Dr. Norman Finkelstein - Gaza: A Concentration Camp | Podcast Highlight (2021-06-05) ​

0:00:08 yeah abdulrahman i think
0:00:09 uh dr norman finkelstein has uh is able
0:00:13 to join us i think no it's okay let's
0:00:16 get him on
0:00:19 hello dr norman how are you
0:00:22 great to have you it's a pleasure
0:00:26 okay yes so so um
0:00:29 so guys obviously dr norman is a very
0:00:31 special guest uh most of you probably do
0:00:34 know him
0:00:34 uh just gonna give a brief intro here uh
0:00:37 dr norman
0:00:38 norman frankenstein is an american
0:00:39 political scientist and activist
0:00:41 his uh primary areas of research are
0:00:44 the palestinian-israeli conflict and
0:00:48 he received his phd from the politics
0:00:51 department of the princeton university
0:00:52 in 1988 he's the author of ten books i'm
0:00:55 not sure if that's updated information
0:00:56 but up to 10 books that have been
0:00:58 translated i think it's over dated i
0:01:00 don't think i've written 10 books
0:01:02 this is from your website i guess
0:01:04 they'll have to correct that but then
0:01:06 yesterday 11 books they're talking about
0:01:09 writing books like it's tea bags
0:01:12 that's not a word
0:01:15 yeah well this is the information on
0:01:16 your website and it says that you've
0:01:18 written 10 books translated into 50
0:01:20 foreign editions
0:01:22 my my wonderful web manager of samakasam
0:01:25 she's a palestinian lives in uh greece
0:01:28 brilliant brilliant brilliant woman
0:01:30 a chemist yeah it was the website i
0:01:33 don't know anything about the web i
0:01:34 don't know anything about social media
0:01:36 i've never been on facebook twitter
0:01:38 instagram or any of that other crap
0:01:41 so uh i don't know what's on my website
0:01:44 well you've been a huge influence in
0:01:45 this area and
0:01:46 and uh and i'm sure uh many of us here
0:01:49 recognize that anybody who's concerned
0:01:51 with the palestinian israeli conflict
0:01:53 knows your name and
0:01:55 definitely knows of your work so we're
0:01:57 very happy to have you here
0:01:59 and uh i guess we'll get right into it
0:02:02 um and i mean with with basically the
0:02:06 context of what's happening right now
0:02:09 in mind um i guess we wanted to just ask
0:02:11 you a few questions
0:02:13 to to to get a bit of insight on on the
0:02:15 situation
0:02:16 uh so so um i want to start with this
0:02:19 idea of israel's right to defend itself
0:02:22 with with what's going on right now
0:02:23 because that's a common theme
0:02:25 we hear these days as if
0:02:28 so to speak both sides have blood on
0:02:31 their hands
0:02:32 which might generally be true but it's
0:02:34 as if they're on equal grounding
0:02:36 and and israel has a right to defense
0:02:39 defend defend itself against the
0:02:41 terrorists of palestine
0:02:43 what would you say to that okay just
0:02:45 hold on i want to just grab a book
0:02:48 from them while he's doing that
0:02:52 um we could play a clip
0:02:55 um because
0:02:59 because dr uh finkelstein actually wrote
0:03:01 a book that's related to this uh
0:03:04 very question which is on gaza
0:03:07 so you might be grabbing that yes it's
0:03:10 um
0:03:11 sorry it's gaza an inquest into its
0:03:13 smart system i think it's that one
0:03:16 i've muted him just for a sec uh because
0:03:18 i don't know
0:03:19 what's going to go with that phone call
0:03:21 yeah i mean because uh
0:03:22 dr norman finkelstein is not on for too
0:03:25 long it's probably best not to play any
0:03:26 clip just in case
0:03:27 yeah let's just let's just have him
0:03:29 answer the questions in his whole time
0:03:30 then we can play the clips uh later
0:03:32 inshallah
0:03:34 but yeah um
0:03:37 so uh let's talk about your question
0:03:42 does israel have the right to
0:03:44 self-defense
0:03:46 uh in 2003
0:03:51 israel one of israel's leading
0:03:53 sociologists at the hebrew university
0:03:57 uh his name was baruch kimberling he's
0:03:59 since passed away
0:04:02 uh he wrote a book called politicide
0:04:06 and he described gaza in 2003. i want
0:04:10 you to keep in mind the year for what
0:04:12 i'm going to say to you in a moment
0:04:14 in 2003 he described gaza
0:04:18 as the largest concentration camp ever
0:04:22 that was a senior sociologist
0:04:26 at the hebrew university an eminent
0:04:29 sociologist
0:04:31 now gaza
0:04:34 in 2003
0:04:37 was kind of a dreamland
0:04:41 as compared to what it has become
0:04:45 because the blockade of gaza
0:04:50 didn't begin in full force until 2006
0:04:55 when israel imposed the
0:04:59 blockade in retaliation
0:05:03 for the parliamentary elections
0:05:06 which former u.s president jimmy carter
0:05:09 called
0:05:10 fair and free elections in which
0:05:14 the the civilian wing of hamas
0:05:18 won the election so the people of
0:05:21 gaza were punished for
0:05:25 participating in democratic elections
0:05:29 and electing the wrong party to power
0:05:33 from the point of view of the us and
0:05:35 israel
0:05:37 and then the blockade was imposed on
0:05:39 gaza
0:05:41 the god blockade was tightened in 2007
0:05:47 when the united states israel and some
0:05:50 palestinian collaborators attempted a
0:05:54 coup
0:05:55 against the legally elected government
0:05:57 of hamas
0:05:59 and the coup was preempted it was foiled
0:06:04 so for the past 15 years
0:06:08 let's see what what let's see
0:06:12 what gaza looks like
0:06:15 two facts begin any discussion of gaza
0:06:20 70 of gaza's population are refugees
0:06:23 and descendants of refugees
0:06:27 they were the ones who were expelled
0:06:29 from israel in 1947
0:06:34 number two one half or more
0:06:39 a little more than half of gaza's 2.1
0:06:43 million
0:06:45 people are children
0:06:48 they're under the age of 18.
