Exploitation in the Muslim Community - How Fringe Religious Groups Form (2019-07-10) ​

0:00:02 assalamu aleikum wa rahmatullah wa
0:00:04 barakato
0:00:07 group Group ISM and sectarianism is one
0:00:11 of the main challenges within the Muslim
0:00:13 community the Quran says what awesome
0:00:16 will be happened in Lehi Jemmy annual a
0:00:18 tough arauco hold tight to the Rope of
0:00:21 Allah and do not become disunited one of
0:00:26 the main groups that facilitates a
0:00:32 disunity is the Salafi publications this
0:00:37 is at least the allegation we'll be
0:00:39 talking about this and more things which
0:00:42 are quite severe today with dr. Hopp
0:00:46 Quebec Abdul Haq Baker dr. Abdul Haq
0:00:50 Baker is a professor in political
0:00:52 sciences who has published a book on
0:00:56 extremism and is notable in the
0:01:00 community he will be shedding light on
0:01:03 his interactions with this group the
0:01:06 subgroup that claim to be Salafi and as
0:01:09 a result of that claim consider other
0:01:14 people other Muslims to be innovators
0:01:16 and treat them with a high level of
0:01:18 disrespect what will be unraveled in
0:01:21 this discussion is some frankly quite
0:01:27 hard claims that are made against this
0:01:30 group regarding how they interact with
0:01:34 not only Muslim people generally but
0:01:37 that how they may be exploiting certain
0:01:40 vulnerable Muslims in the community
0:01:42 including women it's important that
0:01:45 Muslims and non-muslims alike are aware
0:01:47 of this not only because it shows that
0:01:50 were being self reflective in a greater
0:01:52 Muslim community sense but because
0:01:55 people do need to be warned against the
0:01:57 excesses and the exploitative practices
0:02:02 of such group members for this reason
0:02:07 this interview with a black Baker where
0:02:09 he attempts to actually provide
0:02:10 evidences which will be providing the
0:02:12 disc
0:02:13 books is an important one for UK Muslims
0:02:16 and Salafis in particular who interact
0:02:20 with other selfies and might be at risk
0:02:21 of potential harm from both an
0:02:24 ideological perspective and from on a
0:02:28 pragmatic level so we'll go straight
0:02:36 into the interview and I want you to
0:02:39 your own words describe what Salafism or
0:02:41 sell a few Dowell what does it mean to
0:02:43 you salaphi Dow means referring to the
0:02:48 illustrious times of death to harbor the
0:02:50 Sahaba companions of the profits of the
0:02:52 Lycian and the succeeding two
0:02:54 generations because if these were the
0:02:57 errors that were attested to by the
0:02:58 promises that must be in the best
0:03:00 so salafiyyah salafism references that
0:03:04 and authenticity that emanates from that
0:03:07 particular period as well as the
0:03:09 methodology in disseminating
0:03:11 understanding and contextualizing the
0:03:14 practice of Islam right so now what
0:03:18 people find is that a lot of people call
0:03:21 themselves Salafi and they ascribed
0:03:23 particular groups and sects in your
0:03:25 understanding is this what you make of
0:03:27 Salafism will sell a few down no because
0:03:30 Salafi Dawa salafism is not a set or a
0:03:34 group contrary to common academic
0:03:39 perspectives are being put out
0:03:41 concerning it there is no group in the
0:03:44 sense that you have to belong and have
0:03:45 membership to an organisation the
0:03:48 description to the seller and not only
0:03:50 the description just lip service but in
0:03:52 your character in your application in
0:03:55 your approach in your interaction in
0:03:57 Deen and dunya these are the elements
0:04:00 that showed that that ascription is
0:04:02 actually being embodied by that
0:04:04 particular individual right so now I'm
0:04:07 coming more into like the UK context and
0:04:10 the Dower that has been done in the UK
0:04:12 the propagation of islam through a
0:04:14 Salafi lens if you like my question now
0:04:17 is with your interaction with different
0:04:19 Salafi groups well you found generally
0:04:21 to be the case in terms of groupers and
0:04:23 insects
0:04:25 up until a particular point in the
0:04:28 nineties when I could be gangs in 1990
0:04:31 up to the mid 90s there was uniformity
0:04:34 and there was one main organization Jim
0:04:37 asked a mechanic moujik Minh had a Sunna
0:04:39 which was consolidating the body of
0:04:42 Muslims in a sense in his in his own way
0:04:44 it was a hit and we gradually moved away
0:04:47 from that but there was unity on the on
0:04:50 the whole with the Muslims and the Dow
0:04:52 art was being spread engaging across
0:04:55 universities with the wider Muslim
0:04:56 populace and people genuinely liked the
0:05:00 message of Sophia and the behavior of
0:05:02 the selfies at that time there was that
0:05:04 excessiveness to an extent but we were
0:05:06 out looking and embracing that changed
0:05:10 when we saw I will say in the West for
