Curious Muslim Meets Atheist Scientist (2019-01-21) #

0:00:00 so what's your background what's your
0:00:02 name by the way yeah well uh william
0:00:04 williams nice to meet you man all right
0:00:06 so in this part of the world
0:00:07 what's your background what do you
0:00:10 believe i'm a biologist and i'm a
0:00:11 skeptical i like him
0:00:13 did you do biology
0:00:28 that's the
0:00:32 give me um a reason why you are
0:00:33 fascinated with life because it's very
0:00:35 difficult to explain
0:00:36 are you from scotland yourself yeah the
0:00:39 other side
0:00:40 i am from scotland yes
0:00:51 it's always interesting speaking to
0:00:52 someone with expertise
0:01:08 all right
0:01:15 so william i want to ask you a question
0:01:19 sure girlfriend what is your what's your
0:01:22 thesis of how we got here not as
0:01:25 biological entities
0:01:27 but i'm speaking about the bigger
0:01:29 picture what how do you explain it or
0:01:31 what what's your
0:01:32 understanding of it it's not it might
0:01:34 not be as satisfying a conversation as
0:01:36 you think it might be because
0:01:37 generally my answer is i don't know
0:01:40 which
0:01:40 leaves a lot of people like [ __ ] that
0:01:41 was a [ __ ] conversation
0:01:43 let me ask you a question let me let me
0:01:45 put forward
0:01:47 a series of statements and it'll be very
0:01:50 much
0:01:50 straightforward statements okay i'm not
0:01:52 going to and you tell me whether you
0:01:54 agree or disagree
0:01:56 i might not be able to do that i don't i
0:01:57 don't like yes in those situations
0:01:59 life is very complicated i don't know
0:02:00 it's nothing about life i'm speaking
0:02:02 about a bigger picture then we can go
0:02:03 zoom into life yeah just tell me whether
0:02:05 you agree or disagree
0:02:13 there is no doubt that there is
0:02:16 existence
0:02:18 something exists okay something exists
0:02:22 you agree proposition two
0:02:27 that existence is divided into
0:02:31 necessary and contingent now let me
0:02:33 explain the terms let me define them
0:02:36 a necessary existence is something
0:02:40 which exists without depending upon
0:02:44 something else
0:02:46 a contingent existence is something
0:02:49 which depends upon
0:02:50 something else to exist moreover
0:02:53 if you take it out of existence
0:02:56 an impossibility will not occur
0:03:01 do you agree with that no okay so
0:03:03 explain why you don't agree with that
0:03:04 it's a presupposition that you can't
0:03:06 prove or just
0:03:08 i believe it's possibly the easiest
0:03:10 thing to prove
0:03:11 how would you deliver all right there's
0:03:14 two options
0:03:16 there's three things possibly that could
0:03:18 exist
0:03:19 there are impossibilities which cannot
0:03:21 exist like a squared circle
0:03:24 can't exist agreed you have
0:03:27 contingent things which are things which
0:03:30 depend upon other things to exist
0:03:32 like me and you you depend upon your
0:03:35 parents i depend upon my parents to
0:03:38 exist
0:03:39 sure and there are things which
0:03:42 don't depend upon anything to exist
0:03:44 necessary existence
0:03:47 would you agree that this is a fine
0:03:49 classification
0:03:51 no we don't know from my perspective we
0:03:53 don't know the origin of the universe
0:03:54 i haven't said nothing about the
0:03:55 universe well things that exist have to
0:03:58 exist somewhere
0:03:58 no no look i've in my statement so far
0:04:01 i've made
0:04:02 zero mention of the universe i haven't
0:04:05 said nothing about the universe
0:04:07 yeah all right so far i have been
0:04:10 speaking ontologically okay which means
0:04:13 i've been speaking
0:04:14 abstractly i've not been speaking
0:04:16 cosmologically i've not been
0:04:18 making mention of uh things of the
0:04:20 universe
0:04:21 right so let me tell you why
0:04:25 it's impossible for there to be only
0:04:28 contingent existences
0:04:31 if there was only contingent existences
0:04:35 we would not necessarily exist
0:04:40 because it's impossible for there to be
0:04:43 a series
0:04:44 of dependent things that's an
0:04:48 impossibility
0:04:50 who knows let me no this is a
0:04:52 mathematical thing right like you know