0:06:52 so you have an overwhelmingly refugee
0:06:54 population
0:06:56 you have an overwhelmingly child
0:06:58 population
0:07:01 now because of that illegal
0:07:04 immoral that criminal blockade of gaza
0:07:09 80 of the people of gaza
0:07:14 are in humanitarian aid relief
0:07:17 because israel doesn't let anything in
0:07:20 or anything out
0:07:22 above the bear bear
0:07:25 minimum to survive
0:07:29 96 of the water in gaza
0:07:33 according to world have the world health
0:07:35 organization
0:07:37 is unfit for human consumption
0:07:44 every few years israel launches
0:07:48 another murderous massacre of gaza
0:07:53 in 2007 to eight it was operation cast
0:07:56 led in 2012
0:07:58 it was operation pillar of defense in
0:08:01 2014
0:08:02 it was operation protective edge
0:08:08 gaza you know what gaza is
0:08:11 you know what gaza is
0:08:14 it's the length of a marathon
0:08:17 is a little less than a marathon a
0:08:20 marathon in in
0:08:21 our uh measurements it's 26.2 miles
0:08:26 gaza is 25 miles
0:08:29 in length and with
0:08:33 i use the example from my own hometown
0:08:37 it's about a little more than twice the
0:08:40 size of central park
0:08:42 that's gaza that's gaza
0:08:47 the length of a marathon
0:08:50 the width about twice the length of
0:08:53 central park
0:08:57 that's gaza
0:09:01 that tiny sliver of land
0:09:05 that these murderous
0:09:10 hordes these mongol hordes
0:09:14 have been suffocating since 2006
0:09:19 leaving aside all the atrocities it
0:09:21 committed in gaza before
0:09:23 2006 that's a whole other story
0:09:28 just to take one of the massacres that
0:09:30 committed
0:09:31 during the israeli british french
0:09:34 invasion of
0:09:35 egypt in 1956
0:09:39 pick up this comic book of sophisticated
0:09:41 comic book a very sophisticated comic
0:09:43 book
0:09:44 by joe sacco sacco
0:09:48 to read about the stories of the
0:09:49 massacres in gaza in 1956
0:09:52 they lined up several hundred
0:09:54 palestinians in gaza
0:09:56 and shot them dead that's right they
0:09:59 lined them up
0:10:00 and shot them dead that's already
0:10:03 ancient history
0:10:07 and then you ask yourself a simple
0:10:10 question
0:10:13 according to human rights watching this
0:10:15 recent report
0:10:17 called the threshold crossed
0:10:20 it said that israel is committing i'm
0:10:22 using their language
0:10:24 crimes against humanity in gaza
0:10:28 listen to the terminology crimes against
0:10:30 humanity
0:10:31 that's at a higher level than war crimes
0:10:34 under international law as human rights
0:10:38 watch says
0:10:40 crimes against humanity are quote among
0:10:42 the most obvious crimes
0:10:44 odio us among the most odious crimes
0:10:47 in international law
0:10:50 so now you ask yourself a simple
0:10:53 question
0:10:54 it is so simple that maybe even
0:10:58 some people in university professorships
0:11:01 could understand it it's that simple
0:11:06 ask yourself the question do
0:11:08 concentration camp guards have the right
0:11:10 to self-defense
0:11:13 your concentration camp guards have the
0:11:16 right to self-defense
0:11:18 dr norman if if i could just like um bro
0:11:21 kimberly called gaza a concentration
0:11:24 camp where i say
0:11:25 it was like a paradise
0:11:30 so the question is so stupid
0:11:35 it's beyond words there are
0:11:38 one million and more
0:11:41 children
0:11:44 who are trapped in gaza
0:11:48 one million or more children trapped
0:11:52 in gaza daily consuming water
0:11:57 that is unfit for human consumption
0:12:00 and you're asking me whether the
0:12:04 power the concentration camp
0:12:07 guards and their seniors
0:12:12 whether they have the right to
0:12:14 self-defense
0:12:16 in the real world it's such an insane
0:12:19 question
0:12:20 i don't even understand how
0:12:22 sophisticated
0:12:24 serious human rights organizations like
0:12:27 human rights watch
0:12:28 amnesty how they can use
0:12:31 terminology like that i really
0:12:35 i know some of these people i respect
0:12:38 some of these people but to me
0:12:42 it's kind of mind-boggling
0:12:45 i assume they're parents they have
0:12:48 children they know
0:12:52 that more than half the population of
0:12:55 gaza
0:12:55 is children how can you
0:12:59 possibly believe
0:13:02 a state that's trapping one million
0:13:05 children in a concentration camp
0:13:08 can have a right to self-defense
0:13:12 commitment is so lunatic yeah i hear i
0:13:15 hear what you're saying dr norman maybe
0:13:17 this this
0:13:19 to my mother and father yeah
0:13:22 so this this follow-up this is crazy
0:13:25 yeah so this follow-up question might
0:13:27 even seem more
0:13:28 uh insane or lunatic so i hope you have
0:13:30 uh
0:13:31 the patience to answer it someone might
0:13:33 like someone with zionist inclinations
0:13:35 might push back and say
0:13:36 that the history of hamas precedes that
0:13:40 of their rule over gaza
0:13:43 and that they were uh basically uh
0:13:47 incorporated or established as a
0:13:49 military
0:13:50 uh movement dedicated to the
0:13:53 annihilation of any notion of a jewish
0:13:55 state or a zionist state
0:13:57 so israel right now would be basically
0:13:59 preempting
0:14:00 a self defense so that they don't
0:14:03 basically get wiped away as per the uh
