Londoniyyah - Part 16 - Marxism/1 | Mohammed Hijab (2022-02-09) ​

0:00:00 oh
0:00:11 yeah
0:00:12 and welcome to another episode where
0:00:14 today we're going to be discussing
0:00:15 Marxism uh thusly called after its
0:00:20 founder Karl Marx and today inshallah
0:00:23 we're going to be because Marxism is a
0:00:25 huge thing it's uh it's had a massive
0:00:27 impact on the 20th century in particular
0:00:29 19th and 20th Century in politics and
0:00:33 geopolitics and history and so we've
0:00:35 decided to make two this to a two-part
0:00:37 series or a two-part um to like uh
0:00:40 session
0:00:41 the first bit we're going to be just
0:00:43 focusing on three different aspects of
0:00:45 Marxism we're going to be discussing
0:00:48 briefly what is referred to as
0:00:50 historical materialism
0:00:52 and we're going to be discussing class
0:00:54 struggle what Marx understood by it and
0:00:58 finally we're going to be discussing
0:01:00 um
0:01:01 Surplus value which is an important
0:01:03 economic understanding that Marx had or
0:01:05 a proposition that he had you could say
0:01:07 after that we're going to be discussing
0:01:09 very briefly as well some criticisms of
0:01:11 Marxism
0:01:12 and a general understanding of what
0:01:15 Islam would say in opposition to Marx
0:01:18 this is the brief outline today there's
0:01:21 things are conspicuously missing from
0:01:23 that list which are very important uh in
0:01:26 the kind of history of Marx not only
0:01:28 Theory but practice and implementation
0:01:30 uh theory of alienation for example
0:01:33 being a very key one we're not going to
0:01:36 delve into any considerable details like
0:01:40 the works of Engel who also obviously
0:01:42 helped Karl Marx or Hague alien
0:01:44 dialectical Theory which very important
0:01:48 to Market to understanding Marx these
0:01:50 kinds of things may be discussed in the
0:01:52 second session we'll see if we have a
0:01:54 place for it but in this particular
0:01:57 session we're going to be looking at
0:01:58 these three things of the theory so
0:02:00 we'll start off with Karl Marx himself a
0:02:02 man who is one of the greatest Geniuses
0:02:05 that you know the West has produced
0:02:07 uh in terms of his backgrounds he he
0:02:10 doesn't have philosophy I believe a
0:02:13 doctorate
0:02:14 but he was also an economist
0:02:16 and um he died here in London I think
0:02:20 he's buried in North London somewhere
0:02:22 and there's a big picture of a statue of
0:02:24 his head he can I don't know which
0:02:26 cemetery is somewhere in North London
0:02:28 where
0:02:29 it's a high gate right and you can see
0:02:31 like a big kind of a statue of his head
0:02:33 and stuff like that but because he spent
0:02:36 the last part of his life
0:02:38 here in London and so um
0:02:41 Karl Marx we can see here in the first
0:02:43 slide he was a philosopher social
0:02:46 scientist and a historian you can put
0:02:47 into that list as well an economic
0:02:48 Economist because he clearly understood
0:02:51 economics or at least it can be argued
0:02:55 that he understood it he definitely
0:02:57 understood economics but his theories of
0:02:59 it are heavily you know controversial
0:03:03 and some of his books include well these
0:03:07 are just two that I've put out the
0:03:09 Communist manifest in the class
0:03:10 struggles in France
0:03:11 there are obviously other ones like the
0:03:13 German ideology I mean he's written lots
0:03:15 of books as I've mentioned before with
0:03:16 Engels
0:03:17 and um some of these books are bigger
0:03:20 than others some of them are accessible
0:03:21 some of them are not accessible but it's
0:03:23 worth looking at what the man has to say
0:03:25 himself because a lot of how we access
0:03:27 marks nowadays is through the prism of
0:03:30 neoliberal kind of Western
0:03:34 understandings of Marx or some criticism
0:03:36 of him but we have to try and make an
0:03:38 effort like every other ideology that
0:03:40 we've actually covered here to
0:03:42 understand what he is trying to say in
0:03:44 the first place because you'll find that
0:03:45 his criticism of capitalism in
0:03:48 particular was particularly scathing
0:03:51 yeah he did have
0:03:53 insights which uh which
0:03:57 had an impact in his time and Beyond
0:04:01 so
0:04:02 he died in London's invention so
0:04:04 historical materialism the first thing
0:04:06 is really what the theory is based on
0:04:09 now historical materialism is juxtaposed
0:04:12 if you like contrasted with
0:04:14 that which is referred to as idealism
0:04:16 and the basic idea is that there are
0:04:20 material forces
0:04:22 that are interacting with each other in
0:04:24 an economy for example
0:04:26 and remember when we've done materialism
0:04:28 in epistemology
0:04:30 it's the name is this kind of same thing
0:04:33 we're talking about naturalism and
0:04:34 materialism materialism they don't
0:04:36 believe in any or materialists don't
0:04:38 believe in the Supernatural forces Etc
0:04:41 so someone who's in a you know a
0:04:43 historical materials like Marx would say
0:04:45 that we don't use abstract ideas for
0:04:47 example
0:04:48 or Supernatural ideas or whatever it may
0:04:51 be in order to explain the functioning
0:04:53 of society this is what understood as
0:04:55 historical materialism okay so how do we
0:04:58 understand
0:04:59 the base and the superstructure we
0:05:01 understand it materially things are
0:05:04 happening movement uh material and in
0:05:06 fact part of what he says and this is uh
0:05:09 interesting because it's quite
0:05:10 Aristotelian in many ways
0:05:13 he says that there's always change
0:05:15 any the only thing that is constant is
0:05:18 change itself in fact and this the
0:05:21 change that's happening is uh material
0:05:24 change in an economy
0:05:26 and this is how we understand everything
0:05:30 obviously now just based on just on a
0:05:32 side note it's important to note that
0:05:34 there's
0:05:35 contentions about okay if it's
0:05:37 materialistic things which bring about
0:05:39 things which are
0:05:40 kind of the superstructure what
0:05:43 influences what is their symbiotic
0:05:44 relationship is it asymmetrical is it
0:05:46 symmetrical and there's whole
0:05:47 discussions about this but the point is
0:05:48 in a nutshell
0:05:50 he says Supernatural forces ideas and
0:05:54 Abstract things do not influence how
0:05:57 things go in the society everything is
0:05:59 down to its material basics
0:06:03 and another thing which is very very
0:06:05 important in Marx is labor the human
0:06:09 labor
0:06:11 okay and this is really what comes out
0:06:13 in the political discourse labor rights
0:06:15 Trade union rights really a lot of it
0:06:17 comes back to Marx
0:06:19 a lot of it comes back to labor rights
0:06:21 come back to Marx right the idea of
0:06:23 exploitation which another thing is not
0:06:24 having put like a whole um slide for it
0:06:27 but the idea or Marx's idea of
0:06:30 exploitation
0:06:31 is huge
0:06:33 but labor is something which is tangible
0:06:36 it's material and it's objective for
0:06:37 Marx it's not something which is
0:06:40 um is abstract or something like this
0:06:43 and so we'll come to this point and how
0:06:45 Mark sees labor is very um
0:06:49 Central to his theory
0:06:51 and he also has this kind of um he has
0:06:54 predictions many of one of the
0:06:57 criticisms as we're going to see of Marx
0:06:59 is the fact that sometimes his
0:07:00 predictions don't turn out to be correct
0:07:01 at all but the idea that he sees uh kind
0:07:06 of History moving from a feudal system
0:07:08 to a capitalist system
0:07:10 to a communist system
0:07:13 and
0:07:15 so so for example how does it move from
0:07:17 capitalism to Communism through