0:05:13 the first time the emergence of a cult
0:05:15 so what is this cult would you link it
0:05:18 directly with the silicon publications
0:05:20 and what would you say this actually
0:05:23 this division took place this division
0:05:27 is very good and putting in question it
0:05:29 refers to sell a few publications who
0:05:32 emerged on the 8th at the end of the
0:05:35 fracturing of Jameson the members of Jim
0:05:37 Adler and I would say personally a key
0:05:40 proponent and a key
0:05:43 I'd say aspect of that emergence was to
0:05:46 do with an individual who then joined
0:05:48 the ranks of the Salafis of the wire
0:05:51 Allah Hubble Khadijah hmm
0:05:53 and towards the end of 95 and especially
0:05:56 in 1996 we saw movements and read
0:06:00 consolidation of some of the former
0:06:02 members of Hamas around and behind Apple
0:06:05 Khadija and this was something
0:06:07 surprising because I didn't know where
0:06:09 he came from many of us didn't know
0:06:11 where he emanated from he wasn't on
0:06:12 Serafina or even existing as a selfie in
0:06:15 the early part of the 90s as we were
0:06:17 writing and the further wouldn't sell if
0:06:19 he publications in the initial stage
0:06:21 they called themselves ASIS
0:06:22 well that's contrary to what he says in
0:06:24 one voice not that we've picked up from
0:06:26 him online where he says that he was
0:06:28 maybe upon Salafi own his own words from
0:06:31 the earth from the late 80s early 90s
0:06:34 all that footage that you you picked up
0:06:36 he claimed that he was Salafi from 1988
0:06:39 and that he was learning from students
0:06:41 of knowledge who were going to the
0:06:43 scholars I will say categorically that's
0:06:46 a lie in 1992-1993 his brother
0:06:51 approached a balloon Tasya the head
0:06:53 optimist asked him if some brothers
0:06:57 could give dower to his brother Abu
0:06:59 Khadijah after white because he was on
0:07:02 the quote jihadi wipe following what was
0:07:05 taking place in Bosnia what does that
0:07:07 mean exactly what did you did you see
0:07:08 any kind of extremism
0:07:10 well for the understanding that the
0:07:13 jihadi bride was one of attack Theory
0:07:15 karate boy and it was his brother and
0:07:17 brought that to the individuals and I
0:07:20 know individuals who went and gave him
0:07:22 dower they've communicated with me
0:07:24 directly
0:07:24 we were amongst that group who
0:07:27 communicated with him gave him dower and
0:07:29 then he started coming to the Salafi way
0:07:31 right and so his breaking away from the
0:07:36 main body of Saladin as it were and
0:07:38 making his own group up and actually
0:07:41 sign up as a company changing into a
0:07:43 charity getting funds from government
0:07:46 getting funds from the general public
0:07:47 you're saying that was a pivotal turning
0:07:50 point and 1996 was a year yes you can
0:07:52 report with the Oasis conference in what
0:07:54 they did is most of the known speakers
0:07:57 from selfie earn groups sensitive group
0:08:00 Hamas including sheiks of paper they
0:08:03 produce a paper Sonya they put all our
0:08:06 names on a poster saying there was going
0:08:08 to be a conference we'll put this poster
0:08:10 ah yes it's all put the poster in the
0:08:14 description box and or you'll be seeing
0:08:16 it here and what's interesting about
0:08:17 that I poster when you look at the
0:08:19 lineup there are two columns and you'll
0:08:21 see the - why the sheiks our home yeah
0:08:23 so much Nicholas I'm happy going down
0:08:26 after Rahim green individuals like this
0:08:28 will saw my house I'm from Queens now
0:08:30 all Quilliam the next column started
0:08:32 with my name at the top but and you'll
0:08:33 see the Abba Khadijah and I'm get Rafiq
0:08:37 were further down on the second column
0:08:39 indicative of their significance I know
0:08:43 this was in feigning piety to to try
0:08:46 shall we
0:08:47 we caught my name's at the top because
0:08:48 we're not so renowned alumnus to our to
0:08:50 that particular time but your name was
0:08:52 on this as well my name was on the
0:08:54 beginning of the second contract so they
0:08:57 didn't tell me about this they didn't
0:08:59 notify a number of you so you can your
0:09:00 name was on it I mean you don't nobody
0:09:02 know about it when I saw this I
0:09:04 considered it as many of my colleagues
0:09:05 in Brixton this was a Power Move that
0:09:08 they were making you soon claimed
0:09:10 ascendancy and I said I will not even
0:09:12 attend the conference what you're
0:09:13 effectively saying is that they tried to
0:09:15 grab market share from the seller for
0:09:17 community yes to get everyone from all
0:09:20 these other yes right to come to their
0:09:24 group and so that they can kind of break
0:09:26 away with them yes and this is the thing
0:09:28 it's interesting you use the term
0:09:30 breakaway because there you have since
