Age of Aisha (RA) - Part 2: Definition of Childhood | Mohammed Hijab (2022-12-20) ​

0:00:00 oh
0:00:05 foreign
0:00:15 and some issues regarding that
0:00:18 and before we continue with uh what we
0:00:20 were going through perhaps it makes
0:00:22 sense for us to do a bit of a recap and
0:00:24 for me to ask everyone there to
0:00:26 summarize some of the arguments now we
0:00:29 um
0:00:30 discussed a particular verse in the
0:00:33 Bible the Old Testament who remembers
0:00:35 what verse it was and what the contents
0:00:36 of that verse met did you remember the
0:00:38 uh
0:00:39 contents of ours
0:00:45 okay I need that was the rescue here I
0:00:48 just know I don't know the verse so if
0:00:51 someone can be with the verse their
0:00:53 numbers
0:00:54 31 18. I just remember all of a sudden
0:00:57 what does it saying
0:00:59 that basically when you go well in a
0:01:02 paraphrase and when you go to a specific
0:01:04 Nation to war and you kill the men uh
0:01:06 you keep the woman that Untouched by the
0:01:08 way so not all of them the ones that are
0:01:10 virgins for yourselves okay and the
0:01:12 woman or is it something else that was
0:01:13 mentioned sorry
0:01:15 kill the men and kill keep the woman who
0:01:18 have been on touch for yourselves okay
0:01:20 that might be one translation but what
0:01:22 was the words do you remember yes that's
0:01:25 beautiful the the Hebrew word the Hebrew
0:01:28 word
0:01:30 yeah and what does that mean when it
0:01:31 looks at lexicons and the word tough
0:01:33 what does it mean actually
0:01:38 young girls young girls and some some
0:01:41 see three year old write some rabbis I
0:01:43 mean that's different now but we'll just
0:01:44 focus one thing at a time this question
0:01:46 of what is tough
0:01:48 what is it in the what what other
0:01:50 translations do we have of it
0:01:53 yes young girls okay good so what does
0:01:57 this uh show us
0:02:00 go ahead foreign
0:02:07 was allowed for
0:02:10 for the Jews to
0:02:13 um
0:02:13 Murray
0:02:15 in this case little girls okay and so
0:02:18 good thank you very much now if I've
0:02:20 come back and said okay you're speaking
0:02:21 to a Christian now and the Christian
0:02:23 turns back shackle and says look I mean
0:02:25 that was the Old Testament now we have
0:02:26 the New Testament
0:02:28 why you know what
0:02:30 we believe that Jesus died on the cross
0:02:33 and all these things in the Old
0:02:34 Testament we don't really accept so how
0:02:35 would you accept it how would you answer
0:02:36 that said okay but uh did God command it
0:02:38 in the Old Testament
0:02:40 so yeah he did in the Old Testament okay
0:02:42 so uh that's that means that it's not
0:02:45 wrong in all teams all times small
0:02:46 places all situations yeah it's just
0:02:49 like you know for example you guys
0:02:50 believe in uh Adam and Eve the The
0:02:53 Offspring had probably committed incest
0:02:56 they had no problems were in agreement
0:02:59 okay so uh you you but the difference
0:03:02 between me and you would be that we
0:03:05 believe that
0:03:06 um
0:03:07 you know
0:03:08 Jesus Christ came and he that we don't
0:03:11 want to have these laws you guys believe
0:03:13 that the prophet Muhammad
0:03:15 was a guide for all times in all places
0:03:20 yeah that was awesome yeah so so you for
0:03:24 you it's still applicables you can still
0:03:25 follow him
0:03:27 you can still follow the profit here
0:03:29 what we're saying is that that wasn't
0:03:30 absolutely right now for example like as
0:03:32 a Christian let's say yeah as a
0:03:34 Christian I would say
0:03:36 um just as you believe that incestors
0:03:39 done or has been had been done by The
0:03:42 Offspring of Adam
0:03:44 and um
0:03:46 and that was that was applicable at that
0:03:48 time in that place we believe that
0:03:50 there's an applicability of this
0:03:52 particular ruling you know of taking the
0:03:55 young girls for yourself no problem we
0:03:56 accept him
0:03:59 difference being between us and you is
0:04:00 that you believe
0:04:02 that this is continual to our times
0:04:05 what's the problem
0:04:07 this is this is the argument we're
0:04:09 putting forward that this is no longer
0:04:10 applicable we're saying this some
0:04:12 moralities
0:04:13 you know are applicable sometimes
0:04:14 they're not applicable other times yeah
0:04:16 that's fine okay
0:04:19 I'm I'm not trying to like just be like
0:04:21 pathetic I generally don't understand
0:04:22 the point in all situations it's like
0:04:24 we're talking circumstantially here so
0:04:25 the question the discussion have to
0:04:27 become about what an analysis we're
0:04:29 using how we're analyzing the
0:04:31 circumstances to allow things to not
0:04:32 allow things but it sounds like we're in
0:04:34 agreement that there is a certain
0:04:36 substantial consideration here as a
0:04:37 Christian what I'm saying is for example
0:04:39 that
0:04:41 after after Jesus come and died on the
0:04:44 cross okay okay
0:04:46 and didn't reality become absolutely so
0:04:49 all I'm saying is that when Jesus come
0:04:51 these alterations Old Testament
0:04:53 injunctions are no longer applicable no
0:04:55 problem but
0:04:56 but you believe that Prophet Muhammad
0:04:58 whatever he's done yes you know uh is
0:05:01 still applicable this is the difference
0:05:02 between me and you this is why this is
0:05:04 why Christianity is a religion which is
0:05:06 adaptable and it's a you know and you
0:05:08 guys need to reform your religion
0:05:09 actually
0:05:10 that's why you need to reformulation
0:05:12 where's the disagreement with life I
0:05:15 don't understand what's the disagreement
0:05:16 so it's basically saying that because
0:05:18 yeah no it's basically reputation will
0:05:21 be done on you remember the last time
0:05:22 you helped somebody in the fight yeah
0:05:24 yeah which one I've had many times Yeah
0:05:26 so basically what they're saying is that
0:05:29 um with us the process and with them uh
0:05:32 with the Christians basically they have
0:05:34 now the new law Jesus died for their
0:05:36 sins they don't need to follow the Old
0:05:37 Law whereas with you Muslims you have to
0:05:39 follow your Prophet through this day
0:05:40 this day meaning you can marry a
0:05:42 six-year-old so they're saying so he
0:05:44 didn't say that though I want to see it
0:05:46 in different words yeah look I I wanted
0:05:47 like if that's you didn't say that I
0:05:50 wanted you to say that you didn't say
0:05:52 that because I mean let me make it works
0:05:53 because now the devil's in the details
0:05:55 let's say so for you guys you'd still
0:05:58 believe that marrying a six-year-old and
0:05:59 consummating the marriage of a
0:06:00 nine-year-old is a morally acceptable
0:06:03 thing to do in the 21st century for
0:06:04 example whereas you would say
0:06:06 um you know mentioning or citing Old
0:06:09 Testament laws to try and State the
