to um to see the quran's own unique
0:36:22 perspective and the quran's own unique
0:36:25 take on that particular issue now uh
0:36:28 once you do this and many scholars have
0:36:31 done this with a number of quranic
0:36:33 stories one point which comes out very
0:36:36 strongly i think in the various uh
0:36:38 studies and sidney griffith mentions
0:36:40 this also
0:36:42 it is that the quran is polemically
0:36:45 interacting with biblical tradition that
0:36:48 is to say that for the quran biblical
0:36:51 tradition canonical non-canonical is not
0:36:53 separasing
0:36:56 the quran is confidently parting ways
0:36:58 with them because it seems that the
0:36:59 quran has its own views its own opinions
0:37:02 it has its own theology uh
0:37:05 in inverted commas the quran is
0:37:07 obviously not the book of theology but
0:37:08 it has its own perspective
0:37:10 and it's
0:37:12 interacting with these biblical
0:37:14 traditions
0:37:16 uh
0:37:17 uh you know through the prism of its own
0:37:20 views
0:37:21 yeah and it is confidently parting ways
0:37:24 absolutely if i could just quote your
0:37:25 conclusion you say the quranic accounts
0:37:28 in other words the stories
0:37:30 in the quran particularly the zechariah
0:37:32 story which you analyze in detail come
0:37:34 across as adversarial and competing
0:37:37 correctives of existing biblical stories
0:37:40 the parting of the way with circulating
0:37:43 stories seems intentional prompted by
0:37:46 the quran's own conception of god and
0:37:49 how he is envisaged uh to have
0:37:51 intervened in human affairs so the quran
0:37:54 is aware of the stories it's retelling
0:37:56 them and correcting them and that's that
0:37:58 kind of language uh you're using there
0:38:00 is also uh used by uh griffith
0:38:03 absolutely yeah
0:38:05 as well um i just mentioned by the way
0:38:07 you're you've cited this um nikolai
0:38:10 sinai is a professor at oxford is
0:38:12 actually your supervisor for the thesis
0:38:14 uh yes absolutely yeah so i was in uh
0:38:17 obviously in close uh discussion with
0:38:19 him uh when i uh oh well uh throughout
0:38:22 the composition of my uh uh pieces and
0:38:26 uh these are the sort of things that i
0:38:27 believe which he which he also points
0:38:29 out in his discussion on
0:38:31 intertextuality uh so so the point is is
0:38:35 ultimately this let's say suppose that
0:38:37 you know we can point a genetic
0:38:39 connection between a quranic story and a
0:38:42 written biblical text that's that still
0:38:45 does not mean that the quran is
0:38:47 borrowing and copying it the question is
0:38:49 how
0:38:51 how is the quran interacting with it
0:38:53 and
0:38:54 uh more often i think it seems to be
0:38:57 polemical interaction uh uh uh and so
0:39:01 the quranic view seems to be that this
0:39:03 is what actually happened
0:39:05 so that that mindset it interacts with
0:39:08 these
0:39:10 stories without mentioning names i mean
0:39:12 there are um a group of scholars and
0:39:15 people you and i know so um uh
0:39:18 who were fellow students at oxford who
0:39:21 usually evangelicals who still insist
0:39:23 that the quran
0:39:25 in some way endorses the bible um
0:39:28 and so that this call of thought does
0:39:30 exist as i say it seems to be clustered
0:39:32 around evangelicals for reason i still
0:39:33 don't quite understand
0:39:35 nicole's book i think is the most
0:39:37 detailed one uh on this subject uh i
0:39:39 have this er
0:39:41 this book
0:39:42 um so
0:39:44 i need to do more investigation on this
0:39:46 but nonetheless as far as my
0:39:50 intertextual reading of the quran is
0:39:51 concerned and here i'm not only talking
0:39:54 about the story of zechariah
0:39:56 but you know uh
0:39:58 in in
0:39:59 other courses i also had a look at the
0:40:02 story of jesus in the quran the story of
0:40:05 moses and the quran in fact i would uh
0:40:08 recommend an exercise to to all the
0:40:11 viewers
0:40:12 uh
0:40:13 make a listing of all of the story of uh
0:40:16 moses in the quran this will be
0:40:19 difficult because the quran does not in
0:40:20 one place just you know mention the
0:40:22 story of moses so you'll have to spend
0:40:24 some time and you know gathering all of
0:40:26 this material but it can be done either
0:40:28 that's in a few hours time you should be
0:40:29 able to do it too so gather
