Atheists and the Value of Truth | Podcast Highlight (2021-06-04) ​

0:00:08 mentioned
0:00:09 science being underpinned so the way
0:00:10 nietzsche sort of sees
0:00:12 science he looks at science as the the
0:00:14 corpse of christianity
0:00:16 so science for him isn't the this thing
0:00:19 that sort of
0:00:20 you know like you you see religion like
0:00:22 dawkins puts it as if religion's this
0:00:24 big nasty dragon and it's
0:00:26 trying to kill everything and then
0:00:27 you've got um the
0:00:29 the knight in shining armor that just
0:00:31 rides over the horizon on his
0:00:34 his glorious steed and like and this is
0:00:37 science and then it runs over and it
0:00:39 defeats
0:00:40 the dragon and it's like yes and they
0:00:42 paint you you get it a lot
0:00:44 from these sort of um new atheist types
0:00:48 that science is built up as this sort of
0:00:50 new being
0:00:51 that comes to defeat religion and it and
0:00:54 it's not that
0:00:55 it's not that it's it's quite the
0:00:57 opposite it is
0:00:58 what is left off religion um and they
0:01:01 don't see this and the way
0:01:02 nietzsche describes it he says like
0:01:04 listen the the desire for truth
0:01:06 seeing truth as a higher value is a
0:01:09 moral judgment
0:01:11 you have to see truth as good
0:01:15 you have to see truth as something that
0:01:17 good people want to attain
0:01:19 these are all moral statements and this
0:01:22 they all like he's arguing
0:01:23 in terms of the europeans they derived
0:01:25 this from the bible
0:01:27 they derived this from the religion and
0:01:29 he says this desire
0:01:31 to achieve to truth to look at the world
0:01:34 as if it's intelligible
0:01:36 this derived from christianity as well
0:01:38 in europe specifically
0:01:39 they saw the world as something that was
0:01:41 ordered
0:01:42 by a wise being and not as chaotic like
0:01:46 the greeks prior to
0:01:47 the you know the christian west um they
0:01:50 didn't see the world in the same way
0:01:52 they saw the world as
0:01:53 a very sort of chaotic place
0:01:56 not necessarily something that was
0:01:57 intelligible um
0:01:59 no it was a country christianity gave
0:02:01 rise to this
0:02:02 way of looking at the world and this
0:02:05 moral drive
0:02:06 that pushed them towards wanting to
0:02:07 achieve truth
0:02:09 but then it's sort of the the sting
0:02:12 turns itself against like the you know
0:02:14 the bee that stings itself
0:02:16 he says this moral um drive
0:02:19 that gave rise to the obsession with
0:02:21 truth
0:02:22 and reason in the west um
0:02:25 ended up undermining the very system
0:02:27 which gave rise to that moral drive that
0:02:29 is christianity
0:02:30 and so it kills itself um yeah but
0:02:34 um people are gonna i can imagine what
0:02:35 people are gonna say or atheists are
0:02:37 gonna say
0:02:38 well yeah obviously you know uh atheists
0:02:41 can value truth
0:02:43 yeah yeah no there's nothing there's
0:02:44 something uh that's
0:02:46 from christianity so how is the question
0:02:52 because the question here is is it
0:02:53 necessary why
0:02:55 do you need to value truth now within a
0:02:58 christian framework
0:02:59 it's like well you know if you don't
0:03:01 value truth you burn for an eternity
0:03:04 like in in terms of the atheist it's
0:03:07 instrumental now
0:03:08 it's like well what is the point of
0:03:10 valuing truth if it's just detrimental
0:03:12 to me and everyone i know
0:03:14 it you know and there is no necessary
0:03:17 drive it's like
0:03:18 you know it it becomes instrumental
0:03:21 basically and
0:03:22 yes there is still the possibility for
0:03:24 opening up but
0:03:25 there's nothing there's no like fear of
0:03:27 eternal damnation it's like
0:03:29 well if in this world all of
0:03:32 the positives lie in a false
0:03:35 notion or in a false um direction to
0:03:39 move towards
0:03:39 a lie then there's very little
0:03:42 motivation
0:03:43 if you think of it from a utilitarian
0:03:44 perspective like you move towards the
0:03:47 lie
0:03:48 then there's all of this pleasure that
0:03:49 derives from it if you move towards the
0:03:51 truth there's all of this pain and
0:03:52 there's suffering
0:03:54 like if you're a utilitarian and you're
0:03:56 you're fixed in the dunya you're fixed
0:03:58 in the world
0:03:59 at what point would you want to continue