0:07:18 Revolution because as we're going to
0:07:21 come to there's so much oppression based
0:07:24 on the exploitation that it's
0:07:26 unsustainable and untenable he says that
0:07:28 workers will live on these conditions
0:07:30 for a very long time so there has to be
0:07:32 some kind of Revolution violent
0:07:34 revolution sometimes or maybe not
0:07:36 violent but at least a
0:07:39 active Revolution a real Revolution
0:07:42 which will bring about the change
0:07:44 and this segues us to this very
0:07:47 important you can call it pillar of his
0:07:49 theory
0:07:50 the the the pillar of class struggle
0:07:53 Okay so
0:07:55 Karl Marx divides
0:07:57 uh kind of human society into two kind
0:08:00 of distinct classes you have what was
0:08:03 referred to as the bourgeoisie and what
0:08:06 is referred to as the proletarian
0:08:08 okay the bourgeoisie are the owners of
0:08:12 production
0:08:14 yeah they're the ones who have the money
0:08:16 the other rich ones let's say they're
0:08:18 the owners of the factory the these are
0:08:21 the bourgeoisie
0:08:22 and the proletariat other workers the
0:08:24 blue collar the working class
0:08:28 and why he fundamentally sees is going
0:08:31 on between the bourgeoisie and the
0:08:33 proletariat is that the bourgeoisie or
0:08:35 the um
0:08:37 the rich if you like the owners
0:08:39 they are involved in a Perpetual
0:08:42 exploitation of the proletario
0:08:45 how are they doing that well because
0:08:49 we're going to come to this in more
0:08:51 detail in the next slide because of
0:08:53 something called Surplus value because
0:08:55 of something because they're working for
0:08:57 them and not giving them the share that
0:08:58 they deserve
0:09:01 um and so there is this tension between
0:09:03 the bourgeoisie and the proletaria
0:09:07 now if you read his books the question
0:09:09 of what's going what's going to happen
0:09:12 is it going to be an ongoing Revolution
0:09:14 between the bourgeoisie and the
0:09:16 proletariat or is there going to
0:09:17 eventually be
0:09:20 and then somewhere is it going to end in
0:09:22 some kind of catastrophe or some kind of
0:09:23 cataclysmic Armageddon type
0:09:26 you know catastrophe
0:09:27 and it's ambiguous in the works of Marx
0:09:29 and to be honest some have even said
0:09:31 it's contradictory because there are two
0:09:33 propositions which are independent from
0:09:35 one another but that's subject to your
0:09:37 reading of Karl Marx you know this you
0:09:39 can look at his works and kind of make
0:09:41 your own mind up about that
0:09:43 but I want to spend a little bit of time
0:09:46 on Surplus value
0:09:48 Surplus value is simply the idea
0:09:52 okay in fact let's read this what what
0:09:54 Marx says about Surplus value he says
0:09:57 Surplus value is produced by the
0:09:59 employment of Labor power Capital buys
0:10:02 as the labor power and pays the wages
0:10:04 for it by means of his work the labor
0:10:07 the laborer creates new value which does
0:10:10 not belong to him but to the capital
0:10:12 sorry but to the capitalist he must work
0:10:15 a certain time merely in order to
0:10:17 reproduce the equivalent value of his
0:10:18 wages but when this equivalent value has
0:10:21 been returned he does not cease work but
0:10:24 continues to do so for some further
0:10:26 hours
0:10:27 the new value which he produces during
0:10:29 this extra time and which exceeds in
0:10:31 consequence in Consequence the amount of
0:10:34 his wage constitutes Surplus value let
0:10:37 me just give you an example of what Marx
0:10:39 is saying okay Mark let's I suppose we
0:10:42 start up a factory yeah we start up you
0:10:45 know a factory or some kind of outfit
0:10:46 that we have
0:10:48 and we and we go and get Buzz of uh gold
0:10:52 we go and buy some we'll get some bars
0:10:54 of gold yeah
0:10:55 now we go and get some bars of gold and
0:10:58 we get some guys who expert
0:11:02 at making watches I don't know what's
0:11:03 the name watchmakers is that what
0:11:06 they're called is there any other
0:11:07 technical term for them I don't know the
0:11:09 experts aren't making watches yeah so we
0:11:10 get these gold bars and we whatever
0:11:12 other materials I've cried for watches
0:11:14 yeah
0:11:15 and and
0:11:16 we call our
0:11:18 outfit we call it Rolex
0:11:21 I mean that's what they did isn't it
0:11:22 they got the gold they got you know the
0:11:24 materials and whatever
0:11:27 now
0:11:29 we give the workers the gold bars they
0:11:32 do whatever they need to I don't know
0:11:33 how Rolex is made but I'm sure it
0:11:36 involves some kind of you know process
0:11:38 and you know extraction and putting
0:11:41 things together I've seen I've seen how
0:11:42 it's stuff I made online you know
0:11:44 nowadays people are watching this kind
0:11:45 of thing as an entertainment I just has
0:11:48 a side note I saw my three-year-olds
0:11:50 with an iPad in her hand they're just
0:11:52 watching some some thing being created
0:11:54 and she was like astonished by it it's
0:11:56 just you know people are really like
0:11:58 what do they call it adsmr or something
0:12:00 I don't know
0:12:01 well is this something else I don't know
0:12:04 how is it I don't know anyway uh they
0:12:08 see these things being created and
0:12:10 noises and this kind of thing people
0:12:11 eating food anyway imagine
0:12:13 huh
0:12:18 how is that I have no idea what's going
0:12:20 on in the liquor in the kids world you
0:12:22 can tell us really yeah
0:12:27 oh is it did you watch this kind of
0:12:29 things
0:12:34 yeah
0:12:36 yeah
0:12:37 anyway sometimes they get like a big
0:12:40 piece of material and then they make it
0:12:41 into something and make like a sword or
0:12:42 something and have you seen this it's
0:12:44 got like hundreds of millions of views
0:12:46 or something you know but that's what I
0:12:48 mean you know Rolex have done okay
0:12:49 they've made their watches
0:12:51 now they're workers that work there
0:12:54 obviously working they're carving it all
0:12:56 up and they're doing the thing
0:12:57 the bar
0:13:00 that they got
0:13:01 was that the owner got compared to the
0:13:04 Rolex watch which
0:13:06 Has Come From the Bottle maybe they made
0:13:08 three or four Rolex watches from the bar
0:13:12 which of them is more valuable
0:13:15 like the bar let's say for example I
0:13:16 don't know one kilogram gold bar of uh
0:13:20 and uh and other materials are required
0:13:22 for Rolex watch versus so the raw
0:13:24 material of a Rolex watch versus the
0:13:26 Rolex watch which is more valuable
0:13:29 the Rolex watch not your one because
0:13:30 it's fake of course but it's so funny
0:13:34 but you see the point it's obviously the
0:13:36 Rolex watch right now there's that
0:13:38 differential between the the product
0:13:42 and the Rolex watch what is that
0:13:44 differential
0:13:46 the labor right now you've got the labor
0:13:49 here so if you you got the commodity
0:13:52 plus the labor
0:13:54 equals the product
0:13:57 but what he's saying is
0:13:59 if even if you do all of that the work
0:14:01 is going to be given let's say this
0:14:03 worker call him Bob or something yeah
0:14:07 how much let's say I guess what 15
0:14:09 pounds an hour 20 pounds let's maybe
0:14:11 these guys get more because they're
0:14:12 Rolex maybe 30 pounds an hour 50 pounds
0:14:14 no problem yeah
0:14:15 makes 50 pounds an hour whatever he
0:14:18 makes or she makes yeah at the end of
0:14:21 the day it's going to be less
0:14:23 per hour
0:14:25 than would be the case when Rolex sell
0:14:28 their watches and get a profit otherwise
0:14:30 they wouldn't be a profit right
0:14:32 and he's saying that the differential
0:14:34 there between
0:14:35 the the price of the commodity plus plus
