Pinecreek's Argument from Ickiness | Podcast Highlight (2021-08-29) #

0:00:08 welcome
0:00:09 hey thanks for having me on
0:00:12 um
0:00:13 and good to
0:00:14 see you staff is that how you see your
0:00:16 name yeah yeah it is it is okay well i'm
0:00:18 an atheist and um the way i usually talk
0:00:21 about the problem of evil is from the
0:00:22 perspective of god before creation
0:00:26 and then i think what you said earlier
0:00:28 was very good about not making any
0:00:29 assumptions so i'll just ask you um
0:00:33 do you believe that ala
0:00:36 sees the future it's never surprised
0:00:38 knows what's going to happen
0:00:42 yes
0:00:43 yes yeah and you you believe it's
0:00:45 perfect you can't get better than all uh
0:00:47 for sure
0:00:48 okay
0:00:49 and so
0:00:51 um
0:00:52 if we have i like the two worlds
0:00:55 uh hypothetical experiments so let's say
0:00:57 you have two two worlds one world is
0:00:59 just allah yeah
0:01:01 another world is allah plus extra stuff
0:01:04 like the universe yeah
0:01:07 uh the first world has no sin correct
0:01:12 has no pain
0:01:13 has no suffering
0:01:15 the second world has all in it but has
0:01:18 all that other stuff
0:01:20 which world is better in your opinion
0:01:22 the first world or the second world
0:01:26 well i can't make that judgment
0:01:28 um because
0:01:30 it's your opinion
0:01:32 yeah
0:01:32 but how
0:01:34 how could you compare a world let's say
0:01:37 if god inhabits a world a possible world
0:01:40 in which there is only god
0:01:42 um and
0:01:44 and i prefer let's say that word over a
0:01:46 world in which there is god in which and
0:01:48 there are creatures of god plus one
0:01:50 allah plus one in which he can then
0:01:53 manifest or exhibit or exemplify his
0:01:56 beautiful names and attributes
0:01:58 um
0:01:59 it's difficult for the mind to make
0:02:01 these judgments uh just like how how can
0:02:05 i prefer a world in which there are no
0:02:07 moral creatures
0:02:08 because there are no moral properties of
0:02:10 moral freedom to a world in which
0:02:12 you know there aren't such
0:02:14 such creatures on what basis am i
0:02:17 judging can you see i can have a i can
0:02:19 just have a an inclination or a
0:02:21 preference but that's all it could be
0:02:23 right yeah well i guess
0:02:25 the question gets more at
0:02:27 if by definition all is perfect and you
0:02:29 can't get better yeah
0:02:32 then anything you add to it's not going
0:02:33 to make it better
0:02:35 yeah for sure i think adding something
0:02:37 to
0:02:38 i don't think creation
0:02:40 adds to the
0:02:42 somehow god lacked perfection then he
0:02:44 created
0:02:45 creation then he became a little bit
0:02:47 more perfect yeah you don't believe that
0:02:48 right yeah for sure i mean but now why
0:02:51 the divine would create
0:02:54 creatures in such a loving way
0:02:56 um we were just talking about one of the
0:02:58 names of god being
0:03:00 the the love the one who loves without
0:03:02 any um need for a person to have that
0:03:05 love
0:03:06 um so
0:03:07 why he did that
0:03:10 now these are going into the realms of
0:03:11 divine motives can you see and uh
0:03:13 i will start to struggle unless he
0:03:16 discloses his reasons why is there
0:03:18 anything that you think that allah
0:03:20 doesn't want
0:03:22 no he didn't say in scripture that he
0:03:24 doesn't want it's just if someone were
0:03:26 to ask me on what what grounds
0:03:29 are you making to say one world is
0:03:32 better than another world i'm just going
0:03:33 to struggle i can give some
0:03:36 you know sort of generic reasons why i
0:03:38 might prefer one based on scripture or
0:03:40 something like that but can you think of
0:03:42 something that allah would say no i
0:03:43 don't want this
0:03:45 yeah he doesn't like for example the
0:03:47 things that lots of things that he
0:03:48 doesn't love he tells us
0:03:50 he doesn't love that people
0:03:52 um are you know
0:03:53 are deceived and they run away from him
0:03:55 okay so let's say let's call that
0:03:57 disbelief yeah disbelief let's call that
0:04:00 disbelief yeah yeah so they're in the
0:04:02 first world there's no disbelief this is
0:04:04 just allah yeah in the second world
0:04:06 there's allah plus people who do believe
0:04:09 and disbelief sure so now we have two
0:04:11 worlds
0:04:12 and one world that
0:04:14 entails something that allah doesn't
0:04:16 want disbelief for sure
0:04:19 so wouldn't you say the first world's
0:04:20 better because it first of all doesn't
0:04:21 have any disbelief in it not necessarily
0:04:24 again you need a value criterion you see
0:04:26 when you're judging between worlds
0:04:27 because the by having people who
0:04:29 disbelieve there's also the possibility
0:04:31 that people will lovingly turn to god
0:04:33 because you need moral freedom in order
0:04:35 to believe and disbelieve in god so we
0:04:38 have belief and disbelief but in the
0:04:40 first world there's just allah you can't
0:04:42 get better than that
0:04:44 so i mean well
0:04:45 i understand your answer is basically
0:04:48 you don't want to judge between the two
0:04:49 worlds do you believe allah was free not
0:04:52 to create the second world
0:04:54 for sure he's not about yeah my my what
0:04:56 i understand is that the divine
0:04:59 if he creates a world
0:05:01 then he creates it out of a choice not
0:05:03 out of a necessity so i believe in a
0:05:05 choice model of divine action i don't
0:05:07 believe in the necessitarium
0:05:09 okay so other chosen not to create
0:05:12 anything he could have chosen not to
0:05:14 because he's not bound by any
0:05:17 uh higher principle
0:05:19 or
0:05:21 any in any higher axiom by which he must
0:05:24 create a world he creates it out of
0:05:26 choice now why he created the world i
0:05:28 now allah plus the world or plus
0:05:31 creation why he created other everything
0:05:33 other than himself and whether that
0:05:35 world is better
0:05:37 it's hard hard to to judge but the fact
0:05:40 that he created it and i know he's given
0:05:42 he's blessed me with being and existence
0:05:44 so from my you know from my own
0:05:46 predilection i think it's a good word
0:05:49 there would be no disbelief of all i
0:05:51 never created correct
0:05:53 there'll be no disbelief for sure
0:05:54 there'll also be no belief
0:05:56 for sure right so okay so i agree with
0:05:58 uh it makes well it seems logical sense
0:06:01 if there was if allah is free will not
0:06:04 create zero disbelief i'm saying that if
0:06:06 someone were to say um a world
0:06:09 um in which there are creatures who
0:06:11 disbelieve which would also entail that
0:06:13 they believe as well