0:09:32 that time until now light to the
0:09:35 scholars saying the individuals are
0:09:38 attacking the seller fees then and are
0:09:40 breaking away and splitting from them
0:09:42 when the actuality as you proceed down
0:09:45 the years and the evidence has been
0:09:47 produced by myself and some of my own
0:09:49 podcasting and such like you'll see that
0:09:52 while the name of the clock Chronicles
0:09:55 of UK Salafism right and then the more
0:09:57 specific documented things that I've
0:09:59 been doing for about two years now
0:10:00 cultures tendencies so they'll be in the
0:10:03 description box for those who won't
0:10:04 watch and in those you'll see the
0:10:07 breaking of agreements which they
0:10:08 accused others off but it was them who
0:10:10 continually did not and consistently did
0:10:13 not adhere to agreement
0:10:15 what sort of weight on them is there any
0:10:17 evidence of that yes so for example one
0:10:20 of this one of the agreements that was
0:10:22 quite public was the one in 1999 yes
0:10:25 between the seller the seller fees in
0:10:29 Brixton and Luton on the one hand and
0:10:31 then you had those in Birmingham and a
0:10:34 model B personality was was there as one
0:10:38 of the the arbitrator as you can see all
0:10:39 the judges could you tell us a little
0:10:41 bit more about that agreement what
0:10:43 happened that how how was that kind of
0:10:45 reformulated utter right very very good
0:10:48 question in 1999 a Bahasa and mattre be
0:10:53 assumed a man he was called and
0:10:56 Matra because at Newton Yemen he became
0:10:59 very well known due to a sitting that he
0:11:01 had with check out of an Amish a fella
0:11:04 banging at the time now there was
0:11:06 excitement about the level of knowledge
0:11:07 that they were hearing in the industry
0:11:09 sex and it was being translated to us so
0:11:11 he was invited to the UK we invited into
0:11:14 a return to in conference in Brixton and
0:11:16 he accepted their own invitation when he
0:11:20 came to the masculine we were ready to
0:11:22 explain the program we received a phone
0:11:25 call from a mother ship who was a Medina
0:11:28 student and Farouk since passed away
0:11:32 Rome a lot from East London they
0:11:34 insisted on coming the seniors ship they
0:11:37 came in to visit the the Sheikh and we
0:11:39 were like they gatecrash them for in the
0:11:40 Sheikh said no I'm your guest let me see
0:11:42 who I want to see and they came in a
0:11:44 very pompous letter we are from self few
0:11:46 publications we want to sit with you to
0:11:48 ask if you will arbitrate in a matter
0:11:50 that dispute we have between Newton I
0:11:53 didn't mention us between Birmingham and
0:11:54 Newton and they start their letter
0:11:56 started words of praise from de Scarlett
0:11:58 Escada discard that's why I say pompous
0:12:00 Allen haff then agreed and said he will
0:12:04 sit and preside over that affair they
0:12:07 should bring their evidences he made
0:12:09 time for them he changed the whole
0:12:10 program with the conference and we were
0:12:11 bit disheartened about that and when he
0:12:13 listened to Luton he said I see Brixton
0:12:16 as having similar grievances you haven't
0:12:18 complained but you are closer to Luton
0:12:20 new to a one-party
0:12:21 Birmingham or another party after
0:12:24 process of arbitration getting to the
0:12:25 point he sat and he gave
0:12:28 he's decisive ruling on the affair wave
0:12:32 shakes an American ally and doctor
0:12:34 Giovanni was there with him and they
0:12:35 were 26 I believe points and they gave
0:12:38 those points but then they contacted
0:12:40 Sheikh Rabia and said we want you to
0:12:43 read these points about mathematically
0:12:45 we wanted you to read these points and
0:12:48 confirm whether you find them acceptable
0:12:50 and you agree with them you have any
0:12:52 evidence for this I have the original
0:12:54 agreement Arabic I have the translation
0:12:56 from dr. G Bailey and I have the audio
0:12:58 when Sheikh when when abu hassun
0:13:01 sat and read out the points with both
0:13:03 parties gathered at that time so I'll
0:13:06 put on the description course
0:13:07 Arabic in English yes and if you want
0:13:09 the audio it's quite grainy but you can
0:13:11 still hear our model has some speaking
0:13:13 at that time is it's coincidental
0:13:16 because on that day and I don't say this
0:13:19 such is the cowardice of these
0:13:21 individuals our Khadija had excused
0:13:23 himself and I believe he generally
0:13:25 genuinely was travelling to Kuwait to
0:13:27 see our Ana's but he'd written to or
0:13:29 given a message to other Hasan to say
0:13:32 that he does you will not be there but
0:13:34 he will abide by whatever agreement was
0:13:37 there and I would have sent fainted that
0:13:39 Joaquin was there Mirada desert yeah I'm
0:13:42 a bishop so what happened now when they
0:13:45 wrote the agreement they fasted to shake