0:04:53 you have mathematical sets
0:04:55 yeah a set you have if you have a series
0:04:58 of things
0:05:00 which are all dependent upon something
0:05:03 else
0:05:04 you need something outside of that
0:05:06 series which is independent
0:05:08 in order to make those things
0:05:11 uh exist existence would not be possible
0:05:15 without a necessary existence
0:05:18 maybe so no no it's not maybe this is
0:05:21 yes or no because i'll tell you why
0:05:22 for me it's not because i don't believe
0:05:24 it i i don't believe like i say it might
0:05:26 not be my
0:05:27 main alternative it might not go the way
0:05:28 you think well because i'm of the
0:05:30 position that i don't believe
0:05:32 in people knowing the truth i think
0:05:35 that reality is much more complex than
0:05:37 we can understand
0:05:38 there's such things you can explore like
0:05:41 different levels of spirituality higher
0:05:43 levels of awareness
0:05:44 altering your mind state with
0:05:45 psychotropic chemicals seeing different
0:05:47 places and realms which are talked about
0:05:49 in many different belief systems in fact
0:05:51 beings other entities other ways of
0:05:53 living these things are
0:05:55 i think far more complex than we can
0:05:57 distill into like one book
0:05:59 so that's my stance i mean we exist and
0:06:02 that's
0:06:02 that's fine for me okay no these are all
0:06:05 cosmological
0:06:06 realities yes i know i know i know where
0:06:08 you're going i'm saying it's two plus
0:06:09 two equals for me
0:06:10 two plus two two plus two equals four
0:06:13 it's not a cosmological reality it's
0:06:16 something in the mind it's an
0:06:17 abstraction
0:06:18 it's an abstraction if you like yeah
0:06:20 well i can say yes and then we can
0:06:21 continue if you like but no
0:06:22 is it not i mean can you prove them can
0:06:24 you prove otherwise can you
0:06:26 well let's let's say let's accept it and
0:06:28 let's see where you go with it well
0:06:30 i can tell you from as a matter of fact
0:06:32 okay
0:06:35 that no human being who is a philosopher
0:06:38 from aristotle who wrote a book called
0:06:40 the metaphysics
0:06:41 up until bertrand russell who died very
0:06:43 recently yeah
0:06:44 who attempted to say logic and
0:06:46 mathematics or the same thing
0:06:49 can prove that mathematics for example
0:06:52 is in the real world from a cosmological
0:06:55 perspective
0:06:56 it's an existence we agree that
0:06:58 mathematics exists
0:07:00 but it's not a cosmological one going
0:07:02 back to what i was saying in the same
0:07:03 way now
0:07:05 contingency and which is possibility
0:07:08 possible existence means if it's it's
0:07:10 possible for you to have worn another
0:07:12 jacket today
0:07:13 yes it's possible for that jacket to
0:07:16 have been another jacket
0:07:17 but you copied him yeah yes but you've
0:07:19 had to copy me
0:07:20 no problem or maybe it's the opposite
0:07:22 now here the point is i'm making is
0:07:24 all i'm saying is that we can classify
0:07:27 existing
0:07:28 things into possible existence and
0:07:30 necessary existence
0:07:32 in other words if you take this thing
0:07:34 out of existence nothing else would
0:07:36 exist that's a necessary existence
0:07:38 okay yeah all right perfect you agree
0:07:41 more or less no problem but you see that
0:07:44 you see the logic in that
0:07:45 maybe so i'm not an expert in logic no
0:07:47 problem but
0:07:48 no the actual formalized logic no i've
0:07:50 not seen logic
0:07:51 it's necessary to study it to be able to
0:07:53 talk about it effectively
0:07:55 i think to be honest with you it's
0:07:56 overrated in a sense because you have
0:07:58 different kinds of logic you have
0:07:59 predicate logic yeah propositional logic
0:08:01 even if you do um what do you call it
0:08:03 computer science you're going to do
0:08:04 logic to some extent right
0:08:06 it just requires you to put things
0:08:08 together here all i'm saying is
0:08:10 you cannot this is my statement you
0:08:13 cannot have a series
0:08:14 of dependent possible things
0:08:18 you you have to have one thing outside
0:08:21 of that series
0:08:23 that allows all of those things to exist