0:14:37 the labor
0:14:39 is the Surplus value and he's saying
0:14:42 that's the that's where exploitation
0:14:44 happens because that's where he they
0:14:47 should have gotten their money now I
0:14:49 want you to think with the person next
0:14:50 to you for the next three to four
0:14:51 minutes what you think the merits and
0:14:53 demerits of this are
0:14:57 go ahead
0:15:00 okay the strengths and weaknesses
0:15:04 so what do you think of surplus value
0:15:06 what what would seem to be the strength
0:15:08 of this um
0:15:09 Theory
0:15:17 I mean put yourself now in the shoes of
0:15:19 someone
0:15:20 who agrees with Surplus value or
0:15:24 even if you don't agree with it what do
0:15:25 you think the strength of this is
0:15:28 um
0:15:29 having this this clearing between too
0:15:32 rich and too poor
0:15:34 we're not there yet yeah you're talking
0:15:37 about communism yeah
0:15:39 I'm talking about Surplus value I'm
0:15:41 talking about go back to our example of
0:15:42 the gold bars setting it to
0:15:44 to watches and the labor cost so the
0:15:47 gold bar plus the labor cost
0:15:49 still there's a gap between how much
0:15:52 this
0:15:53 the the producer or the owner is getting
0:15:56 in profits and how much the laborer
0:16:02 is getting
0:16:04 in return for his services or her
0:16:06 services
0:16:07 and that that gap between the labor
0:16:10 costs and the profit is the Surplus
0:16:13 value
0:16:14 what seems to be attractive about this
0:16:17 Theory
0:16:18 surface value is uh kind of good and
0:16:21 someone could argue is necessary right
0:16:23 because
0:16:25 [Music]
0:16:25 um
0:16:26 like the only reason the factory was you
0:16:28 know they're in the first place is
0:16:29 because of the factory workers
0:16:31 um and then you know if they do gain
0:16:33 enough surface value and a profit right
0:16:35 then it means that they can you know
0:16:37 open up more factories for more workers
0:16:39 or they can you know reinvest this
0:16:41 Surplus you're right but that's that's a
0:16:43 capitalist thought right uh Marx
0:16:46 wouldn't say anything like this he would
0:16:47 say in fact that's Perpetual
0:16:49 exploitation
0:16:51 I remember what he's saying is you have
0:16:53 these owners
0:16:54 and you have these workers you have the
0:16:56 bourgeoisie and you have the
0:16:58 proletarian remember these words they're
0:17:00 important keywords yeah bourgeoisie and
0:17:02 the proletarian so the me the owners of
0:17:05 production the guy who owns the factory
0:17:08 he gets the commodity now the the worker
0:17:11 couldn't do this because the worker
0:17:12 didn't have the capital to buy this
0:17:14 Factory meaning they didn't have the
0:17:15 money for it
0:17:17 so the ones who own the factories are
0:17:19 the ones that have the money
0:17:20 the elitists the aristocracy so he goes
0:17:24 and buys a factory
0:17:25 and now he gets a worker who's mostly me
0:17:29 could argue in the need for this Factory
0:17:31 because they need to live
0:17:34 so they get the workers come in and they
0:17:36 give the worker a stipend some kind of
0:17:39 money that they have to live on
0:17:41 and then they tell the worker
0:17:44 that
0:17:45 you have to change these gold bars I'm
0:17:47 being very crude here obviously it's not
0:17:48 how Rolex operates
0:17:50 like you know but you guys have to
0:17:52 change these gold bars and whatever
0:17:54 other thing you guys have to make Rolex
0:17:56 watches into Rolex watches
0:18:00 they do that the the company makes
0:18:02 profits the workers make profits but the
0:18:06 difference between the profits or gets a
0:18:08 stipend gets a wage the difference
0:18:11 between the profit of the company and
0:18:14 the wage
0:18:16 of the uh worker that differential is
0:18:21 referred to as Surplus value that
0:18:23 differential is seen as the difference
0:18:25 of exploitation
0:18:27 basically theft
0:18:29 that you should have given me more
0:18:31 basically if it was going to be fair
0:18:33 that you should have let me put it this
0:18:35 way you get the gold bar for one pound
0:18:38 100 pound
0:18:42 let's say it's apples forget about Rolex
0:18:44 watches let's make it easier right let's
0:18:47 let's change the example how much is an
0:18:50 Apple nowadays in the shop is it 50
0:18:51 pence
0:18:52 50 pence three apples per pound is that
0:18:54 is that what it goes for now
0:18:56 about right all right so you get three
0:18:58 apples for one pound yep
0:19:00 we got three apples
0:19:02 okay we give it to a person we say
0:19:05 squeeze it make it nice whatever dude
0:19:07 mix into nice apple juice and then he
0:19:09 sells it for for two pound fifty
0:19:13 you'd squeeze the net making a nice put
0:19:15 sugar in there maybe honey I don't know
0:19:16 what they do right and then he sells it
0:19:18 for what 200 2.50
0:19:20 so he bought it for one pound he
0:19:22 squeezed it
0:19:24 whatever I've done what he did to do and
0:19:26 he sold it for 25.50
0:19:27 let's say he gets 50p for each cup he
0:19:30 makes
0:19:32 so one pound
0:19:33 plus 50p how much is the owner going to
0:19:35 get
0:19:37 one pound
0:19:38 one pound right
0:19:40 so
0:19:41 on Marx's analysis that one pound is
0:19:44 theft that should have gone to who
0:19:48 that should have gone to the worker
0:19:50 because why he that owner didn't do
0:19:52 anything that owner the owner only put
0:19:55 the things together
0:19:59 no but Marx would say no it's not the
0:20:01 right of the owner because the only
0:20:03 thing that gave that Apple those apples
0:20:05 value
0:20:06 was
0:20:08 the guy squeezing up and making it into
0:20:10 apple juice otherwise otherwise it would
0:20:12 have been worth a pound
0:20:14 it was the honor is also working
0:20:16 I suppose the owner says
0:20:20 but like doing paperwork maybe okay
0:20:24 he's supposed to be also getting paid
0:20:27 this is a good point this is not a bad
0:20:28 point because some would argue while the
0:20:30 owner is also contributing to the
0:20:32 workload maybe he's got five workers and
0:20:34 maybe he has an office oversight
0:20:36 function and that's also labor but
0:20:39 they'll say no problem
0:20:40 I'm just counteracting right what they
0:20:42 would say no problem give them a wage
0:20:45 yet even if you give that person a wage
0:20:47 there'd still be a differential let's
0:20:49 say that he's got 20 workers
0:20:52 why should his wage be any more than the
0:20:54 other workers that are working there
0:20:56 and if it and per hour for example
0:20:58 whatever it is and if we do make it the
0:21:00 same as everyone else is working there
0:21:02 then whatever the differential is is
0:21:05 going to be much more disparate
0:21:07 so once again you have a surplus which
0:21:09 which favors what it favors the owner
0:21:12 because otherwise you wouldn't have a
0:21:14 profit if you didn't have a profit then
0:21:15 you wouldn't have what a continuous I
0:21:18 mean you could have a company that works
0:21:19 on break even
0:21:21 right it works on break even but but the
0:21:24 the distribution within that the
0:21:26 breakdown doesn't it wouldn't be
0:21:28 completely equal you would say
0:21:30 do you understand the theory here what's
0:21:32 going on
0:21:33 all right tell me now I want you to
0:21:35 think about it one more time because I
0:21:36 haven't got any good answers here
0:21:38 yeah go ahead
0:21:40 yeah one that the owner he's
0:21:42 facilitating the production
0:21:44 um but also like the person who gets the
0:21:46 50p in this example he's in need of that
0:21:48 job so you could say that like his need
0:21:50 for that job is equivalent to that
0:21:52 Surplus value please win to sacrifice
0:21:54 yeah this is a capitalist argument
0:21:57 but the Communist would say is this is
