What is Islamic psychology? With Dr Abdallah Rothman (2022-12-15) ​

0:00:04 hello everyone and welcome to blogging
0:00:06 theology today I am delighted to talk to
0:00:09 Dr Abdullah Rothman you are most welcome
0:00:11 sir
0:00:12 thank you good to be here great great to
0:00:15 have you uh Dr Abdullah Rothman is a
0:00:18 psychologist and the principal of
0:00:21 Cambridge Muslim College here in England
0:00:23 he holds a PhD in Psychology from
0:00:26 Kingston University in London
0:00:30 his clinical practice as well as his
0:00:33 academic research focus on approaching
0:00:36 counseling and Psychotherapy from within
0:00:39 an Islamic Paradigm and establishing an
0:00:43 Islamic theoretical orientation to human
0:00:46 psychology that's grounded in the
0:00:48 knowledge of the soul from an Islamic
0:00:51 tradition
0:00:52 in addition to his academic training he
0:00:55 has studied privately with a number of
0:00:57 traditional Islamic scholars throughout
0:01:00 the Muslim world so today Dr Abdullah
0:01:03 has kindly agreed to introduce us to
0:01:05 this fascinating subject of Islamic
0:01:07 psychology so could you perhaps explain
0:01:10 to us exactly what is Islamic psychology
0:01:14 sure I can I can try to encapsulate it
0:01:17 it's a it's obviously a a big topic and
0:01:20 it's something that has become a sort of
0:01:23 Hot Topic as of late in the past few
0:01:26 years where it's giving a lot of
0:01:27 attention and because of that it is
0:01:31 in some ways we can say it's a new field
0:01:34 and then other ways we can say it's a
0:01:36 very old field and
0:01:39 um there tends to be some
0:01:42 confusion and lack of clarity on people
0:01:45 understanding or agreeing on what we're
0:01:48 referring to when we say Islamic
0:01:50 psychology but I think where that stems
0:01:53 from ironically perhaps is more in the
0:01:57 word psychology than it is in the word
0:01:59 Islamic in the sense that you know uh
0:02:03 for the most part people when they think
0:02:05 of psychology we're thinking what we're
0:02:08 taught in the western Academia if you
0:02:11 were to take a course on psychology
0:02:13 you'd be
0:02:15 studying a field that sort of started in
0:02:17 the
0:02:18 18th century uh and
0:02:22 that is about the the study of the mind
0:02:25 and behavior right so it's really
0:02:28 defined as the study of mental processes
0:02:32 and behavior
0:02:34 um but I think when we put the word
0:02:36 Islamic in front of it what we're what
0:02:39 we're talking about is from the
0:02:42 ontological and epistemological
0:02:45 framework so the assumptions that we
0:02:49 that we make based on the world view
0:02:52 that the Quran posits
0:02:55 how do we understand the human being and
0:02:58 therefore how does that inform our
0:03:01 understanding of the trajectory of the
0:03:04 human being both understanding the
0:03:06 nature of a human being and the process
0:03:08 of of change and how we make sense of
0:03:11 difficulty psychological problems or
0:03:14 imbalances and so
0:03:17 what we're looking at is more I would
0:03:20 say
0:03:22 what the words psychology actually means
0:03:25 which you know the Greek it means the
0:03:27 study of the psyche and the psyche is
0:03:30 really the soul so it's the study of the
0:03:33 Soul right uh and we have from before
0:03:37 even the Western Academy has been
0:03:40 talking about and dealing with
0:03:41 psychology as a field we have had in the
0:03:43 Islamic tradition uh illness which is
0:03:47 essentially the Arabic for the same term
0:03:50 study of the Soul
0:03:53 um and so when we look at it from that
0:03:56 perspective
0:03:58 we are then understanding what is the
0:04:01 soul from an Islamic perspective yes and
0:04:04 from that perspective it is much more
0:04:07 than just mental processes and behavior
0:04:10 so I think
0:04:11 it zooms out and looks at these big big
0:04:15 Concepts like epistemology how do we
0:04:18 know what we know right how do we how do
0:04:20 we
0:04:21 um understand what we count as knowledge
0:04:24 and that has a lot to do with you know
0:04:27 then it starts to unravel on and look at
0:04:31 um the the conventional approach to
0:04:34 psychology tends to be limited to the
0:04:38 scientific Paradigm which is really
0:04:41 focused on what can be seen and measured
0:04:44 right so this is why the focus tends to
0:04:47 be on behavior and cognition because
0:04:49 these are things that are much easier to
0:04:53 understand and study and look at the
0:04:56 causes of these things from a
0:04:59 materialist perspective without really
0:05:02 taking seriously the Unseen World right
0:05:06 so recognizing knowledge that comes from
0:05:09 things that we can't understand
0:05:12 unless without
0:05:14 Revelation essentially right certainly
0:05:17 well in Islamic psychology what is the
0:05:19 human soul or where is it located you
0:05:22 mentioned the Unseen and you mentioned