0:13:48 Rabia he was on the phone I left the
0:13:51 Brixton office cuz we couldn't receive
0:13:52 faxes we could send faxes and I went to
0:13:55 the highroad there was a Muslim hardware
0:13:58 store for spunky I called the brothers
0:14:00 I'm coming with giving you a number for
0:14:02 fat shake Rodney's Denise ending effects
0:14:04 I received a fax personally I don't
0:14:07 speak Arabic so I can't say what was in
0:14:08 there and everything I walked back
0:14:09 handed it to Hassan Sheikh see me it was
0:14:13 still on the fun to shake regret then
0:14:16 they break it up and it was they confirm
0:14:18 the shake foot rub he confirmed his
0:14:19 endorsement and acceptance and yummier
0:14:22 that's their shake Robbie's original
0:14:24 handwritten note with his signatures as
0:14:27 well and what happened thereafter
0:14:30 clearly there was upset by one sight
0:14:36 bourbon in sight and after Mohammed
0:14:40 Sheikh Salim asked us to come out to the
0:14:42 conference audience and give a few words
0:14:45 to say that in general words were given
0:14:47 about slaw and coming together with
0:14:49 brothers beloved aims I've got that
0:14:51 cassette as well if you want me to send
0:14:52 giving you that everyone spoke but they
0:14:54 shortly afterwards we heard about Mirada
0:14:56 chapters Josiah was one of it was one of
0:14:59 them from Manchester who they likened to
0:15:01 that Ali Medini of the UK this is what
0:15:05 they said about him it was fine but he
0:15:06 was written off shortly afterwards by
0:15:08 them as well and he went to Saudi and he
0:15:11 met sheikh Robert and basically it was
0:15:14 the process of then undoing the
0:15:16 agreement and to our surprise Sheikh
0:15:19 Robby reneged
0:15:20 and canceled his endorsement of the
0:15:23 agreement all of this yeah I saw him
0:15:26 when you saw that we were very surprised
0:15:28 jordania shook of a surprise but because
0:15:31 he this was the for us he had the
0:15:33 ability to do that yes because everyone
0:15:36 would look to shake Robbie over these
0:15:38 Affairs and the Jordanians were close to
0:15:41 shake Robbie at the time as well so when
0:15:43 we saw this we thought we know we've had
0:15:46 any choice but to say we are no longer
0:15:48 with this agreement but until this day
0:15:51 now and probably after this recording
0:15:54 and interview with yourself we may have
0:15:57 angiography doctor and let the feet
0:15:59 coming back with these pages of
0:16:01 reputation other than how cool to be
0:16:03 sitting at little bit touches up this is
0:16:06 I think you know what we're gonna talk
0:16:07 about I'm gonna feel right now it every
0:16:10 moving in just a second finish this
0:16:12 point because we need to know war what
0:16:14 these characters not individuals who
0:16:15 actually who facilitated this breakaway
0:16:18 and who in your in your understanding
0:16:21 facilitative of this cult yes well at
0:16:24 the helm was Abu Khadijah of the why
0:16:27 they laugh about how King Billy Davis
0:16:29 use of Bowers and génifique these were
0:16:33 main protagonists and going on this you
0:16:37 mentioned some of the antagonists of
0:16:38 buildings ahead of a Hadiya Bill Davis
0:16:44 who's full Davis and a few so could you
0:16:51 tell us what the level of training and
0:16:53 qualification is in the Islamic Sciences
0:16:55 very rudimentary if that and I'm not
0:16:59 professing diverse students knowledge no
0:17:01 in another academic field yes but let's
0:17:04 start with Bill and Davis Paul Davis
0:17:06 Apple hockey a blacking felled in Medina
0:17:10 University on a number of occasions okay
0:17:13 repointing kept trying reapply I'm gonna
0:17:15 being out there with warmer up on one
0:17:17 occasion and meeting him and the
0:17:18 brothers told me he's reapplying yet
0:17:20 again to get back into University and he
0:17:22 felt so unless he's got any
0:17:25 qualifications after that he's Arabic
0:17:27 was quite good and from what I
0:17:29 understood from those who know
0:17:31 and heard his Harbach and listen to he
0:17:33 was good in these proficient in Arabic
0:17:34 but he didn't graduate like a number of
0:17:37 them I don't actually know in myself I
0:17:40 did you try and babble Khadija I believe
0:17:43 was got a degree in teaching and not
0:17:46 much else other than that I'm genifique
0:17:49 from the point of academia and he's
0:17:51 quite a good scientist yes he's got I
0:17:54 believe he's got a PhD in biochemistry
0:17:56 and I actually read a very good paper
0:17:59 and it's unfortunate as I read this
0:18:00 paper when he was criticizing me for
0:18:02 speaking from the realm of academia but
0:18:05 he wrote a very good paper with two
0:18:07 months limb academics on pasteurized
0:18:10 milk so from that perspective I said in
0:18:13 one of my series that he should stick to
0:18:16 his lane remain in his lane about
0:18:18 pasteurized milk and I suppose that I