0:21:59 exactly what exploitation is
0:22:01 all right we clarify the question then
0:22:02 yeah my question is what are the
0:22:05 strengths what could be seen as if you
0:22:08 put yourself in the perspective of
0:22:09 someone who agrees with this Theory
0:22:12 what would you how what are the merits
0:22:14 of this argument
0:22:17 no no what are the merits of the theory
0:22:19 of surplus let's start with that what
0:22:21 are the merits what makes sense about it
0:22:23 what seems intelligible about it yes
0:22:26 it's achieving so the first one is that
0:22:28 um what you have is that what the
0:22:31 Assumption I guess he's making is that
0:22:33 basically you should be paid as much as
0:22:35 your Labor's worth which is like to most
0:22:37 people don't say that's pretty fair
0:22:38 right if I if if what I do makes is is
0:22:42 making money then you should give me
0:22:43 what I'm worth so my labor should be
0:22:45 equal to what I'm getting paid also
0:22:47 you've got like the critique of of
0:22:49 capitalist capitalism I guess being
0:22:51 driven by profit because what that does
0:22:54 is it kind of exacerbates the
0:22:55 exploitation that's taking place because
0:22:57 the owner has an incentive then to I
0:22:59 guess make the workers work more hours
0:23:01 and decrease their pay so they're
0:23:03 getting exploited ever more so with that
0:23:06 I guess I guess if you accept Master's
0:23:08 assumptions here then you've got like it
0:23:10 makes sense so that's a really good
0:23:12 point these are the kinds of arguments
0:23:13 by the way you'd be more likely to find
0:23:15 within socialists and by the way
0:23:18 socialism full intensity plus is a
0:23:20 different ideology to earn Marxism and
0:23:22 or communism
0:23:25 but sometimes it can be used
0:23:27 interchangeably so that's once again one
0:23:29 of those things you have to be very
0:23:30 careful about because depends on someone
0:23:32 that describes himself as a socialist
0:23:34 they're not necessarily saying they
0:23:35 believe in communism like in modern
0:23:38 vernacular they're talking about a
0:23:39 strongly
0:23:40 redistributionary system
0:23:43 but what the so well they're not saying
0:23:46 that the government should own all uh
0:23:48 you know the means of production
0:23:51 having said that
0:23:52 the kind of thing you just said there is
0:23:54 more I would say more in line of
0:23:55 socialism I'll tell you why because if
0:23:57 you say well the
0:23:58 the
0:24:00 um it's the case and it is the case that
0:24:03 in you in modern society
0:24:05 uh profit maximizing firms
0:24:08 because there's more there's more than
0:24:09 one objective for a firm there's Revenue
0:24:11 maximization there's profit maximum Etc
0:24:13 profit maximizing firms
0:24:16 they tend to
0:24:18 want to reduce their overheads in order
0:24:20 to create a bigger profit
0:24:21 yeah
0:24:22 and so if the government doesn't set a
0:24:25 minimum wage for example
0:24:27 a living wage for example then there's
0:24:29 going to be exploitation and that's a
0:24:31 very strong argument I think most people
0:24:34 maybe would agree with this argument
0:24:35 some extent because
0:24:37 it you can see I mean the exploitation
0:24:40 that can happen with it and that's why
0:24:41 you have minimum wages and you have
0:24:42 living wages otherwise it can easily
0:24:44 disintegrate into slavery actually you
0:24:46 can give someone 10 pence an hour
0:24:48 that has or whatever it may be that's an
0:24:51 extreme example but you know
0:24:54 uh the the point is is that
0:24:57 Mark sees even if it was one pence
0:25:01 any quantity of value
0:25:04 which is a surplus would be exploitation
0:25:07 whether that's expanded or Limited
0:25:10 is irrelevant here
0:25:12 if it's one pence or one pound
0:25:14 any of it is exploitation
0:25:17 all right I'll give you a chance now to
0:25:19 think about the the weaknesses of this
0:25:21 we're talking we thought about let's
0:25:23 talk about the strength the strengths
0:25:24 first of all to summarize is that
0:25:27 it's easy to determine that there is a
0:25:29 labor cost
0:25:31 because if there was no labor cost
0:25:32 there'd be no difference between the
0:25:34 gold bar and the Rolex watch clearly
0:25:37 there is a label cost so it has some
0:25:39 explanatory scope because it explains
0:25:41 the differential between the the raw
0:25:44 commodity and the end product
0:25:46 and clearly there is
0:25:49 in the other example that we gave a
0:25:51 difference between the raw apple and the
0:25:52 apple juice
0:25:54 so the labor cost is there and clearly
0:25:56 the labor cost has an influence on
0:25:58 profits
0:26:00 and clearly the the labor cost has an
0:26:02 influence
0:26:04 um has an and it's true also that there
0:26:06 is a differential between the labor
0:26:08 costs and the maximum profits so there
0:26:10 are some aspects of this which are
0:26:12 almost undeniable
0:26:14 what he's talking about almost
0:26:15 undeniable
0:26:17 but now what we need to think about is
0:26:19 considering the notion of exploitation
0:26:22 how would you try and refute the idea of
0:26:24 cell plus value
0:26:25 and our auth is this a all-encompassing
0:26:30 theory is or are there things that you
0:26:31 think are missing with the theory of
0:26:33 surplus so two things I want you to
0:26:34 think about number one
0:26:38 is
0:26:39 actually just think about that is this
0:26:42 all explaining
0:26:43 and can we therefore say that that is
0:26:46 exploitation
0:26:47 yeah so does surplus value explain all
0:26:50 the variables
0:26:51 in say a market economy and if so is
0:26:54 that could we now jump from saying this
0:26:56 is the case go back to David Hume to
0:26:58 this is
0:27:00 ought not to be the case for example and
0:27:01 it's exploit because it's exploitation
0:27:03 so think about that you've got three
0:27:05 four minutes and we'll come back
0:27:08 okay
0:27:09 yes
0:27:11 so what are in your opinion some of the
0:27:13 disadvantages or weaknesses of the
0:27:15 theory of surplus value
0:27:17 it one he seems to take into account the
0:27:20 value of the laborer the labor of the
0:27:22 laborer but not the value of the initial
0:27:25 Capital put into uh by the bourgeoisie
0:27:28 or the uh the start of the factory he
0:27:31 would he I think he would uh disagree
0:27:33 with that
0:27:34 it's a good point it's a good try but I
0:27:36 think he would disagree with that
0:27:37 because he would say that the initial
0:27:38 Capital are you talking about the
0:27:40 initial commodity capital or the overall
0:27:41 capital of like the factory even if you
0:27:43 say the overall he seems to assume that
0:27:46 the value of that is uh is equal to the
0:27:49 value of the labor but uh how would he
0:27:52 justify that one could one could argue
0:27:55 that uh the the value of the initial
0:27:58 capital is more valuable than how you're
0:28:00 defining the initial Capital like for
0:28:02 example we're talking about just the
0:28:03 commodity or are we talking about for
0:28:05 example all the expenses that goes into
0:28:07 the business initially they would try
0:28:09 and do that they would actually try and
0:28:11 they would they would try and put all of
0:28:12 that if they're doing it right they
0:28:14 would try and put all of that initial
0:28:15 Capital first and then subtract from
0:28:17 that the the the work of the well yeah I
0:28:21 don't yeah so the point I'm trying to
0:28:22 make is you could take the exact amount
0:28:24 and say this is how much it's valuable
0:28:25 but I think the fact that uh it is
0:28:28 requiring the first place makes it more
0:28:30 valuable than the exact amount that uh
0:28:32 like on paper the exact amount that
0:28:35 that it is on paper does that make sense