0:05:24 the Western emphasis on the empirical
0:05:25 the observable the empirically testable
0:05:28 but where is it and what what does it
0:05:30 consist of if that's a a question we can
0:05:33 even address
0:05:34 yeah I can address it and it's not as
0:05:37 straightforward because like many things
0:05:39 when we deal with this thing that is
0:05:41 unseen and esoteric and and you can't
0:05:44 measure it then what we get to into the
0:05:46 world of
0:05:48 um a lot of trying to understand
0:05:50 something and from from the Islamic
0:05:53 tradition we're we're looking to the
0:05:55 Quran and the the prophetic tradition to
0:05:58 understand what we what we know or piece
0:06:03 together of the soul and so some of that
0:06:06 can remain uh ambiguous sometimes even
0:06:10 secretive and then you get a lot of
0:06:13 different
0:06:14 um different opinions or different
0:06:16 positions or maybe even
0:06:20 um disagreements from different schools
0:06:21 of thought right but I would say when
0:06:24 we're speaking of the sort of majority
0:06:26 of Scholars and the ones who have really
0:06:29 spent the most time unpacking and
0:06:32 understanding the nature of the Soul
0:06:34 for instance in the field of Islamic
0:06:37 psychology
0:06:39 um
0:06:40 al-razali is is referenced quite a lot
0:06:42 yeah and the reason for that is because
0:06:45 he did so much
0:06:47 writing on really understanding a the
0:06:52 um sort of esoteric aspects of the
0:06:54 exoteric
0:06:56 parts of the Islamic tradition of the of
0:06:59 the Deen of the religion and through
0:07:02 that then really elucidating this this
0:07:06 unseen reality or substance of the soul
0:07:09 and so what
0:07:11 um
0:07:12 but also many other Scholars even before
0:07:15 him and after him who sort of align and
0:07:18 agree with this is that the soul
0:07:22 is often referred to with these four
0:07:25 terms of nuffs
0:07:29 and often the the nuts is interpreted as
0:07:34 self some people say lower self and I'll
0:07:37 explain that in in a minute and then
0:07:40 which is often translated as spirit and
0:07:45 which is translated as intellect and
0:07:48 Kalb which is the heart and so it can
0:07:51 get rather confusing with all these
0:07:54 terms and we can start to think and what
0:07:56 we what we tend to do and this is sort
0:07:59 of you know um illustrative of why we
0:08:03 get stuck in well are we talking about
0:08:05 the Western psychology of materialism or
0:08:09 are we talking about this unseen worlds
0:08:10 we tend to
0:08:12 want to reduce things and understand
0:08:14 things in separation
0:08:16 right so we're having these elements of
0:08:19 this of the human being and we tend to
0:08:21 think of them as separate things whereas
0:08:26 what we learn from the from the Quran
0:08:29 and the scholars elucidating this is
0:08:30 that really it's one thing so
0:08:33 particularly hazali talks about these
0:08:35 four terms and he sometimes uses them
0:08:37 interchangeably right right so you'll be
0:08:40 he'll be talking about the the soul and
0:08:43 they'll be using the word and then he'll
0:08:47 um talk about a correlation to that the
0:08:50 Cub like that that what he really means
0:08:52 is the cult
0:08:53 and so it can get it can get confusing
0:08:57 but I think what what helps
0:09:00 um bring it into focus is if we try to
0:09:04 understand from the perspective of what
0:09:07 we have come to know as psychology where
0:09:09 we have this notion that we the self
0:09:13 is this independent being and we hear
0:09:16 terms like the ego and we have terms
0:09:20 um like
0:09:22 our thoughts are become who we are right
0:09:25 this is something that sort of when you
0:09:27 study psychology the assumption is
0:09:29 there's this notion that we are our
0:09:31 thoughts Consciousness is in the mind
0:09:34 um right and so
0:09:37 what an Islamic perspective does is it
0:09:41 is it includes many more elements
0:09:45 than just thinking and thought as a
0:09:48 definition of Consciousness and and
0:09:51 self-identification right and the remain
0:09:54 distinguishing feature is the concept of
0:09:59 is this
0:10:01 um you know we know that the that Allah
0:10:04 breathed into the human being
0:10:06 from his uh spirit and this is what gave
0:10:11 us
0:10:13 um life and
0:10:16 this so in the Quran
0:10:20 is referenced as something pure
0:10:23 something that is not
0:10:26 um is not uh corrupted and cannot be
0:10:30 corrupted but then when the nafs is
0:10:32 referred to even though the nuffs is
0:10:35 also something that is beautiful and has
0:10:37 uh has the ability to be elevated it
0:10:42 also is something that can be corrupted
0:10:46 and then the Cub is this aspect of the
0:10:50 heart where is the center of the human
0:10:52 being this is this is what I think
0:10:55 potentially is fundamentally different
0:10:57 than a western notion of psychology is
