Islamic Revival

Appearance

On this page

Salvation In Islam vs Christianity | Thought Adventure Podcast #19 (2021-11-08) ​

Description ​

Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction 0:27 - Brothers Jake and Sharif join 1:35 - Jake's experience in Morocco 4:10 - What's Salvation & how is it attained in Islam ? 9:23 - Who's accountable for their beliefs and actions ? 15:41 - Contentions against Christian concept of Salvation 20:56 - Brother Abdul Rahman joins 21:31 - What Happens to Muslims who commit Heinous Sins 27:14 - Do Muslims achieve paradise without Allah's mercy ? 29:22 - Can Non Muslims go to Paradise ? 36:11 - Salvation in Christianity 45:25 - Are there different concepts of atonement in Christianity ? 48:43 - Is Substitutionary Atonement the Standard model ? 56:36 - Christians' contention against Islamic Salvation 1:04:07 - Is Salvation in Christianity in conformity with the Old Testament ? 1:07:28 - Do all New Testament authors agree on soteriology ? 1:09:46 - Death being necessary for Salvation 1:14:21 - Brother Zekeriyya joins 1:17:25 - Otangelo (Christian): Christ's death is necessary transaction for Salvation 1:52:20 - Does God have to punish all sins ? 2:06:17 - John Fisher (Christian): Christ's sacrifice is more fitting as mercy to forgive sins 2:17:16 - Difference between Penal Substitution system and the Christianic Salvation 2:20:45 - An event being a punishment for some individuals and not for others 2:25:38 - Death only makes sense as a punishment 3:12:46 - Richard Madsen (Christian): Conflating actions of doing things commanded by God being same as being God and inconsistency of Christian concept of Salvation 3:29:37 - Aldil Iqmal (Muslim): Muslims live to prepare to go to Hell based on a Hadith 3:46:21 - Closing Statements

Thought Adventure Support â—„ PayPal - https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=6KZWK75RB23RN â—„ YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/ThoughtAdventurePodcast/join â—„ PATREON - https://www.patreon.com/thoughtadventurepodcast

Thought Adventure Social Media ◄ Twitter: https://twitter.com/T_A_Podcast​​ [@T_A_Podcast] ◄ Clubhouse https://www.clubhouse.com/club/thought-adventure-podcast ◄ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7x4UVfTz9QX8KVdEXquDUC ◄ Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/ThoughtAdventurePodcast ◄ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ThoughtAdventurePodcast​

The Hosts: ----------------------| Jake Brancatella, The Muslim Metaphysician

----------------------|

Yusuf Ponders, The Pondering Soul

----------------------|

Sharif

----------------------|

Abdulrahman

----------------------|

Admin

Riyad Gmail: hello.tapodcast@gmail.com

Summary of Salvation In Islam vs Christianity | Thought Adventure Podcast #19 ​

This summary is AI generated - there may be inaccuracies. *

00:00:00 - 01:00:00 ​

discusses the Islamic concept of salvation, as well as the possible fate of non-Muslims who attempt to enter paradise. It is explained that, while Christianity makes clear promises of salvation to those who accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, Islam does not make this same sort of clear promise. Instead, Allah only knows the intentions of individuals and makes promises based on their apparent behavior and sincerity.

**00:00:00 ** Sharif discusses salvation in Islam and Christianity. He explains that salvation in Islam is attained through the correct belief and good actions, while salvation in Christianity is attained through faith in Jesus Christ and good works.

  • **00:05:00 ** Sharif discusses the Islamic concept of salvation, which involves belief in Allah and doing good deeds in order to gain mercy from Allah. He explains that this does not mean that good actions on their own are sufficient, but that one must seek repentance (forgiveness) before Allah. Finally, Sharif gives his opinion on who is actually held responsible for their beliefs and actions.
  • **00:10:00 ** Islam teaches that people are judged on their ability to know and understand the religion, as well as their ability to put those actions in motion. There is disagreement amongst Islamic scholars on the level of responsibility a person must meet in order to be considered eligible for salvation.
  • **00:15:00 ** In this Thought Adventure podcast, the speaker discusses how Islam differs from Christianity in terms of their respective promises of salvation. He points out that, while Christianity makes clear promises of salvation to those who accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, Islam does not make this same sort of clear promise. Instead, Allah only knows the intentions of individuals and makes promises based on their apparent behavior and sincerity. In the end, both religions maintain a self-awareness that allows for continual growth and change.
  • **00:20:00 ** In Islam, repentance is possible for those who have committed a major sin, even if they have committed the unforgivable sin of shirk. If a person does not repent, they may be liable to punishment in the afterlife.
  • **00:25:00 ** , Sharif discusses the Islamic concept of salvation, as well as the possible fate of non-Muslims who attempt to enter paradise. He specifies that, by definition, those who are considered to be "non-Muslim" will end up in hell, but that there is a way for those who are deemed to be "mushriks" or "kafirs" (those who do not believe in Islam) to be saved.
  • **00:30:00 ** , Sharif addresses the question of what happens to people who have never heard of Islam, but come across it on the day of judgement. Some scholars argue that they will be tested, and if they pass, they will enter heaven. If they don't, they will enter hellfire.
  • **00:35:00 ** In the Christian religion, salvation is obtained through faith in Jesus Christ, repentance of sins, and doing good deeds. Muslims also believe in salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, but they also believe that good deeds and following the teachings of the prophet Muhammad help to gain salvation.
  • **00:40:00 ** According to Christians, death is the punishment for sin, and because of this, God needed a perfect sacrifice - in this case, Jesus Christ. Christ's death also fulfilled God's promise that sin would be punished by death.
  • **00:45:00 ** In this Thought Adventure Podcast, the presenter discusses different theories of Christ's death, including the Christus Victor model which emphasizes Christ's mercy and love. He mentions that different denominations hold to different models, but ultimately all of them agree that Christ died for our sins in a substitutionary way.
  • **00:50:00
  • Discusses the different ways that different Christians understand how one can be saved, with Catholicism emphasizing grace and works, and Protestantism emphasizing faith alone. then goes on to say that if an individual does not believe in Jesus as their personal savior, they are "done" for in terms of salvation.
  • **00:55:00
  • Discusses the issue of whether or not it is rational for an innocent person to die for the sins of all of the guilty. The presenter argues that, from an intuitive perspective, it does not make sense for a person to be punished for a crime they did not commit. God judges people justly, and does not do this arbitrarily.

01:00:00 - 02:00:00 ​

discusses the differences between salvation in Islam and Christianity. Muslims believe that everyone will be judged justly, and that there is always a chance for repentance. Christians believe that faith in God is the only way to be saved, and that animal sacrifices are not necessary for forgiveness. Both faiths place importance on the teachings of the Old Testament.

**01:00:00 ** Muslim and Christian thought leaders discuss the difference between salvation in Islam and Christianity. Muslims believe that everyone will be judged justly, and that there is always a chance for repentance. Christians believe that faith in God is the only way to be saved, and that animal sacrifices are not necessary for forgiveness. Both faiths place importance on the teachings of the Old Testament.

  • **01:05:00 ** the hosts discuss different aspects of salvation in Islam and Christianity. They mention that in Christianity, people are punished for their own sins, which means that people are not punished for the sins of others. Muslims also agree that human sacrifice is abhorrent to God, and that the sacrificial system in the Old Testament was for unintentional sins only. Finally, the hosts discuss how some New Testament authors seem to endorse a doctrine of substitutionary atonement, while Luke appears to omit aspects of this doctrine in his gospel.
  • **01:10:00 ** Brother Zack discusses the necessity of Christ's death in relation to human deliverance. He cites various theologians and scholars who disagree on whether it was necessary, and he responds to objections. He concludes that while it was possible, there may have been another way God could have done it.
  • **01:15:00 ** In Islam, shirk is the act of associating partners with God, which is considered to be unforgivable. In Christianity, repentance is seen as the key to forgiveness, and those who do not repent will suffer in hellfire.
  • **01:20:00
  • Discusses how Salvation within Christianity is not foolish, but rather based on scriptural evidence. He also mentions that there was a change in terms of how people understood salvation in the New Testament, which was not present in the Old Testament. Finally, the author asks Jake to respond to two of his points.
  • **01:25:00 ** , Abdul Rahman discusses the difference between salvation in Islam and Christianity. He points out that in Islam, all sinners are saved, regardless of their deeds. He then goes on to say that because Christianity believes in predestination, it is foolish for unbelievers to believe in it. However, Abdul Rahman argues that the gospel is reasonable and that all sins must be punished in order to have justice. Jake then asks Abdul Rahman about 1 Corinthians 1:23 which states that the gospel is foolishness to the Greeks. Abdul Rahman discusses how the gospel is foolishness to the Greeks because it is a stumbling block to them.
  • **01:30:00 ** , the presenter argues that the "sacrificial system" in the Old Testament where animals were killed did not actually remove sins, but paid for them when Christ died on the Cross.
  • **01:35:00 ** , a Christian and a Muslim discuss the difference between Christianity and Islam regarding the concept of sacrifice. The Christian argues that, in Christianity, God does not delight in sacrifices, which means that they are not necessary. The Muslim, on the other hand, argues that, in Islam, sacrifice is necessary because it is an expression of repentance. Christ, according to the Muslim, would not have come to suffer on the cross if it were not necessary for the salvation of humanity.
  • **01:40:00 ** The original people who followed the Torah were saved by repentance, animal sacrifice, and following the law. If they had believed in Jesus, their salvation would have progressed further. Christ's sacrifice was essential for all humanity, and it is not necessary anymore to follow those practices in order to be saved.
  • **01:45:00 ** the host challenges Christianity's position that it is rational to believe in salvation through obedience to the Mosaic law. The host also challenges Christianity's position that all sacrifices are necessary for salvation. Finally, the host provides an example of a Muslim who repents and is forgiven by God without any sacrifices.
  • **01:50:00 ** a Muslim and a Christian discuss repentance. The Muslim says that repentance in Islam is feeling regret for what one has done, seeking to recompense the mistake, and being sincere. The Christian says that repentance is simply saying "I'm sorry."
  • **01:55:00 ** The muslim perspective on justice is that it is based on mercy, not on punishment. They argue that the psalmist is saying that God does not care about sacrifices, and that a contrite heart is what God wants. They also point to Isaiah 53, where it is prophesied that Christ will suffer for our sins.

02:00:00 - 03:00:00 ​

discusses the concept of atonement in Christianity and Islam. The theory of atonement that Jake takes is that it is moral governance view centered around the kingship of Christ. The purpose of the sacrifice done at Calvary was to show God's hatred of sin and to provide a just punishment for Jesus Christ. Christ is worthy of taking on this punishment because he takes on the office of king of all of humanity and the of the church.

**02:00:00 ** Jake responds to Christian claims that God cannot forgive sin without sacrifice. He cites Isaiah 53, which predicts that the Messiah will be punished but still be merciful.

  • **02:05:00 ** , Jake discusses the concept of atonement in Christianity and Islam. The theory of atonement that Jake takes is that it is moral governance view centered around the kingship of Christ. The purpose of the sacrifice done at Calvary was to show God's hatred of sin and to provide a just punishment for Jesus Christ. Christ is worthy of taking on this punishment because he takes on the office of king of all of humanity and the of the church. By doing so, he removes the sin of everyone who has bound themselves onto Christ by their baptism and through participating in the sacraments themselves.
  • **02:10:00 ** the members of Thought Adventure discuss the idea of a king taking on a punishment on behalf of his people. The Islamic texts state that a king can do this, and the Christian texts state that God can ask this of Abraham. Abdul argues that because ismail is not being punished for anything, the analogy cannot lead to the justification of the punishment of an innocent king. Jake argues that the analogy does lead to the justification of the punishment of an innocent king, as it shows that God can take the life of a person for the sake of justice.
  • **02:15:00 ** Salvation in Islam and Christianity differ on the idea of substitutionary atonement. Islam holds that Christ dies for the entire nation, while Christianity believes that Christ dies for an individual or institution. Baptism, confirmation, and the sacraments of Christianity bind an individual to Christ's life, death, and resurrection. Kings can take the place of their people in Islam because they are their leader and accept the responsibility of punishments and sins.
  • **02:20:00 ** In Islam, death is not seen as a punishment for sin. In Christianity, death is seen as a punishment for sin, or as a punishment for the guilty person.
  • **02:25:00 ** Muslims believe that death is a punishment for sin. Christians believe that death is a punishment for sin, but also an opportunity for salvation.
  • **02:30:00 ** Governmental theory is a theory of atonement that does not include substitutionary atonement. John discusses this theory with Thought Adventure podcast host, John. The two discuss whether or not governmental theory can incorporate substitutionary atonement.
  • **02:35:00 ** Two main theories of atonement are the satisfaction theory and the penal substitutionary theory. The governmental view is similar to the satisfaction theory, but differs in that it does not affirm that Christ endured the precise punishment that sin deserves. The main difference between the two theories is that the penal substitutionary theory emphasizes Christ's role as both God and man, and as sinless, which makes it different from the satisfaction theory.
  • **02:40:00 ** Theist David argues that death is bad, but says it's not as bad on the Islamic paradigm because death is a creation. He also points out that martyrdom is a way of testifying to the truth of a religion and is not bad in and of itself.
  • **02:45:00 ** , John Fisher explains the difference between Jesus Christ's role as the of the church and the more general role of moral governor of the universe. He also touches on the idea of two separate offices for God, one as moral governor and another as of the church. He argues that this is not analogous to God paying himself back with his own life, as this would be two different offices with two different responsibilities.
  • **02:50:00
  • Discusses how salvation in Islam differs from Christianity, and how one event (the flood) can be applied to different groups of people in different ways. John argues that under Christianity, Isaac was innocent, but under Islam, Ishmael is still considered innocent.
  • **02:55:00 ** , an atheist argues that the idea of substitutionary atonement - where an innocent person pays for the sins of a guilty person - does not make sense from a human perspective. The atheist argues that the idea is more obvious to most humans that death is a transition from one life to the next.

03:00:00 - 03:45:00 ​

, Jake Hecht and Sharif Zakaria discuss the differences between Islam and Christianity in terms of salvation and the purpose of life. Zakaria argues that the purpose of life in Islam is to eliminate one's sins and raise one's rank in front of Allah, while Christianity teaches that the purpose of life is to find meaning in life. Hecht adds that in Christianity, purpose is not just about seeking happiness and pain, but also about finding meaning in life.

**03:00:00 ** In the thought adventure podcast, Jake and John discuss the idea that death may not be a punishment in Islam and Christianity. Jake points out that one intuition may be more far-fetched than the other, and John agrees. John then asks Jake to explain what he is saying, and Jake responds that if both Muslims and Christians find something counterintuitive, they should move on.

  • **03:05:00 ** Jake discusses the idea of substitution with Prophet Jonah. He points out that this idea is illogical, as it would punish an innocent person for no reason. He also discusses the idea of repentance and forgiveness in the context of the city of Nineveh.
  • **03:10:00 ** The Christian waiting for the Muslims to finish their discussion asks Richard to give his opinion on the topic of original sin. Richard argues that in Christian terms, the father is the one who does the job of Jesus, who was not doing the job of God.
  • **03:15:00 ** , a Christian argues that because of the Bible's claim that the father perfectly adhered to all of Yahweh's requests and demands, they are therefore claiming to be Yahweh. They go on to argue that because Jesus was an innocent man, he was able to take up all the burden of sin and be the perfect sin sacrifice, meaning that anything that god says goes against logic. They maintain that because god made up the rules, he is not bound by them and can arbitrarily change them, leading to the belief that he created us to commit sin and that he is not just.
  • **03:20:00 ** , the author discusses how Christianity and Islam differ in their views of salvation. Christianity believes that salvation is only available to those who are already saved, while Islam believes that everyone needs salvation, regardless of their status in life. According to the author, this difference is a matter of pride, as Christians falsely believe that they are inherently more deserving of salvation than those who do not believe in Christianity.
  • **03:25:00 ** Abdul Rahman asks Christians why they believe that the guilty person who knowingly commits sin should not bear the consequence of that sin. Christians reply that they have read the Bible within a specific lens and that this narrow perspective limits their understanding of the text.
  • **03:30:00
  • Discusses how Muslims view hell and how they prepare themselves for it. He also discusses how Muslims hope for salvation while still fearing it.
  • **03:35:00
  • Discusses the difference between Christianity and Islam, and how both faiths believe in seeking happiness. Islam teaches that happiness is not the ultimate goal, and that pain can sometimes be a part of life's journey in search of a higher purpose.
  • **03:40:00 ** explains that, just like with any other person, Muslims and Christians face difficulties and hardships in life, but that finding purpose and meaning in life can help navigate these challenges. He suggests that, if someone lacks meaning and purpose in life, they may become depressed.
  • **03:45:00 ** , Sharif Zakaria and Jake Hecht discuss the differences between Islam and Christianity and how each religion views the purpose of life. Zakaria points out that the purpose in Islam is to eliminate one's sins and raise one's rank in front of Allah, while Christianity teaches that the purpose of life is to find meaning in life. Hecht adds that in Christianity, purpose is not just about seeking happiness and pain, but also about finding meaning in life. Finally, they announce that their next live stream will be with Alex Malpass.

