Age of Aisha (RA) - Part 3 | Shakir Musa (2023-01-09) ​

0:00:00 oh
0:00:05 is
0:00:09 welcome to another episode of the safest
0:00:12 Institute sugarheart Series where we
0:00:14 speak about some different things
0:00:15 pertaining to Islam contemporary issues
0:00:18 social sciences philosophy and any of
0:00:20 course related areas many of you will
0:00:22 know they will just watching the game
0:00:24 unfortunately in Morocco have now lost
0:00:26 the the semi-finals of the World Cup
0:00:28 uh and to be honest with you it's a it's
0:00:31 a time for reflection I think because um
0:00:33 obviously with everybody's I think got
0:00:36 into the World Cup Spirit watching the
0:00:37 game and all those type of things but uh
0:00:40 when that whole showcase
0:00:42 um is over which obviously has a lot of
0:00:44 the you know advertising and you know TV
0:00:47 and all this Revenue that gets
0:00:48 accumulated during this time when all
0:00:50 that comes to an end you sort of uh you
0:00:52 take a minute you sit back and then you
0:00:54 realize that the world is still going on
0:00:56 you know what I'm saying and there's all
0:00:57 these uh issues that we've been
0:00:58 discussing in these episodes which are I
0:01:00 guess relevant and important to uh the
0:01:03 ummah and the Muslims in general and so
0:01:05 today we're going to continue with uh
0:01:07 talking about those issues and focusing
0:01:10 on really a more interactive session
0:01:12 we're going to be doing some practice
0:01:14 debates and speaking amongst each other
0:01:15 and going back and forth on the topics
0:01:18 of jihad and the age of Aisha which we
0:01:21 discussed recently
0:01:23 so is there anybody that wants to give
0:01:25 basically like um
0:01:27 an effective summary if in a very short
0:01:29 way if you had to summarize in let's
0:01:31 actually do this yeah if you had to
0:01:32 summarize in one sentence say for
0:01:34 instance somebody comes up to you and
0:01:35 they say you know I heard for instance
0:01:37 that the prophet saw Allah married a
0:01:40 six-year-old girl for example and they
0:01:42 come they're interested in Islam and you
0:01:44 after having you know attended these
0:01:46 sessions and read about it and thought
0:01:47 about it seen what's going on in the
0:01:49 space if you had to in a concise way say
0:01:52 you had one sentence or even maybe two
0:01:54 in a concise way give a response to that
0:01:57 I think that would be a good exercise to
0:01:59 try and think about how you would
0:02:01 present that just as a as a short form
0:02:03 answer and then inshallah we'll get into
0:02:04 some longer form discussions and back
0:02:06 and forth practicing some of the
0:02:08 arguments that we've been discussing so
0:02:10 we'll have I guess 30 seconds to think
0:02:12 about it how you would say that and then
0:02:14 we'll come back and hear from all of the
0:02:16 participants in the room what you uh
0:02:18 what you think
0:02:21 okay so inshallah the participants have
0:02:23 had some time to uh to think about it
0:02:26 what do you think
0:02:27 yeah um well we can start by uh by
0:02:31 basically
0:02:33 commenting on on the environment within
0:02:36 the context of the Prophet himself and
0:02:39 uh you know obviously when the prophet
0:02:41 was was um was uh was giving his message
0:02:45 he had many enemies and they would make
0:02:48 many accusations against him and they
0:02:52 leveled all kinds of accusations against
0:02:55 him they called him a liar and they
0:02:57 called him a magician they called him a
0:03:00 man possessed and throughout all of this
0:03:03 no one not even his worst enemies
0:03:06 made any reference to his marriage to
0:03:09 Aisha which basically shows that you
0:03:12 know they could have leveled any
0:03:13 accusation the most heinous accusations
0:03:16 but this for even for his his enemies
0:03:19 was a non-issue
0:03:21 so we can we can start by appointing
0:03:23 that but that particular fact out yeah I
0:03:26 would say
0:03:27 um that I think this is a
0:03:32 in a sense I think
0:03:34 because when we were speaking about
0:03:36 somebody who's come and you have to kind
0:03:37 of give like a one or two sentence
0:03:39 response to the issue right
0:03:43 this is a back and forth yeah I'm not an
0:03:46 authority on this year but when I think
0:03:48 about it I think that um especially for
0:03:50 instance if you're living in the UK then
0:03:51 we have to take like context into into
0:03:53 consideration yeah because there's often
0:03:55 a lot of very like unspoken things that
0:03:58 are circulating in inside people's minds
0:04:01 that's one of the reasons why I think
0:04:02 fiction is quite important or even
0:04:04 sometimes like obviously I don't
0:04:05 necessarily condone watching a lot of TV
0:04:07 shows and things like that but
0:04:07 occasionally I try to like hey okay
0:04:10 what's the what are people watching and
0:04:12 what kind of content is coming out
0:04:14 because these are the images that will
0:04:15 influence the way people conceptualize
0:04:17 these things right so when somebody
0:04:18 hears for example like maybe they've
0:04:20 been where they've come across some
0:04:22 right-wing person on Twitter or
0:04:24 something like that who's put in a way
0:04:25 that uh the prophet assalam was uh over
0:04:27 40 years old and he's uh became married
0:04:29 or he married somebody that was nine we
0:04:32 have to take into consideration the
0:04:33 image that's immediately going to come
0:04:34 into someone's mind when they
0:04:36 conceptualize that because they've been
0:04:37 hearing about certain things in the
0:04:39 media and watching certain types of TV
0:04:40 shows and they're going to have an image
0:04:42 which is not an image that from our
0:04:45 perspective would reflect the reality
0:04:47 if we have a sentence or two to speak
0:04:49 about it and we decide to say for
0:04:51 instance that okay the environment at
0:04:53 the time was in such a way that nobody
0:04:57 had an issue with it
0:04:59 then I think in a sense we could
0:05:01 potentially be past the problem because
0:05:03 a person is going to immediately think
0:05:04 okay what this person is saying to me is
0:05:06 that everybody was doing it and
0:05:08 therefore it was okay
0:05:09 you see whereas I think that uh
0:05:13 there's a root I guess
0:05:16 feeling that comes into someone's heart
0:05:17 when they hear that which is there in