0:28:39 because because yeah one risk and also
0:28:43 the fact that uh without it they
0:28:45 wouldn't be a factory in the first place
0:28:48 I think you could make an argument like
0:28:49 this but it would be difficult and
0:28:51 there's a stronger argument to be made
0:28:52 about Surplus value against it
0:28:55 and I'm
0:28:56 yeah you're on the right tracks for sure
0:28:59 but you can strengthen your argument
0:29:01 you can strengthen your
0:29:03 uh the labor that goes into getting the
0:29:05 raw materials do they take that into
0:29:06 account like getting the apples who does
0:29:09 that the owner does that they probably
0:29:10 do take that into account oh wow
0:29:13 how about the fact that the theory like
0:29:16 if we do go along this Theory and we do
0:29:17 say yeah let the labor labor or get all
0:29:20 of the Surplus value then what could end
0:29:23 up happening is that like he was he's
0:29:25 not he's not suggesting that the
0:29:26 therefore let the laborer have all the
0:29:29 money okay he has his own prescriptions
0:29:32 which we'll cover in the next lesson
0:29:34 which is the state should actually own
0:29:36 all the means of production and
0:29:37 distribute it itself in accordance with
0:29:38 equality or his understanding of it
0:29:42 uh but he's just showing this is the
0:29:44 reason why free market Economist
0:29:45 economics doesn't work or capitalistic
0:29:47 economics doesn't work because it
0:29:49 creates these kinds of exploitations
0:29:52 right
0:29:53 um but this kind of like term
0:29:54 expectation it keeps coming up right but
0:29:56 like one could say that this is a
0:29:58 necessarily exploitation because the
0:30:00 laborer like he has the choice to you
0:30:02 know be within a contract or not so they
0:30:06 would they would dispute that they would
0:30:08 say that he doesn't really have what is
0:30:10 a choice when if you're if you don't do
0:30:12 it you'll you'll die okay
0:30:14 okay maybe another question you see the
0:30:16 point yeah yeah
0:30:17 um but then I kind of I'll say another
0:30:20 another thing that he's missing in his
0:30:22 uh Theory right is that there are a few
0:30:24 elements that are missing things like
0:30:27 um what happens if there's another one
0:30:29 person you know contributing to the same
0:30:30 product
0:30:31 um they shouldn't be all getting paid
0:30:33 the same amount of work I mean amount of
0:30:35 um money because they might be uh doing
0:30:38 different qualities of work no he
0:30:40 wouldn't necessarily say that they
0:30:41 should be right say for example he's
0:30:43 just saying that at the end of it the
0:30:45 owner is going to get the Lion's Share
0:30:48 is going to he's going to get more than
0:30:50 the the owner should get
0:30:53 yeah but like how how can he prove that
0:30:56 right but how can you prove that the
0:30:58 owner is going to get more than you
0:30:59 should get
0:31:00 they prove it by looking at the the
0:31:02 price of the commodity
0:31:04 the the raw price of the apples in the
0:31:06 example that I gave before the price of
0:31:08 the gold that we talked about before and
0:31:10 they look at the profit that is made
0:31:11 from the company
0:31:13 doesn't take all the profit all the time
0:31:17 the net profits yeah like the Surplus
0:31:19 value the owner doesn't take the Surplus
0:31:20 value all the time
0:31:23 it's a net profits yeah the owner takes
0:31:25 the net profits
0:31:26 well as in not for not for himself and
0:31:28 for his living all the time
0:31:30 you can reinvest it if he likes but
0:31:32 there's still his still his money right
0:31:38 what's the issue with that like what's
0:31:40 the issue that's fine what's the issue
0:31:42 with it yeah you can say this is this is
0:31:44 fine but we're still going back to
0:31:46 Surplus value what's the issue with it
0:31:48 is a different question okay right go
0:31:51 ahead like he wants to have a a like a
0:31:54 factory yeah we're workers but we know
0:31:57 we know both
0:31:59 like the workers work but there's no
0:32:02 there's no way to like
0:32:04 um to take all the so we're not working
0:32:06 for someone
0:32:07 are we working for ourselves
0:32:09 no he would he would remember he was his
0:32:12 his solution to this and we're going to
0:32:14 come to him
0:32:15 what's the question
0:32:18 does he mean like that so he means the
0:32:21 uh in a factory everything you do is
0:32:23 supposed to be the old you do is for
0:32:26 yourself
0:32:27 like for for each individual not for
0:32:29 someone no yeah he's saying that the
0:32:31 owner should not take it yeah so in a
0:32:34 sense yes it's not right for the owner
0:32:36 to take the Surplus value
0:32:44 so if you have a you know my
0:32:48 understanding of craft is someone so
0:32:49 someone makes chairs yes at home yes
0:32:54 so I would say that would never
0:32:56 they will always do the same it will
0:32:58 never innovate whenever she never
0:33:01 become something else
0:33:03 yeah yeah yeah that's what we'll come to
0:33:05 this uh that it does kill you the
0:33:07 incentive a little bit if you have so if
0:33:09 you if you do in with
0:33:11 you're gonna have to become with a
0:33:13 businessman
0:33:14 or like yeah that's what a capitalist
0:33:16 would say a capitalist would say that
0:33:18 really if you don't want to get
0:33:19 exploited be a businessman no no like I
0:33:22 mean I'm I'm talking about the craft
0:33:23 yeah yeah so if the guy decides to like
0:33:25 change to create something different or
0:33:28 bigger or better yes and to explore new
0:33:32 markets so it would it would be it would
0:33:36 become
0:33:37 he would use new he would use workers so
0:33:40 that workers will become it was with the
0:33:42 same the same thing yeah yeah and he
0:33:44 doesn't exactly you'll see this is the
0:33:46 problem with the system that's why you
0:33:47 can't have that's why you have to have a
0:33:50 different kind of system so you you have
0:33:51 a system that's always stuck
0:33:53 same place yeah a system which is that
0:33:55 the government owns the means of
0:33:57 production yeah and it distributes it
0:33:58 equally you still have factories but now
0:34:01 the government's going to be paying the
0:34:02 workers not not the owner so there is no
0:34:06 incentive to there's no motivation to
0:34:08 like to compete computer to grow yeah
0:34:10 this is this is a common common uh
0:34:12 criticism this is a this is good it's
0:34:15 moving on to criticisms but we haven't
0:34:17 we haven't reached this because this is
0:34:18 a very common and straightforward
0:34:20 everyone I'm sure everyone knows this
0:34:22 criticism we want to go deeper with
0:34:24 Marxism yeah in terms of uh when he's
0:34:27 judging value of the labor and the uh
0:34:30 the capital put in by the uh in the
0:34:33 owner of the factory he seems to only be
0:34:34 looking at it from a monetary sense
0:34:36 instead of looking for like a uh from
0:34:39 the sense of how useful it is for
0:34:41 example yes if you get rid of one
0:34:43 laborer the fact is still function but
0:34:45 if you get rid of the capital of the
0:34:47 owner you wouldn't have a factory in the
0:34:49 first place I think you're you're
0:34:51 definitely onto something with that uh
0:34:52 you could you you could make that
0:34:54 argument it has to develop a little bit
0:34:55 more
0:34:56 but let me tell you conventionally what
0:34:58 kinds of arguments have been made
0:34:59 because it's the relief any other points
0:35:01 before you do that or Surplus value we
0:35:04 had two things the first one was quite
0:35:06 similar to what um what the Bible was
0:35:07 saying which was to do with the issue of
0:35:10 um like he's trying to calculate how
0:35:11 much the Labor's worth yes so from from
