Transgender Debates Muslim on FGM!! (2017-05-11)

## Description

An interesting discussion on FGM and a shocking contrast is made between this practice and transgendered operations.

Summary of Transgender Debates Muslim on FGM!!

This summary is AI generated - there may be inaccuracies. *

00:00:00 [00:30:00

features a debate between a Muslim and a transgender person on the topic of female genital mutilation (FGM). The Muslim argues that, because some people willingly undergo FGM, it is not mutilation and should be allowed. The transgender person argues that, because FGM is done against the individual's will, it is mutilation and therefore illegal.

00:00:00 a Muslim discusses whether or not female genital mutilation (FGM) is a moral act or an immoral act. He argues that, from his perspective, it is not okay because it is changing a person's sex from male to female, which is something that is not allowed in Islam. He also argues that, from a sociological perspective, it is only fair to include the western world, which is where the practice of FGM originated, in the statistics on FGM.

00:05:00 , a Muslim discusses gender identity and FGM. He argues that the world organization should focus on the prevalence of FGM within Muslim cultures, not on the individuals who undergo FGM. He also says that he has had a clitoridectomy, which he believes should be illegal, no matter the circumstances.
00:10:00 argues that Muslims should condemn female genital mutilation (FGM) because it is a western practice that is not in accordance with Islamic teachings. He also contends that sex changes, which are not sanctioned by Islam, are equally unacceptable.
00:15:00 Discusses transgender debates with a Muslim on FGM. says that, as a Muslim, he agrees that FGM is wrong, but that a person who has undergone FGM willingly should be counted as one of those who have performed the practice. He also argues that the west is not like a Muslim, and that the definition of FGM set by the World Health Organization is too narrow.
00:20:00 , two people debate the morality of female genital mutilation (FGM). The first person argues that FGM is morally wrong, regardless of a person's reasons for doing it. The second person argues that, if a person wants to change their gender, FGM is acceptable, provided that they are willing and consent to the procedure.
00:25:00 This Muslim discusses how there is a "double standard" when it comes to how the west operates and conceptualizes different practices, such as female genital mutilation (FGM). He argues that if someone is willingly changing from male to female, then that should be considered fgm, even if it does not involve clitoridectomy. If the west does not redefine fgm, it will be a contradiction and a false way of measuring data.
00:30:00 , a Muslim debates a transgender person on whether or not female genital mutilation (FGM) is against the individual's will. The transgender person argues that, because the FGM is done against the individual's will, it is mutilation and therefore illegal. The Muslim argues that, because the FGM is done willingly by some people, it is not mutilation and should be allowed.

Full transcript with timestamps: CLICK TO EXPAND

0:00:00 is it a moral act or is it immoral 0:00:04 well 0:00:05 in the context of me putting myself in 0:00:07 her shoes 0:00:08 she believes that that is fine for her 0:00:10 but i'm just saying as a society should 0:00:13 a society accept that as a moral action 0:00:15 or as an immoral action 0:00:19 should it be legal or should it be 0:00:21 illegal 0:00:22 well in the context of what you're 0:00:24 giving me she's saying she you're giving 0:00:26 me the protocol that 0:00:28 let's say she's with 0:00:31 because you said in the beginning i'm 0:00:32 not saying that anyone i'm just asking 0:00:34 you 0:00:35 a woman in ethiopia willingly from her 0:00:39 own volition and her own autonomous 0:00:41 decision-making capabilities in her 0:00:42 culture decides because of cultural 0:00:44 reasons so that she wants to move the 0:00:46 entire clitoris i am saying from a 0:00:49 muslim perspective that's not right yeah 0:00:51 now i'm saying why is that not right 0:00:53 because actually the prophet said that's 0:00:55 not right he told us yes 0:00:56 what you're having here is that's you 0:00:59 i'm just asking do you agree with me or 0:01:00 do you disagree with me no i'm i'm going 0:01:02 to i can't give a simple answer because 0:01:04 what you're trying to do is you're 0:01:05 trying to make me a muslim to give your 0:01:07 no i don't want to make it but what i'm 0:01:09 saying is that from your point of view 0:01:11 you're saying it's wrong but from her 0:01:14 point of view because of that's her 0:01:16 culture and because that's the way her 0:01:18 culture wants to be and because she 0:01:19 wants to fit into her culture so is that 0:01:21 okay for you sir fg i'm not saying it's 0:01:23 okay for me i'm saying from your point 0:01:25 of view it's not okay 0:01:27 from her point of view it is okay from 0:01:29 my point of view it's a very difficult 0:01:32 decision for me to make because 0:01:33 obviously i cannot understand that 0:01:36 that's her culture let me ask you guys 0:01:42 the sociological statistics that detail 0:01:44 fgm and mgm i believe also 0:01:48 yeah but just let me say one number 0:01:50 