0:05:19 visualizing a primary school child being
0:05:22 with somebody that's a fully grown man
0:05:24 yeah and so that that that picture there
0:05:27 is what I think is uh potentially
0:05:29 something that has to be if you're given
0:05:31 like a one or two word response because
0:05:32 that's in a sense I think what's going
0:05:34 to put someone's sugar like to wrestle
0:05:36 with a bit of ease I don't know what you
0:05:38 guys think about it whether you would
0:05:39 agree or not but with that in mind and
0:05:42 potentially you know taking that
0:05:43 feedback into account for Khan one or
0:05:45 two sentences I come up to you as a
0:05:48 maybe a non-muslim or even a Muslim
0:05:49 maybe who's just curious and had this
0:05:50 information I say um uh I'm I'm a bit
0:05:54 troubled I've heard that you know the
0:05:56 prophet sallam that he married Aisha
0:05:58 when she was uh or even say Aisha maybe
0:05:59 Aisha or something like that when she
0:06:01 was nine years old uh what what what's
0:06:04 this is this true is this false what's
0:06:06 going on here
0:06:08 he wants to take
0:06:10 I have to go see him now you know he's
0:06:12 come with the confidence sir personally
0:06:14 I was going to say I think the point
0:06:15 that you made are very very important um
0:06:17 this is a very sensitive issue so I
0:06:19 think first of all I think the two
0:06:21 sentence answer wouldn't be uh
0:06:23 sufficient it would be a bit Reckless uh
0:06:25 so a more comprehensive other would be
0:06:27 required but if I were to give it like a
0:06:29 two sentence answer or a short answer I
0:06:31 think I would point out that
0:06:33 um we shouldn't uh focus on the age
0:06:35 itself uh just uh the age innocent maybe
0:06:41 it's a bit cliche but it is just a
0:06:42 number so what should matter is uh
0:06:45 maturity uh whether there's harm
0:06:47 involved and things like that and if you
0:06:50 take those considerations I think making
0:06:52 a case that it is immoral I think is
0:06:55 impossible
0:06:57 I would like to before yeah before ask
0:06:59 you ask me the question I would like to
0:07:00 Define me What Child Is So for you what
0:07:04 what does child
0:07:06 mean at what age does
0:07:09 somebody can become a child and stop
0:07:12 being a child
0:07:13 and when you define the yeah you what
0:07:16 kind of context you're using what kind
0:07:18 of are you using the as a universal
0:07:22 definition that goes through throughout
0:07:26 time and place so if you can Define me
0:07:29 that first and then I will
0:07:32 okay yeah so this is this is I guess
0:07:34 more in line with um the arguments that
0:07:36 we've been we've been discussing in the
0:07:38 in the past couple of weeks yeah uh
0:07:40 which we should uh potentially go into
0:07:42 in a second but
0:07:43 um I want to kind of put out this this
0:07:45 conceptual framework once again you can
0:07:47 uh you can there can be feedback on this
0:07:48 and we can we can see what we think that
0:07:51 generally speaking in terms of these
0:07:53 shovelheads you have uh two types of
0:07:55 responses yeah which you could consider
0:07:58 to be directed to two different types of
0:07:59 peoples or maybe to be suited to two
0:08:01 different types of situations yeah
0:08:03 on one hand
0:08:05 you have your more pastoral setting yeah
0:08:07 which is where you're dealing with
0:08:08 somebody who is genuinely generally has
0:08:10 maybe a show Power on this issue or
0:08:12 maybe somebody who's interested in Islam
0:08:13 and they have questions on this
0:08:15 and that in that situation I think is
0:08:17 where you have to pay more attention to
0:08:18 the Imaging to the language to the to
0:08:21 the way people are conceptualizing these
0:08:22 things in their mind yeah
0:08:24 most of what we've been doing though is
0:08:26 more on the other side which is if
0:08:28 you're dealing with the raw facts of the
0:08:30 case yeah
0:08:31 genuinely Allah this is what I believe
0:08:33 yeah in every single bab whether it's
0:08:36 Jihad whether it's something to do with
0:08:38 slavery whether it's age or Aisha
0:08:39 whether it's Arguments for existence
0:08:41 whether it's morality in every single
0:08:42 Bab
0:08:43 if the arguments are purely rational
0:08:45 purely logical what's the facts of the
0:08:48 case who's right who's wrong Islam wins
0:08:50 that wallahi if somebody has a logical
0:08:53 mind and they think in that way and they
0:08:54 just want to look at what's right what's
0:08:55 wrong who's talking who's making sense
0:08:57 who's not
0:09:00 we have no issues on this side of the
0:09:02 issue of this side of the equation yeah
0:09:03 and so we'll do that first inshallah and
0:09:05 we'll have some back and forth and we'll
0:09:07 do some some role plays it's on the
0:09:09 other side
0:09:11 those things to do with imaging and
0:09:13 dealing with context and playing and
0:09:15 dealing with people's sensibilities the
0:09:17 ways people the way people interact with
0:09:19 the information that's where all the
0:09:21 issues are that that I really think is
0:09:23 the case will lie out because when I
0:09:25 look for example and I'm I'm looking
0:09:27 online or I'm looking at people talking
0:09:28 I'm reading some of the literature and
0:09:30 stuff like that I actually become
0:09:32 shocked because I read some people who
0:09:34 are supposed to be like high high level
0:09:36 academics will lie and then you read
0:09:38 some of their other stuff and it's all
0:09:40 facts facts case arguments premises and
0:09:42 then they start writing about Islam
0:09:45 and all of a sudden that just seems to
0:09:47 go out of the window and it's it's
0:09:49 awesome
0:09:50 so that I think is something we have to
0:09:52 we have to take into account but uh
0:09:55 we'll stick with the point you mentioned
0:09:56 you raised and we'll sort of uh will
0:09:58 rehearse the arguments there's nothing
0:09:59 wrong with uh with practicing and you
0:10:01 know reminding reminders and stuff like
0:10:02 that a kid in the fight with the Quran
0:10:05 says that you know to remind when the or
0:10:07 in a situation where the reminders are
0:10:08 beneficial or they benefit
0:10:10 so you said the that the definition of
0:10:13 of child here from a logical standpoint
0:10:15 would be would be relevant why exactly
0:10:17 would that be the case
0:10:21 I mean how the definition there's no
0:10:25 specific age which