0:35:13 the owner's standpoint what he's saying
0:35:15 is that okay like like you may be very
0:35:16 good at making watches but if I don't
0:35:18 provide you with the machine for you to
0:35:19 be able to make watches your whatever
0:35:21 doesn't mean anything yes so your labor
0:35:24 the work your labor only starts to mean
0:35:26 something because I've given you
0:35:27 something for it to mean something
0:35:28 that's right so you can make this
0:35:29 argument you can definitely make this
0:35:31 argument the argument that the labor
0:35:33 itself in abstraction yeah is it's not
0:35:36 worth as much as you think it's worth
0:35:38 precisely because obviously everyone
0:35:40 knows right in the theory of Market free
0:35:43 market economics what makes something
0:35:45 more expensive or less expensive
0:35:52 you have a graph this is or a chart the
0:35:55 minus Supply chart yeah which is
0:35:57 basically these two things and the price
0:35:59 is where demand and Supply is that's a
0:36:01 very simplistic model
0:36:03 but how what the the extent to which
0:36:06 something is higher in value and lower
0:36:08 in value
0:36:10 is not just contingent upon
0:36:13 the labor plus the commodity
0:36:16 those are the factors
0:36:18 one of them is consumer preference
0:36:22 consumer preference for example right
0:36:24 let me give you a very simple example
0:36:26 you've go back to
0:36:28 our two examples okay the Apple example
0:36:31 and the Rolex example
0:36:33 I get some gold bars
0:36:35 and I give it to Rolex and they make it
0:36:37 into Rolex watches a very crude example
0:36:39 yeah
0:36:40 and I get the apples I give them to
0:36:42 Tropicana
0:36:43 and they make apple juice just like they
0:36:45 make orange juice
0:36:47 I'll give the same gold bars and the
0:36:49 same apple juice
0:36:51 to I don't know give me another company
0:36:53 that they want to throw under the bus
0:36:55 you know
0:36:57 they're all right they're doing okay
0:37:00 like Folex for like a fake a fake Rolex
0:37:03 watch yeah a full legs so if if you guys
0:37:07 are workers for folix
0:37:10 versus if your work is for Rolex what's
0:37:13 the name of the watchmaker again
0:37:15 hereology yeah you're a horologist
0:37:18 for for Rolex versus if you're a
0:37:20 horologist for photax
0:37:22 okay is your labor worth the same
0:37:28 now under his model no no forget about
0:37:31 his model for now in general you're
0:37:34 doing the same work you're doing the
0:37:35 same work right
0:37:36 so you're working two three hours
0:37:39 two out of four hours five hours
0:37:40 whatever it is in Folex versus four five
0:37:42 hours in Rolex
0:37:44 at the end of it they'll put the watch
0:37:46 the Rolex watch
0:37:48 and then the other one has the Folex
0:37:50 watch
0:37:51 the guy has worked for the same amount
0:37:52 of hours
0:37:55 well these two guys have worked for the
0:37:56 same amount of hours and they've
0:37:58 produced a very similar product
0:37:59 but branding I mean Rolex who's going to
0:38:02 buy a Folex
0:38:04 only a fool would buy a four legs right
0:38:07 so when the full buys the four legs it's
0:38:10 worth less so the the
0:38:12 utility sorry the price of the Folex is
0:38:16 going to be much less than the price of
0:38:18 what
0:38:19 the Rolex despite the fact that the same
0:38:21 it's the same commodity
0:38:23 and the same labor
0:38:27 would it matter because I think with the
0:38:30 Rolex thing they make them handmade and
0:38:32 they they take Craftsmen whereas the
0:38:35 Folex people could be mass produced in
0:38:37 like um you know like inferior quality
0:38:40 let's assume that the quality is exactly
0:38:42 the same I think it's a good point that
0:38:43 you said that let's assume that the two
0:38:45 things the quality is identical right
0:38:47 you've got Ralph Lauren and you have
0:38:53 they're two very similar like companies
0:38:56 there
0:38:58 why should the Surplus value go still go
0:39:00 to the initial capitalist no no we're
0:39:04 not answering that question but what
0:39:05 we're saying is the point being made
0:39:07 here right is with uh with the faux
0:39:11 company
0:39:12 the the commodity is the same we're
0:39:14 assuming the work is the same or the
0:39:17 labor is the same but the the the price
0:39:19 is different
0:39:21 and the profit is different which shows
0:39:24 what that the labor is not the only
0:39:25 thing which determines Surplus value
0:39:29 that's what it shows because if the
0:39:31 Surplus value is 30 with Rolex and it's
0:39:34 80 percent
0:39:36 for sorry it's 80 for Rolex and 20 for
0:39:40 Folex
0:39:41 the the the Assumption the model would
0:39:43 suggest that the labor subtracted
0:39:48 is eighty percent full stop and that's
0:39:50 how much the the the laborer should get
0:39:53 but the truth is branding has a huge
0:39:55 impact and consumer preference
0:39:57 is as important sometimes as we've seen
0:40:00 with this example more important than
0:40:02 what
0:40:03 than the labor cost
0:40:06 this and this is the common kind of kind
0:40:08 of recourse or uh to the Surplus value
0:40:12 that is it's a it's a it's a fallacy to
0:40:14 assume that it's just commodity plus
0:40:17 labor equals price and then you've got
0:40:21 the Surplus value because you also have
0:40:22 branding you also have the owner might
0:40:25 be doing deals with this person or that
0:40:27 person and had it not been that owner
0:40:30 then that wouldn't have been that price
0:40:32 if you know the story of McDonald's
0:40:35 it used to be called the golden arches
0:40:37 before that
0:40:38 and then in the 50s I think it was that
0:40:40 Ray Kroc took over and he made it called
0:40:43 McDonald's
0:40:44 is something else now because of Ray
0:40:46 Kroc had it not been Ray Kroc it
0:40:49 wouldn't have been McDonald's and had it
0:40:51 not be McDonald's
0:40:53 whatever right
0:40:54 and so therefore branding and consumer
0:40:57 preference
0:40:59 is is a very difficult thing to input
0:41:01 because how are you going to assess that
0:41:03 how are you going to value that so the
0:41:05 market doesn't work in a very
0:41:06 straightforward uh commodity plus labor
0:41:09 kind of way it's much more subjective
0:41:11 than that and for us to to assume that
0:41:15 it's straightforward and that this is
0:41:16 the Surplus value is the first issue not
0:41:19 in
0:41:20 prescription but in diagnostic it is an
0:41:22 issue of diagnostic
0:41:24 so this is one of the criticisms of
0:41:27 actually we've segued into criticism
0:41:29 there's a there's there is a
0:41:32 there is a concept I was thinking maybe
0:41:34 putting anything but I can read out to
0:41:35 you today it's called commodity
0:41:37 fetishism which Karma it's very very
0:41:40 fascinating uh concept I'm going to read
0:41:43 something that he says about it and I'm
0:41:45 going to explain what it is
0:41:56 yeah so he says
0:42:01 the commodity form and the value
0:42:03 relation of the products of Labor within
0:42:05 which it appears have absolutely no
0:42:07 connection with physical nature
0:42:09 of the commodity and the material
0:42:12 relations arising out of this is nothing
0:42:14 but the definite definite social
0:42:16 relations between men themselves which
0:42:18 assumes here for them the fantastic form
0:42:21 of a relation between things in order
0:42:23 therefore to find an analogy we must
0:42:25 take flight into the Misty realm of
0:42:28 religion
0:42:29 there the product of human brain appears
0:42:32 to as appears sorry appear as autonomous
0:42:36 figures endowed with a life of their own
0:42:39 which enters into a relation both with
0:42:42 each other and with uh the human race so
0:42:45 is in the world of Commodities with the
0:42:48 products of men's hands I call this
0:42:50 fetishism