0:18:20 would say this in respectful of
0:18:23 disrespectful way if he knows about
0:18:26 regurgitation okay and if that's his
0:18:30 Lane then I call him according to what
0:18:33 he specialises in it the milkshake so
0:18:36 that's his speciality so there's no miss
0:18:39 lemon no but we know that he's an avid
0:18:42 keyboard warrior and warrior from the
0:18:45 pages that even these people why do they
0:18:48 not come out to the public realm and
0:18:51 face the public I mean you only hear I
0:18:54 mean
0:18:54 rarely do you see videos of those
0:18:56 individuals you hear voice notes you see
0:18:58 pages that they've written and put up on
0:19:02 you know their Twitter feeds on up you
0:19:03 don't actually see them coming up what
0:19:05 is the reason for that I would say
0:19:06 amongst leadership you will see one to
0:19:09 cowardice
0:19:10 amongst the leaders and you'll see an
0:19:13 element of house Negro ISM from those
0:19:15 who follow I will Khadija as lackeys
0:19:18 which is which is unfortunate or
0:19:19 fortunate what I would say though and
0:19:21 say to qualify now I'm not speaking
0:19:23 about some of the followers of the cult
0:19:27 because many of them are sincere yes
0:19:29 many of them any Muslims my PhD talks
0:19:32 about stages of development with regards
0:19:34 to youthful foundational stages and
0:19:39 we published it yeah it might be at
0:19:41 least published yes the boss called
0:19:43 discreteness in them it's confronting
0:19:45 terror attack and empty shower and so I
0:19:49 talked about those stages so you can see
0:19:50 that they're the very beginning
0:19:52 rudimentary stage that many of us must
0:19:54 have gone through when we converted to
0:19:57 Islam or when we reverted as the
0:20:00 second-generation Muslim third
0:20:02 generation will spin so I don't include
0:20:04 them when I'm talking at this level of
0:20:05 critiquing yeah well we're not speaking
0:20:07 about the leader mr. Bishop it's
0:20:08 unfettered Hammami is another individual
0:20:13 who's got his PhD I think he studied he
0:20:17 did it on TAS tier of Quran in this
0:20:19 instance he studied and supervisors yes
0:20:26 one of the supervisors was a specialist
0:20:28 in eroticism and translated a book from
0:20:31 Tartine see who's a rafflesia and so but
0:20:34 I hit this and our research and my
0:20:38 colleagues research and he's written
0:20:39 something like 50 pages about Abdul
0:20:41 Allah and in my series called silence of
0:20:44 the Lamb and I bring this evidence yes
0:20:46 and so we say why he was involved in
0:20:50 some controversy surrounding raisins
0:20:53 knows that as well
0:20:54 yes surrounding and Omar was here
0:20:58 talking about you know keep up the
0:21:00 comply all of that yes
0:21:01 yeah saying that they're not actually in
0:21:05 1996-97 when I went on Omar and I met
0:21:08 Abdullah there there he was working in
0:21:11 the school dharmaiah which I
0:21:13 subsequently worked in got a job and
0:21:14 worked in afterwards I remember him
0:21:17 studying with student calls from Sri
0:21:20 Lanka called yeah yes in me and that
0:21:23 student was teaching something that was
0:21:25 very doubt for them worrying but I've
0:21:28 didn't there had embraced that because
0:21:29 he came to me and showed me an open the
0:21:32 first page of a book from shaken sangmi
0:21:34 and pointed to the introduction in
0:21:36 arabic again insan' he told me he read
0:21:38 it in Arabic and he said shaken save me
0:21:40 and he referred to shake him in bars I'm
0:21:41 not selling food they are Hamburg and I
0:21:47 have challenged him even shake Robbie's
0:21:49 house in 2002
0:21:51 when we had to meet for another slap and
0:21:54 I said I'm going to bring to shake a rug
0:21:56 beer what you said about the key Bart
0:21:59 Willem are that they will not sell a few
0:22:00 no she wasn't been saying this for for
0:22:03 them this is a big disgrace to say
0:22:05 something like that yes and he went
0:22:07 paler than usual and put his head down
0:22:10 and said I was very foolish at that time
0:22:12 but that doesn't suffice as a
0:22:14 recantation right and to date I will
0:22:17 continue to say to the camera you need
0:22:20 to recount we don't see much recantation
0:22:23 from this group anyway because it's
0:22:25 arrogance yes this is a premise of
0:22:27 arrogance they would rather disparage
0:22:30 shoe York as we've seen that they've
0:22:32 done and if I can say for the record
0:22:34 rather Mohamed many are using the term
0:22:36 that they've dropped many chinook and I
0:22:39 think we need to redress that the shoe
0:22:41 you realized the reality of them and
0:22:44 left them or advise them and as a result
0:22:48 of that they saw it necessary to
0:22:50 disparage those you even going and lying
0:22:53 to the ship that they go to think
0:22:56 they're actually but we don't restrict
0:22:58 to one or two New York and then getting