0:08:25 otherwise
0:08:27 what does it depend upon right why can
0:08:30 you not just say that
0:08:31 something needed to create that also
0:08:34 then then that thing that needed to
0:08:35 create it
0:08:36 is the necessary existence right can it
0:08:39 not continue
0:08:40 you know turtles all the way down what
0:08:42 into infinity
0:08:43 so infinity in terms of number or in
0:08:45 terms of quantity
0:08:47 does it matter right actual infinity or
0:08:50 what kind of potential infinity what
0:08:51 kind of infinite are we talking about
0:08:52 here
0:08:53 i don't know yeah okay so no problem if
0:08:54 you say it's infinity if the series
0:08:57 is an infinite series first and foremost
0:08:59 it's impossible to have an infinite
0:09:00 series
0:09:01 yeah the reason why is because if you
0:09:03 have an infinite series and you have
0:09:04 something
0:09:05 added to it it will contradict its
0:09:07 infinite
0:09:08 infinity right i don't know i think a
0:09:10 series
0:09:11 a series is by its nature bound
0:09:15 by what it's bound by the fact that it's
0:09:17 a series
0:09:18 so if you put something into it or if
0:09:20 you take something out of it it will
0:09:21 contradict its infinity but let's just
0:09:22 say
0:09:23 well we can keep going because yeah
0:09:24 right so there's a necessary existence
0:09:26 yeah
0:09:27 okay okay so everything depends upon
0:09:29 this and it depends upon nothing
0:09:31 you can you can tell me that okay no
0:09:33 problem now
0:09:34 if we agree that there's a necessary
0:09:36 existence which everything depends upon
0:09:38 and it depends upon nothing
0:09:41 can you have more than one necessary
0:09:42 existence
0:09:44 i don't know it's impossible to have
0:09:46 more than one necessary existence
0:09:47 because one of them will have to depend
0:09:48 upon
0:09:49 the other one so by nature there will
0:09:52 only be one necessary existence
0:09:56 correct okay all right so we talked
0:09:58 about the fact that there must be
0:09:59 logically speaking even on an
0:10:01 ontological level
0:10:02 just using abstraction there must be a
0:10:04 necessary existence which everything
0:10:06 depends upon and it depends upon nothing
0:10:08 it must be one and it also must be
0:10:10 unique
0:10:12 do you know why it must be unique
0:10:15 because
0:10:15 had it had something for example if it
0:10:17 was a composite
0:10:19 if it was a configured entity
0:10:23 of many different parts then it would
0:10:25 depend depend upon its
0:10:26 parts for its existence for example like
0:10:28 yourself right you are
0:10:30 a human being i'm a human being i have
0:10:32 many different limbs
0:10:33 yeah and parts and without those limbs
0:10:36 and parts i couldn't exist
0:10:38 so in essence i depend upon my parts to
0:10:41 exist at least physically
0:10:42 right so it must be something which is
0:10:44 doesn't have any parts
0:10:49 right it's not a competition i don't
0:10:51 even the interesting thing is i don't
0:10:52 mind
0:10:53 okay no you know what i mean all of this
0:10:54 stuff it actually doesn't it doesn't
0:10:56 affect me it doesn't affect me that much
0:10:57 no it does affect you and i'll tell you
0:10:59 why tell me why
0:11:01 because if we accept all the premises
0:11:03 that i put forward
0:11:04 then in effect what you've done
0:11:08 one more thing i'll say to you is right
0:11:11 that thing
0:11:13 if we agree with the fact that there is
0:11:15 time yes
0:11:17 there cannot be something which precedes
0:11:19 it
0:11:22 right okay because then it would in
0:11:24 effect either be contingent on that
0:11:26 thing dependent on it
0:11:28 or it would depe it would uh be caused
0:11:31 by it
0:11:32 if we believe in causation obviously
0:11:33 david whom you're scottish didn't
0:11:34 believe in he had some issues with
0:11:36 causation so i'm not even using that
0:11:37 word right now
0:11:40 okay so here i want to shake your hand
0:11:43 you said you're an agnostic
0:11:44 no i didn't a skeptic okay so what do
0:11:47 you believe do you believe in god
0:11:49 it depends what you mean by god i mean
0:11:52 the necessary existence one
0:11:53 independent well right you're trying to