0:06:11 Christian position today yeah would be
0:06:14 something which would be um completely
0:06:16 unnecessary or in fact inappropriate
0:06:20 simply in Islam you're allowed to marry
0:06:23 an adult if it's not going to cause harm
0:06:24 to that individual
0:06:26 okay
0:06:27 we're talking about this is that that's
0:06:30 what we're factoring in this in the
0:06:31 circumstantial analysis why
0:06:34 because it's based on that there's uh
0:06:36 sorry principles and all these things
0:06:40 but that's what we're explaining so I
0:06:44 understand I'm going to experience let
0:06:46 me let me push Ali for a little bit
0:06:47 because these are these are these are
0:06:48 the things you're gonna encounter it's
0:06:50 good you've done good I know so today
0:06:53 we're doing uh we're pushing everyone
0:06:54 today because this is the kind of thing
0:06:56 you're definitely going to face because
0:06:57 you know what I'm saying like like for
0:06:58 my standpoint yeah if you're not going
0:07:00 to be very clear that I have a problem
0:07:01 with the fact that it's six I don't just
0:07:03 kind of want to give that to you I'm
0:07:05 saying if you've done you've done well
0:07:06 but there was a few things you missed
0:07:07 out because here's
0:07:10 here's what I would say
0:07:12 when you we kind of went through this
0:07:14 last time but this is very important
0:07:16 that you follow the method of this
0:07:18 because if you follow the method of it
0:07:20 you're going to trap the guy you will
0:07:22 trap the guy if you remember last time
0:07:24 in last week's discussion
0:07:28 we we said something two two or three
0:07:31 things which are very important
0:07:33 first thing you don't trap somebody by
0:07:34 making a point you trap someone by
0:07:36 asking a question
0:07:37 just remember this point you can never
0:07:39 trap anybody by asking making a point
0:07:41 you don't see like for example the
0:07:43 interrogate the interrogate in the
0:07:46 police station
0:07:47 and he's sitting down and then the
0:07:49 investigator comes in and the
0:07:51 investigator starts putting question
0:07:52 point no he's asking questions questions
0:07:54 and to a point where this interrogated
0:07:57 one now
0:07:58 he's gonna start
0:07:59 feeling trapped
0:08:01 the first question who remembers on this
0:08:04 point yes
0:08:07 yes okay so let's let's start again okay
0:08:09 so before you do start I want to get you
0:08:11 I want to let's get the template right
0:08:12 yeah I'm trying to have understood but
0:08:16 do you remember the first question that
0:08:17 we have to ask yes
0:08:21 don't use the word deontological because
0:08:23 most people understand that basically
0:08:25 categorically wrong or consequently
0:08:26 wrong good so now once we agree that
0:08:27 it's not category okay fine so I'm
0:08:31 coming in now so same question okay so
0:08:33 you you you as Christians We Believe yes
0:08:36 that when Jesus Christ came yeah
0:08:39 you know he he died from sins okay okay
0:08:41 and
0:08:43 um he was crucified okay resurrected on
0:08:45 the third day yeah and so on okay and so
0:08:48 we don't actually when you cite Old
0:08:50 Testament material yeah yeah for us
0:08:53 that's not applicable okay because Jesus
0:08:55 died for our sins and we believe in the
0:08:57 New Covenant now okay okay
0:09:00 um
0:09:01 so that that's the difference between us
0:09:02 and you because what we're saying is
0:09:03 that this morality is no longer
0:09:06 applicable you guys believe in a prophet
0:09:07 who married uh you know a young girl at
0:09:11 the age of six and a new consummation at
0:09:12 age of nine so that's the difference
0:09:14 between us and you so okay so firstly
0:09:16 that we agree that it was it
0:09:18 categorically wrong
0:09:20 you you disagree it's not categorically
0:09:22 wrong because at one time the god of the
0:09:23 Old Testament allowed it right so what
0:09:25 are you asking here I'm asking very
0:09:26 simple do you believe it's categorically
0:09:28 wrong or consequently wrong what what
0:09:30 was exactly for example that in the Book
0:09:32 of Numbers yeah yes so do you believe at
0:09:35 one moment of the time God allowed that
0:09:36 to happen yeah at one point so did you
0:09:38 have a problem with that
0:09:40 one moment of time at one point of time
0:09:42 so it means that you don't believe it's
0:09:43 categorically wrong
0:09:46 okay good so so now you have to agree
0:09:48 that it has to be consequently right it
0:09:50 has to be so then we're both on the same
0:09:51 page because what that means is for time
0:09:53 and place due to bear in mind the
0:09:55 consequences it changes so just we know
0:09:58 the consequences will be very traumatic
0:10:00 for a young person what we're trying to
0:10:02 say is this as you are consequential are
0:10:04 you just are you justifying are you
0:10:05 justifying a child being uh if you stop
0:10:08 talking let me tell you yeah okay are
0:10:10 you justifying if you just shut up for a
0:10:12 second
0:10:13 okay so since you believe it's
0:10:15 consequently wrong we are at the same
0:10:17 page with you guys because you're saying
0:10:18 at that moment in time that was not uh
0:10:20 that God ordered that to happen and it
0:10:23 was right at that time and we're saying
0:10:25 the same thing so we're not saying that
0:10:27 the prophet Muhammad married six is
0:10:29 categorically going to take place in
0:10:31 every moment of time at this time it's a
0:10:32 it's consequentially uh we look at the
0:10:34 consequences so um
0:10:37 am I on the right track okay but what
0:10:39 I'm saying the consequences must have
0:10:40 been very dire very traumatic for you
0:10:42 but but again the fact that you accept
0:10:44 the fact you allow you no no no no no no
0:10:46 no no
0:10:49 no no no yeah so what we're saying is
0:10:50 that in that specific instance that if
0:10:52 you believe that we're on the same page
0:10:54 we both believe that God command is
0:10:55 something to happen in that specific
0:10:57 instance for that time so that means in
0:10:58 today's time just as you believe Jesus
0:11:00 came and died for the sins of the world
0:11:01 and there's a whole different Paradigm
0:11:02 we follow the same concept the same
0:11:04 principles it's good that I'm liking the
0:11:06 fact that you're cool-headed because
0:11:07 this is the kind of behavior yeah
0:11:09 because they want you to get angry yes
0:11:11 but I like that there was now he's done
0:11:14 almost everything
0:11:16 okay the first good thing is you ask the
0:11:19 question and I had two answers and I was
0:11:21 forced into one of them yes then you ran
0:11:24 with that it's like now you since it's
0:11:26 the World Cup you know you passed it and
0:11:28 there's a through ball now so you're
0:11:29 running up the pitch I like it but we
0:11:31 need not to get today okay good The
0:11:33 Penalty Box now yes
0:11:35 the concert when they go through the