0:06:14 maybe that possibility of belief whether
0:06:17 or someone lovingly turns to allah that
0:06:19 might be the good the disguise good that
0:06:22 that becomes a god justifying reason why
0:06:24 allah created the world that could be
0:06:26 the good
0:06:27 um for all i know for all i know
0:06:29 um
0:06:31 but what we do get if i want to get a
0:06:33 bit mystical
0:06:35 um in the mystical
0:06:37 tradition
0:06:38 um you do get some scholars who say
0:06:41 no but this is their own deliberations
0:06:43 you know there's nothing there's no
0:06:44 theological
0:06:45 um
0:06:47 there's no normativity here but this is
0:06:50 but this is the the tension i think um
0:06:54 christians jews all have to well maybe
0:06:56 not jews have to deal with is that
0:06:59 allah tell me if you disagree with
0:07:01 anything i'm about to say
0:07:02 allah is not okay with this belief or
0:07:04 sin
0:07:05 it's not okay with it he doesn't like it
0:07:08 he created knowing what that that would
0:07:10 result for sure
0:07:12 and he said i'm going to create it
0:07:13 anyhow that's right that's basically the
0:07:16 problem of evil right there
0:07:18 that's right and the angels the angels
0:07:19 in the quranic tradition the angels
0:07:22 asked that very same question in in
0:07:24Music 0:07:25 when
0:07:26 according to our you know
0:07:28 belief adam was created
0:07:30 and then the angels asked god why are
0:07:32 you creating a being that is going to be
0:07:35 a representative that's not only going
0:07:36 to create mischief on the earth he's
0:07:38 going to create their progeny his
0:07:39 progeny is going to create bloodshed on
0:07:41 the earth
0:07:42 and then god's response was look
0:07:44 i know what you do not know so you are
0:07:46 finite creatures i know and and i am i
0:07:49 am your lord i know better
0:07:52 that there may be greater goods that
0:07:54 unfold that's one possible reason for
0:07:56 why creating human beings on earth
0:07:59 but you still have the problem of hell
0:08:01 i won't make any assumptions but do you
0:08:02 believe that some people tonight can i
0:08:04 ask you a question pine creek because i
0:08:06 think uh dr saf
0:08:09 the answer he wants from you is i would
0:08:11 choose world a over world b
0:08:14 so why don't you as a theist believe
0:08:16 that god should choose world a over
0:08:18 world b is is that's what you're getting
0:08:20 at right pine creek i mean but you need
0:08:21 a value criteria
0:08:23 yeah precisely to judge between one
0:08:25 possible
0:08:26 possible world with another possible
0:08:28 world why why must we assume that a
0:08:31 world
0:08:32 that god creating let's say automaton
0:08:35 or a world with you know just only
0:08:38 people just do good why is that a world
0:08:40 that is better than a world in which we
0:08:42 inhabit now
0:08:43 because of what you said
0:08:45 would you prefer one over the other this
0:08:47 is like an internal critique so the
0:08:48 criterion we prefer is what does allah
0:08:50 desire
0:08:52 that's the criterion allah is the
0:08:54 criterion and our response will be that
0:08:56 he that what he desires may be secured
0:08:58 by creating the kind of world that he's
0:08:59 created like this
0:09:00 but what he doesn't desire is disbelief
0:09:02 yes
0:09:03 for sure but he knows but it would be no
0:09:06 disbelief if he never created so there's
0:09:08 the tension that's not attention because
0:09:11 that because what you could say is the
0:09:13 the purpose is that god seeks by
0:09:15 creating the world with the possibility
0:09:17 the possibility not the necessity but
0:09:19 the possibility of disbelief being in
0:09:21 there god creating a world in which
0:09:24 there is a possibility of disbelief
0:09:26 because there is a possibility of belief
0:09:29 maybe
0:09:30 over the span of whatever human history
0:09:32 however or whatever span of time you
0:09:34 want to take secures the goods that he
0:09:36 wants to seek based on his wise purposes
0:09:38 right but some of those some of those
0:09:40 goods that he secures to seek is knowing
0:09:42 with a hundred percent certainty which i
0:09:44 think you believe that some will
0:09:46 disbelieve and some people
0:09:48 will willfully antagonistically reject
0:09:52 god doesn't matter what circumstance
0:09:54 they will be put in yeah right and so
0:09:56 there would be no pain no evil no
0:09:58 suffering and more most importantly
0:10:00 there'd be nobody in hell
0:10:02 today or in the future there'd be nobody
0:10:05 in hell if allah never created correct
0:10:07 if you never created hell yeah there
0:10:09 would be nobody no if you never created
0:10:10 anything
0:10:11 there'd be no anything yeah there'd be
0:10:13 no heaven in hell yet so every person
0:10:15 who who ends up in hell
0:10:18 has ended up there because allah chose
0:10:20 that of his people to create
0:10:22 if he chose people to create he chose to
0:10:24 create people people choose whether they
0:10:27 want to be with god or be distant from
0:10:29 god right but
0:10:30 if i never created them knowing what
0:10:32 they would choose and that they would
0:10:34 end up there they would not be there so
0:10:36 just like with companies the ceo the the
0:10:39 buck stops at the top
0:10:41 that's partially responsible for him but
0:10:43 is that would you agree that
0:10:48 your influence can only go so far all
0:10:50 you can say is
0:10:51 um
0:10:53 if god didn't create anything
0:10:56 then nobody would have went to hell
0:10:57 that's true because there would be no
0:10:58 heaven no hell no nothing that's true
0:11:00 that's
0:11:01 all the inference that you can make
0:11:03 there are no further influences that you
0:11:04 can make about that's the important one
0:11:07 no but that's pine creek can i answer
0:11:08 your question yeah that doesn't do
0:11:10 anything for anyone's view you're just
0:11:12 saying that if god didn't create
0:11:14 anything then it follows that some
0:11:16 people would not have been held if god
0:11:17 created hell that just follows
0:11:19 the fact of god created hell
0:11:21 but but there are no more there are no
0:11:23 more moral claims or further claims that
0:11:25 you can infer from just that statement
0:11:26 well you know we can because if morality
0:11:29 is defined by the nature of allah and
0:11:31 allah doesn't like
0:11:33 disbelief yet he created knowing
0:11:35 disbelieving the results sorry pancreas
0:11:39 i think yeah yeah so you literally do
0:11:42 you think let me ask you a question
0:11:43 sorry do you think uh allah likes sinful
0:11:47 people
0:11:50 no
0:11:50 do you think that allah therefore would
0:11:53 want to create a world where there is no