Full transcript with timestamps: CLICK TO EXPAND

0:00:07 hey0:00:28 assalamu everyone welcome back0:00:32 to the thought adventure podcast and i0:00:34 might as well say welcome back to myself0:00:37 since i haven't been here for0:00:39 quite a while0:00:41 uh what are we up to now we're on the0:00:43 19th0:00:44 episode of the podcast0:00:47 and today we're going to be discussing0:00:48 with you guys salvation in islam0:00:52 versus christianity so0:00:54 um yusuf unfortunately he's not going to0:00:57 be able to make it he's he's a bit busy0:01:00 and abdul would be joining us in a0:01:03 little while inshallah he's just uh busy0:01:06 with the kids at the moment0:01:08 so uh how are you doing sharif salaam0:01:10 well welcome salaam and welcome back0:01:13 yeah0:01:14 jake man we've uh i think everybody's0:01:16 missed you hey well maybe some people0:01:18 haven't0:01:19 yeah0:01:19 maybe some maybe some of those0:01:21 trinitarian christians0:01:24 yeah christians didn't miss me i'm back0:01:26 and uh we're coming with another topic0:01:30 related to christianity so probably0:01:32 definitely not too happy0:01:34 but um how was uh how was morocco0:01:37 yeah it was good hamdullah it's good you0:01:39 know so you went out that did the lima0:01:43 yeah happy marriage and0:01:45 yeah being with family and uh yeah0:01:48 mostly with family0:01:50 okay that was good bro0:01:52 any uh any interesting stories that you0:01:54 came across out there0:01:57 um0:01:58 0:01:59 not really not on top was it was it that0:02:03 not that guy who you met0:02:05 out there no no i didn't i didn't meet0:02:07 anybody i had a lot of people messaging0:02:09 me actually which was quite um0:02:12 you know uh good to see0:02:14 that a lot of people are watching our0:02:16 material in morocco because i went to i0:02:19 went to a couple different cities when i0:02:21 was there and i had different people0:02:23 messaging me saying oh i'm here in this0:02:25 city if you come here0:02:27 i would like to meet you and0:02:29 you know0:02:30 so it was it was nice that um0:02:33 people from the podcast0:02:36 uh in morocco and probably a lot of0:02:38 other places are watching our material0:02:40 and they seem to enjoy it so0:02:42 i didn't meet anybody because i was just0:02:44 so busy with the wedding party and0:02:47 everything planning i didn't really get0:02:49 the chance but um0:02:51 it was nice to see that a lot of people0:02:54 there are watching our stuff and really0:02:56 enjoying it and0:02:58 inshallah benefiting from it so that was0:03:00 nice to see0:03:02 um so shout out to all the brothers in0:03:04 morocco then yeah yeah shout out to them0:03:07 we shout out to everybody in the chat0:03:09 now we've got uh0:03:12 a good amount of people here0:03:15 so0:03:16 um0:03:17 yeah abdul was probably going to be a0:03:19 few minutes so we might as well just0:03:20 jump straight into it yeah right so0:03:24 the topic is salvation in islam0:03:27 uh in christianity what we're going to0:03:28 do first0:03:30 is we're going to go through the islamic0:03:32 perspective0:03:34 on what salvation is0:03:36 um some details about it and then we're0:03:38 going to go through0:03:40 the side in christianity and then0:03:42 eventually as you guys know how we do it0:03:44 on tap probably about after what maybe0:03:47 45 minutes to an hour uh we'll open it0:03:50 up to guests and you guys can come on0:03:52 ask questions or0:03:54 make comments so everybody's saying yeah0:03:57 i'm back yes i am back in the flash i'm0:04:00 here0:04:01 so uh it's good to see you guys here0:04:04 but um so yeah the first question0:04:07 that i have for you sharif is0:04:10 i guess we might as well start off by0:04:12 saying0:04:13 what is salvation and generally how is0:04:16 it attained in islam0:04:20 okay yeah i'm the last so i think uh0:04:25 i don't obviously there's different0:04:27 angles uh but just to give a very brief0:04:29 overview in terms of what uh and then0:04:32 we'll go on the specifics yeah0:04:34 so so i think it's not that complicated0:04:36 regards to salvation within islam0:04:39 ultimately allah0:04:42 expects two things for us in order to0:04:44 achieve the grace and mercy from allah0:04:47 and that is0:04:48 the right belief0:04:50 and good actions0:04:52 and those are the two things that if a0:04:54 person has the correct belief he does0:04:57 the performance of the good actions0:04:59 uh0:05:00 that he achieves salvation and0:05:03 you know maybe some alarm bells might be0:05:06 ringing from some of our0:05:08 christian colleagues and friends which0:05:10 is that they think oh good actions it's0:05:13 all about the works it's not a you know0:05:15 how are you going to get equal0:05:16 how are you going to get right with god0:05:19 yeah it's impossible for you to do that0:05:21 with your actions but no that's not the0:05:23 case within islam0:05:24 because within islam we recognize that0:05:27 our good actions are not sufficient in0:05:30 order to achieve0:05:32 uh0:05:33 salvation on its own and we've got the0:05:35 very famous hadith of the prophet0:05:36 sallallahu alaihi wasallam who explains0:05:39 that there was a man who had done uh you0:05:42 know had done worship and done righteous0:05:45 actions for0:05:46 you know many many years0:05:49 and you know when he was and he's0:05:51 narrated when he's brought forward0:05:52 before0:05:53 allah will ask him do you want to enter0:05:56 paradise you want to achieve salvation0:05:58 do you want to achieve you know allah's0:06:00 pleasure through your good actions or0:06:02 through the mercy through the grace of0:06:04 allah yeah the mercy of allah0:06:08 and you know he thought that he's done0:06:10 all the good actions that would be0:06:12 sufficient and so0:06:14 he then said okay through my good0:06:15 actions and then allah weighs0:06:18 all the good actions that he's done0:06:21 with the0:06:22 the uh the mercy and the buttock and the0:06:25 blessings of just his eyesight yeah i0:06:27 think in some narrations he says one of0:06:29 his eyes0:06:30 and that one you know blessings from0:06:33 that one aspect that allah has given to0:06:35 human beings i'll wait all of his good0:06:37 actions and then the man realizes that0:06:40 by your mercy yeah so we're taught by0:06:43 the prophet sallallahu alaikum that good0:06:46 actions on their own are not sufficient0:06:48 so what do we mean by belief well belief0:06:50 obviously is the correct belief the the0:06:54 very on the basis of the islamic which0:06:57 is the six pillars of the islamic faith0:07:00 or iman you know belief in allah the0:07:02 angels the books the prophets the day of0:07:05 judgment and al-qaeda the good and the0:07:07 bad of which is from allah these are the0:07:10 fundamental pillars of islam and when it0:07:12 comes to the good actions it's the0:07:14 sharia0:07:15 abiding by what allah has ordained for0:07:18 us was established within the quran0:07:20 within the sunni of the prophet0:07:21 sallallahu alaihi wasallam0:07:23 and that means you know in terms of our0:07:26 relationship with allah how how we0:07:28 worship our eberdah0:07:30 how we relate to other people0:07:33 and how we uh relate to ourselves0:07:35 through our0:07:36 yeah our morality in good manners so you0:07:39 know ibadah means worship is that direct0:07:42 relationship with allah that we have0:07:45 uh0:07:46 means how we interact with other people0:07:49 and then obviously how we how we clothe0:07:51 ourselves the morals the manners that we0:07:53 have is what we mean by0:07:56 these all of these things follow within0:07:58 the sharia within0:07:59 um righteous actions and then obviously0:08:03 it's a case of staying away from evil0:08:05 staying away from sin and if we commit0:08:07 sin to constantly seek repentance before0:08:10 allah0:08:12 and0:08:13 you know maybe we can talk about what0:08:15 what it means when it goes to repentance0:08:17 within the islamic paradigm but then we0:08:19 seek repentance before allah and hope0:08:23 for allah's forgiveness and mercy and0:08:25 overlooking our bad deeds so that's just0:08:27 i think that's quite clear i think it's0:08:30 not that complicated0:08:32 i think if we do have the right beliefs0:08:35 we perform the good actions then we are0:08:38 uh0:08:39 then we have the the ability to gain the0:08:41 mercy of allah yeah so i think that's0:08:44 that's the issue0:08:46 right yeah because0:08:47 for people who don't know0:08:49 salvation basically is when we're0:08:52 talking about how how do you get0:08:53 salvation we're talking about how does0:08:55 one0:08:56 make it to paradise or heaven how are0:08:59 you in right standing with god and saved0:09:02 from um you know damnation and hell and0:09:05 things like that so just want to be0:09:07 clear on the terminology because some0:09:08 people may not know what salvation even0:09:11 really means so that's what we're0:09:13 referring to and and sharif was0:09:15 explaining all that0:09:16 now0:09:18 you know specifically is0:09:21 what comes up0:09:22 is some people may wonder well who's0:09:25 actually accountable0:09:27 uh for their beliefs and actions when0:09:30 when it comes to these things um and so0:09:32 from an islamic perspective0:09:34 uh who is held accountable for their0:09:37 beliefs and actions0:09:39 what would you say to that sharif and0:09:41 then i'll come and give my two cents0:09:43 uh yeah so uh we say isn't it that the0:09:46 the one in islam we say the mukallif is0:09:49 the one who's well held responsible0:09:52 so much is the one literally means the0:09:54 one who's responsible and so we say0:09:57 there are basically three people who are0:09:59 not held responsible0:10:01 the first is a child so until they reach0:10:04 the age of maturity yeah the second is0:10:08 the one who's insane or has doesn't have0:10:10 rational capacity0:10:12 you know until he either he regains0:10:14 conscience regains his sanity0:10:16 and the third one is the one who either0:10:19 you know basically he forgets or he over0:10:21 sleeps basically is a period of0:10:23 non-conscious awareness of what he's0:10:25 doing until he remembers or until he0:10:28 gains consciousness so anybody of those0:10:30 three categories are basically0:10:33 not responsible before the sharia yeah0:10:36 so anybody who0:10:38 is other than those three people0:10:41 will in generality as human beings would0:10:44 be considered responsible now some0:10:46 people will talk about okay what about0:10:49 the one who is unaware of islam never0:10:52 come across islam0:10:55 what's his0:10:57 salvation what's his responsibility0:10:59 and in origin there is differences of0:11:02 opinion amongst the scholars so there's0:11:04 verses of quran in which allah says that0:11:06 he does not punish a people until he0:11:08 sent a messenger to that to that town so0:11:12 the idea is that you have to have0:11:13 received the message so some scholars0:11:16 say well that means that person has to0:11:19 receive the message before they're held0:11:21 accountable and then this question about0:11:23 whether what's the level of0:11:25 responsibility that's required yeah0:11:28 what's the uh0:11:30 uh it's like another level what's the0:11:32 level of the message that he needs to0:11:34 receive yeah uh you know does it have to0:11:36 be just hearing that islam is true does0:11:39 it have to be more than that does it0:11:40 have to be like being clearly convinced0:11:43 you know given the clear evidences and0:11:45 proofs of islam you know so there is0:11:48 over the level but ultimately we believe0:11:51 that all human beings who have a0:11:52 rational sound capacity who reached age0:11:55 of maturity0:11:56 are under0:11:58 a certain level of responsibility to0:12:01 seek out guidance0:12:02 yeah0:12:03 whether they achieve or not that's a0:12:06 separate issue in terms of whether they0:12:07 become muslim but if they're in earnest0:12:09 they're sincere uh but they've just not0:12:12 heard the message of islam or it's been0:12:14 tainted for them or it's not clear in0:12:16 terms of the evidences then we believe0:12:18 allah dies merciful but obviously in0:12:20 that situation there is0:12:22 various scholarly differences of opinion0:12:24 on that it's a bit of an academic point0:12:26 of view uh in in generality0:12:29 right right0:12:30 yeah0:12:31 and the way i understand it is0:12:34 basically what you're saying that uh0:12:37 people are going to be judged on their0:12:39 capability what they had the ability to0:12:42 know0:12:43 and learn and be able to implement0:12:46 actions uh behind it as well because0:12:48 obviously if you're0:12:49 um well let me not even go into that but0:12:52 so it's going to be based on your0:12:54 capability what you're able to as far as0:12:57 rationally and physically be able to0:12:59 know and understand and also put those0:13:02 actions in um0:13:04 you know put those deeds you know0:13:06 forward0:13:07 but at the same time0:13:10 uh what you were mentioning about uh0:13:13 receiving the message that's very0:13:15 important too because if they didn't0:13:16 receive the message at all0:13:18 then0:13:19 what are they going to be held0:13:21 accountable for well some people think0:13:23 well at the very least they can know0:13:25 that there's a creator uh that created0:13:28 everything0:13:29 and um and then maybe even some0:13:33 moral principles but that's a little bit0:13:35 especially in islamic tradition that's a0:13:37 little bit more0:13:38 contested0:13:40 um but imam ghazali actually even talks0:13:43 about that if somebody hears about islam0:13:46 but is such a distorted0:13:48 version of it and it's not even really0:13:50 accurate then they're not actually0:13:52 rejecting islam they're rejecting0:13:54 a caricature of it and see so it's very0:13:57 important um from a muslim paradigm0:14:00 that you're first you have the ability0:14:03 to be able to know and implement action0:14:06 and also0:14:07 that uh you received the message and to0:14:10 what capacity was it tainted in any way0:14:12 so there's it's all sorts of0:14:15 distinctions that we can raise and it's0:14:16 very difficult you know because a lot of0:14:19 times christians want sort of a neat0:14:21 answer to these things and not just them0:14:23 shouldn't say just them but people in0:14:25 general and they want to be asked about0:14:27 specific people oh what about this0:14:30 person or about this person when islam0:14:32 we don't make0:14:35 declarations of certainty about the0:14:38 afterlife0:14:39 about individual people we can talk0:14:42 about beliefs and actions and if you do0:14:45 those type of things where it sort of0:14:47 leads to but we don't make proclamations0:14:50 on individuals other than the ones that0:14:53 are specifically mentioned in the quran0:14:56 and the sunnah for example we have the0:14:58 hadith of the prophet0:15:01 where he mentions certain people that0:15:03 he's guaranteeing paradise for for0:15:05 example or in in the quran certain0:15:08 people like the pharaoh is mentioned as0:15:11 he's going to be in hell0:15:13 so0:15:14 other than these small number of0:15:17 exceptions we do not make proclamations0:15:20 about individuals and that's very0:15:21 important0:15:23 because a lot of times0:15:25 people um0:15:27 sometimes out of ignorance or maybe even0:15:30 frustration they go a bit too far and0:15:32 make these kind of statements that we as0:15:35 muslims we're just we're not allowed to0:15:36 say those kind of things so interesting0:15:39 because what's interesting here because0:15:41 i know what the uh general contention or0:15:43 one not general but one of the key0:15:45 consensus oh so you don't have a promise0:15:48 that you're going to go to you're going0:15:50 to achieve salvation we do yeah so so0:15:53 there'll be christians out there saying0:15:54 well we have yeah0:15:56 uh we've got this promise all we have to0:15:59 do is accept jesus died for us and0:16:01 that's it we're transformed we've0:16:03 received grace0:16:05 but what i find interesting is okay well0:16:08 what about that christian who at that0:16:10 moment accepts it and then maybe a few0:16:12 years later0:16:13 he becomes an apostate he leaves0:16:15 christianity0:16:17 what would the christians say then well0:16:18 christian would say well he never really0:16:20 achieved grace so they're really0:16:22 actually in the same position how do0:16:24 they know that they're going to die upon0:16:26 their christianity0:16:27 yeah because how do they know that they0:16:30 are the elect for you yeah i don't know0:16:33 if you want to see yeah they they yeah0:16:34 they don't know in reality it's it's the0:16:36 same result they don't know what their0:16:38 end state is gonna be0:16:40 and it's the same thing in the quran is0:16:43 that0:16:43 not only about the people0:16:46 um of hell but the same of paradise we0:16:49 don't say oh yeah that guy he's0:16:51 definitely going to paradise0:16:53 we you know we ask a law that that0:16:55 happens especially after after the0:16:57 person is dead0:16:59 but0:17:00 the people of paradise their beliefs and0:17:03 their actions are described in the quran0:17:06 and the same is true for the people of0:17:07 hell so we can see the overall but we0:17:11 don't0:17:12 and another important thing to keep in0:17:14 mind as well is the intention in islam0:17:16 intention is very important0:17:18 and allah0:17:20 only allah knows the intentions of0:17:22 people we don't know what's in the0:17:23 hearts and minds of individuals we we're0:17:26 to judge by the apparent0:17:28 but we don't know what's in the hearts0:17:30 and minds of people so we don't really0:17:31 make those individual proclamations but0:17:34 we do have promises in the quran we have0:17:37 promises in the quran that if you do x y0:17:40 and z and if you believe x y and z then0:17:42 you will be in paradise right because he0:17:45 he does make those promises0:17:47 um0:17:48 quite clearly and likewise the same same0:17:51 goes for hell you if you you believe0:17:53 this you you don't believe this uh you0:17:57 do this and you don't do that0:17:59 yeah that type of person0:18:02 all things being equal they're they're0:18:04 gonna go to hell but we don't know0:18:06 because there's so many different0:18:07 variables at play in the person's life0:18:10 and their intentions that we just can't0:18:12 say about individual people you see0:18:15 so anyway you wanted to come in and say0:18:17 no no i was going to say yeah no so it's0:18:18 like like for example even in surah 130:18:21 yeah i can't remember which chapter0:18:23 number of the0:18:24 of the quran but it mentions isn't it it0:18:27 says mentions that you know humans will0:18:29 be a base to lose of law as philosophy0:18:32 and then he says0:18:38 you know except those who believe and do0:18:39 righteous actions and for them there is0:18:42 an unending reward an unfailing reward0:18:44 so there's a clear promise yes0:18:47 well what you're basically saying jake0:18:48 is this is that well okay you've got0:18:50 this very clear promise just like maybe0:18:54 somebody from another faith like0:18:55 christianity has this so-called0:18:57 obviously we don't believe it but their0:18:58 clear promise that if you accept uh0:19:01 jesus died for your sins then they'll0:19:03 say you do you're going to be0:19:06 accepted but just like us we don't know0:19:10 we don't have a magic wand in terms of0:19:13 knowing what's going to happen to us in0:19:14 the future or what's going to happen to0:19:16 another person in the future so it keeps0:19:19 us in essence from an islamic paradigm0:19:20 it keeps us very grounded yeah very0:19:24 self-aware0:19:26 even you know aware of the actions that0:19:28 we perform so there's a there's a famous0:19:30 quote from imam shafi who said all0:19:33 hearts are dead yeah except those with0:19:36 knowledge and all those with knowledge0:19:39 are asleep except those who perform0:19:41 actions and all those who perform0:19:43 actions are deceived except those with0:19:45 sincerity and all those with sincerity0:19:48 in a constant state of anxiety what he0:19:50 means by that he's they're constantly0:19:52 addressing why they perform the action0:19:55 the sincerity behind the action you know0:19:58 the the desire to want it to be accepted0:20:00 before allah because they're thinking0:20:03 you know have i done it with the right0:20:05 intention you know constantly looking at0:20:07 the bad actions that they do and that0:20:09 they're trying to repent from that so it0:20:11 creates this very grounded very0:20:14 uh you know humility0:20:16 yeah0:20:18 this person with humility that actually0:20:20 thinks to himself actually you know what0:20:22 i have to really0:20:23 concentrate upon what i'm doing and why0:20:26 i'm doing like like when we do these0:20:27 streams isn't it we we have to0:20:29 constantly remind ourselves that okay0:20:31 why are we doing are we doing it for0:20:32 fame are we doing it for fortune0:20:35 obviously not fortune but you know or0:20:38 even fame but but obviously you know we0:20:40 have to remind ourselves because the the0:20:42 ego the enough the whispers of straight0:20:45 on you know these things can start to0:20:47 move us away and we think we're doing0:20:49 something good but actually we're doing0:20:52 it for our own selves0:20:53 right yeah that's right um i think we0:20:55 have uh abdirahman here yeah0:20:59 salaam0:20:59 thanks salaam0:21:06 yeah so we're just talking about uh the0:21:08 topic here salvation in islam versus0:21:11 christianity0:21:12 and uh we're going through the islamic0:21:15 conception0:21:17 so we talked about salvation generally0:21:19 we talked about who's accountable for0:21:20 their beliefs and who's not talked about0:21:23 promises of people0:21:26 so now we're at the point in the0:21:28 questions i have here0:21:30 what happens to muslims that commit0:21:33 heinous sins0:21:34 um because this may be a question0:21:36 because in christianity you know uh at0:21:39 least certain versions of it make it0:21:41 seem like well you just got to believe0:21:42 in jesus and that's the end of the story0:21:44 i know that's a caricature of it but and0:21:46 we'll get into that in a little bit0:21:49 but some people may be wondering well0:21:51 what about muslims that you know do bad0:21:54 things that they commit heinous sins0:21:57 what happens to them so um what would0:22:00 you guys say to that0:22:05 uh sorry is it is it lagging on my end0:22:07 or on yours just need to no no i think i0:22:11 think sharif is having slight internet0:22:14 um connection issues0:22:17 yeah um unless unless it's me0:22:20 no no no i don't think you're lagging0:22:22 not for me okay if you don't think he's0:22:24 lagging them then it's me so just give0:22:25 me a second wait hold on0:22:27 am i lagging for you yeah yeah you are0:22:29 then then it's probably me yes0:22:32 cause you because you're not lagging for0:22:34 me but sharif is lagging a little bit0:22:37 so i mean i mean both of you are lacking0:22:39 for me so oh okay let me let me just0:22:42 check my connection here0:22:45 um0:22:46 mine looks okay i don't know0:22:50 am i coming in clearly for you sharif or0:22:53 yeah yeah find him0:22:54 okay anyway we want to just0:22:56 go on yeah can you because i don't i'm0:22:58 not seeing anything0:23:00 in the chat that people are complaining0:23:03 so yeah so yeah so really muslims that0:23:05 commit these bad sins0:23:07 okay so0:23:08 uh0:23:10 so the person who commits a sin he has0:23:12 the opportunity0:23:14 uh well it's a major sin and the0:23:15 opportunity to repent yeah even the one0:23:19 who commits shirk yeah so the one who0:23:21 commits what we call the unforgivable0:23:24 unfavorable sin and i'll explain how it0:23:26 fits in within the context of what i'm0:23:28 saying because we believe that if a0:23:31 person turns in repentance before0:23:33 allah's panel died before he dies and he0:23:36 will be forgiven in terms of the fact0:23:37 that he's actually uh you know very0:23:39 sincere in the fact that if he was to0:23:42 replay the situation again he wouldn't0:23:45 commit the same error and same mistake0:23:47 now if a person0:23:49 doesn't repent or you know0:23:51 his sins outweigh his good deeds or you0:23:54 know0:23:55 he was doing for the wrong intentions0:23:58 uh things like that then the person is0:24:00 liable to punishment yeah and you'll be0:24:03 able to share they're saying it's you0:24:04 who's lagging0:24:07 yeah0:24:09 i don't i'm i see abdul clear as day0:24:12 yeah0:24:13 sharif yeah yeah sharif you are lagging0:24:15 i think for everybody so maybe0:24:17 maybe0:24:18 turning i can hear you but it's like0:24:21 lagging it's breaking in and out maybe0:24:23 okay let me try turning your video off0:24:26 yeah0:24:27 let me come back one second i'll come0:24:29 back0:24:32 um abdul i don't know if you heard the0:24:35 question if you want to weigh in at all0:24:36 yeah something about heinous sins and0:24:38 what really happens to to muslims and0:24:40 yeah muslims that basically commit sins0:24:42 and and sharif was going into0:24:44 um0:24:46 let me see sharif was talking about um0:24:49 repentance and he said that even for0:24:52 shirk which is the unforgivable sin0:24:54 people can repent for that up until they0:24:57 die0:24:57 so um yeah i mean i mean really it's0:25:00 it's a question of um um of of0:25:04 what does count as as uh you know0:25:08 retribution or or or as as you know0:25:12 making up for a sin whether you know0:25:13 what's going to be punishment0:25:15 or whether it's going to be a0:25:18 repentance i mean there are a lot of0:25:20 philosophical underpinnings there i0:25:22 don't know if you guys touched upon it0:25:23 but0:25:24 like0:25:26 i think from an islamic perspective it's0:25:27 either like sincere repentance right uh0:25:31 doing good that wipes away the bad0:25:34 right um the the sincerity is just a0:25:37 crucial factor and changing your ways is0:25:40 so so so i mean that's kind of par part0:25:43 of what it means to sincerely repent0:25:46 uh it should be sufficient i mean some0:25:48 muslims they may uh have sins that0:25:51 aren't forgiven maybe they0:25:53 their repentance hasn't been accepted0:25:54 they weren't sincere whatever well0:25:56 there can be punishment for that so um i0:25:59 think it's pretty straightforward the0:26:00 way the way i'm seeing it0:26:03 yep and sharif's not here so uh yeah i0:26:07 think it's0:26:08 pretty stroke for straightforward though0:26:11 one thing i do want to add which may be0:26:14 slightly different than christianity0:26:17 is that in islam0:26:18 for some people for some0:26:21 muslims that is0:26:23 they may have to go to hell temporarily0:26:27 um and i don't want to say it's the same0:26:28 thing as purgatory but they may go to0:26:30 hell temporarily where they have to pay0:26:33 for their sins0:26:34 and they will eventually be taken out0:26:37 and be brought to paradise so that also0:26:39 is0:26:40 a possibility that i want to uh just0:26:43 introduce and for people to keep in mind0:26:45 um that's what i meant by the punishment0:26:47 part so it might be the case that a0:26:49 muslim dies and it's like still has sin0:26:51 and stuff like that and maybe his0:26:53 repentance hasn't been accepted he0:26:55 hasn't repented or whatever it is i mean0:26:57 they're there it's possible for a muslim0:26:59 to be0:26:59 accountable and punishable for their0:27:01 sins0:27:02 yeah0:27:03 yeah and then actually sharif hinted at0:27:05 this earlier0:27:06 which uh0:27:08 when he was just talking in broad0:27:10 strokes about salvation but uh0:27:13 the question is do muslims achieve0:27:15 paradise without allah's mercy0:27:18 because this is a common critique0:27:21 of um0:27:24 christians or skeptics usually0:27:25 christians let's just be quite honest0:27:28 where they say oh well your deeds are0:27:30 what's meriting everything and you just0:27:32 go it's all about you and you just yeah0:27:34 so um yeah the question is do do muslims0:27:37 achieve paradise without allah's mercy0:27:40 so if you want to comment on that0:27:43 no i mean of course not we don't we0:27:44 don't we don't think anybody achieves0:27:46 paradise without allah's mercy0:27:48 and and the idea that we are accountable0:27:50 for our sins0:27:52 is not uh like does not negate the fact0:27:55 that0:27:56 if we were to0:27:58 make it to to heaven and attain0:27:59 salvation that would only be by allah's0:28:02 mercy so the fact that your allah looks0:28:05 at your deeds and and that the fact that0:28:09 you are accountable for your acts does0:28:11 not negate the the other uh0:28:14 you know side of it which is very0:28:15 important the allah's mercy and allah0:28:17 accepting you into his mercy0:28:20 right0:28:21 um0:28:22 so one second here okay sharif's still0:28:25 not here uh0:28:27 he's here he's here0:28:28 there0:28:29 oh he's back all right yeah that's uh0:28:32 you look better brother oh do i thank0:28:35 you0:28:36 you look a couple years younger too0:28:39 i moved to a new room0:28:46 yeah0:28:47 so um0:28:48 yeah0:28:49 i don't know if you wanted to tag0:28:51 anything on but uh abdul kind of just0:28:53 picked it up where you left off0:28:55 okay i don't know where abdul told0:28:59 yeah we might as well just move on right0:29:01 because and we're already a half hour in0:29:02 so and we got so we still got the0:29:04 christianity stuff to go so then the0:29:06 last question on islam and people can0:29:09 ask their questions later when you guys0:29:11 come on we'll put the link out in maybe0:29:13 another 15-20 minutes and um and then0:29:16 you guys will come on shortly after that0:29:19 but uh last question is can non-muslims0:29:23 go to paradise so what do you guys think0:29:25 about that0:29:27 no0:29:29 sure yeah0:29:31 so so so that i need to qualify that0:29:34 i mean so0:29:35 so by now so so what we mean by0:29:38 non-muslims would basically be a um0:29:42 and and and uh what what0:29:44 what what's important here is that you0:29:46 if you are a mushrik or you are a cafe0:29:49 you will end up in hell that's the0:29:52 islamic position however in order to0:29:54 determine who truly is the mushrik and0:29:56 who0:29:57 truly is the kafir0:29:59 aside from the legislative0:30:01 factors that we do know in this dunya0:30:03 the ultimate judgment is for allah and0:30:05 he knows you know he he he judges by all0:30:07 the factors that influence a a a0:30:10 person's like you know belief formation0:30:12 and stances on these things0:30:15 and so many things play a role in that0:30:17 so we're not in a place to judge0:30:19 individuals but generally speaking0:30:22 you know all things being equal0:30:24 a outright state of uh rejecting and0:30:28 denying the one who is the cause of your0:30:31 very existence0:30:33 makes you worthy of hell0:30:36 yeah so i'm just going to add as well so0:30:38 obviously the term non-muslim is a very0:30:40 vague term from an islamic perspective0:30:44 we use the word cather0:30:46 and kafir0:30:47 obviously linguistically comes from the0:30:50 word0:30:51 uh kafara or kuffer0:30:53 which means to cover up and the idea is0:30:56 that is to cover up or conceal the truth0:30:58 that they know but they try to conceal0:31:01 it in one way or another yeah they try0:31:03 to lie uh even to themselves about it0:31:07 so the question and i think we touched0:31:09 upon this at the beginning uh of the0:31:11 show with in terms of who is responsible0:31:14 so the question is well what about the0:31:15 average non-muslim who's never heard0:31:18 islam or has heard very little about0:31:20 islam or has heard a very destroyed0:31:23 version of islam and on that perspective0:31:25 there is0:31:26 like i said at the beginning a different0:31:28 scholarly difference of opinion about0:31:30 what that person's status is now some0:31:33 scholars they say that0:31:35 people who have not heard about islam0:31:37 and they come across0:31:39 on the day of judgement that they will0:31:41 be presented0:31:42 by allah will present himself and tested0:31:45 them on the day of judgment and if they0:31:48 pass the test and they enter genna if0:31:50 they don't pass the test0:31:52 then they enter hellfire so there will0:31:54 be a test for them0:31:56 and that's what some scholars0:31:57 they argue0:32:02 right so0:32:06 maybe maybe someone needs to touch also0:32:08 on the idea of what muslim means so um0:32:12 i mean yeah if you can you can or jake0:32:14 you could touch upon that yeah0:32:16 yeah i mean muslim in in terms of what0:32:18 it just means linguistically someone who0:32:21 submits himself to god0:32:23 um obviously it has a certain0:32:25 connotation being associated with the0:32:27 religion of islam so to speak0:32:30 but yeah technically0:32:32 um0:32:34 somebody0:32:36 because the quran does mention in other0:32:38 places and this is where it gets a0:32:40 little tricky about the0:32:42 there are certain people from people of0:32:44 the book0:32:45 