0:10:28 a society has defined child everywhere
0:10:31 in history but why are we talking about
0:10:33 children in the first instance though
0:10:36 because you were asking you basically
0:10:38 you're asking me uh you're questioning
0:10:42 the marriage of prophet sallam to Aisha
0:10:46 and you you accusing him to married
0:10:52 okay yeah but there's there's something
0:10:54 to note here right in the way I phrase
0:10:55 the question specifically yeah I haven't
0:10:57 actually used the word child yet I just
0:10:59 said that I just use the ages in it I
0:11:01 said uh six or nine right okay so
0:11:05 whether you've made the discussion about
0:11:07 children it indicates to us something
0:11:09 about the discussion which is that the
0:11:10 person when they hear the age makes the
0:11:12 assumption that the person we're
0:11:14 speaking about is a child
0:11:16 and it follows from that that okay and
0:11:18 then you have the idea that okay it's
0:11:21 wrong to uh marry a child for example
0:11:23 therefore what the person did was wrong
0:11:25 this is bad this is ETC that's the logic
0:11:28 behind it right so how are you breaking
0:11:30 that down you're saying well you are
0:11:32 effectively disputing the fact that she
0:11:34 was a child at that point yeah and on
0:11:36 what basis would you do that maybe we
0:11:37 should uh we should do some time to
0:11:39 breathe okay come on I'm assuming that
0:11:42 from your question you basically
0:11:44 assuming that like the intention of the
0:11:47 question is uh what is the prophet Mary
0:11:50 is someone at such a young age when the
0:11:53 age is defined as a childhood in this
0:11:55 country am I wrong
0:11:58 oh yeah you're asking me yeah okay if
0:12:00 I'm if I'm uh do I say uh
0:12:03 yes yes I am yes so now my question for
0:12:06 question to you is
0:12:09 can you define child
0:12:11 okay that's that's a good question now
0:12:13 if if you if you ask because also we
0:12:15 want to be able to practice anticipating
0:12:17 what the interlocutors might say yeah so
0:12:20 if you ask somebody now for example if
0:12:22 you ask someone now for example on the
0:12:24 street in London to tell you what do you
0:12:26 think a child is what do you think that
0:12:28 that person would say well they did
0:12:30 envisage a primary school or something
0:12:32 like this like a infants in in this in
0:12:36 the playground
0:12:37 okay A Child well that's what be the
0:12:40 image that would be in their heads to
0:12:42 define a child you know okay so if if so
0:12:44 we we play this out so now uh um
0:12:48 if you've got your name
0:12:54 he said he you've told him tell me what
0:12:56 a child is he says to you uh like
0:12:58 someone that's running around in a
0:13:00 primary school what's your response to
0:13:02 that
0:13:03 so my response is that has nothing to do
0:13:05 with age you can you can go to certain
0:13:07 places where uh
0:13:10 kids of individuals individuals of five
0:13:14 years old don't play with
0:13:17 toys so don't behave the same way so are
0:13:21 you gonna Define them as a child as well
0:13:24 so for instance I when I was five yeah I
0:13:27 didn't like playing with toys right as
0:13:29 much as I I saw kids of my age I find
0:13:33 them very uh
0:13:35 childish
0:13:40 yeah oh I know this image so would you
0:13:43 would you say I was a child
0:13:46 okay but what have we said uh pertaining
0:13:48 to definitions of childhood yeah what
0:13:50 have we said like
0:13:52 um how is childhood generally speaking
0:13:54 so we're talking from the UK yeah how is
0:13:57 childhood generally defined
0:13:59 within the society
0:14:05 okay at what age
0:14:07 I'm not exactly right but uh I would say
0:14:10 Primary School
0:14:12 uh
0:14:13 up into Primary School
0:14:15 for primary school right so at what age
0:14:18 in the UK is somebody considered because
0:14:20 this is this is what's most crucial what
0:14:21 age in the UK is somebody considered
0:14:23 from a legal standpoint to have the
0:14:26 ability to choose to for instance get
0:14:28 married or engage in in uh sexually with
0:14:30 any person that they want
0:14:34 to see anything
0:14:36 to 18 yeah yeah is that is that is that
0:14:40 accurate yeah
0:14:42 the um what do you call the age of
0:14:44 consent yeah 16. okay 16. yeah but the
0:14:48 age of adulthood
0:14:50 can go up to 18. depends on the
0:14:52 situation
0:14:54 in my personal opinion but okay okay
0:14:57 okay yeah that aside so now what do you
0:15:01 think
0:15:04 it shouldn't be based on age we'll get
0:15:07 to that later yeah because because I
0:15:09 honestly I don't think it's actually
0:15:10 something that has to be disputed
0:15:12 because somebody who says in 2022 London
0:15:15 that okay the age of consent in this
0:15:17 Society is 16 yeah uh it's not I don't
0:15:20 actually think it's anything that
0:15:21 anybody here has to dispute for reasons
0:15:23 that we'll go on to mention yeah alas
0:15:25 that's the point and of course uh 100
0:15:27 nobody's trying to uh get that law
0:15:29 changed or do anything yeah
0:15:32 but what a person does now is they take
0:15:35 a legalistic definition of adulthood
0:15:38 which remember we spoke about that uh
0:15:40 particularly in the early 20th century
0:15:42 for example after you had you know these
0:15:43 voting acts and the formalization of the
0:15:45 schooling system in a certain way that
0:15:47 you had this artificial prolongation of
0:15:49 adulthood that whereas for instance even
0:15:51 in this country yeah 100 200 years ago
0:15:54 people who were 12 13 14 years old were
0:15:58 would have been expected to you know
0:15:59 take on responsibilities and do those
0:16:01 type of things now because of the way
0:16:04 that the schooling system has been
0:16:05 formalized yeah and uh you know uh the
0:16:09 uh the age at which people are supposed
0:16:11 to grow up and get married continues to
0:16:12 be you know prolonged and now people are
0:16:15 getting married 23 24 maybe some people
0:16:17 are still in students 26 27 years old
0:16:19 you know and you know they might be
0:16:22 ready to uh be getting on with their
0:16:25 life uh before that you know
0:16:27 so
0:16:28 this this what we have here is a
0:16:30 legalistic definition of adulthood which
0:16:33 by the way
0:16:34 uh nobody claims really that uh the laws
0:16:38 of a country reflect any type of
0:16:40 objective morality I haven't come across