0:11:54 sinful people
0:11:56 yeah correct
0:11:58 that would be wrong from an islamic
0:12:00 paradigm
0:12:01 because islamic because from the islamic
0:12:03 paradigm we believe that god wanted
0:12:06 people to commit sin so god would
0:12:07 forgive them
0:12:10 about did god want to create people so
0:12:11 they end up in hell would you agree with
0:12:13 that
0:12:14 no no but you understand that particular
0:12:16 point
0:12:17 you're saying god created people because
0:12:18 he wanted it to stand so he could
0:12:20 forgive them right so so your point this
0:12:23 is what i understand from your argument
0:12:25 because let's narrow it down your point
0:12:27 was this was that god desires nobody to
0:12:30 commit sin let's say as an example
0:12:33 therefore god has the power to do that
0:12:36 therefore god would only seek to
0:12:38 establish a world that doesn't have
0:12:40 people committing sin that was your line
0:12:42 of argument now i gave a possible
0:12:44 argument or possible explanation in fact
0:12:46 it's the islamic explanation which is
0:12:48 that god does want to create people who
0:12:51 commit sin so that he can forgive them
0:12:53 so although god dislikes sinners
0:12:56 he allows sinners to exist in order for
0:12:59 for for god to forgive them i get that
0:13:01 yeah here's but then you gotta take one
0:13:03 step further
0:13:05 does god want people to create people
0:13:07 knowing with understand certainty that
0:13:09 some will die without asking for
0:13:12 forgiveness from allah and end up in
0:13:14 hell but you understand the point the
0:13:16 wider point this is the wider point now
0:13:23 you're saying that god created people
0:13:24 because it gave them an opportunity to
0:13:28 ask for forgiveness of him no that's not
0:13:29 the wider point
0:13:32 the wider point isn't that that's the
0:13:34 wider point
0:13:35 the wider point is that some we have
0:13:37 limitations in terms of understanding
0:13:40 the reasons why god would create certain
0:13:43 things and therefore to try to determine
0:13:46 that therefore there is a logical
0:13:48 contradiction which is what you're
0:13:49 trying to argue no no no i'm not seeing
0:13:50 a logical contribution
0:13:52 well
0:13:53 what are you arguing for then because i
0:13:55 think the problem is and this is what dr
0:13:57 saf was pointing out that based on what
0:14:00 he answered and your claims
0:14:03 it doesn't necessarily entail what you
0:14:06 think it does you're making an
0:14:08 additional inference that you cannot get
0:14:10 from the information what's the
0:14:11 inference i'm making
0:14:13 well you tell us because you just said
0:14:14 it wasn't the logical con uh controversy
0:14:16 no my whole point is my whole point is
0:14:19 to help the muslim feel icky about it
0:14:22 um it's just no seriously that's it
0:14:25 because and i think it's a very powerful
0:14:27 argument which i think even theists will
0:14:29 admit to there's no problem of evil for
0:14:31 the atheists it's for the theist
0:14:33 so
0:14:34 it's oh no i think no that's wrong
0:14:37 okay
0:14:38 from the record because i don't want to
0:14:40 do it can you make can you make the
0:14:42 argument sorry i don't mean to give you
0:14:43 so can you just make the argument right
0:14:45 now in premise premise conclusion form
0:14:47 well
0:14:48 i'll try um supremacist one would be god
0:14:51 doesn't like sin he doesn't like
0:14:53 disbelief
0:14:54 premise two would be something like god
0:14:56 knows the future with certainty he's
0:14:58 never surprised i think both of these
0:15:00 things both these both these premises
0:15:02 you guys agree with
0:15:04 this three um
0:15:06 it would be that he knows with certainty
0:15:08 some will disbelieve in hell
0:15:12 uh conclusion
0:15:15 allah was okay with some people just
0:15:16 believing in going to hell
0:15:19 so so so that's why
0:15:22 that conclusion that allah was okay with
0:15:25 people this disbelieving and going to
0:15:27 hell right uh are you saying that that
0:15:30 contradicts
0:15:32 all i'm saying is god
0:15:34 did this like it's not okay so you're
0:15:37 arguing from emotion here because it's
0:15:39 not definitely you feel lucky okay
0:15:42 so here here here's the issue here's the
0:15:44 issue pine creek oh he just said he's
0:15:45 already
0:15:46 what you want what you want to say what
0:15:48 you want to say what you want to say is
0:15:51 that
0:15:52 you know this world that god actualized
0:15:55 is not ideal in the sense that there is
0:15:58 evil in it and people will be tortured
0:16:00 in hell for an eternity
0:16:02 therefore yes yes therefore it is it is
0:16:05 something that is not uh you know the
0:16:08 best of all possible world or it's not
0:16:10 something that's morally good or
0:16:12 justified right but uh let me ask you a
0:16:16 question are what are your views on
0:16:18 morality what's what's your underlying
0:16:20 ethical theory that i want you to assume
0:16:22 that i have none
0:16:24 how can i then how can i understand what
0:16:26 you mean by good and evil i'm using your
0:16:28 definitions
0:16:29 what is my definition of good and evil
0:16:31 anything that goes uh
0:16:33 in line with allah's will his nature is
0:16:36 good anything that doesn't evil
0:16:38 then okay okay fine fine wrong so let's
0:16:40 let's go with that let's go with that am
0:16:42 i wrong
0:16:43 let's assume it's my definition let's
0:16:45 assume it's my definition then how does
0:16:47 me feeling feeling icky about anything
0:16:50 affect reality in any way shape or form
0:16:53 if you're granting if you're granting
0:16:57 foreign if you're if you're granting for
0:17:00 the sake of the argument that good and
0:17:02 evil are defined by what god does then
0:17:05 why does me feeling icky about anything
0:17:09 have any significance at all here
0:17:11 because you're granting that what he
0:17:12 does is good by definition let's call it
0:17:15 a day and go home but wait but wait but
0:17:17 wait you guys feel icky so what so what
0:17:19 what's wrong with feeling well you know
0:17:20 what what is feeling icky i was wrong
0:17:22 about you i do you don't feel lucky
0:17:24 about it right
0:17:26 let's assume i do let's assume i do what
0:17:28 does it prove what it what what argument
0:17:30 are you trying to make it you're
0:17:32 granting you yourself are granting for
0:17:34 the sake of the argument that good and
0:17:36 evil are defined by god's acts right so
0:17:40 whatever it's a divine command theory
0:17:41 basically right now if that is the case
0:17:44 and you're already granting that in your
0:17:46 argument yeah then you say that
0:17:49 me feeling icky should have any role to