0:11:01 that we understand that the the Cub the
0:11:04 heart being the center of the human
0:11:07 being
0:11:08 means that the in intellect and the
0:11:11 thinking is an aspect of the human being
0:11:14 but it's not the primary uh heart of the
0:11:18 Consciousness or identity of the human
0:11:20 being that's one of the things I found
0:11:22 in talking to non-muslims westerners
0:11:25 about uh the Islamic understanding of
0:11:27 the heart and many traditional societies
0:11:29 use similar kinds of language that the
0:11:31 heart uh can be blinded uh or the hearts
0:11:35 can understand and they say what is this
0:11:37 what is this language what is language
0:11:39 the heart is is just a physical organ
0:11:41 that pumps blood around our bodies and
0:11:44 and there's this very materialist
0:11:46 understanding of of what we are as a
0:11:50 species and I'm just reminded of a quote
0:11:52 from the Quran here uh have these people
0:11:54 not travel through the land with hearts
0:11:56 to understand and ears to hear it is not
0:11:59 people's eyes that are blind but their
0:12:02 hearts within their breasts so the heart
0:12:05 is not just almost like a cognitive of
0:12:08 Faculty as a spiritual organ but also
0:12:11 has a location uh interestingly within
0:12:13 their breasts presumably within the uh
0:12:15 to be very physical for a second so it's
0:12:19 similar to the heart but not the same as
0:12:21 the heart located in the same area but
0:12:23 it has a much more elevated spiritual
0:12:26 function in the mere physical organ that
0:12:29 in the west we just tend to assume is
0:12:31 the heart
0:12:33 yes this is a really important point
0:12:36 in that
0:12:39 what what by by pointing us to the the
0:12:42 chest
0:12:43 it's locating like you said where is the
0:12:46 soul it's locating the soul or the the
0:12:50 core of the human being
0:12:51 and its ability to perceive in a
0:12:55 physical location in the body and so
0:12:58 it's a really different notion of
0:13:02 psychology being sort of this only
0:13:04 mental processes where the body is sort
0:13:07 of just a casing for the soul
0:13:10 and we often think of ourselves as uh
0:13:12 it's almost like we we operate as these
0:13:15 from the head up you know and the the
0:13:17 rest of our body is is relatively in
0:13:21 um
0:13:22 uh
0:13:23 disconnected from our sense of self and
0:13:26 what this is doing is when it when when
0:13:28 the Quran is referencing in their chest
0:13:32 do they not have hearts with which they
0:13:34 perceive the the term used is is yaki
0:13:37 Luna and so this is of
0:13:40 a form of akko the Arabic word AKO and
0:13:44 so when we use we talk about
0:13:45 intelligence or intellect
0:13:48 and we do have rational thought and we
0:13:51 do have logic and that is in in ways
0:13:55 connected to our our mental capacity in
0:13:58 in the brain but then we also have it's
0:14:02 not one or the other it's in addition to
0:14:04 we have the ability to see things as
0:14:07 they are so whereas our logic is sort of
0:14:11 deducing Based on data and trying to
0:14:13 understand something from a removed
0:14:16 place of can I try to put together based
0:14:20 on this data to come up with a an answer
0:14:24 versus where when we're talking about
0:14:28 when the Quran is referencing do they
0:14:29 not see with their heart it is this
0:14:32 ability to actually perceive what is
0:14:35 and almost in this Shahid like as a
0:14:39 witness to what is rather than as a
0:14:41 thinking or cognitive deducing of
0:14:44 possibility yes and that that that
0:14:48 actually is something that
0:14:50 has a physical location and it is
0:14:53 connected to the uh to the organ of the
0:14:57 heart
0:14:57 right so and this is the I think the
0:14:59 beautiful thing is that the Islamic
0:15:02 Paradigm is so much within this realm of
0:15:06 tawheed right so the notion of Oneness
0:15:09 is pervades the theological framework
0:15:13 that Islam posits and so everything from
0:15:17 that perspective is interconnected and
0:15:20 so we don't make a separation between
0:15:22 Body and Soul
0:15:24 and so when we so something I like that
0:15:28 I think makes the most sense when we try
0:15:30 to make sense of this mind-body problem
0:15:33 right that that is often talked about in
0:15:35 in philosophy
0:15:37 uh Mula sadra
0:15:40 said that the the soul is a dense
0:15:44 manifestation sorry that the body is a
0:15:48 dense manifestation of the soul in this
0:15:50 worldly Dimension right
0:15:53 and so what it does is it doesn't see it
0:15:55 as just a casing for the soul rather but
0:15:58 rather it
0:15:59 um recognizes that in order to engage
0:16:02 the soul
0:16:03 and in order to open to this
0:16:08 seeing with the heart
0:16:10 one must
0:16:12 be embodied
0:16:14 um
0:16:15 and and this this strikes me as going
0:16:18 against a central tenant or kind of the