i believe that if because i've changed 0:01:53 it from one thing to another yes if a 0:01:55 woman 0:01:56 is taking out her vagina and not putting 0:01:58 a penis not by your clitoris okay okay 0:02:00 yeah 0:02:01 all right 0:02:02 and sorry there's other parts which i 0:02:04 didn't say she doesn't just to clear us 0:02:05 okay well for example if it's just the 0:02:08 clitoris that means that she's just 0:02:10 taking away the bit that has sensation 0:02:12 so maybe 0:02:14 for her that means that she doesn't want 0:02:16 to be sexual whereas for you maybe 0:02:19 even though from a muslim point of view 0:02:21 maybe you do like to have sex with your 0:02:23 wife but on the other hand maybe other 0:02:25 people don't want to have sex so this is 0:02:26 a very difficult thing as well okay 0:02:28 because you're taking away the clitoris 0:02:30 means that you're taking so what you're 0:02:31 imparting the sensation of being able to 0:02:34 have an orgasm so maybe if she doesn't 0:02:36 want to have that and her culture 0:02:38 doesn't want herself that and if she 0:02:39 doesn't so fgm is okay in that context 0:02:41 i'm not saying it's okay but i'm using 0:02:43 your arguments 0:02:45 i'm not making arguments a muslim trying 0:02:47 to impress your view on something yeah 0:02:49 i'm not trying to preserve you i'm just 0:02:51 saying 0:02:52 because this is the question that's all 0:02:53 why are you posing the question to me 0:02:55 and putting me i mean i'm trying to be 0:02:56 put into a box but like no hold on 0:02:59 because i've done this myself i'm not in 0:03:00 that cultural realm okay 0:03:05 the statistics that detail 0:03:08 uh the amount of times fgm is done on a 0:03:09 particular place or or mgm 0:03:12 they don't detail 0:03:14 basically a man changing it to women and 0:03:15 women changing to a man however if you 0:03:17 look at the definition according to the 0:03:18 world health organization the nhs it 0:03:21 doesn't stipulate in the definition of 0:03:24 the world health organization that the 0:03:26 person had to be willing or not willing 0:03:27 in other words if a woman decides to do 0:03:30 a clitoridectomy and take her whole 0:03:32 vagina away 0:03:34 then that becomes yes that become or 0:03:36 even the libya and there's other even 0:03:38 even if she has a piercing there 0:03:39 according to the world health 0:03:40 organization that becomes fgm now my 0:03:43 question is because as muslims we're 0:03:45 always asking these questions i'm it's 0:03:47 my time today to be honest with you in 0:03:48 this in this in this blog where i'm 0:03:50 going to tell you to ask the questions 0:03:52 because if i'm saying to you right now 0:03:54 why are not for example people like 0:03:57 yourself 0:03:58 counted in the statistics because what 0:04:00 you've effectively done is you've taken 0:04:01 away you've done mgm you've taken away 0:04:03 the genitalia of the man you've done it 0:04:04 willingly i'm not taking that away from 0:04:06 you you have done it willingly but 0:04:08 you've taken it away 0:04:09 and you've morphed it into something 0:04:10 else now what i'm saying is from a 0:04:12 sociological perspective it's only fair 0:04:15 if we include the western world who 0:04:17 decides to do that as part of a a place 0:04:20 or a hub or a hemisphere which actually 0:04:22 practices mgm and fgm do you agree or 0:04:24 disagree let me try to understand your 0:04:26 thing because we need to go slowly here 0:04:28 because maybe your education or the 0:04:30 question to answer it i need to 0:04:32 understand 0:04:33 so 0:04:34 for me 0:04:35 when i transitioned yes basically 0:04:38 i've now got 0:04:40 a birth certificate and everything else 0:04:42 which has changed from being who i was 0:04:44 before to who i am now so the question i 0:04:47 just want to understand your question as 0:04:48 regards 0:04:49 i've been changed from a male to a 0:04:52 female and in the statistics in law i am 0:04:55 now 0:04:56 naomi i'm now female so in the context 0:04:59 of this country yes i have now gone from 0:05:02 the statistic or whatever you're saying 0:05:04 the world organization have been uh who 0:05:06 i was before so what you wanna know who 0:05:09 was a raped whatever yeah to now being 0:05:11 naomi who is more comfortable in my skin 0:05:14 i'm not i'm not i'm not even challenging 0:05:15 that and at this moment i'm not even 0:05:17 challenged and to add on to another bit 0:05:19 to make it more personal to me that's 0:05:21 your question i want to 0:05:35 because you may want to pick this up as 0:05:36 well and i'm quite happy for you to do 0:05:38 so yeah from my own personal point of 0:05:40 view because i was raped 0:05:42 i have had what's known as a labia 0:05:44 labioplasty there's two different sex 0:05:46 changes a vaginoplasty and a labioplasty 0:05:49 vaginoplasty just basically means that 0:05:51 if 0:05:52 somebody has a vagina plastic it means 0:05:54 that when they go from male to female in 0:05:56 other words have their vagina it means a 0:05:59 man can do his business where what i 0:06:01 decided was because i was great and 0:06:03 because i had lots of difficulties with 0:06:05 being a raped homosexual and ending up 0:06:08 doing addiction to cover up my pain of 0:06:10 rape i chose labioplasty which means i 0:06:12 don't want