0:14:07 main motive of hamas in the first place
0:14:12 when you looked at the nazi defenders
0:14:15 the actual
0:14:16 einsatzgruppen those were the killing
0:14:18 squads of the nazis
0:14:21 so one of the einstein's group and
0:14:23 leaders
0:14:24 said was asked you know how do you
0:14:26 justify killing jewish children
0:14:28 how do you justify killing jewish church
0:14:31 and he said well it's simple
0:14:33 because after what they did to their
0:14:35 parents
0:14:36 when they grow up they're going to want
0:14:38 to kill us so we're going to kill them
0:14:40 first
0:14:42 yeah basically the same answer yeah
0:14:44 that's the kind of logic you're telling
0:14:46 me
0:14:47 yes i have elijah the dark because we
0:14:50 killed their parents they're probably
0:14:51 going to be very angry which is probably
0:14:53 true
0:14:54 and so when they grow up they probably
0:14:56 want to kill us which is
0:14:58 also probably true so we should kill
0:15:01 them now
0:15:02 oh yeah that makes a lot of sense to me
0:15:04 oh yeah a b c
0:15:05 i have an idea i have a guy i have a
0:15:08 good idea here's my idea
0:15:11 don't kill their parents
0:15:14 and then you won't have to kill them
0:15:18 how about treating them like human
0:15:19 beings first and see how they react
0:15:23 you expelled them from their homes in
0:15:25 1947
0:15:28 according to human rights watch that was
0:15:30 a crime against humanity
0:15:33 in fact according to human rights watch
0:15:35 if you look at the report
0:15:37 they say all those refugees have a right
0:15:39 to return to their home they still do
0:15:41 right now that's what the law is
0:15:43 that's what the law is you may not like
0:15:46 the law you may think the law is
0:15:47 unfair hey the native americans get to
0:15:50 go back to new york city
0:15:51 okay you can quarrel with human rights
0:15:53 watch about that
0:15:54 but the law is they have the right to
0:15:56 return that's the law
0:15:59 so i say start obeying the law
0:16:04 start treating them like human beings
0:16:07 stop carrying on to use the words of
0:16:10 that
0:16:10 selling israel's leading human rights
0:16:12 organization
0:16:15 stop carrying out like jewish
0:16:16 supremacists
0:16:19 or to use the expression of human rights
0:16:22 watch
0:16:24 stop trying to institute an ins and a
0:16:26 regime of jewish domination
0:16:30 carry on like you're not uber mentioned
0:16:33 superman carry on like arabs aren't
0:16:37 intervention sub-humans in other words
0:16:41 stop carrying on like nazis and then
0:16:44 let's see maybe you can live together
0:16:45 maybe you can figure it out
0:16:49 yeah and and i would tell them let's
0:16:52 start from the beginning stop committing
0:16:54 crimes against humanity
0:16:56 and if you've committed them try to
0:16:58 rectify them
0:17:00 and if it's hard to rectify them then
0:17:02 sit down with them and see where you can
0:17:04 get
0:17:05 figure it out i've been to gaza
0:17:09 i've been to the occupied territories i
0:17:11 know palestinians
0:17:12 perfectly reasonable people of course
0:17:14 they're crazy people among them they're
0:17:16 crazy people in every
0:17:17 population but in general perfectly
0:17:20 reasonable people
0:17:22 you can talk to them if they have
0:17:25 leaders who are unreasonable
0:17:27 the population will react by rejecting
0:17:30 their leadership
0:17:31 that's what populations really usually
0:17:33 do
0:17:35 absolutely people have so long as they
0:17:37 have the democratic
0:17:39 power to express their opinion
0:17:42 as they did in 2006 as i said i think
0:17:45 most
0:17:46 palestinians are reasonable my
0:17:48 impression
0:17:50 reasonable people you could probably
0:17:52 reach
0:17:53 a reasonable settlement of the conflict
0:17:56 and
0:17:57 move on but don't carry on like you have
0:18:01 the right
0:18:03 to torture these people to torment these
0:18:06 people
0:18:06 and then react react in shock
0:18:10 when they fire a bunch of
0:18:15 fireworks at your country
0:18:19 if you look at right now last night
0:18:22 and this morning i was curious
0:18:26 based on my own research and writing on
0:18:30 the past israeli massacres i started to
0:18:33 go
0:18:33 carefully through the web i never used
0:18:35 to ever hate the word
0:18:37 so okay i hate work but i started to
0:18:41 look through the web what actual damage
0:18:44 have these rockets done to israel this
0:18:46 time
0:18:46 you hear all these horror stories all
0:18:49 these horrors are
0:18:51 2300 rockets fired so far
0:18:54 2300 rockets fired so far
0:18:58 you would expect massive
0:19:01 huge destruction and death
0:19:05 in gaza excuse me in israel
0:19:09 yeah yeah and you look at it so i have
0:19:11 the statistics here as well
0:19:13 perfectly nothing
0:19:16 i'm okay and with with this with this
0:19:18 extreme uh disproportional
0:19:20 like the disproportional numbers here
0:19:22 that we have on the screen
0:19:24 there's a little confusion here or go
0:19:26 back to
0:19:27 our look
0:19:30 you can always claim you can always make
0:19:33 the argument
0:19:35 that there are far more many palestinian
0:19:38 debts
0:19:39 than israeli deaths because israelis
0:19:42 have
0:19:42 bomb shelters and they do have a very
0:19:45 effective
0:19:46 home or homeland