0:16:42 anybody that says that because if that's
0:16:44 the case then every single law that that
0:16:46 goes through or gets passed here whether
0:16:48 it's in a some type of whether it's in a
0:16:50 local area or whether it's it's through
0:16:52 the government like that now becomes
0:16:54 that now becomes the law or that now
0:16:56 becomes a morality sorry objectively
0:16:58 that what the government decides so so
0:17:00 the labor government comes and says
0:17:02 something and then they lose the
0:17:03 election and the next time the
0:17:04 conservative government comes and they
0:17:06 say something and that now becomes the
0:17:08 basis of for for all morality
0:17:10 objectively within the community not
0:17:12 only today yeah where like if you talk
0:17:14 to a lot of people in political
0:17:15 philosophy they'll say that there is a
0:17:16 distinction anyways there is a law
0:17:18 morality distinction that exists in a
0:17:19 lot of nation states and that's that's
0:17:21 uh that's accommodated for yeah
0:17:24 so not only you make did you make that
0:17:26 claim as if that's something today
0:17:29 but you make that claim now for all
0:17:31 situations and all times and all
0:17:33 societies throughout history into the
0:17:35 past
0:17:35 yeah
0:17:37 yeah this this is a this is quite
0:17:40 far-fetched this is quite far-fetched
0:17:42 and so if somebody wants to Define
0:17:44 adulthood in all situations all times in
0:17:47 all circumstances based on legalistic
0:17:49 definition that we have in the UK well
0:17:52 frankly why are we even taking the UK's
0:17:54 definition why do we take some other
0:17:56 country that has a much younger age or
0:17:57 another country that has a much older
0:17:59 age here in the UK for instance if you
0:18:01 go to uh universities yeah you'll find
0:18:04 1920 19 and 20 year olds drinking
0:18:06 alcohol if you go to places in America
0:18:08 where the drinking age is 21 they won't
0:18:10 be drinking alcohol
0:18:11 you can be a student in America yeah and
0:18:13 not be allowed to drink alcohol come
0:18:15 here during the summer visit a friend of
0:18:17 yours for example drink as much as you
0:18:19 want and then go back and there's no
0:18:21 problem
0:18:23 you see so this is this this is would
0:18:27 essentially be what the person will be
0:18:28 doing here yeah once again facts of the
0:18:30 case
0:18:32 how are we defining morality how are we
0:18:34 defining adulthood yeah but I I feel
0:18:36 like I'm talking a lot so I don't want
0:18:38 to give you guys everything yeah so
0:18:39 higher we've done that so we've we've
0:18:41 you've done an interrogation of the
0:18:43 conception the conceptualization of
0:18:45 adulthood that that person would have so
0:18:46 they might say okay fair enough I can
0:18:48 see you're making some some points here
0:18:50 but uh I I still consider it to be
0:18:53 highly unlikely because this is what a
0:18:55 person will say yeah as I still consider
0:18:57 it to be highly unlikely yeah highly
0:18:59 unfeasible that you're genuinely telling
0:19:01 me that somebody who was nine years old
0:19:02 was an adult how are you as a Muslim
0:19:06 defining adulthood how do you respond to
0:19:08 that
0:19:10 um
0:19:13 I I don't I'm not going to claim that
0:19:15 this is a definition of adulthood but uh
0:19:17 I'm going to say uh
0:19:19 the point where I think it doesn't
0:19:21 become immoral to marry a woman is one
0:19:24 if she's mature enough to handle the
0:19:26 challenges of marriage this is how you
0:19:28 define adulthood no I'm not uh no I'm
0:19:30 not a Define a doctor I'm saying this is
0:19:32 how I'm defining uh uh
0:19:35 this is when the point where marrying a
0:19:38 woman doesn't become immoral
0:19:40 so uh is is that okay I'm gonna Target
0:19:43 you yeah so is that for you as a Muslim
0:19:45 connected to when the person becomes an
0:19:47 adult
0:19:49 um again so yeah I think it becomes a
0:19:52 bit more uh complex what we mean by
0:19:55 adults and things that I I don't want to
0:19:57 get into the whole discussion uh this is
0:19:59 the whole discussion we need to know
0:20:00 what an adult is
0:20:02 right no no the point is no no the the
0:20:05 the topic of discussion is whether or
0:20:06 not uh the marriage of azure the prophet
0:20:09 was immoral not whether she was an adult
0:20:12 so that's a relevant point so she could
0:20:14 have been a child no no
0:20:16 no I'm not saying that uh oh yeah yeah I
0:20:19 see your point okay you you if you're uh
0:20:21 if you're categorizing people by whether
0:20:24 or not they're children or adults and
0:20:25 there's nothing between okay then I
0:20:27 would say she is an adult if that's how
0:20:29 uh
0:20:30 there's something in between childhood
0:20:32 and adulthood
0:20:34 where's the Dolphins I don't know I'm
0:20:36 not sure okay right yeah yeah it depends
0:20:39 on how you compartmentalize the thing
0:20:40 but the point I'm trying to make is uh
0:20:42 it isn't immoral one if she can handle
0:20:45 the challenges of marriage yeah physical
0:20:48 and non-physical and whether when
0:20:51 there's no harm involved in in what
0:20:55 comes after marriage physical and
0:20:57 non-physical and I don't think based on
0:20:59 those two uh issues you can argue that
0:21:01 the marriage of the Prophet is immoral
0:21:05 okay uh is anybody else wants to come I
0:21:08 think you wanted to say something here
0:21:09 no just
0:21:11 the whole issue of uh of what is a child
0:21:14 Etc when we think back right to the
0:21:16 medieval times I mean in Europe uh you
0:21:21 know they wouldn't have the same concept
0:21:23 of childhood for them uh once the child
0:21:26 uh achieved the age of reason they could
0:21:29 you know they've mastered the the
0:21:30 language they can converse properly they
0:21:33 could turn no right from wrong children
0:21:36 I mean what we would consider children
0:21:38 they'd be living on their own uh working
0:21:41 and you know they they would be
0:21:43 independent and particularly when we
0:21:46 consider back then the life expectancy
0:21:49 was 35 to 40 and you have that factor as
0:21:52 well so back then what we consider you
0:21:56 know children would be independent
0:21:58 people who would be you know working on
0:22:01 their own earning a living and the
0:22:04 markers of of maturity were different I
0:22:07 mean people would would not it wouldn't
0:22:10 be so much physical vehicle it would be