0:42:52 which attaches itself to the product to
0:42:54 the products of Labor as soon as they
0:42:56 produce as Commodities and is therefore
0:42:59 Inseparable from the product production
0:43:01 of commodities
0:43:05 so production of Commodities here
0:43:09 when they are produced
0:43:11 they are seen as valuable because of
0:43:14 this combination of factors we'll go
0:43:17 into more detail about what commodity
0:43:19 fetishism in the next lecture but it's
0:43:22 an important thing maybe to look at a
0:43:23 look out for and look up for next time
0:43:27 now before I go into the criticisms of
0:43:29 Marxism I want to give you guys
0:43:32 two questions
0:43:34 that you can write some 500 words for
0:43:37 I'm going to write them in the group
0:43:39 and one of them is about individualism
0:43:41 another one is about nihilism
0:43:43 okay so you can put this down and for
0:43:46 next Saturday if you want to it's
0:43:48 optional you don't have to do it
0:43:50 500 words we can look at it and see
0:43:53 what people have written and I want you
0:43:54 guys to actually um
0:43:56 read out in class
0:43:58 okay
0:44:00 okay
0:44:01 so the the questions will be
0:44:05 um for for individualism
0:44:08 I'll write it down for you as well in
0:44:09 the group one second let's write down
0:44:10 him
0:44:12 question is
0:44:20 what are the limitations of liberal
0:44:21 individualism
0:44:25 sorry I'm gonna I'm gonna make this a
0:44:28 bit more challenging
0:44:29 critically assess
0:44:33 critically Assessor
0:44:36 the limitations of liberal individualism
0:44:38 yeah
0:44:40 say 500 Words
0:44:44 and the second one
0:44:52 what has been
0:44:53 the effect
0:44:56 of nihilism
0:44:58 in modern society
0:45:03 500 Words
0:45:07 okay
0:45:09 now let's go back to our
0:45:10 that's what we used um
0:45:15 so yes
0:45:16 criticism now of
0:45:18 Marxism
0:45:20 so we talked about Surplus value already
0:45:22 yeah
0:45:24 so the wants of the consumer we talked
0:45:26 about the ones that can see the consumer
0:45:28 wants the Rolex watch
0:45:29 the consumer does not want the full X
0:45:32 watch okay so it doesn't
0:45:35 adequately assess or factor in the wants
0:45:38 of a consumer we talked about that
0:45:41 uh so
0:45:43 um it doesn't and it cannot
0:45:45 uh assess subjective
0:45:49 individual evaluations
0:45:51 why would someone pay more
0:45:54 for X rather than y it's very difficult
0:45:57 to economize this making so it's like
0:45:59 some kind of figure
0:46:01 it's just another thing
0:46:03 uh you've mentioned this it's a reduced
0:46:05 incentive so generally speaking they say
0:46:07 well if you don't have competition
0:46:08 between different companies you're not
0:46:11 fighting for the hearts of the consumer
0:46:13 then this in theory should reduce the
0:46:16 efficiency of the product
0:46:18 in theory it would reduce because we are
0:46:21 and this is predicated on the kind of
0:46:23 conception of human being as competitive
0:46:24 creature
0:46:27 uh we have the Olympics we have all
0:46:29 these kind of you know sports events and
0:46:31 in fact we have these events there to
0:46:33 and if you didn't have the competitors
0:46:35 you wouldn't have the Excellence that's
0:46:36 the idea
0:46:37 and the same thing with companies if you
0:46:39 don't have competition you don't have
0:46:40 Excellence you don't have a reason
0:46:43 to to go the extra mile
0:46:45 and we'll we'll cover this in the next
0:46:47 uh kind of session but it's prone to
0:46:49 high level authoritarianism but Stalin
0:46:52 is a good example how is it and why
0:46:54 would it be more prone You could argue
0:46:55 and this is the argument that's usually
0:46:57 made okay is because obviously every the
0:47:00 government is controlling the means of
0:47:01 production
0:47:02 and that that removes a check on it
0:47:05 which is a checklist if you have a
0:47:08 significant companies and people and so
0:47:11 on that have
0:47:12 uh money other than the government and
0:47:16 they have resources other than the
0:47:17 government then they can check the
0:47:19 government from being tyrannical
0:47:21 another problem is that it's
0:47:23 epistemologically unprovable well at
0:47:25 least um
0:47:26 historical materialism I mean how can
0:47:28 you how can you prove that this kind of
0:47:30 goes back to our first session with
0:47:32 discussions about materialism
0:47:34 and also you can look at some of the
0:47:36 predictions of marks which have failed
0:47:38 which you've already kind of alluded to
0:47:39 which should suggests that the
0:47:41 deterministic and some people do well I
0:47:43 mean
0:47:44 some refer to it as deterministic right
0:47:46 his deterministic conception of movement
0:47:48 from feudalisms capitalism to Communism
0:47:50 has been a great failure
0:47:52 so some actually take this as therefore
0:47:55 the whole thing is
0:47:56 false it's very difficult to say
0:47:59 therefore the whole thing is false but
0:48:00 at least you can say well it's a
0:48:01 limitation of the theory
0:48:04 now Islam is not it's antimoxist in the
0:48:07 sense that it believes in a free market
0:48:09 economy right in a sense that doesn't
0:48:11 believe in that the all of the uh means
0:48:14 of production should be controlled by
0:48:15 the government and one of the most
0:48:18 explicit there's two things that are
0:48:19 very exclusive about this in the Islamic
0:48:21 stance
0:48:21 one of them is the Hadith of the Prophet
0:48:24 where these people were complaining
0:48:26 about the prices of goods in the
0:48:28 marketplace
0:48:29 and very interestingly he said that
0:48:31 Allah is the musash he's the one who
0:48:33 sets the prices meaning
0:48:35 you know the the the famous poem
0:48:40 yeah the famous quote of Adam Smith the
0:48:42 Invisible Hand of the economy literally
0:48:44 this is what kind of like you know leave
0:48:46 it because this it will set the prices
0:48:48 but having said that as you know in
0:48:50 Islam there's very strict prohibitions
0:48:52 on setting prices which are which
0:48:55 undermine the market value
0:48:58 through the Quran you know woe to those
0:49:01 who try and go over in terms of the
0:49:04 prices or cheat people in terms of the
0:49:07 prices
0:49:09 Islam is also very much anti-elitist in
0:49:12 terms of Kayla takuna doulas you know in
0:49:16 chapter number 59 the Quran so it
0:49:18 doesn't become
0:49:19 all that money is not circulated among
0:49:21 the elites amongst you it's talking
0:49:22 about
0:49:23 uh Fey which is like the kind of War
0:49:27 beauty or something but it's a generic
0:49:29 statement that money should not be
0:49:31 circulated among Elites
0:49:33 and obviously we have zakat and with
0:49:34 zakat you have eight different
0:49:36 recipients of zakat as you know and this
0:49:39 includes slaves freeing of slaves it
0:49:41 includes
0:49:43 the people who are poor the downtrodden
0:49:45 and so on Etc
0:49:46 uh you know the people that actually
0:49:49 deliver the zakat uh the people who are
0:49:52 uh
0:49:54 Wayfarer the way the Wayfarer doesn't
0:49:56 have anywhere to go
0:50:02 you know
0:50:04 you know money to go to kind of like you
0:50:07 know uh
0:50:09 uh
0:50:10 Expeditions military Expeditions and so
0:50:13 on and also involves some say dawa
0:50:16 some say that actually
0:50:18 so that's why they should be already
0:50:20 going to sapiens uh
0:50:22 page and uh with the second money I'm
0:50:26 only here but yeah so there's about
0:50:27 eight there are eight categories
0:50:29 mentioned in the Quran and so therefore
0:50:31 uh
0:50:32 and there's there is a verse in the
0:50:34 Quran where it says
0:50:36 foreign
0:50:48 that we have allowed we have allowed
0:50:50 some of you to be above others so that
0:50:54 some of you can be workers to others