0:19:49 shelter system it's a complicated one
0:19:51 with cell phones you know the whole
0:19:53 thing uh yeah so you can make the
0:19:55 argument so that can explain
0:19:57 the disparity in depths
0:20:01 but that can't explain
0:20:04 the disparity in infrastructural damage
0:20:09 because homes
0:20:12 hospitals government offices
0:20:15 they don't go into shelters
0:20:18 so the interesting statistic is
0:20:22 they say the hamas has fired 2300
0:20:25 lethal rockets in israel and what is a
0:20:28 country supposed to do
0:20:30 and don't we have the right to
0:20:31 self-defense well i assigned
0:20:33 concentration camp guards don't have the
0:20:35 right to self-defense but let's leave
0:20:37 that aside
0:20:38 let's look at the actual record what
0:20:40 kind of
0:20:42 what kind of barrage
0:20:45 are you facing and then you start
0:20:47 looking i looked up
0:20:49 may 12th which is when the hamas
0:20:52 projectiles began
0:20:54 may 13th may 14th may 15th may 16th
0:20:58 it was practically nothing practically
0:21:02 nothing so people say oh what about they
0:21:05 had to close down the airport well guess
0:21:07 what
0:21:08 he also closed down the airport in 2014
0:21:11 who was for one day um
0:21:14 and there was nothing in 2014. there was
0:21:17 no damage
0:21:19 look at the statistics look at the
0:21:22 numbers
0:21:23 i looked at the numbers i looked very
0:21:25 carefully at them
0:21:27 in 2014 during operation protective edge
0:21:31 they destroyed eighteen thousand
0:21:33 palestinian homes
0:21:35 eighteen thousand these mongol hordes
0:21:38 they destroyed eighteen thousand
0:21:40 palestinian homes remember
0:21:42 these are the homes of people who are
0:21:44 already evicted from their homeland
0:21:48 and now their homes are being destroyed
0:21:51 they destroy you know how many israeli
0:21:53 homes were destroyed
0:21:55 you remember in 2014 the hamas rockets
0:21:57 how much rockets armstrong
0:21:59 go look at the numbers brace yourself
0:22:03 one one israeli home
0:22:06 was destroyed and my guess is hamas
0:22:09 fired its
0:22:10 bottle rockets and it probably hit the
0:22:13 boiler room of a home
0:22:15 these aren't rockets
0:22:18 dr norman with i uh with with these with
0:22:21 these like i hate to cut you off i just
0:22:22 want to get as many questions as i can
0:22:24 in
0:22:25 with these disproportionate like uh uh
0:22:27 numbers we're seeing and with the
0:22:29 disproportionate
0:22:30 uh artillery that each side has in hand
0:22:32 clearly it's uncomparable
0:22:35 when it's so obvious like this why do
0:22:37 you think that the western
0:22:38 western governments give their utmost
0:22:42 support
0:22:43 to to to to israel and we i think we saw
0:22:45 i saw yesterday
0:22:46 that um the the u.s representative what
0:22:50 was his name
0:22:50 um ned price u.s state department
0:22:53 spokesman
0:22:54 when he when he said that israel has a
0:22:56 right to defend himself
0:22:57 the journalist kind of pushed back and
0:22:59 told him well do palestinians and he's
0:23:01 you know sort of uh stumbled and and
0:23:03 stuttered on the words and couldn't
0:23:05 really answer and give a straightforward
0:23:06 answer that they do
0:23:08 why is it that western governments are
0:23:10 explicitly in support of israel
0:23:13 despite the clear inhumane acts that
0:23:16 israel commits
0:23:17 i look that question has so many
0:23:20 dimensions to it
0:23:22 the answer to it is so it's not that
0:23:25 it's complicated because there's nothing
0:23:26 in politics that's intrinsically
0:23:29 complicated it's that it's
0:23:32 multi-dimensional if you want to look
0:23:33 for a single answer it's very rare
0:23:36 it's almost in any political situation
0:23:39 it's like when you look at yourself when
0:23:41 you do
0:23:42 some noble deed is it pure
0:23:46 or do you have other self-interested
0:23:48 motives
0:23:49 some vanity motives so
0:23:52 even when we attempt to be as pure as we
0:23:56 can as human beings
0:23:57 it's very hard you know because there's
0:23:59 always an
0:24:00 alloy of motives and then when you get
0:24:03 to politics
0:24:04 it's also it's very hard to sort it out
0:24:07 i would say in the current situation
0:24:11 biden president biden he has a long
0:24:14 history of support for israel
0:24:16 his administration support you know it's
0:24:19 old-timers even
0:24:21 new old-timers all people who've already
0:24:24 gone through the bureaucracy
0:24:25 and it's kind of a reflex they don't
0:24:28 even think about it you support
0:24:30 israel they don't even remember why but
0:24:32 they notice most of
0:24:33 you know they're supposed to support
0:24:34 israel so part of it is a reflex
0:24:38 part of it is
0:24:41 the us government all the governments
0:24:44 in the middle east
0:24:47 uh aside at this moment from iran aside
0:24:50 from iran
0:24:52 they're all worried about popular
0:24:54 uprisings among their own people
0:24:57 so you can be sure that
0:25:00 netanyahu is telling sisi in egypt
0:25:04 you know if hamas wins
0:25:07 you know what kind of impact it's going
0:25:09 to have among the egyptian brotherhood
0:25:12 the muslim brotherhood who sisi
0:25:14 overthrew
0:25:15 uh in the coup the army coup you know
0:25:18 it's going to energize them so
0:25:20 you too want to suppress them and as