0:22:12 they would you know you could basically
0:22:15 uh yeah they they would be you know each
0:22:18 case would be separate if you see what I
0:22:21 mean I mean you could look at someone
0:22:23 physically some people are mature
0:22:25 quicker than others so you've got that
0:22:27 factor and uh you know that's that those
0:22:30 are the kind of things that that people
0:22:32 back then would have considered when
0:22:34 there wouldn't be the same as us these
0:22:37 days okay yeah so
0:22:40 um
0:22:41 we'll do this I think that the
0:22:44 information here uh historical
0:22:45 information regarding different
0:22:47 Societies in different places it's in a
0:22:50 sense it's weight in the argument has to
0:22:51 be has to be considered yeah
0:22:54 as for our purposes that historical
0:22:56 information would really only go to show
0:22:58 that
0:23:00 um you have Societies in the past yeah
0:23:02 who conceptualized and conceived of
0:23:05 adulthood in a different way to the way
0:23:06 that we conceive of it now in 21st in
0:23:08 the 21st century in the UK
0:23:10 and so somebody would have to say this
0:23:12 would have to be their claim basically
0:23:13 and this would be what they're
0:23:14 implicitly claiming that every single
0:23:16 civilization of society before today
0:23:19 yeah was incessant on uh marrying off
0:23:23 children or allowing children to get
0:23:26 married when they weren't able or
0:23:27 physically or mentally able to do so
0:23:30 which would basically be a a mass and it
0:23:34 would have I saw yesterday some people
0:23:36 talk about Epstein Scandal and things
0:23:37 like that yeah you know this would be uh
0:23:40 something of that of that magnitude that
0:23:42 throughout the whole of human history
0:23:44 this has been taking place yeah
0:23:46 but specifically now
0:23:47 getting back to the point rules as we
0:23:49 were discussing with Miles about how we
0:23:52 defining adulthood within Islam yeah and
0:23:54 I think actually you uh to refer to you
0:23:56 I think you actually bought or raised
0:23:57 something which is quite important which
0:23:59 is that
0:24:00 and I'll say this in a deliberately in a
0:24:02 deliberately provocative way but then
0:24:03 I'll qualify afterwards yeah is that in
0:24:06 Islam for instance somebody could be an
0:24:09 adult
0:24:10 and even though they're an adult it
0:24:13 would be immoral from our perspective
0:24:15 for them to get married
0:24:17 yeah so I think it's it's good that you
0:24:20 made a distinction between or like a you
0:24:22 know you could say a tough Silo some
0:24:23 type of detail that you brought on some
0:24:25 Nuance that you brought to the to the
0:24:27 discussion which is that
0:24:28 somebody becoming an adult in Islam
0:24:31 doesn't necessarily mean that that
0:24:32 person is is suitable or able to get
0:24:34 married
0:24:37 obviously you're from us from an Islamic
0:24:38 standpoint yeah we have these things
0:24:39 like you know and things like that right
0:24:42 that generally speaking for us moral
0:24:44 responsibility is attained by a person
0:24:46 at a certain point yeah that uh once you
0:24:50 have certain signs and these things and
0:24:52 there's a discussion it's a 50
0:24:53 discussion about when a person is
0:24:54 considered to become an adult but the
0:24:57 way we're using that term or from an
0:24:58 Islamic standpoint which is below is
0:25:00 that point where a person becomes
0:25:02 morally responsible with other
0:25:04 conditions satisfied from them being
0:25:06 that the person for instance has uh
0:25:09 affirm that they're able to understand
0:25:12 the the ayat and able to understand the
0:25:14 fact that you know this is good this is
0:25:15 bad these are sins these are not this
0:25:17 that this you do this there's sin there
0:25:19 is a punishment attached to it you do
0:25:21 this there's Road attached to it that
0:25:22 person has the ability to understand
0:25:24 those things and that they have grown up
0:25:26 and matured that that would from an
0:25:28 Islamic standpoint mean that a person is
0:25:30 not bad or that they have now attained
0:25:32 maturity
0:25:33 that though wouldn't necessarily mean
0:25:35 that a person is now uh 100 able to get
0:25:37 married because for instance and we
0:25:39 discussed this example previously
0:25:41 somebody who's for somebody who's
0:25:43 incredibly old and and senile for
0:25:45 example yeah
0:25:47 um where you having that type of
0:25:49 relationship with them yeah would lead
0:25:51 to an increased amount of harm yeah and
0:25:54 this is now we bring in something else
0:25:55 here to the discussion
0:25:57 somebody who is mature an adult for
0:26:01 example has more responsibility if there
0:26:03 is harm or increased harm which is
0:26:05 attached to
0:26:07 you being involved from a marriage
0:26:10 standpoint with that person then we
0:26:13 would consider it immoral for you to get
0:26:14 married to that person yeah
0:26:17 if we keep these things in mind yeah
0:26:19 that not only are we speaking about uh
0:26:21 physical uh maturity that a person is
0:26:24 physically grown but also this concept
0:26:26 of harm
0:26:28 people that understand that this is the
0:26:30 way we conceptualize the issue really
0:26:31 all of their apprehensions should cease
0:26:35 because then you understand that from an
0:26:36 Islamic standpoint yeah when we talk
0:26:38 about the prophet is yeah
0:26:42 when she was nine years old yeah that
0:26:45 those those conditions were satisfied
0:26:48 and they were in a situation and a time
0:26:51 and a place where the cultural
0:26:54 conditions or the way people were raised
0:26:55 or the ways people grew were such that
0:26:57 it was possible for her to be like that
0:26:59 at that age
0:27:01 and you have to remember once again
0:27:02 wallahi that like within the big nation
0:27:05 states that we're living in now yeah
0:27:06 well there's like 10 million people in
0:27:08 London for example yeah
0:27:10 it's actually you can actually see the
0:27:11 logic behind there being legalistic
0:27:13 definitions of this stuff
0:27:14 because in the time like if you're
0:27:16 living in Mecca for example yeah I don't
0:27:17 know how many people you have let's say
0:27:18 maximum maybe you have uh maybe five
0:27:20 thousand ten thousand people living
0:27:21 there maybe that even might be a stretch
0:27:23 because we know for example at the
0:27:24 Battle of ahazab when that was supposed