0:11:56 put me into a position where i have to
0:11:57 say yes
0:11:58 well no i don't need to pay you to
0:11:59 anything i've just done i've just i've
0:12:01 just done discursive short explication
0:12:03 ever so yeah it's your explanation that
0:12:07 i would like
0:12:07 um yeah so what is god to you god is all
0:12:10 those things we talked about because in
0:12:12 the quran it says
0:12:13 say he is god one and only okay so it's
0:12:16 allah the one that everything depends
0:12:18 upon and he depends upon nothing right
0:12:20 la miele is well emulated he doesn't
0:12:21 have any children nor was he a child of
0:12:23 anything
0:12:23 which shows that there was nothing that
0:12:24 preceded him
0:12:27 completely unique right so the things
0:12:29 that we said are necessary for a god to
0:12:31 be a god
0:12:32 are in the things that we've
0:12:33 rationalized are in fact in place
0:12:36 okay so therefore does this make sense
0:12:38 to you rationally no i know where you're
0:12:40 going
0:12:40 sure right so it can't be for example a
0:12:42 plethora of gods
0:12:45 because there'll be there'll be no no
0:12:47 definitely not i mean
0:12:48 i i don't necessarily agree with the
0:12:49 star so oh we did agree with this
0:12:51 thought
0:12:52 we have to be honest here no we don't we
0:12:54 don't have to be honest
0:12:56 sorry sir no no no we do it's good to be
0:12:58 honest but
0:12:59 it's hard to be honest when you don't
0:13:01 know all the troops of the universe
0:13:02 which none of us do
0:13:03 we're not talking about the universe
0:13:04 well i am do you know why we're not
0:13:06 talking about the universe when i say
0:13:07 that i mean existence existence that we
0:13:09 can comprehend which is what we've been
0:13:10 doing and discussion of logic
0:13:12 let me explain to you something right
0:13:14 this is an ontological argument
0:13:17 an ontological argument means just like
0:13:19 mathematics right
0:13:20 it's something which resides in the
0:13:22 mental
0:13:23 abstracted realm we can easily transfer
0:13:26 it to the cosmological realm easily
0:13:29 right
0:13:30 and it can be applicable in the
0:13:31 cosmological realm but it can exist
0:13:34 without a cosmological inference
0:13:36 sure an idea yes an idea just like
0:13:39 mathematics but a real one just like
0:13:41 mathematics
0:13:42 yeah so having abstract mathematics yeah
0:13:45 abstract mathematics is real is it not
0:13:49 i'm not an expert but i've heard some
0:13:51 interesting things about that right no
0:13:52 no one will tell you that i mean you're
0:13:53 not going to tell me that maths is not
0:13:55 real
0:13:56 no that's not what i'm saying same thing
0:13:57 is because let me tell you something
0:13:58 right scientif the scientific method
0:14:00 you're biologists what is it based upon
0:14:05 you know it's based on the philosophy of
0:14:07 science
0:14:08 and the philosophy of science are
0:14:09 metaphysical non-tangible
0:14:12 principles of logic and so they are
0:14:15 abstractions
0:14:18 cool so the whole of science is based on
0:14:20 abstractions
0:14:21 if it wasn't if abstractions were any
0:14:23 less than cosm cosmology
0:14:25 then surely they should be underpinned
0:14:26 by it right well the opposite is true
0:14:28 okay let's keep going so no i'm just
0:14:30 telling you the epistemic way
0:14:32 of ontological reasoning can sometimes
0:14:35 supersede that of cosmological reasoning
0:14:38 you're scottish obviously david hume
0:14:40 believed in the problem of induction
0:14:42 he talked about the swans and all these
0:14:44 things right i've never read you
0:14:46 you should man he's one of your main
0:14:47 guys
0:14:49 yes but he's actually the probably the
0:14:51 greatest scottish philosopher of all
0:14:53 time
0:14:53 yes and maybe i'm making any
0:14:56 whatever but what i'm saying is that
0:14:59 there are problems with
0:15:00 science has inductive problems right or
0:15:02 limitations i should say yeah
0:15:04 the inductive problem so
0:15:07 having said that if we agree that there
0:15:10 is an entity which is necessary which
0:15:12 everything exists
0:15:13 which everything depends upon which if