0:11:36 consequence remember we said there's two
0:11:38 options yeah they can either say
0:11:39 consequently wrong or categorically
0:11:41 wrong yeah if they go with a
0:11:43 consequentially wrong option yeah
0:11:46 what do we need to outline
0:11:48 that in in it's not in all times and all
0:11:51 places it's wrong no but before we even
0:11:53 talk about that ready we need to prove
0:11:55 that actually was harmed beautiful so
0:11:58 before that we need to we need to
0:12:00 establish what consequence are we
0:12:02 talking about okay so you ask them what
0:12:04 consequence what negative consequence
0:12:06 for example are you talking about so now
0:12:08 they're going to say what age
0:12:12 so the moment they use the word harm the
0:12:15 burden of proof shifts on them on them
0:12:18 because now I am clearly making a claim
0:12:20 I'm saying that this marriage or this
0:12:23 Union between the prophet Muhammad the
0:12:25 age of nine it caused harm now you can
0:12:28 break that down what kind of
0:12:29 psychological harm physical harm uh
0:12:32 societal harm whatever sociological
0:12:33 whatever harm you want to bring to the
0:12:35 table
0:12:36 now I have to bring evidence
0:12:38 now I've become if it's a biological
0:12:40 case I'm making then we're going to
0:12:42 start exchanging scientific information
0:12:44 if it's if a psychological case I'm
0:12:46 making then that's where the fire is
0:12:50 okay you see but so you're on the right
0:12:53 tracks I think
0:12:55 you have to get used to asking questions
0:12:58 be fine be comfortable asking them
0:13:00 questions because when you ask them
0:13:01 questions and they agree you've taken
0:13:03 them once you've taken the book one step
0:13:05 further to the Penalty Box you're about
0:13:07 to score the goal yeah yeah okay
0:13:09 so one more time let's do this one more
0:13:12 time okay so okay okay so let's start
0:13:13 again okay let's start again so yeah
0:13:15 basically so this time yeah we're gonna
0:13:17 start with mehdi and then you're gonna
0:13:18 jump in yeah go ahead so many yes
0:13:23 and you have an advantage I must say
0:13:24 because you've had two people already
0:13:26 before you okay and we've done a lot of
0:13:27 things but uh so the difference between
0:13:30 us and you as Christians is that we say
0:13:32 we're saying that you know number 31 8
0:13:35 18 that was something yes I agree if it
0:13:38 was to be implemented today it would be
0:13:39 abhorrent it's absolutely important but
0:13:42 that's why Jesus came the second
0:13:44 Covenant and you know he's crucified for
0:13:46 us since we don't have to think about
0:13:47 the Old Testament laws the difference
0:13:48 between us and you is that you believe
0:13:51 you believe that the prophet Muhammad is
0:13:53 continually a role model for you and
0:13:55 that his behavior was justified so are
0:13:57 you visiting this one as a categorical
0:13:59 thing or is it based on consequences
0:14:01 what do you mean exactly I don't
0:14:03 understand it so you're saying for
0:14:04 example the age of consent or you know
0:14:06 when you can have intercourse with
0:14:07 someone yes is this based is that a
0:14:09 categorical thing like is this age they
0:14:11 can have sex with someone or is it based
0:14:13 on consequences
0:14:27 okay good I mean look you could make a
0:14:30 case for consequences you know you could
0:14:32 make a case for consequences right and
0:14:33 we flicking the world now some countries
0:14:34 is 14 someone's 15 Japan is 13. so you
0:14:38 know how you measure it well it's when
0:14:39 the when the child is or when the person
0:14:41 becomes adolescent okay physically
0:14:44 mature yeah we agree so yeah
0:14:46 so we follow yeah so he married ashraz
0:14:50 which was an adult yeah yes
0:14:53 how do we know she's an adult how can
0:14:56 you prove that she's an adult
0:14:58 and you have a plethora of evidence
0:14:59 what's the evidence I mean the
0:15:02 leadership right okay so you're saying
0:15:04 you know she has to be an adult
0:15:06 for anyone to get married or type
0:15:08 intercourse with someone of the sex in
0:15:10 Islam they can't be any harm that
0:15:12 schools between partners so are you
0:15:13 saying there was harm between them yeah
0:15:15 100 imagine if you have a nine-year-old
0:15:18 daughter and you know she was engaging
0:15:20 in sex you're telling me Oh there's a
0:15:22 fallacy of presentism here so you know
0:15:25 yeah I asked the same question again so
0:15:27 how can you prove that there was harm in
0:15:29 this marriage I can prove it by saying
0:15:31 that if any nine-year-old today year
0:15:33 five are you saying today right yes
0:15:35 we're not talking about today
0:15:36 assumption okay
0:15:38 you're not allowed to do this now no but
0:15:41 it's not based on the age the specific
0:15:43 age
0:15:44 it's based on the harm okay beautiful
0:15:47 okay see this is good you see this is
0:15:48 the kind of question you're gonna get
0:15:49 isn't that true Ali this is the kind of
0:15:51 crew you've done this a lot this one
0:15:52 right
0:15:54 you're gonna get worse but this one
0:15:56 they're gonna come swinging because they
0:15:57 think they got they got the golden
0:15:58 bullet they're going to come straight
0:16:00 for it
0:16:01 and they're going to be rude they're
0:16:03 going to cut you off
0:16:04 and this across the board however
0:16:07 whatever their level this is their this
0:16:09 is their what they believe is the golden
0:16:10 bullet for them all right
0:16:12 I think we get it you ask them a
0:16:14 question get them to answer the question
0:16:16 move on to the next thing ask them
0:16:18 question again what kind of harm is it
0:16:20 what kind of get them to get them pushed
0:16:21 toward the more you push the burden of
0:16:23 proof on them and ask them uh get them
0:16:25 to answer questions the more you're in
0:16:26 charge
0:16:27 by speaking a lot it actually shows you
0:16:29 anxious
0:16:32 if you speak a lot you're speaking a lot
0:16:33 especially with this kind of thing yeah
0:16:36 you're not in control
0:16:38 someone who speaks a lot is anxious
0:16:43 okay now today we're going to ask what
0:16:46 is a child's question I guess we ended
0:16:49 with it
0:16:50 and this is in a book called The
0:16:51 Disappearance of childhood I'm going to
0:16:53 read uh this out in fact uh has anyone
0:16:56 got this in front of them maybe someone
0:16:57 else should read them out
0:16:59 how do I find where is it have you got
0:17:02 the have you got the slides is it in the
0:17:04 group yeah which
0:17:08 see
0:17:11 in an oral World there is not much of a
0:17:13 concept of an adult and therefore even
0:17:15 less of a child and that is why in all
0:17:18 sources one finds that in the middle
0:17:19 middle ages childhood ended at age seven
0:17:22 Why seven because this is the age at
0:17:24 which children have command over speech