0:40:31 all the quranic accounts on moses then
0:40:34 just read through uh say exodus one to
0:40:37 exodus 16
0:40:40 compare the two accounts
0:40:42 you will be struck by many points of
0:40:45 sharp contrasts
0:40:47 and it seems uh i wrote a paper on this
0:40:50 or uh one of my teachers a prominent
0:40:53 scholar and my conclusion was that it
0:40:55 seems that the quranic story is a
0:40:58 corrective
0:40:59 of the moses account which
0:41:02 jews and christians would have been
0:41:04 commonly familiar with
0:41:06 and
0:41:07 yeah uh uh my uh marker agreed with this
0:41:12 um
0:41:12 so so i mean it's very difficult to
0:41:16 avoid the conclusion that you are simply
0:41:18 doing an intertextual reading and you
0:41:20 are coming across time after time after
0:41:22 time you know these sharp points of
0:41:24 contrast
0:41:26 that you know
0:41:28 it's as if the quran is very
0:41:30 deliberately intentionally parting ways
0:41:33 that it knows
0:41:36 what is believed
0:41:38 and yet it part ways with it so i don't
0:41:40 think that the quran endorses the bible
0:41:42 or any christian literature
0:41:44 i think
0:41:46 the quran is mostly concerned with the
0:41:48 stories of the prophets
0:41:50 and it has its own viewpoint that
0:41:53 certain things happened in particular
0:41:55 race and if a an existing tradition
0:41:58 agrees with that that's fine and good if
0:42:01 it doesn't the quran doesn't care it'll
0:42:03 pop please with it and you see that you
0:42:05 know in the story of zechariah uh
0:42:08 i quoted uh and i referred to i think
0:42:11 what just a little short of a dozen
0:42:14 christian writers i i began with luke
0:42:17 then i uh uh quoted various other church
0:42:21 fathers
0:42:22 and i looked at the various syriac
0:42:24 writings the you know uh uh uh an
0:42:27 anonymous i think fifth century poem i
0:42:29 looked at saint uh
0:42:31 ephraim
0:42:32 and various other writers and once you
0:42:35 compare the zechariah account with the
0:42:37 quran
0:42:38 uh i mean
0:42:39 it's just very obvious the quran is
0:42:41 disagreeing
0:42:50 it does very clearly and repeatedly
0:42:52 endorse the torah the injil the the the
0:42:55 psalms and growls
0:42:57 sent to the prophets yeah
0:42:58 yeah that was sent to the prophet so
0:43:00 yeah that built up about you know by
0:43:03 implication a dichotomy between those
0:43:05 original revelations and the current
0:43:08 stories as they are circulating um the
0:43:10 quran seems to be saying yes
0:43:13 the originals we endorse those the
0:43:15 current stories
0:43:16 i need to be retold and corrected uh
0:43:19 that's implying there has been some
0:43:21 corruption uh or degrading or alteration
0:43:25 of the original stories
0:43:27 would that be fair
0:43:28 uh yes i completely agree with that so
0:43:30 many times when you look at muslim
0:43:32 writers they frame the discussion in
0:43:34 terms of textual corruption that you
0:43:36 know the quran says that you know the
0:43:38 text of the bible is is corrupted and um
0:43:41 i think that you know while one might be
0:43:43 able to say okay there is some evidence
0:43:45 that the quran mentions in uh q2 uh
0:43:49 verse 79 for example who to them who
0:43:52 write the book with their own hands and
0:43:53 say this is from god that you can say
0:43:55 okay so you know there is a reference
0:43:56 here to uh some sort of a textual
0:43:59 deformity uh with the writings of
0:44:02 of the jews
0:44:04 but i think that the quran is really not
0:44:06 concerned with the textual integrity of
0:44:09 a writing it is the stories which
0:44:11 matters to the quran
0:44:12 so the zakaria story
0:44:15 as it is told in luke and as it is then
0:44:17 pretty much faithfully repeated by a
0:44:20 host of subsequent church fathers uh
0:44:23 uh uh you know very near to the time of
0:44:26 the quran
0:44:27 that
0:44:28 it doesn't matter to the quran uh uh uh
0:44:30 that this story has been textually uh
0:44:34 well its textual status does not matter
0:44:36 the story is false so it may be
0:44:38 textually authentic
0:44:40 that's irrelevant it's it's it's uh
0:44:42 inaccurate
0:44:43 according uh
0:44:45 to my reading of the quran that that's
0:44:47 it stands no i i think that's helpful
0:44:50 and these stories uh that ended up in
0:44:52 the jewish scriptures of course were
0:44:53 told orally themselves according to