0:16:20 western tradition uh stemming perhaps
0:16:22 some descar the famous French
0:16:24 philosopher uh back in the 16th century
0:16:26 the idea that that uh the separation
0:16:29 between the mind and the body you know I
0:16:31 think therefore I am you know I am I am
0:16:33 just this cerebral mental uh awareness
0:16:37 rather than a more holistic
0:16:38 understanding of a mind and the body
0:16:40 together uh with with the heart uh as
0:16:44 having
0:16:44 um an emotional cognitive awareness as
0:16:47 well and and this kind of uh you know
0:16:49 the body is just like a machine animals
0:16:51 are just machines they're not for
0:16:53 Descartes they were not even sentient
0:16:54 beings
0:16:56 um that led to a great arguably a great
0:16:58 degradation or an impoverishment of our
0:17:01 understanding of the world and this is
0:17:03 something that
0:17:04 um Islam and it's not just Muslims other
0:17:07 people have been pushing back against
0:17:08 this
0:17:09 um mechanistic understanding of the
0:17:11 human beings as well
0:17:13 yeah and and
0:17:16 when we
0:17:17 when we look deeper into instead of I
0:17:21 think therefore I am
0:17:23 that you know my thoughts Define
0:17:27 my my experience and my existence and it
0:17:31 sort of contained within that is that
0:17:34 when we look at this notion of the the
0:17:37 heart having the ability to not just
0:17:41 Define itself but to actually open to
0:17:46 truth and reality and be able to
0:17:49 perceive what is almost like having a
0:17:52 connection to a uh God Consciousness
0:17:58 right right and what that what that
0:18:01 positions us is the ability to be
0:18:03 Transcendent transcending the
0:18:06 limitations of the separate self
0:18:09 and being able to connect through the
0:18:12 the function of the heart being able to
0:18:15 perceive it what is it perceiving
0:18:17 if it's seeing things as it they are
0:18:20 then the perception is seeing that not
0:18:23 only that God is one
0:18:26 but that we as human beings are Servants
0:18:29 of God or slaves of God and so that
0:18:32 fundamental
0:18:34 um uh Consciousness that we have the
0:18:36 ability to uncover to puts us in right
0:18:40 balance with the the definition of our
0:18:43 existence
0:18:45 sorry the quran's understanding of fitra
0:18:48 it's there in the Hadith as well that
0:18:49 there are very nature our human
0:18:51 condition is orientated to to God to
0:18:54 truth to Justice and so on it's not just
0:18:57 a top of the Rose a blank slate which
0:18:59 again has been a very popular
0:19:01 post-enlightenment Western idea that we
0:19:03 bring we don't bring anything into the
0:19:05 world we're just written upon by our
0:19:07 culture our families our education and
0:19:09 that produces us but the Islamic content
0:19:11 is very different actually we are highly
0:19:13 calibrated spiritual physical beings
0:19:16 right from the get-go and and this
0:19:18 orientates us as you say to God
0:19:20 Consciousness as well yes and it's
0:19:22 what's what's really interesting is it's
0:19:25 even before from the a get-go I I think
0:19:27 and this is another fundamental
0:19:29 difference in an Islamic psychology
0:19:32 versus a western notion is that we're
0:19:35 not just taking from birth to the
0:19:37 present moment as the definition of the
0:19:40 human being's existence but we're
0:19:43 looking at prenatal and post-mortem
0:19:45 right so the the trajectory of the human
0:19:48 being actually started before this life
0:19:51 and everything that we're doing and
0:19:54 everything that we're moving towards is
0:19:55 with the Assumption and the knowledge
0:19:57 that it will continue after this life
0:19:59 and when we go to this fitra and
0:20:02 understanding our natural disposition
0:20:04 what is our natural disposition of the
0:20:07 of the rule essentially the soul that is
0:20:11 Unbound by this separate experience you
0:20:16 know this experience of separateness in
0:20:18 this world is that before we came into
0:20:20 these bodies in this Dunya we existed
0:20:24 meaning Every Soul that has ever and
0:20:27 ever will be created by God existed on
0:20:30 this plane of alest right and so in the
0:20:33 Quran it says Allah said Allah become am
0:20:37 I not your lord and all of the souls
0:20:41 answered Bella
0:20:43 certainly we we witness shahidna we you
0:20:47 know Shaheed is is very different than
0:20:51 We Believe or we cognitively recognize
0:20:54 From A Distant perspective that we're
0:20:57 believing but it is witnessing reality
0:21:01 so it's a it's a visceral experiential
0:21:03 knowing and what we're knowing is that
0:21:07 Allah is one Allah is our Lord and that
0:21:12 we are slaves of of God and so then that
0:21:17 knowledge is contained within us always
0:21:20 within the mechanism or the the aspect
0:21:23 of us
0:21:24 this this this part of ourselves that
0:21:27 cannot be
0:21:28 um corrupted but what happens is when we