um that are mentioned favorably0:32:48 and so0:32:50 could they be construed of as muslim in0:32:53 a certain sense0:32:54 in that they submit themselves to god0:32:58 they do good they believe in god they0:33:00 don't believe in trinity and all these0:33:02 other false doctrines that we we go0:33:05 through here0:33:06 um0:33:08 i mean that i guess that's kind of the0:33:09 debated question right and as sharif0:33:12 said certain people who didn't even hear0:33:14 the message of islam at all0:33:17 they will be presented with a test um0:33:19 it's not like they're just going to be0:33:21 automatically going to heaven or0:33:23 automatically going to hell it doesn't0:33:25 work like that0:33:26 so i don't know if you wanted to add0:33:28 anything else on the term muslim abdul0:33:31 well okay can i just uh really quickly i0:33:34 was going to mention obviously in the0:33:35 quran it mentions islam and muslim0:33:38 both in a linguistic sense and also a0:33:40 charity sense yeah shari basic means0:33:44 legislative or has a divine meaning to0:33:47 it yeah or a a technical meaning that0:33:49 allah on the part0:33:52 described to the particular meaning so0:33:54 we mentioned about ibrahimovic a muslim0:33:57 but it's used in a linguistic sense in0:33:59 in the context of0:34:00 linguistically as jake mentioned it0:34:02 means the one who submits to the will of0:34:04 god0:34:05 so ibrahim alaihissalam islam jesus0:34:08 abraham noah they're all muslim from the0:34:11 islamic paradigm and the people who0:34:13 followed them yeah0:34:14 they're all considered muslim uh from a0:34:17 linguistic point of view0:34:18 but there's also a technical meaning of0:34:20 the word muslim which is an islam which0:34:22 is also mentioned within the quran and0:34:25 the sunnah which basically means the one0:34:27 who follows the message of the prophet0:34:29 muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam and0:34:31 he normally is used within the0:34:34 definite article to differentiate uh0:34:36 from the indefinite to the definite0:34:38 article to differentiate whether it's0:34:39 being used linguistically or in a0:34:41 technical sense so so yeah so this is a0:34:44 person who's a muslim so that's why on0:34:47 the day of judgement the one who's not0:34:49 heard islam some scholars say they'll be0:34:51 tested to some hadith that talk about0:34:53 this as well that they will be tested0:34:56 and that if they pass that test meaning0:34:58 that they submit to the will of god that0:35:00 therefore they will be considered0:35:02 quote-unquote a a muslim even though0:35:05 they're not from a0:35:07 the ones who understood or followed the0:35:09 revelation of the prophet sallallahu0:35:10 alaihi wasallam in that technical sense0:35:14 right uh sharif0:35:16 did you0:35:17 see my message on whatsapp there i don't0:35:20 know if oh you're able to see it0:35:23 oh right yeah yeah yeah that's fine yeah0:35:25 yeah uh i just need to uh0:35:28 yeah i don't know abdul if you had any0:35:30 final thoughts because they're kind of0:35:32 wrapping up the muslim0:35:34 section and move over to christianity0:35:37 yeah yeah i think it's fine i'm okay0:35:39 cool so jake0:35:42 as soon as you uh0:35:45 our resident experts on christianity0:35:47 let me ask you the question now0:35:51 so uh what about christianity how so0:35:53 from an exciting point of view0:35:55 uh belief good actions allows you to0:35:58 gain the mercy of god you seek0:36:00 repentance of the sins that you do0:36:03 and uh and as muslims with promise0:36:05 therefore0:36:07 we do these things we fulfill these0:36:08 conditions we gain salvation from0:36:11 christianity how does it work0:36:13 yeah so0:36:16 again this is a broad stroke and then0:36:18 we're going to go into detail so i'm0:36:20 going to ask answer it as general as i0:36:22 can but0:36:23 the common christian understanding is0:36:26 look jesus christ who they also believe0:36:29 was the messiah many of them also0:36:31 believe that he's god most of them in0:36:33 the trinitarian sense right0:36:36 uh he died for your sins and this is0:36:39 explicit in0:36:40 um0:36:41 in the new testament you'll see it and0:36:43 this is a bit controversial but0:36:47 some scholars think that for example the0:36:49 gospel of luke doesn't actually0:36:52 support this doctrine because the new0:36:54 testament0:36:56 which is a large portion of what0:36:58 christian doctrine is based on0:37:00 has different authors the reality is0:37:02 some of them have different ideas0:37:05 so some of them think that the doc the0:37:07 gospel of luke doesn't actually support0:37:09 this idea of0:37:11 atonement for sins0:37:13 in the way that somebody like paul does0:37:15 in his0:37:17 writings in the new testament or even0:37:19 mark or matthew0:37:21 so0:37:23 but0:37:24 in christianity in the religion of0:37:27 christianity and the way that it's0:37:29 taught0:37:30 most of the time it's going to be0:37:32 presented as0:37:33 jesus christ who's god on earth came0:37:36 down and he died for your sins now what0:37:39 that means is0:37:40 that0:37:41 um0:37:43 and this is where we get into the sort0:37:45 of the0:37:46 more details about it there are0:37:48 different theories of what christ's0:37:50 death burial and resurrection actually0:37:54 means and and and we're going to get0:37:55 into that in a little bit0:37:57 but the the basic idea is that okay0:38:01 christ came to die for our sins because0:38:04 we couldn't live up to the law of the0:38:06 old testament it was so difficult for0:38:09 people to actually live up to that law0:38:12 and nobody can do that nobody can0:38:14 perfectly0:38:16 live up to the law and to be in god's0:38:18 presence we have to be made perfect so0:38:21 christ had to come and die for our sins0:38:24 in order to put us in a right standing0:38:26 and relationship with god0:38:29 also he had to come and defeat death0:38:32 because christians have this idea of0:38:34 original sin with adam and eve that when0:38:36 they committed that sin in the garden0:38:39 that that is what brought uh death into0:38:42 the world and so that you don't die0:38:45 because of natural causes or something0:38:47 like that you you literally die because0:38:50 of sin sin is why people die right so0:38:53 christ also had to come and conquer0:38:55 death0:38:56 he also had to come and conquer the0:38:59 corrupt human nature that we now possess0:39:02 in light of original sin this this0:39:05 doctrine that because adam and eve0:39:07 sinned and it gets passed down through0:39:09 the lineage and the human natures that0:39:11 everybody possess are corrupted christ0:39:13 had to come to perfect that human nature0:39:16 so there are many different aspects of0:39:18 it but in general the idea is that we0:39:21 are right with god0:39:23 if we confess that jesus christ is our0:39:26 lord and savior and we repent of our0:39:28 sins then we're we're basically going to0:39:31 go to heaven this is their basic idea so0:39:35 let me just try to understand this so0:39:37 from this what you're saying is a number0:39:40 of things there's a number of aspects in0:39:42 terms of how they view sin first one is0:39:45 you can't fulfill0:39:48 your your standards your ability to get0:39:51 right with god is impossible because god0:39:54 is perfection and you're imperfect yeah0:39:56 you just can't get there yeah there's0:39:59 that inability0:40:01 and the second thing you're saying is0:40:04 that0:40:04 death is the punishment for sin0:40:08 so you've got this like you know0:40:10 according to christians they believe0:40:12 that0:40:13 you know uh adam alice0:40:16 and eve that uh that they committed sin0:40:19 that's it0:40:20 if you commit sin the only punishment uh0:40:23 the only the only0:40:24 uh yeah the only punishment you're going0:40:26 to receive is death there's no way0:40:28 you cannot get out of this this is it0:40:30 god has said punishment for sin is death0:40:33 and so as a result then there's this0:40:37 the christ figure0:40:39 which fits in so how does this christ0:40:41 figure then bridge these two gaps it0:40:44 just reminds me of these two key gaps0:40:47 isn't it0:40:48 you can't get right with the infinite0:40:49 perfect god0:40:51 and the punishment for sin is death0:40:54 therefore we're all sinners0:40:57 because of we're all born sinful0:40:59 therefore there's no way of escaping0:41:01 death so therefore we need0:41:04 this was it substitutionary0:41:06 atonement yeah is this where it comes in0:41:09 yeah0:41:10 yeah um0:41:12 so0:41:13 one example of this idea is in you can0:41:16 find it in second corinthians0:41:19 chapter 5 verse 210:41:22 where it says i'm reading from the0:41:23 english standard version says for our0:41:26 sake he made him0:41:28 and speaking it's it's speaking of god0:41:30 made him speaking of uh0:41:33 jesus christ0:41:35 uh to be sin who knew no sin0:41:38 so that in him we might become the0:41:41 righteousness of god so this idea that0:41:45 jesus who was sinless0:41:48 he didn't know any sin0:41:49 he became sin meaning that he took on0:41:52 the sins of the world0:41:54 so that in him in christ we might become0:41:58 the righteousness of god so this idea0:42:00 that christ0:42:02 took on the sins0:42:04 of humans0:42:06 right a perfect man took on the sins of0:42:09 humans so that we would be able to0:42:12 become and have0:42:14 the righteousness of god or for the sake0:42:16 of this discussion be able to have that0:42:18 ability to have salvation with god so0:42:21 that's the idea um and part of it for0:42:24 them very importantly is the idea that0:42:27 christ was sinless he wasn't a sinner0:42:30 and for many of them he was god on earth0:42:32 right so it's actually god coming and0:42:36 dying for sins so that we don't owe this0:42:39 debt or payment0:42:43 to god himself0:42:47 so uh abdul rahman if you want to jump0:42:49 in just feel free to jump in and show0:42:51 that yeah so i'm just trying i'm trying0:42:52 to understand this now so0:42:55 uh0:42:56 so basically you've got this idea that0:43:01 god had to be the only one that could0:43:04 sacrifice that could pay the debt god is0:43:07 perfect so he needed a perfect sacrifice0:43:10 and that's impossible for a human being0:43:13 so therefore it'd have to be god himself0:43:14 that had to come to earth to sacrifice0:43:17 himself0:43:18 in order to pay for the debt of humanity0:43:20 is that right0:43:21 yeah yeah that's the basic idea but0:43:23 obviously there are caveats and0:43:27 their different understandings of0:43:29 christ's death but0:43:31 that's the basic idea and the one that's0:43:33 you're going to find uh0:43:35 most when he's when you speak to0:43:37 christians and then the second aspect of0:43:39 that is that because god did this0:43:42 perfect sacrifice0:43:44 of death0:43:46 took on the punishment of death0:43:48 that therefore god could fulfill the his0:43:51 promise that sin0:43:53 the the the punishment for sin is there0:43:56 god could actually punish sin0:44:00 by death0:44:01 by0:44:02 uh reincarnating onto this earth0:44:06 dying for the sins of people and0:44:08 therefore says right okay that's payment0:44:10 is that right yeah0:44:11 yeah yeah i mean0:44:14 and early on people don't actually know0:44:17 uh uh there was a theory held0:44:20 um in which0:44:22 the payment was actually not made to god0:44:25 it was actually made to satan to the0:44:26 devil you see but that's a whole nother0:44:29 can of worms but let's just say that0:44:30 it's made to god0:44:32 god himself is dying because0:44:35 it's like you can think of it like this0:44:37 in modern terms it's like everybody's0:44:39 got a negative bank account0:44:41 and no matter what you do0:44:44 you can't even get to a zero balance0:44:47 forget about getting to a million0:44:49 dollars you can't even get to a net of0:44:52 zero everybody's in the negative so god0:44:55 needs to come along0:44:56 and die for us in order to get us to0:45:00 that you know positive balance or at0:45:02 least to a net of zero0:45:05 everybody's in the negative0:45:07 but0:45:08 in this case and i know it's kind of a0:45:10 crude way of saying it but he's paying0:45:12 himself0:45:13 um0:45:14 because unless you want to say that he's0:45:16 paying the devil or somebody else but0:45:18 that's0:45:18 even worse you see so um but yeah that's0:45:22 the idea0:45:23 okay so0:45:24 are there different theories regardless0:45:26 of this issue of atonement then because0:45:28 you said obviously the issue of paying0:45:30 the devil you said that jesus became sin0:45:34 yeah he actually had then had the sinful0:45:37 nature what0:45:38 what's the particular model sorry0:45:41 oh yeah so0:45:42 no i don't think that um people0:45:46 understand it in that literal sense of0:45:48 that he literally took0:45:50 you know he literally became sinful0:45:53 um not christians don't understand it0:45:55 that way but what they do0:45:57 they understand it more in a in a0:46:00 metaphorical sense that0:46:02 he took on the sins of people basically0:46:06 that um0:46:08 not that he literally became guilty0:46:11 um0:46:12 he became a representation of the scene0:46:14 yeah yeah he's basically a0:46:15 representation to to stand in between0:46:19 he's a mediator you see because you have0:46:21 that in the new testament where it says0:46:24 that christ jesus is the one mediator0:46:26 between god and men so he sort of steps0:46:29 in between and plays that role0:46:32 but speaking on the different theories0:46:35 not everybody understands christ's death0:46:37 as a substitutionary atonement you also0:46:40 have other models and unfortunately we0:46:42 don't0:46:43 we don't have a lot of time to go into0:46:45 detail but i just want people to know0:46:48 that there are other conceptions of0:46:50 christ's death that are not necessarily0:46:52 this common understanding that we hear0:46:55 of substitutionary atonement one example0:46:58 and this is just one example is this0:47:00 idea that's called the christus victor0:47:03 model0:47:04 and the christus victor model0:47:06 really doesn't have much to do with0:47:09 christ's pain0:47:11 a penalty for our sins or this or that0:47:14 or this substitutionary atonement that0:47:16 we were guilty so he had to die for us0:47:19 no this idea of christus victor mainly0:47:23 is that0:47:24 in christ's self-sacrificial act0:47:28 he became a paradigm of0:47:31 what it was like for somebody to be0:47:34 merciful and to be loving and0:47:36 self-sacrificial0:47:38 and he became that figure that0:47:40 christians should look at0:47:42 and0:47:44 implement into their life you see but it0:47:47 was not in the same sense as how we0:47:49 understand it or many christians portray0:47:52 today0:47:52 as this substitutionary atonement is0:47:55 it's totally different0:47:57 so i want just want people to keep in0:47:59 mind that there are other models like0:48:01 this christus victor model or ransom0:48:04 theory0:48:05 are governmental theory and all these0:48:07 different other theories to have0:48:09 slight differences between them uh but0:48:12 actually the christus victor model was0:48:14 very0:48:15 i would say very influential and0:48:17 somewhat popular on in the early church0:48:20 and later especially through the0:48:22 protestant reformation0:48:24 a lot of these ideas kind of became0:48:27 filtered out and what we hear commonly0:48:30 today is0:48:31 uh what's called penal substitutionary0:48:34 atonement uh and that's that's just one0:48:37 theory of christ's death0:48:39 and um so yeah anyway we unfortunately0:48:41 don't have time0:48:44 yeah so it is substitutionary atonement0:48:45 the standard like mainstream i mean i0:48:47 know it is today maybe but uh like when0:48:50 we're speaking about orthodoxy is there0:48:52 like a particular model or are these0:48:54 like later philosophical0:48:56 considerations that that0:48:58 that are derived from orthodox beliefs0:49:02 um0:49:04 so i mean the question of orthodox is0:49:07 tricky because it depends who you ask0:49:09 but0:49:10 for protestants definitely0:49:12 penal substitutionary atonement0:49:15 is the most um0:49:17 most popular0:49:19 and would be considered orthodox for0:49:21 them0:49:22 for0:49:23 uh catholics0:49:25 um0:49:27 it's a little bit different some of them0:49:29 like to hold to this governmental theory0:49:33 and then eastern orthodox is a little0:49:35 bit different as well0:49:37 but what you'll see is that a lot of0:49:39 times it's not so0:49:42 it's not that they contradict one0:49:44 another these theories but many times0:49:47 they0:49:48 choose to emphasize0:49:50 one particular point over another you0:49:52 see so um for example0:49:56 eastern orthodox really emphasized this0:49:59 idea of theosis or this idea that um0:50:03 basically humans are going to become0:50:05 gods or godlike0:50:07 and that is achieved through the death0:50:10 burial and resurrection of christ0:50:12 and it's a lot about um0:50:15 sort of0:50:16 uh taking over and um0:50:20 not a payment to the devil but basically0:50:23 this notion that their jesus came to0:50:26 conquer death and restore our human0:50:29 nature0:50:30 so it's a bit it's very restorative in0:50:34 the fact that christ came to restore the0:50:37 human nature to the original state that0:50:39 adam was0:50:40 before he sinned it's not so much as0:50:43 much about paying for the sands and this0:50:46 idea of0:50:47 of christ is punished because of us0:50:50 type of deal and it's not as much about0:50:52 that it's more restorative in nature0:50:56 so just as so0:50:58 how does this relate because obviously0:51:00 you've got0:51:02 jesus dying for people sins0:51:04 yeah the penal substitutionary theory or0:51:07 atonement0:51:08 how does that relate to an ordinary0:51:11 person or ordinary christian self uh0:51:13 seeking salvation does he have to do0:51:15 anything does he0:51:17 does he have to do works does he have to0:51:19 have beliefs what is it what's the0:51:20 relationship between the two0:51:23 yeah so0:51:24 for for catholics and again this is0:51:26 gonna be because there's some diversity0:51:28 in christianity0:51:30 for catholics they do have this idea of0:51:34 works not that the works necessarily0:51:37 merit0:51:38 the salvation because they still believe0:51:40 that it's through grace and through0:51:43 christ's death on the cross0:51:45 but at the same time0:51:47 the the the works are important so they0:51:50 go to and you can look up you'll see0:51:52 debates between chris um like0:51:54 protestants and catholics they go to the0:51:56 book of james0:51:58 where0:51:59 james actually says that faith without0:52:02 works is dead you see and0:52:05 this was such a problem for protestants0:52:08 like martin luther that he didn't even0:52:11 like the book of james he actually0:52:13 doubted its authenticity it was such a0:52:16 it was such a big problem for him uh the0:52:18 book of james and so0:52:19 0:52:21 yeah for some for some people like0:52:23 catholics and this is why they have all0:52:25 these different0:52:26 sacraments and and things that they have0:52:29 to do0:52:30 because0:52:31 in reality0:52:33 uh and also that's why they have i think0:52:36 it ties in this idea of purgatory which0:52:40 is a place0:52:41 not the same as heaven because they have0:52:43 this division i know i'm kind of mixing0:52:46 a lot of these things together but they0:52:47 have this division of sins of sins that0:52:50 basically0:52:52 are are deadly sins so to speak and then0:52:54 ones that are minor sins0:52:57 if you commit those are if you are0:52:59 committing those deadly sins just0:53:01 because christ died doesn't mean oh0:53:03 you're you're just going to go to0:53:04 paradise they don't believe that0:53:06 but for protestants it even though they0:53:09 want to deny that maybe in word uh as0:53:13 well in reality i think that's what0:53:15 their position results in reality is0:53:17 christ died for you all of the sins that0:53:19 you committed if he tru if you truly0:53:22 believe in him0:53:23 all those sins are0:53:26 metaphorically nailed to the cross0:53:28 and so there's nothing that god can0:53:30 really hold you accountable for because0:53:32 christ paid the penalty for all of them0:53:35 you see so there is a division between0:53:38 how the protestants understand it and0:53:40 how the catholics and orthodox0:53:42 understand it they're a little bit more0:53:44 work related whereas the protestants um0:53:47 not so much it's almost like this uh0:53:50 what you call anti-nomian doctrine which0:53:53 is basically you can do whatever you0:53:55 want and i know some people are going to0:53:57 say well jake you're misrepresenting and0:53:59 blah blah blah but honestly i think0:54:01 that's the reality of it0:54:03 so okay so from what i understand really0:54:06 quickly then so for an ordinary0:54:08 christian they have to believe in0:54:11 jesus being god jesus as god coming down0:54:15 onto the earth jesus dying for the sins0:54:18 of human beings if they don't believe in0:54:20 that0:54:21 you know then that says0:54:22 irrespective what they do and what else0:54:24 they they believe in they're not gonna0:54:27 be saved yeah yeah you're done yeah yeah0:54:30 and then there's there's two groups0:54:34 there are two general camps within0:54:35 christianity0:54:36 one which is related to uh works0:54:40 uh0:54:40 0:54:42 i think from my understanding what0:54:43 protestants basically say is that there0:54:45 is a transformation in the individual0:54:47 yeah the individual transforms because0:54:50 he's accepted jesus now0:54:52 uh you know who's god and died on the0:54:54 cross he transforms into this0:54:56 you know angelic type character yeah0:54:59 this you know this godly like character0:55:02 yeah and so his good actions are just a0:55:06 manifestation of god transforming him0:55:09 and then with the catholics and the0:55:11 protest the orthodox they believe that0:55:14 there is some sort of transformation but0:55:16 they also believe that you're still0:55:17 going to be held accountable for your0:55:18 actions and you therefore need to focus0:55:20 upon your actions0:55:22 and i think that's probably why we sort0:55:24 of see within catholics and orthodox0:55:26 christians there's a lot more emphasis0:55:29 on adhering to tradition whereas for the0:55:32 protestants it's like it pretty much0:55:34 seems like anything goes really in terms0:55:37 of0:55:38 you know how they worship and what they0:55:39 do0:55:40 you know what they eat all these such0:55:42 things just you know0:55:44 they don't really have a you know0:55:46 laws or regulations in that context and0:55:49 even within the catholics and orthodox0:55:51 there's0:55:52 relatively minimal aspects relate to0:55:55 that yeah so if i got that sort of0:55:58 yeah and i think i mean0:56:00 obviously it's an over generalization0:56:02 but i think0:56:03 we can kind of see that play out is that0:56:06 um0:56:07 the relations between i think anyway0:56:11 muslims and uh catholics tend to be a0:56:14 bit better than with protestants and i0:56:16 think it does have something to do0:56:18 um with this idea but0:56:21 yeah so okay so this0:56:24 so sometimes what christians try to do0:56:26 is they try to present the penal0:56:28 substitutionary atonement0:56:31 as though it's a necessary rational0:56:34 just thing and that what they then argue0:56:36 is they argue that the muslim position0:56:39 is actually a logically incoherent0:56:41 position0:56:42 that god how could god just forget0:56:45 they're like how could god just forgive0:56:46 your sins0:56:48 yeah you sinned against an infinite0:56:50 creator there's no way that that would0:56:52 be unjust for god0:56:54 to say you know that he's he's he's just0:56:57 he's0:56:58 obviously they don't use the word idol0:57:00 but he's just yeah so therefore how0:57:02 could god being just simply forgive a0:57:06 person of their sins so they said they0:57:08 try to present it as though it's just a0:57:10 rational position0:57:12 that they you know it's just a logical0:57:14 rational position0:57:16 yeah and the question is is it rational0:57:20 and just i don't think it is i mean to0:57:22 say that and you have to understand what0:57:24 i just described how they view christ0:57:27 they view him as a sinless innocent man0:57:30 he didn't do anything wrong in order to0:57:32 even die from the beginning he died for0:57:34 everybody else well is it rational and0:57:37 just0:57:38 for an innocent man to die for the sins0:57:42 of all the guilty0:57:44 well in what world in what world does0:57:46 that make any sense not to me at least0:57:49 so i mean i'm happy to hear what you0:57:50 guys have to say about that but i don't0:57:52 think0:57:53 that an innocent person0:57:55 dying for the sins of all of the guilty0:57:59 i don't think that's rational i don't0:58:00 think that's just if if somebody and we0:58:02 can think of this in0:58:05 our court system if somebody kills0:58:08 somebody else do we say oh you know what0:58:10 his buddy feels bad for him so he said0:58:13 you know what there's something wrong0:58:14 with this guy why don't you kill me0:58:16 instead of him no nobody's going to go0:58:19 for that nobody's going to be0:58:21 happy with that we're not gonna give the0:58:22 death penalty or life sentence to this0:58:25 other guy just because he felt bad for0:58:27 his friend who went out and shot all0:58:30 these people no it doesn't work like0:58:32 that and so i don't think from an0:58:34 intuitive perspective it makes any sense0:58:37 for a an innocent person0:58:40 to be put to death0:58:41 for everybody the else that is guilty of0:58:43 these crimes and sins against god but0:58:46 jay what i i had a thought there0:58:49 could i just push jake on the point yeah0:58:51 yeah yeah go ahead i i i i don't mind if0:58:53 you want to come in before yeah jake is0:58:55 a no no no okay well go for it first but0:58:57 the issue is this is that0:58:59 god has to punish sin0:59:02 yeah god this is what the argument would0:59:04 be god has to punish them to be just you0:59:07 can't just arbitrarily say okay well you0:59:09 know this person who committed the exact0:59:11 same sin0:59:13 it's another person that that person0:59:15 will be forgiven without facing any0:59:17 punishment but this person will face0:59:19 punishment surely that's problematic0:59:22 this is what their argument would be0:59:26 yeah i don't think that's what happens i0:59:28 don't think god just arbitrarily says oh0:59:31 i like sharif you know0:59:33 he0:59:34 he looks nice today so he's going to go0:59:36 to heaven i don't think0:59:37 i don't think that's what happens0:59:39 but0:59:41 i do what i do think is happening i0:59:44 think god is judging people justly0:59:47 and he's not saying well okay let's take0:59:51 this innocent person and we're going to0:59:53 punish him0:59:55 because this other guy committed a0:59:57 heinous act or a crime no i don't see1:00:00 how that makes any sense but in the same1:00:03 sense each individual person1:00:06 everybody's going to be judged uh justly1:00:08 it's not going to be this arbitrary1:00:10 thing and the idea that sin needs to be1:00:13 punished well where do you get this idea1:00:15 from you have and and this is kind of1:00:17 skipping ahead but we have so many1:00:19 things and even in the bible in the old1:00:21 testament specifically in which god1:00:24 forgives people who repent he doesn't1:00:27 require a sin sacrifice whether it be a1:00:30 human or an animal people repent and1:00:34 turn to god and say wow we really messed1:00:37 this up and we want to get right with1:00:39 you and they turn and they change their1:00:41 lives around and they start doing the1:00:43 right thing1:00:44 and what what happens god forgives them1:00:47 in fact there are many places in the old1:00:49 testament where he says i don't delight1:00:51 in sacrifice i don't even like this1:00:53 stuff i appreciate a repent heart that's1:00:56 what i really want1:00:58 and even with the animal sacrifices in1:01:00 the old testament it wasn't just the1:01:02 animal sacrifice that was more symbolic1:01:05 representation of what was supposed to1:01:08 be happening if the person actually did1:01:11 not turn and repent correctly with their1:01:14 heart and god knows that whether they1:01:16 did or not1:01:17 it wasn't accepted it wasn't efficacious1:01:20 the the animal didn't do anything1:01:22 it's like if somebody uh performed the1:01:26 sacrifice uh for example whether it be1:01:28 on yom kippur or another type of sin1:01:31 sacrifice1:01:32 if the person didn't accept it or they1:01:34 said they did but they actually didn't1:01:36 repent and turn away from their from1:01:39 their wicked ways it was of no good it1:01:41 didn't do anything you see so god1:01:44 doesn't need to punish somebody whether1:01:46 it be an animal in our place or another1:01:49 human that's not what it's about it's1:01:52 about repenting to god and turning1:01:54 around and doing good deeds that's what1:01:57 it is1:01:58 so so i think1:01:59 what what i sort of sense when1:02:01 christians talk about this issue of1:02:03 being being rational and you know you've1:02:05 got this logical incoherencies that1:02:07 they're smuggling in a lot of1:02:09 presuppositions1:02:11 and they're using this as a way to sort1:02:13 of1:02:14 superimpose this upon1:02:16 as though this is a rational idea like1:02:17 for example the punishment of sin is1:02:20 death well nothing in islam says that in1:02:22 fact the opposite it says that1:02:25 every person who commits sin if they1:02:28 don't repent they're punished the idea1:02:31 is that there's a caveat that there is1:02:33 still opportunity to repent1:02:36 the second issue is that well okay1:02:39 just because you accept god it's like1:02:42 incarnated and sacrificed1:02:45 and therefore you're given this grace or1:02:47 mercy1:02:48 you know it does you're still a finite1:02:51 limited sinful human being that has been1:02:53 you know forgiven quote by god because1:02:56 of a particular set of beliefs well okay1:02:58 yeah but we're saying the same thing but1:03:00 not because of this particular idea of1:03:02 believing that god incarnated but rather1:03:05 we believe that you know you know the1:03:07 correct set of islamic beliefs and1:03:09 righteous actions that that gives us the1:03:11 ability to gain uh gain the salvation1:03:14 and the reward so1:03:16 you know there's a lot of things that it1:03:18 sounds like that the christians are1:03:19 smuggling in to try to make it sound as1:03:21 though it's a rational that you know god1:03:24 can't you know forgive uh without um1:03:28 you know without some sort of punishment1:03:30 being enacted1:03:32 that that only comes1:03:34 i could accept it if in the islam if in1:03:37 islam it says in the quran it says god1:03:40 has to punish or god makes a promise1:03:42 that he will punish every single sin1:03:45 yeah1:03:46 irrespective of whether you repent or1:03:48 not1:03:49 then then you've got a logical1:03:50 incoherency here isn't it but it never1:03:53 says that within within islam so to1:03:56 superimpose a christian doctrine upon1:03:58 islam and then say that you're being1:04:01 irrational then that's just simply1:04:03 you know smuggling in their own1:04:05 presuppositions regardless of this i1:04:06 know you've touched upon it but i just1:04:08 wanted to uh just you know ask the1:04:11 question about you know this this idea1:04:13 of salvation is it really in conformity1:04:16 with1:04:16 the old testament the torah1:04:19 jewish understanding1:04:20 you know that this idea that you know1:04:23 because again some christians what they1:04:24 do is they always point to this idea of1:04:26 animal sacrifice that this is the only1:04:28 way1:04:29 that the people prior to jesus were able1:04:32 to get forgiven so there's always a1:04:34 sacrifice that took place this is now1:04:36 the perfect one1:04:39 yeah no i i don't think it's in1:04:41 conformity with the old testament you1:04:42 can look at uh and i'm just going to1:04:44 rattle some of these off because we are1:04:46 we come in going on for an hour and we1:04:48 got a couple more questions you can look1:04:50 at ezekiel chapter 18 you also can find1:04:53 in the book of deuteronomy i think it's1:04:55 chapter 241:04:57 where it mentions that the sons for1:04:59 example shall not be put to death for1:05:02 the fathers and vice versa every man1:05:05 shall be put to death for his own sin1:05:07 which means what the people are punished1:05:10 for what they do people are not punished1:05:12 for what other people did instead of1:05:14 them also you find in the old testament1:05:17 that it rails against human sacrifice1:05:20 this idea of human sacrifice1:05:22 is just absolutely abominable to the god1:05:25 of the old testament1:05:27 also even the1:05:29 sacrificial system of animals in the old1:05:31 testament jews understood that as being1:05:34 for unintentional sins for those sins1:05:37 that they committed