0:25:23 you're saying the same thing to jordan
0:25:25 you don't want to energize those
0:25:27 palestinians living in jordan do you
0:25:29 you don't want to give them hope and
0:25:33 so all the leaders
0:25:36 have a common interest in
0:25:40 suppressing this popular resistance
0:25:44 in gaza so that's a kind of what you
0:25:46 might call
0:25:47 a generic response there is a kind of
0:25:51 instinctive response by us
0:25:53 administrations
0:25:55 and then there's the generic response by
0:25:57 all of these governments
0:25:58 in power who are terrified
0:26:02 at this popular resistance to
0:26:06 uh uh bruno regimes
0:26:11 and now the popular resistance in
0:26:15 gaza has spread to inside israel
0:26:19 less so the west bank well what do you
0:26:21 think this message sends to sisi
0:26:25 his his people are not exactly thrilled
0:26:28 with his leadership
0:26:30 what do you think the letter the lesson
0:26:32 it sends to
0:26:33 jordan the jordanian leadership abdullah
0:26:36 so they all are terrified of popular
0:26:39 resistance
0:26:40 especially as they watch it spread it
0:26:43 starts in gaza
0:26:45 then in the blink of an eye it's now in
0:26:47 lud
0:26:48 it's in haifa it's in jaffa so they're
0:26:51 terrified
0:26:52 all of them of that prospect
0:26:56 and then of course there's the view that
0:27:00 uh iran and hezbollah
0:27:04 are party to the uh resistance in gaza
0:27:10 so of course the saudis who see the
0:27:12 whole
0:27:13 region as the iranian axis versus them
0:27:17 they're terrified of what's going on in
0:27:19 gaza
0:27:20 because it seems in their view it's
0:27:22 another victory
0:27:24 for iran you know it's yemen it's syria
0:27:27 and now it's gaza so they're terrified
0:27:31 they're all so terrified i'll tell you
0:27:33 why they're also terrified
0:27:35 because the saudi parasites
0:27:38 they look for foreign governments to
0:27:40 pull their chestnuts out of the fire
0:27:42 they can't fight
0:27:43 saudis can't do anything saudis can just
0:27:47 barely get out of the bed in the morning
0:27:51 and now they see this
0:27:54 sliver of land that's been hermetically
0:27:57 sealed
0:27:58 for 15 years it's actually
0:28:04 uh humbling the regional superpower
0:28:06 their
0:28:07 superpower saudi superpower the saudis
0:28:10 are hoping that you know the israelis
0:28:12 with the americans would bail them out
0:28:16 in conflict with iran and now um
0:28:19 israel is having a hard time with gaza
0:28:24 you know so there are so many factors
0:28:28 at play and it would take probably
0:28:31 hours to sort them out and then once you
0:28:33 sort them out you don't have to balance
0:28:35 them
0:28:36 it's a it's a complicated picture but
0:28:40 i'll tell you
0:28:41 yeah i understand i understand i have no
0:28:43 love for biden
0:28:45 for sure i have no love for biden i mean
0:28:48 you can't hate the guy because he's a
0:28:50 corpse
0:28:51 so i don't i can't say i hate him but i
0:28:54 have no love for him
0:28:55 if i loved him i'd have to be a
0:28:56 necrophiliac which i'm not
0:28:58 so i don't know
0:29:02 i don't pay him i don't love him but
0:29:05 i i kind of disagree with people who are
0:29:08 criticizing him now
0:29:10 because i kind of think biden is quietly
0:29:14 telling netanyahu
0:29:17 uh you can take this
0:29:20 further we're now in i guess it's
0:29:24 what a week now of the israeli murderous
0:29:26 assaults in gaza
0:29:29 and it's about 200 people dead
0:29:33 and for every loss of life you know it's
0:29:35 there but the grace of god go on
0:29:37 it could be me so we don't want to
0:29:40 trivialize
0:29:41 any loss of life
0:29:44 i was wondering however
0:29:48 just from perspective on day one of
0:29:52 operation
0:29:53 cast lead in 2008 day one
0:29:57 the first five minutes the first five
0:29:59 minutes
0:30:00 israel bombed a graduation ceremony in
0:30:03 gaza it was police officers
0:30:06 not army just traffic cops
0:30:10 it bombed uh a graduation ceremony in
0:30:13 the first five minutes
0:30:14 it killed between two and three hundred
0:30:18 uh people with the uh young people at
0:30:21 the graduation ceremony
0:30:23 so compared to that and not wanting to
0:30:27 in any way diminish
0:30:28 the intensity of the bombing yeah it's
0:30:31 you know it's shaking the earth tremors
0:30:36 um it's actually rather mild compared to
0:30:39 what israel has done in the past now i
0:30:41 don't know where it's going to go
0:30:43 but so far i think personally no proof
0:30:47 total speculation always have to say
0:30:50 when you have facts and when you have
0:30:51 speculation
0:30:52 total speculation i think biden is the
0:30:56 reason for that
0:30:58 i think biden is saying look i have 14
0:31:01 members of the security council who want
0:31:04 to pass a ceasefire resolution
0:31:06 i'm holding them off i'm doing you a
0:31:08 favor i'm holding them off
0:31:11 i'm getting messages from our
0:31:13 ambassadors
0:31:15 in iraq where there was a demonstration
0:31:18 yesterday i've never seen a
0:31:19 demonstration like that it looked like
0:31:20 the whole country was out
0:31:23 and there are protests in jordan there
0:31:25 are protests in
0:31:26 lebanon and biden says
0:31:30 and now i have all these young congress
0:31:34 people who are attacking me