0:21:31 come into this world we get veiled from
0:21:33 that witnessing
0:21:35 and we're suddenly in this separate
0:21:38 experience that's a great I like the way
0:21:40 you you just expressed that very uh very
0:21:43 dramatic
0:21:45 coming into the body is almost being
0:21:47 trapped in this Corporation yeah exactly
0:21:50 yeah and it's it's just sort of we
0:21:52 instantly go from
0:21:54 seeing seeing things as they are to
0:21:57 being being covered over right we're
0:22:00 covering over yes and so then our
0:22:02 journey is to I
0:22:06 I guess for lack of a better term to
0:22:08 come back into this witnessing to to
0:22:11 connect back with our fitra but the
0:22:13 beautiful thing here is that
0:22:15 we actually have the potential in this
0:22:17 life to to not just go back but to go
0:22:21 forward so it's not that we're just only
0:22:23 coming back into this fitra state of
0:22:26 witnessing but that we have the the
0:22:29 potential of elevating and maximizing
0:22:32 our potential and this is where we have
0:22:35 the example of the Prophet sallallahu
0:22:37 alaihi wasallam which is the perfected
0:22:40 human being that we use as the the goal
0:22:45 to emulate his character to build
0:22:47 towards uh becoming you know going from
0:22:51 what we are to what we can become I mean
0:22:55 we we find informations of this
0:22:58 um in the western tradition in Plato for
0:22:59 example what intimations of immortality
0:23:02 the sense that
0:23:03 um our existence in this world is uh
0:23:06 forgetting um we have a lively sense of
0:23:08 this in our childhood in infancy as we
0:23:11 get older we lose the sense of where we
0:23:13 have come from in our corporeal life but
0:23:17 that we will go back to it and is they
0:23:18 even there in in Western philosophy in
0:23:21 Plato although it's not these days
0:23:22 obviously a a theme that's taken
0:23:24 seriously in our materialist
0:23:27 dunya-centered perspective in the West
0:23:30 yeah yeah
0:23:31 the um yeah go ahead
0:23:35 no I was just going to ask from what you
0:23:37 mentioned Al gazali obviously who's a a
0:23:39 very famous proponent of Sufism but is
0:23:42 there a sense in what sense is is that
0:23:44 Islamic psychology the same as super
0:23:46 zoom or does it have a more
0:23:48 um we'll put a better term or scientific
0:23:50 more academically grounded theoretical
0:23:52 basis or is it just simply super zoom in
0:23:54 our modern times
0:23:56 yeah that's that's a thing that people
0:23:58 grapple with and a question that often
0:24:00 gets asked and I think
0:24:02 you know to answer it in in the way that
0:24:05 it's asked is is difficult because it
0:24:08 sort of puts
0:24:09 it it
0:24:11 is grounded in I think a
0:24:13 misunderstanding of what Sufism is and
0:24:15 then we carry forward with that
0:24:18 assumption and it is sort of a
0:24:20 reductionist notion of of what Sufism is
0:24:23 because our relationship to our
0:24:27 understanding of and the integration of
0:24:30 Sufism within the
0:24:33 ummah currently has been
0:24:36 has changed a lot in the past hundred
0:24:38 years
0:24:39 and so you know before a hundred years
0:24:42 ago or within there was no there wasn't
0:24:46 this sense that Sufism is this um is
0:24:50 this uh sort of uh un unknown strange
0:24:56 aspect of of Islam that may or may not
0:24:59 be part of Islam and you know some
0:25:00 people have this notion that it is Bida
0:25:03 it's Innovation and you know this has
0:25:06 really happened uh over time as this has
0:25:09 become hidden away and sort of taken out
0:25:12 of the mainstream experience of the
0:25:14 Muslim Community and it used to be that
0:25:18 you know the the science of to sell wolf
0:25:21 and I think this is where maybe we get
0:25:23 confused is when we say Sufism what
0:25:26 people are often talking about when they
0:25:29 reference that term is all of this uh
0:25:33 Notions of tariqah and certain Sufi
0:25:36 tarikas and what they do and their
0:25:38 practices and then their relationship to
0:25:40 a Sheikh and and that that's fine that's
0:25:43 that's one thing and a lot of that has
0:25:46 been uh cultural manifestations in
0:25:48 different places and that's really like
0:25:50 tariqa
0:25:51 but then Tessa wolf
0:25:54 is was a science it's really the science
0:25:57 of the soul the science of the inner
0:25:59 reality the hakika
0:26:01 and it is
0:26:04 it was always sort of accepted and
0:26:07 understood that you couldn't really
0:26:08 understand Fick without understanding to
0:26:11 sell wolf and you couldn't understand
0:26:13 tesaw wolf without understanding FIP and
0:26:16 the reality of that is because that the
0:26:18 Sharia the exoteric aspect of the
0:26:22 practices of Islam and the theological
0:26:24 uh uh aspects of it is not separate from
0:26:30 the hakika the inner reality
0:26:34 and that you can't have one without the