unintentionally or1:05:40 didn't even know about this is what1:05:42 these sacrifices were for it wasn't for1:05:44 murder if you went out and killed1:05:46 somebody or you stole something from1:05:48 somebody or you committed adultery with1:05:51 somebody's wife you didn't just kill an1:05:54 animal and everything was all good it1:05:55 doesn't work like that so that's that's1:05:58 another thing also1:06:00 you find numerous examples in the old1:06:02 testament of god forgiving people1:06:05 without the need of a sacrifice for1:06:07 example the whole story of jonah and we1:06:10 know1:06:10 muslims what happened with the story of1:06:12 jonas somewhat similar1:06:15 that what everybody actually repented1:06:19 and god forgave them when jonah went1:06:21 back1:06:22 god forgave them because they repented1:06:25 an entire nation or people were forgiven1:06:28 without a sacrifice and we we can go on1:06:31 and on there are numerous examples where1:06:34 sacrifices are not not only not uh1:06:37 necessary they're not even um1:06:40 uh1:06:41 liked like god talks about in the old1:06:43 testament that i don't delight in these1:06:46 sacrifices i don't even want them what i1:06:48 want is a repent and contrite person i1:06:51 don't care about these sin offerings1:06:54 so no i do not think that it is in1:06:56 conformity with the old testament1:06:59 just to remind also the audience just1:07:00 really quickly we're going to be going1:07:02 shortly we just got a couple of more1:07:04 points that we want to raise before we1:07:06 go to the audience we get people to call1:07:07 in1:07:09 you know if you disagree with what we're1:07:10 saying you want to challenge it1:07:11 inshallah you'll have the opportunity1:07:14 so1:07:15 but uh just to quickly move on are we1:07:18 jacob we addressed uh was jesus's death1:07:20 necessary for salvation1:07:22 yeah i do want to make one point on that1:07:24 the on because there's really there's1:07:26 only one other question here1:07:28 the the other question about do all new1:07:30 testament authors agree on soteriology i1:07:34 said earlier that1:07:37 scholars say that1:07:39 paul has this idea of how we1:07:42 you know how christ died for our sins so1:07:44 does for all appearances mark and1:07:47 matthew and john seem to as well1:07:50 but luke on the other hand does not seem1:07:54 to endorse this doctrine of1:07:57 atonement that christ dies literally had1:08:00 the substitutionary atonement that he1:08:02 dies for our sins the reason that they1:08:05 think this is because1:08:07 uh most scholars believe that mark was1:08:09 the first gospel written in which1:08:12 matthew and luke1:08:13 used as a source for writing their1:08:16 gospels and we're able when we line1:08:19 these three gospels up side by side and1:08:21 that's why they're called the synoptic1:08:22 gospels because they're more or less in1:08:25 sync whereas john is the seen to be the1:08:28 final gospel that was written and1:08:31 it's a bit different it has totally1:08:33 different stories1:08:34 uh seemer seemingly higher christology1:08:37 and theology when it comes to christ1:08:40 any but anyway1:08:41 um1:08:42 matthew and luke1:08:45 we can see because they're using mark as1:08:47 a source we then compare how they tell1:08:50 the same stories that mark had and we're1:08:52 able to see that there's an editing1:08:54 process that sometimes goes on for1:08:57 whatever reason luke did not seem to be1:09:00 down or have the same understanding of1:09:03 this idea of atonement that mark and um1:09:08 matthew's gospel did matthew seems to be1:09:11 holding more closely to uh mark's1:09:14 theology in that regard and luke edits1:09:17 out1:09:19 some of the sayings in mark's gospel1:09:21 that portray that and he does not uh1:09:24 tell the story the same way he leaves1:09:26 them out all the time so um that was1:09:28 just a quick remark on that that uh and1:09:31 i can give quotes maybe later if need be1:09:34 from scholars saying that luke doesn't1:09:36 appear to have this idea of1:09:38 substitutionary atonement going on in1:09:40 his gospel1:09:42 um1:09:43 and then on the last point here about uh1:09:47 death being necessary for salvation or1:09:49 not i actually want to share my screen1:09:52 and read a section here1:09:55 from uh1:09:57 thomas aquinas who's the doctor of a1:09:59 chur of the church of the catholic1:10:01 church that is1:10:03 where he answers this question because1:10:05 what happens is many christians say1:10:08 christ needed to come and die for our1:10:10 sins it was absolutely necessary there's1:10:12 no other possibility there's no other1:10:15 way that god could have done that well1:10:17 in actual fact there's what muslims call1:10:20 ektilaf on this issue even amongst1:10:23 christian theologians and scholars some1:10:25 believe that it was absolutely necessary1:10:27 some believe that it wasn't thomas1:10:29 aquinas answers the question uh quite1:10:32 directly and he says no that it wasn't1:10:34 so um let me just pull it up here i1:10:37 think my screen is sharing now right1:10:41 um1:10:41 so this is in the summa which is he1:10:44 of the third part question number 461:10:47 uh you'll see here was it necessary for1:10:50 christ to suffer for men's deliverances1:10:53 and you'll see on he's got objections1:10:55 here and responses to them1:10:58 now1:10:59 he says here1:11:01 um1:11:03 objection number one look it would seem1:11:05 that there was no uh was was there1:11:08 article two let me start here actually1:11:10 whether there was any other possible way1:11:12 of human deliverances besides the1:11:14 passion of christ meaning besides christ1:11:16 dying1:11:17 it would seem that there was no other1:11:20 possible way this is an objection of1:11:22 human deliverance is besides christ's1:11:24 passion for our lord says john 12 241:11:28 amen amen i say to you1:11:31 unless the grain of wheat falling into1:11:33 the ground dieth1:11:35 itself remaineth alone but if it die1:11:39 it bringeth forth much fruit and it goes1:11:42 on and lists other objections so the way1:11:44 that this book is constructed for those1:11:46 who don't know uh he'll bring a question1:11:49 he'll bring what people uh were1:11:52 either hypothetically or maybe they're1:11:54 real people who are actually saying1:11:55 these things and then he'll respond to1:11:58 the objections so he responds to this1:12:00 question where somebody is seeming to1:12:02 assume this he says1:12:04 on the contrary augustine says1:12:07 and he quotes augustine here and he does1:12:09 this many times he quotes augustine1:12:11 we assert that1:12:14 uh we assert that the way whereby god1:12:17 ordained to deliver us by the man jesus1:12:20 christ who is mediator and i brought up1:12:23 this concept before mediator between god1:12:25 and men1:12:26 is both good and befitting the divine1:12:30 dignity but1:12:32 let us also show that other possible1:12:35 means we're not lacking on god's part to1:12:38 whose power all things are equally1:12:41 subordinate so he's saying there is1:12:43 another possibility even though it was1:12:45 good and be fitting for god to do this1:12:47 there let's not get it confused there1:12:49 are other possibilities he says i answer1:12:51 that a thing may be said to be possible1:12:55 or impossible in two ways1:12:57 first of all simply and absolutely or1:13:00 second from supposition therefore1:13:02 speaking simply and absolutely it was1:13:05 possible for god to deliver mankind1:13:08 otherwise than by the passion of christ1:13:11 because quote1:13:12 no word shall be impossible with god and1:13:15 he cites luke 11:13:17 so he's quite clear1:13:19 on answering this question1:13:21 that uh christ there could have been1:13:23 another way that god could have1:13:25 reconciled man with god1:13:31 just like look at uh jake should we uh1:13:34 jump to any guests1:13:36 oh yeah so did we post the link yet did1:13:38 you guys think we posted we posted the1:13:40 link yeah as long as the link is posted1:13:42 and it's pinned there i do want to1:13:44 address one um falsehood that was just1:13:48 put out against me1:13:49 uh let me see if i can scroll to anyway1:13:53 i can't somebody actually said wait1:13:55 jake's back and he's not wearing red1:13:57 well look guys my hat is always red so1:14:00 come on what kind of comment is that and1:14:02 then the levi's logo is also red maybe1:14:05 he didn't see that so um i had to deal1:14:08 with that uh1:14:10 you know dispersion that was cast1:14:11 against me but anyway guys uh just1:14:15 just want to say1:14:16 the first guy we're going to bring on is1:14:19 very special1:14:21 brother zack1:14:32 it's good to see you i you got back from1:14:34 your trip to morocco and yeah1:14:38 i moved back brother1:14:41 you're back you're back in uh van hey1:14:44 yeah yeah1:14:45 how's that going1:14:47 good we actually moved back to the same1:14:49 house that humdrida so you know oh wow1:14:52 that's great1:14:53 yeah yeah and the landlord he didn't he1:14:56 didn't rent it out and so when we came1:14:57 back he was happy to bring us back in so1:14:59 i'd hunted it it's very good1:15:02 good to hear it's going well1:15:03 alhamdulillah we've missed you a lot1:15:05 likewise1:15:07 so uh so zach is going to be hanging out1:15:09 with us here so uh we've got uh1:15:13 uh1:15:14 hotels1:15:15 exactly do you want to say anything uh1:15:18 really quick based on anything you heard1:15:20 or you just want to hang out with the1:15:22 guests when they come on yeah i actually1:15:24 did want to say something so if uh and1:15:26 maybe kind of1:15:27 i didn't know hey go ahead yeah i i put1:15:30 it in the chat in the beginning but you1:15:31 know when the chat it's hard to see you1:15:33 won't you're limited to what like 2001:15:34 characters so i'm just going to like put1:15:36 it out here now what y'all think about1:15:37 it and whatnot and whatnot oh my1:15:40 goodness1:15:43 so1:15:44 when we were talking about like shirt1:15:46 being the unforgivable sin1:15:48 so going back like pretty far in the1:15:50 beginning what i always understood was1:15:53 that1:15:54 the shirt by definition by associating1:15:56 partners with god it's essentially1:15:58 calling him not absolutely powerful or1:16:00 not absolutely forgiving not absolutely1:16:02 and then in any in every sense1:16:04 essentially that's what shirk is and so1:16:06 implicitly that means that the person is1:16:09 uh saying that god uh hasha is unable to1:16:13 forgive everything and so therefore1:16:16 removes the uh1:16:18 the uh1:16:19 the the you know1:16:21 how can i put that he removes that1:16:24 notion that1:16:25 he negates the notion that god can1:16:27 forgive or anything and therefore puts1:16:28 himself in the position of not asking1:16:29 god to forgive everything of him and1:16:32 that's in a sense why it's unforgivable1:16:34 it's1:16:35 unforgivable from the uh person who1:16:37 commits shirk's perspective1:16:41 yeah no jesus i think that was a point1:16:43 where i had to come off the stream1:16:44 because i was lagging but i i wanted to1:16:46 mention uh one or two points regardless1:16:48 of the issue of shuriken in origin if1:16:50 you don't1:16:51 seek repentance from shirk1:16:54 then you never forgive it yeah this is1:16:56 the the origin within islam but1:16:58 obviously regards to the other sins that1:17:01 if you don't seek repentance from the1:17:02 major sins1:17:04 then you will be punished1:17:07 for it and punishment may be hellfire1:17:09 for a period of time but then the idea1:17:12 is that if you still have the1:17:13 fundamental belief in tahit that you'll1:17:15 be ultimately forgiven1:17:16 yeah but i think let's just move on to a1:17:19 tangelo because i think he's been1:17:20 waiting for1:17:22 for a while so1:17:25 angelo how are you hello guys uh1:17:28 yeah1:17:32 uh you're choppy on my end i don't know1:17:35 for everybody else a little bit choppier1:17:37 here as well but we can assume1:17:39 yeah but we can i think we can sort of1:17:41 get1:17:42 understand most of what you're saying1:17:46 angelo1:17:48 yeah try to say something now buddy1:17:50 yeah i try yeah i try to change hide1:17:53 here okay that's all about unfortunately1:17:55 yeah it's better that's better actually1:17:57 yeah you're coming clearly now okay1:18:01 okay so um i think you guys are talking1:18:04 about the very central and very1:18:06 important topic1:18:08 which is forgiveness and of course we1:18:10 all aim to be forgiven as uh as muslims1:18:14 believe in allah we christians also1:18:16 believe that god is real but the big1:18:20 question here of course is how can we1:18:22 actually expand eternity but1:18:26 and i think we both based on what1:18:29 we fear very different1:18:31 views1:18:33 and um1:18:35 uh1:18:36 i i i see it like a transaction1:18:40 that1:18:41 is very clear in 1 corinthians 61:18:43 20 where it says1:18:45 for you were both at the price1:18:49 therefore glorify in your body and in1:18:51 your spirit which are gods and with both1:18:55 what it means what this means by that1:18:58 this acts 20 28 therefore take heed to1:19:01 yourselves and to all the flock among1:19:03 which the holy spirit has1:19:06 made you overseers to shepherd the1:19:09 church of god which he purchased with1:19:11 his blood1:19:13 okay and in matthew 20 28 just as the1:19:16 son of man did not come to be served but1:19:19 to serve and to give his life a ransom1:19:23 for many1:19:24 so1:19:25 um this is very clear1:19:28 here it speaks about the transaction1:19:30 where god1:19:33 is for our sins1:19:35 he takes what other1:19:37 effects1:19:41 okay carry on1:19:43 you're back yeah so1:19:46 i got1:19:47 to stop pay the price1:19:54 giving that1:19:56 as a gift from god that we can be saved1:19:59 so this is very clear1:20:04 it is very strange to me it is as if um1:20:06 for example um1:20:09 giving1:20:10 um someone1:20:12 tortures1:20:14 rapes and kills your daughter1:20:19 to you you are the father of that1:20:21 daughter and then he whines and says oh1:20:24 i am so sorry for what i did and that1:20:27 the father will say oh you are sorry1:20:29 well1:20:36 yeah so1:20:38 it's a good question and i think we want1:20:39 to address some of the key points we're1:20:42 going to keep you on so you can respond1:20:43 as well1:20:44 so but i just want to understand a few1:20:46 few1:20:47 quick issues1:20:48 do you believe that the1:20:51 the the salvation the the theory of1:20:54 salvation within christianity is1:20:56 rational what i mean by rational is that1:20:58 even without christian text1:21:01 it would be logically necessary or do1:21:04 you think it's just something that's a1:21:06 scripturally1:21:07 uh based1:21:12 view um i think that sorry1:21:16 you're breaking up sorry you're breaking1:21:18 up slightly1:21:22 is it better than that yes but no yeah1:21:27 second you're saying okay so1:21:31 okay so i quote you from uh1:21:34 first corinthians it says for the1:21:36 message of the cross1:21:37 is foolishness to those who are1:21:40 perishing1:21:41 but to us who are being saved it is the1:21:45 power of god1:21:46 so1:21:47 um1:21:50 which1:21:51 is not a christian1:21:54 but you understand1:21:59 you're breaking up really really bad1:22:01 it's very difficult to make up what1:22:02 you're saying so1:22:04 yeah you're breaking up but from what i1:22:05 understand what you what you're1:22:06 basically saying is1:22:08 that the idea of salvation for a1:22:11 non-christian would seem foolish1:22:14 but it's not foolish1:22:16 but would the idea of salvation within1:22:20 the christian paradigm1:22:21 would it be something that's1:22:23 you could come to you could arrive at1:22:26 prior to any religious1:22:29 basically prior to the1:22:30 new testament would you be able to1:22:33 understand it prior to maybe jesus1:22:35 coming would the early you know uh1:22:39 with the the jewish followers of the old1:22:41 testament would they1:22:43 be aware of this idea of salvation or is1:22:46 it something that's they weren't aware1:22:48 of and it only came about1:22:50 after jesus's uh appearance on earth1:22:56 well1:22:57 i am not sure if they1:22:59 knew that their sacrifice system1:23:03 was just a shadow1:23:05 of what1:23:09 was but1:23:11 i mean uh let's suppose that you have1:23:14 someone1:23:15 which transgresses um a red light and is1:23:18 brought1:23:32 and then1:23:36 will be condemned to go to jail1:23:39 and the judge feels compassionate about1:23:42 it and pays the price and pays fine for1:23:45 that person and that person goes free1:23:48 is that is there something irrational1:23:50 unjust1:23:54 in the church doing that1:23:56 okay so a good really good question i1:23:58 wanna you know get jake bring jake in1:24:00 and just what is i'm just trying to1:24:01 understand your particular positioning1:24:03 so1:24:04 in origin you're saying that the jews1:24:06 who followed the old testament wouldn't1:24:08 really have known anything about1:24:11 how to achieve salvation prior to jesus1:24:14 they may have had some sort of1:24:15 foreshadowing but they would have had1:24:16 this notion that if you seek repentance1:24:20 you could be forgiven like the people of1:24:22 jonah1:24:23 that1:24:24 uh you know if you're1:24:26 trying to get right by god that you try1:24:28 to do it you know through being sincere1:24:31 and having correct belief and do good1:24:33 righteous actions are you upholding the1:24:35 law uh for the jews they would1:24:38 understand it from that perspective then1:24:39 there was a there was a there was a1:24:41 change1:24:42 yeah in terms of or an addition1:24:45 from your perspective which is obviously1:24:47 not actually no this is the real way of1:24:50 achieving salvation uh regardless the1:24:53 the the final question i was going to1:24:55 ask you before bringing jake to respond1:24:57 to two of your key points1:25:00 is what about um1:25:03 a baby who dies1:25:05 and therefore doesn't have the ability1:25:07 to acknowledge that1:25:09 jesus died for their sins1:25:13 would they be saved or would they not be1:25:15 saved1:25:16 yes of course1:25:18 mercedes will be saved and i am not the1:25:20 calvinist which believes that1:25:23 um1:25:24 all people are predestined and that we1:25:27 cannot actually uh uh1:25:29 do anything in regards of our eternal1:25:32 destination i don't believe that1:25:34 and i think the if if god would1:25:38 um1:25:40 predestine a baby which cannot make any1:25:43 moral judgment to eternal hell that1:25:47 would be an absolutely atrocious and1:25:50 understand1:25:52 deity1:25:53 and i would i don't believe that yeah so1:25:55 i'm going to bring in jake here so i1:25:56 don't know if jake you want to respond1:25:58 to maybe that particular point or some1:26:00 of the questions that you also asked the1:26:01 question real quick1:26:03 because i think the jake exchange is1:26:04 going to go on for a while i just1:26:07 because uh1:26:08 let's hang along confused me a bit there1:26:10 when he said that um1:26:12 the doctrine is gonna seem confusing uh1:26:14 or1:26:15 you know foolish to to the unbelievers1:26:19 uh but then but then you came1:26:21 on the call here with the intent of of1:26:24 uh demonstrating that it's reasonable by1:26:26 saying that for example the uh the whole1:26:29 rapist analogy that you gave and his1:26:31 forgiveness was seemed to be an attempt1:26:34 to1:26:35 demonstrate the reasonableness of your1:26:38 position1:26:39 so1:26:40 but how could you do that if the bible1:26:42 is already telling you that it1:26:44 necessarily is going to be foolish to us1:26:46 i mean1:26:47 what's the point yes if you listen yes1:26:49 if you if you listen to richard dawkins1:26:53 and he um1:26:55 he rejects uh women1:27:02 it's very difficult to hear yo tangelo i1:27:03 don't know if you can do something about1:27:05 the connection but it's impossible to1:27:06 hear you but i heard richard dawkins1:27:08 there and i'm1:27:11 i'm i'm for for unbelievers too so it's1:27:13 not just richard dawkins um so1:27:16 i guess the point is kind of cut out too1:27:18 abdul and it seems like everybody's1:27:20 having connection problems man what's1:27:22 going on1:27:24 it's weird i'm sorry yeah1:27:26 so1:27:27 guys1:27:28 what you were saying basically was that1:27:30 richard dawkins denies the cross1:27:32 therefore all of this would seem1:27:33 ridiculous to him but for versus no i1:27:36 just gave an example yeah so i just gave1:27:38 an example but we i mean you guys deal1:27:42 often with atheists and you know1:27:44 um1:27:45 that they they think that the entire1:27:48 um1:27:49 gospel is nonsensical so we see many1:27:52 many people which reject it it's not1:27:55 just richard dawkins i just mentioned1:27:57 him because he is a prime example and he1:28:00 is very outspoken against the decision1:28:03 of the1:28:05 of1:28:05 the gospel but i think the first of what1:28:08 abdul rahman is saying is that you gave1:28:10 two or you attempted to give two1:28:13 rational or reasoned arguments to try to1:28:17 justify without an appeal to scripture1:28:19 per se1:28:20 one was to say well would a father1:28:23 forgive the rapist of his daughter and1:28:25 the second one was related to the fact1:28:27 that well if a judge brings a person who1:28:30 can't afford it he may pay the money1:28:33 to him so that he can then pay it uh pay1:28:36 the particular fund that seemed quite a1:28:38 reasoned1:28:39 uh position now we can obviously explore1:28:42 that a bit further to see if it is1:28:43 reasoned but it's an attempt on your1:28:46 part at angelo to present your position1:28:50 that this is a reasonable position and1:28:52 then say well the other position is1:28:54 actually not reasonable yeah the slime1:28:56 position no i'm not saying it's not i'm1:28:58 not saying it's not reasonable what i1:29:00 say1:29:01 is that what the bible says1:29:04 be what we1:29:06 see1:29:07 that1:29:08 um the gospel1:29:10 listen to me1:29:13 but based on what i explained i think it1:29:16 is not1:29:17 unreasonable and it is also not unjust1:29:21 i think that all kinds of sins1:29:25 has to be punished in order to have1:29:27 justice okay i'll bring in jk jake1:29:33 yeah i i just want to address the1:29:35 question because he read that text1:29:37 earlier but if you read a few verses1:29:39 down1:29:40 in1:29:41 first corinthians chapter1:29:44 this is chapter 11:29:46 says in verse 23 it says but we preach1:29:49 christ crucified onto the jews a1:29:53 stumbling bl block and onto the greeks1:29:57 foolishness1:29:59 so for the jews it's a stumbling block1:30:01 towards them them it doesn't make any1:30:03 sense it's not something that they saw1:30:06 in their old testament texts as being1:30:08 prophesized and for the greeks who1:30:11 actually seek out after wisdom the text1:30:14 says it's foolishness why because it1:30:16 doesn't make any sense1:30:18 and so that's what we're i mean i don't1:30:20 know about want to represent everybody1:30:21 but that's what i'm saying i'm saying1:30:23 yeah it is foolishness to say that an1:30:26 innocent person should die for the sins1:30:28 of all guilty people is irrational it is1:30:32 foolishness and the fact that the author1:30:35 of the text is actually anticipating1:30:38 that and admitting that to me is very1:30:40 telling1:30:43 yeah i mean1:30:45 as i said1:30:47 to god it's not foolish it is the way1:30:49 that he established in order to grant us1:30:53 forgiveness1:30:54 when christ was in gethsemane1:30:57 and he said to the father father if1:30:59 possible let it this cup1:31:03 go that i don't have to drink it1:31:06 then1:31:07 the father didn't grant his prayer1:31:10 so christ had to go through it and he1:31:13 went through it1:31:15 and1:31:17 he was tortured and crucified in the1:31:19 most1:31:23 so1:31:25 in the most painful way1:31:28 so basically1:31:29 in the new testament that1:31:31 for god that was necessary in order to1:31:35 be able to forgive us1:31:37 so1:31:38 um who are you or1:31:41 who are you1:31:54 why1:31:56 it just seems like an assumption1:31:59 you're just saying that god can't you're1:32:01 saying that god can't forgive sin1:32:03 without a punishment but he does it all1:32:05 the time in the old testament so why was1:32:07 he doing it1:32:09 i would i would say it is not just that1:32:12 it would be not just1:32:15 but the bible is very clear that we are1:32:18 sinners1:32:19 and um if we die and come to god1:32:24 then he will say okay1:32:26 the price of your sins is death and that1:32:29 is very clear in the bible god cannot1:32:31 have1:32:39 do community what is wrong what is evil1:32:42 so1:32:43 there had to be a high spate1:32:46 and christ paid it and it was as it as i1:32:50 as i wrote it was a transaction for you1:32:53 were both at the price1:32:56 therefore glorify god in your body so1:32:58 christ he paid the price on the cross1:33:01 paying for our sins and we were1:33:04 purchased through his own blood so1:33:08 to me that is1:33:17 you you cut out at the end i think i got1:33:19 most of it but uh i still don't see why1:33:23 it's necessary when as i said1:33:25 in the old testament god forgives sins1:33:29 without requiring a sacrifice and1:33:33 without requiring jesus as a sacrifice1:33:36 so i just don't see where you get this1:33:37 idea i mean i mentioned earlier all of1:33:40 the people of jonah what where was the1:33:41 sin sacrifice for them they were1:33:43 forgiven because they repented1:34:03 yeah we have another person here we have1:34:05 another person here waiting1:34:07 um you can try to speak maybe one more1:34:10 time buddy but it's it's just1:34:12 it's not even intelligible at this point1:34:16 okay we can't hear so um the the the1:34:19 sacrificial system in the old testament1:34:23 where animals animals were killed1:34:26 they did not actually remove sins1:34:29 what they did is they covered sins in1:34:32 the way that god didn't see them1:34:35 but they were actually paid when christ1:34:38 died on the cross so that christ didn't1:34:40 pay only for the1:34:42 of the people that came after him but he1:34:46 paid also the price for the same1:34:48 things of the people he lived before him1:34:52 in the old testament the forgiveness1:34:55 became effective to his sacrifice1:35:00 yeah but that's a back projection that's1:35:03 anachronistically looking back on the1:35:05 text of the old testament and making1:35:07 that claim but from the jews perspective1:35:10 they were forgiven in fact god says they1:35:13 were forgiven1:35:14 and he says in numerous places and you1:35:17 have in psalms chapter 50 you have in1:35:19 numerous places where god says i don't1:35:21 delight in sacrifices i delight in a1:35:24 contrite heart he doesn't he doesn't say1:35:26 he needs this sacrifice1:35:28 and i even read from thomas aquinas1:35:30 there where he doesn't say it's1:35:32 necessary he says that if god wanted to1:35:35 he could have done it in another way he1:35:36 just chose to do it this way1:35:39 well it was good and fitting but he1:35:41 didn't have to do it that way1:35:43 yeah the thing that he says that he does1:35:45 not delight in sacrifices sacrifice that1:35:49 doesn't mean that it is not necessary1:35:54 if he would not see it as necessary1:35:56 christ would not have come to suffer on1:35:59 the cross1:36:00 for our sins1:36:04 yeah but again that's just begging the1:36:05 question because you're that's the very1:36:07 thing that's in question you're just1:36:09 assuming it already and what you1:36:11 mentioned earlier actually about mark uh1:36:13 not mark but it's mentioned in1:36:16 several different gospels the story when1:36:19 jesus went and prayed to the father1:36:22 you have in uh you have in mark's1:36:24 version1:36:25 where he doesn't ask the question1:36:28 it's actually a command he said in mark1:36:31 chapter 14 verse 36 and he said abba1:36:34 father1:36:36 all things are possible onto you1:36:40 take away this cup from me1:36:42 nevertheless not what i will but what1:36:45 that will but the point is he makes the1:36:47 statement to the father he says all1:36:50 things are possible for you and then he1:36:52 doesn't ask him he gives a command he1:36:55 says take away this cut from me so if1:36:58 jesus had to do this and you also1:37:01 believe that jesus is god how did he not1:37:03 know that he was supposed to die in the1:37:05 cross1:37:06 why was he telling the father to take1:37:08 the cup away from him1:37:10 well that was his human desire because i1:37:13 knew that what was in front of him would1:37:16 be big suffering1:37:18 but then in the end he said not my but1:37:20 you will1:37:22 shall happen and it was the will they1:37:24 have the same will1:37:27 well christ he was in1:37:30 human nature and1:37:31 of course um he had the1:37:34 desire not to go through this suffering1:37:37 but um the father1:37:39 and they knew that's not as human1:37:42 it's not his human nature doesn't talk1:37:44 he says not what i will i is referring1:37:48 to the person1:37:49 it's the person of christ who's saying1:37:51 this1:37:53 yes but he was in flesh he was also1:37:55 human1:37:56 and he was subdued to1:37:59 human suffering and that was an1:38:01 expression of the suffering that he was1:38:04 going through1:38:05 knowing that he would have to go all1:38:08 through this pain1:38:10 yeah but if he knew that he was going to1:38:12 have to do it why is he1:38:14 complaining about it1:38:17 well because i mean it was an expression1:38:19 of his human situation where he knew1:38:22 that he would have to go through big1:38:24 suffering and of course he he didn't1:38:26 want it but he know1:38:28 it was necessary in order to pay the1:38:31 price for ourselves1:38:34 to save us if christ was god and god1:38:37 wants to reconcile all men to himself1:38:40 why didn't he want it1:38:41 because he knew it what it was going to1:38:44 be big suffering which he in his human1:38:47 situation um he i mean nobody wants to1:38:51 be tortured like he was so he didn't1:38:54 want it but he had to go through it1:38:57 the price for our sins and to pay uh to1:39:00 pay the price in order to save us1:39:03 yeah i just don't see how in the world1:39:06 you can say1:39:07 that it's only christ's human nature1:39:09 when he is saying in the text abba1:39:12 father all things are possible unto you1:39:15 take away this cup from me and then he1:39:18 says i not my will but your will he's1:39:21 using personal pronouns and there's only1:39:24 one subject or person in christ so can't1:39:27 be just merely ascribed to his human1:39:30 nature it's a scribe to the person of1:39:32 christ who was also god1:39:36 yes as you know i believe in the trinity1:39:38 in three persons one substance so1:39:42 he was expressing a desire to the father1:39:46 which was not granted because it was1:39:48 necessary that he would die on the cross1:39:50 in order to save all1:39:52 uh1:39:53 humanity and that was necessary and1:39:56 that's why he went through it1:40:01 yeah i don't know if you guys want to1:40:02 come in if you have any comments because1:40:04 we got two other people waiting1:40:07 uh yeah i was just gonna just um1:40:11 i just wanted to ask so are you saying1:40:13 that1:40:14 prior to1:40:16 uh jesus1:40:18 the uh1:40:20 the people followed the old testament1:40:22 would have understood that repentance1:40:24 would have been sufficient or even1:40:26 animal sacrifice would have been1:40:27 sufficient or do you think that they1:40:29 wouldn't have1:40:33 well if they follow the law of the old1:40:36 testament then they1:40:39 they will be they are safe they will be1:40:40 saved and1:40:42 there is a system of1:40:44 sacrifice in the old testament that they1:40:46 had to obey1:40:48 and if they did obey it then their1:40:50 salvation was granted but as i said1:40:53 previously i think that the animal1:40:56 sacrifices do not remove sins1:40:59 the only sacrifice which removes sin is1:41:02 christ's uh dying on the cross yeah but1:41:05 angela i'm trying to understand that1:41:06 you're trying to say that1:41:08 the1:41:09 original1:41:10 so the people prior to jesus who1:41:12 followed the torah1:41:14 they were saved by following the law1:41:16 they were saved by repentance they were1:41:18 saved by animal sacrifice1:41:20 yeah they weren't saved because they1:41:22 believed that jesus died for their sins1:41:25 is that correct1:41:26 yes that's yes that's correct they they1:41:29 were saved because they obeyed the1:41:31 mosaic class so then the question then1:41:32 becomes1:41:33 well if1:41:35 if then you're now saying1:41:37 but in origin they weren't actually1:41:40 saved1:41:41 they're all that's not what i said no no1:41:43 no that's not what i said i said that1:41:45 animal sacrifices1:41:47 they are just a symbol of what were to1:41:51 come god basically he covered the sins1:41:54 of these people he didn't see them1:41:57 because there were these animal1:41:59 sacrifices which were a symbol1:42:02 of the real sacrifice which was1:42:05 to come