0:27:26 to be one of the biggest
0:27:27 um armies that the Arabs had assembled
0:27:29 and it was from all different places
0:27:30 there were about 10 000 people from all
0:27:32 these different tribes and men that they
0:27:33 came to march on Medina so how many
0:27:35 people living in Mecca at the time well
0:27:37 I don't know whether there's numbers on
0:27:38 this but we could consider maybe you
0:27:39 have like uh maybe even a thousand
0:27:41 people living there everybody knows
0:27:43 everyone yeah so you people know when
0:27:46 children are ready to get married and
0:27:47 they know and within Islam you have your
0:27:50 fathers involved you have the Welly his
0:27:51 responsibility is to ensure the
0:27:53 protection of his daughter when she's
0:27:55 getting married
0:27:57 and obviously her
0:27:59 father's
0:28:01 and he had he he cared about his
0:28:04 daughter he took her her concerns and
0:28:06 all these things
0:28:08 so that type of environment there where
0:28:11 for instance you don't have a fixed age
0:28:12 to say this is where somebody's allowed
0:28:14 to get married
0:28:16 you can see how that's feasible well how
0:28:18 you can see how that's feasible and you
0:28:20 understand that these are the conditions
0:28:21 that Islam put in place for somebody to
0:28:23 be able to get married hollas
0:28:25 seriously I think that solves the
0:28:27 problem
0:28:27 now you speak in the 21st century in the
0:28:30 21st century today where you have
0:28:32 massive societies yeah right so you
0:28:35 could really argue yeah honestly a
0:28:37 Muslim could really argue that for it to
0:28:39 be like free reign and lacks in that way
0:28:40 like it because there are so many people
0:28:44 and so many variables at hand that it
0:28:46 will be difficult it'll actually be
0:28:47 difficult to have it in that type of way
0:28:49 so this time they come along and say
0:28:50 okay boom 16. generally speaking most
0:28:53 people in society at the age of 16 will
0:28:56 have the maturity the ability physically
0:28:58 and otherwise to be able to make that
0:29:00 decision for themselves to give consent
0:29:01 to have sex or to get married for
0:29:03 example yeah I don't know if 16 is for
0:29:05 marriage that might be 18 I don't know
0:29:06 yeah
0:29:07 unfortunately I haven't had to look into
0:29:09 this spot in Charlotte soon enough yeah
0:29:10 but
0:29:14 so yeah so within within our society you
0:29:17 can understand the logic behind that but
0:29:19 even that's not perfect because I can
0:29:21 promise you yeah I can promise you that
0:29:23 and we will all know people like I would
0:29:25 have gone to school and stuff like that
0:29:27 in sixth form people that are 17 18
0:29:28 years old I say look if somebody gets
0:29:30 into a relationship with you you're not
0:29:32 only are you but you might be physically
0:29:34 mature but mentally you are absolutely a
0:29:36 child
0:29:37 the fact that you're here now in in
0:29:39 sixth form for example getting involved
0:29:41 in it and do it so even the even that
0:29:44 legal that legal boundary that's been
0:29:45 placed really for you could say
0:29:47 convenience or purposes because it makes
0:29:50 things easier to manage and you have a
0:29:51 hard boundary and stuff like that and
0:29:52 maybe law sometimes has to be like that
0:29:53 and that might have to be a discussion
0:29:55 that people have like with how big
0:29:56 societies are and how difficult it is to
0:29:58 to manage these things and the breakdown
0:30:00 of of uh of families and socialists and
0:30:02 you know smaller social uh you know
0:30:04 Frameworks of organization that would
0:30:06 allow people to monitor these things in
0:30:08 a in a more kind of close and in a way
0:30:11 that might have been possible in the
0:30:12 past you could make an argument for that
0:30:14 boundary
0:30:15 but it would be absolutely unjust yeah
0:30:18 this is what I'm putting forward yeah
0:30:19 it'll be absolutely unjust to take that
0:30:22 limit which as we've said has all these
0:30:24 historically contingent factors the
0:30:26 schooling system voting all these type
0:30:28 of things that have affected that
0:30:30 boundary which is placed within a
0:30:32 nation-state framework
0:30:34 as we said largely for convenience
0:30:36 purposes and to make that the mirayar or
0:30:39 the the objective like Criterion that we
0:30:42 use to judge every single other
0:30:45 civilization Society
0:30:47 and I think making the argument in this
0:30:48 way allows us to in a very kind of um
0:30:51 conclusive manner deal with both of the
0:30:53 the two aspects that we discussed before
0:30:56 which is number one the image that a
0:30:58 person has in somebody's mind with
0:31:00 putting the argument forward like this
0:31:02 it becomes conceivable in a person's
0:31:04 mind that that you could have what would
0:31:08 be considered an adult yeah with the
0:31:11 conditions that we mentioned in Islam in
0:31:13 that seventh century context that the
0:31:15 prophet assalam got married to her
0:31:17 whilst also giving somebody The Logical
0:31:20 framework that they need to be able to
0:31:22 understand the issue yeah
0:31:24 and uh there are some hadiths that are
0:31:26 worth mentioning like when I actually
0:31:28 mentions that she was in the um uh that
0:31:31 uh obviously the house of Asylum was
0:31:33 connected to his Masjid and so one day I
0:31:35 think there were some like Ethiopians
0:31:36 and they were doing like they had they
0:31:37 had come from abyssinia and they were
0:31:39 doing like some I don't know maybe some
0:31:41 gymnastics or whatever they were doing
0:31:42 in the message
0:31:44 that she came behind the prophet sallam
0:31:48 and that she was looking over his
0:31:50 shoulder at what's going on at this at
0:31:52 this point in time yeah
0:31:54 was 18 when she passed away yeah and she
0:31:56 was nine years old when she met the
0:31:57 prophet and they got married in Medina
0:32:01 so the image you have of a primary
0:32:04 school child yeah
0:32:06 sorry the person when we when when the
0:32:08 discussions about like his uh his his
0:32:10 appearance in these things so there's
0:32:12 there's a lot of
0:32:13 um a detail that's given to how the
0:32:15 processarily used to look yeah that is
0:32:18 that he was not too tall he was not too
0:32:21 short so we're not talking about
0:32:22 somebody who was necessarily short he