0:15:14 you take it out of creation nothing
0:15:16 would exist
0:15:16 an impossibility would occur that is one
0:15:20 and that nothing came before if you do
0:15:22 believe in time
0:15:25 then what we should say there for is
0:15:27 that you're no longer
0:15:30 that much of a skeptic are you because
0:15:32 you've actually taken on board the
0:15:34 religious notion
0:15:35 well really it really depends because
0:15:38 we've yet we've yet to get into the
0:15:40 specifics all right so in the quran
0:15:43 in the quran right these are the four
0:15:45 parameters in that
0:15:46 chapter right that he is god one and
0:15:49 only
0:15:50 the eternally besought of all meaning
0:15:51 the independent
0:15:53 he has he has no children nor is he
0:15:56 given the children
0:15:57 and there's nothing like him is unique
0:15:59 now having said this
0:16:00 these are four parameters
0:16:04 that excludes trinitarianism because we
0:16:07 have the father as god the son of god
0:16:08 the holy spirit is god excludes it
0:16:10 completely
0:16:11 because we said there cannot be more
0:16:12 than one necessary existence
0:16:14 so if we exclude trinitarianism and
0:16:16 polytheism by extension
0:16:18 we've gotten rid of two major religions
0:16:19 in the world which is hinduism
0:16:22 or one understanding of hinduism one
0:16:24 understanding of it and
0:16:26 christianity right so we we ask the
0:16:29 question now
0:16:31 if this is more reasonable in an
0:16:33 inference than the atheistic one
0:16:37 what does this unnecessary existence
0:16:41 want from us biological entities in the
0:16:44 world is there a connection between
0:16:45 questions that's a very good question is
0:16:47 there a connection between us
0:16:49 and this necessary existence why would
0:16:51 there be
0:16:52 well we know for a fact we know from
0:16:54 reasonable discursive reasoning
0:16:56 that there must be at least one kind of
0:16:59 relationship the fact that he gave us
0:17:02 existence
0:17:03 or it gave us existence yeah if it gave
0:17:06 us existence
0:17:08 if it gave us existence then there was a
0:17:10 relationship of
0:17:12 giving existence that's one thing yes
0:17:17 so that's definitely there could it be a
0:17:20 natural force that gave existence
0:17:22 by being a natural force it's impossible
0:17:24 for it to be a consciousness
0:17:25 to this entity and purpose when we don't
0:17:28 i don't see a
0:17:29 logical reason that it would have a
0:17:31 purpose to doing it it could be a
0:17:32 natural force
0:17:33 the natural forces really can observe
0:17:35 maybe it's mirrored
0:17:37 it can't be it cannot be material and
0:17:39 i'll tell you why it cannot be natural
0:17:41 it must be immaterial well it's made of
0:17:44 something you know no no it can't be in
0:17:46 fact that's one thing
0:17:47 logically it cannot be a material entity
0:17:49 i'll tell you why
0:17:51 everything which is a material entity is
0:17:53 a composite configuration
0:17:55 and as we discussed a composite
0:17:56 configuration is dependent upon its
0:17:58 constituent parts
0:18:00 if something is dependent upon its
0:18:02 constituent parts to exist
0:18:03 it must be dependent and if it's
0:18:05 dependent it can't be necessary
0:18:07 right no i understand what you're saying
0:18:08 right perfect i just like deeper
0:18:10 therefore it cannot be material i didn't
0:18:12 necessarily say material
0:18:14 well natural natural force what do we
0:18:16 mean by natural well
0:18:17 like well both of us here are not
0:18:19 experts in the cutting edge of
0:18:21 like particle physics right so we don't
0:18:23 know all that there is
0:18:25 we're discovering more things every day
0:18:27 physics is apart from this um
0:18:28 this this discussion here conveniently
0:18:30 oh it can be if you want it to be well
0:18:31 why not
0:18:32 well we can bring it in but what i'm
0:18:33 saying is we can have this discussion
0:18:35 without having a cosmological inference
0:18:36 that's how
0:18:37 that's how deep it is this is almost as
0:18:39 if it's a mathematical discussion
0:18:40 why not why not be all-inclusive we can
0:18:43 if you want it i would prefer it makes
0:18:45 more sense so but