0:26:36 other and and what we tend to do and
0:26:38 this is a lot from this post maybe
0:26:41 modernity and you know maybe even being
0:26:44 influenced by this Cartesian thought and
0:26:47 the Renaissance that we start to look at
0:26:49 things in this material detached way and
0:26:52 so then we're looking at just the Sharia
0:26:54 just the outer form of things the
0:26:57 exoteric and what happens is we become
0:26:59 everything becomes sort of transactional
0:27:02 in our relationship to Islam versus we
0:27:05 miss out on the transformational aspect
0:27:07 and I think what Sufism is or what to
0:27:10 sell wolf is is that inner
0:27:12 transformational reality of
0:27:14 understanding what Allah has set out for
0:27:18 the Muslim to do
0:27:19 and all of these external behaviors that
0:27:23 were supposed to do things were supposed
0:27:25 to believe ways we're supposed to orient
0:27:27 that those are
0:27:29 um in order to evoke transformation to
0:27:33 change what is within ourselves and and
0:27:37 I think it's it's it would be very
0:27:39 difficult to think of a
0:27:42 psychology or an Islamic psychology that
0:27:45 doesn't involve the esoteric doesn't
0:27:48 involve the inner reality of things
0:27:50 because
0:27:51 by Essence that's kind of what we're
0:27:53 talking about when we're talking about
0:27:54 the study of the soul and the the
0:27:57 changing what is within oneself in that
0:27:59 journey of the Soul it is all about the
0:28:02 inner and it's all about this unseen
0:28:04 process of transformation and I think
0:28:07 that is what Sufism or tasawolf is a is
0:28:12 a legacy and a treasure Trove of of
0:28:15 wisdom practice and understanding for
0:28:19 just that uh okay inner work okay well
0:28:23 it's not a different question I I I'm a
0:28:26 bit perplexed to know what the answer
0:28:27 can be I I mean what kind of
0:28:29 contemporary Western psychology learn
0:28:32 from Islamic psychology because so far
0:28:35 you've rooted it in in explicitly
0:28:36 Islamic Islamic Paradigm you've
0:28:39 mentioned our existence before our
0:28:41 corporeal existence on Earth We're
0:28:43 bearing witness before God and after our
0:28:45 death you know what we will return to
0:28:48 God and so on so yeah does Western
0:28:51 psychology have to convert to Islam
0:28:53 basically to benefit from it or is there
0:28:56 are other aspects of it that can enrich
0:29:00 um the Contemporary Western psychology
0:29:03 how do you answer that kind of question
0:29:06 I mean maybe how I answer it would be
0:29:08 different than others because I think it
0:29:10 can be a contentious thing to to but I I
0:29:13 very very much do believe that um
0:29:17 there's quite a lot that the Western
0:29:18 psychology Western psychology can take
0:29:21 from and learn from Islam regardless of
0:29:23 whether
0:29:24 uh the a person becomes Muslim or not I
0:29:28 mean is because
0:29:32 um when from my experience as a
0:29:34 practitioner and being trained in
0:29:36 Western psychology
0:29:38 there's a lot that has been developed
0:29:41 that is really good and is really useful
0:29:43 and is in many ways really aligned with
0:29:45 an Islamic Paradigm and what you tend to
0:29:49 find is that people these techniques or
0:29:52 these uh approaches to us psychology
0:29:55 which are rooted in in a theological or
0:29:58 theoretical orientation to how we
0:30:00 understand the human being
0:30:02 is that it is almost in this black box
0:30:05 right right it only because we're only
0:30:07 dealing with
0:30:09 um from birth to right now and without
0:30:12 anything else and without the Unseen
0:30:14 sort of reality what your what you're
0:30:17 finding is that people are still coming
0:30:18 up against those questions and those
0:30:20 realities of meaning and purpose and who
0:30:23 am I really and what am I here for but
0:30:25 then also on a on a practical level
0:30:27 people tend to
0:30:30 um come up against their difficulties
0:30:33 their tribulations their psychological
0:30:35 imbalances they can open to them they
0:30:38 can unpack them they can understand them
0:30:41 and then what tends to happen is you
0:30:43 find people cycling back so what they're
0:30:46 doing more is coping rather than
0:30:48 transforming and transcending right
0:30:51 right and so what regardless of the
0:30:55 theological things there are certain
0:30:57 approaches to psychology that if people
0:31:00 experience and I have the I have direct
0:31:02 experience because I've worked with
0:31:03 non-muslims and I would say that I do
0:31:05 Islamic psychology but I don't use
0:31:07 Islamic term Arabic terms and I'm not
0:31:10 trying to get them to be Muslim I'm
0:31:12 simply dealing with the human being in a
0:31:15 way that's opening to The Heart rather
0:31:17 than just dealing with thoughts right
0:31:19 and so I'm guiding them to their chest
0:31:22 um getting them to get in touch with the