0:17:26 they can say and understand what adults
0:17:28 can say and understand they are able to
0:17:30 know all the secrets of the tongue which
0:17:32 are the only secrets that they need to
0:17:33 know and this helps us to explain why
0:17:35 the Catholic Church designated H7 as the
0:17:38 age at which one was assumed to know the
0:17:41 difference between right and wrong the
0:17:43 Age of Reason the right and wrong and
0:17:45 the Age of Reason it also helps us to
0:17:46 explain why until the 7th 17th century
0:17:49 the word used to denote to young males
0:17:52 could refer to Men of 30 40 or 50 for
0:17:56 there was no word in French German or
0:17:59 English for a young male between the
0:18:00 ages of 7 and 16. the word child Express
0:18:04 expressed kinship not an age but most of
0:18:08 all the oralism of Middle Ages helps us
0:18:12 explain why there were no primary
0:18:16 primary schools primaries it should be
0:18:18 primary schools okay that's all I can
0:18:20 see so let me continue yeah so for where
0:18:23 biology determines communication
0:18:25 competence there is no need for such
0:18:27 schools
0:18:28 the medieval way of learning is the way
0:18:31 of the oralist it occurs essentially
0:18:34 through apprenticeship and service what
0:18:36 we would call on-the-job training such
0:18:38 schools has existed were characterized
0:18:41 by a lack of gradation in the curricula
0:18:44 according to the difficulty of the
0:18:45 subject matter
0:18:47 the symbol's annuity with which subjects
0:18:49 were taught the mixing of the ages and
0:18:51 the liberty of the pupils if a medieval
0:18:54 child got to school he would have begun
0:18:56 as late as age 10 probably later he
0:18:59 would have lived on his own lodgings in
0:19:02 the town far from his family would have
0:19:04 been common for him to find his class
0:19:07 adults of all ages and he would be
0:19:09 perceived and he would not have
0:19:10 perceived himself as different from them
0:19:13 he certainly would not have found any
0:19:15 correspondence between the ages of
0:19:16 students and what they studied
0:19:19 I think this is very powerful actually
0:19:21 quotation can
0:19:24 we take a break for about five minutes
0:19:25 you talk to the person next to your
0:19:27 about this quotation take two or three
0:19:28 bullet points and they will present
0:19:30 exactly what uh Postman is trying to say
0:19:32 here in this uh in this quotation yeah
0:19:34 we'll have a quick break
0:19:37 okay well let's quickly some just read
0:19:40 something and uh I had a lot in there so
0:19:43 let's quickly summarize some of the
0:19:44 points uh in this what are some of the
0:19:47 points which you have
0:19:49 come out in that in that particular
0:19:51 quotation sure but basically they're um
0:19:53 they're defining it as a
0:19:56 as when uh the uh the child when they
0:20:01 their childhood is over once they get
0:20:03 command of a speech so they can
0:20:05 understand what's uh What uh you know
0:20:08 what's going on around them also that
0:20:11 they can Define they they have
0:20:13 capability to understand reason uh the
0:20:16 right and wrong
0:20:18 so that's another factor that they're
0:20:20 using what about that particular
0:20:22 quotation uh Tarak would you say is um
0:20:26 what institution did they reference
0:20:30 and
0:20:31 why is it important it's the Catholic
0:20:34 Church okay that's one institution yeah
0:20:36 they referenced the Catholic church and
0:20:39 uh their particular definition is the
0:20:41 age of seven okay how could we use that
0:20:44 for example well we we can throw it back
0:20:47 at that because they're questioning our
0:20:49 values and we can just say that your
0:20:51 main uh you know numeric main body of
0:20:55 Christians is the Catholics and this is
0:20:57 their definition which is lower than our
0:20:58 definition yeah technically it's a
0:21:01 really good point in that quotation as
0:21:02 well there's reference to schools we
0:21:04 need to think about this together right
0:21:05 so it says this
0:21:07 the word child expressed kinship
0:21:10 knowledge
0:21:11 but most of all the oralism of the
0:21:14 Middle Ages helps us explain why there
0:21:16 is no primary schools
0:21:18 for where biology determines
0:21:19 communication competence there is no
0:21:21 need for such schools
0:21:24 the medieval way of learning is the way
0:21:27 of the oralists it occurs essentially
0:21:30 through apprenticeship and service what
0:21:32 we would call on-the-job training
0:21:35 such schools as existed were
0:21:38 characterized by a lack of gradation in
0:21:40 the curricula according to the
0:21:43 difficulty of the subject matter the
0:21:45 symbol to annuity with which subjects
0:21:48 were taught and the mixing of Ages and
0:21:51 the liberty of the pupils if a medieval
0:21:54 if a medieval child goes to school
0:21:57 he would have begun as late as age 10
0:21:59 probably later
0:22:01 he would have lived on his own lodgings
0:22:03 in the town far from his family it would
0:22:06 have been common for him
0:22:08 to find his class adults of all ages and
0:22:12 he would not have perceived himself as
0:22:13 differently from them he certainly would
0:22:16 not have found any correspondence
0:22:18 between the ages of students and where
0:22:21 they studied
0:22:22 so going back and Mahdi
0:22:25 what in particular let's put let me put
0:22:28 the question very clearly
0:22:31 when we talk about the Medieval Times
0:22:34 we're talking about about a thousand
0:22:36 years worth of History here maybe from
0:22:38 about 400 to about a thousand four
0:22:40 hundred before the Renaissance
0:22:42 okay
0:22:44 what in particular would you say are the
0:22:47 main differences that we have relating
0:22:49 to schools in the medieval times
0:22:54 according to this
0:22:56 from what we have today
0:22:58 so in the medieval times it was more
0:23:00 like work based so it's not it's not
0:23:04 necessarily based on you know you're in
0:23:06 disgrade at this age it's more based on
0:23:08 capability
0:23:09 so it's like you could also related to
0:23:11 line the modern world it's all just like
0:23:12 numbers you reach this certain age and
0:23:14 you do this certain thing but hey it's
0:23:16 more based on your capability your
0:23:18 ability to cognizize and stuff okay so
0:23:21 it's not even discriminated to age it's
0:23:23 just on the ability actually okay that's
0:23:25 a good point so there's about competence
0:23:27 about ability what would you add to that
0:23:30 thought that there's uh that they in the
0:23:33 Middle Ages they they
0:23:36 the children what what sorry they would
0:23:40 be classed as adults and they could live
0:23:42 independently beautiful on their own and
0:23:45 uh they could interact as adults with
0:23:47 the with their surroundings so at this
0:23:49 point here I think it's a very important
0:23:51 Point what you just said here so look
0:23:53 how we determine what a child is