a man's whatever in my thing 0:06:15 okay so from your point of view the only 0:06:16 reason i'm saying all of that is because 0:06:18 you may have an issue with the fact that 0:06:20 i've 0:06:22 you were having 0:06:23 you're having issues with about people 0:06:25 taking away their clitoris 0:06:29 now basically 0:06:30 i've got the clitoris but i don't have a 0:06:32 feeling because when you have a sex 0:06:34 change you may not have it if you don't 0:06:36 mind i i i don't want to take away 0:06:38 anything from your personal experience 0:06:39 i'm not here to judge you on your 0:06:41 personal side your experience you have 0:06:43 absolute 0:06:44 autonomy of your own experiences i'm not 0:06:45 here to challenge you on that i'm here 0:06:47 talking about something sociological 0:06:49 something societal do you understand 0:06:51 because basically we have to understand 0:06:52 that when we do sociology and when the 0:06:54 public are told something okay when the 0:06:56 british public or the western public are 0:06:58 told for example look muslims are 0:07:00 forcing an ex person why persons that 0:07:02 person to do fgm and uh what is fgm they 0:07:05 define it as basically the removal of 0:07:07 the clitoris or even less than that but 0:07:09 at the same time they allow for example 0:07:12 a kind of clitoridectomy to happen under 0:07:14 the guise of another culture which is 0:07:15 western liberalism i personally believe 0:07:18 even if you do say okay it's not being 0:07:20 done uh willingly or unwillingly because 0:07:22 we've covered that already 0:07:24 fgm i would say it should be illegal 0:07:25 whether it's done willingly or 0:07:26 unwillingly if the woman comes forward 0:07:28 i'm saying to you it should be a fair 0:07:30 standard you should have in the 0:07:31 sociological statistics i wonder where 0:07:33 the west would rank i wonder where the 0:07:35 res west would rank if you put all of 0:07:37 the sex changes that will be done meant 0:07:39 to women to men yeah on the sociological 0:07:42 ladder because if you do i promise you 0:07:43 the west will not be on the bottom and 0:07:45 ethiopia will not be necessarily always 0:07:47 on the top it might be the case that the 0:07:49 west has more fgm and mgm cases than it 0:07:52 wants to acknowledge but i believe that 0:07:53 based on that circle but based on the 0:07:55 way the the method of basically allowing 0:07:58 it for one culture and not allowing it 0:07:59 for another culture 0:08:01 that is an unfair sociological 0:08:03 comparison 0:08:04 what we need to what i need to clarify 0:08:07 here 0:08:08 um because you may have a more 0:08:10 understanding of this for me is you're 0:08:12 talking about in the muslim 0:08:14 culture 0:08:15 about fgm and you're also talking about 0:08:18 in another cultural paradise 0:08:21 another type of fdm so is it more 0:08:23 popular 0:08:24 in your culture or in the other culture 0:08:27 you're talking about because i haven't 0:08:28 looked into any of this i've just had my 0:08:30 own gender journey and i haven't talked 0:08:33 about muslim i talked about africa by 0:08:34 the way i talked about east africa and i 0:08:36 mentioned ethiopian muslims they don't 0:08:38 do oh they do ethiopia there's a lot of 0:08:40 ethiopian muslims somalian muslims lots 0:08:42 of egyptian muslims 0:08:43 have that done to them what do you have 0:08:45 fgm yeah you have so if you're a muslim 0:08:48 you can do everything no no that's what 0:08:49 i'm saying muslims do it 0:08:51 because i would think that's against 0:08:52 your god yeah so the prophet told us 0:08:54 don't do don't take away from it too 0:08:55 much like that he didn't actually tell 0:08:56 them because he wants you like whatever 0:08:58 he felt like 0:08:59 like the christians let me speak for a 0:09:01 little while 0:09:02 because i need to clarify because like 0:09:03 the muslims or the christians basically 0:09:07 within that within that context the 0:09:08 muslims and the christians wouldn't be 0:09:10 opposed because god wants everybody to 0:09:12 be either male or female then you can 0:09:15 even though we have people who have got 0:09:16 penis 0:09:17 and god created that to be honest with 0:09:19 you at the time of the prophet let me 0:09:20 tell you something you didn't know yeah 0:09:21 let me actually tell you something you 0:09:22 didn't know that my 0:09:24 understanding is 0:09:26 my understanding yeah but my 0:09:27 understanding of the bible is that god 0:09:29 created male and female and god wants 0:09:30 you to be in those two let me let me but 0:09:32 we live in a world where people are not 0:09:34 in those 0:09:37 to be honest with you right now i'm not 0:09:39 talking about that that's not my point 0:09:41 my point is really a sociological case 0:09:43 all i'm saying is that if you're going 0:09:44 to count as part of the sociological 0:09:46 statistics so can you just 0:09:59 why should it matter about who people 0:10:01 are why can't we just live together 0:10:04 no no no no i'm just be whoever this is 0:10:07 not my argument please 0:10:08 that's something that okay that's away 0:10:10 from what i'm talking about i'm just 0:10:12 saying 0:10:12 that i'm not sure if you've heard this 0:10:14 i'm not sure if you've been exposed to 0:10:15 this 0:10:16 muslims because basically fgm this