0:23:01 edicts Ottawa and evidences Egret even
0:23:05 if they were general to disparage Doshi
0:23:08 you could say we've left them because
0:23:09 they were on the sky how many did they
0:23:11 have and how many do they have the last
0:23:13 count that I when I did in one of my
0:23:15 series was around 26 but I'm sure that
0:23:18 they were once with now against them or
0:23:21 not with them okay
0:23:23 now I believe there's just three of them
0:23:25 after what we see is that while we
0:23:28 respect over Lamar we saw from the cult
0:23:33 as I called in my wickedly J's is why I
0:23:35 called them we saw from them that
0:23:38 they're raising of scholars who did not
0:23:41 have official positions other than
0:23:44 teachers for example or seniority to
0:23:46 give fatwa from Saudi Arabia and this
0:23:52 was confusing a number of Salafis who
0:23:55 began to see the shook as the shield the
0:23:59 scholars that you have to go to and you
0:24:00 saw in direct this
0:24:03 iseman of scholars big scholars like
0:24:07 shake up and once enough in that bad we
0:24:09 saw disrespect being meted out to shake
0:24:12 waseela Abbas who had met these
0:24:14 individuals personally in Birmingham and
0:24:16 spoken concerning them
0:24:18 so actually refuted them my name he did
0:24:22 and then you see that Amal Khadijah and
0:24:24 others then felt it upon themselves took
0:24:26 it upon themselves that they could speak
0:24:28 disrespectfully against scholars and you
0:24:33 see that now from one of their longtime
0:24:35 scholars sheikh mohammed bin ali he had
0:24:38 ever worked for 20 years
0:24:39 yes who some of us had disagreements
0:24:42 with and split from because of his he's
0:24:46 favori and listening to them as though
0:24:49 they were the only seller fees and a
0:24:50 clear selling fees among the seller fees
0:24:54 in the West and let's say probably they
0:24:56 laughed so clear that they're
0:24:57 transparent you can see from them that's
0:24:59 as clear as they get so that is what we
0:25:02 saw from them with regards to the
0:25:04 scholars now they are down to not even a
0:25:08 handful scholars now so they praise
0:25:10 excessively and then they and then they
0:25:13 dispraise yes successively as we saw in
0:25:16 the document that I've given to Muhammad
0:25:18 Ali Hasan they called him allama Ali
0:25:21 Hassan has spoken we wait for the latch
0:25:24 not to correct his mistake this document
0:25:27 this is an email Abu Khadijah so it was
0:25:30 challenged they were challenging the
0:25:31 legend of the Energy Council of Saudi
0:25:33 Arabians they see is the ultimate
0:25:34 authority yes and then they quickly this
0:25:37 brazen email 5th of October 2000 from
0:25:41 Hubble Khadija in the groups they
0:25:42 emailed it to and beat both works at lab
0:25:45 ah and Hassan has spoken and this is a
0:25:48 thing that they do then he becomes the
0:25:51 chef tattle cook against for all they
0:25:52 become item take that is removed and it
0:25:54 just become a regular job yeah and this
0:25:57 has another case yes and this is
0:25:59 something that is really strange in
0:26:02 Islam yes
0:26:03 a sheikh is a [ __ ] yeah he loses
0:26:06 knowledge is actually exactly right so
0:26:08 know one thing once otherwise did the
0:26:11 divisive nature of this group you talked
0:26:14 about one of your main
0:26:15 concerns working with the community of a
0:26:17 grassroots level you very well known in
0:26:19 South London for doing that is that this
0:26:22 actually calls family strain family
0:26:24 problems between even husband and wife
0:26:27 we've got reports that elbow khadija for
0:26:30 example would be responsible for the
0:26:32 horses and actually you could say
0:26:35 misplaced you could say you know meddle
0:26:40 with family business yes it's just all
0:26:43 these true rumors I've got first-hand
0:26:44 accounts from X MUX about individuals
0:26:47 who I'm in touch with now now they split
0:26:49 him from his wife so what can you tell
0:26:51 us is this a case study here this is a
0:26:53 case study but I will refer to the one
0:26:54 I've got documentation from right I mean
0:26:56 awaits a student in Modena right and
0:26:59 started getting calls from his wife
0:27:01 because she was being approached from
0:27:03 some of the cult members sisters and
0:27:05 saying that your husband has taken a
0:27:08 position but about the tip in a scholar
0:27:10 right I can't recall which is one of the
0:27:12 big scholars and the husband and it was
0:27:15 a point of for all not my son
0:27:17 there's a big issue here and basically
0:27:20 those sisters were saying that your
0:27:22 husband is not sarahfey and they were
0:27:24 being driven by their husband to do this
0:27:27 and he was writing and the brother who
0:27:30 was an arbitrator came to me and said
0:27:31 can I share this information with you I
0:27:34 didn't know what I could do in that
0:27:35 instance but he shaved and I read the