0:23:57 historically and contemporaneously
0:23:59 one of the things that we use is schools
0:24:04 and there's a there's a connotation here
0:24:07 when you think of a child you think of
0:24:08 schools I mean these two things it's
0:24:12 almost inconceivable that you can
0:24:13 imagine a primary school adult it's
0:24:15 almost like a juxtaposition or some kind
0:24:17 of oxymoron what kind of primary school
0:24:19 adult are you talking about anyone in
0:24:20 primary school is a child by definition
0:24:23 but what's being said here is something
0:24:24 which is Paradigm shifting in the sense
0:24:27 that it's telling us in history it
0:24:28 wasn't like that
0:24:30 what we consider today to be children in
0:24:32 primary schools yesterday were adults in
0:24:34 lodgings that would have had an
0:24:37 independent life that if they went to
0:24:38 schools they would have seen no
0:24:41 difference between themselves and say a
0:24:42 30 year old or a 25 year old they would
0:24:44 have considered themselves to be Co
0:24:45 equal in a sense
0:24:48 to that individual or to that particular
0:24:50 people
0:24:51 which brings us to I think a very
0:24:53 important part of this discussion
0:24:57 when we consider when the ages of
0:25:00 consent
0:25:02 changed in the world
0:25:04 because if you look at America you look
0:25:06 at the states in America
0:25:07 you look at the United Kingdom you look
0:25:09 at Canada you look at Scotland all these
0:25:12 things all these places
0:25:13 even if you look at some of the
0:25:14 colonized places like India
0:25:17 which by the way was first to change the
0:25:19 ages of consent even before the United
0:25:21 Kingdom
0:25:23 you'll find that the ages of consent
0:25:27 they changed by and large after the
0:25:30 world war
0:25:31 the first world war they is when did the
0:25:34 first World War take place
0:25:39 1914 to 1918 okay that's the first world
0:25:43 war the second world war was from 1939
0:25:45 to 1945. okay these are two probably the
0:25:50 most
0:25:50 significant historical events in the
0:25:53 20th century so everyone should know
0:25:54 these days so we're talking about 1914
0:25:57 to 1918 and in 1939 to 1945 World War
0:26:01 One
0:26:03 World War II
0:26:04 World War One
0:26:06 you had who was who was fighting coach
0:26:09 who remembers just for the trivia of it
0:26:11 who was fighting who huh
0:26:15 who who was on whose side uh one says it
0:26:18 was Germany uh
0:26:20 and Ottomans again yes the Ottoman
0:26:23 Empire yes French British
0:26:27 eventually the Russians
0:26:37 so the Ottoman Empire you mentioned it
0:26:40 when did it break up do you know
0:26:43 uh I'll joined a year 1924 yeah 1924
0:26:49 that's five years after the
0:26:51 five or six years after after World War
0:26:53 One
0:26:54 is it seven nineteen eighteen nine
0:26:57 twenty four twenty four twenty five nine
0:26:59 twenty four six so that's yeah six years
0:27:01 so we're talking about
0:27:03 that was a significant event
0:27:06 but when World War one took place
0:27:09 what did this do to the infrastructure
0:27:11 in Europe
0:27:12 they destroyed the infrastructure in
0:27:14 Europe
0:27:15 so there were new policies
0:27:17 that liberal governments or governments
0:27:20 in in Europe decided to enact
0:27:23 and some of these policies included
0:27:25 educational policies
0:27:28 don't forget first where feminism was
0:27:30 alive and well at this time
0:27:33 when did women get the vote
0:27:35 in the UK
0:27:39 um
0:27:42 in the UK 1918 I think Canada was the
0:27:44 first one of the Western countries to
0:27:46 have it it might have been 1917 and then
0:27:48 1918 the United States of America then I
0:27:51 think 1919 the United Kingdom but I can
0:27:52 double check this yeah 1917 18 19.
0:27:56 okay after this
0:27:59 by the way in the United Kingdom when
0:28:01 the women's in French and when female
0:28:04 enfranchisements took place and women
0:28:06 had the vote it wasn't all women it was
0:28:09 women until a certain age
0:28:11 women above the age of 35.
0:28:13 it was only until 1928
0:28:17 where the
0:28:20 was 18 Anova
0:28:23 1928 so that's less than 100 years ago
0:28:26 if you think about quite shocking
0:28:28 actually you know 1928 women age 18 and
0:28:31 over
0:28:32 in the same year there was something
0:28:34 called The Marriage Act
0:28:36 the same year because the campaigning of
0:28:39 the first wave feminist movement
0:28:41 in addition to the liberal government
0:28:43 because it was not called the liberal
0:28:44 Democrats at that time was called the
0:28:46 liberal party okay
0:28:48 the liberal government decided to do
0:28:51 some educational reforms
0:28:53 so two things were happening at the same
0:28:55 time you had process movements and so on
0:28:58 you had reformation and you had they
0:29:01 needed a new educational program
0:29:03 now from the extract we've just read we
0:29:05 said that childhood has always been
0:29:07 connected to matters of what
0:29:09 schooling
0:29:11 yeah schooling
0:29:13 we just read you know
0:29:16 okay so now when you extend the age of
0:29:20 two things consent and the amount of
0:29:22 time that it would take for someone to
0:29:24 finish school
0:29:25 you've redefined what it means to be a
0:29:26 child
0:29:28 hood is clearly a social construct
0:29:33 and this is what we're talking about in
0:29:34 the break when it said that what is a
0:29:36 woman has never been a question of great
0:29:38 controversy
0:29:39 in the history of the world
0:29:41 but what is the child has been
0:29:43 and it's so ironic
0:29:45 that one of them is a controversy and
0:29:47 one of them isn't
0:29:48 because childhood is something clearly
0:29:51 left to a great deal of subjectivity
0:29:54 it's not fully subjective but there is a
0:29:56 great deal of subjectivity
0:29:58 because this is a historical fact
0:30:01 when we talk about the fact that in uh
0:30:03 the Middle Ages
0:30:05 you know these particular people were
0:30:07 seen as children who or adults which
0:30:10 we'd consider today to be children and
0:30:12 today it's not that case
0:30:14 the point is at what point do we call
0:30:16 this individual
0:30:18 autonomous adult and at what point do we
0:30:20 not
0:30:23 there has to be some level if you say 16
0:30:25 it can't be just 16.
0:30:28 it could that could not be the answer
0:30:31 yeah
0:30:33 exactly France has dropped it exactly
0:30:36 so the point is is this is that
0:30:38 definitions of child have clearly
0:30:40 changed
0:30:41 and they'll be connected to childhood
0:30:43 and legal change
0:30:48 which is why you'll find if you look at
0:30:49 all these
0:30:51 law
0:30:52 pieces of law
0:30:54 you'll find that you know in Delaware in
0:30:57 Scotland in England you know the age of
0:31:00 marriage was seven and then when the
0:31:02 marriage act happened
0:31:04 it was it became 12. it was you know and
0:31:07 then we moved from 12 to 16.