whole 0:10:19 thing of and here i'm defining fgm in a 0:10:21 narrow way how am i defining it because 0:10:23 it's actually defined broadly about a 0:10:24 double h you know according to who 0:10:26 having a pearson a piercing in your 0:10:29 sorry in your vagina right that is 0:10:31 actually seen as fgm now i wonder how 0:10:33 many women in the west have piercings in 0:10:35 the vagina i promise you it's going to 0:10:36 be more than in the middle in the bible 0:10:38 anyways my friends so let's move on 0:10:41 i'm just saying 0:10:42 the point i'm making is when when for 0:10:44 example the west the post colonial west 0:10:47 with this white jacket on and telling 0:10:49 all the rest of the world and its 0:10:50 nations what to do and be and what to 0:10:51 believe all i'm saying is okay you want 0:10:53 to put your white jacket on and tell us 0:10:55 to be like yourself let's see if you 0:10:56 yourself are doing the right thing let's 0:10:58 see if you yourself are sticking by the 0:11:00 standard you're giving everyone else so 0:11:01 one of the things i have a problem with 0:11:03 is that the west with a white jacket and 0:11:05 telling everyone what to do the white 0:11:06 jacket meant to represent the white skin 0:11:08 and really this is a white superior 0:11:10 superiority movement this white white 0:11:12 west man telling okay look at these 0:11:14 africans these barbaric africans that 0:11:16 you put them onto a you know a national 0:11:17 geographic newspaper look at those black 0:11:19 people look at those african look at 0:11:20 those muslims look what they're doing 0:11:22 they're doing fgm and mgm but wait a 0:11:24 minute my point is how do you define fgm 0:11:27 fgm is the removal of a part of a whole 0:11:29 of a clitoris 0:11:30 for cultural political or religious 0:11:32 reasons yeah 0:11:33 if that is the wh 0:11:35 or organization definition which has 0:11:37 nothing to do with willingness or 0:11:38 non-willingness then in that case you 0:11:40 have to add into your sociological 0:11:42 statistics the amount of people that are 0:11:43 doing sex changes now i'm not saying 0:11:45 that look i'm not saying that okay my 0:11:47 argument today isn't okay they shouldn't 0:11:49 do a sex change if you're a liberal and 0:11:51 you're not and you're not confined to 0:11:52 any religious program do what you want 0:11:54 i'm not telling you to do anything in 0:11:55 particular if you're a liberal and 0:11:57 you're not confined to any particular 0:11:58 religious belief system it doesn't 0:12:00 matter what you do 0:12:02 as a muslim your argument is it's fine 0:12:05 for me to do whatever i want your guard 0:12:07 no no 0:12:08 no no hold on i'm saying if you are 0:12:11 regards would be disgusted about what 0:12:12 you do no no it wouldn't because what i 0:12:14 said is if you're a muslim you're only a 0:12:16 muslim is someone who submits their word 0:12:17 to god yeah no gods wouldn't want you to 0:12:19 be saying it's fine for me to do i'm not 0:12:21 saying 0:12:22 it's fine see now you're once again i 0:12:23 didn't say it's fine i said if you're 0:12:24 not muslim and you're not convinced of 0:12:26 islam do you understand this is what i'm 0:12:27 saying if you're not convinced of islam 0:12:29 in our religious is like indeed there's 0:12:31 no compulsion religion so someone like 0:12:33 yourself you're not convinced of islam 0:12:34 all right now you decided to do a sex 0:12:35 change do whatever you want to do in the 0:12:37 west i haven't got my it's not my 0:12:39 business what you do yeah so i'm not 0:12:40 saying that so you don't care for other 0:12:42 people other than yourself no i'm not 0:12:43 saying that i i'm here to actually 0:12:45 convince people of islam on one or on 0:12:47 one level but on the other level if they 0:12:48 don't accept it i can't force them to be 0:12:50 muslims do you understand so from that 0:12:52 but your guard whether it be christian 0:12:53 or muslim yeah teaches you to love 0:12:56 people regardless of whoever they are 0:12:59 and therefore we're careful people 0:13:00 that's why we talk to people like you 0:13:02 what do you mean people like me people 0:13:04 are homeless 0:13:18 going to hell unless you're christian so 0:13:20 now we're going we're moving we're still 0:13:21 going away from the other point the 0:13:23 point i'm today i want to get to you 0:13:26 the point i want to get to you today 0:13:28 yeah the point i'm trying to actually 0:13:29 make to you today 0:13:31 is look 0:13:32 there are certain standards that the 0:13:33 west has made for the rest of the world 0:13:35 is given to the rest of the world it's 0:13:36 telling africans to live a certain way 0:13:38 think what you're trying to say can i 0:13:39 shortcut you yes you're trying to say 0:13:41 that the western people 0:13:44 um i.e this country 0:13:46 is telling everybody else how to live 0:13:49 their life whereas poor muslims can't 0:13:50 say as much as the western people is 0:13:52 that what i'm trying to understand what 0:13:54 you're talking about is that the level 0:13:56 of your argument no poor muslims 0:13:58 everybody else is dictating no no that's 0:14:00 not the level of my argument my argument 0:14:02 is as follows 0:14:03 if the west can tell the rest what to do 0:14:06 based on its culture but the the west 