0:44:55 biblical scholarship for many centuries
0:44:58 they weren't sort of written down by
0:44:59 moses you know with a pen and paper
0:45:02 the bottom of mount sinai that's not how
0:45:04 it happened uh the stories were told
0:45:06 orally for many centuries so the quran
0:45:08 is also telling its story uh in a
0:45:10 corrective way according to its own
0:45:12 understanding of god and prophethood and
0:45:15 the true order of events as they
0:45:16 actually occurred and it always struck
0:45:18 me as a personal observation here that
0:45:20 that um those christians who do do
0:45:23 maintain that uh the quran uh is
0:45:25 endorsing the bible that the quran uh it
0:45:28 seems uh denies that jesus was
0:45:30 crucified um
0:45:32 although it may appear to some that he
0:45:34 was but in fact he wasn't crucified now
0:45:37 if there is this um awareness of the
0:45:39 biblical corpus which the crime evidence
0:45:42 is clearly in talking about the stories
0:45:44 in some detail moses and so on
0:45:47 when it comes to
0:45:48 yeah and these stories are in the bible
0:45:49 yet when it comes to jesus what's the
0:45:51 one thing according to the new testament
0:45:53 that happened to jesus that matters
0:45:54 according to the christian understanding
0:45:57 that is the crucifixion of jesus so why
0:45:59 would the quran simultaneously endorse
0:46:02 that story seemingly and at the same
0:46:04 time deny it it doesn't make any sense
0:46:06 yeah not only that but but apart from
0:46:09 crucifixion equally critical is the
0:46:11 divinity of jesus the quran is aware
0:46:13 that christians believe uh that you know
0:46:16 jesus is
0:46:17 more than a man than that he is god uh
0:46:21 and you know the uh the divinity of
0:46:23 jesus is something which we can you know
0:46:25 trace back to
0:46:27 for example the gospel of john i think
0:46:29 that uh the gospel of john does portray
0:46:32 jesus as a divine being not as the
0:46:34 second person of the trinity not as
0:46:35 yahweh but as a divine being maybe like
0:46:38 angel or maybe you know above the
0:46:39 hierarchy of an angel
0:46:41 but he is divine and and and uh if you
0:46:44 look at how the quran described jesus as
0:46:47 being uh god's word and you compare the
0:46:51 same language as as this to be found in
0:46:53 the gospel of john
0:46:55 uh i wrote one paper on this topic and i
0:46:57 felt that
0:46:59 the quran is also polemically engaging
0:47:02 with what is there in the gospel of john
0:47:04 not necessarily maybe you know with an
0:47:06 actual copy of the gospel of john but
0:47:08 but you know uh the gospel of john
0:47:11 is the most popular gospel uh perhaps
0:47:14 even more than the gospel of matthew and
0:47:16 his stories would have been uh no
0:47:20 i'm guessing uh even in you know more uh
0:47:23 who would have enjoyed even more wider
0:47:25 circulation uh it's various uh
0:47:28 uh lofty claims about jesus and it
0:47:31 seemed to me that you know where where
0:47:33 the koran
0:47:34 talks about jesus as being god's word
0:47:37 and how you know god simply says be and
0:47:40 it is
0:47:41 um and also the quran
0:47:44 how it compares jesus to adam because
0:47:46 note that there is a jesus adam
0:47:49 comparison there in the new testament
0:47:51 also it's there in paul
0:47:53 so i think that the quran is very
0:47:55 intentionally
0:47:57 parting ways with these
0:47:59 well-known ways of speaking about jesus
0:48:03 and just to add to that very helpful uh
0:48:05 series of observations there usman um
0:48:08 the uh the 112th uh surah of the quran
0:48:12 um
0:48:13 in this translation the purity of faith
0:48:15 more popularly known as
0:48:18 uh in the name of god the lord and mercy
0:48:19 the giver moses one verse
0:48:21 say he is god the one god the eternal he
0:48:25 begot no one nor was he begotten
0:48:28 no one is comparable to him
0:48:31 what does that remind you of what's
0:48:33 going on there so a very first line
0:48:37 means one now it's very interesting the
0:48:39 question is when the quran says that god
0:48:41 is one
0:48:42 the word used is
0:48:44 but here the word used is
0:48:48 what is the reason for that
0:48:50 and i would say if you look at the shema
0:48:52 look at the word for one in hebrew
0:48:54 it is impossible to to miss the
0:48:57 similarity in the sound it's basically
0:48:59 the same word so i think the first line