0:31:36 so by me is saying look i'll support you
0:31:41 but no no major massacres
0:31:44 no major massacres because if you carry
0:31:47 out a major massacre and don't tell me
0:31:49 it's an accident
0:31:50 i know you can carry on a massacre or
0:31:53 not carry on a massacre
0:31:54 you have the capability so don't give me
0:31:57 the bs about
0:31:58 accidents and this you know um misfires
0:32:02 and malfunctions
0:32:04 you don't carry out any massacre or you
0:32:06 lose me or i'm out
0:32:07 i'm out and that's why i think it's
0:32:11 for israel those mongol hordes
0:32:14 it's relatively compared to the past
0:32:17 it's been controlled and
0:32:20 there hasn't been there's been two uh
0:32:24 high rises demolished i think the second
0:32:27 will be the last because
0:32:30 uh ap you don't attack ap don't attack
0:32:33 associated press not smart move israel
0:32:35 not smart move and ap is now you know
0:32:40 passing on its uh discontent to the
0:32:43 state department
0:32:44 uh and i think my guess is pure
0:32:47 speculation
0:32:48 uh biden communicated them listen guys
0:32:52 you don't attack ap that's my country
0:32:55 you don't attack ap so i would say
0:32:59 probably behind the scenes
0:33:03 especially because biden wants to be
0:33:06 a fdr he wants to be what they call a
0:33:09 transformative
0:33:10 president he doesn't want to get boggled
0:33:14 bogged down sucked in
0:33:17 to this israeli lunacy he doesn't want
0:33:20 to
0:33:21 especially because he doesn't like
0:33:22 netanyahu
0:33:24 he remembers how netanyahu carried on
0:33:26 during the obama administration
0:33:28 and he was the vice president when this
0:33:32 obnoxious
0:33:34 jewish supremacist racist
0:33:39 head of state barged into our congress
0:33:44 and lectures the u.s government of which
0:33:47 he was the vice president
0:33:48 on what they should know about iran
0:33:52 like we spend tens of billions of
0:33:54 dollars hundreds of billions of dollars
0:33:56 on our military on our intelligence
0:34:01 but we need the jewish
0:34:05 geniuses the uber mention
0:34:09 the supermen to come to our congress
0:34:12 and tell us what we don't know
0:34:16 i don't think biden liked that
0:34:19 and it's still that same jewish
0:34:22 supremacist
0:34:23 obnoxious uber mentioned who's the head
0:34:27 of state there
0:34:28 so biden's heart is not into it
0:34:33 his hope for a legacy
0:34:37 is not into it he doesn't want to be
0:34:40 distracted and diverted
0:34:43 from his aspiration to be a
0:34:47 transformative
0:34:49 president by this obnoxious
0:34:52 racist supremacist state
0:34:56 so i don't think his heart is even into
0:34:58 it
0:34:59 he does what he has to do it's
0:35:02 default default uh
0:35:06 in this is we support israel
0:35:09 but behind the scenes i kind of think
0:35:11 it's probably not true
0:35:15 just just very quickly dr norman if if
0:35:17 we could link all this
0:35:18 to what's happening in sheikh jarrah
0:35:21 because that's where
0:35:22 all of this conflict is sourced uh and
0:35:25 we know we know this
0:35:26 this started with uh a litigation
0:35:29 about about you know property ownership
0:35:31 and whatnot
0:35:33 and there's a historical background to
0:35:34 it and it's complex as well but it very
0:35:36 briefly you could tell us
0:35:39 how you see the situation as it relates
0:35:43 it's not it's not complex i'm not going
0:35:46 to get into the legal technicalities
0:35:48 because i don't know them i don't really
0:35:50 need to know them
0:35:51 frankly um first of all
0:35:55 before we continue we have to do a time
0:35:57 check what time is it
0:35:59 uh by your time it's 107
0:36:03 p.m i can only go on for five more
0:36:05 minutes because i have to do
0:36:07 another interview this will be the last
0:36:09 question then i guess
0:36:10 yeah yeah yeah so
0:36:13 i hate saying things like that i'm gonna
0:36:15 do another interview like i'm michael
0:36:17 jackson
0:36:18Laughter 0:36:21 we respect the fact that you have many
0:36:23 things going on these days of course guy
0:36:25 would want to be michael jackson dead or
0:36:27 alive
0:36:28 but um
0:36:31 let's let's just we'll end on this note
0:36:36 what's happening to shay and what
0:36:37 happened in shakeshara
0:36:39 don't need the legal technicalities
0:36:44 it's just the same thing
0:36:48 that happens literally literally
0:36:51 no poetry no hyperbole no exaggeration
0:36:55 it happens every minute of every day in
0:36:58 that area
0:37:00 israel had two goals on its creation
0:37:05 two objectives at its creation in
0:37:09 1948 even before 48 but will
0:37:12 start from the creation of the state and
0:37:15 you
0:37:15 you find this in the human rights watch
0:37:17 report the
0:37:19 threshold cross it starts in 1948
0:37:23 47-48 it says
0:37:26 israel wants to create a state with a
0:37:28 jewish majority
0:37:31 and the way it creates a state with the
0:37:33 jewish majority is
0:37:34 as follows number one
0:37:37 it forcibly evicts a large portion of
0:37:41 the population
0:37:43 it forcibly evicts them and they became
0:37:46 the palestinian refugees
0:37:48 that was the first step in creating the
0:37:50 jewish majority
0:37:53 and then
0:37:56 they engage in this massive
0:38:00 land confiscation which they saw