0:14:09 god is in control of everything if 0:14:12 you're saying that west is controlling 0:14:13 let god be the judge at the end of days 0:14:16 okay that's what we believe in anyways 0:14:17 well exactly so what's your point my 0:14:20 point is listen 0:14:21 if you're you're small enough to think 0:14:24 that you're in superior or whatever and 0:14:27 everybody else is superior to you and 0:14:29 poor muslims because everybody else is 0:14:32 small 0:14:34 on the day of judgement god will be the 0:14:36 one who puts the superior into the 0:14:38 minority and bring up the minority to be 0:14:41 up to the heavenly standard my friend 0:14:43 okay uh i don't i actually agree with 0:14:46 you totally on there 0:14:47 so the ones who are the poorest in life 0:14:50 will become the richest and the ones who 0:14:51 think their noses are too big and they 0:14:53 don't even give to the poor would be the 0:14:56 ones that 0:14:57 are you christian yourself no okay but i 0:14:59 agree with what you just said i mean 0:15:01 sounds right on that note i agree with 0:15:02 you 0:15:03 i'm just making you think all right i'm 0:15:05 not saying anything at a time with a 0:15:06 profit by the way let me tell you 0:15:07 something that you didn't know but how 0:15:08 can you make me think i'm trying to 0:15:09 understand where you're going with these 0:15:15 where are you going as regards speaking 0:15:17 to me which is fine i love the fact 0:15:19 you're speaking to me because not many 0:15:20 people have got the card i wanted to 0:15:21 discuss discuss it but look another 0:15:23 point i wanted to move to is as follows 0:15:24 yeah but i personally i'm trying to work 0:15:26 out i've already said that anybody who 0:15:29 has this done to them against their will 0:15:32 that is totally wrong i'm not talking 0:15:33 about 0:15:35 or even with their will but therefore if 0:15:38 they're religious or if they're under a 0:15:40 culture they just because you're giving 0:15:43 me the picture where i've changed so 0:15:45 it's okay 0:15:48 you're giving me the picture where i've 0:15:49 changed my penis into a vagina you're 0:15:51 giving me a picture where somebody does 0:15:53 it in another country where they're 0:15:55 changing what god has given to them i'm 0:15:57 saying that's wrong what god has given 0:15:58 to them or what creation is given to 0:16:00 them whichever theory you come from and 0:16:02 change their vagina and don't create it 0:16:04 to a penis but create it for some other 0:16:07 scenario and you're asking me what i 0:16:09 think about that i personally find that 0:16:12 a bit difficult that somebody's check 0:16:14 that somebody's take taken their vagina 0:16:17 as a female and turned it not into 0:16:19 nothing 0:16:20 because of their culture 0:16:22 difficult but if that's what they've 0:16:24 done because of their culture then i 0:16:26 have to submit or say that that is their 0:16:29 will and that is their your controversy 0:16:31 and you're having an issue with that no 0:16:33 i'm not making sure that i think you're 0:16:34 right you're consistent here yeah you're 0:16:36 consistent but the west is not like you 0:16:39 so the west so what is the west side 0:16:41 when i say proponents of the west which 0:16:43 are let's say sometimes right wing 0:16:44 sometimes it's homophobic they will say 0:16:46 in one breath 0:16:47 that okay a person like yourself who's 0:16:50 had a sex change 0:16:51 that's absolutely fine it's culturally 0:16:52 acceptable let's accept it i'm not 0:16:54 saying anything that's that's the worst 0:16:55 that's liberalism it's in line with 0:16:56 liberalism okay and you're saying as a 0:16:58 muslim you don't agree with yourself 0:17:00 where you're coming from is that where 0:17:01 you're gonna say because i think that's 0:17:03 what you're going to say even though 0:17:04 you're struggling to say that you're 0:17:06 against me i'm happy for you to say 0:17:08 you're against you okay let me say 0:17:09 something 0:17:11 yeah there were people who had their 0:17:13 penises basically castrated yeah and 0:17:15 they lived aside the 0:17:18 muhammad did not treat them unkindly 0:17:20 sometimes he would take care of them so 0:17:22 the point is really it's not like what 0:17:23 you're making out to be as muslims we're 0:17:25 not here to go out let me find this 0:17:26 homosexual let me find this transgender 0:17:28 let me find this kind of fight let me 0:17:30 let me attack them 0:17:39 i haven't told you anything about what 0:17:40 you've done you put it up in defensive 0:17:41 mode i'm talking to you about a very 0:17:43 specific sociological reality i'm just 0:17:45 saying on the one hand the west defiance 0:17:48 or the world health organization 0:17:49 particularly which is one of the most 0:17:51 major institutions of the west and it's 0:17:53 not being rebuked to refute by anyone it 0:17:55 defines fgm and mgm as a removal of 0:17:57 genitalia 0:17:58 okay even partially or holy having said 0:18:01 that it allows it doesn't say anywhere 0:18:03 in the definition of w-h-o-o 0:18:06 or otherwise that has to be willing you 0:18:08 unwillingly if a woman in ethiopia 0:18:10 willingly does fgm or fgm on herself she 0:18:12 will be counted as one of those people 0:18:14 on this sociological statistics i'm 0:18:16 saying if you want to count her