0:49:01 endorses
0:49:02 the the the hero israel our lord our god
0:49:06 is one uh my pronunciation may be bad
0:49:09 but but i think it's uh
0:49:13 and the quran uses ahad only here so
0:49:16 it's difficult to you know uh
0:49:19 um
0:49:20 deny that you know correspondence
0:49:21 between the two and then when you focus
0:49:24 upon the remainder
0:49:27 that he does not beget and he's not
0:49:28 begotten there's nothing
0:49:32 where am i hearing this um yeah so uh
0:49:36 that is obviously the creel language
0:49:38 that you uh uh come across so uh
0:49:42 i'm forgetting the name of the document
0:49:45 uh uh but i did write a paper on this
0:49:48 also so the quran seems to be making a
0:49:50 precision sprite here uh firstly i like
0:49:53 that
0:49:54 precision i just want to underline that
0:49:55 word yeah it's quite nice nice straight
0:49:57 precision like so it's called strike um
0:50:01 and and the the reference called
0:50:02 begotten not made is in john's gospel
0:50:05 the beginning of john's gospel it's also
0:50:06 there in the creeds the calcium creed
0:50:09 exactly yeah yeah
0:50:10 here it seems to me uh again what do i
0:50:13 know but it seems to me that there is as
0:50:15 you say precision uh polemic against
0:50:19 uh not some obscure unknown christian
0:50:22 sect in downtown mecca that no one's
0:50:24 ever heard of no but again very precise
0:50:26 very crisp
0:50:27 the elephant in the room which is the
0:50:29 the christian church itself in all its
0:50:32 2000 years of creedal belief so that
0:50:35 this is a very
0:50:36 theologically sophisticated and nuanced
0:50:40 rebuttal of
0:50:42 central christian belief in the quran
0:50:45 um yeah
0:50:46 even knowing who wrote it
0:50:48 reading that i would say
0:50:49 this person is is doing some nice
0:50:52 theological work here and not only this
0:50:55 but if you have a look at my discussion
0:50:57 on the story of zechariah and the quran
0:50:59 i again i i describe that also as you
0:51:02 know containing like precision strike
0:51:04 against certain notions which are
0:51:06 recurrent uh in the retelling of the
0:51:10 luca zechariah story uh in the writings
0:51:13 of the church fathers so um
0:51:16 just to mention one point
0:51:18 if you look at saint saint abram and i
0:51:21 quoted the relevant bits and pieces in
0:51:23 my thesis but uh one of the points that
0:51:26 he also mentions while while pointing
0:51:28 out the failings of zachariah uh he says
0:51:32 that um
0:51:34 he he takes the story the lupine story
0:51:37 as also a sign and the punishment to
0:51:39 zechariah as also a sign of the break
0:51:43 between judaism and
0:51:46 and basically jesus that the advent of
0:51:49 jesus somehow you know abolishes or you
0:51:52 know does away with the jewish prayer
0:51:54 system now look at the quranic retelling
0:51:58 uh uh of this account
0:52:00 in the quran in surah maryam i believe
0:52:02 uh so zechariah is in the chamber and he
0:52:05 is praying to god for an heir
0:52:08 a he wants an offspring and what is the
0:52:10 language that he uses he wants
0:52:13 uh someone to lead the house of jacob
0:52:18 and then god responds to him via angels
0:52:21 and says yes so uh john the baptist
0:52:24 zachariah's son
0:52:26 is the inheritor of the house of jacob
0:52:29 so what so so there is the notion of
0:52:32 continuity here the
0:52:34 religious heritage of of zechariah uh
0:52:38 so zechariah is the is leading the house
0:52:41 of jacob and his time he has inherited a
0:52:44 certain you know religious tradition and
0:52:46 god approves the continuation of that
0:52:49 religious tradition
0:52:51 through the line of uh through his line
0:52:53 so his son is then
0:52:55 john the baptist the inheritor of the
0:52:58 house of jacob compare this with saint
0:53:00 abram and you know uh various of the
0:53:03 writers who suggest that
0:53:05 jesus does away with judaism uh
0:53:09 and
0:53:10 and that's basically the um
0:53:12 punishment to zechariah
0:53:14 is taken as an indication
0:53:17 of the ending of you know the jewish
0:53:19 system the prayer system with something
0:53:22 new ushering in uh by jesus so so you
0:53:26 see how that notion how the quran in a
0:53:28 very nuanced way
0:53:30 does away with that
0:53:32 also so you see that happening
0:53:34 i was not familiar with that particular
0:53:36 example it is very very interesting and