0:38:04 as part of a critical part not just a
0:38:08 part
0:38:09 a critical part of creating
0:38:12 a jewish state so for them
0:38:15 a jewish state meant an overwhelming
0:38:19 jewish majority demographically
0:38:22 and control over all the land
0:38:26 in their state and so
0:38:29 they begin by passing laws
0:38:33 which dispossess
0:38:36 all those palestinians who were forced
0:38:39 into exile
0:38:41 dispossessed them of their land
0:38:44 and then step two
0:38:48 was dispossessing the palestinians who
0:38:52 remained
0:38:54 of their land so
0:38:57 what we now call the palestinian
0:38:59 israelis
0:39:01 they were dispossessed of about two
0:39:04 million
0:39:04 dunhams of land the estimate is between
0:39:08 uh 40 and 60 of the land of the
0:39:12 palestinians who remained
0:39:14 in israel was stolen i don't know why
0:39:17 i'm using the word dispossessed
0:39:19 why do i need a polysyllabic word and i
0:39:21 can just use
0:39:22 a two-syllable word stolen or use a
0:39:26 one-syllable word or robbed
0:39:28 by the israeli state and this process
0:39:31 of dispossession it never stopped
0:39:36 it didn't stop for a day really
0:39:39 literally
0:39:40 they're constantly coming up with new
0:39:42 plans and new plans
0:39:44 to confine the palestinians in a smaller
0:39:46 and smaller and smaller
0:39:48 area i'm talking about inside israel
0:39:50 itself
0:39:51 in a smaller and smaller area so
0:39:54 palestinians now comprise
0:39:56 19 of the israeli population
0:39:59 and they're confined overwhelmingly
0:40:03 to 3 of the land of israel i'm talking
0:40:06 about the state of israel i'm not
0:40:07 talking about occupied palestinian
0:40:09 territory
0:40:10 about three percent of the land
0:40:13 and uh
0:40:17 then when they acquired
0:40:20 in the june 1967 war the west bank
0:40:24 gaza and east jerusalem they began the
0:40:28 same process
0:40:30 they won as they put it the famous line
0:40:33 the levy eshkol who was the prime
0:40:35 minister
0:40:36 at the time in 67 he said we want the
0:40:40 dollar
0:40:40 we don't want the bride we want the land
0:40:43 we don't want the people
0:40:46 and so the same process begins
0:40:50 of dispossessing them of their land
0:40:53 in the case of the west bank
0:40:56 the state of israel has taken control
0:40:59 now of
0:41:00 30 of the land one-third is israeli
0:41:04 and it's used only for jews it's only
0:41:06 for jews
0:41:09 and in jerusalem
0:41:12 jerusalem is a kind of microcosm
0:41:15 of the whole picture because in east
0:41:18 jerusalem they
0:41:20 have a special commitment
0:41:23 to maintaining the jewish majority
0:41:27 and part of maintaining the jewish
0:41:30 majority
0:41:31 is confining palestinians to less
0:41:34 and less land in jerusalem
0:41:38 and giving over more and more
0:41:41 to jewish settlers to create
0:41:44 maintain preserve and enhance
0:41:49 that jewish majority and so
0:41:52 shakeshara it was a kind of a fluke
0:41:57 it was a complete fluke because they do
0:41:59 that every day
0:42:00 you read the reports you listen to the
0:42:02 news they've been doing that to the
0:42:04 bedouins the negative
0:42:06 for the past few years and every day you
0:42:08 hear a new horror story in a negative
0:42:11 of what they're doing with the bedouins
0:42:13 there trying to confine them in a
0:42:15 smaller and smaller piece of land
0:42:17 so it can be given over to jews in their
0:42:20 jewish
0:42:21 state what happened in
0:42:24 shergiro was a kind of fluke
0:42:27 number one it was
0:42:30 mostly middle-class families who had
0:42:33 good connections
0:42:35 number two because of the good
0:42:37 connections and the
0:42:38 good organizing there was large number
0:42:40 of demonstrations
0:42:42 number three the israeli jewish
0:42:46 supremacists of course came in
0:42:47 and tried to break up the demonstrations
0:42:50 in support of sheikh yara
0:42:52 then that's routine that's par for the
0:42:55 course nobody blinks tonight
0:42:58 and then it spilled over to al-aqsa musk
0:43:03 and there was some solidarity expressed
0:43:06 by the worshippers
0:43:08 in al-aqsa mosque then they came under
0:43:11 assault
0:43:12 then it happened to have been on ramadan
0:43:17 then the attacks happened to have
0:43:19 occurred in the holiest day of ramadan
0:43:21 so it was this whole concatenation which
0:43:24 was
0:43:25 totally unpredictable as politics 99 out
0:43:28 of 100 times
0:43:29 is but it began with
0:43:32 the most routine commonplace
0:43:36 event that's literally
0:43:39 every single day literally
0:43:43 every single day for the past 73 years
0:43:47 since
0:43:47 israel was founded this juggernaut
0:43:52 this more that
0:43:56 gobbles up consumes the palestinian land
0:44:00 this protracted protracted
0:44:05 land robbery perfectly honest for you
0:44:10 it's the first uh 150 years of america
0:44:16 that's what our country was like if you
0:44:19 read the story
0:44:20 just to give you an example you read the
0:44:22 story of the cherokee indians
0:44:24 the cherokees start out is on the east
0:44:27 coast
0:44:28 they're dispossessed they move to north
0:44:31 carolina and
0:44:32 alabama they sign all these treaties you
0:44:35 can keep this land we'll give you this
0:44:37 land
0:44:38 they signed the treaties of course the
0:44:40 united states breaks