if she 0:18:17 willingly does it why don't we count 0:18:19 someone like yourself who willingly does 0:18:20 it as well it's absolutely the same 0:18:22 because if you're taking away your 0:18:24 genitalia then you're fulfilling exactly 0:18:26 the textbook definition of the w 0:18:28 organization now if you've got already 0:18:30 if you don't like that 0:18:32 you should change the definition or 0:18:33 reform it or ask them to reform it you 0:18:35 can put as part of the clause that 0:18:36 should be if only if it's done 0:18:38 unwillingly but that's not what the w h 0:18:40 o or the nhs or any of the major 0:18:42 institutions i've said they haven't put 0:18:44 as part of the clause that has got to be 0:18:45 willing or unwilling they haven't made 0:18:47 that distinction if someone if a woman 0:18:49 now from ethiopia goes out and she 0:18:51 decides for her own cultural reason i'm 0:18:53 not saying it's a religious reason 0:18:54 because there's nothing in any religion 0:18:56 i don't think that basically condones 0:18:58 this she decides to get rid of all of 0:19:00 her clitoris the whole of her clitoris 0:19:02 yeah and her libia as well yeah and 0:19:04 that's another thing 0:19:06 if she decides to do that she would be 0:19:08 counted by the sociological by by 0:19:10 sociologists as someone who has 0:19:12 performed fgm someone now goes from the 0:19:14 western world decides to sex change 0:19:16 decides to change from man to woman 0:19:17 woman to man they are not counted is 0:19:19 that fair 0:19:20 right so we need to cover slight ground 0:19:23 again 0:19:24 the purpose of the example you're giving 0:19:27 which is unlike mine because i've chosen 0:19:29 to go from one to the other you're 0:19:31 giving me an example of a woman who just 0:19:34 takes away her past and i need to still 0:19:37 try to understand the purpose in her 0:19:39 culture of her doing this so you're 0:19:42 saying to me she's doing it because she 0:19:45 doesn't want too well she wants to take 0:19:47 away her clitoris which basically means 0:19:49 to me she doesn't want sexual 0:19:51 functioning so 0:19:52 whatever she does or help whatever like 0:19:54 she she decides for whatever reason to 0:19:56 give her but how does she do that 0:19:57 herself just chocolate no not herself 0:19:59 she goes she gets her clinician just 0:20:00 like the way you did she goes she 0:20:01 decides for every reason she wants to 0:20:03 get rid of the entirety of her clitoris 0:20:05 yes is that something you accept as a 0:20:07 morally acceptable thing or do you 0:20:08 reject him so when you talk to me and 0:20:09 you say she's doing that can you please 0:20:12 say that she's gone to a clinic because 0:20:13 the way 0:20:14 the way you talk 0:20:16 the way you talk it's like she's doing 0:20:17 it herself 0:20:19 someone else is there let's say they're 0:20:21 trained they decide to get rid of her 0:20:23 clitoris for her so in these countries 0:20:24 they have gender clinics 0:20:26 yeah yeah well they have so the 0:20:28 countries are many because even in this 0:20:29 country 0:20:32 london is one of the only ones 0:20:34 and people oh genderqueer 0:20:37 i understand but you're talking about 0:20:39 some kind of um what you call it like uh 0:20:41 when you make up when you change the 0:20:43 apparatus of basically to make it look 0:20:45 like something else we're talking about 0:20:46 literally just chopping something taking 0:20:48 stuff cutting something away which can 0:20:50 sometimes lead to little for her husband 0:20:52 for example when she does this how does 0:20:54 it make the husband i don't care i i'm 0:20:57 not here to defend this position do you 0:20:58 get what i mean i'm just saying that 0:20:59 this happened let's say in the context 0:21:01 of someone who does it safely as well a 0:21:03 woman goes to a gender clinic because 0:21:05 she wants to and get rid of her clitoris 0:21:07 safely yeah is that something which is 0:21:10 counted as fgm if so why isn't also 0:21:13 uh transgendered what you call 0:21:14 operations why are they not counted 0:21:16 if they both fulfill the same criteria 0:21:19 according to the who well i i've 0:21:20 answered why 0:21:22 the world health organization as you 0:21:24 call it which would deal with all the 0:21:26 health statistics which i am aware of 0:21:28 but i don't know a lot about other 0:21:30 things to do with the wealth out but i 0:21:32 can't be accountable for what the world 0:21:34 health organization does against the 0:21:36 other organization you're saying but yes 0:21:38 i agree with you that like if we lived 0:21:41 in a world where it was fair or if 0:21:44 that's the right word because obviously 0:21:45 we don't live in a fair world 0:21:47 necessarily other than when we all go 0:21:49 upstairs 0:21:50 agreement here but when we're down here 0:21:53 obviously if we're living in a world 0:21:55 where statistics are not counted 0:21:57 properly where people are not being 0:22:00 counted for being whoever they are 0:22:02 whether that's male female from 0:22:05 normal purposes or unusual purposes then 0:22:08 obviously it's going to mean that the 0:22:10 statistics are going to be 0:22:12 unfair and in your context of if 0:22:14 somebody's doing it unfairly or again or 0:22:18 with their will or against their will 0:22:20 then