0:18:46 we have already from first principles
0:18:47 agreed that that it makes sense
0:18:50 from this ontological on this
0:18:52 ontological level i haven't agreed
0:18:54 the universe could have always existed
0:18:56 i've said nothing about the universe
0:18:57 always existing
0:18:58 come on you need something let's go with
0:19:00 that we've talked about ontology
0:19:02 existence could have always existed no
0:19:03 problem doesn't need to have a star
0:19:04 do you believe that the universe always
0:19:06 existed i have no idea
0:19:08 i have absolutely no idea look no idea
0:19:10 you're a clever man right
0:19:12 who knows you are you've completed a
0:19:14 degree in biology and you're a clever
0:19:15 man
0:19:16 we've made an ontological argument it's
0:19:18 been done now we know there must be a
0:19:20 necessary existence
0:19:21 if you say the universe always existed
0:19:23 yeah which we don't agree with right
0:19:25 we because we let's say for instance the
0:19:28 theistic position or
0:19:29 for to be more specific muslims we
0:19:31 believe that the universe had an
0:19:32 explicit
0:19:32 beginning and that god created the
0:19:34 universe ex nilo which means from
0:19:36 nothing yeah right
0:19:37 however
0:19:40 let's go with the fact that for the sake
0:19:41 of argument no problem i mean uh today i
0:19:43 want to you know
0:19:44 what i'm trying to say i want to give it
0:19:45 to you let's go with it the universe
0:19:48 always exists much bigger problems
0:19:50 has time always existed who knows who
0:19:52 knows
0:19:53 if the universe always existed and my
0:19:54 question to you is has it existed with
0:19:56 time or not no time
0:19:59 is there time now i don't want to be
0:20:01 what's the right word
0:20:02 picking on semantics but what do we mean
0:20:04 by time
0:20:06 time refers to uh to tenses in action so
0:20:09 we refer to past present and future we
0:20:12 refer to a
0:20:13 unit of measurement yes which which
0:20:17 measures this transition from past to
0:20:19 present present to future and so on
0:20:21 that's what we mean by time yeah so do
0:20:22 you believe in this i don't think i can
0:20:24 say i believe in it do you believe time
0:20:26 exists
0:20:26 i don't like the word belief do you
0:20:28 accept time exists
0:20:30 uh i live my life that it does in the
0:20:32 view that it does all right so
0:20:34 i can't say definitely epistemically you
0:20:36 accept
0:20:37 the value of time well you could live
0:20:40 without
0:20:41 a concept of time i suppose just be more
0:20:43 difficult is there time
0:20:44 i don't know me that's the thing i don't
0:20:46 know i'm an honest man william
0:20:48 please i mean you exist that's a deeper
0:20:51 one william
0:20:52 yeah that's fine so if you don't know
0:20:53 much about cosmology which is your
0:20:55 position
0:20:56 it's better to go back to ontology
0:20:57 because then we'll get more certain
0:20:58 truth
0:20:59 i don't think we can get certain truth
0:21:00 that's my that's my stance man is that
0:21:02 yours
0:21:03 is that i think well yeah we should go
0:21:04 into the we should go into the depth of
0:21:06 it like
0:21:06 a theistic position is is quite an
0:21:08 interesting one rather than a god that
0:21:10 maybe just created
0:21:11 if i say i exist no forget about i
0:21:14 existence
0:21:16 there is existence is that a undeniable
0:21:19 statement or not
0:21:20 well we could say that it is yes okay so
0:21:24 there are some things so that is an
0:21:25 undeniable position
0:21:27 something something exists something
0:21:29 exists
0:21:30 yeah fine there is no doubt that there
0:21:32 is existence
0:21:34 something exists so the reason why i've
0:21:37 taken you out of cosmological
0:21:39 uh discussion is because i know you're
0:21:41 always going to say i don't know
0:21:42 well that's that's the honest position
0:21:44 no problem so in that case let's go away
0:21:46 from doubt into certainty
0:21:47 because no seriously because if you're
0:21:49 but this is i'll be honest with you
0:21:51 right the quran says
0:21:52 if it's so obvious then why doesn't
0:21:54 everyone believe it well because they've