0:44:41 all the treaties before you know it
0:44:44 there's
0:44:44 what's called the um oh gosh how can i
0:44:48 forget it's the famous
0:44:49 cherokee something like march of death
0:44:52 but i can't remember it now
0:44:53 oh god this is horrible um and then
0:44:56 they're moved
0:44:57 to uh
0:45:01 uh uh not
0:45:05 okay we go from alabama north carolina i
0:45:08 forgot where now
0:45:08 but they ended up in the state of
0:45:10 oklahoma
0:45:12 when the pot when the ratio of whites
0:45:15 to indians in oklahoma was ten to one
0:45:18 a nice safe ratio you know what the
0:45:20 israelis called the jewish majority
0:45:23 um then they turned oklahoma into a
0:45:26 state they caught
0:45:27 they carved it out as a state it's
0:45:29 basically the history of the americans
0:45:32 it's the history of a lot of states
0:45:34 unfortunately
0:45:36 so it's the same process the attempt
0:45:40 to extinguish
0:45:43 i don't want to say i'll just say
0:45:46 extinguish the palestinians as a people
0:45:50 uh and this is just as i said one
0:45:53 uh oh now it came back to me thank you
0:45:56 memory
0:45:57 uh it's called the trail of the trail of
0:45:59 tears
0:46:01 um but now i can't remember what state
0:46:04 oklahoma was carved out from it'll come
0:46:06 to me in 10 years
0:46:08 um so uh
0:46:11 yeah it's the same process and so for
0:46:14 those
0:46:14 who have this historical memory
0:46:18 and are you know moved by what was done
0:46:21 to the native americans it's now
0:46:23 happening to the palestinian
0:46:24 well it's been happening for 73 years
0:46:27 it's been happening
0:46:29 it was just a fluke i mean the israelis
0:46:31 are so stupid
0:46:33 these uber men should these geniuses
0:46:35 remember the israelis immediately as
0:46:37 culverts
0:46:38 began they said we have we have the cure
0:46:42 we don't have the cure you know
0:46:46 but they immediately the geniuses we
0:46:49 have the cure
0:46:52 they need a cure for mental illness
0:46:55 that's what our country
0:46:56 needs a cure for mental illness
0:46:59 so um
0:47:02 it's the the same process
0:47:07 i was about to say to attack the
0:47:09 palestinians
0:47:11 in al-aqsa mosque on the holiest day of
0:47:14 ramadan
0:47:17 that's not brilliant but they're so
0:47:20 arrogant they are so arrogant
0:47:24 these people so obnoxious
0:47:28 the other day two days ago this guy
0:47:31 __ ben quinn i don't know he was a
0:47:33 correspondent of mine
0:47:35 he's probably around 21 22 i don't know
0:47:37 how old he is
0:47:40 and i correspond with everybody i don't
0:47:42 discriminate
0:47:44 you don't like me fine just be
0:47:46 respectful
0:47:48 and he writes me this email talking down
0:47:51 to me
0:47:54 carrying on like he's superior to me
0:47:58 i just said you know what
0:48:01 i said you nazi jewish supremacist
0:48:05 sacrifice don't talk to me that way
0:48:08 don't talk to me that way i said you get
0:48:11 it you stupid
0:48:13 i'm sick of these people the arrogance
0:48:17 the arrogance of these people nauseate
0:48:21 me
0:48:22 they think they can go into a mosque
0:48:26 on the highest holy day
0:48:30 not just a mosque al-aqsa mosque
0:48:33 on the highest holy day of their
0:48:35 religious holiday
0:48:38 and they can carry on as they please and
0:48:42 there'll be no reaction
0:48:43 and then they're shocked they're shocked
0:48:45 hamas oh they're so shocked
0:48:48 hamas if you read these israeli analysts
0:48:50 they were probably calculating this
0:48:52 calculating that calculating that
0:48:54 calculating that
0:48:57 maybe they were just really sickened by
0:49:00 what was happening
0:49:02 now i'm not going to deny hamas
0:49:04 calculates i'm not going to deny that
0:49:06 they're a political party to calculate
0:49:10 but maybe they were touched by the fact
0:49:13 that
0:49:14 the palestinians were being evicted
0:49:18 from east jerusalem their homes and
0:49:22 70 of gaza's population they are
0:49:26 refugees who were evicted
0:49:29 from their homes so maybe there was some
0:49:31 resonance there
0:49:33 and we all agree
0:49:36 the hamas leadership is very religious
0:49:40 so maybe they were genuinely
0:49:44 indignant and that's a very euphemistic
0:49:47 word
0:49:48 at the attacks on worshippers in al-aqsa
0:49:51 mosque
0:49:53 in jerusalem which happens to be the
0:49:55 palestinian capital
0:49:56 according to international law on the
0:49:59 highest holy day of ramadan
0:50:02 they can't even comprehend these
0:50:04 israelis because they think the arabs
0:50:06 are sub-human
0:50:08 they do utter mention intervention
0:50:12 sub humans yeah uh dr norman i i hate i
0:50:16 just don't want you to miss your
0:50:17 interview
0:50:18 so so i just want to remind you with the
0:50:20 time we could have you on for hours
0:50:21 really we could listen to you
0:50:23 nonstop and the questions
0:50:26 because eventually i'll forget my name
0:50:28 that's where my memories go
0:50:30 it's really been great listening to you
0:50:32 and learning from you and
0:50:34 uh we hope we can have you on again and
0:50:36 we can talk to you again in the future
0:50:39 and yeah we wish you all the best with
0:50:41 your interviews and
0:50:42 all the best in general and hope to
0:50:44 speak to you again soon
0:50:45 thank you
0:50:58 you