0:31:25 emotional material that exists
0:31:27 physically in this place just like when
0:31:28 we get anxiety our chest caves in you
0:31:30 know and we get constricted
0:31:33 so I'm getting them to breathe expand
0:31:36 their chest open to the emotional
0:31:38 material that's here right and then
0:31:41 trying to in the while we're uncovering
0:31:44 to these
0:31:46 um pain and and difficulty from maybe
0:31:49 past experiences we are
0:31:53 um putting in some aspects some whatever
0:31:56 makes sense to them of of connecting to
0:32:01 something Beyond themselves
0:32:04 right and and
0:32:07 um
0:32:09 finding a an uncovering to the truth to
0:32:13 be able to to to witnessing what's
0:32:16 actually at the core of what has been
0:32:20 covered up and so what happens is
0:32:23 people have their own make their own
0:32:25 sense of God or you know some people say
0:32:28 the universe or some people but most
0:32:31 people even people who say that they're
0:32:33 atheists when you speak to them at best
0:32:35 they're most usually agnostic yes
0:32:39 um and they have they they don't like
0:32:41 the way that
0:32:42 the language that has been used around
0:32:45 religion and God because they perceive
0:32:47 it as Gods like a god that is acting up
0:32:51 within its it within creation and so I
0:32:54 think
0:32:55 there's a lot of Education of just
0:32:57 understanding what God is even for
0:32:59 Muslims to be honest
0:33:00 and then the language becomes less
0:33:03 important and people are tapping into
0:33:05 actually their own sense of fitra
0:33:08 right and there's a lot that can be
0:33:10 worked with within people's own
0:33:13 experience and the way that they make
0:33:14 sense of that own experience of that
0:33:16 experience that can then shift
0:33:19 their uh their orientation to the heart
0:33:22 and to transformation and transcending
0:33:25 problems rather than just coping with
0:33:27 them fascinating now if people wanted to
0:33:30 take this further uh what resources are
0:33:32 there for us to access Maybe videos or
0:33:35 books and so on how how can we take the
0:33:37 next step to learn more about Islamic
0:33:39 psychology
0:33:40 so there is a uh there's the
0:33:42 International Association of Islamic
0:33:44 psychology uh it's islamicpsychology.org
0:33:49 and there's quite a lot of information
0:33:52 on about what is like what is Islamic
0:33:55 psychology but then there's also a page
0:33:57 on uh Publications and so there's books
0:34:00 and articles so there's plenty of
0:34:02 reading where somebody could get into uh
0:34:05 learning more uh and then also
0:34:08 we at Cambridge Muslim College we last
0:34:12 year started a diploma in Islamic
0:34:15 psychology so you can do a one-year
0:34:17 diploma and it is really unpacking from
0:34:21 the from the beginning historically
0:34:23 where uh the the the classical early
0:34:27 Scholars that contributed to the to this
0:34:29 field understanding all of the the roots
0:34:33 and Foundations from the Islamic
0:34:35 theologies taught by Scholars of epis of
0:34:38 Islamic epistemology and collab
0:34:41 and really going deep into building from
0:34:44 the ground up and understanding of an
0:34:47 indigenous approach to Islamic
0:34:49 psychology
0:34:50 uh and so and then from that we also do
0:34:53 we're starting to do more sort of public
0:34:55 facing for people that don't want to
0:34:57 dive that deep into a diploma
0:34:59 um we do we do
0:35:02 um
0:35:02 talks and then I have a lot of Articles
0:35:05 and videos uh on videos on YouTube that
0:35:09 to explain the model of the soul that
0:35:12 explain Islamic psychology that actually
0:35:14 uh couple ramadans ago I did a program
0:35:18 called Midnight moments and it's much
0:35:21 more practical for the lay person to
0:35:24 actually Implement some of these uh
0:35:27 approaches in our daily life okay I'll
0:35:30 I'll link to these I'm taking notes I'll
0:35:32 link to these in the description below
0:35:33 so people can uh investigate further I
0:35:36 mean you touch briefly on the on the
0:35:38 Cambridge Muslim College in the diploma
0:35:40 there but you actually the new principal
0:35:41 of the Cambridge Muslim College
0:35:43 alhamdulillah um how do you see the
0:35:45 future or this incredible institution uh
0:35:47 in the future what what where is it
0:35:49 going well I mean briefly what is it
0:35:51 about well what's this Horizon Dex or if
0:35:52 you like
0:35:53 um where do you see it going in the
0:35:55 future
0:35:56 so the college it's been we're in our
0:35:58 12th year and the the mission of the
0:36:03 college the purpose of it is to have an
0:36:06 institution that engages both the
0:36:09 Islamic tradition in the in the
0:36:10 traditional sense of scholar Islamic
0:36:12 scholarship and the sort of best of that
0:36:15 world that we have from our legacies of