0:21:55 been socialized otherwise let me tell
0:21:57 you something right
0:21:58 the quran says
0:22:04 i'll tell you the answer i'll tell you
0:22:05 what the translation right it says
0:22:07 did they create themselves or whether
0:22:09 themselves are created
0:22:10 were they created from nothing or were
0:22:12 they themselves the creators of
0:22:13 themselves
0:22:14 did they create the universe they have
0:22:16 no certainty so in other words
0:22:18 the chronic position is that an atheist
0:22:21 or an
0:22:21 even agnost by definition will never
0:22:24 attain
0:22:25 certainty that's that is a position
0:22:27 right it's not a problem
0:22:29 it's a big problem because i'll tell you
0:22:31 why it's a problem
0:22:33 from your perspective it's less of a
0:22:35 problem because you're kind of like
0:22:36 agnostic right
0:22:37 well i've been saying i don't know but
0:22:39 for an atheist who
0:22:41 who makes a definite claim that there is
0:22:42 no god it's a problem to make a positive
0:22:45 definite claim
0:22:46 but actually when it comes to the
0:22:47 nitty-gritty have very little certainty
0:22:50 do you see the point here no i already
0:22:53 know that yeah yeah
0:22:54 yeah so you're good for me so you agree
0:22:55 with me and you guru the quran all right
0:22:56 so that's that's
0:22:57 saying that you're sure there's no god
0:22:59 is a difficult position just like saying
0:23:00 you're sure there is one it's a
0:23:01 difference i don't think it's a
0:23:02 difficult position
0:23:03 because me and you just went through the
0:23:04 process if we mean god by
0:23:06 some force outside of physical creation
0:23:10 but who knows what that is i haven't
0:23:13 said
0:23:14 i haven't said any true i have not said
0:23:16 anything about force i've not used that
0:23:18 word
0:23:18 i've not said anything about that book
0:23:20 these are your words sure that's an
0:23:21 easier argument
0:23:22 i'll be honest with you william it's an
0:23:23 easier argument to refute
0:23:25 but let me just summarize what i said to
0:23:27 you before okay and just i'm putting it
0:23:29 in propositional
0:23:30 term statement form yeah i'll ask you
0:23:32 some questions no problem
0:23:33 statement one i said there is no doubt
0:23:36 there is existence statement one
0:23:38 statement two existence is divided into
0:23:40 necessary
0:23:41 and possible necessary means that this
0:23:45 existence depends upon nothing
0:23:48 in order for it to exist
0:23:51 possible means it depends upon something
0:23:54 else for its existence and it could have
0:23:55 otherwise not existed
0:23:57 necessary means if you take it out of
0:23:59 existence impossibilities will occur
0:24:02 possible means if you take her out of
0:24:04 existence impossibilities will not occur
0:24:06 in other words if i take you out of
0:24:07 existence or you take me out of
0:24:09 existence
0:24:10 no impossibility no logical
0:24:12 impossibility will occur
0:24:13 therefore we said if there's a series of
0:24:15 things which are only possible
0:24:16 existences
0:24:17 we will need something outside of that
0:24:19 series which is a necessary existence in
0:24:21 order for existence to exist
0:24:22 therefore necessary existence is by
0:24:24 definition necessary
0:24:26 therefore there must be something which
0:24:27 everything depends upon and it depends
0:24:29 upon nothing
0:24:30 also that thing has to be one because if
0:24:32 there were two necessary existences
0:24:34 there would be two things which
0:24:36 necessarily claim
0:24:38 to have nothing it depends upon one of
0:24:39 them would have to depend upon the other
0:24:41 and in addition to that it will have to
0:24:43 be unique if that's the case then
0:24:45 actually what we're saying is that
0:24:46 there's one necessary existence
0:24:48 which everything depends upon and it
0:24:49 depends upon nothing and
0:24:51 existence would not be justified without
0:24:54 that necessary existence an
0:24:55 impossibility
0:24:56 would occur without that existence
0:24:58 therefore no
0:25:00 no therefore therefore therefore there
0:25:02 is
0:25:03 as the quran says
0:25:06 the one allah
0:25:10 eternally be sort of all the independent