0:31:10 it's 12 up until 1928 serious matter
0:31:14 Okay so
0:31:16 already now
0:31:20 there seems to be an issue
0:31:23 with definitions
0:31:26 when they come to say your Prophet
0:31:27 married a child
0:31:30 say what do you mean by a child
0:31:32 honestly what do you mean by it
0:31:34 what is a child a child is a 16 year old
0:31:37 a child is a 14 year old
0:31:39 child as well exactly
0:31:41 really
0:31:43 it's a real problem man
0:31:44 you know
0:31:53 biological realities
0:31:56 and so I've got some uh interesting
0:32:01 journals
0:32:03 from just just a gamble puberty early
0:32:06 starters language reader
0:32:08 uh it's actually nature this is the top
0:32:12 I think there's the top no yes it's
0:32:15 probably the top you know peer-reviewed
0:32:17 scientific journal this is I'm reading
0:32:19 it from it let me read it
0:32:21 for the first time in our evolutionary
0:32:22 history biological puberty in females
0:32:24 significantly proceeds rather than being
0:32:27 matched to the age of uh the age of
0:32:31 successful function
0:32:32 as an adult
0:32:34 this mismatch between the age of
0:32:36 biological and psychosocial maturation
0:32:39 constitutes a fundamental issue of
0:32:41 modern society our social structures
0:32:44 have been developed in the expectation
0:32:45 of longer childhood prolonged Education
0:32:48 and Training and later reproductive
0:32:50 competence
0:32:51 this emerging mismatch creates
0:32:54 fundamental pressures on contemporary
0:32:55 adolescence and how they live in society
0:33:02 what's she said what's she saying here
0:33:03 can you explain it to me okay
0:33:11 [Music]
0:33:13 do you want to read it again
0:33:16 what do you think is being communicated
0:33:18 basically what he's saying is that
0:33:22 um because of this you could say
0:33:24 artificial prolongation of childhood
0:33:26 that took place as you mentioned in the
0:33:27 early 20th century now you have a
0:33:29 situation where basically people are
0:33:32 beginning to get involved in
0:33:34 relationships and eventually reproducing
0:33:36 uh later than
0:33:38 um their biology would indicate because
0:33:40 they become mature they develop the um
0:33:43 the means to beautiful I think that's a
0:33:44 good summary I like that but I want you
0:33:46 to let's focus again on the wording here
0:33:48 this is very interesting
0:33:50 she's saying for the first time
0:33:53 so this is something interesting for the
0:33:55 first time in our evolutionary history
0:33:57 biological puberty in females
0:33:59 significantly proceeds
0:34:01 rather than being matched to the age of
0:34:04 a successful functioning as an adult
0:34:06 this mismatch okay
0:34:09 between the age of biological and
0:34:11 psychosocial maturation
0:34:14 so you've got two things going on this
0:34:16 biological maturation
0:34:18 and you have psychosocial maturation
0:34:22 psycho psychology social Society
0:34:25 sociology yeah
0:34:27 they're saying there's a mismatch here
0:34:29 we are elongating
0:34:31 yes we are elongating one at the expense
0:34:34 of the other for example or one is
0:34:36 happening before the other there is not
0:34:39 it's not happening in tandemic they're
0:34:42 not in sync so you're saying
0:34:43 psychologically and socially they are
0:34:48 um is taking longer for them to mature
0:34:49 compared to biologically what we're
0:34:51 saying is that Society now yeah doesn't
0:34:54 treat adults at a certain age as adults
0:34:58 okay biological adults for example the
0:35:01 expectation
0:35:02 the expectation of a 13 year old let's
0:35:07 say
0:35:08 who is more than willing or more than
0:35:11 capable let's say a 13 14 year old
0:35:13 more than capable of reproducing more
0:35:15 than capable of engaging in sex more
0:35:18 than capable and enjoying it and having
0:35:20 no problem with it and all of these
0:35:21 things
0:35:22 I mean all of this thing no honestly
0:35:27 this individual
0:35:29 is
0:35:31 seen as a child
0:35:33 seen as a child see as a child in fact
0:35:36 they will be treated as such
0:35:38 this emerging mismatch she says
0:35:42 it's emerging
0:35:44 emerging mismatch
0:35:46 creates fundamental pressures
0:35:49 on contemporary adolescence and how they
0:35:51 live in society
0:35:56 this is inside this is in nature no it's
0:35:59 not a religious fundamental it's saying
0:36:01 these things atheist woman feminist
0:36:07 interestingly he said this I'm going
0:36:10 back to biological reactions are so many
0:36:12 women in Yemen at the age of nine
0:36:13 reaching the age of puberty
0:36:15 look what he called them
0:36:17 he called them women
0:36:19 this is quite interesting a chef I
0:36:22 yes
0:36:24 when did he die if anyone knows
0:36:29 204.
0:36:31 yeah that sounds about right yeah two or
0:36:33 four sounds about right so what 36 years
0:36:36 before I haven't
0:36:37 so this is third Century after Hijra
0:36:41 yeah we're talking about a thousand two
0:36:43 hundred years ago he calls these he
0:36:45 calls them women does he someone will
0:36:46 look at that and say how can you call a
0:36:48 nine-year-old woman
0:36:50 how could you not everyone was doing
0:36:51 that
0:36:53 just because today there have been some
0:36:55 changes in history and law that's 90
0:36:58 years old as old as some grandparents
0:37:01 that live in London these changes are as
0:37:03 old as people
0:37:05 living human beings that would have
0:37:07 remembered their mothers being good
0:37:10 betrothed and married and all of these
0:37:13 things are very much younger age
0:37:16 just because these changes have taken
0:37:17 place isn't it amazing how Society has
0:37:20 changed in line with that
0:37:22 is shocking
0:37:24 it is actually it to me is shocking how
0:37:27 you know a culture can emerge from
0:37:30 this is the best example of a social
0:37:32 construct I can imagine
0:37:35 they've socially constructed it
0:37:38 this is a social construct
0:37:42 and I can't imagine a social construct
0:37:44 as big as the left wing haven't said
0:37:46 anything about it well they say a few
0:37:48 things here and there but why not this
0:37:49 is a social construct
0:37:52 this is a social construct what it means
0:37:54 to be a child in the United Kingdom
0:37:56 or any other country with arbitrary
0:37:58 numbers of consent is socially
0:38:00 constructed
0:38:01 from 90 years is
0:38:04 according to what according to the
0:38:05 biological markers
0:38:07 according to the historical reality
0:38:09 according to the legalistic framework
0:38:10 when you think over all of it together
0:38:12 it's a social construct now when you
0:38:14 bring a social construct to us and say
0:38:16 you have to conform to it
0:38:21 why do we have to do that
0:38:23 this is this is really it's very odd
0:38:26 actually
0:38:31 considering also the Roman Empire the
0:38:34 average life expectancy was 35 to 40.