which was christ dying on the1:42:07 cross for all humanity yeah but angela1:42:10 did they understand did they know do1:42:13 they think no actually this isn't1:42:15 sufficient what we need is god to1:42:17 incarnate himself upon the earth and1:42:19 then kill himself or he'll be sacrificed1:42:22 you know and then me believe in it in1:42:24 order for me to1:42:26 be saved do they they did they1:42:28 understand that1:42:29 yeah you know i believe in um1:42:32 in a incremental1:42:34 revelation of god which1:42:37 connected with christ becoming man with1:42:40 god himself becoming men yeah but angela1:42:43 you seem to be sort of evading the point1:42:45 the question would be not did it1:42:47 progress1:42:48 later on but did those original people1:42:51 be prior to jesus who followed this one1:42:54 would they have understood exactly what1:42:57 you believe now is absolutely necessary1:43:00 for all of humanity past present and1:43:03 future to be saved1:43:05 would they have believed that1:43:08 well i am not sure if they understood1:43:11 what i just explained now1:43:13 what i believe nonetheless is that if1:43:16 they uh obeyed and followed the mosaic1:43:19 law1:43:20 then they were saved okay so1:43:23 why is it then considered illogical and1:43:26 unreasonable for the islamic position1:43:28 because that's what you initially said1:43:30 because in essence what the prior1:43:33 position was is very much closely1:43:35 aligned to the islamic position which is1:43:38 that if you are following the law1:43:41 you have the correct belief yeah you1:43:44 yeah i believe in one god you1:43:47 uh you know sacrifice when it's1:43:50 necessary for you to do like for example1:43:52 we have sacrifices on the day of hajj1:43:55 and1:43:56 even throughout the year as well you can1:43:58 do as well and you repent to your lord1:44:01 that that is sufficient for1:44:03 for salvation that would have been the1:44:05 exact same position1:44:08 as those people who followed the old1:44:10 testament and the old testament prophets1:44:12 so if it wasn't illogical for them or1:44:15 irrational for them it wouldn't be1:44:17 logically rational for a muslim either1:44:19 would it1:44:20 well1:44:22 for instance is that1:44:24 christ already came he gave the1:44:26 sacrifice which by1:44:29 this very clear is the one which is1:44:30 necessary that we accept that1:44:34 he surrendered christ and he said i am1:44:36 the truth1:44:38 the way1:44:39 and life1:44:40 nobody comes to the father then through1:44:43 me and that means1:44:45 that his sacrifice is essential it is1:44:48 his sacrifice that paid the price for us1:44:52 to be saved1:44:54 now1:44:55 it's not necessary anymore that you do1:44:58 what you just1:45:02 my point is this is my point is this is1:45:05 that1:45:06 that your position is a position based1:45:09 upon what you possibly presume to be1:45:11 divine scripture that's fine you can1:45:14 hold that particular position we can1:45:15 have a discussion later on about that1:45:18 but initially what you were trying to1:45:20 argue is that it was irrational1:45:23 to hold the position that the islamic1:45:25 position was1:45:26 which is different when you're saying1:45:28 it's irrational means that there's a1:45:30 standard which is logical and rational1:45:33 which all human beings whether they1:45:35 lived prior to the revelation given to1:45:38 jesus or jesus's life1:45:40 or after jesus that they would have1:45:42 understood that they would have1:45:43 understood that repentance1:45:45 you know belief in one god1:45:48 doing fulfilling the law that these1:45:50 things would have been sufficient that's1:45:52 not irrational for them you can turn1:45:55 around and say well now we have the1:45:57 scripture that we believe is divine that1:46:00 therefore says we need to now believe in1:46:02 you know x position x belief1:46:05 you know and if you don't do it that's1:46:07 fine but you can't say that our position1:46:08 is irrational you can just simply say1:46:10 goes against my1:46:12 presuppositions about what i believe is1:46:14 scripturally correct1:46:16 well the difference sheriff is that1:46:18 there is always a sacrifice involved1:46:22 also in the old testament muslim1:46:24 sacrifices1:46:26 muslim sacrifice every year muslim1:46:28 sacrifice and uh on the day of dave1:46:32 david1:46:35 okay i i don't understand your1:46:38 religion sufficiently in regards if1:46:41 these sacrifices somehow1:46:43 um1:46:44 should should1:46:46 be something that allah looks upon and1:46:48 then say grants you salvation because of1:46:51 these sacrifices but what i know1:46:54 is that these sacrifices1:46:57 they are in my understanding not1:47:00 necessary anymore because god already1:47:03 gave1:47:04 himself through christ as the perfect1:47:06 sacrifice which removes the sin of all1:47:10 humanity and yeah1:47:12 that's fine you can say it's not1:47:13 necessary now i the law has been1:47:16 abrogated according to your particular1:47:18 position you can say that that's fine1:47:20 but that's a scriptural argument you're1:47:22 you're arguing that you know your1:47:24 scripture says x1:47:26 yeah and therefore1:47:28 b if look if i turn around and i say my1:47:31 scripture says this and then i can't1:47:33 turn around and say you're irrational1:47:35 and illogical in your position i can1:47:37 only say that if you accept my scripture1:47:41 yeah and then that we have an argument1:47:42 and discussion and debate about which1:47:44 scripture is correct and he's a divine1:47:46 authority if you if you don't accept it1:47:49 then you're holding on to your1:47:50 particular tradition and scriptural1:47:52 tradition i'm holding on to my1:47:53 particular tradition in scriptural1:47:55 position and that's fine you can have1:47:57 that but i can't turn around and say1:47:59 just because you don't adopt my1:48:01 particular scriptural position that1:48:03 you're being irrational or illogical if1:48:07 we've not had the discussion about why1:48:09 the scripture is correct in the first1:48:10 place1:48:11 i i just don't see i i look you gave the1:48:14 analogy you gave the analogy of the1:48:16 father who forgives uh the rapist or1:48:19 murder of his daughter or son1:48:21 and you're saying well that's irrational1:48:23 well it's not irrational because that's1:48:24 exactly how1:48:26 the jews who followed the old testament1:48:28 prior to jesus understood how god would1:48:31 forgive you know secondly you give the1:48:34 example about the judge and again you're1:48:36 saying well this is reasonable well it1:48:38 wasn't reasonable because that's not how1:48:40 the jews who followed the old testament1:48:42 understood1:48:44 so both of those positions they don't1:48:46 seem to be grounded upon rationality1:48:49 they just seem to be look i have a1:48:51 scriptural presupposition1:48:53 therefore i'm trying to1:48:55 uh you know that's the reason why i1:48:56 believe it1:48:59 well i disagree with you here i think i1:49:02 understood that1:49:04 um salvation1:49:07 comes through obeying the mosaic law1:49:12 okay um what else did you say1:49:16 yeah but we we we would say we would say1:49:18 as muslims we would say1:49:20 four yes yes1:49:24 oh god1:49:27 yes i'm sorry1:49:28 and the other thing is that i hear jake1:49:31 very clearly saying1:49:33 that allah can simply1:49:36 forgive1:49:37 a muslim1:49:38 without sacrifices just one thing comes1:49:41 to allah and says okay i repent for my1:49:44 sins1:49:46 and say okay come into heaven it's all1:49:48 right1:49:51 and angelo at angelo jake gave the1:49:54 example of jonah1:49:55 and the people of jonah1:49:57 to say that what was their sacrifice1:50:00 were they forgiven just for repentance1:50:04 that's what i am talking about yeah but1:50:06 then he's given the answer of saying1:50:08 christ died and everything is going to1:50:10 be back projected onto people in the1:50:13 past so it's really an unfalsifiable1:50:15 theory because anything you appeal to1:50:17 into old testament even if there was no1:50:19 sin sacrifice you're going to say christ1:50:22 took care of that and it's back1:50:23 projected so you you really can't get1:50:26 anywhere with that comment1:50:29 okay but i would like to have a1:50:31 clarification here can you come to to1:50:35 allah when you die1:50:37 and then be forgiven with an with any1:50:40 precondition and any anything whatsoever1:50:44 you did no you need to simply say to you1:50:47 okay you are forgiven no you need1:50:48 repentance1:50:50 okay so you can just say oh i am sorry1:50:52 for what i did and then he says come1:50:54 here1:50:56 do you think repentance doesn't come1:50:58 after death1:50:59 yeah and also angelo do you think1:51:02 repentance is just simply somebody1:51:03 turning around saying oh1:51:04 i'm sorry judge you know please let me1:51:06 up and just say okay then finally i will1:51:08 let you off no of course it's not the1:51:11 idea of toba the idea of repentance1:51:13 within the islamic paradigm is that a1:51:15 person feels absolute regret for what1:51:18 they did that if they were to be placed1:51:21 in the exact same position1:51:23 yeah that they would not repeat the same1:51:25 mistake yeah that they are seeking as1:51:28 best as possible to recompense the1:51:31 mistake that they made through righteous1:51:34 actions through repentance and that1:51:36 therefore god knowing what is within the1:51:38 intention in the heart of a human being1:51:40 would know that if he was placed in that1:51:42 same position he would not repeat it he1:51:45 is therefore being sincere1:51:47 yeah this idea so what happens yeah okay1:51:50 so what happens with the the sins that1:51:54 that person has committed on that moment1:51:56 of repentance well the sin is sin is1:51:59 upon whom who is he sinning against1:52:04 god allah right so god is forgiving it1:52:07 is he facing it1:52:09 god doesn't have to punish every single1:52:11 sin1:52:13 so you are confirming exactly what i am1:52:15 saying1:52:17 no it's not that1:52:20 what it is is that look at angelo you1:52:21 believe that god has to punish all sins1:52:23 yes1:52:25 yes1:52:26 why1:52:28 because it's just why is it just1:52:32 because1:52:33 um1:52:34 could god not just forgive a person who1:52:36 repents just forgives a person who1:52:39 sincerely repents1:52:42 the question is would it be just a1:52:44 tangible could you forgive a person can1:52:47 you forgive a person without exacting1:52:50 punishment for that person can you do it1:52:52 yes1:52:53 yes i can do it now the question is1:52:56 you're just person1:53:01 i'm sorry1:53:02 you broke up there1:53:04 yeah now the question is even if i can1:53:07 do it is it just1:53:09 are you so you're saying it's not just1:53:11 for you to forgive people1:53:14 that's not what i'm asking i am asking1:53:17 is it just that someone1:53:20 rapes tortures and kills your daughter1:53:24 for fun1:53:25 and then you say and then he comes to1:53:27 you and says1:53:28 sharif i am very sorry and he will whine1:53:31 in front of you and then you will say to1:53:34 him oh okay i see that you you will not1:53:37 do it again1:53:39 what you're saying is another guy comes1:53:42 in and says you know what i'm sorry1:53:44 about your daughter my friend you know1:53:46 there's something wrong with him but i1:53:48 want to take the punishment instead of1:53:51 him even though i had nothing to do with1:53:53 it so i'm going to go to jail for him1:53:55 what are you going to say to him1:53:59 well that is that is not what i am what1:54:02 we are talking about your doctrine no1:54:04 you're not you're saying1:54:06 you are1:54:09 kill me instead of killing the guy who1:54:12 killed my daughter that's what you're1:54:14 saying1:54:16 shifting the girl you're saying somebody1:54:18 has to be punished but guess what it has1:54:19 to be an innocent person has to be1:54:22 punished1:54:24 you are shifting the goal post jake what1:54:26 the hell oh that's what you're doing1:54:29 now listen what i want to to know from1:54:31 you sharif is this1:54:33 again1:54:34 yeah if someone does what they just1:54:36 described and he comes to you and just1:54:39 whines and says oh i am very sorry for1:54:42 it it's a person okay so angelo if a1:54:44 person comes to me yeah and he's done1:54:46 all these heinous crimes and he whines1:54:48 to me they're not i'm not that's not1:54:51 repentance though is it1:54:53 yeah and there are by the way there are1:54:55 a tangent i don't know if you know but1:54:57 there are cases yeah where a person has1:55:01 murdered somebody's family members1:55:03 and the person the family member the1:55:05 closest family member has turned around1:55:07 and forgiven the murderer because they1:55:09 believed that the murderer was sincerely1:55:12 repentant yeah there are christians who1:55:14 have done this1:55:15 yeah are you saying that the christian1:55:17 who did who forgave their murder the1:55:20 person who murdered their daughter or1:55:22 their son was wrong to do so1:55:25 was being unjust1:55:28 well all i can give you is very clear1:55:30 from the bible and i will quote here1:55:32 from first timothy 2 5-6 for there is1:55:36 one god and one mediator between god and1:55:39 man the man jesus christ who gave1:55:42 himself as ransom1:55:45 for all1:55:46 to be testified in due time1:55:49 okay and knowing that you were not1:55:52 redeemed with corruptible things like1:55:55 silver and gold1:55:57 from your aimless conduct received by1:55:59 tradition from your fathers but with the1:56:02 precious blood of christ as a lamb1:56:05 without blemish1:56:07 and without spot1:56:09 so these are all terms used to describe1:56:12 a financial transaction1:56:17 i'm trying to understand though1:56:19 are you trying to make an argument say1:56:21 this is what my scripture says1:56:23 therefore i that's the reason why i1:56:24 believe it are you trying to make a1:56:26 rational argument are you're trying to1:56:27 say no it's rational to hold on to this1:56:29 particular position meaning independent1:56:32 of scripture i can justify this1:56:34 particular position using rationality1:56:37 and logic and reason1:56:40 because if you're just simply saying1:56:41 this is my scripture then that's fine1:56:43 okay that's your scripture i don't think1:56:45 it's rational because of what jake said1:56:47 because it doesn't seem reasonable to me1:56:50 that if a person commits sin that you1:56:52 punish another person who hasn't1:56:53 committed that sin it seems reasonable1:56:55 to me that if the person commits sin he1:56:58 bears the responsibility either he will1:57:00 be forgiven through his repentance and1:57:03 say repentance because we believe god is1:57:06 the most merciful and the most forgiving1:57:09 yeah not human beings but god himself or1:57:13 you know he will be punished by god yeah1:57:16 and all of this would be considered uh1:57:18 justice for us whether god chooses to1:57:23 uh forgive the person due to god's1:57:26 knowledge of the person's sincere1:57:28 repentance and therefore if he was1:57:30 placed in that same situation he1:57:32 wouldn't do it or the fact that if god1:57:34 knows that this person is not being1:57:36 sincere in his repentance or hasn't1:57:38 sought repentance and that he will be1:57:40 punished and that would also be1:57:41 considered justice for us but the idea1:57:43 that you know an innocent person has to1:57:47 be1:57:48 punished for the sins that somebody else1:57:50 commits just it doesn't make sense to me1:57:53 and a lot of muslims find it very1:57:55 difficult and problematic1:57:58 well i go with the revelation i believe1:58:01 that the new testament is true i believe1:58:04 that jesus christ is the messiah1:58:07 which was prophesied in the old1:58:09 testament that would come it is also1:58:11 very clear in josiah 531:58:14 which says that christ would be1:58:18 suffering the lamb would suffer for our1:58:20 sins so that was foretold that it would1:58:23 happen so it is not about what i think1:58:26 is rational it is about what god reveals1:58:30 to us1:58:32 yeah i believe1:58:35 that the new testament the bible is out1:58:38 of brief that it is god's revelation and1:58:41 that1:58:42 we are1:58:43 all to believe okay1:58:45 let's read what the bible says let me1:58:47 read for you what the bible says okay1:58:50 psalm 511:58:52 verse 161:58:55 and 171:58:56 for thou disiest not sacrificed else i1:59:01 would give it1:59:02 thou delightest not in burnt offering1:59:06 the sacrifices of god1:59:08 are a broken spirit a broken and1:59:12 contrite heart o god thou will not1:59:15 despise1:59:16 so what is he saying there the psalmist1:59:19 is saying look god you don't care about1:59:22 these sacrifices you don't want1:59:23 sacrifices you want a contrite heart1:59:26 this is the muslim position this is what1:59:28 the muslim is saying1:59:30 so you're talking about scripture but1:59:32 you're using a new testament lens to1:59:35 back projected onto the old testament1:59:37 when they're not in conformity you have1:59:39 the same thing this is not just one1:59:41 verse or jake uh cherry-picking you have1:59:44 the same thing in hosea chapter 6 verse1:59:47 6 what for i desire mercy which is what1:59:51 we're saying muslims interestingly1:59:53 enough are our god i would argue is more1:59:57 merciful than yours for i desire mercy2:00:01 and not sacrificed and the knowledge of2:00:04 god more than burnt offerings so you2:00:08 want to say oh you stick to the bible in2:00:10 scripture but then when we quote these2:00:12 things you have no answer for it you2:00:14 just go back to the new testament and2:00:15 these things that paul said or2:00:18 other people you're not dealing with2:00:20 these texts2:00:24 tv2:00:25 the people of the old testament had an2:00:28 understanding about what was to come i2:00:31 can quote here you say 53 it is very2:00:35 clear it says i'm surely here it's not2:00:39 jesus our okay it surely he took up our2:00:44 pain and pour our suffering yet we2:00:47 considered him punished by god stricken2:00:50 by him and afflicted but he was pierced2:00:54 for our transgressions2:00:58 isaiah 53 when no because i'm responding2:01:01 we let you go on long enough actually2:01:04 i'm gonna pull the plug on you at this2:01:06 point because we've let you go on for2:01:08 long enough you say that god cannot2:01:11 forgive without sacrifice he can't do2:01:13 this it's unjust if he doesn't forgive2:01:15 without sacrifice and you say you want2:01:17 to appeal to scripture which is not2:01:19 you're not really presenting a rational2:01:21 point of view you're just appealing to2:01:23 scripture then when i appeal to biblical2:01:25 texts now you're going into the old2:01:27 testament and trying to bring up isaiah2:01:29 53 which is a hotly contested supposed2:01:33 prophecy of the messiah who was not god2:01:36 in that text who was not who was2:01:38 supposed to actually have a lineage and2:01:40 all these things that2:01:42 prove that it wasn't actually jesus2:01:44 christ which the author himself says2:01:46 that it was israel and other places but2:01:48 the whole point is when i just read2:01:51 those two verses you didn't actually say2:01:53 okay jake i hear what you're saying and2:01:55 then respond to them you just went to2:01:58 something totally different that had2:01:59 nothing to do with it2:02:01 jake i responded in regards of that2:02:03 already god he was he is not pleased2:02:07 in regards of sacrifices he wants that2:02:10 people are just but that doesn't remove2:02:14 the need for sacrifices to punish sins2:02:18 it does it does he says i desire mercy2:02:21 and not sacrifice2:02:24 he is expressing his desires he is not2:02:27 expressing necessity he's talking about2:02:30 his own mercy if his mercy is better2:02:34 than sacrifice why would he choose if2:02:37 god is to do the most perfect action and2:02:40 require what is best why would he want2:02:42 something that is less than what he2:02:44 desires why would he want to sacrifice2:02:46 if he desires mercy god doesn't get what2:02:49 he desires2:02:50 yeah he is merciful he is graceful and2:02:54 he can2:02:55 be that2:02:56 because there is a punishment for sins2:03:00 so he can be judged2:03:02 and merciful2:03:03 at the same time and before2:03:06 i'd just like to quote here2:03:09 um josiah 53 if you permit and then i2:03:12 will um leave time for others to to come2:03:15 in and interact is that okay2:03:19 uh yeah if you quickly okay so yeah2:03:22 quickly so surely he took up our pain2:03:26 and bore our suffering2:03:28 yet we considered him punished by god2:03:31 stricken by him and afflicted but he was2:03:34 pierced for our transgressions he was2:03:38 crushed for our inquities the punishment2:03:42 that brought us peace was on him and by2:03:46 his wounds we are healed we all like2:03:50 sheep have gone astray each of us has2:03:53 turned to our own way and the lord has2:03:56 laid on him the inquity2:03:59 of us all he has oppressed and afflicted2:04:02 he was oppressed and afflicted yet he2:04:05 did not open his mouth he was led like a2:04:08 lamp to the slaughter and as a sheep2:04:11 before its shearers is silent so he did2:04:16 not open his mouth2:04:17 by oppression and judgment he was taken2:04:20 away yet who of his generation protested2:04:24 for he was cut off from the land of the2:04:27 living2:04:28 for the transgression of my people2:04:31 he was punished2:04:33 so i think this is very clear and it is2:04:37 a one of the most powerful prophecies2:04:40 which was fulfilled in the messiah which2:04:43 is jesus christ christ2:04:48 yeah i think it's so obviously not jesus2:04:50 christ also considering the fact that2:04:52 there are what's uh called other servant2:04:54 songs in isaiah in chapter 42 and2:04:58 chapter 49 in which he explicitly states2:05:02 that the servant who is mentioned2:05:05 is israel2:05:06 but we're just gonna throw that out the2:05:08 window even though he just said it three2:05:10 chapters earlier it has nothing to do2:05:13 with it so anyway appreciate you coming2:05:15 on but we're gonna have to move on to2:05:16 the next person here2:05:18 yes thank you very much for helping me2:05:20 on the show yeah i appreciate it and uh2:05:23 have a good uh good evening bye guys2:05:25 thank you take care2:05:28 jake does this2:05:30 super chat2:05:32 neil castro jake that means that the2:05:35 whole idea of jesus becoming a sacrifice2:05:37 is completely a failed idea based on the2:05:40 ver that verse of the book of prophet2:05:43 isaiah2:05:44 um2:05:46 well i re i think you might be confused2:05:48 with the one i was reading from hosea2:05:51 uh hosea was the one i read but2:05:54 yeah2:05:56 so thank you for the super chat neil2:05:59 um oh we've got john fisher 2.0 here2:06:03 hey jake how was your time in morocco2:06:06 that was good thank you2:06:08 not too bad uh glad here so uh2:06:11 yeah um soteriology is the topic of2:06:13 discussion2:06:15 yeah that's right2:06:17 okay so as you know i don't take the2:06:20 line that the sacrifice is strictly2:06:22 necessary i do think that god could2:06:24 forgive if he wanted to2:06:26 or you know just take on a different2:06:28 means of doing it but um2:06:31 i do want to say one thing though i do2:06:34 think that you could still make a2:06:36 probabilistic claim or a claim that the2:06:39 sacrifice that god does undergo with the2:06:41 crucifixion is a more fitting one and2:06:44 basically that's pretty much why it came2:06:46 here to run that so if you guys want to2:06:49 go down that path that's all good2:06:52 yeah that sounds interesting yeah and2:06:55 also um what your theory of atonement is2:06:58 would be nice okay so the theory of2:07:00 atonement that i take is2:07:02 um2:07:03 so it's the moral governance view um but2:07:06 i take a a line where it's more centered2:07:09 around the kingship of christ so2:07:13 basically the idea is that god forms2:07:16 covenants with his people2:07:18 and these covenants are done2:07:21 by means of having some kind of central2:07:26 sign of the covenants so the central2:07:28 sign of the old testament was2:07:29 circumcision that's how you entered into2:07:31 the people2:07:32 in the new covenant that is through2:07:34 baptism and of course you have the other2:07:36 sacraments as well2:07:38 in the old covenant you had other2:07:40 sacraments or rights so basically animal2:07:43 sacrifices in the temple were one sort2:07:45 of2:07:46 sacraments you also had marriages as2:07:49 well in the new covenant you have2:07:51 marriages you have other things but they2:07:54 all but the difference between the first2:07:56 and the second is2:07:57 in the first they're forensic that means2:08:00 that they only work by the means of2:08:04 god not punishing people for sins so it2:08:08 would be a sort of forgiveness that2:08:09 would be exacted by god withholding2:08:12 punishment or retribution2:08:14 in the new testament the sin is actually2:08:16 cleansed from you by means of his grace2:08:18 given through the sacraments by means of2:08:21 the atonements so2:08:23 going so2:08:24 that's how it's done uh the sacrifice2:08:27 done at cavalry its main purpose is2:08:31 as a sign of two things the first is it2:08:35 shows god's2:08:37 hatred of sin in providing a just2:08:39 punishment uh to jesus christ and christ2:08:43 is2:08:44 worthy of taking on this punishment2:08:46 because he takes on the office of2:08:48 king of all of humanity and the king and2:08:50 the head of the church and the same way2:08:52 a king can be punished for the crime2:08:55 of a nation so too can christ by2:08:58 voluntarily taking up that position be2:09:00 punished on our behalf as well and this2:09:03 would be a second office that he takes2:09:05 in addition to being the moral governor2:09:06 of the universe2:09:07 as god himself2:09:09 and by doing so um2:09:12 uh god in his2:09:15 god inflicting this form of2:09:17 punishment2:09:18 removes the sin of everyone who has2:09:20 binded themselves onto christ by their2:09:22 baptism and through participating in the2:09:25 sacraments themselves and that's what2:09:28 makes this2:09:29 a fitting2:09:31 form of punishment2:09:32 for one's sins so our understanding is2:09:35 god does this because of its fittingness2:09:38 because on the one hand he gets to2:09:40 exercise the virtue of mercy2:09:42 by means of2:09:44 providing an alternative form of2:09:47 of punishment for the person to undergo2:09:49 rather than hellfire but on the other2:09:51 hand it's done in proportion to the2:09:54 crime um because the head of the church2:09:57 or of the nation is punished instead of2:10:00 the members so2:10:01 um so you get both virtues actually2:10:04 shown2:10:06 and also you bind yourself to the church2:10:09 you have a visible way of showing that2:10:11 you are part of this community and2:10:14 you also get god's grace as well and2:10:17 it's also and it's fitting for two2:10:19 reasons one it shows god's uh hatred of2:10:22 sin in a visual way2:10:24 through the crucifixion and the second2:10:26 reason is2:10:27 because god gets to suffer on behalf of2:10:30 his people this is considered to be the2:10:32 highest thing someone who exhibits the2:10:35 virtue of being a king can actually do2:10:39 so in the islamic tradition god is2:10:41 considered2:10:42 to be king that's one of his 99 names2:10:45 i believe2:10:46 and in the christian religion god is2:10:48 also considered the king as well2:10:50 um in fact if you look at2:10:53 other kings i believe cromwell ii was2:10:55 beheaded um because of the fact that he2:10:59 wanted to keep his title his monarchy2:11:01 and so did the people of england2:11:03 and the and cromwell executed him2:11:06 because he considered cromwell2:11:08 considered his role as king to be2:11:10 something of divine decree he thought it2:11:12 was not just a civil thing it was also a2:11:15 religious thing and it was not just2:11:17 considered to be an act of fidelity to2:11:20 his people it was also considered to be2:11:21 an act of martyrdom as well fulfilling2:11:24 god's will2:11:25 and2:11:27 and ask a question if how how you so2:11:30 true so you're when you when you're2:11:32 saying the king can be like can take on2:11:34 a punishment right yeah um what's what's2:11:37 the2:11:39 what's the justification behind that2:11:41 right2:11:42 yeah so god yeah so vicarious punishment2:11:45 is something god can exact in both2:11:46 religions i'll appeal to the islamic2:11:49 texts so in the quran for example god2:11:51 can actually request of abraham to give2:11:53 up his son2:11:55 um what i don't know isaac it's some i2:11:58 think some minorities say isaac but the2:11:59 majority is2:12:01 ishmael he asks2:12:03 of abraham to give up his son now if god2:12:05 can ask of that on behalf of somebody2:12:08 else who who himself has no sin afortier2:12:11 i don't know why he couldn't ask the2:12:12 guilty to hand over a king for example2:12:16 so like i could just appeal to special2:12:18 revelation there but2:12:20 just i don't under i don't understand2:12:22 the the link so2:12:23 so so god asked2:12:25 yeah yeah if you could if you could2:12:27 elaborate on that i don't understand so2:12:29 is right so god asked abraham to give up2:12:33 his son isaac uh for death right in the2:12:35 quran2:12:38 oh yeah yeah okay2:12:40 was god just was god being unjust in2:12:42 doing that2:12:45 um no no he was could2:12:51 yeah could god have could abraham have2:12:53 said um sorry god that is beyond what2:12:56 you can ask of me you can't ask me to2:12:58 turn over an innocent person to you2:13:02 yeah so if god can ask um2:13:05 if god can ask abraham to turn over his2:13:07 son i don't i i'm not sure why god could2:13:10 not ask you know entire people to hand2:13:12 over their king uh for the sake of2:13:14 punishment but why what's wrong i'm not2:13:17 i mean what's2:13:18 where is the analogy like there's no2:13:20 punishment in the king this is in the2:13:21 case of adam uh sorry in the case of2:13:24 ibrahim2:13:26 so oh oh it's from oh it's an argument2:13:30 it's i think in mind it's called an2:13:31 argumentum ad uh yeah an argumentum2:13:35 afortyori so from the greater thesis so2:13:38 if god can ask abraham to turn over an2:13:41 innocent person2:13:42 uh for death after tiara he can ask a2:13:45 guilty people to turn over an innocent2:13:48 uh person for death even if it is for2:13:50 the case of punishment and2:13:53 basically by justifying the stronger2:13:55 claim i have justified the weaker claim2:13:57 no but there's no punishment in the case2:13:59 of ismail he's not being punished for2:14:00 anything i mean god2:14:02 god takes everybody's life i mean2:14:03 there's no there's in in in the case of2:14:06 prophet ismail2:14:08 he's not being punished for anything and2:14:09 prophet ibrahim killing him if it did2:14:12 happen would be2:14:13 by virtue of2:14:15 ibrahim's knowledge absolute knowledge2:14:18 of2:14:19 you know the revelation that came to him2:14:21 from allah so there's no difference2:14:22 between allah taking the life of a2:14:24 person and commanding a person and a2:14:27 prophet in this case2:14:28 to do that that's why2:14:30 i just don't see how that can link to2:14:35 the whole how you can make the jump from2:14:37 that2:14:38 to2:14:39 justifying the punishment of an innocent2:14:41 king on behalf of2:14:43 his people2:14:45 all right um so2:14:47 right so2:14:48 here's my question then one we're still2:14:50 a bit confused actually about2:14:53 the governmental theory in general um2:14:56 all right i'll2:14:58 just let me address abdul's thing first2:14:59 then jake i'll get to your point second2:15:01 all right so the fir all right so um2:15:04 so abdul uh the question i would have to2:15:06 ask you is why can god ask2:15:09 an innocent person to turn over their2:15:11 life2:15:12 or an innocent person to turn over the2:15:14 life of somebody else2:15:17 because2:15:18 all life belongs to god we don't think2:15:20 death is a punishment all right does2:15:22 christ's life belong to god2:15:25 um yeah of course okay so you can2:15:27 request that i don't really see any2:15:29 i don't i don't okay so maybe you're2:15:30 maybe i didn't hear the whole thing2:15:34 but then that's um2:15:36 that christ's life doesn't belong to god2:15:38 and god can't take christ's life2:15:40 right right so the question is whether2:15:42 whether2:15:44 substitutionary atonement makes sense in2:15:46 the sense that does it really2:15:48 you know render us um2:15:51 you know pure and does it really do does2:15:54 it really do justice in the case of you2:15:57 know uh wiping away our sins and and and2:16:00 uh you know retributing us for for for2:16:02 whatever sense we committed that's why2:16:04 i'm not trying to i want to get clear on2:16:07 the the theory because i don't think it2:16:09 actually says that2:16:11 i don't think it's substitutionary in2:16:13 that way2:16:14 yeah i mean substitutionary in the sense2:16:16 that uh christ takes on a punishment2:16:19 