0:32:24 was somebody of uh you could say like
0:32:26 average stature within his community
0:32:28 within a community
0:32:30 so what how tall exactly was average
0:32:33 statue in the community
0:32:34 was not sure
0:32:36 so if I asked you to be looking over his
0:32:38 shoulder
0:32:40 hi honey you the image you have of a
0:32:42 primary school child which you're
0:32:44 imposing on a 7th Century context just
0:32:47 doesn't uh fit with the evidence that we
0:32:49 have here
0:32:50 it doesn't fit with the evidence that we
0:32:52 have about action all the things that
0:32:53 she was doing in her life and how how
0:32:55 intelligent and articulate she was like
0:32:58 uh Hadith
0:33:01 yeah why like is is like she's speaking
0:33:05 with eloquence about these things that
0:33:06 are going on that's not that's not a
0:33:08 child speaking will lie if you look at
0:33:09 the if you look at her Sila if you look
0:33:12 at the information that you have the
0:33:14 source the information that you have
0:33:16 you cannot make the conclusions
0:33:19 that uh people might make in relation to
0:33:22 this information yeah and and yeah and
0:33:25 at that point you might have to say to
0:33:27 someone yeah that like we don't condone
0:33:28 things that are happening where there's
0:33:30 there's obvious harms that are taking
0:33:31 place yeah the city has come to do away
0:33:33 with a lot of those things
0:33:35 that harm is to be taken away from these
0:33:37 things that's part of the shitty Act uh
0:33:40 as part of the shitty eyes compassion is
0:33:42 Mercy is love and all those type of
0:33:44 things but this one specifically is
0:33:46 important because it's completely wrong
0:33:47 for somebody to uh to think about the
0:33:50 prophet sallam
0:33:52 and to make conclusions that are
0:33:55 negative about him that are you know
0:33:58 based a lot on this way of looking at
0:34:00 the situation yeah is that does that uh
0:34:04 does that make sense and I went off a
0:34:05 bit only to kind of keep a bit more
0:34:07 interactive but it's a way that I think
0:34:08 uh I wanted to make the argument and
0:34:10 then of course for the majority of this
0:34:12 discussion we've been assuming that you
0:34:13 were speaking to somebody who's you know
0:34:14 just uh maybe an average dog or a person
0:34:16 who's uh growing up in the UK generally
0:34:18 speaking most people have like some type
0:34:20 of liberal incarnations particularly
0:34:21 amongst the youth and those things but
0:34:23 then we have all of the um
0:34:25 the more Nuance points that we mentioned
0:34:27 if you're speaking for instance to uh to
0:34:29 a Christian maybe or somebody who's
0:34:31 Jewish for example or some other
0:34:32 Traditions I mean you brought some
0:34:34 Source information from them some of I
0:34:36 think the Hindu texts was that right
0:34:37 yeah
0:34:37 [Music]
0:34:39 the um Krishna married um I think it was
0:34:42 a rook money or something yes when she
0:34:46 was six or seven years old that's in the
0:34:49 actual text of the um The Vedas or
0:34:52 whatever though I don't have it to hand
0:34:54 but I think I recall it was uh it was in
0:34:57 the Holy books yeah it did describe her
0:35:00 age and uh and it was merged to Krishna
0:35:04 yeah of Rook money and that's from the
0:35:07 the Hindu text yeah yeah so we have that
0:35:10 and then uh uh for Khan what did we say
0:35:12 that we uh we have from the um from a
0:35:14 Biblical standpoint
0:35:16 uh we have the book of number book
0:35:18 numbers which mentions
0:35:21 what store
0:35:23 tough yeah which means which means a
0:35:28 young child a young
0:35:31 little girls so little guys means
0:35:34 um there's the different definitions of
0:35:37 the world but generally means little
0:35:39 girls yeah right so we have those things
0:35:41 yeah and bringing that information in at
0:35:44 this point yeah it safeguards you
0:35:46 against like someone might say you're
0:35:47 doing a two-cook way if somebody comes
0:35:49 to you and they say yup the prophet
0:35:51 assalam did this yeah and the first
0:35:53 thing you say in response is well this
0:35:55 is also in the Hindu text well this is
0:35:57 also in the Bible Well I can show you ex
0:35:59 all these Societies in the in history
0:36:01 that this these things also took place
0:36:03 then what a person's understanding is
0:36:05 that effectively the Muslim position is
0:36:07 that well yeah I mean it might be a bit
0:36:09 uncomfortable yeah potentially you might
0:36:11 even you might even be implicitly
0:36:12 conceding that it's wrong but everybody
0:36:15 else did it so therefore it's okay for
0:36:16 us to do it
0:36:17 which is not the case it's not the case
0:36:20 at all because we have as I mentioned
0:36:22 all of these like you know conditions
0:36:24 and a way of understanding the Masala
0:36:26 and all those kind of things and uh I do
0:36:28 just want to finish this and wrap up on
0:36:30 this point inshallah
0:36:32 that uh it wouldn't be enough I think
0:36:34 for us to be on the back foot on this
0:36:36 issue yeah like now like we have to step
0:36:39 forward and say look we have a way of of
0:36:42 understanding adulthood and childhood
0:36:45 yeah because they show you how we
0:36:46 believe like we believe Islam yeah that
0:36:48 it's it's suitable for all situations
0:36:50 for all situations and times that Allah
0:36:53 revealed multiple Revelations from Adam
0:36:56 all the way up until uh the prophet
0:36:58 sallallahu alaihi wasallam and that
0:36:59 those they came and eventually some of
0:37:01 them were corrupted and they got taken
0:37:03 away and stuff like that and really I
0:37:04 don't think anybody seriously disputes
0:37:06 those disputes that we don't have those
0:37:08 uh Traditions as they were or as they
0:37:10 were brought forward by
0:37:11 um the prophets and Messengers that came
0:37:12 with them
0:37:13 foreign
0:37:17 as the final messenger
0:37:20 for this time from the time that he was
0:37:22 he was this Allah all the way up until
0:37:24 the end
0:37:26 and so the understanding of of this
0:37:28 understanding of adulthood yeah it
0:37:32 it's
0:37:33 it can be applied not only to that
0:37:35 seventh century context but it can also
0:37:37 be applied to the eighth the 9th the
0:37:39 10th and even up until today in the 21st
0:37:41 century with all of the nuances that you
0:37:43 might get in different cultures and