0:04:01 to value truth there
0:04:03 it becomes you know if you don't believe
0:04:06 in
0:04:06 uh sort of any justice in an afterlife
0:04:10 it's like well you know why would you
0:04:12 keep on to this thing
0:04:14 if it's completely detrimental i get and
0:04:16 that's not to say
0:04:17 um obviously there's certain examples
0:04:19 where this might
0:04:20 be the case but there's it's just
0:04:24 it's not necessary it's basically the
0:04:25 point and because there's
0:04:28 yeah so from my understanding is that
0:04:29 when you turn around and ask the
0:04:30 question why should you value
0:04:32 truth uh a lot of people divorced of a
0:04:35 particular religious belief will turn
0:04:36 around and say
0:04:37 well it's beneficial it's beneficial for
0:04:41 going human beings it's not always yeah
0:04:42 that's right so what you're saying is
0:04:44 actually well okay if it wasn't
0:04:46 beneficial let's just say it wasn't
0:04:47 beneficial just for the
0:04:49 sake of the argument would it be still
0:04:52 valuable
0:04:53 and then you're saying well it's not
0:04:54 valuable anymore so then truth
0:04:56 is only valuable based upon various
0:04:59 benefits and then you can give examples
0:05:01 and i think even donald hoffman who's a
0:05:04 professor in
0:05:05 neuroscience and philosophy of science
0:05:07 he talks about
0:05:09 this idea that evolution adapts to
0:05:11 survival not adapts to truth-finding
0:05:15 so you know he gave a particular
0:05:17 mathematical model in which he
0:05:19 demonstrated how
0:05:20 an organism that is able to see reality
0:05:22 as it is is
0:05:24 less likely to survive than an organism
0:05:26 that's more adopted to survival
0:05:28 even if it's less correlated to truth so
0:05:31 truth-finding
0:05:32 is not necessary for organisms and human
0:05:36 beings in order to have benefit and so
0:05:38 he's basically
0:05:39 his argument is how we see the world is
0:05:41 not really
0:05:42 how the world is it's just how we've
0:05:45 evolved to perceive it
0:05:46 you know as like a user interface of the
0:05:49 world so
0:05:50 truth therefore becomes something that's
0:05:52 not even valued
0:05:54 as a necessary thing as as you mentioned
0:05:57 yourself
0:05:58 and if that i think i think if i could
0:06:00 just
0:06:01 if if i could just add to that shift the
0:06:02 the idea that the truth like the
0:06:06 truth seeking and why we ought to seek
0:06:07 truth right um
0:06:09 is it's it's not that um for
0:06:13 the the nihilist or or or or fernica
0:06:16 it's it's not that
0:06:17 it doesn't matter it's that it restricts
0:06:21 you
0:06:21 right so the the idea is that the
0:06:24 problem
0:06:25 when you guys seek truth it's gonna take
0:06:27 you to this
0:06:28 conclusion that these mythologies are
0:06:31 false
0:06:32 right that there is no true there is no
0:06:34 ultimate truth in the world that we
0:06:35 that you know gives us meaning and that
0:06:38 conclusion if truth does matter
0:06:40 you should follow the implications of
0:06:42 that truth
0:06:43 where it leads you to and you should
0:06:45 become a nihilist and just you know
0:06:47 and it's going to take you to very bad
0:06:48 places that's that's
0:06:50 that i think was nietzsche's idea and
0:06:52 that's why he didn't
0:06:54 truth wasn't the priority for him right
0:06:56 so for him it was like
0:06:57 okay truth matters but in as yusuf put
0:07:01 it in like a
0:07:02 instrumentalist manner like as far
0:07:05 as it helps you useful you know achieve
0:07:08 your drives right achieve
0:07:10 your your your desires and and uh and
0:07:13 but
0:07:13 that has serious implications for
0:07:16 morality for example right
0:07:18 and and it is at the end of the day like
0:07:20 like like there's
0:07:22 you know in terms of cosmic nihilism
0:07:24 right which is
0:07:25 which is an extreme version of
0:07:26 existential nihilism that does have a
0:07:29 huge psychological
0:07:30 implication on humans right the fact
0:07:32 that you're me your
0:07:33 your existence is utterly meaningless on
0:07:36 a cosmic scale
0:07:38 uh so if it's meaningless on a cosmic
0:07:40 scale why would you even
0:07:41 value meaning of truth for morality
0:07:45 on an individual skill yeah yeah the the
0:07:48 the idea is that the
0:07:49 existentialist tries to get out of this