0:38:40 amram dropper says the following he's a
0:38:42 story
0:38:43 he says most women would have married
0:38:45 sufficiently late
0:38:47 that we would no longer consider them to
0:38:49 have been children
0:38:51 yet many women particularly in Babylonia
0:38:54 married so young
0:38:55 that today we would consider them to
0:38:57 have today we would consider them to
0:38:59 have been girls
0:39:02 not women
0:39:05 the goal of maximizing fertility in
0:39:08 particular must have lowered the age at
0:39:10 first marriage and the price of this
0:39:12 goal is early
0:39:14 we may we might say premature end of
0:39:17 girlhood for many girls adolescence was
0:39:19 not a time for fun education
0:39:21 experimentation or professional training
0:39:23 rather it was a time when
0:39:25 one was already expected to assume the
0:39:27 full responsibilities of a mature woman
0:39:29 as wife and mother
0:39:31 the thing is like it's pretty common
0:39:33 sensical here when you have a shorter
0:39:35 life expectancy
0:39:37 then you have to do what you have to do
0:39:39 quicker like if imagine
0:39:43 even in the world that we live in now
0:39:44 you go to sub-Saharan Africa Sierra
0:39:47 Leone or something country like this see
0:39:48 what is the average life expectancy 65
0:39:51 or so I don't know what it is
0:39:53 is considerably lower to than a place
0:39:56 like the Aging populations like Germany
0:39:59 and Italy which is 26 percent of
0:40:01 population is over 65 years old 26 of it
0:40:05 why because whatever reason the medical
0:40:07 care because of diets because of
0:40:10 whatever reason but the point is even in
0:40:12 the world that we're living in today
0:40:13 there's significant differences between
0:40:16 average life expectancies from one
0:40:18 country to another so imagine now if
0:40:20 we're going to 500 years back a thousand
0:40:22 years back there's no such thing as a
0:40:24 hospital even for a fact
0:40:26 what do you think the average life
0:40:27 expectancy in the world would have been
0:40:29 in Sub in sub-Saharan Africa and Asia
0:40:32 and Middle East
0:40:33 a thousand years ago
0:40:36 60 70 maybe this could be a good age to
0:40:40 die maybe at that age
0:40:42 but then if that's the case if you're
0:40:43 gonna die at that kind of age
0:40:46 60 70.
0:40:48 then why are you going to get married at
0:40:49 age of 45 or 41 or the average age of
0:40:51 marriage in this country is 30 something
0:40:53 for a woman of 33 for a man it could be
0:40:55 36.
0:40:57 the average age of marriage is 33 here
0:40:59 at that time you'd be you could be a
0:41:01 grandmother and you don't have time to
0:41:03 play games like this you you might die
0:41:05 you might get some some disease you
0:41:07 might contract something you need to
0:41:09 propagate your genes
0:41:11 you need to have a progeny
0:41:13 so this is the Ridiculousness of
0:41:15 comparing two time periods
0:41:18 even on a very basic
0:41:21 Human Geography level
0:41:24 like we know that the life expectancies
0:41:25 are completely different
0:41:27 so when a woman is capable of getting
0:41:28 married she's not going to go to
0:41:29 university and get a career and people
0:41:32 have this crazy images because right now
0:41:34 if you close your eyes and I say imagine
0:41:36 a child you already imagine that you
0:41:39 know I imagine I don't imagine any child
0:41:40 I imagine a primary school that's what I
0:41:42 imagine but if you tell me imagine a
0:41:44 child I imagine some kids playing on the
0:41:46 slides in a private school so I imagine
0:41:48 the same child if you put him a Sparta
0:41:50 and Athens he already knows how to
0:41:52 destroy all of us with the weapons and
0:41:54 the swords and killing and all these
0:41:55 things because there was no time to play
0:41:57 games
0:41:58 just because we're living in an age
0:42:00 where there's times there's there's time
0:42:02 to play games
0:42:04 you can play games for 18 years okay
0:42:07 imagine
0:42:08 18 years
0:42:10 and before that that would have been the
0:42:12 child's already done huge things in
0:42:14 their life what kind of adult everything
0:42:16 not everything
0:42:19 oh that's that's the beginning of it
0:42:21 why would they always say yes think
0:42:23 about it
0:42:27 if you go to certain areas of the world
0:42:29 all you have to do is travel
0:42:32 if you go to certain areas of the world
0:42:33 you see children living completely indep
0:42:35 what we consider to be children living
0:42:37 completely independent lives we're going
0:42:40 to the Village getting the water we're
0:42:42 going there selling tissues on the
0:42:43 streets
0:42:44 the Western mindset has distorted our
0:42:47 reality
0:42:48 is a social construct
0:42:52 I was working as a teacher
0:42:56 and
0:42:59 those are eight
0:43:02 class
0:43:04 and a particular
0:43:06 young man
0:43:08 he was
0:43:11 I said to some of the teachers I said
0:43:12 this is not a 13 year old
0:43:15 and they told me off in the staff room I
0:43:17 remember this is like yesterday he said
0:43:18 please don't say that again you know
0:43:20 this you know you honestly you know it's
0:43:23 seen as disrespectful and
0:43:25 and the boy was from Nigeria now the boy
0:43:27 was from Nigeria I already know what
0:43:29 that means he's Nigeria he's got
0:43:31 Nigerian papers
0:43:34 that's the truth
0:43:36 they said listen this is they're almost
0:43:38 accusing me of racism let's just put it
0:43:40 that way almost accuse me the boy
0:43:43 broad shoulders the boy broad shoulders
0:43:47 strong jaw
0:43:48 who would walk around the playground
0:43:51 with two girls in his hands
0:43:54 year Eights yeah no problem
0:43:57 and you can see the stubble in his hit
0:43:59 like here
0:44:00 I said this I said yeah I always Pat him
0:44:04 in like in the back and say you know
0:44:05 whatever you know
0:44:11 after I left the school
0:44:13 it emerged
0:44:15 my friend will lie he said to me call me
0:44:17 he said you know that guy
0:44:19 such and such person
0:44:21 he was a 24 year old a 22 year old man
0:44:24 from Nigeria
0:44:27 he was at 20th who discovered the
0:44:28 embassy called did this this and that 22
0:44:30 years old
0:44:32 but because the social construct is so
0:44:34 strong it overrides what they saw in
0:44:38 front of them you saw a man this is a
0:44:41 man
0:44:42 oh Allah that that boy that man
0:44:46 he would probably beat up most of the
0:44:48 teachers in the school
0:44:49 and he I saw him one time having a fight
0:44:51 and he was destroying the opponent
0:44:53 throwing him on the floor I was like
0:44:55 come on man hey you know that you'll see
0:44:57 you're 22 years old this guy's 13.