0:17:51 play in determining what is good or evil
0:17:54 then you're contradicting yourself no no
0:17:56 i'm not saying what the term is good or
0:17:57 evil i'm saying about what you do with
0:17:59 your life in terms of worship
0:18:01 uh how you practically outlive the
0:18:04 consequences of this belief that's what
0:18:06 i'm talking about fine i can feel licky
0:18:08 all day right but that that doesn't
0:18:10 constitute an argument so do you have a
0:18:12 better argument to make then you know
0:18:14 guys you should feel icky about this
0:18:16 because us feeling icky about it doesn't
0:18:18 prove anything unless you're gonna say
0:18:20 that our subjective feeling about what
0:18:22 is good and evil actually reflects the
0:18:25 actual reality of what is objectively
0:18:27 good and evil
0:18:29 okay i do what if god decreed before the
0:18:32 beginning of
0:18:33 creation
0:18:34 that
0:18:35 uh your children all of them will end up
0:18:38 in hell
0:18:39 let me ask you a question
0:18:42 would you have rather god created
0:18:43 nothing
0:18:45 um i i don't know if i would rather god
0:18:47 created nothing i would have liked it
0:18:48 let's let's let's let's make that more
0:18:50 modest why wouldn't you
0:18:52 i wouldn't have liked it but then here's
0:18:54 the fundamental question based on your
0:18:57 definition of good and evil that you're
0:18:59 using for the sake of this argument my
0:19:01 not liking it is irrelevant okay that's
0:19:04 the point what would you want to focus
0:19:05 on i understand i understand yeah yeah
0:19:08 yeah yeah but my question to you is
0:19:10 would you worship allah if he told you
0:19:13 that
0:19:13 that all your children
0:19:16 i he created for destruction to go to
0:19:19 hell
0:19:22 again again accepting your accepting
0:19:24 your definition for granted accepted
0:19:26 your definition that you're using in the
0:19:27 argument because i'm dealing with your
0:19:28 ideas yes i would because we would like
0:19:31 to be a people that follows reason and
0:19:33 evidence so objectively speaking if that
0:19:36 is what's good and if that is how good
0:19:38 an evil is defined nobody still is the
0:19:40 source of objective good so i will still
0:19:42 want to worship that god why you still
0:19:44 have the option because we don't need to
0:19:46 have an emotional argument or appeal to
0:19:49 emotion the fact is is that you've
0:19:51 already admitted that your whole
0:19:53 argument is based on emotions rather
0:19:56 than a strict logical argument so it's
0:19:59 powerful because of emotion but the the
0:20:01 point of everything i've been saying i
0:20:03 think you guys agree with
0:20:05 and the thing no i don't i don't agree
0:20:06 what part have you disagreed with
0:20:10 your inference that you're going to that
0:20:12 we should say oh no the god the the
0:20:14 world in which god existed alone by
0:20:16 himself is better no we're rejected i
0:20:18 asked the question
0:20:20 nobody nobody agreed to that
0:20:22 but you both agreed yeah but here's the
0:20:23 question you were asking
0:20:25 absolutely
0:20:26 listen listen you got to focus on this
0:20:28 point you're coming on here and you're
0:20:30 not giving a logical argument you're
0:20:33 admitting that you're given an argument
0:20:34 that is purely based on emotions
0:20:37 i'm giving an argument to show that
0:20:40 allah created something that he doesn't
0:20:41 want are we agreed
0:20:43 no no no we don't agree no that's what
0:20:46 he's done okay okay we're assuming
0:20:48 does gala want disbelief
0:20:51 see we've already been down this line of
0:20:53 questions does gollum want this does all
0:20:55 of them we've already answered that he
0:20:56 said you said no
0:20:58 so there's afraid
0:21:04 one of the brothers mentioned in in the
0:21:06 chat uh blazing hearts
0:21:08 uh so erada kauniya which is god's uh
0:21:11 you know cosmic decree
0:21:14 is what he wants the world to be like
0:21:17 god's ira
0:21:18 or his
0:21:20 or a legislative decree is what he
0:21:23 dislikes in terms of legislation moral
0:21:25 right immoral wrong you're equivocating
0:21:27 between the two when you say god doesn't
0:21:30 will for good
0:21:32 for for evil but then he wills to create
0:21:34 evil there's an equivocation on these
0:21:36 two wills right so he dislikes the evil
0:21:40 in a legislative
0:21:42 sense but he wills for a world
0:21:46 that contains evil to exist so there's
0:21:48 an equivocation you're making i don't
0:21:50 quite understand that because if allah
0:21:51 didn't want disbelief all he had to do
0:21:53 is not create yes i think we all agreed
0:21:55 upon on that we don't so what do you
0:21:57 mean by want here so we what we say is
0:21:59 that he wanted a world with disbelief
0:22:02 that doesn't mean that he likes
0:22:04 disbelief
0:22:05 okay that's fine so you're saying he
0:22:08 wanted people to disbelieve in him
0:22:10 to create a world where some would god
0:22:12 god will to create a world where people
0:22:15 would freely disbelieve in him although
0:22:19 he doesn't
0:22:20 morally approve of that disbelief
0:22:22 there's nothing incoherent okay
0:22:24 and but do you believe allah knew that
0:22:26 if he didn't create then all that would
0:22:28 have been solved
0:22:30 there's no problem to solve god will
0:22:32 that work to exist no no there is a
0:22:33 problem disbelieving no no no no
0:22:35 focus on this focus
0:22:42 is disbelief a problem for allah no no
0:22:45 that's the whole point
0:22:46 of an inference i'm asking i'm asking is
0:22:49 sin a problem for allah
0:22:51 no
0:22:52 is people going to hell for eternity a
0:22:54 problem for allah no no
0:22:56 okay so allah would you say i don't know
0:22:59 a better word to use but is allah okay
0:23:01 with sin disbelief and people going to
0:23:03 hell
0:23:04 you're equivocating now so he's okay
0:23:06 with it in the sense that he willed for
0:23:08 a world to exist that contains these
0:23:11 things but he does not he doesn't he he
0:23:14 says or he he decrees that these things
0:23:17 are morally wrong right so that's not
0:23:20 that's not the same thing as him not
0:23:22 willing for them to exist would you just
0:23:23 say he decrees that they're morally
0:23:25 wrong what did i miss that yeah
0:23:28 legislates he legislates that they're
0:23:30 morally wrong
0:23:32 so he
0:23:32 created something
0:23:34 and legislated it as morally wrong
0:23:37 no no
0:23:38 you're going to have to you're going to
0:23:39 have to sin
0:23:40 and he said that these sins are not okay
0:23:45 you're saying that there's some kind of
0:23:47 inconsistency but then when we ask for
0:23:49 what the logical inconsistency is you