0:07:51 by by by saying that what wait you're
0:07:53 you guys are ignoring the subjective
0:07:55 aspect
0:07:55 of meaning it's it's objective why why
0:07:57 why should it be relative to the cosmos
0:08:00 but then the problem is you're going to
0:08:01 be going in circles again you're back
0:08:03 where you started you're trying to
0:08:04 you again get to create this
0:08:06 metanarrative you can't however you are
0:08:08 going to try to create meaning
0:08:10 you will create this story this
0:08:13 mythology
0:08:14 about why a certain truth matters like
0:08:17 for example why happiness matters
0:08:19 and and you are going to stick to that
0:08:21 as some kind of transcendent truth
0:08:23 and and the issues you're going to face
0:08:25 if you're concerned with metaphysics and
0:08:27 truth
0:08:28 the difficulty of uh you know validating
0:08:32 such meaning
0:08:32 on a materialistic world i mean a lot of
0:08:35 people have attempted to do that i don't
0:08:37 want to
0:08:38 i don't excuse me i don't want to like
0:08:40 straw man or oversimplify
0:08:42 their position but in my view uh uh i
0:08:45 think it's very difficult to make it
0:08:46 work well i mean it's it's one of two
0:08:48 options you're either going to
0:08:50 say it's it's a it's a just it's a
0:08:52 useful fiction
0:08:54 or you're going to try to say to just
0:08:57 make some kind of uh you know ad hoc
0:08:59 assertion that it's just
0:09:02 it's just they're just like what what
0:09:04 some materials do with consciousness
0:09:05 that it just it's just an emergent
0:09:07 property with with no further
0:09:09 explanation required whatsoever so
0:09:10 morality just
0:09:12 is just super vigilant on the physical
0:09:14 and we can just call ourselves
0:09:15 non-reductive physicalists
0:09:17 and non-naturalists in that sense so
0:09:20 excuse me again
0:09:21 uh so so the problem that's that's i
0:09:23 think the problem it's not that truth
0:09:25 doesn't matter
0:09:26 it's that truth is going to lead us to
0:09:28 this you know this this
0:09:30 uh skepticism right this this
0:09:33 nihilism about the world right there's
0:09:34 there's no ultimate meaning and i think
0:09:36 that is the fundamental presumption that
0:09:39 that nietzsche has
0:09:40 i just want to add on what you said
0:09:41 there so this idea of it being
0:09:43 restrictive is is
0:09:45 a really really important point so it's
0:09:48 like when it comes to someone because
0:09:49 nietzsche's whole process was basically
0:09:51 and there's going to be this um the
0:09:53 destroying of the status quo in terms of
0:09:55 what the values are
0:09:56 in society and then the society would
0:09:59 have to go through this process of
0:10:00 reevaluation of values now in that
0:10:03 reevaluation
0:10:04 truth doesn't have to be valued if you
0:10:07 find it something restrictive
0:10:09 then you can continue to build a new
0:10:12 value system where truth doesn't play a
0:10:13 part in it
0:10:14 and that you don't have to maybe because
0:10:17 you do
0:10:18 you don't like the things that you know
0:10:20 come out of that but people don't for
0:10:22 example
0:10:22 this idea that um and we need to touch
0:10:25 on this as well that why if there's a
0:10:26 cosmic nihilism does that
0:10:28 necessarily entail existential nihilism
0:10:31 on like a personal level
0:10:33 and and the reason is is like if you
0:10:36 want to feel
0:10:37 meaning in a um in an authentic manner
0:10:40 it becomes impossible when you
0:10:42 understand that or
0:10:44 you've come to an understanding where
0:10:45 you see the world as nothing but
0:10:47 um being on the foundational level just
0:10:50 empty matter there's no conscious push
0:10:52 it's all random atoms hitting each other
0:10:55 it's all chaos it's all absurd
0:10:57 if you've got this notion off the absurd
0:10:59 at the foundation of
0:11:00 everything any meaning that you build on
0:11:02 top of that
0:11:03 becomes necessarily an act like child's
0:11:07 play
0:11:08 like the children on the playground when
0:11:10 they're playing make-believe you can't
0:11:12 there's that's always at the back of
0:11:13 your head and if it's
0:11:15 at the back of your head unless you you
0:11:17 build a wall between you and it
0:11:19 then yeah you can you can you can't play
0:11:22 with meaning in an authentic manner
0:11:33 you