obviously that's also going to 0:22:22 create unfair statistics 0:22:24 if fgm 0:22:26 or mgm is counted as the removal of 0:22:28 genitalia if that's what it's counted as 0:22:30 whether it's done willingly or 0:22:31 unwillingly should transgender 0:22:34 operations the like of which you've done 0:22:35 also be counted as fgm mdm 0:22:41 if you've done it willingly then 0:22:44 it's not abusive okay 0:22:48 the the idea of if somebody's done it 0:22:50 against either against i will or 0:22:53 just taking off their parts for the 0:22:55 purposes of 0:22:56 satisfying their husband or their 0:22:58 culture i don't agree with that but if 0:23:00 well their culture you just said culture 0:23:02 satisfying their husband or their 0:23:03 culture but western in western culture 0:23:05 we know that it's acceptable for someone 0:23:07 to change gender so that's actually a 0:23:09 cultural thing 0:23:10 but is it okay for the western cultural 0:23:12 paradigm to be accepted and the rest or 0:23:14 these backwards let's say i'm not saying 0:23:16 that i'm not justifying them doing this 0:23:18 by the way i'm saying it's wrong yeah 0:23:19 remembering the whole clitoris of that 0:23:21 way is wrong but i'm just saying that 0:23:23 the standard is not normal it's not a 0:23:24 normal standard okay so we need to go 0:23:26 slowly again please 0:23:28 right so we have a system where people 0:23:31 are doing it because of culture and 0:23:33 they're just cutting off their parts i 0:23:35 say that that is not right morally and 0:23:37 also 0:23:38 not right for my purposes 0:23:41 obviously i'm not the judge but i 0:23:42 believe that that's not right to do it 0:23:44 even if they're willing to do it 0:23:47 i believe if you're just cutting it off 0:23:49 and you're not creating it even if 0:23:50 you're doing it if you were doing it 0:23:52 willingly to become something else i 0:23:54 believe that's okay but if you're doing 0:23:55 it willingly 0:23:58 to have nothing 0:23:59 or if you're just being 0:24:01 that's not fair that's not fair i'm 0:24:04 sorry that's not fair but you just said 0:24:05 there's nothing i'm saying do you know 0:24:07 why that's not fair i'm saying because 0:24:08 you're dictating the terms of liberalism 0:24:10 that's actually against liberalism 0:24:11 liberalism is you do whatever you want 0:24:13 so long as you don't harm anyone else 0:24:15 which means if someone wants to get rid 0:24:16 of their clitoris for whatever reason 0:24:18 maybe they wake up in the morning and 0:24:19 say you know what i don't like where 0:24:20 this looks they want to get rid of it 0:24:21 yeah is that their justification but for 0:24:23 cultural reason if so long as they're 0:24:25 doing it willingly according to 0:24:26 liberalism fgm is actually an acceptable 0:24:29 resource 0:24:34 if changing your gender is acceptable 0:24:36 then fgm willingly done is also 0:24:38 acceptable and if not why not 0:24:41 it's incredible as i just said we need 0:24:43 to go slowly okay i i'm in a country 0:24:47 where 0:24:48 as you've said and you have this is why 0:24:50 i'm saying we need to try to educate 0:24:52 each other and understand each other in 0:24:54 this country is legal if you choose to 0:24:57 do it like i've gone and i've chosen i'm 0:24:58 not saying by the way i'm not attacking 0:24:59 you i know you're attacking me 0:25:02 okay so i've done it willingly and i've 0:25:04 chosen to go and do it and it's legal in 0:25:06 this country you may disagree with it 0:25:09 but the fact is legal and the fact i've 0:25:11 chosen to do it and the fact that's the 0:25:12 way i feel better because i didn't want 0:25:14 to be raped brian anymore so there were 0:25:16 purposes and reasons other than gender 0:25:19 dysphoria or male and female issues by 0:25:22 the way i'm not attacking you or your 0:25:23 personal like self and you're sorry i 0:25:25 really really leave that to you yeah i'm 0:25:28 just talking very specifically about the 0:25:30 issue of double standards yeah no but 0:25:32 you can't talk to me and not expect you 0:25:34 talking to me who you know 0:25:36 do you agree with me 0:25:37 i'm saying that in this country and in 0:25:40 other places around europe it is legal 0:25:43 to have a sex change you're talking 0:25:46 about countries where it is either 0:25:48 illegal or people do it for 0:25:51 other reasons other than feeling good 0:25:53 about the reasons why they're doing it 0:25:56 that's my interpretation of what you're 0:25:57 saying for example 0:25:59 i've done it because i chose to do it 0:26:01 you're talking about examples 0:26:03 where people are in countries where 0:26:06 they're doing it for 0:26:08 strange reasons for me for me i don't 0:26:10 see a reason why a lovely girl 0:26:13 should take away her vagina someone 0:26:15 could say the same thing about a man 0:26:16 taking away his penis 0:26:18 yeah but the man taking away his penis 0:26:20 and becoming a woman is a different it 0:26:22 is a different thing than a woman 0:26:26 they're both doing it willingly 0:26:27 okay well if they're both as i said to 0:26:29 you that my feeling is a little bit 0:26:32 double on the one hand if it's willy 0:26:35 then yes i agree 0:26:36 that if she's done it willingly and in 0:26:38 her culture then that is okay 0:26:41 i mean then on the other hand i think