0:23:51 don't have one other thing
0:23:53 i'm trying to steal manual here it
0:23:55 doesn't feel good no we're trying to
0:23:56 steal man you but you're not giving us
0:23:58 anything to work with you're just saying
0:23:59 it's an emotional argument it's like
0:24:01 it's your belief not mine that's why i'm
0:24:03 asking you the question so let's go
0:24:04 ahead and final chance you're getting
0:24:06 into it you're getting to a conclusion
0:24:08 you're making an inference from either
0:24:10 what you're saying or what we're saying
0:24:12 that doesn't actually follow by
0:24:14 necessity that's the whole problem with
0:24:15 your argument
0:24:16 well my argument is basically this and
0:24:18 tell me you stop me when you disagree
0:24:20 with something
0:24:21 allah is perfect allah knew the future
0:24:24 um
0:24:26 he doesn't like sin he doesn't like
0:24:28 disbelief but he created it
0:24:31 uh what else
0:24:33 oh my god
0:24:34 i'm sorry
0:24:35 we're going to keep going on we're going
0:24:36 to keep going on so the point is either
0:24:39 make the logical argument or admit that
0:24:41 you're not making a logical argument
0:24:43 you're making it you're making an
0:24:45 argument from emotion in which case the
0:24:47 emotional argument is it's not quite
0:24:49 just an argument from from emotion it's
0:24:51 also an internal critique that shows
0:24:53 that there's a tension there and i think
0:24:54 even staff admits this
0:24:57 they're either provided either provide
0:24:59 the logical argument right now in law
0:25:01 and premise premise conclusion form or
0:25:03 go back
0:25:05 prepare it like ap did he did his
0:25:07 homework and he made a video after the
0:25:09 the stream go back prepare the argument
0:25:11 in a way that we can understand it well
0:25:13 here's the terms are defined where it's
0:25:14 intelligible and come presented and
0:25:16 we'll deal with it but the way
0:25:17 we're presenting it now that's not a
0:25:20 logical argument what's interesting
0:25:21 about this is there's there's hardly
0:25:22 anything you guys have disagreed with me
0:25:24 on it's maybe you said that i'm using
0:25:26 different the whole
0:25:27 is you're getting you're inferring
0:25:29 something based on what we agreed on and
0:25:32 you're getting to a conclusion that we
0:25:34 don't agree with now seth hasn't spoken
0:25:36 in a while i i'd like for him to come in
0:25:39 and maybe comment on on what he is
0:25:41 seeing happening here
0:25:42 oh no no no thanks for bringing in the
0:25:45 conversation again i think
0:25:47 it's important that perhaps we tease out
0:25:50 or when we can and another time perhaps
0:25:52 i'm not sure
0:25:53 what the assumptions are on each uh uh
0:25:57 what the underlying assumptions are of
0:25:59 the argument whenever we we begin with
0:26:02 um
0:26:03 would you prefer god doing x and y
0:26:05 already we have to assume
0:26:07 what is in top interlocutor
0:26:09 what is their idea about god um even if
0:26:12 they might try and use our own
0:26:13 definition
0:26:15 um
0:26:16 because grating underneath are these
0:26:19 assumptions about
0:26:20 surely god would not want to prefer a
0:26:22 world in which he creates free creatures
0:26:24 which has the the corollary of there
0:26:26 being sin not that he creates the sin
0:26:29 with the person but that there is a
0:26:31 coral of sin right
0:26:33 surely he would want a world in which
0:26:35 only there was good and not sin well how
0:26:38 do you know that i mean i mean we just
0:26:40 this is what i'm saying the value
0:26:42 criterion to use to judge one world is
0:26:45 better or or or
0:26:48 or worse than
0:26:49 and worse in what respect first of all
0:26:52 um that depends on the background
0:26:53 information we're using to construct the
0:26:55 argument so relative to certain
0:26:57 background information
0:26:59 me i'm sure the answers could be yes or
0:27:01 no so we have to get the background
0:27:03 information straight if someone says if
0:27:05 allah is x y
0:27:07 then
0:27:08 and then this happens then wouldn't the
0:27:10 conclusion be this yeah given x and y
0:27:13 but let me also bring in a b and c can
0:27:15 you see so the background information is
0:27:17 important for how we construct the
0:27:18 argument um so i think i'd better it
0:27:21 would be better for me to learn
0:27:23 learn better the argument perhaps when
0:27:26 we have
0:27:27 a way we can but you've you've heard
0:27:29 what i've said before right
0:27:30 there's nothing new and and usually the
0:27:32 outs a lot of theists give is that they
0:27:34 limit god's um knowledge of the future
0:27:37 they you know there's open theists yeah
0:27:39 yeah they they say he can only know the
0:27:41 nobles so that's one out that theaters
0:27:42 have another i would say that god is
0:27:45 they limit his omnipotence
0:27:47 that that
0:27:48 that certain attributes of god is better
0:27:51 when it's demonstrated and so therefore
0:27:52 that's why you need to create another
0:27:55 out is that god is not free it's part of
0:27:57 his nature to create so he had to create
0:28:00 because if he was free he would see
0:28:01 what's come and say you know what i
0:28:03 don't need this
0:28:04 i don't need people that's an assumption
0:28:06 i don't need this i mean it's not about
0:28:07 needs so this is what do you believe
0:28:09 that that sounds becomes
0:28:10 yeah the language becomes very important
0:28:12 it's not that god is perfected if he
0:28:14 didn't create a world or he did create a
0:28:15 world or some
0:28:17 um some particular purpose completes his
0:28:20 actions or something like that to assume
0:28:23 that about god you know he's all ready
0:28:25 to make assumptions about the nature do
0:28:27 you believe that allah needed to create
0:28:29 in order to no i'm saying he doesn't he
0:28:31 didn't need anything yeah yeah yeah yeah
0:28:33 so if allah could have just walked away
0:28:35 from creation and said i don't need this
0:28:37 i don't need people to
0:28:38 ask forgiveness of me
0:28:40 but that again it goes back to what
0:28:42 you're what you take god to be at the
0:28:43 same time as well he he wanted to create
0:28:46 i mean
0:28:47 so we're going into the realms of divine
0:28:48 motives you see so it becomes difficult
0:28:51 if you're assuming
0:28:53 um that this is a this is a being who is
0:28:57 you know maximally great powerful and
0:29:00 has all the great making properties that
0:29:02 philosophers talk about um so he has
0:29:04 those properties assuming that you take
0:29:06 that kind of understanding
0:29:08 assuming it for the argument if you are
0:29:10 then
0:29:11 um
0:29:12 you know