0:37:44 different situations different times
0:37:45 yeah
0:37:46 the legalistic definition that somebody
0:37:48 brings forward for adulthood today yeah
0:37:51 if they say that uh 16. 18 20. and you
0:37:56 make that the basis of your of your
0:37:58 definitions sorry maybe in 10 years time
0:38:01 honestly maybe in 10 years time that
0:38:03 becomes obsolete I mean I I don't know
0:38:05 what affects these uh phones and stuff
0:38:08 like phones TVs all these things are
0:38:10 having on uh on young people like the
0:38:12 youth yeah I say the youth I am I'm one
0:38:15 of them yeah but
0:38:18 like even even like a small difference
0:38:20 like well I've got younger siblings yeah
0:38:21 that like some of them are in like
0:38:22 primary school and stuff like that well
0:38:23 I I was not like that when I was their
0:38:25 age
0:38:26 I don't know that that might have just
0:38:28 been me I don't know yeah but the way
0:38:30 they are like it's different why it's
0:38:33 it's different I'm sorry it is just
0:38:34 different so I don't know if if 16 will
0:38:37 be uh a satisfactory thing in in 10
0:38:40 years time maybe they'll push it back to
0:38:42 18 maybe we'll push the drinking age
0:38:43 back to 21 and then people at that time
0:38:46 will be saying adulthood is a 21
0:38:48 adulthood is 25 adulthood is 28. why are
0:38:51 you Muslim so backward
0:38:54 so like when you realize that Allah like
0:38:56 it's insufficient honestly I believe
0:38:58 yeah it's for Muslim
0:39:01 to have a lack of confidence
0:39:03 in the Quran in the Sunnah and what the
0:39:05 prophet saws came with yeah
0:39:07 that's an insufficient situation to be
0:39:10 in when Allah describes the Believers in
0:39:12 uh in Surat and he says uh
0:39:18 uh
0:39:21 that they don't persist in doubt yeah
0:39:24 like we have to get to a point where you
0:39:27 know what it's not just that I have a
0:39:29 this thing might be a bit uncomfortable
0:39:30 and uh I have a way of kind of
0:39:32 explaining a way or way of kind of you
0:39:33 know brushing under the rug or not
0:39:35 dealing with it no
0:39:36 we have to try to use our use the
0:39:39 faculties that Allah has given us to be
0:39:41 able to appreciate the hikima in his
0:39:43 Sharia
0:39:45 and when that's done you realize that
0:39:47 this age of art is your issue yeah it
0:39:50 should not be an issue
0:39:52 it should not be an issue it's
0:39:53 understandable why it's an issue for the
0:39:55 reasons that we've discussed today
0:39:57 but it should not be and actually yeah
0:40:00 and really actually
0:40:02 the Islamic way of addressing this yeah
0:40:05 which is a very simple framework which
0:40:06 just takes into account look physical
0:40:07 maturity if it's harm taking place if
0:40:09 there's anything stuff like that which
0:40:11 can be applied not only to uh young
0:40:13 people but also old people
0:40:15 is there an upper bound to this age of
0:40:17 consent thing
0:40:18 sorry is it is it like I don't know well
0:40:21 I'm not a lawyer yeah I don't know like
0:40:22 is there an upper bound to this thing
0:40:24 like for instance is there anything in
0:40:26 the law that says that it's it's illegal
0:40:27 for you to marry somebody that's 110
0:40:29 years old
0:40:32 foreign
0:40:33 but for the same reasons that you don't
0:40:36 allow people are under 16 to get married
0:40:39 yeah
0:40:40 so you should you should have an upper
0:40:42 bound oh seriously we can make that case
0:40:43 why is there no upper bound to the age
0:40:45 of consent
0:40:46 do we now start calling you backward
0:40:48 people for allowing the abuse of your
0:40:50 elderly
0:40:53 you know
0:40:55 but Islam
0:40:58 Islam in every situation will lie every
0:41:01 situation and Circumstance
0:41:03 Islam in every situation and
0:41:05 Circumstance on this issue has a way of
0:41:09 dealing with it in such a simple way
0:41:11 we look at if we look at it physically
0:41:13 available is it going to lead to harm is
0:41:15 there abuse okay find a way then it
0:41:17 happens if not it doesn't happen
0:41:20 and with that you know uh I know this
0:41:22 was supposed to be a sort of a more
0:41:23 interactive session I wanted to kind of
0:41:25 uh get some model debates and I think we
0:41:27 should uh we should we should practice
0:41:28 that because um uh practicing
0:41:30 articulating some of this stuff is
0:41:32 useful uh and most of my practice until
0:41:34 now has come but I was talking to myself
0:41:36 honestly sometimes I I watch things I
0:41:38 read things and I just like I get I get
0:41:40 emotional when I'm by myself so I'll
0:41:41 just start talking and my mom will call
0:41:43 me out from upstairs she's like who are
0:41:44 you talking to downstairs I'm like but
0:41:47 um yeah with that inshallah I think it's
0:41:48 quite a it's a it's a
0:41:51 a natural uh conclusion that we've that
0:41:54 we've that we've reached I think this
0:41:55 Charlotte this should suffice uh for the
0:41:58 time being
0:42:00 um honestly well I I don't know if uh
0:42:02 when I'll next be seeing in this chair
0:42:03 it could be it could be next week it
0:42:05 could be next year could be maybe two
0:42:07 three four years from now I don't know
0:42:08 but this this is this way of uh
0:42:11 approaching the religion
0:42:12 um this is the way it has to be you know
0:42:14 uh
0:42:17 that that dignity is is for Allah it's
0:42:21 for his messenger and it's for the
0:42:22 Believers and um there are things which
0:42:25 are awkward because of where the
0:42:27 situation that we're living in but if
0:42:29 you believe this is from Allah and you
0:42:31 believe that Prophet Muhammad was sent
0:42:33 by him then it's we have to have that
0:42:37 that sense of Isa and if we have to if
0:42:40 it means you have to read and think and
0:42:42 you know do whatever you know
0:42:44 then you have to be prepared to do it
0:42:46 man you know Salman what was he prepared
0:42:49 to do to uh get to Medina to be with the
0:42:52 prophet sallam you know some of the
0:42:53 companions of the prophet sallam who uh
0:42:56 you know they've been having to leave
0:42:58 their families they're doing this but
0:42:59 they did that because they were seeking
0:43:00 that truth and so this is a this is I
0:43:04 think the the message to end on
0:43:05 inshallah and with that thank you very
0:43:07 much for watching uh we'll ask you to
0:43:09 like And subscribe and all that stuff
0:43:11 but salaam alaikum