0:36:18 from Baghdad and Syria and Damascus and
0:36:20 and really
0:36:22 um not only bringing that to Cambridge
0:36:24 this this university city that is sort
0:36:27 of
0:36:28 um this Legacy of Western Academia
0:36:31 but having the our approach to Islamic
0:36:36 Studies be integrated with an
0:36:39 understanding with contemporary issues
0:36:41 and Western Academia and so what we're
0:36:43 trying to do is really equip
0:36:45 young leaders
0:36:48 um
0:36:49 to not only understand the tradition
0:36:52 like thick and Kalam and qurans and
0:36:55 Hadith which they study but then they're
0:36:57 also understanding Western philosophy
0:36:59 and theories of Science and contemporary
0:37:02 issues and psychology and really
0:37:06 to be able to not only speak to today's
0:37:09 people but to Grapple with some of these
0:37:11 really difficult issues of our
0:37:14 contemporary time and understand that
0:37:15 the tradition
0:37:18 um is a living tradition it is something
0:37:22 that is supposed to be revived and
0:37:24 re-understood in every uh day and age
0:37:28 not that we change it but that we you
0:37:32 know what tradition you know what we
0:37:34 often would shake up the Hakeem who has
0:37:36 founded the college often says is what
0:37:39 we're doing is more traditional than the
0:37:40 traditionalists
0:37:42 in the sense that you know the the the
0:37:44 original Scholars of Islam were always
0:37:47 engaged with the Contemporary thought of
0:37:49 the time and really were able to
0:37:52 integrate it always using the Quran as
0:37:55 the as the photocon as the Criterion
0:37:59 hmm and so this is so we have programs
0:38:02 we have a ba in Islamic Studies which is
0:38:04 a three-year in-person program where
0:38:06 where the students are learning
0:38:08 traditional traditional curriculum of
0:38:10 Islamic Studies based on like what you
0:38:12 would find at al-azhar but integrated
0:38:15 with these Western academic uh uh
0:38:18 studies
0:38:20 these courses are open to the public to
0:38:22 to the not just to imams and uh people
0:38:26 that they are open to the public you
0:38:29 apply you get a ba some of our students
0:38:31 had a background in economics before or
0:38:33 they were GPS or uh and then we also so
0:38:36 that's that's a ba program it's three
0:38:39 years and then we have a one-year
0:38:40 diploma that is for imams that is for
0:38:43 people who have graduated or finished
0:38:45 their studies in like Darla Loom or
0:38:47 madrasa and then this program is more
0:38:50 focused on the the contextual studies of
0:38:53 Western intellectual thought because
0:38:55 they already have the foundation of the
0:38:57 Islamic uh sciences and then we all also
0:39:00 have a this online diploma in Islamic
0:39:03 psychology which I mentioned
0:39:05 extraordinary it's very very exciting
0:39:07 indeed I think it's the only one of its
0:39:09 kind in Britain and I'll speak to
0:39:12 someone just yesterday from Belgium
0:39:14 actually he's a a convert himself
0:39:17 um and um he said there was nothing like
0:39:20 that in Belgium at all I mean not the
0:39:21 Belgium I'm not singling out of that
0:39:23 country but it seems that it's
0:39:24 pioneering as I'm trying to say here and
0:39:27 that many other countries hopefully
0:39:29 might take um inspiration from this uh
0:39:31 and maybe adopt some of the best
0:39:33 practices of the college and this will
0:39:35 enrich an Islamic uh European or Western
0:39:39 discourse elevating it above
0:39:42 um some other kinds of discourse that we
0:39:44 see today and refining our understanding
0:39:46 of knowledge uh in a way that's not um
0:39:50 hostile it's not like rejections to the
0:39:52 West it's not just saying Haram or this
0:39:55 is but but seeing the the drawing on the
0:39:58 strengths because there are strengths in
0:39:59 the western tradition
0:40:01 and things to learn as well as things to
0:40:04 avoid as well perhaps right and it's
0:40:06 engaging in in honest authentic dialogue
0:40:09 that uh that honors both sides and that
0:40:13 really gives gives critical thought to
0:40:16 to that process of dialogue
0:40:20 okay well that's what that's well we'll
0:40:22 leave it there I I do appreciate you
0:40:24 your time uh doctor thank you very much
0:40:26 indeed I say you are the the principal
0:40:28 of the Cambridge uh Muslim College uh if
0:40:30 you don't know about it I'll link to
0:40:31 that as well do do check it out
0:40:34 um it's an incredible institution as you
0:40:36 say founded by uh Sheikh Abdul Hakeem
0:40:39 otherwise known as Tim winter of course
0:40:41 he's a an English convert to Islam uh
0:40:44 known as a great scholar at Cambridge
0:40:46 University but he has now this uh a
0:40:48 related institution in the same city of
0:40:51 Cambridge so
0:40:53 um thank you very much sir for your time
0:40:55 really appreciate it my pleasure nice to
0:40:57 be with you thank you