0:53:38 yes
0:53:38 what the quran is doing there it
0:53:40 certainly confirms what uh scholars have
0:53:42 now um uh
0:53:44 essentially established as the facts of
0:53:46 the historical jesus namely that he was
0:53:48 a jew i know it sounds trivial but this
0:53:51 is actually quite revolutionary in the
0:53:52 history of christianity uh a jew who
0:53:54 obeyed the law he was a torah observant
0:53:56 jew who wasn't establishing a new
0:53:59 religion called christianity that's
0:54:01 pretty securely established and that his
0:54:04 his disciples also uh were practicing
0:54:06 jews the head of the church after jesus
0:54:08 left the scene of course was his brother
0:54:11 james who was famed for being a torah
0:54:13 observant jew as we know from multiple
0:54:16 independent uh witnesses josephus and
0:54:18 other witnesses mentioned by eusebius so
0:54:21 the quran is affirming something that um
0:54:23 the scholarship has
0:54:25 not preempt the revolution okay preempts
0:54:28 them yes exactly yeah that's
0:54:31 you're good with that yeah so the
0:54:32 conference revolution is from the quran
0:54:34 although it wasn't recognized
0:54:36 exactly so the crown was ahead of the
0:54:38 game
0:54:39 and uh observed something that western
0:54:40 scholars have only recently say in the
0:54:42 last 50 years since the second world war
0:54:44 begun to
0:54:45 partly through the work of ep sanders
0:54:47 who we mentioned earlier to redress this
0:54:49 uh problem of misunderstanding what
0:54:51 jesus was about so he was a jewish
0:54:54 prophet rabbi perhaps messiah according
0:54:57 to western scholars um who didn't
0:54:58 abolish the law and even though paul of
0:55:00 course can be understood to have done
0:55:02 precisely that in some of his letters
0:55:04 ephesians galatians etcetera so we're
0:55:07 really getting into the we're getting
0:55:08 here through his precision
0:55:10 precision strikes getting to the heart
0:55:12 of the matter the truth of the origins
0:55:14 of christianity judaism and the quran
0:55:17 itself and the quran is coming out is an
0:55:19 incredibly sophisticated
0:55:20 work of uh you say it's not a work of
0:55:23 theology but i think there's theology in
0:55:24 there sarah nicholas uh it is is a
0:55:28 tightly packed highly condensed uh piece
0:55:31 of work uh which really resonates
0:55:34 powerfully uh in a polemical way against
0:55:37 uh what it would see as um you know the
0:55:40 the abuses and misunderstandings of
0:55:42 christian theology so
0:55:46 uh yeah uh absolutely and as i said that
0:55:49 you know once you do a close comparative
0:55:51 analysis of quranic stories with the
0:55:52 various biblical accounts not only the
0:55:54 story the obvious stories like you know
0:55:56 the story of moses and of jesus and of
0:55:59 zechariah but you uh if you have a look
0:56:02 at the story of uh for example uh joseph
0:56:06 in the quran and compare that with the
0:56:08 parallel material uh in genesis for
0:56:11 for instance and uh i would recommend uh
0:56:16 the university of oxford uh uh he's a
0:56:21 i think he has just completed his detail
0:56:23 or is uh just about to complete it but
0:56:26 anyway he has some you know very
0:56:28 interesting uh uh lectures on this uh
0:56:33 this comparative analysis on youtube uh
0:56:35 i'll actually share the links with you
0:56:37 so you notice this in story of the story
0:56:40 that the quran is actually you know
0:56:42 engaging in very nuanced very precise
0:56:45 ways
0:56:46 with the various circulating stories so
0:56:48 it's not that uh
0:56:50 uh uh you know sometimes uh various
0:56:52 premises say that
0:56:54 it's just misunderstanding stories and
0:56:56 you know it's just garbled uh
0:56:59 uh
0:56:59 repetition of various stories no that's
0:57:02 not actually the case the quran has its
0:57:05 own viewpoint
0:57:06 it seems to be understanding what what
0:57:09 you know people already believed
0:57:11 about the various prophets and it is
0:57:13 then very precisely
0:57:16 uh interacting with these stories
0:57:19 prompting them with its own tape
0:57:23 no indeed so the crown has its own uh
0:57:25 consistent depiction of the prophets and
0:57:28 god's activity in the world which in
0:57:30 some respects differs from the uh
0:57:33 certain pictures in the bible which is a
0:57:35 library of books of course not a single