0:25:12 the thing that everything depends upon
0:25:13 and he depends
0:25:14 upon nothing lemiel is well immutable he
0:25:16 does not have
0:25:17 he's not a child of anyone nor is he
0:25:19 yeah does he give a shock
0:25:21 and there's nothing like him at all it's
0:25:23 unique
0:25:24 the thing the parameters that the
0:25:25 quranic discourse
0:25:27 puts forward are not only immediately
0:25:30 realized could be argued
0:25:32 from an intuitive perspective but also
0:25:34 right
0:25:35 logically attained through discursive
0:25:38 explication of ontological
0:25:42 epistle uh ontological argumentation
0:25:44 like i've just done right here we don't
0:25:45 even need to go into cosmology let's
0:25:47 talk about something so let's say uh
0:25:49 consciousness right yes we have no idea
0:25:51 what consciousness is
0:25:52 that's nothing to do with the argument
0:25:53 right yes consciousness is very
0:25:55 interesting it's very interesting i'm
0:25:56 gonna keep talking because i think it's
0:25:57 interesting
0:25:58 okay go ahead let's say let's say this
0:26:00 consciousness that we
0:26:01 apparently view the world through right
0:26:03 we don't know where it comes from we
0:26:05 haven't discovered that in science maybe
0:26:06 we won't
0:26:07 who's to say that that force right there
0:26:09 is not god itself
0:26:10 yeah okay so we we say that that god is
0:26:13 we say
0:26:13 that the things because god is a
0:26:16 semantic term that comes from the german
0:26:18 word good
0:26:18 it's a it's it's it has connotations
0:26:21 especially for an atheist it doesn't
0:26:22 like the word
0:26:23 look don't talk to me about god right
0:26:25 that's why i'm saying let's just say the
0:26:27 thing
0:26:27 that we've just discussed here or maybe
0:26:29 with the parameters experiencing itself
0:26:31 we're saying that you have two things
0:26:33 here number one you have this reality
0:26:35 which is that which is the ontological
0:26:36 basis for god's existence
0:26:38 then you can say something else if you
0:26:40 believe in causation
0:26:42 you can make the ghazali argument which
0:26:44 is that everything that begins to exist
0:26:45 has a cause
0:26:46 the universe began to exist therefore
0:26:47 the universe has a cause if of course
0:26:49 you don't believe the universe began to
0:26:50 exist
0:26:52 then you don't need to say that this
0:26:54 this argument doesn't apply to you but
0:26:55 we don't need the argument
0:26:56 okay yeah okay can we it's a nice
0:26:59 spiel right um so
0:27:03 let's let's take it further um so let's
0:27:05 say all these things are right
0:27:06 yes um where do we go from there we go
0:27:09 from there we ask okay
0:27:11 we'll ask the question why not because
0:27:12 what does the necessary existence
0:27:14 what does this summat if you like the
0:27:16 thing that everything depends upon
0:27:18 and it depends upon nothing what does it
0:27:20 want from us
0:27:21 that's an interesting question right why
0:27:23 would it have once
0:27:25 okay why did it put us into existence
0:27:27 that's the question
0:27:28 ah and this is a logical question i've
0:27:31 heard the answer and i find it
0:27:32 exceptionally dissatisfying
0:27:34 okay tell me why what is the answer to
0:27:36 worship it okay tell me why is that this
0:27:38 is
0:27:38 what is worship that's my question right
0:27:40 what is worship that's a great thing
0:27:42 let me answer the question worship
0:27:45 is submission of will ah submission yes
0:27:48 interesting yeah it literally means
0:27:52 that you voluntarily submit your will
0:27:55 to the necessary existence it's really
0:27:57 what worship is let me tell you what
0:27:58 worship is
0:27:59 asking for our life and energy no no let
0:28:02 me tell you
0:28:03 exactly what worship is all right
0:28:05 worshiping is realizing who you are
0:28:07 that's what it is that's interesting
0:28:09 yeah yeah it's all it is
0:28:11 to worship god is to realize that you're
0:28:13 you're a dependent
0:28:14 ah so we don't have any real power
0:28:17 absolutely
0:28:18 that ev all of your power is seated to
0:28:20 you
0:28:21 from the necessary existence your
0:28:22 existence is is as a result