0:45:01 and those kids those little boys have no
0:45:04 chance
0:45:04 you know this is the truth or lie he
0:45:09 might have been 1920. I can't remember
0:45:10 exactly his age but he was definitely
0:45:12 not Kenny an adult yeah and it was
0:45:14 discovered that he left and it was a
0:45:15 scandal
0:45:16 I even called The Guardian I said I've
0:45:18 got a story for you and oh well because
0:45:20 I thought you know I left the school
0:45:22 maybe I'll make a few bucks from this I
0:45:24 said what kind of money are you going to
0:45:26 offer me they said we can't really offer
0:45:27 you might answer I'll put the phone that
0:45:28 I said forget it
0:45:30 I said forget this man I'm not going to
0:45:32 go into the office and this and that and
0:45:34 tell you whatever but the point is this
0:45:36 the social construct is so strong that
0:45:38 you will deny the image that you see in
0:45:39 front of you
0:45:41 you'll accuse someone of racism of
0:45:43 ageism of whatever isn't but you don't
0:45:46 you see this is a human adult with
0:45:49 stubble on his face and big chest and
0:45:51 big arms looks like it's coming out of
0:45:53 the gym
0:45:55 this is ridiculous
0:45:58 this is ridiculous
0:46:00 and I don't want to go further
0:46:03 but there are I I'll go further I'll go
0:46:06 further off camera
0:46:07 then nobody you can give examples of you
0:46:10 know
0:46:11 people at the age of 14 what they look
0:46:13 like
0:46:16 you know
0:46:19 before the age of 14-13 what they look
0:46:21 like and you're telling me they're a
0:46:22 child
0:46:24 yeah I don't wear your child mate
0:46:28 with no way you're a child sorry to say
0:46:36 historical reality is extended so Mary
0:46:39 Lewis
0:46:40 she says the following about what I've
0:46:42 just said she goes no matter what period
0:46:44 we are examining childhood is more more
0:46:47 than a biological age but a series of
0:46:49 Social and cultural events and
0:46:51 experiences that make up a child's life
0:46:53 the time at which these transitions take
0:46:55 place varies from one culture to another
0:46:58 and has a bearing on the level of
0:47:00 interaction children have with their
0:47:01 environment their exposure to disease
0:47:03 and Trauma and their contribution to the
0:47:05 economic status of their family and
0:47:07 Society the Western view of childhood
0:47:09 where children do not commit violence
0:47:11 and are asexual has been challenged by
0:47:14 studies of children that show them
0:47:16 learning to use weapons or being
0:47:18 depicted in sexual poses
0:47:21 what is clear is that we cannot simply
0:47:23 transpose our view of childhood directly
0:47:25 onto the past
0:47:27 says everything we want to say really
0:47:32 and this is really all there is to be
0:47:35 said I mean it's there is a non there's
0:47:38 no argument here to be made you're not
0:47:40 necessarily your Prophet married a child
0:47:41 and say look you haven't even this you
0:47:43 haven't even decided what a child is
0:47:46 a social construct your definition is
0:47:48 that's what it is
0:47:50 you know
0:47:51 and clearly
0:47:54 our religion I would put this to them as
0:47:56 well it's a religion which is clear in
0:47:59 this Essence that doesn't allow harm
0:48:01 because one of the collide one of the
0:48:03 principles of the religion of Islam is
0:48:09 which is that harm is to be averted in
0:48:11 fact ashatobi who wrote The More faqat
0:48:14 in the 8th Century he said that
0:48:18 a principle in Islam Al-Qaeda is it is
0:48:22 more encroaching than an individual
0:48:24 piece of evidence because it includes
0:48:26 many evidences
0:48:27 so for example this principle of harm is
0:48:30 to be averted it is composed of many
0:48:33 different pieces of evidence
0:48:34 and so since this is a principle of
0:48:36 Islam the religion of Islam
0:48:38 the way that marriage is seen in the
0:48:41 religious tradition is as we started off
0:48:43 by saying in the first session
0:48:45 something which yes
0:48:48 societally we must look at what the
0:48:50 person is capable of we're not going to
0:48:52 take a child out of the primary school
0:48:54 today
0:48:56 and tell them to get married why because
0:48:58 they have not been given the training
0:48:59 that an 8th Century or 9th century eight
0:49:02 nine ten-year-old has been given they
0:49:04 have not been given the training so it's
0:49:05 unfair for them
0:49:08 and based on this principle we wouldn't
0:49:11 you know transpose
0:49:13 and these are cam on them however at the
0:49:15 same time if we're talking about the
0:49:16 morality or lack thereof or something
0:49:18 it's unfair to use our standards today
0:49:21 and transpose it on the past
0:49:23 and that is all we have to say about
0:49:25 this matter uh is there something else
0:49:28 to add here yes of course yes
0:49:31 in the Hindu religion yes the uh the
0:49:34 Krishna thing Krishna entity is
0:49:37 mentioned as marrying a girl of eight
0:49:40 years old a rook mini and this is in
0:49:43 this skanda puran
0:49:45 so it's clearly mentioned the the
0:49:48 girls age is eight years old I think
0:49:51 it's very good that you mentioned that
0:49:52 because you know it's we mentioned
0:49:53 Judaism Christianity now Hinduism as
0:49:55 well so you can we can summarize by
0:49:57 saying look this is not outlawed in any
0:49:58 major world system whether it's religion
0:50:01 or ideology
0:50:03 and all of history has seen it and only
0:50:04 because you have a social construct now
0:50:06 that you wish to Badger us with you're
0:50:08 making an argument but that's not a good
0:50:10 enough argument for us
0:50:12 they can't prove that their conceptions
0:50:14 of childhood are not socially
0:50:15 constructed they cannot prove that
0:50:18 especially when they don't have a
0:50:19 biological markup yeah the thing is the
0:50:22 same put it this way especially for the
0:50:24 the whole cultural Wars discussion and
0:50:25 the gender Wars yeah
0:50:27 if you were to ask someone from the
0:50:29 alt-right or the right wing what would
0:50:31 be the Arbiter for you
0:50:33 to answer the question
0:50:36 what is a woman
0:50:38 you'd say science
0:50:39 you'd say biology you'd say the X Y
0:50:42 chromosome
0:50:43 okay the same question what is a child
0:50:45 what is the Arbiter Society now you've
0:50:48 become left-wing all of a sudden
0:50:50 now you've become a social
0:50:51 constructionist
0:50:53 so if you're allowing it for childhood
0:50:55 why not allow for gender
0:51:00 if you're allowing it for childhood then
0:51:01 you should allow for gender
0:51:03 this is something where the left wing
0:51:04 actually has if they made the argument
0:51:05 would have very strong argument I don't
0:51:07 know why they don't make the argument
0:51:09 if someone if not Walsh came to me and I
0:51:11 was left-wing guy with a purple hair
0:51:15 and he said what is it what is a woman I
0:51:17 said what is a child
0:51:19 what is a child that's why I say a woman
0:51:21 is whatever but where's a child
0:51:24 because if you say a child is a 16 year
0:51:26 old
0:51:28 you say it's a 14-15 whatever whatever
0:51:30 age you give it you're not using science
0:51:32 here are you and if you're not saying if
0:51:35 it's not a 14 15 year old what is it
0:51:36 then give us some scientific parameters
0:51:38 the moment you get scientific parameters
0:51:39 you can have a nine-year-old child adult
0:51:41 the moment you give scientific
0:51:43 parameters it opens the door to a line
0:51:45 finished done
0:51:47 finished actually
0:51:50 and this is how the left wing should
0:51:51 actually reply
0:51:53 say the if I was a left wing guy if
0:51:57 I was uh would you structuralist or
0:51:59 social construction I was reply am I
0:52:01 saying
0:52:02 I say look
0:52:03 the same way that you determine what a
0:52:05 child is we determine what a woman is no
0:52:07 difference
0:52:10 or minimal difference
0:52:13 Society decides
0:52:14 human beings aside individual
0:52:17 Expressions societal expression
0:52:20 you see you don't like well how come you
0:52:22 can have your cake and eat at both man
0:52:23 well sure whoever is
0:52:25 how can you can have your cake and eat
0:52:26 both you can you allow some sets of
0:52:29 social constructions but you deny others
0:52:33 if you want science to be the Arbiter
0:52:35 you open the door to a nine-year-old
0:52:37 adult finished done
0:52:41 with that we're finished as well and I
0:52:44 hope you have enjoyed this session as
0:52:45 much as we have