0:57:36 book
0:57:38 and there are different voices different
0:57:39 views on a whole range of subjects the
0:57:41 temple god law and so on let alone in
0:57:43 the new testament um so
0:57:46 it's a difficult match to speak of the
0:57:47 biblical view of anything except perhaps
0:57:49 in the most general terms but um but
0:57:52 certainly there are voices in the quran
0:57:54 um which uh sorry that there are voices
0:57:56 in the biblical library which are
0:57:59 politically engaged with by the quran in
0:58:01 a corrective uh re retelling of those
0:58:04 stories so i think that puts to bed the
0:58:07 whole idea of the uh as frankly bizarre
0:58:10 the idea the quran is somehow endorsing
0:58:12 the bible given the wealth of detailed
0:58:15 evidence that you provided in your
0:58:16 thesis um but also as found in uh this
0:58:20 book the arab the bible in arabic by
0:58:22 professor sidney griffiths published by
0:58:24 princeton highly recommend that and also
0:58:26 you're your own uh professor the oxford
0:58:29 uh nikolai sinai uh historical
0:58:32 introduction to the crown uh neither
0:58:33 these writers is a muslim but they are
0:58:35 um top of their fields as experts in
0:58:37 this very subject um
0:58:41 no absolutely i i completely agree with
0:58:43 this and i don't think i can
0:58:44 add anything more to this yeah so that's
0:58:47 a very nice summary
0:58:49 my final question then is uh and people
0:58:51 will ask because i asked you before we
0:58:52 went on on air when are we going to be
0:58:54 able to read when are we all going to be
0:58:56 able to read your thesis when's it going
0:58:58 to be published
0:59:00 uh so um
0:59:02 i want to share it with the public as
0:59:05 soon as possible uh i think probably in
0:59:07 a
0:59:08 few months i'll i'll make it uh
0:59:10 available i do have a page on
0:59:13 academia.edu where some of my
0:59:16 past papers are
0:59:18 available uh so i previously did a m a
0:59:21 in biblical studies also from hip hop
0:59:23 college so uh some of my work on
0:59:25 biblical studies is available there and
0:59:28 i would like to make my thesis available
0:59:30 as soon as possible so i'm waiting for a
0:59:32 few things to transpire
0:59:34 at the university of oxford and uh so
0:59:37 hopefully soon the rocker
0:59:39 uh i will publicly make it available
0:59:42 it would certainly be my hope that a
0:59:44 publisher would um take it upon
0:59:46 themselves to publish this uh perhaps in
0:59:48 an edited form uh you know
0:59:51 i will be editing it yes yeah uh another
0:59:53 thing wrong with it but it is an
0:59:54 academic uh uh thesis uh obviously but
0:59:58 to be limited but the the substance of
1:00:00 it certainly uh is valuable and i i wish
1:00:03 it a wide readership and familiarity
1:00:06 from lots of people and i'd be
1:00:07 interested to hear um responses also to
1:00:10 your thesis in due course once it's
1:00:12 available publicly um because that would
1:00:14 be an ongoing discussion that would be
1:00:16 worth uh watching uh as well absolutely
1:00:18 absolutely i very much like to see
1:00:20 critical feedback because uh yeah i'm
1:00:24 more than open to be corrected
1:00:26 and i would like you know people to to
1:00:28 respond to it to interact with it
1:00:30 critically so that's very much welcome
1:00:33 maybe maybe anthony bannister uh may
1:00:36 hear of this and respond
1:00:38 sadly effie peters who have also quoted
1:00:41 sadly as i say passed away last year
1:00:42 according to wikipedia anyway um but
1:00:45 yeah we'll we'll see we'll watch this
1:00:47 space and uh see what happens i say the
1:00:49 paper won't be available immediately but
1:00:51 hopefully in due course it will be well
1:00:52 um
1:00:53 thank you very much indeed usman sheikh
1:00:56 for your outstanding uh scholarship and
1:00:58 your uh willingness to come on uh to the
1:01:01 channel to talk about it publicly which
1:01:03 is not easy for people to do i
1:01:04 appreciate that
1:01:05 and um
1:01:06 and i i i look forward maybe in the
1:01:08 future
1:01:09 when you produce even more work that we
1:01:11 can also um showcase that
1:01:14 on blogging theology as well um thank
1:01:16 you so much i meant you uh appreciate
1:01:18 this opportunity and i look forward to
1:01:21 joining you again sometime in the future
1:01:23 thank you well thank you and take care
1:01:26 next time