0:50:55 basically we have allowed this it's like
0:50:57 it anticipates almost the Marxist
0:51:00 assessment and it says you know this
0:51:02 we've allowed this don't worry the only
0:51:04 thing that we we are going to stop is
0:51:07 one two three four five
0:51:09 uh redistribution has to be this much
0:51:11 it's not it's not a capitalistic Society
0:51:14 so Islam is not a capitalistic it's
0:51:16 anti-capitalism in the sense that
0:51:18 obviously as you know riba is Haram is
0:51:20 the idea of Interest or usually in an
0:51:24 Islamic Society you wouldn't have a
0:51:25 usually usually based economy you would
0:51:27 not have Boomer and that would you would
0:51:29 anticipate at least that would flatten
0:51:30 boom and bust the Peaks and trusts of
0:51:32 the economy
0:51:35 it has this redistribution system but
0:51:37 it's also free market so it's a kind of
0:51:39 combination and we've done this many
0:51:41 times already in these courses but it's
0:51:43 a combination
0:51:44 of it has some redistributionary
0:51:46 elements
0:51:48 and it has some free market elements and
0:51:51 it doesn't agree with either fully and
0:51:53 is somewhere in the middle it genuinely
0:51:55 is somewhere in the middle but it's
0:51:56 definitely not either
0:51:58 it's definitely not capitalistic and
0:51:59 it's definitely normal access
0:52:01 it is somewhere in the middle
0:52:03 you know we believe in redistribution
0:52:06 but free market economics
0:52:08 that's basically it uh
0:52:15 so no not socialism but to be honest if
0:52:19 someone was a socialist Muslim they
0:52:21 could I I would say that it's the thing
0:52:23 is there's a big discussion about can
0:52:25 you take more than zakat
0:52:28 can you take more than zakat kind of
0:52:31 government take more than the cats that
0:52:33 cuts quite a lot 2.5 of the not not of
0:52:37 your your income that's coming in of how
0:52:39 much you like the assets that you have
0:52:41 and that's broken down into like
0:52:43 minerals and if you look at tables
0:52:46 there's different types of like minerals
0:52:47 this kind of like if you own a petroleum
0:52:49 company 2.5 of that is not of how much
0:52:52 is
0:52:53 is there like that's not a joke you know
0:52:55 it'll be enough to do what you need to
0:52:58 do
0:53:01 yeah exactly right 2.5 of the actual
0:53:05 assets that are remaining that are not
0:53:07 used for business uh use by the end of
0:53:09 the year
0:53:13 Etc
0:53:14 once that's done the question is can you
0:53:16 take more than that now some Scholars
0:53:18 say you can take it for darul ra for
0:53:20 this for muscle or for for some common
0:53:23 good but to take it the extent to which
0:53:25 they're taking it in the countries that
0:53:27 we have here like you know 40 50 that's
0:53:30 very difficult to argue for extremely
0:53:32 difficult sorry I'm not saying it's
0:53:34 impossible it's a coffer to believe in
0:53:36 that or disbelief I will refer to some
0:53:39 Scholars and have discussions about
0:53:40 whether that's cover or something but
0:53:43 it's very difficult to argue that
0:53:44 someone can take 30 40 of your wages
0:53:47 uh the government can take it and I put
0:53:49 it in place I don't want it to go like
0:53:50 Trident or whatever
0:53:52 it's difficult
0:53:53 but having said that like remember
0:53:55 Islamic society is very much
0:53:58 Pro caring for people so the idea of the
0:54:02 NHS or the idea of like you know
0:54:05 um having caring over the old
0:54:08 the the basal male like you gave money
0:54:11 to the pensioners
0:54:13 and there was a pension scheme and it
0:54:16 was also for it wasn't just for Muslims
0:54:17 as you know it's for non-muslims as well
0:54:19 Christians and Jews it was a Jewish man
0:54:21 who came and asked about it and he
0:54:22 implemented it on the back of his
0:54:23 request so there was a pension system
0:54:26 for uh for for for elderly people for
0:54:28 the the people the week the downtrodden
0:54:31 et cetera that has to be there otherwise
0:54:32 you're gonna get people dying on the
0:54:33 streets
0:54:34 otherwise you're going to get huge
0:54:36 inequalities
0:54:37 and that's not the Islamic ideal the
0:54:39 Islamic ideal is not that you have huge
0:54:41 inequalities in uh earnings actually the
0:54:44 Islamic ideals is that rich people put
0:54:46 their money into
0:54:47 autonomously put their money into poor
0:54:50 people and there's so much discourse
0:54:52 about that look around but if it's not
0:54:54 autonomous and if it's forced then it
0:54:57 kills the test
0:54:59 it's like you know and so therefore
0:55:01 there is an aspect of free market
0:55:02 economics there within Islam
0:55:05 so that's pretty much the Islamic
0:55:07 position there are some Muslim Scholars
0:55:10 and that will go more in I'm not saying
0:55:13 be socialist but more in a socialist
0:55:14 Direction and there'll be more that go
0:55:16 on as a capitalist Direction but there
0:55:17 are some things you can't you can't go
0:55:19 too far in that direction you can
0:55:21 certainly not go too far in that
0:55:22 direction there are limits that are set
0:55:24 in place by Islam
0:55:26 so there's no taxes
0:55:29 other than the 2.5 they can be they can
0:55:32 be taxes but they once again they have
0:55:35 to be negotiated very carefully
0:55:38 you know for example the idea of someone
0:55:41 taking my money
0:55:43 and putting it into Trident well they
0:55:45 couldn't have tried it that would be uh
0:55:47 unbelievable like that's unbelievable
0:55:49 into a world I don't want to be involved
0:55:51 in or
0:55:53 that's uh so yeah things like that
0:55:55 that's there are negotiables and
0:55:56 non-negotiables
0:55:58 and we can't say we can't be dogmatic
0:56:00 about it but we are saying that on the
0:56:02 two sides the right the right extreme
0:56:04 and the left extreme it slams against
0:56:05 those two things
0:56:06 that where the government owns all music
0:56:08 production that's that will be seen as
0:56:10 theft there's actually be seen this like
0:56:12 if I had a house and the government said
0:56:13 get out of your house that would be seen
0:56:15 as theft but on the other hand the other
0:56:17 side of it as well the free market
0:56:18 extreme
0:56:19 where you have usually based systems and
0:56:22 stuff that would not be there they would
0:56:23 not they would not the city would not
0:56:25 look like the way it's looking now where
0:56:26 people are going up and down and bankers
0:56:28 are getting this kind of money and
0:56:30 in an Islamic system that would be
0:56:31 impossible
0:56:33 in fact they would be out of business
0:56:34 very quickly
0:56:38 system
0:56:39 there are this is a this is a huge
0:56:41 question bro it's a huge question it's a
0:56:44 huge question and uh quite frankly one
0:56:46 that I'm still struggling with myself
0:56:47 but and so if you if you want to know
0:56:50 straightforwardly what we have in UK for
0:56:53 example Ryan bank and these kind of
0:56:55 things
0:56:55 you know there are because they put two
0:56:58 contracts in one contract and stuff like
0:57:00 that there's discussions about that
0:57:01 whether it's
0:57:03 goes back to the Islamic scholars and
0:57:05 experts in finance
0:57:08 and with that we conclude in the second
0:57:10 session inshallah we'll go more into
0:57:11 alienation into maybe commodity
0:57:13 fetishism we'll go into some uh some uh
0:57:16 some historical examples of what
0:57:18 happened to Marxism and uh hopefully
0:57:20 that will give us a more full
0:57:22 understanding of Marxism because I feel
0:57:23 it is actually a very important ideology
0:57:26 because it's not just abstract this is
0:57:28 something which had an impact on world
0:57:31 affairs with that I conclude with salaam
0:57:34 alaikum