um on behalf of the whole covenant on2:16:21 behalf of the whole people so it's a2:16:23 so basically i is an individual2:16:26 um2:16:27 yeah but i guess you should i guess you2:16:29 should explain the difference between2:16:32 governmental and penal substitution2:16:34 because there's all right so government2:16:36 difference yeah governmental views hold2:16:38 that christ dies um for a collective or2:16:42 for an institution or a nation because a2:16:44 nation is more than just the sum total2:16:46 of each individual member it's2:16:48 considered to be its own sort of entity2:16:51 god punishes entire nations for example2:16:54 um so for ex so just as an instance when2:16:57 god punished egypt it didn't mean2:16:59 children or the innocent were spared or2:17:02 when god punished evil people with noah2:17:04 by sending the flood children were not2:17:07 spared they were also taken up and2:17:10 killed in that punishment for the sins2:17:12 of their parents so2:17:14 yeah but wouldn't the penal substitution2:17:17 say the same thing i don't yeah yeah2:17:21 yeah so the different right so the2:17:22 difference is when god punishes a nation2:17:24 he doesn't just punish the offenders the2:17:26 people who committed the crimes he2:17:28 punishes the entirety of the nation2:17:31 whether it's the individuals or their2:17:33 children or2:17:34 even those who might not have committed2:17:36 any crime themselves personally but have2:17:38 just or would have just been among them2:17:41 so2:17:42 so that would be the main difference2:17:44 there yeah i don't see the difference2:17:46 because in penal substitution2:17:49 the the underlying2:17:51 a presupposition is that everyone has2:17:53 sinned and fallen sure the glory of god2:17:56 anyway so it's2:17:57 it amounts to the same thing i don't2:17:59 really see the difference the difference2:18:01 is the effects are only given to people2:18:03 who are a member of the nation2:18:05 themselves if you don't have christ as2:18:07 your king you do not get the benefits of2:18:10 the sacrifice so for example i don't2:18:13 understand how if penal substitution is2:18:15 true2:18:16 on that model why you know and christ2:18:19 dies for the world2:18:20 that everyone isn't just forgiven their2:18:22 sense i understand it on this model2:18:24 because it only extends to the covenant2:18:26 those who are tied into his life death2:18:29 and resurrection well it's conditional2:18:31 upon the acceptance that's what most2:18:33 people are going to say yeah it's2:18:35 conditional upon the acceptance but the2:18:36 acceptance brings you into the covenant2:18:39 itself2:18:40 so calvinist also bring up the issue of2:18:42 if christ dies once for you and you2:18:44 apostasize and you come back in it seems2:18:46 like he has to die twice it's like a2:18:48 sort of double jeopardy but my2:18:50 understanding is christ only dies for2:18:52 the church whether or not you are a2:18:54 member of the church is a different2:18:56 issue when we say christ dies for the2:18:58 church we are saying that he's dying for2:19:01 an institution or a covenant and whether2:19:03 or not you are a member of it is tied2:19:06 into whether or not you participate in2:19:08 the rights of the church so2:19:10 baptism2:19:12 uh2:19:13 so baptism confirmation um all the all2:19:16 the sacraments2:19:17 basically are ways of participating in2:19:19 god's grace in this church2:19:22 and you get those graces by2:19:24 uh by first the baptism and then the2:19:26 others usually tend to follow from there2:19:28 and those sacraments bind you2:19:30 to the life death and resurrection of2:19:32 christ himself on the cross2:19:34 and the reason why and the reason why2:19:36 kings can often take the place of their2:19:38 people2:19:39 is because they're their head they're2:19:42 their leader2:19:43 and when they accept the office they2:19:45 also accept those various2:19:47 responsibilities punishments2:19:50 and and so forth you're tied in very2:19:52 heavily to the to the person otherwise2:19:55 uh the monarchy just becomes a sort of2:19:57 despotism and i don't really consider2:20:00 and so that's the first thing the second2:20:02 thing is often when god punishes nations2:20:05 he doesn't just punish the people who do2:20:07 who commit the crimes children are often2:20:10 punished as well2:20:11 um as well as others they're i don't2:20:14 like not i'm not i mean we don't we2:20:16 don't believe that in the sense that2:20:17 like the children aren't being2:20:19 punished in in that sense but i mean in2:20:22 the flood of noah we're kill where there2:20:24 are no children killed2:20:25 but i mean i don't know but um2:20:28 what no they think i think i think a2:20:30 fair reading would say that even2:20:32 children suffered no no what i'm saying2:20:34 is i don't know to the specific question2:20:35 i'm not saying that no no children i2:20:37 mean so children die i i'm just saying2:20:39 that i wouldn't see that as necessarily2:20:42 a punishment for say yeah like like per2:20:44 se like the like the the event itself2:20:47 was a punishment however there could be2:20:49 individuals who you know happen to be2:20:52 uh uh you know victims of the same event2:20:55 that aren't necessarily2:20:57 punished by that in the sense that they2:20:59 are liable for the crime2:21:02 but uh2:21:03 because everybody's gonna die anyway so2:21:04 it could have been a flood2:21:06 the person could have died like drowning2:21:08 or something without it necessarily2:21:10 being a punishment2:21:12 so although2:21:14 i'm just confused i don't i'm confused2:21:16 by that response because i don't see how2:21:18 uh two people can suffer from the same2:21:21 thing namely a flood and it'd be a2:21:23 punishment for one person and not be a2:21:25 punishment for another person2:21:27 well from the islamic paradigm that's2:21:29 really works perfectly because the idea2:21:31 i don't see it i don't i don't so so2:21:33 both of you so let's let me2:21:35 ground both of us can die drowning in2:21:37 the sea right2:21:39 right and and2:21:40 one of it can be considered as2:21:43 and in one instance it you you could2:21:45 conceive of it being a punishment2:21:47 from god2:21:49 uh for something you did or whatever2:21:50 right2:21:51 i drowned in the same sea it's not2:21:53 necessarily a punishment2:21:54 that's the point so it's the same thing2:21:56 it's it's like the same it's it's god's2:21:59 creation and and it's god allowing both2:22:01 things to happen i just don't see why it2:22:03 has to be2:22:05 the same like you have to attach to it2:22:07 the same kind of like purpose it doesn't2:22:09 have to be like that2:22:10 so if i'm understanding this properly2:22:15 a couple of things one2:22:17 in the first instance if me and you are2:22:19 out in sea and god destroys the boat as2:22:21 punishment for sin2:22:22 and he has the power to save me but2:22:24 doesn't and i don't commit any sin of my2:22:26 own but it still2:22:28 warrants the taking of my own life2:22:31 i think i'm the unfortunate victim here2:22:34 rather than your life is going to be2:22:36 taken anyway the point is that the point2:22:38 for sin like everyone else that's how2:22:39 original that's what that's that's the2:22:41 presupposition that's your side that's2:22:43 the pre-sale position you don't know2:22:45 what i'm saying yeah it's a2:22:46 presupposition i have to make sense of2:22:49 it i don't understand how everyone's2:22:50 life can be taken from them without sin2:22:53 in islam because islam lacks original2:22:55 sin so i'm not sure how you can so yeah2:22:58 to say that you have to assume that2:22:59 death is a punishment we don't we don't2:23:02 see death as a punishment if it's not a2:23:04 then i don't really understand how you2:23:06 can give me that scenario where god2:23:09 kills a guilty person2:23:11 kills an innocent person it's a2:23:12 punishment for the guilty person but not2:23:14 a punishment for an innocent so okay so2:23:17 okay okay so so let's let's so for2:23:19 example in islam there's there's uh2:23:21 there's the idea of a kaffara or2:23:23 something that's like a penance for that2:23:25 your your um2:23:28 something that elevates the muslim like2:23:30 a a let's say an illness you go through2:23:32 that elevates you in ranks right2:23:35 we wouldn't say that's a punishment per2:23:37 say it's it has a purpose and you you2:23:40 through2:23:41 patience and perseverance and stuff like2:23:43 that you pat pass the test and it2:23:45 elevates you in ranks well but that same2:23:47 illness to a wicked person2:23:50 can be a punishment i mean what's it's2:23:52 the same it's the same thing but you can2:23:54 conceive of them2:23:56 having different purposes i don't see2:23:57 what's wrong with that2:23:59 okay so2:24:01 so it's like a pandemic like a pandemic2:24:04 a pandemic is going to affect good and2:24:06 bad people2:24:07 but we would say for the good person2:24:10 it affects it affects him in a way which2:24:12 wipes away his sins2:24:14 raises his rank he demonstrates the2:24:17 courage and the patience and2:24:19 perseverance so he shows them soul2:24:21 building characteristics but for the bad2:24:23 person it's a punishment2:24:25 yeah what what okay but what soul2:24:27 building characteristics can you give to2:24:29 an infant who dies2:24:32 there is no soul building no that's not2:24:34 yeah but2:24:35 i think you're no2:24:36 challenge back into the2:24:38 analogy2:24:40 and even and also to the drowning2:24:42 analogy because because no no no so let2:24:44 me give you2:24:46 what i was saying was that death john2:24:48 death2:24:49 we were not assuming death is a2:24:50 punishment and i was just giving you and2:24:51 you're saying well how can this one2:24:53 event2:24:54 that you call a punishment2:24:56 uh you know2:24:58 cause the death of of of certain people2:25:01 without it being a punishment for them2:25:02 and i was just and so what i'm doing is2:25:04 i'm giving you an analogy to show you2:25:06 that2:25:07 the same thing can be used for two2:25:09 different purposes in a similar way2:25:11 death so so so when when when the people2:25:14 when the people who2:25:16 a lot of those uh people the past who2:25:18 sinned and they were destroyed or2:25:19 whatever2:25:20 if they didn't sin it's not like they2:25:21 weren't gonna die that's not that's not2:25:23 an islamic point of view the point isn't2:25:24 that oh you sinned therefore you're2:25:26 gonna die it's like2:25:28 the way you die and what's waiting for2:25:30 you after death i mean uh the the the2:25:33 point here is that what2:25:36 what you want to say is that well the2:25:38 concept of death in and of itself2:25:42 is2:25:42 uh2:25:43 you know can only be made sense of in2:25:45 light of it being a punishment i don't i2:25:48 don't see why that has to be the case2:25:50 so you're just we're just moving from2:25:52 one world to another yeah it's like2:25:54 somebody who's who's martyred it's not2:25:56 well i wouldn't say it as a punishment2:25:59 i mean i mean if i kill your child it's2:26:01 and i tell you well he's just going from2:26:03 one world to another i think you would2:26:06 take a lot of umbrage with that sort of2:26:07 perspective like death has this very2:26:10 heaviest thing it's called the last of2:26:11 the enemies for a reason in our religion2:26:13 but even2:26:14 so you equate you equate the murdering2:26:17 of a child with god causing the death of2:26:19 children that's the so that you see2:26:21 those two is the same thing2:26:22 what i'm saying is death isn't something2:26:24 to take lightly that i'm not taking it2:26:26 lightly i'm just i'm just saying you2:26:28 guys were sorry2:26:29 no so so so so somebody murdering a baby2:26:33 versus god causing the death of a baby2:26:36 do you see those two as the same thing2:26:38 because clearly if someone kills my2:26:40 child2:26:41 yeah but then but then do i see god2:26:43 taking the life of a child in the same2:26:45 way i see a person killing a child2:26:48 god has a right to take away from my2:26:50 perspective or paradigm and i know that2:26:52 word period i'm shifting i get it but on2:26:55 my paradigm god has a right to take the2:26:57 life of everyone because it is2:26:59 precisely a punishment but i don't2:27:01 understand what it is precisely because2:27:03 it's what sorry i didn't it's considered2:27:04 a punishment2:27:05 precisely death is considered a2:27:07 punishment visited upon humanity so2:27:10 so2:27:11 if humanity was sinless hold on i i2:27:14 understand god taking away having the2:27:16 power to take away human life on that2:27:18 regard regardless of the age2:27:20 but not but any individual person2:27:22 doesn't have that right to take away the2:27:24 life of my child because that is not a2:27:27 his life2:27:28 and b that is also and b he my child has2:27:31 done nothing as a transgression against2:27:34 any other person2:27:35 um2:27:36 and not and thus they don't have that2:27:38 right okay so if humanity if humanity2:27:40 was sinless god wouldn't have the right2:27:44 to take away anybody's life2:27:46 no2:27:47 death would not even be in the world if2:27:49 human beings didn't send it just2:27:50 wouldn't exist no no2:27:52 no it's not my question my question is2:27:54 assume a state of affairs where humanity2:27:56 is sinless or only angels existed would2:27:59 god have the right to take away their2:28:01 lives2:28:02 uh would god have the right to take oh2:28:04 but god have a right to take away the2:28:05 life of like an angel or yeah yeah or a2:28:08 soul uh no because existence is no i2:28:12 would say not existence so god cannot2:28:15 kill angels god can does not have the2:28:17 right to2:28:18 you know just2:28:19 you know2:28:20 just eliminate the existence of angels i2:28:23 mean why doesn't he just eliminate the2:28:24 existence of satan or any other evil i'm2:28:26 asking why he wouldn't asking whether2:28:28 you think he has the right too2:28:31 hold on let me just explain well the2:28:33 reason i bring up that um the reason i2:28:36 bring that up as just one example is it2:28:39 is on my understanding it makes sense2:28:41 why god wouldn't take away the life or2:28:43 even why he wouldn't just annihilate2:28:45 souls in hell it's because every soul2:28:48 that exists2:28:50 is2:28:51 at base existent and existence and2:28:54 goodness and truth are all what are2:28:57 called transcendentals and all of those2:28:59 things are considered to be goods onto2:29:02 themselves and god doesn't create things2:29:05 without a purpose everything that god2:29:07 brings into existence god sustains and2:29:09 maintains in existence and that includes2:29:12 angels and human souls and anything else2:29:16 which is essentially immortal and2:29:18 because that's the question2:29:19 you're just saying that it doesn't2:29:23 you're just saying that doesn't exist2:29:24 because you're saying that so the souls2:29:26 that are in hell for example you can't2:29:28 you're not going to kill them but2:29:29 they're sinful2:29:31 yeah he punishes them forever2:29:33 yes and so death is irrelevant here and2:29:36 and persons are and persons are still2:29:39 death is irrelevant2:29:42 no because the law okay but then you see2:29:44 that you see that2:29:46 you see that an implication or a2:29:48 consequence of your position is that god2:29:50 literally cannot take away the life of2:29:52 angels he can't do that he's he cannot2:29:55 right he brings them into existence2:29:58 he cannot take2:29:59 okay so once god brings creatures into2:30:02 existence he cannot take them out of2:30:04 existence yeah just like he can violate2:30:06 the laws of logic or2:30:10 there's no contradiction2:30:12 there's no contradiction with like2:30:15 no no there's no contradiction there's2:30:17 no con yeah so what you want to say is2:30:19 it's metaphysically impossible because2:30:20 it contradicts his nature so what you2:30:22 want to say is that god taking something2:30:25 out of it taking an agent out of2:30:26 existence2:30:28 is immoral2:30:29 some taking something which is2:30:30 essentially immortal out of existence is2:30:33 immoral2:30:34 yes why why2:30:36 he created it2:30:38 it's his2:30:39 it's quite simple it's because it's2:30:41 because existence is considered to be2:30:43 one of the three transcendentals along2:30:45 with goodness and truth and for god to2:30:47 eliminate something2:30:49 like a soul or an angel which is2:30:52 essentially existent is the same thing2:30:54 as him eliminating something which is2:30:56 which is good or which has or which is2:30:59 true it's just something that god does2:31:01 not do at that level uh2:31:03 something which is considered form is by2:31:06 nature2:31:07 immortal and by and god doesn't violate2:31:10 something's essence like that2:31:12 okay so i mean so you're just adding2:31:14 layers to the theory that just making it2:31:15 seem much much more implausible but then2:31:18 so what so what you're saying is that2:31:20 you know the the the these these uh2:31:23 these souls or or or whatever it is you2:31:26 want to call it are uh by nature okay2:31:31 could2:31:31 so just to ask you a question to maybe2:31:33 elucidate this could god tell you a lie2:31:36 no i'm not saying could god let you fall2:31:38 under deception can god tell you a lie2:31:40 no no no okay yeah and is there a2:31:42 contradiction with someone telling you a2:31:44 lie2:31:45 no but you see i already see i already2:31:46 granted that i already said you don't2:31:47 have to give me a contradiction but it2:31:49 just seems very counterintuitive what2:31:51 you're saying is that well telling a lie2:31:53 clearly that seems immoral right but2:31:55 what you're saying is that god2:31:58 cannot take a being that he brought into2:32:00 existence out of existence a being that2:32:02 he owns2:32:03 i'm not telling you torturing him for no2:32:05 reason or whatever i'm just saying2:32:06 taking a being that he brought into2:32:08 existence out of existence on your view2:32:10 that's immoral2:32:11 i don't see that all the time2:32:13 in the same way i see a lie2:32:15 because it's absurd2:32:17 just sorry really quickly john i just2:32:19 want to understand you're saying that2:32:20 anything that god creates2:32:22 he cannot remove from existence and he2:32:24 can't like let's say say conscious be2:32:26 like like i'll say i saw i said an angel2:32:27 so a sinless2:32:29 is it just a conscious being john2:32:32 because you're you said that existence2:32:34 is one of the transcendental positions2:32:36 so that's what i'm trying to understand2:32:43 so what does god make in his image he2:32:45 makes in genesis men in his image and he2:32:48 makes angels in his image let us make2:32:50 man into our own image that's what2:32:52 revelation tells us is in his image and2:32:54 for god to destroy something in his own2:32:56 image would be2:32:58 um in essence to go against who he is2:33:01 what is that has a reflection you don't2:33:03 mind explaining what is what does it2:33:05 mean will you understand it oh it means2:33:08 base so the rational soul of a man and2:33:11 of angels is considered to be a2:33:12 reflection of god himself which it who2:33:16 himself is basically the source of all2:33:19 reason truth etc2:33:21 so basically our ability to reason about2:33:23 the world to2:33:25 uh have knowledge of things anything2:33:27 like particulars or universals that's2:33:29 something only angels and human beings2:33:31 have not any lower animals and hence for2:33:34 god to destroy that would be essentially2:33:36 or bring it totally out of existence2:33:38 would hence be to attack his own very2:33:42 image so he doesn't do that that's why i2:33:45 how is it attacking his image he can2:33:46 just create new images2:33:48 i mean2:33:49 you see2:33:50 his images2:33:51 is eternal immortal it's something no no2:33:54 yeah i get that2:33:55 creation no no i'm talking about the2:33:57 creation the reflection so you're saying2:33:59 the reflections of his image so he2:34:01 cannot take it out of existence well he2:34:02 well it didn't exist before he brought2:34:04 into existence so well then2:34:06 that that's not a a perfect mirror of2:34:09 his image because he was never out of2:34:10 existence these mirrors were out of2:34:12 existence so he could just bring new uh2:34:15 creations into existence that mirror his2:34:17 qualities i just don't see2:34:19 it's just presupposition after2:34:21 presupposition2:34:24 forgive me because i think we're going2:34:25 slightly off topic um on this particular2:34:28 issue yeah we've gone way2:34:30 out of the2:34:32 what the topic is right yeah if we can2:34:34 sort of reel it back into the original2:34:36 yeah i'm still confused about how2:34:39 governmental theory as you're2:34:42 uh conceiving it is distinguished2:34:44 between substitutionary atonement i2:34:48 from my reading i just want to read you2:34:50 something here2:34:51 uh this is just on wikipedia to see if2:34:54 you agree with it or not it says2:34:56 governmental theory cannot incorporate2:34:58 into itself2:35:00 the main elements of two major theories2:35:02 a satisfaction theory of atonement and a2:35:05 penal substitutionary theory of2:35:07 atonement however2:35:09 it can incorporate different2:35:10 understandings promoted in the other two2:35:13 atonement theories2:35:14 it incorporates notably2:35:18 peter forsythes i'm not sure if i'm2:35:21 pronouncing it maybe2:35:23 not sure uh anyway his emphasis on how2:35:27 the holiness of god figures in the2:35:29 atonement2:35:30 it incorporates uh em it incorporates an2:35:34 emphasis on christ ransoming humans as2:35:37 the classical ransom theory2:35:40 of atonement it incorporates the2:35:42 emphasis on god's love which is the main2:35:44 point2:35:45 uh and going on and on here then it says2:35:47 the governmental view is similar to the2:35:50 satisfaction view2:35:51 and the penal substitution view in that2:35:54 all three views see christ as satisfying2:35:57 god's requirement for the punishment of2:35:59 sin however2:36:01 the governmental view disagrees with the2:36:04 other two in that it does not affirm2:36:06 that christ endured the precise2:36:09 punishment that sin deserves or paid its2:36:12 actual2:36:14 or paid its sacrificial equivalent2:36:16 instead christ's suffering was simply an2:36:19 alternative to that punishment do you2:36:21 agree with that i agree it was an2:36:23 alternative to the punishment because2:36:25 the punishment of your king or monarch2:36:28 is a different2:36:29 sort of punishment than the punishment2:36:31 you yourself would undertake in hell2:36:34 yeah but the difference is that your2:36:37 punishment in hell is quantitative in2:36:40 that it is eternal and ongoing and2:36:42 without end whereas because of christ's2:36:46 qualitative nature as being both god and2:36:49 man and as being sinless2:36:51 it was and of course being our perfect2:36:54 head of government it is2:36:56 a different sort of punishment2:36:57 altogether2:36:59 yeah but then it also says here in2:37:01 contrast penal substitution holds that2:37:03 christ endured the exact punishment or2:37:06 the exact worth of of punishment that2:37:09 sin deserved2:37:11 so do you think that the exact the2:37:13 punishment2:37:14 on your view that christ2:37:17 endured was worth the punishment of our2:37:21 all of our sins2:37:22 yeah i would say so i don't think that2:37:24 female substitution is is actually yeah2:37:26 i don't think penal substitution is2:37:29 fully um2:37:30 separate from the moral government's2:37:32 angle my only point was it's stressful2:37:34 well then that's what i'm saying and you2:37:35 don't agree with the characterization of2:37:37 this i know it's only wikipedia but2:37:39 right i'm really struggling to see what2:37:41 the difference is maybe it's just my2:37:44 inadequacy i think the main difference2:37:47 here is it's done well at least the main2:37:49 difference here and why i characterize2:37:50 it as a moral governance view is because2:37:52 it stems from god as moral governor of2:37:54 the universe and from his place as being2:37:57 the head of the church and hence uh our2:37:59 king or prince it stems from yeah but2:38:01 substitutionary atonement uh proponents2:38:04 would agree with all of that it just2:38:05 seems like you're just emphasizing2:38:09 different language but they would be on2:38:11 board with that language anyway so2:38:14 i mean if they're on board they're on2:38:15 board but i think this is more of an2:38:17 argument of testimony than whether or2:38:18 not it holds true oh i'm not arguing2:38:21 whether i hold true i'm just i'm still2:38:23 trying to understand what it even means2:38:26 okay2:38:27 it basically means in distinction2:38:29 between that this and the penal2:38:31 substitution view i'm not worried about2:38:33 it2:38:34 i don't understand it so penal2:38:35 substitutionary atonement theorists2:38:37 would probably want to more argue2:38:40 that a it was necessary2:38:42 and b it was something which is rooted2:38:45 in the sacrificial system of the old2:38:46 covenant2:38:47 my argument is it's more so rooted in2:38:50 his status as the head of our covenant2:38:52 and our church and b it wasn't strictly2:38:55 necessary but it was2:38:57 but it was um something god instituted2:39:00 because it was fitting and because it2:39:01 was worthwhile to go through and2:39:04 worthwhile for a punishment for the2:39:06 church to undertake before coming into2:39:09 um god's mercy and of and2:39:12 our repentance that's the main2:39:14 difference if it's one of emphasis it's2:39:16 one of emphasis and if you want to say2:39:17 it's penal substitutionary then it's2:39:19 penal substitutionary but that's not i'm2:39:22 not really here2:39:24 or i'm not really too concerned with the2:39:25 taximoney of it2:39:28 yeah i am only because i'm more2:39:31 uh familiar with penal substitutionary2:39:33 atonement and2:39:34 if i don't know the relevant difference2:39:37 then it's i'm not going to be able to2:39:39 really offer a meaningful criticism2:39:42 okay so2:39:44 it so i mean it's fine all right i was2:39:46 just getting critiquing the general idea2:39:48 of substitutionary rights so do you2:39:50 think any of your critiques of2:39:52 substitution of substitutionary2:39:53 atonement would hold up2:39:56 yeah the same idea that i've been saying2:39:58 the whole entire time that an innocent2:40:00 person2:40:01 dying for the sins of all the guilty to2:40:03 me isn't unjust2:40:05 is it all right how's2:40:07 all right so a couple of things one2:40:10 so i guess i would just want to go2:40:13 and this is where the whole flood of2:40:14 noah came in it's because we know that2:40:16 there are instances where innocent2:40:18 people die out of the fact that god2:40:20 gives retribution to entire nations we2:40:23 know that's the case in the old2:40:24 testament we know it's the case2:40:27 at least that's how it comes across in2:40:28 some narratives that the quran takes up2:40:31 from the bible2:40:32 i just don't understand what it means to2:40:34 say that oh yeah you know they were just2:40:36 caught in the crossfire despite the fact2:40:38 that god is powerful enough to let2:40:40 innocent people go2:40:42 but i don't understand why god can't2:40:44 allow an innocent person to suffer2:40:46 because of the evils of the guilty2:40:49 that i don't understand how that can2:40:51 follow i also he can i can he can he can2:40:55 allow that to happen as clearly you're2:40:56 saying it does uh in natural disasters2:40:59 or what you're talking about with noah2:41:01 but those people that are dying those2:41:04 innocent people that are dying like the2:41:06 baby the equivalent in that situation2:41:08 would be that the baby dying because2:41:10 he's innocent therefore somehow2:41:14 it accounts for those evil parents that2:41:16 he had and the sins that they did that's2:41:19 the equivalent in the story which is not2:41:21 present in any islamic story or the2:41:23 flood of noah or anything else you can2:41:25 bring up yeah i mean it works on the2:41:26 christian paradigm because again all are2:41:28 guilty and all suffer death as a2:41:30 consequence of the mistakes of our2:41:32 parents but again this is why it doesn't2:41:35 really make sense to me on the islamic2:41:37 paradigm because death seems really bad2:41:40 no matter who you ask no matter how you2:41:42 characterize it it's something that2:41:45 when a child undergoes it despite their2:41:47 pure innocence i don't understand why2:41:50 what benefit could have to anybody there2:41:53 i like it just doesn't really work out2:41:56 for me i yeah real quick i don't i don't2:41:58 want to go off on another tangent i just2:41:59 want to say real quick the the problem2:42:01 is because i think you're you're a2:42:02 rationale for why you know god can't2:42:04 like2:42:05 uh kill or or or2:42:08 remove the existence of2:42:09 something that is sinless or something2:42:11 that he created in his image2:42:14 it almost seems like what you're saying2:42:15 is that well it can't vanish out of2:42:17 existence but that doesn't seem to be2:42:19 what death is so so so think of it think2:42:22 of a sinless human right2:42:25 and their soul2:42:26 just moving from this life to the next2:42:28 given the rationale you're providing in2:42:30 the fact that they're created in god's2:42:32 image and they can't just cease to exist2:42:34 they haven't ceased to exist they just2:42:35 have moved on it looks bad for us2:42:38 they're dying death seems bad how do you2:42:41 know it's bad for actually like as a2:42:43 theist i don't think you should like2:42:45 just as a theist without your christian2:42:47 uh2:42:48 presuppositions coming coming into the2:42:50 picture i don't see how why you should2:42:52 see death as as necessarily bad just2:42:56 depends on where you're going but it's2:42:57 just moving from one place to another so2:43:00 you don't cease to exist so the whole2:43:02 rational ground you have for god not2:43:05 being able to2:43:07 take something out of existence that is2:43:08 in his image is even preserved on the2:43:11 muslim conception because he just moved2:43:13 from one realm to another you're not2:43:15 yeah i mean2:43:17 but i don't know i think muslims hold to2:43:19 that like i know you're confessing to2:43:21 that but i've2:43:22 i've experienced people losing their2:43:24 children to natural disasters and2:43:27 diseases they are2:43:29 they are people who really bemoan the2:43:31 loss of their children they don't just2:43:32 see it as their kid teleporting from one2:43:34 place to another they cry they wail they2:43:37 take days to recover2:43:39 it's a pretty hard channel2:43:42 nobody's denying that but what about2:43:44 people who actually want to die like2:43:46 christian martyrs2:43:48 what about them they're you're saying2:43:50 that it's a bad thing well if it's so2:43:52 bad why are there people who throughout2:43:55 church history actually wanted to die2:43:57 and be a martyr2:43:59 the reason2:44:00 no the reason martyrship is done is as2:44:02 you said earlier it's a form of soul2:44:04 building it's also a way of testifying2:44:06 to the truth of the religion2:44:08 and of itself is not bad2:44:10 so can i real quickly therefore2:44:15 you hear me2:44:16 oh i hear you i just want to just make a2:44:17 quick point before i wanted to real2:44:19 quickly because you you with the islamic2:44:21 and christian paradigms there's two2:44:23 things i want to bring up one it said it2:44:24 is not the christian paradigm you're a2:44:26 catholic i assume by the iconic tree2:44:29 around you but uh the orthodox would2:44:31 disagree with you um about the original2:44:34 sin second2:44:35 about the2:44:36 paradigm second about the islamic2:44:38 paradigm2:44:40 that's you're speaking about it2:44:43 it's very clear that death is a creation2:44:46 and2:44:48 you know the one who created death death2:44:50 is a creation it's2:44:52 not non-existence so you are2:44:54 misrepresenting2:44:56 islam in that vein too i'm just going to2:44:58 throw that out there there are other2:44:59 things that i could pull out where you2:45:01 were you know kind of uh shaky on your2:45:04 logic and you're inconsistent but that's2:45:06 for another time2:45:07 okay a couple things one most of the uh2:45:10 most of the attempts by most modern2:45:12 orthodox about original sin2:45:14 that comes from terrible 18th 19th2:45:16 century russian orthodox theology2:45:19 it's not actually what you find when you2:45:21 look at much older stuff secondly um2:45:24 most of the stuff i'm just regaling here2:45:26 is from is what i'm hearing i just don't2:45:28 think it really works out with how human2:45:29 beings understand it in terms of their2:45:31 own psychology third of all relating to2:45:33 the martyrs yeah sometimes yeah2:45:35 christians are called to undergo evils2:45:37 for the sake of bringing about some2:45:39 greater good like the testimony of the2:45:41 