0:29:13 you're going to be restricted in how and
0:29:15 what you can say about the divine i'm
0:29:17 just saying that i can't make these
0:29:19 value judgments because
0:29:21 it's in the realm of the divine
0:29:23 motives and actions now how could i know
0:29:26 you know
0:29:27 which world to prefer you know a world
0:29:29 where this
0:29:30 allah himself and then allah plus the
0:29:33 rest of creation
0:29:34 right which is better which i would
0:29:36 prefer i need some
0:29:39 criterion right to to to to decide which
0:29:42 one and most people don't prefer pain
0:29:44 suffering and definitely hell i think
0:29:46 that's pretty safe to say
0:29:48 but these are yours
0:29:51 this is the whole point that's a pretty
0:29:52 good assumption
0:29:53 they may be just different no
0:29:55 no but these are your that's where we
0:29:57 disagree with someone raise their hand
0:29:58 who prefers hell
0:30:00 i mean eternal conscious torment
0:30:02 concrete nope that's why i'm so worried
0:30:04 about it and this is where you you know
0:30:06 knowing the realizing the seriousness of
0:30:07 hell i want to share the message of
0:30:09 truth to others to save myself and
0:30:11 others from this but nobody prefers to
0:30:14 be there is my point yeah but you're
0:30:16 you're saying a world in which there is
0:30:18 hell as opposed to one that's not and
0:30:20 you're trying to say that everyone
0:30:21 should say that the one where there is a
0:30:23 hell is necessarily worse than one that
0:30:26 where there isn't but that's again
0:30:28 that's an assumption that we're not
0:30:30 buying into so you have to provide an
0:30:32 argument for that
0:30:33 underlying assumption that's
0:30:35 underpinning your entire argument or a
0:30:36 valid criteria that's what is the
0:30:38 criteria and you don't have a criterion
0:30:40 by which you can even judge for
0:30:42 preferring one way world over another
0:30:45 well i can that's why i was asking the
0:30:47 questions about the criterion
0:30:49 from allah's perspective yes and
0:30:51 obviously by the fact that he created
0:30:53 that demonstrates your assumption that
0:30:56 this world is necessarily worse is
0:30:58 actually
0:31:00 the fact that he created yeah the fact
0:31:02 that he created demonstrations this is
0:31:04 that your that your assumption
0:31:07 that based on his character maybe
0:31:10 let me finish sir that he would not have
0:31:12 created is fundamentally flawed unless
0:31:15 he's like schizophrenic i mean
0:31:18 but because you said because you said
0:31:20 because the fact he created shows that
0:31:23 he did want this did prefer this but
0:31:26 this is the question at hand the problem
0:31:28 of evil is a question that's posited by
0:31:31 atheists or even non-theists of a
0:31:33 different religion
0:31:34 to to as an internal critique that maybe
0:31:36 the god you're talking about doesn't
0:31:38 exist
0:31:40 yeah but we already have arguments that
0:31:42 get us to that god i know i understand
0:31:44 there's a cumulative case when you talk
0:31:46 about other things but on this issue
0:31:48 alone with the problem of evil you can't
0:31:49 look at it in a vacuum you're assuming
0:31:52 we're we're now sentient beings looking
0:31:55 at this issue and asking ourselves
0:31:58 maybe allah
0:32:00 can i give you two statements hell
0:32:01 exists
0:32:02 hell is real
0:32:03 okay
0:32:04 uh god does not exist
0:32:07 how can you feel the steps for me for
0:32:09 those two statements
0:32:10 uh you could be really hard without
0:32:12 changing the definition of hell well
0:32:14 this is this is the point so the whole
0:32:16 the whole
0:32:17 um you cannot in you cannot say well
0:32:20 some people say hell's reincarnation
0:32:22 into the world this is what i'm just
0:32:23 about to come to i'm just about to
0:32:25 elaborate on on on this this
0:32:27 hypothetical argument so this is why i'm
0:32:29 saying that
0:32:30 you cannot infer the non-existence of
0:32:33 god
0:32:34 um from the existence of hell
0:32:37 um just like we argue for about an hour
0:32:39 and a half we discuss
0:32:41 that you cannot include
0:32:42 the the non-existence of god from the
0:32:45 existence of evil so you've got to fill
0:32:47 in the steps so you have a certain
0:32:49 argument they've got to fill in the
0:32:50 steps and give their definitions one of
0:32:52 the definitions of god is
0:32:54 if one if if if one of the definitions
0:32:56 of god is a god that doesn't want anyone
0:32:58 to go to hell
0:33:00 which i know you guys don't believe but
0:33:01 if
0:33:02 someone had that definition and you
0:33:04 could demonstrate or say in some way i
0:33:06 don't know how the hell is real and
0:33:07 people go there then you've defeated
0:33:10 that god
0:33:11 yeah no uh because it doesn't disprove
0:33:14 god exists it you've just shown an
0:33:16 argument that might be a rebutting
0:33:18 defeater
0:33:19 yeah that's what i mean it might be but
0:33:21 it's not clear how do you have to show a
0:33:23 logical contradiction for it to be a
0:33:24 rebutting defeater yeah it's the want
0:33:26 not want that's the logical
0:33:27 contradiction i think when we when we
0:33:30 see the argument if i personally i would
0:33:31 like to learn better um well you've
0:33:33 heard this before like this is the
0:33:34 possible worlds before creation type
0:33:36 argument which i'm not the problem with
0:33:38 the problem again
0:33:39 assumptions about metaphysics or
0:33:40 possible worlds and so on yeah but i've
0:33:42 taken way too much of your time i think
0:33:44 the problem pine creek is this is that
0:33:46 you're not we're trying to deal with
0:33:47 your argument
0:33:49 now you're trying to say on the one hand
0:33:50 that your god is impossible and we're
0:33:53 saying in order for you to say our god
0:33:55 is impossible you have to prove you have
0:33:58 to use that word impossible
0:33:59 you have to provide a logical argument
0:34:02 to demonstrate a logical impossibility
0:34:05 initially you came on and you started
0:34:07 saying i'm here just to make muslims
0:34:08 feel icky about that position
0:34:11 well yeah and then abdulrahman explained
0:34:14 the point which is that well that's just
0:34:15 an appeal to emotion jake made the point
0:34:17 as well uh then said look okay what's
0:34:19 the actual
0:34:20 uh logical contradiction what's the
0:34:22 premise premise conclusion that we can
0:34:24 look at thoroughly and analyze where
0:34:25 there are logical contradictions you
0:34:27 didn't really provide one per se yeah
0:34:29 except no or well okay go ahead and
0:34:31 explain it one more time explain
0:34:33 here's a logical concept this is and