0:27:37 information and letters from the brother
0:27:38 after communication and he said I want
0:27:40 to speak to uh Khadija how am I not
0:27:41 sarahfey how what are these individuals
0:27:43 doing then he wrote to another brother
0:27:47 my family I do not know where they are
0:27:50 Wow when he went back to the UK to
0:27:52 Birmingham they've been moved from their
0:27:55 home by a provision by the demotic a lot
0:27:57 they've been relocated okay yes from and
0:28:00 he said this is what they have done I
0:28:02 don't know where my wife is
0:28:03 Wow so this was something that was very
0:28:05 serious and I couldn't provide you with
0:28:08 the letters and everything it was
0:28:09 written using an English Bible by the
0:28:11 brother
0:28:12 and as I've set up even communication
0:28:14 with other individuals who have told me
0:28:17 what happened with regards to the occult
0:28:19 to be involved in splitting their wife
0:28:22 from fonda what is the incentive for
0:28:24 this I mean when they do that when they
0:28:26 split their
0:28:27 for example is there is there a marital
0:28:31 incentive did you think that they try
0:28:33 and maybe get married to these women
0:28:35 after they've been divorced or and I
0:28:37 can't say what incentive is yes but then
0:28:39 you do see marriage afterwards to the
0:28:41 most orange member so wait so you're
0:28:43 saying there's a trend of after
0:28:45 separation between someone for example
0:28:47 that they disapprove off that they
0:28:50 themselves would put themselves forward
0:28:52 for or someone who's approved by them
0:28:55 for much yes well that says a lot to be
0:28:59 honest with you and is it what else is
0:29:01 there in terms of incentive what is
0:29:03 driving these individuals to be like
0:29:05 that so divisive and sorry into and
0:29:07 their power and control power and
0:29:10 control yes I know students of knowledge
0:29:13 who have graduated from Wadena living in
0:29:17 Saudi Arabia and you can see that they
0:29:21 are mouthpieces for these individuals
0:29:23 and they're almost scared to interact
0:29:25 with other individuals who are known
0:29:27 seller fees because of what may happen
0:29:31 as a result they may send out general
0:29:35 emails of things that are translated and
0:29:37 I might speak to one or two of them and
0:29:40 they blind copy me and other individuals
0:29:43 in case the girls from the mock sob are
0:29:45 seeing that they're including
0:29:46 individuals who they have issues with
0:29:48 this is this bullying you can only bully
0:29:51 weak people and the bully themselves a
0:29:54 weak as you know and this is a manner
0:29:56 that they've got when more robust
0:29:58 individuals come and confront or speak
0:30:01 not just I'm not talking just about
0:30:02 violence in that instance but when they
0:30:04 know individuals have a bit of
0:30:06 testicular fortitude if you like you
0:30:09 will see them very cautious in that
0:30:11 particular instance um I'll give an
0:30:12 example I want to make sure I'm giving
0:30:13 evidence when Salafi man hatch my
0:30:16 colleagues in Brixton did this booklet
0:30:18 to refute use of Bowers who gave a
0:30:21 revisionist version of Salafi down which
0:30:24 completely false
0:30:25 and he included Brixton in that document
0:30:29 was compiled with research interviews
0:30:31 everything that could be made available
0:30:32 and a visit was made to him to give him
0:30:35 a letter to verify and maybe
0:30:38 draw the revisionists lights that he'd
0:30:41 said on youtube before they launched his
0:30:43 document when they went up to Birmingham
0:30:46 to deliver the letter
0:30:47 I hate seem to have no violence or
0:30:48 anything like this he refused to come
0:30:50 out of his house they asked him to meet
0:30:53 somewhere he said what do you want I
0:30:54 want to give you something and infused
0:30:56 to come I said please deliver it to my
0:30:58 shop of chicken shop or whatever shot
0:31:00 Lee had why do I bring this this is a
0:31:02 trend of these individuals the leaders
0:31:05 and I repeat it's cowardice plain and
0:31:08 simple well you've given us a lot of
0:31:12 information if you've basically showed
0:31:14 us that there have been people that have
0:31:17 been breaking their agreements the
0:31:19 initiators of division division within
0:31:22 family and you've given a case study
0:31:25 example which I'm sure the evidence will
0:31:26 be in the description box you've you've
0:31:29 got chronicles which people can refer to
0:31:31 that outline all of these things in
0:31:33 chronological format with documentation
0:31:36 with documentation as well
0:31:37 I mean documentation from them from that
0:31:40 way I'm not giving things I've just told
0:31:42 you that email from Hubble Khadija noted
0:31:45 the 5th of October 2000
0:31:47 documents from them what now as a final
0:31:51 question my question is what advice