church for example2:45:43 that i have no problem2:45:45 in understanding what i do have a2:45:46 problem in understanding is why someone2:45:49 who is completely innocent does not sin2:45:52 at all2:45:53 why would god just want to take their2:45:55 life2:45:56 in and of itself when he is powerful2:45:58 enough to prevent it and when they you2:46:00 know commit no sins against anyone else2:46:03 i understand that so afghanistan2:46:06 is that mentioned2:46:08 i understand that in terms of2:46:09 christianity because i understand so let2:46:11 me that element yeah2:46:13 so john let me let you know but the2:46:15 difference is2:46:16 the difference between that hold on the2:46:18 difference between that the fundamental2:46:20 difference between that and the theory2:46:22 that you're proposing2:46:24 is that the death of the innocent person2:46:27 is somehow2:46:28 accounting for the sins of the other2:46:31 people in an eternal state2:46:34 it has nothing to do you're talking2:46:36 about oh somebody being an innocent2:46:38 bystander that died in a hurricane2:46:40 because these other people were were2:46:42 killing their children or doing bad2:46:45 things that's not the same as an2:46:47 innocent person dying in order to2:46:50 restore that person2:46:52 in right standing with god for eternity2:46:55 those are two totally different things2:46:58 yeah2:46:59 the yeah yeah i agree they are two2:47:01 different things the difference between2:47:02 jesus christ is when he takes his place2:47:05 as the head of our church and our2:47:06 monarch that's a very intimate role2:47:08 similar to a husband or a wife if if i2:47:11 get married and she has a substantive2:47:13 amount of debt i can pay it back i can2:47:16 take it on to myself i could even help2:47:18 her deal with that because2:47:20 we have a closer bond and there's2:47:22 considered some sort of and we2:47:24 understand by virtue of law2:47:26 that two people can share it likewise i2:47:29 don't understand why a king couldn't2:47:31 take on a role where he knows that a2:47:34 certain people are responsible for a sin2:47:36 or sins on a national level and in2:47:39 voluntarily taking on that position or2:47:41 that office he has to2:47:44 pay back the debt of the entire nation2:47:46 if jesus christ wants to he can become2:47:49 incarnate take on that role and pay it2:47:52 back there the difference at least on2:47:54 paid to him2:47:56 himself2:47:57 yeah i mean so oh that's oh are you2:47:59 doing that whole oh god kills himself to2:48:02 pay back himself well he's paying2:48:04 himself unless you want to say he's2:48:05 paying the devil oh simple there are two2:48:07 oh there are two offices god takes on2:48:09 has the office by nature moral governor2:48:11 of the universe but he also takes on a2:48:13 secondary or additional office as being2:48:15 the head of the church uh in the same2:48:17 way you can in the same way we also have2:48:20 the nation of canada which has a2:48:22 specific debt to great britain but the2:48:24 head of state there the one in canada2:48:26 who pays back the debt to the head of2:48:28 state in great britain is the queen of2:48:30 canada paying back the debt to the queen2:48:32 of great britain it2:48:34 in legal matters this can happen god can2:48:36 take on two offices bear two2:48:38 responsibilities and those2:48:39 responsibilities can be shared between2:48:41 the two offices i really have no issue2:48:43 with yeah to me it does make what you2:48:46 just said is not analogous to god paying2:48:49 the debt to himself it's not the same2:48:51 thing i mean how to stay paying2:48:53 questions in virtue of two distinct2:48:55 offices i don't see an issue no john2:48:57 fisher hold on hold on john fisher2:48:59 canada although it may be part of2:49:01 quote-unquote the commonwealth yeah and2:49:04 it has a2:49:05 uh how do you say a symbolic head being2:49:08 the uh the queen yeah of england yeah or2:49:11 queen of he's the head of state2:49:13 yeah symbolic head we know canada we2:49:17 know canada is in origin a separate2:49:20 state with a separate set of laws a2:49:22 separate set of legislators yeah and in2:49:25 reality canada and britain operate as2:49:28 two separate states2:49:30 yeah they don't operate as though2:49:31 they're one state2:49:33 you know2:49:34 the analogy would be the analogy would2:49:36 be is i owe a debt to myself so i2:49:39 decided to take that payment and pay2:49:42 myself as though i paid and as i2:49:44 fulfilled a debt that's that's that's2:49:47 it's not an alligator the analogy is not2:49:49 canada and britain2:49:51 yeah and the fact that they share a head2:49:52 of state called the queen yeah as though2:49:55 the queen2:49:56 and canada and britain are actually one2:49:58 nation really they're not one nation2:50:00 that's not how it works that's that is2:50:03 virtually what my argument my analogy2:50:05 relies on the fact that they are not one2:50:07 nation just like how2:50:09 the church is not the same thing as god2:50:11 so it's not canada it's not the same2:50:14 itself2:50:15 yeah it's not the head of2:50:17 paying the head of state the same head2:50:19 of state it's not that because canada2:50:21 and britain are two separate states2:50:24 they're seen as separate states in the2:50:26 united nations2:50:27 they operate with separate set of laws2:50:29 british law is not the same as canada2:50:31 law you can't analogize between the two2:50:34 and it is a bit frustrating uh john2:50:36 because i know you know i'll you know2:50:38 you're a nice guy and stuff but you you2:50:40 give these analogies which just don't2:50:42 make sense and you sort of give them as2:50:44 though you know they're sort of you know2:50:46 as though they're obvious and they're2:50:48 not obvious and when you dig deeper i2:50:50 don't think they really make them much2:50:51 sense like for example you turn around2:50:53 and say well you know2:50:54 it makes sense under christianity why2:50:57 little babies are killed because they2:50:59 bear the sins of their fathers2:51:01 yeah and that just that doesn't make any2:51:03 sense to me makes more sense that god2:51:05 created life and death to try people and2:51:08 sometimes babies die in order to try2:51:10 their parents and sometimes they are2:51:12 prevent they're killed or that you know2:51:15 god takes their life because he has2:51:16 sovereignty to do so in order to save2:51:19 them for something worse in the future2:51:20 which may have been the sins that they2:51:22 may have committed whatever it is god's2:51:24 knowledge knows these things yeah that2:51:26 makes more sense than to say yeah god's2:51:29 punishing this little baby2:51:31 you know this you know this is inception2:51:34 within the uh mother's womb because it's2:51:36 actually sinful2:51:38 yeah2:51:39 that just doesn't really make much sense2:51:41 to me2:51:42 sorry yeah paper round hey i mean i2:51:45 don't i mean it doesn't really make2:51:46 sense to me how god can kill sinners2:51:48 kill their children say that it can be2:51:50 soul building to children even though2:51:52 they're they're dead or to their parents2:51:55 their dad um that doesn't mean no i2:51:57 didn't say that2:51:58 i gave2:52:04 the analogy was this was about the2:52:06 pandemic how a pandemic2:52:09 an illness can be for one set of people2:52:12 a punishment and for another set of2:52:14 people it could be a a soul building2:52:16 could be a test it could elevate2:52:19 i gave all of these things i didn't just2:52:20 say so but i said it could elevate2:52:22 remove their sins you know it could2:52:25 grant them greater position within god2:52:28 all of these things yeah so you know2:52:30 please don't and now don't use what i2:52:33 said as a way to directly analogize2:52:36 based upon noah's flood that wasn't the2:52:39 argument the argument was can one event2:52:42 be applied as a punishment for one group2:52:44 of people and yet not a punishment for2:52:46 another group of people that was the2:52:48 argument that was being brought forward2:52:50 yeah so the argument2:52:52 and2:52:53 and i also2:52:55 i also included a few other elements2:52:56 there that were not addressed yes uh one2:52:59 event can be used as a punishment for2:53:00 one person and it could also be used in2:53:02 it2:53:03 to bring about some other and for some2:53:05 other reason i'm not denying that what2:53:07 i'm saying is does god have a right to2:53:10 kill the innocent and i haven't really2:53:12 heard a good response there you said2:53:14 that he did with the old uh abraham and2:53:18 ishmael2:53:19 isaac thing that was your that's what2:53:21 you came in with you you admitted that2:53:23 at the very beginning2:53:25 yeah that there is something no i2:53:27 admitted that i don't know2:53:32 right so a couple of things one in the2:53:34 ishmael versus isaac one i use that in2:53:37 the understanding of the quran in the2:53:38 quran ishmael is an innocent person he2:53:40 doesn't even have original son at least2:53:42 them but you called him medic you used2:53:45 you used the medeki as king and he had2:53:47 the right and there was no no no you are2:53:49 now2:53:50 you're actually stronger which is2:53:52 interesting but you know what's really2:53:54 interesting is you're all over the place2:53:56 because i made it very i'm not all over2:53:58 the place2:54:00 because hold on2:54:01 hold on is did i say on christianity2:54:04 when isaac was put and asked for his2:54:06 life was he innocent2:54:09 was he innocent john no2:54:12 you don't believe he was innocent no2:54:13 exactly everyone has original sin here2:54:15 an islam is2:54:17 is um is hot or is it or ishmael is he2:54:21 innocent yeah he's innocent so i guess i2:54:23 see that point but but yes but so2:54:26 i'd ask because you're talking about2:54:27 death so are animals innocent2:54:30 are animals innocent yeah animals die2:54:34 yeah animals don't have rights2:54:37 what do you mean they don't have rights2:54:39 they they're living beings you said life2:54:41 itself was it was was2:54:44 anything that existed2:54:51 if the concept of death doesn't make2:54:53 sense in the islamic world view for you2:54:55 because it's not a punishment for sin2:54:57 then how does the death of animals make2:55:00 sense do you human beings have rights2:55:04 what do you mean do you human beings2:55:06 have rights in front of every everybody2:55:08 has rights everything has rights animal2:55:10 rights peta i don't i don't know2:55:13 i don't think animals have rights so you2:55:15 don't think the problem of animal2:55:17 suffering is a problem yeah because when2:55:19 you were talking before you don't think2:55:20 it is2:55:22 when the baby dies how do people have2:55:25 right he doesn't i'm thinking he's2:55:28 implying that they don't is that what2:55:29 you're saying2:55:30 persons have rights animals are not2:55:32 persons2:55:33 i don't care2:55:35 yeah but but before you said oh well i i2:55:38 don't think that would be satisfying2:55:39 because when you know my neighbor's baby2:55:42 dies they're upset and they cry for days2:55:44 but well have you ever seen somebody2:55:46 whose dog died i mean2:55:49 they start crying like babies too they2:55:51 they're oh my god they don't even bury2:55:54 him in the backyard oh2:55:56 poor charlie i guess john2:56:00 just sort of bring this in there2:56:03 is one second2:56:04 vote yeah i'll all agree2:56:07 on points appealing to you're appealing2:56:09 to that but then when i appeal to you oh2:56:11 you wanted to say that so it's just guys2:56:13 i guess2:56:14 john if i can just if we can just bring2:56:16 this back to i guess it's like from my2:56:18 perspective fine so you can have your2:56:19 your your own like like perspective and2:56:21 paradigm but i guess like if if we're2:56:23 gonna look at it like like as as two2:56:26 competing theories2:56:27 it seems like you have to make2:56:28 assumption after assumption i mean the2:56:31 first of all i mean you're the man the2:56:33 idea that death has2:56:37 to be some kind of punishment that's i i2:56:40 don't see why i need to assume that i2:56:41 don't i don't see why i need to assume2:56:43 that at all right and and you have to2:56:45 make assumption after assumption about2:56:47 god not being able or it being immoral2:56:49 for god to take a being that he created2:56:52 out of existence which is2:56:54 very counterintuitive now it also seems2:56:56 also seems like an added layer that2:56:59 you're adding to your theory that's2:57:00 gonna make it very implausible in2:57:02 comparison to the very simple theory2:57:05 that you know god created life and death2:57:07 humans are accountable for their own2:57:10 sins and god punishes people and2:57:12 forgives people i mean that's that seems2:57:14 simple2:57:16 for you to say that probabilistically2:57:18 what you're putting forward here is a2:57:20 better deal2:57:21 just overlooks2:57:23 all the assumptions you have to add into2:57:26 your premises in order for this to make2:57:28 even in order for this to be even2:57:30 intelligible it's just i i don't see how2:57:33 uh2:57:34 if if we're just if we're just comparing2:57:36 competing theories i don't see how you2:57:38 could say2:57:39 that your one is more reasonable in any2:57:42 way shape or form you have to make2:57:43 assumption after assumption and just you2:57:46 know the fact that you so you say things2:57:48 like i don't see how death makes sense2:57:51 under islam well2:57:52 really i think it's just much more2:57:54 obvious generally for human beings that2:57:56 we don't see how an innocent person can2:58:00 take on the punishment of other people2:58:03 now you can give all these analogies and2:58:04 appear appeal to different models of the2:58:06 atonement and theories and try to2:58:08 rationalize it but seriously which is2:58:11 going to be a tougher task to do2:58:13 that or rationalizing the idea to you2:58:16 who thinks that death is inconceivable2:58:18 the way it is on islam2:58:20 is okay in the sense that it's just a2:58:22 transition from one life to the other2:58:24 and human beings are accountable for2:58:27 their actions there's punishment and2:58:28 there's reward it seems like just the2:58:31 simple version2:58:32 looks fine so you you you you just2:58:35 giving it this this uh um you know look2:58:38 of incredulity like how can that be the2:58:40 case isn't gonna do enough work unless2:58:42 maybe you give us like a contradiction2:58:44 or something because intuitively really2:58:46 it doesn't seem like it's a problem you2:58:47 can say that it seems like that to you2:58:49 but generally speaking i think most2:58:51 people will agree that the idea of2:58:53 substitutionary atonement or whatever2:58:55 other model of atomic you're putting2:58:56 forward here2:58:57 is is not going to a really seem2:59:01 in line with with what with the way we2:59:03 see these things i find it kind of funny2:59:04 that i'm expected to give a logical2:59:06 contradiction but i've seen no attempt2:59:08 at a logical contradiction in saying an2:59:10 innocent person could pay the penalty2:59:12 for a guilty person no i'm not i'm not2:59:14 saying you have to what i'm so what i'm2:59:16 saying is i'm not saying you have to2:59:18 what i'm saying is it seems like give2:59:20 considering there doesn't seem to be2:59:23 anything that is counter-intuitive2:59:25 or problematic with this concept and it2:59:29 seems like you're you're you're just you2:59:31 know2:59:32 you you're just finding it2:59:33 counter-intuitive isn't going to be2:59:35 sufficient and you have to do more than2:59:37 that and2:59:39 counter-intuitive that a king2:59:42 yes exactly exactly but that's what i'm2:59:43 saying so i'm comparing two intuitions2:59:45 what i'm saying is that it seems like2:59:48 one one one of the intuitions is much2:59:50 more shared the idea that it seems2:59:54 absurd for somebody to take on the2:59:56 punishment of another like to just take2:59:59 on that liability and suffer for them3:00:01 and that person all of a sudden being3:00:03 okay not just okay being compatible with3:00:06 god for some reason and the other3:00:08 intuition that you know well death isn't3:00:11 a punishment it's just a transition from3:00:13 one life to another they're both3:00:15 intuitions i'm what i'm saying3:00:17 is that one seems much more far-fetched3:00:19 than the other is it i mean is it much3:00:22 more widely held3:00:24 i'm i'm gonna have to disagree there3:00:26 because i did bring up the point earlier3:00:28 i think jake just dismissed it as a3:00:30 point of emotion3:00:32 um but it was a point that a lot of3:00:33 people find a lot of pain in their3:00:36 children dying they don't rationalize it3:00:38 they see that it's unfair some people3:00:41 don't even feel that yeah i didn't3:00:43 disagree with that3:00:45 john i didn't disagree with that that's3:00:47 not the same so me not me being sad that3:00:50 somebody i love died is not me thinking3:00:52 that death is a punishment those two3:00:53 aren't the same thing i can miss the3:00:55 person i can i can be sad that the3:00:57 person is gone that doesn't mean that oh3:00:59 my god death is this evil thing that3:01:01 happened to him nobody's thinking like3:01:03 that we're thinking of a person we love3:01:05 that we lost especially a believer3:01:07 doesn't think that death is this evil3:01:09 thing that took him away in punishment3:01:11 no we just miss the person we long for3:01:13 the person we want to be with the person3:01:16 that's why we're sad we don't have this3:01:18 you know vendetta again against death3:01:20 and we're gonna go right now uh try to3:01:22 try to uh bring it down because people3:01:24 die no we don't like people we love3:01:27 dying that doesn't mean that we think3:01:29 death is a punishment i don't think3:01:30 those two are the same thing3:01:32 all right so3:01:34 okay so death so you're just so we're3:01:37 just going to start with the idea that3:01:39 death is not necessarily going to be a3:01:41 punishment here when an innocent person3:01:43 dies alongside a guilty person when god3:01:45 brings it out could have3:01:47 stopped the innocent person from dying3:01:48 but decides not to because yeah you3:01:50 already know well3:01:52 that's because that's god's will all3:01:53 right fair enough we're just3:01:55 we're just uh using two intuitions here3:01:57 that but you agreed with it no i thought3:02:00 you just said um a couple of minutes ago3:02:02 maybe you could you can correct me if i3:02:04 am agreeing with you here i'm just3:02:05 saying oh you're agreeing okay yeah i'm3:02:07 just saying if we're going to go with3:02:08 that as being both as being shared or3:02:10 counter-intuitive then fine but it's3:02:12 just too counterintuitive no sorry maybe3:02:14 i'm not understanding can you explain3:02:16 what you're saying because because if3:02:16 you're if you're saying that i'm okay3:02:18 i'm just saying3:02:20 i'm just saying if both p if me and you3:02:22 find something counterintuitive and3:02:24 we're just you know stuck in a lock of3:02:27 incredulity then we should just move on3:02:28 here and say there's something3:02:30 counterintuitive just for the sake of3:02:32 this discussion yeah yeah sure people3:02:33 can decide for themselves sure i mean i3:02:36 mean that's really what it's going to3:02:37 boil down to in a lot of situations i'm3:02:40 just saying that that if if from my3:02:42 perspective i just think that it's quite3:02:45 clear3:02:46 what is is is is seems to be way more3:02:48 counter-intuitive and uh i don't know i3:02:51 mean i guess i guess we didn't we didn't3:02:53 take enough enough of an in-depth look3:02:55 into your argument to actually bring it3:02:56 to an incoherence i just see a problem3:02:58 right okay so all right but let me ask3:03:01 you this can a head of state be punished3:03:03 for something on behalf of on behalf of3:03:05 their nation is that at all3:03:08 yeah okay let me think about that3:03:09 because i think there is a analogy3:03:11 because okay no i'm not asking if3:03:13 there's this knowledge i'm just saying3:03:14 in general what would be3:03:16 that3:03:17 i'm sorry3:03:18 head of state is not a king not3:03:20 necessarily but all kings are heads of3:03:21 state3:03:22 that's fine but now yes so so when you3:03:25 say on behalf i don't i don't yeah my3:03:27 point doesn't really require that so so3:03:32 so john when you're when you're saying3:03:34 when you're saying human being3:03:36 when you're saying he's being punished3:03:37 on behalf of his people his so you're3:03:39 saying so his people would be guilty for3:03:41 something right3:03:42 yep but let's say murder right so people3:03:45 are guilty for like murder he he is not3:03:48 right3:03:50 yeah the guy did not murder anyone3:03:52 yeah the guy did not murder anyone and3:03:55 is not associated3:03:57 with the murder of anyone like i mean he3:03:59 is in any way shape or form responsible3:04:02 for the crime directly indirectly he is3:04:05 their monarch is he not so he's3:04:07 associated so so he's associated with3:04:10 the crime right3:04:11 now3:04:12 okay so so3:04:14 maybe in international law yeah3:04:16 the the the king can take on some3:04:20 punishment that would i don't know if it3:04:21 would settle it but then it makes sense3:04:23 for him to take it on because he's3:04:24 associated with the crime slash sin3:04:28 which is something i wouldn't want to3:04:29 say about god but let's just put that3:04:31 aside for now but then the people3:04:33 themselves i mean3:04:35 uh uh um3:04:36 when you look at the broader picture3:04:38 right now like the people themselves3:04:40 aren't the difference is it's3:04:42 your the whole analogy is assuming that3:04:45 that person is partially guilty for what3:04:48 happened that's what i'm saying that's3:04:50 what i'm saying3:04:52 it's not that that's why that's exactly3:04:54 what i said i wouldn't want to say that3:04:55 about god all right all right so okay3:04:57 maybe maybe we could take it3:04:59 okay you could respond to that point3:05:00 yeah all right i'll respond to that3:05:01 point so let's say this let's say that3:05:05 uh the original head of it was under3:05:07 another head of state3:05:08 that head of state does just in the same3:05:10 way adam dies even though he's3:05:12 considered the head of human3:05:14 of humanity because we all inherit his3:05:16 nature3:05:17 now3:05:18 under him and everyone else who is is3:05:21 his biological heir who inherits uh his3:05:24 punishment3:05:25 um because he does and they'll die and3:05:28 his position or office is left vacant3:05:31 we want to say whoever takes up that3:05:33 position again has to also take up his3:05:35 punishment3:05:36 so it could stay vacant no one has to3:05:38 take up the punishment but if someone3:05:40 does they would have to bear it3:05:42 what would be the issue in stipulating3:05:44 that anyone who takes on a certain3:05:45 office has to take on the guilt3:05:48 associated with that office3:05:50 okay so3:05:51 okay so then you're saying that there's3:05:52 guilt there stipulated at the office yes3:05:56 no yeah why does god have guilt3:05:59 um well he has guilt and virtue of being3:06:02 incarnate and taking up that office it's3:06:04 a guilt he takes on but nothing natural3:06:06 to him3:06:07 yeah so what is it what does it mean for3:06:09 god to be guilty of something3:06:11 it means that he bears an office which3:06:13 has a certain debt to it that if he3:06:16 takes it up has to pay that debt3:06:18 or would be or would3:06:20 would be him binding himself to pay back3:06:22 that debt3:06:24 yeah and for us to even say that god3:06:27 could be guilty of anything just3:06:29 doesn't sound right3:06:32 um in virtue of what in virtue of his3:06:34 nature i agree in virtue of the office3:06:36 that he voluntarily takes up i don't see3:06:39 why not so he's doing something contrary3:06:41 to his nature3:06:43 it's not his office is not a part of his3:06:45 nature it's something that's secondary3:06:47 to it3:06:49 how does that work on divine simplicity3:06:52 because it's associated with the3:06:54 internet it's always you only have is3:06:56 nature you don't have anything3:06:58 additional3:06:59 uh well yeah we have the incarnation so3:07:02 the incarnation is it's3:07:04 taken up in virtue of a relational3:07:06 property basically3:07:08 god has a virtual relation with his uh3:07:10 human nature and his human nature has a3:07:12 real relation with him3:07:14 and he because of the incarnation he3:07:17 become he takes on the nature of man and3:07:19 he can take on any office associated3:07:21 that a man can take up i don't really3:07:23 see the issue yeah honestly i i can't3:07:26 take much more of this i think we should3:07:28 move on guys3:07:30 i i i was i was um3:07:33 i wanted to impress a bit more abdul3:07:35 we've been going for over three hours3:07:37 and we've got two people waiting for a3:07:39 long time and it's just3:07:40 more and more added on more and more3:07:43 complicated metaphysical assumptions to3:07:46 the whole theory it just keeps getting3:07:48 worse and worse yeah i just3:07:50 always find john's discussions3:07:52 interesting but yeah i guess i guess we3:07:53 could pick it up some of the time then3:07:56 well i'm in the chat3:07:58 okay okay great okay we're gonna go to3:08:01 you're gonna go to um3:08:03 actually you know what we should look at3:08:05 the super chats first before we even3:08:07 bring anybody on3:08:09 um3:08:11 so what was the last one because if he3:08:14 kneel so his future3:08:15 yeah3:08:17 i got it3:08:19 yeah i found it here um3:08:21 one second let me bring it up okay jake3:08:25 another 10 super chat they try to link3:08:28 the theory of substitution with the ram3:08:30 linking jesus to it i.e making it the3:08:33 sacrificial lamb3:08:35 yeah that's right he did that uh several3:08:38 times3:08:39 um3:08:41 also the idea of punishing an innocent3:08:43 person for no reason is illogical and3:08:45 i've dealt with christians with this3:08:47 type of idea3:08:49 okay yeah we've just seen that on3:08:52 display with john3:08:54 and otangelo before that3:08:57 and then i think he sent another one3:08:58 here okay3:09:00 prophet jonah yunus alaihi salaam was3:09:04 punished for disobedience to the3:09:06 commands of was punished for his3:09:08 disobedience to the commands of allah3:09:11 did the rest of the people on the boat3:09:13 go got drowned3:09:15 asking with him3:09:18 the city of nineveh repented3:09:22 um3:09:25 i don't know what the question really is3:09:27 this was said in the context of the uh3:09:30 you know innocent people dying and like3:09:32 uh yeah because i was the one who3:09:33 brought up jonah i said that3:09:36 the people though and the the quran3:09:38 actually mentions this is one of the3:09:40 unique situations where an entire nation3:09:43 actually repented3:09:44 um and they were forgiven and there was3:09:46 no sacrifice so that's what my point was3:09:48 is that a sacrifice wasn't needed for an3:09:51 entire nation that repented god forgave3:09:54 them3:09:55 um you know the other thing it show3:09:58 there's another thing about that the3:09:59 first part of it which is said you know3:10:01 the people on the boat they didn't get3:10:03 punished3:10:04 right right right okay that's what his3:10:06 point was that's the one who i think he3:10:08 was trying to focus on that one yeah3:10:10 because the people on the boat weren't3:10:12 punished for what jonah did it was his3:10:14 point i think right3:10:16 okay uh3:10:18 i think that was it3:10:20 unless i missed another one there's one3:10:23 more he sent a neil martial3:10:34 only guilty for his sin3:10:36 and disobedience we don't have to be3:10:39 guilty on his behalf yeah that's correct3:10:41 we don't believe that as muslims that3:10:43 we're guilty or that we die because adam3:10:46 sinned we don't have this3:10:48 christian idea3:10:49 was that3:10:50 one3:10:52 question3:10:55 yeah so uh but yeah he called me yeah3:10:58 yeah you know it's security because it's3:10:59 my other name so uh just for those on3:11:02 here uh3:11:03 the question was so he did mention that3:11:07 the3:11:08 the orthodox opinion that there is no3:11:11 original sin3:11:13 it came about through bad what he called3:11:16 bad russian orthodox3:11:18 theology but then if you go3:11:20 further back it wasn't the case do you3:11:22 know anything about that3:11:25 me i don't think that that's accurate i3:11:28 think that um3:11:30 there's a difference on original sin3:11:34 that3:11:35 goes back much further than that and3:11:38 actually there was recently a debate3:11:41 on a channel channel that i'm going to3:11:43 be on soon called reason and theology3:11:45 which john knows it's actually a3:11:46 catholic channel3:11:48 where a catholic was debating3:11:52 a protestant what was the subject again3:11:55 and i can't remember off top my head but3:11:57 it wound up coming down to their3:11:59 different views on original sin3:12:03 and he wasn't saying hey look this idea3:12:05 was created only a couple hundred years3:12:07 ago by these3:12:08 um heretical3:12:11 greek orthodox so yeah i don't3:12:13 i mean john didn't go into detail on3:12:16 that but i don't think that that was3:12:17 accurate i don't3:12:20 yeah i don't know much more to say about3:12:21 it3:12:22 but um3:12:24 anyway we've got now we've got three3:12:26 people waiting3:12:27 so let's go to richard here3:12:31 christian waiting for you guys to go3:12:33 live3:12:34 we're live baby3:12:36 i can tell it peace and respect to you3:12:38 all3:12:39 peace3:12:40 what's going on richard3:12:42 everything all at once or nothing at all3:12:44 depends on your point of view3:12:47 uh3:12:48 so i want you guys to know that that i'm3:12:51 here for you3:12:53 to help me3:12:54 become corrected3:12:56 if there's something logic flawed in3:12:57 what i'm thinking3:12:59 okay3:13:00 because i've gained some amount of3:13:02 respect for you guys for the work that3:13:04 you've done with justin downing3:13:06 and i want to say bless you and thank3:13:08 you3:13:09 for that work that was a lot of work3:13:12 which is exactly the kind of person you3:13:14 want to hook you want to hope to meet3:13:15 right someone like that3:13:18 that's great3:13:19 yeah3:13:20 okay so so uh run this down for me how's3:13:23 this work i make a claim you guys tear3:13:24 it apart right something like that3:13:27 uh unless you have anything that you3:13:29 want to comment on what the previous3:13:31 guest said maybe3:13:32 i don't know it's up to you i love all3:13:34 my brothers equally3:13:37 when they're3:13:38 biblically coherent and not and i won't3:13:41 speak further than that3:13:43 okay yeah go ahead so you you want to3:13:46 give your um i guess take on on the3:13:49 topic3:13:50 yeah sure um that would be that'd be a3:13:53 fun time right3:13:55 okay so3:13:58 i think christians are normally3:14:00 conflating some terms from within the3:14:02 text and because of it deeply deeply3:14:04 confused and i think i'm not confused on3:14:06 that same point and that's this3:14:09 that3:14:10 the father3:14:12 in christian terms3:14:14 is3:14:15 is the one who does the job that jesus3:14:18 sees do the job before him that is the3:14:20 job of jesus3:14:21 after all in the text jesus is not doing3:14:24 the job of god3:14:26 he's doing the job of jesus so in order3:14:28 that he says something like i am doing3:14:30 what i have seen my father do before me3:14:32 that means his father was a jesus3:14:38 good so far3:14:40 okay3:14:41 yeah3:14:42 okay so that's that's a really common3:14:44 misunderstanding as part of the text3:14:46 they strictly have to ignore3:14:49 and and to maintain their their theology3:14:51 their doctrine from within whatever3:14:53 church3:14:54 that they have that doesn't maintain3:14:55 that and here's why they have to3:14:57 maintain that they have to maintain that3:14:59 because they3:15:00 they accidentally are conflating the3:15:02 father with god3:15:06 so3:15:07 it doesn't matter say for instance uh3:15:10 any of you gentlemen3:15:12 if if you any of you perfectly adhered3:15:16 to all of the requests3:15:18 demands whatever you want to call them3:15:20 of allah would that make you allah3:15:24 no3:15:25 you see that's what christians are doing3:15:27 there3:15:29 when the bible claims that the father3:15:30 perfectly adheres as yahweh and acts on3:15:34 reality as yahwah they conflate that as3:15:36 being yahweh you see the problem3:15:39 okay yeah and then they're doing the3:15:41 same thing with jesus3:15:43 yes yes they are3:15:45 it makes absolutely zeros it's why they3:15:48 can't justify their position from within3:15:49 the text3:15:52 for instance uh someone might say3:15:53 something like3:15:56 you have adam's sin on you3:16:01 uh because adam sinned right3:16:04 because they need to justify why you are3:16:06 guilty from birth3:16:09 so that they can maintain that god did3:16:11 nothing immoral