0:34:35 what you're saying this is a logical
0:34:36 contradiction yeah
0:34:38 no well
0:34:40 if there is a logical contradiction but
0:34:42 it's all steeped deep in definitions
0:34:44 it's the want god uh sorry allah wants
0:34:47 and allah doesn't want and then abdul
0:34:49 mentioned this earlier when he talked
0:34:51 about that i forget the words he used
0:34:53 because he spoke a different language
0:34:54 but there's the different
0:34:56 ways of decrees he decrees the cosmic
0:34:59 reality that and
0:35:04 people can freely choose but at the same
0:35:06 time he legislates for human beings to
0:35:08 say that they should avoid uh sin and
0:35:12 helpful or sin and disbelief yeah so
0:35:14 there's no there's no logical
0:35:15 contradiction there well so the point is
0:35:18 this is a logical contradiction would be
0:35:20 is that god
0:35:22 wants to stop all disbelief but
0:35:24 disbelief exists therefore god is either
0:35:27 not omnipotent or he's not all-knowing
0:35:30 yeah
0:35:31 that would be a logical contradiction
0:35:33 that's why but what you're trying to do
0:35:34 is you're trying to say this is what
0:35:36 islam fits into but islam doesn't fit
0:35:37 into this well i agree if allah wants to
0:35:40 although
0:35:41 then there's no problem
0:35:42 because yeah so islam says this this is
0:35:45 what islam says islam says that allah
0:35:48 created the world created heaven and
0:35:50 hell and created human beings with free
0:35:53 will to the ability to choose and then
0:35:55 said to human beings that if you freely
0:35:57 try to understand all that if you freely
0:35:59 choose to have belief in good actions
0:36:00 you go to paradise if you freely choose
0:36:02 to commit sin and disbelief you go to
0:36:04 hellfire
0:36:06 yeah now on that premise that's why i
0:36:08 asked you a very specific question on
0:36:10 that premise what is the logical
0:36:12 contradiction or is it just an appeal to
0:36:14 emotion there's no logical contradiction
0:36:17 at all okay if if you guys believe that
0:36:20 allah wants people to go to hell
0:36:22 no but
0:36:23 what did i just say there i said god
0:36:25 created human beings right free will he
0:36:27 created the universe or a creation with
0:36:30 heaven and hell yeah right and he god
0:36:32 legislated
0:36:35 i understand god legislated yeah that
0:36:37 that therefore whoever commits disbelief
0:36:40 yeah will be assigned to hell fire and
0:36:43 whoever's belief and righteous actions
0:36:44 will go right now you want to focus on
0:36:46 the free will of humans and i want to
0:36:47 focus on the free will of allah that's
0:36:48 the point
0:36:50 right so explaining
0:36:57 so you're saying that god could have
0:36:59 created a universe in which human beings
0:37:02 only choose to go to paradise no no i'm
0:37:05 not even saying that i'm saying allah
0:37:07 had two choices create or not create
0:37:10 so let's assume if he creates it would
0:37:13 have to be exactly what you guys are
0:37:14 describing
0:37:15 that's one option the other option is
0:37:17 don't don't create anything okay
0:37:19 and there's two options and then so and
0:37:22 so if you're a muslim and you say oh no
0:37:25 allah is okay i mean i know the language
0:37:27 is a problem allah is okay with it or he
0:37:30 desires it or he wanted to but he's not
0:37:33 surprised by what happens with his
0:37:34 creation and so he created knowing
0:37:37 exactly what would happen that some
0:37:38 people would end up in hell and you know
0:37:40 what he created anyhow
0:37:42 yeah that's all i'm saying so he yeah
0:37:43 there's no contradiction so what's the
0:37:45 contradiction that there is
0:37:47 so so my goal in circles guys no but our
0:37:50 pancreas your goal should be this your
0:37:53 goal should be to be epistemically
0:37:55 justified and consistent with the way
0:37:58 you're trying to build an argument
0:38:00 building an argument just appealing to
0:38:01 emotion is not sincere honest well you
0:38:05 could say sincere and honest in one
0:38:07 perspective but he's not
0:38:09 epistemically justified to build an
0:38:11 argument just to appeal to emotions
0:38:13 because we can make any argument based
0:38:15 upon emotions it then becomes my
0:38:17 emotions versus somebody else's emotions
0:38:20 you want to have you want to be able to
0:38:23 treat the environment on reason and
0:38:24 arguments isn't it yeah but sharif the
0:38:27 other problem is is that you said you
0:38:29 were doing an internal critique but then
0:38:30 it ended up being an external critique
0:38:32 because
0:38:33 because of your fundamental
0:38:35 presupposition of saying well surely
0:38:38 anybody would agree that this world is
0:38:40 not as good as this other world no i
0:38:43 just talked about one little thing i
0:38:44 said anybody here who wants to spend
0:38:46 eternity in hell raise your hand and
0:38:48 abdullah even admitted earlier he agreed
0:38:49 okay i know what you mean no we didn't
0:38:51 we never said no no we never said see
0:38:53 you're confusing the difference between
0:38:56 an individual actually wanting to spend
0:38:58 eternity in hell versus a world in which
0:39:01 hell exists the two aren't the same and
0:39:04 for you to act as if they are the same
0:39:06 is a problem
0:39:07 the the bottom line is this there would
0:39:09 be no disbelief no sin no pain no
0:39:12 suffering no hell people in hell if
0:39:14 allah never created and that's something
0:39:15 everyone here agrees and
0:39:17 and
0:39:19 here's your
0:39:20 statement what's the conclusion
0:39:22 the conclusion is
0:39:23 that you have a choice to worship a god
0:39:26 or not that's the conclusion yeah you do
0:39:28 have a choice and
0:39:30 so what
0:39:31 and so or come or be open to the idea
0:39:34 that maybe the god you believe in
0:39:36 doesn't exist maybe there is a god but
0:39:38 not the one you believe in
0:39:40 because
0:39:41 i guarantee you
0:39:43 i i guaran this this is one claim i'll
0:39:45 i'll make i'll guarantee that there's
0:39:47 some muslims listening here
0:39:49 who are listening
0:39:51 i'm waiting for your argument pine creek
0:39:53 how does that argument that you just
0:39:55 presented result in god does not exist
0:39:58 or your god does not exist no i'm not if
0:40:00 your god exists then this is what i was
0:40:02 going to say i guarantee you some
0:40:03 muslims who might be you know the weak
0:40:05 type
0:40:06 wavering on the fence are going to hear
0:40:08 what we're discussing and say you know
0:40:10 what that pine creek kind of makes sense
0:40:15 well i'm pancreas please don't use that
0:40:17 language yeah uh
0:40:19 i don't
0:40:20 yeah it is yeah pine creek what i don't