0:31:53 would you give to someone who is stuck
0:31:55 in this in this group in the sect
0:31:59 what would you do Oh kind of us would
0:32:02 you give them maybe they maybe they've
0:32:03 realized these things that you're
0:32:05 talking about and they've had suspicions
0:32:07 of it what is he main kind of
0:32:09 overarching but it gives me my watch and
0:32:11 advice would be that these are a very
0:32:14 small insignificant but loud cut and
0:32:19 they only have to refer to a cult that
0:32:23 emerged in Dessau Arabia with the
0:32:27 juhayman and how they started the one
0:32:31 who tried to overtake the one foeman's
0:32:32 held a harem the madam of the makkah for
0:32:35 siege and how they emerged in the
0:32:40 beginning they had scholars with them
0:32:42 right before they went to their extremes
0:32:45 chez Caliban Sheikh bin bass shake all
0:32:49 sake of shaker and mock me
0:32:51 I mean up in Balad Philippines no
0:32:54 wearing the same skills of the three
0:32:55 first feet I've mentioned but as a
0:32:56 student because he gave a detailed
0:32:58 account of being with them and when they
0:33:00 started pulling away from these
0:33:02 individuals and left them completely and
0:33:05 when you look up but the parallels that
0:33:07 are there you'll see that there's an
0:33:10 extremism behavioral extremism not
0:33:12 violent extremist tap-tap theory you'll
0:33:14 see this of behavioral extremism and
0:33:16 Gulu among this cult in splitting
0:33:20 disparaging and marginalizing anyone who
0:33:24 does not agree with their view and
0:33:26 there's an element of shake worship here
0:33:29 we are Salafi z-- what excessive I would
0:33:32 say in our condemnation of individuals
0:33:36 who follow the map when you say [ __ ] or
0:33:37 worship and you're using in the math for
0:33:39 example sense yeah yeah in the sense
0:33:42 that now you'll see that the type of
0:33:46 blind following they do or shake rub it
0:33:48 nothing a lot it's reprehensible more
0:33:51 reprehensible than those who are
0:33:53 following the mother in form of that now
0:33:55 and this is these individuals who want
0:33:58 to pull away only have to look at that
0:34:00 look at the parallel with a demon and
0:34:02 what happened there look at the
0:34:04 parallels with the blind following that
0:34:06 they are calling to yet condemning
0:34:09 others who are blind for me
0:34:12 well I'm following like usually like you
0:34:16 said people that much more worthy of
0:34:19 being followed them exactly and that's
0:34:21 not to detract I'm not going to comment
0:34:23 on the repute and marrakesh a grubby
0:34:27 easy either big swallow however we know
0:34:30 with Sophia that we do not blindly
0:34:33 adhere to any scholar anyone can be run
0:34:37 just prophet sallal Islip and we have
0:34:39 the precedence of the Imams who have
0:34:42 spoken
0:34:43 I would also say to them once they're
0:34:46 pulled away they have nothing to fear
0:34:48 from these individuals you will see a
0:34:51 regurgitated refutation condemning them
0:34:54 from the milk shake this is what he does
0:34:56 best but it has non bite to it so do not
0:35:00 be afraid of them they are not to be
0:35:02 feared in any shape or form they can go
0:35:04 to us
0:35:05 the last three scholars they have a will
0:35:07 whoever they are and get condemnation of
0:35:09 you if it's untruthful sb11 it monkey
0:35:14 why fear their word or the lies they
0:35:18 tell to scholars to condemn you this
0:35:22 this is my message in my advice and I
0:35:24 say that salafiyyah is not this Salafism
0:35:27 is not this we are salafi x' have some
0:35:31 blame I think generally because we have
0:35:34 been stagnant in our engaging and
0:35:38 embracing the wider Muslim community
0:35:40 seller fear as we said from the outset
0:35:42 is adherence to the first three
0:35:44 generations and the scholars are up on
0:35:46 that way but it's not just lip service
0:35:50 there is there is some work and efforts
0:35:53 that need to be put into that that is
0:35:56 what seller fear is we need to look and
0:35:58 we need to refer to the key bar orlimar
0:36:00 who have the wisdom the insight the
0:36:03 hikmah adhere to them and look out for
0:36:06 those individuals and this is a clear
0:36:08 thing my last one I say look out for
0:36:11 individuals who do not call to
0:36:12 themselves they call to the Dean they do
0:36:16 not call to their group to their
0:36:18 organization they call to the Dean and
0:36:21 they refer you to the key part number
0:36:24 you do that you will not fall this way
0:36:28 or that way with regards to caught ISM
0:36:30 or groups that browbeat you to adhere to
0:36:34 their objectives I'm sure that the
0:36:40 people can reference your book they can
0:36:42 go and see all the evidences it's been
0:36:44 excellent and make in your diet I mean I
0:36:48 will then likewise please discipline ah
0:36:50 thank you what welcomers while it's
0:36:52 inside