in their own view3:16:14 when obviously3:16:17 it's according to their view immoral to3:16:19 kill someone3:16:21 on the part of god right so that they3:16:23 can't justify it that way but they have3:16:25 to ignore lines like when the father3:16:28 eats sour grapes the sun's teeth are not3:16:31 set on edge3:16:34 they'll ignore things like that which is3:16:36 an obvious illusion saying3:16:38 saying look3:16:39 you are not guilty for what your parents3:16:41 did except that if you adopt their ideas3:16:44 you can carry on a curse3:16:46 yeah right3:16:48 okay so all that's coherent so far3:16:50 yeah i mean i didn't bring up that3:16:52 particular verse but i brought up other3:16:54 ones like it and it seemed like they3:16:56 were ignored3:16:57 i found it extremely frustrating to sit3:16:59 here and watch this3:17:01 yeah and not necessary at all3:17:05 okay so3:17:07 i'm i'm trying to understand maybe i3:17:09 don't know uh maybe i could uh make a3:17:11 strong assertion and you guys could3:17:13 critique that or something3:17:14 would that be okay3:17:16 okay3:17:17 now i have to admit that by most measure3:17:20 i'm a heretic3:17:21 but i truly believe that a heretic is3:17:23 someone you spoke to too long and you3:17:25 discovered the differences3:17:29 and and the guy that you went to church3:17:31 with for 20 years down at you know bible3:17:33 baptist3:17:34 uh he's a heretic too you just didn't3:17:36 talk to him enough3:17:38 so i don't know what that term even3:17:39 means in real in in real usefulness um3:17:44 okay3:17:45 so3:17:47 geez what's an assertion i can make that3:17:49 you guys would would i want to do3:17:50 something super fundamental tell me3:17:52 something fundamental within the bible3:17:55 i'll make a claim about it3:17:58 uh i don't know3:18:01 richard the topic obviously is about3:18:03 salvation i want to try and keep it3:18:05 focused okay cool let's do that so3:18:08 obviously with christianity that they3:18:10 believe that3:18:11 uh3:18:13 you know god incarnated onto the earth3:18:16 that3:18:17 you know jesus was an innocent man3:18:19 therefore was able to take up all the3:18:21 burden of sin3:18:22 and be that perfect sin sacrifice and3:18:25 because it's god that's killing himself3:18:28 uh he's a right to cover everybody3:18:30 else's sin3:18:33 i i could actually defend that better3:18:35 than i've heard a person defend it even3:18:36 though i don't hold the position and3:18:37 here's how i would defend that it's3:18:38 god's fault we're here3:18:41 he does need to pay himself but that's3:18:43 another that's another thing3:18:45 well it could be the case that god3:18:47 doesn't have to3:18:48 if god created us anyway3:18:51 sure god created a situation in which we3:18:53 commit sin it could be the case that god3:18:55 doesn't have to require any right3:18:57 punishment why not just say that monarch3:19:00 butterfly right there must be smashed3:19:02 under a foot why not just say that3:19:07 uh yeah yeah but i think what they would3:19:08 probably argue is that god is just3:19:11 and therefore god wouldn't just3:19:13 arbitrarily undertake actions but rather3:19:16 they would follow from a just3:19:17 perspective3:19:19 yeah but they'd also say he made up the3:19:21 rules3:19:23 uh yeah yeah they would say that they3:19:25 made up the rules but they would all3:19:28 they made up the rules3:19:30 uh but then once he's made up the rules3:19:32 he's now unabound to stick to them3:19:35 by his nature3:19:37 he couldn't just develop rules and then3:19:39 arbitrarily break those rules that would3:19:41 go against this nature3:19:43 i understand they would maintain that3:19:44 but they'd also maintain that3:19:47 anything that god says dick takes3:19:49 dictates what3:19:50 logic is and we would believe it no3:19:53 matter what like we would think the3:19:54 monarch is a perfect sacrifice3:19:57 for all of sin of mankind we would3:19:59 actually believe that3:20:01 yeah but i think to be fair christians3:20:03 like john fisher wouldn't accept that3:20:05 position they wouldn't just simply say3:20:07 god makes up the logic3:20:10 i want to talk about i don't want to3:20:11 talk about mr john fisher but but yes3:20:14 they can be inconsistent that way3:20:16 yeah so there will be others that would3:20:18 be inconsistent yeah okay so so on3:20:21 salvation i'll make a claim3:20:23 um3:20:24 that according the bible christ is not3:20:26 there for the believer the believer is3:20:28 already saved thereby his sacrifice3:20:30 doesn't mean squat to the believer it's3:20:32 not for them3:20:34 now they might in pride say something3:20:36 like i know so much3:20:39 that i can be guilty but what the bible3:20:41 says about believer non-believer is that3:20:43 they're basically ignorant they perish3:20:45 for lack of understanding3:20:47 they don't have any knowledge they don't3:20:48 have any wisdom please listen to me3:20:50 because you don't get any of this that's3:20:52 what the bible says about them3:20:54 so it's just a matter of pride when they3:20:56 say3:20:57 something like i am guilty3:21:00 and i need forgiveness3:21:04 what do you think of that3:21:09 so you're saying i am guilty and3:21:12 i need forgiveness3:21:14 is a pride problem3:21:16 no no but who's saying that sorry3:21:19 christians generally speaking3:21:22 uh3:21:23 yeah3:21:24 so3:21:26 i don't know i don't know if that's what3:21:28 they would say3:21:30 i think yeah they obviously say it3:21:32 yeah so yeah so they would need yeah so3:21:34 they would say yeah i am guilty i need3:21:36 forgiveness i cannot forgive myself i am3:21:39 not worthy of forgiveness therefore i3:21:41 need somebody else3:21:43 to be that perfect3:21:46 uh punishment or sacrifice for my3:21:49 forgiveness3:21:50 so so here's my assertion the the3:21:52 sacrifice of christ3:21:55 uh the death and resurrection3:21:58 is is a statement of medical authority3:22:01 and understanding of what the human3:22:02 animal is3:22:04 performed in in sho and in front of a3:22:07 group3:22:08 that are non-believers3:22:10 who who killed him etc right3:22:14 and that that is to give them physical3:22:16 evidence3:22:18 that they've been asking for it has3:22:20 nothing to do with the believer3:22:22 whatsoever nor their sin and here's why3:22:24 i justify that or how i justify that3:22:28 is3:22:28 if if i say that grace3:22:31 makes sense3:22:33 in the face of ignorance3:22:35 we already know that you can't send a3:22:37 three-year-old to jail i don't care they3:22:39 can hold a shotgun pull the trigger in3:22:40 grandpa's face blow his head right off3:22:42 his shoulders three-year-old's not going3:22:44 to jail come on because he doesn't3:22:46 really understand what was actually3:22:48 going to happen he just maybe knew it3:22:49 was going to be exciting but that's3:22:51 about it3:22:52 so3:22:53 it's obvious that grace is extended in3:22:56 the face of ignorance3:22:58 now is that grace perfectly just in the3:23:00 face of that same ignorance well yes3:23:02 obviously it makes total sense but3:23:04 here's the part that can't be justified3:23:07 you can't justify3:23:09 grace3:23:10 due to ignorance3:23:12 right or innocence3:23:14 which is perfectly just3:23:17 and they suffer guilt they can't be both3:23:19 you can't be both guilty and ignorant3:23:22 you see3:23:25 so what the bible is actually reading3:23:26 that's being misunderstood is you are3:23:29 ignorant3:23:31 you can't be guilty3:23:34 thus i extend you grace3:23:37 how's that for a claim3:23:44 well uh what was the last statement you3:23:46 can't3:23:48 i extend you grace because i i am aware3:23:51 that you are ignorant stiff-necked3:23:53 unable to learn etc3:23:58 yeah that's fine i guess3:24:03 okay i'm not getting a lot of pushback3:24:04 here3:24:05 uh what can i do3:24:07 trying to make your show3:24:09 i want to be i want to be cooperative3:24:11 you guys are great guys you've been i3:24:13 mean i mean i think yeah i generally3:24:15 think people get grace and mercy because3:24:18 they3:24:19 they do they need it3:24:21 right that's what you're saying is that3:24:23 the islamic position3:24:24 normally yes everybody needs god's mercy3:24:28 i don't know what i don't know what3:24:29 christians are talking about but3:24:30 whatever it is it ain't in the bible3:24:34 so where do you think it came from3:24:36 tradition probably3:24:39 hmm3:24:42 i mean obviously you you can't have3:24:44 federal headship and and and born into3:24:46 sin and guilt3:24:48 while the bible says you're you're3:24:49 ignorant3:24:50 and and3:24:52 you don't know my ways and the child3:24:55 isn't punished for the father eating3:24:57 sour grapes it says all these things3:24:58 clearly3:25:01 right yeah i don't know3:25:04 christians so we don't really uh accept3:25:07 these particular positions that3:25:09 christians are the ones that consider3:25:11 themselves orthodox3:25:14 am i playing the game wrong tell me tell3:25:15 me what to do i'll do that no no it's3:25:18 fine don't worry we appreciate you3:25:19 coming on but i like look the general3:25:22 position from3:25:23 you know uh3:25:26 you know from what we sense regards to3:25:28 christianity is that they sort of give3:25:30 this a idea that3:25:32 everybody's born of sin but like you3:25:34 said the the children are not3:25:37 yeah exactly so there's there's question3:25:38 marks because of that then there's this3:25:41 issue that every sin must be punished by3:25:44 death3:25:45 including a child in the womb of a3:25:47 mother would be considered sinful and3:25:49 therefore must die because it must be3:25:51 punished3:25:52 and then there's the idea that okay3:25:54 yeah and then they say okay but god came3:25:57 down he incarnated upon the earth3:26:01 he died and he died as a way to get rid3:26:04 of3:26:06 the punishment of death3:26:08 and then we're like well right people3:26:09 still die who are christians so where3:26:12 does that sure3:26:13 so then okay then always just a3:26:16 spiritual death or a3:26:18 metaphorical death3:26:20 and then this just this idea then to say3:26:22 that3:26:23 to argue that the guilty person who's3:26:26 guilty of sin knowingly what he's done3:26:29 shouldn't be the one that bears the3:26:31 consequence of that3:26:33 that that seems irrational3:26:35 yeah then that seems a bit odd to us as3:26:37 muslims because we're like no no the one3:26:39 who3:26:39 is guilty3:26:41 yeah3:26:42 you know getting rid of all the3:26:43 circumstances of ignorance things like3:26:46 that and not understanding get rid of3:26:48 all of that then he bears responsibility3:26:51 now he might repent3:26:53 and realize he's done wrong and if he's3:26:55 done that then he turns around to god3:26:58 and god has the power to forgive him and3:27:00 says he will forgive a person who3:27:03 has made a mistake did air you know made3:27:06 an error3:27:08 but then regrets it to the point where3:27:10 if he was put into the same position3:27:13 he would not do the same mistake he3:27:15 would change his ways3:27:17 only god of course he would if he had3:27:19 new information yeah yeah and only god3:27:21 knows that only god knows whether that3:27:24 person is being so truthful that if he3:27:26 was to rewind the clock back3:27:29 right3:27:31 that's right he wouldn't make that yeah3:27:32 exactly oh god no i don't know that no3:27:34 other doesn't the doesn't the koran then3:27:37 declare that we are short of certain3:27:39 knowledge3:27:40 yeah yeah exactly so we don't know3:27:42 certain things what's the problem3:27:43 there's no problem with that3:27:45 no there isn't there isn't so that's3:27:46 that's what we we tend to that's our3:27:49 position in this night position but at3:27:51 the same time we get a lot of christians3:27:52 pushing back upon us saying no no did3:27:54 you try talking to one that read the3:27:56 bible3:27:58 well i i you know to be honest angelo3:28:01 john fisher they were you know they're3:28:03 people that would say that they read the3:28:05 bible they have particularly but i think3:28:07 what is that because they read it within3:28:09 a very specific lens3:28:11 sure3:28:12 and so as a result they focus upon this3:28:14 particular aspect3:28:16 within this paradigm of you know uh3:28:20 penile atom3:28:21 substitutionary atonement and so as a3:28:24 result everything becomes good and until3:28:26 they can step outside of that sort of3:28:29 you know mindset and then look at things3:28:31 anew it's very difficult for them to3:28:34 look at those verses that you quoted and3:28:36 then start to look at them in a with3:28:38 with fresh eyes i think3:28:41 maybe i did have a great advantage in3:28:43 being an anti-theist when i read it3:28:45 right yeah yeah3:28:48 but um richard we've got two more guests3:28:50 yeah no i'm jumping off you guys are a3:28:52 blast thank you so much it was it was a3:28:54 lot of fun but i want i want to say3:28:56 primarily keep doing what you're doing3:28:59 christians are are not doing a good job3:29:01 of reading the text nor thinking about3:29:02 it so i deeply appreciate you guys i'm3:29:04 on your side3:29:06 okay thank you richard appreciate you3:29:08 coming on thanks3:29:09 peace3:29:10 take care3:29:16 uh abdul rahman i think we've got two3:29:18 more guests are you able to add them3:29:19 back on oh yes one more one here go for3:29:23 it i don't know where's jake's gone3:29:25 yeah3:29:26 i do3:29:31 uh i'm super nervous but3:29:33 3:29:35 fanboy here but i'll try my best to keep3:29:37 my composure so i have um if you don't3:29:40 if you guys don't mind i have two3:29:41 questions3:29:43 um the second one is much more to like3:29:46 you know i i i want you guys like3:29:49 comments on my question3:29:52 rather statements3:29:54 but the first question is uh3:29:56 i met this person and and i think it was3:29:59 i'm not sure if it's a he or she but we3:30:01 talked about um3:30:03 about hell and he was like3:30:06 the reason why we muslims live in the3:30:08 world is because we just prepare3:30:09 ourselves to go to hell3:30:11 and so we kind of like conflicting there3:30:13 and he said that3:30:14 he said that he believes that because of3:30:17 a hadith saying that3:30:20 only 1 out of 73 types of muslims can go3:30:23 to like heaven and the other goes to3:30:25 hell3:30:26 so he was like what are the odds that3:30:28 i'm going to you know not go to hell so3:30:30 that's why i'm i'm in this world just to3:30:33 prepare to go to hell and so3:30:35 we kind of got into like an argument3:30:38 i was like um3:30:40 but3:30:41 aren't we here to prepare ourselves to3:30:43 go to heaven why do you have to be so3:30:45 pessimistic3:30:47 and3:30:48 you know play with the odds and3:30:50 preparing yourself to go to the hell3:30:53 and so i just want you guys to comment3:30:55 on that3:30:58 uh yeah so that's completely wrong way3:31:01 to view3:31:02 uh3:31:03 islam and allah because3:31:06 uh3:31:07 firstly the hadith that he mentions the3:31:09 hadith which is like used often which3:31:12 says that3:31:13 uh i think it's the jews split into 713:31:16 sex the jews split into 72 and the3:31:19 muslims still split into 73 all of them3:31:21 in hell fire3:31:23 except one and then the sahabah the3:31:26 companions asked who are the one and he3:31:27 says those who are upon my way and the3:31:30 way of my companions3:31:31 you know to the effect yeah so3:31:34 uh but that hadith is actually3:31:35 considered hasan yeah it's not even it's3:31:37 not some narrations3:31:40 some some scholars of hadith don't3:31:41 classify sahih they classify as hasan3:31:44 which is one level down so it shouldn't3:31:46 be used like as a3:31:48 fundamental3:31:50 you know akida point yeah to understand3:31:53 secondly is that3:31:55 when he talks about 733:31:57 uh sex differs yeah groupings3:32:01 uh the assumption shouldn't be that3:32:04 the one that is upon the haqq3:32:07 yeah of islam3:32:09 would be the minority it could be the3:32:12 majority these could just be3:32:14 72 other3:32:16 you know smaller groups and smaller3:32:17 factions and we know for our history3:32:19 there have been various small groups and3:32:21 factions that have never become the3:32:23 majority you know there may have been a3:32:25 majority of one time like the marta3:32:27 zilla had certain prominence during the3:32:30 uh3:32:31 early abbasid khilafah but later it3:32:34 became less prominent to the extent that3:32:36 we don't really have material3:32:39 or others similar to that3:32:41 today so you know just to be aware that3:32:44 it doesn't necessitate that and also by3:32:46 the way the idea of 73 the 70 in the3:32:50 arabic language is normally used as a3:32:52 metaphor yeah so it's normal it doesn't3:32:54 just mean there's literally 73 i need to3:32:57 count each one it can mean3:33:00 multiples of 70 or 70 and you know3:33:03 slightly above yeah3:33:05 so you know it can be understood in that3:33:07 context3:33:08 yeah kind of like in english i will use3:33:10 several from seven yeah like a dozen3:33:13 it's like a specific it's 12 but it's3:33:15 not exactly 12 when you say it doesn't3:33:18 well you can say you're baker's dozen3:33:19 which is 13 that's what they say in3:33:22 england yeah so that's first thing yeah3:33:26 and the second thing is this is that um3:33:28 in terms of how we therefore approach3:33:31 islam3:33:32 i think it's a statement3:33:36 you know if i had i don't like to quote3:33:38 without knowing exactly the the precise3:33:41 quote so but i'll give the general point3:33:43 so i won't mention3:33:45 who said it3:33:46 but it was mentioned i think he's a3:33:47 companion who said that if all if if3:33:50 there's a voice from heaven said every3:33:53 single person will enter paradise except3:33:55 for one person he goes that3:33:58 he goes i will fear that that one person3:34:00 would be me3:34:01 that's not going to happen3:34:03 and then he said and if there's a voice3:34:05 from heaven either angel said that all3:34:07 people will go to hell fight except for3:34:09 one person he said3:34:11 i would hope and have the the the any3:34:14 the optimism that that one person who's3:34:16 not going to go to alpha is me3:34:19 the idea is this is that as muslims we3:34:22 sit between fear and hope yeah this idea3:34:25 that3:34:26 you know we're not so pessimistic that3:34:29 we think you know allah will not grant3:34:32 us salvation will not grant us mercy or3:34:34 forgiveness3:34:36 neither are we3:34:37 sit in a position which we think oh we3:34:39 can do whatever we want because allah3:34:41 will forgive us and he's the most3:34:43 merciful no we sit within the idea that3:34:46 allah3:34:48 he is the one that will3:34:51 uh grant us forgiveness and mercy3:34:53 inshallah but he's also the one that3:34:55 punishes yeah and holds us to account3:34:58 and he's just and so therefore we are in3:35:01 a position where we fear allah's uh you3:35:04 know anger3:35:06 and displeasure at the same time we hope3:35:09 in allah's mercy and pleasure upon what3:35:12 we do and that gives us that3:35:14 that balance of not being pessimistic or3:35:17 overly optimistic but in the same way3:35:20 our optimism should always be slightly3:35:23 more than now pessimism yeah as a3:35:25 believer so3:35:27 i mean3:35:28 his his approach in how he how he's3:35:30 seeing things3:35:31 seems to be incorrect i don't know if he3:35:34 has issues with regards to obedience to3:35:35 islam is he practicing muslim or3:35:39 um3:35:40 he said to me that he's he's practicing3:35:43 and3:35:44 um3:35:45 he said something about sadaka like um3:35:48 like if i were to go to hell at least my3:35:50 hands won't burn or something because3:35:52 you know because he believes that in3:35:54 this world we're preparing to go to hell3:35:56 and so i was like3:35:59 you know i would rather go to heaven3:36:00 rather than just have all of my body3:36:03 burn but my hands so it's like you know3:36:06 pessimism and optimism and i say to him3:36:08 like i do a lot of sins too but i never3:36:10 never ever want to even believe3:36:13 that i go to hell3:36:15 yeah good he has problems3:36:17 yeah but that's how a muslim should be a3:36:19 muslim should be he's not a person who3:36:20 thinks3:36:21 we're just preparing ourselves to go to3:36:24 hell rather muslim thinks3:36:26 that we are seeking the pleasure of3:36:27 allah and that we hope for that pleasure3:36:30 uh maybe yahya or3:36:32 uh you can mention the hadith3:36:35 which is that think of uh allah3:36:38 subhanahu ta is with you as you think of3:36:40 him i don't know if you come across this3:36:42 hadith as yeah yeah yeah yeah he's3:36:45 exactly that's a good one3:36:48 yeah so the hadith is basically if you3:36:50 think3:36:51 yeah so if you think first of all3:36:54 yeah so if you could think thoughts that3:36:55 other sponsors go he's going to punish3:36:57 you that's how allah will be with you3:36:59 but if you think that allah is the3:37:00 person who will be showing you mercy and3:37:02 forgiveness then also that's how allah3:37:05 will be with you that's how you're meant3:37:07 to think so at the same time we're not3:37:09 like overly optimistic and saying yeah3:37:11 you know i can do whatever i want but at3:37:13 the same time we never we don't have3:37:15 negative thoughts about allah in terms3:37:17 of how it relates to us but rather we3:37:20 always think that allah will show his3:37:21 mercy and forgiveness insha allah3:37:25 i i don't know if you're looking for the3:37:27 hadith are you3:37:29 yeah3:37:30 annie i i it's a i don't want to3:37:34 no that's not yeah3:37:36 i'll find it i found it okay uh yeah3:37:39 uh3:37:40 uh3:37:59 so the way my slave perceives me i am3:38:02 that essentially3:38:04 yeah3:38:06 so yeah so maybe quote him3:38:08 maybe quote him that hedy that might3:38:10 help him3:38:15 uh one other thing i could also add um3:38:18 just you know and again3:38:20 we're assuming that this is going to be3:38:22 you know3:38:23 we're as not assumed but as a brother3:38:26 sheriff said it's not that this is going3:38:28 to be used for akita for you know credo3:38:30 making credo judgments but3:38:33 just you know as another side no3:38:36 being and how like those 72 that are in3:38:39 hell it doesn't necessarily entail a3:38:41 permanent residence in hell3:38:44 yeah that could oh yeah that's all right3:38:46 that's right yeah he also mentioned that3:38:49 as well he was like preparing to go to3:38:50 hell and then one day i mean we were3:38:52 going to go to heaven anyways as long as3:38:53 you're a muslim and i'm like3:38:55 can you really3:38:57 you know bear the pain even for a while3:39:00 do you really want that pain so i was3:39:02 like you know3:39:03 a little bit3:39:05 inquisitive about that but yeah yeah if3:39:07 you guys don't mind can i ask like it's3:39:09 like not really a question but really3:39:12 like um i want to know what's your3:39:13 opinion on something3:39:16 yeah sure yeah we're gonna have to end3:39:18 the stream relatively soon so we'll3:39:20 probably leave this okay i'll try not to3:39:23 take your um3:39:25 time too much but i was thinking like3:39:27 i've been i've been living my whole life3:39:29 thinking that you know3:39:30 it's i think it's obvious that we should3:39:33 search happiness but then3:39:35 one day i was thinking like you know3:39:36 sometimes pain can bring benefit as well3:39:38 so i was thinking3:39:40 like maybe we're not fighting for3:39:42 happiness3:39:43 and and not desiring pain as well but3:39:45 rather like3:39:47 we desire happiness but pain is not3:39:49 desirable but it's just part of3:39:52 life when you're trying to search for3:39:54 the meaning of life3:39:55 and so i think3:39:57 one of the purpose of life is trying to3:39:59 find meaning and that meaning is3:40:02 different from like a muslim and a3:40:04 non-muslim3:40:05 or like an atheist or an atheist for3:40:08 example do you agree with that statement3:40:11 well let me understand so let me just3:40:13 really understand what you're trying to3:40:14 so you're saying that rather than being3:40:17 rather than trying to pursue happiness3:40:19 what we really should be doing is3:40:21 pursuing meaning and purpose3:40:23 yeah and then and that happiness and3:40:25 pain is what you get from you know3:40:27 searching that meaning3:40:30 okay so yeah yeah you gonna say3:40:33 i think you know there's a fundamental3:40:35 thing that needs to be kept in mind like3:40:37 you know what you're talking about what3:40:38 makes a person happy what makes a person3:40:41 you know sad these things the things3:40:42 that you brought up the3:40:44 these the feelings that we have they're3:40:46 also created by allah in us it's you3:40:50 know it's a basic example but like you3:40:52 didn't choose to like or dislike tea you3:40:55 just found yourself liking it or you3:40:57 didn't just now i'm not negating that we3:41:00 have3:41:01 the fact that we have choices we do have3:41:02 choices to actually drink it even if we3:41:05 like it or dislike it but we don't have3:41:07 that you know uh3:41:09 that it's programmed in us you know some3:41:11 people call that football or they call3:41:12 use other words for it3:41:14 that's fine that's not that you know the3:41:16 word's not important but so looking at3:41:19 that when you know chasing happiness i3:41:22 mean3:41:23 what makes you happy and in the end it3:41:24 is allah who's giving you that3:41:26 happiness uh3:41:28 you know maybe when somebody feels guilt3:41:30 shame or other things this is a message3:41:31 from allah a3:41:33 personal message from allah to the uh to3:41:36 his3:41:37 to his3:41:38 that this is something that is not3:41:41 wanted by god3:41:43 that's one way to think of it and that3:41:44 you know so you can one person finding3:41:46 the meaning now i agree3:41:47 the goal is to find the meaning but3:41:50 one shouldn't think then that3:41:53 3:41:54 finding happiness or receiving you know3:41:56 getting these feelings that they are3:41:58 not a part of that meaning or search of3:42:00 meaning they are a part of the meaning3:42:02 and you know in the end3:42:04 the uh or not in the end the beginning3:42:05 you know this means3:42:10 the3:42:10 read in the name of your lord who3:42:12 created who created them if you just3:42:14 stop at that one ayah you're basically3:42:16 getting at reading yeah search for3:42:18 meaning3:42:19 but in what way do you do that by3:42:22 reading3:42:24 the things that your lord created so if3:42:26 you you you know you see3:42:28 that3:42:29 you're not the owner necessarily of your3:42:33 of your feeling of you know you don't3:42:35 want to claim ownership over your your3:42:37 existence and that includes you know3:42:39 your feelings your emotions and other3:42:41 things these are also created as a3:42:44 message for you for all of us to read3:42:48 and then that is an integral part of the3:42:51 search for meaning it's not uh3:42:54 one needs to be careful3:42:55 it3:42:56 otherwise you could fall into you know3:42:59 the or a person could fall into the uh3:43:01 the respond which is something that3:43:02 we're not associated so it's kind of3:43:04 like a secularized search of meaning3:43:06 uh3:43:07 which you know the the the christians3:43:10 and the monasticism they kind of might3:43:11 have they might have fallen into that as3:43:14 the3:43:14 quran3:43:15 implies3:43:17 so3:43:18 that's something that one needs to keep3:43:19 in mind i think i don't want to ramble3:43:21 on too much3:43:22 yeah although the issue is it is odd3:43:25 isn't it pronouncing your name correct3:43:26 um it's ideal ideal3:43:29 idol okay like ideal i don't i think i3:43:32 don't know if that's how you guys call3:43:34 it all right3:43:35 uh yeah so hey sorry3:43:38 so the issue is this is that look3:43:40 whether you whether you're muslim or not3:43:42 muslim whether you're seeking purpose of3:43:44 life or not you're gonna face3:43:46 difficulties you're going to face what3:43:48 you like pleasures isn't it so it's not3:43:50 the3:43:51 the the idea is that okay we3:43:53 only want to strive to achieve happiness3:43:56 but then on the way you're going to face3:43:57 lots of problems and you may not be able3:44:00 to achieve ultimate ultimately what you3:44:03 perceive or what an individual might3:44:04 perceive as happiness3:44:06 so really that that becomes a bit of a3:44:08 meaningless3:44:10 utopian ideal that you're never going to3:44:12 get in this life so why seek something3:44:14 which is utopian i you're never going to3:44:16 achieve3:44:17 rather what you need to do you need to3:44:19 achieve what your purpose and meaning is3:44:21 and really to understand purpose and3:44:23 meaning3:44:24 really contextualizes the problems that3:44:27 you face and gives you ultimate3:44:29 happiness and tranquility within life3:44:31 because3:44:32 that allows you to navigate the3:44:34 difficulties as well as the happiness3:44:36 and the pleasures yeah3:44:38 so if you don't have that meaning and3:44:40 purpose3:44:41 then and you face difficulties maybe3:44:44 disease illness maybe loss of livelihood3:44:47 maybe loss of family member loss of3:44:49 health all of these types of things if3:44:51 they affect you and you're trying to say3:44:53 well my purpose of life is to try to3:44:55 achieve maximum happiness and you face3:44:57 these problems you're like people get3:44:59 really depressed whereas if you3:45:01 understand your purpose especially from3:45:02 an islamic paradigm then it becomes very3:45:04 easy to understand actually these are3:45:07 difficulties and tests that are tests3:45:09 given to me by allah that either3:45:12 eliminates my sins that raises my ranks3:45:15 before allah3:45:17 and therefore there is always a good and3:45:19 that whatever difficulties i face here3:45:21 which is will always be temporary but3:45:24 what will i achieve from those3:45:26 difficulties will be eternal paradise3:45:29 real happiness yeah3:45:31 so i think3:45:33 um you have to pursue purpose because3:45:36 purpose defines for us how to view3:45:40 issues regardless of life whether that's3:45:42 the ups or the downs because of that3:45:44 is that okay i idol i i i really like3:45:47 that because i learned something3:45:49 new from3:45:50 zakaria is that how you3:45:52 say yeah but yeah i'm because like i3:45:56 usually think that it's just happiness3:45:57 and pain it's just3:45:59 or3:46:00 rather joy and pain it's just part of3:46:02 searching meaning but he added that it3:46:04 is also part of meaning3:46:06 not just like in the searching of it3:46:08 which which i really really appreciate3:46:10 it thank you so much3:46:13 for coming on i do appreciate you coming3:46:15 on3:46:16 thank you thank you3:46:21 okay so i think we're gonna wrap up here3:46:24 thank you everybody just really quickly3:46:26 go ahead layman sent a five uh is that3:46:30 five euro superchat3:46:32 and he also became a3:46:35 member3:46:36 to uh to the youtube channel so just to3:46:39 remind the audience as well that he can3:46:42 you know help us out in terms of3:46:44 becoming members to the channel or just3:46:47 help us on patreon or things like that3:46:50 so you know3:46:52 layman's one of our biggest fans by the3:46:54 way his3:46:55 supporters so yeah3:46:58 oh and also paypal paypal is a good uh3:47:00 way to help support us it's all in the3:47:02 links3:47:03 so insha'allah brothers can uh check3:47:05 that out3:47:07 so um yes3:47:10 anything to add any final words3:47:14 i mean it's always good to see you i i3:47:16 miss you all and i missed the the time3:47:18 that we would spend together this is a3:47:20 nice uh refreshing3:47:22 3:47:23 come together for lack of a better word3:47:26 yeah it was really good having you on3:47:28 and and we miss you too and inshallah we3:47:30 can3:47:31 talk again soon inshallah3:47:33 so um sharif anything else to say3:47:36 uh we have mao pass coming on soon maybe3:47:38 we can announce that's what i was gonna3:47:39 say that's uh that's exactly what i was3:47:41 gonna say probably our next stream will3:47:43 be3:47:44 with alex malpass alex malpass so okay i3:47:47 think this is the first time we're3:47:48 actually announcing it it's on the 17th3:47:51 it's on the seventh we've got the timing3:47:52 yeah3:47:53 we haven't got the timing yet3:47:55 we'll get the timing and we'll put it3:47:57 out there soon3:47:58 so it's on the 17th3:48:00 uh3:48:01 sometime around3:48:03 the the normal time we we normally do3:48:05 our uh3:48:06 streams uh maybe a bit earlier than that3:48:09 uh probably not later so so yeah we'll3:48:11 announce that soon so everybody keep3:48:13 tuned for that it should be a good3:48:15 discussion inshallah sure and yeah thank3:48:18 you everybody for joining uh sharif3:48:20 zakaria uh3:48:22 jake he had to leave by the way3:48:24 something came up thank you guys so much3:48:26 and thanks everybody for joining and we3:48:30 hope to see you soon again inshallah3:48:41 3:48:44 family3:49:04 you

As-salamu alaykum! Content by SirVival