0:40:22 understand is where's your argument
0:40:25 he doesn't have one doesn't happen
0:40:26 where's your argument
0:40:28 argument is allah wants allah
0:40:31 hold on hold on hold on
0:40:32 you said you said at the first
0:40:35 again you're sort of changing initially
0:40:36 he said no your god does not exist
0:40:38 because and then you're about to give an
0:40:40 explanation then you start saying well
0:40:41 some muslims i didn't say that
0:40:43 then then you said muslims might not be
0:40:44 wavy now you're saying to me god wants
0:40:47 god doesn't want right that's another
0:40:49 that's right
0:40:52 i've given you an answer a number of
0:40:54 times and you said yeah okay that makes
0:40:55 sense it's not an internal critique then
0:40:57 you said it's not a logical
0:40:58 contradiction no you're i give you your
0:41:00 own
0:41:01 then you said it's not a logical
0:41:02 contradiction so what exactly is the
0:41:05 argument do you understand where the
0:41:07 frustration is the argument is allah has
0:41:10 free will did not need to create decided
0:41:12 to create knowing exactly what would
0:41:14 happen and it leads some people to hell
0:41:16 okay so what's up so sorry hold on what
0:41:19 what's that what what's that problem
0:41:21 his creation lead to pain evil suffering
0:41:24 and some people going to hell what what
0:41:26 category is that a logical contradiction
0:41:29 is it an evidential no i would say
0:41:31 that's just i would say that's a logical
0:41:33 deduction of where the premises lead
0:41:36 that you believe in a god who created
0:41:37 knowing what will happen was okay with
0:41:39 it whatever that means and that led to
0:41:41 people going to hell
0:41:43 but what does that mean in terms of your
0:41:45 argument against islam and against god
0:41:48 in general or god or the god that we all
0:41:50 all i'm pointing out is what you believe
0:41:53 yeah i'm pointing out what you believe
0:41:56 but we as muslims we know what we
0:41:57 believe this is not are you sure for us
0:41:59 maybe you guys do but not all of them
0:42:01 i'm sure you admit that i think i think
0:42:03 i'll see one thing i just want to we're
0:42:04 gonna have to move on guys we're gonna
0:42:06 have to let me just say one thing one
0:42:08 thing and then we'll move on because
0:42:09 pine creek what he's trying to do here
0:42:11 is his thesis statement because he he
0:42:13 didn't manage to to bring the position
0:42:15 to a contradiction so he's saying well
0:42:16 maybe some people in the audience will
0:42:18 see the fact that god wanted some people
0:42:21 or willed for some people to
0:42:24 burn in hell therefore you know they
0:42:26 might have some kind of an emotional
0:42:27 reaction to that and you know leave
0:42:30 islam or something fine but you need to
0:42:32 admit that it's an emotional reaction
0:42:35 and and since we're appealing to
0:42:36 emotions here i'd like to rephrase that
0:42:38 statement that god willed for creatures
0:42:41 who freely choose to be evil
0:42:44 to justly get punished in hell if
0:42:47 somebody has a negative emotional
0:42:48 reaction to that then by all means but
0:42:50 what sharif was just saying is that a
0:42:53 negative emotional reaction or an
0:42:54 argument for motion can be valuable to
0:42:57 some people but we prefer evidence and
0:42:58 reason so maybe next time when you have
0:43:00 an actual logical argument and you have
0:43:03 actual reasons to present
0:43:06 and you you you choose to do that
0:43:08 instead of appealing to emotion we can
0:43:10 have a discussion i'm not trying to be
0:43:11 rude to you i'm just saying that
0:43:12 literally you're not presenting an
0:43:13 argument but
0:43:15 i'm what i'm hearing
0:43:16 and i've been hearing this from sharif
0:43:18 as well it's like
0:43:19 it i hear an overcompensation like you
0:43:22 guys really need to show that what you
0:43:24 believe is logical and it's full of
0:43:26 evidence because we don't want to look
0:43:27 stupid right that's why i'm i'm
0:43:29 sensitive
0:43:31 taking you seriously man we're taking
0:43:33 you seriously you're saying you make a
0:43:34 logical argument we want you to present
0:43:36 it you want to say you want to make an
0:43:37 argument i came on here i want to deal
0:43:39 with it i think you're going to have
0:43:40 asking almost all questions
0:43:43 i made one claim
0:43:45 that you made an emotional appeal to the
0:43:47 audience thank you thank you for coming
0:43:49 pine creek pine creek the point
0:43:51 is the point pancreatic if you need to
0:43:53 go that's fine but i just wanted to make
0:43:55 this point as well no he has to go
0:43:57 whether he wants to go or not because we
0:43:59 have other people not okay
0:44:01 rude but we have other people waiting
0:44:03 more interesting those other people
0:44:06 i don't think so no sure
0:44:08 we'll find out
0:44:09 take care guys thanks for having me on
0:44:11 thank you take care take care bye
0:44:13 okay while he's off because i do really
0:44:15 want to make this point and hopefully by
0:44:17 creek's listening in the uh in the chat
0:44:20 uh in the youtube the point is this is
0:44:22 that look he's trying to present an
0:44:24 emotional argument to try to so-called
0:44:26 shake the foundations of some muslims
0:44:28 yeah
0:44:29 it's an emotional argument that's it
0:44:32 that's all he's doing he's not even an
0:44:33 argument he's the same
0:44:37 it's just an emotion now you can't go
0:44:39 from saying i'm trying to make an
0:44:41 internal critique
0:44:42 to then saying well i'm just trying to
0:44:44 affect emotional people you know
0:44:46 emotional uh weak-minded muslims or
0:44:48 whatever it is he needs to think about
0:44:51 himself and look at his own epistemic
0:44:53 foundations and how he builds his own
0:44:56 how he builds his own ideas up first and
0:44:58 foremost he should not be building his
0:45:01 ideas based upon emotions and rejecting
0:45:04 one proposition over another proposition
0:45:06 just because it makes him feel icky thus
0:45:09 yeah you know it's crazy yeah and he
0:45:11 said oh well the muslims here they just
0:45:13 want to be
0:45:14 logical and rational well yeah of course
0:45:17 we don't want to make arguments and have
0:45:20 our beliefs based purely on emotion
0:45:23 rather than logic and reason of course
0:45:25 now doug if that's what you want then
0:45:28 fine maybe that's why you're an atheist
0:45:30 because your arguments and your position
0:45:32 is based on emotion rather than reason
0:45:35 and you know the fact that you were kind
0:45:36 of happy to admit that live on the show
0:45:39 i think that's a plus for us and not for
0:45:42 you
0:45:51 you