on 0:26:43 the other hand i have a slight issue 0:26:45 with the fact that she's done it and 0:26:46 she's taken away that's no problem 0:26:49 i didn't want to attack you today 0:26:51 i told you that i'm muslim you don't 0:26:52 really want to talk about religion so 0:26:53 i'll discuss this with you right here 0:26:55 i'm going to tell you that despite the 0:26:56 fact that you've done what you've done 0:26:57 to yourself 0:26:59 i mean let me be straightforward with 0:27:01 you at the time of the prophet muhammad 0:27:03 people who had done the same thing 0:27:05 you're probably going to be really 0:27:06 religious and tell me i'm going to hell 0:27:08 or something yeah okay well you'd be 0:27:09 surprised yeah people that had done that 0:27:12 the same thing like at that time there 0:27:13 was castration methods yeah 0:27:15 there were people who actually had done 0:27:17 that 0:27:18 that had castrated themselves for 0:27:19 whatever reason like they had their own 0:27:20 cultural reason for doing it at that 0:27:21 time 0:27:25 he treated them well 0:27:27 he spoke to them with kindness he didn't 0:27:28 treat them badly he did like he spoke to 0:27:30 them just as anyone 0:27:32 so hey i'm not i'm not trying to condemn 0:27:34 you and i don't want you to take from 0:27:35 what i'm speaking to you right now that 0:27:36 i'm attacking you as a person i'm not 0:27:38 doing that because that wouldn't be 0:27:39 following the prophet uh muhammad what 0:27:41 you call example 0:27:43 these individuals by the way the 0:27:44 scholars of islam they even debated like 0:27:46 you know how women will put on the 0:27:47 headscarf 0:27:49 sam's kind of debated okay should a 0:27:50 woman wear a headscarf in front of these 0:27:52 guys or not 0:27:53 because you know what i mean some we 0:27:55 have discussions about this in islamic 0:27:57 jewish buildings the point i'm making to 0:27:58 you simple yeah 0:28:00 is it's nothing to do with you your 0:28:02 decision 0:28:03 because you can take this what you've 0:28:04 done doesn't prevent you from being 0:28:05 let's say a muslim if you wanted to if 0:28:07 you want to do in the future let's say 0:28:08 okay i want to be a muslim in the future 0:28:10 what you've done in terms of your thing 0:28:12 it doesn't prevent you from being in the 0:28:14 future that's point one point two 0:28:16 i wasn't making an attack on you as a 0:28:18 person i know you've gone through some 0:28:19 very tough things if it was me i don't 0:28:20 know what i would have done you know 0:28:21 what i'm saying 0:28:22 that's number two 0:28:23 my friend 0:28:25 number three i was just saying generally 0:28:27 there's a double standard in terms of 0:28:28 the way the west operates and the way it 0:28:30 conceptualizes different practices 0:28:32 and i showed that by showing that okay 0:28:34 if someone is willingly removing their 0:28:36 clitoris clitoris or the labia that 0:28:38 would be classed as fgm but if someone 0:28:40 is willingly changing from male to 0:28:41 female female to now that's not classed 0:28:43 as fgm although it entails exactly the 0:28:45 same method i believe the debate on fgm 0:28:47 therefore has to take a new shift the 0:28:49 debate on fgm has to take into 0:28:51 consideration willingness and 0:28:52 non-willingness and it has to also be 0:28:54 fair to the biological standard that 0:28:56 except for itself according to who 0:28:58 that's my book okay can i say that for 0:29:01 my purpose for my purposes i thought 0:29:04 for my purposes i thought that 0:29:08 for my fault i thought the purpose is 0:29:10 for my 0:29:20 doing it unwillingly was against the law 0:29:23 and doing it willingly was 0:29:26 was not against the law 0:29:29 so 0:29:30 i don't really i i agree with you that 0:29:32 if somebody willingly wants to do it 0:29:34 then they should so really they should 0:29:36 redefine fgm the west has to now 0:29:38 redefine fgm so that it doesn't have 0:29:41 as part of its definition people like 0:29:43 yourself yeah 0:29:45 being actually someone who's not fgm mgm 0:29:47 but not counted as a statistics 0:29:49 it has to redefine it and include 0:29:52 willingness and non-willingness that's 0:29:53 what it has to do 0:29:54 and if not then it's it's a 0:29:55 contradiction and it's a false way of 0:29:58 uh sociologically collating data and 0:30:00 misrepresenting certain nations are you 0:30:02 saying that they put the people like me 0:30:04 with the people who have had 0:30:06 they don't 0:30:09 i'm saying that 0:30:11 because in their definitions willingness 0:30:13 and non-willingness is not included 0:30:14 therefore they should 0:30:16 well i thought the fgm was basically 0:30:18 people who did it 0:30:20 unwillingly so that's how it's classed 0:30:21 as f 0:30:23 as it's 0:30:24 mutilation whereas i haven't mutilated 0:30:27 i've done it willingly whereas if 0:30:28 somebody does mutilate somebody in 0:30:30 another country chop off their whatever 0:30:33 like they used to crucify jesus or do 0:30:35 heinous crimes then this is against the 0:30:38 person's will therefore that should be 0:30:40 illegal okay regardless okay 0:30:42 let's define it as regards the as 0:30:45 regards the claim or the scenario of you 0:30:47 saying that somebody in sudan right now 0:30:50 for example 0:30:51 is castrating themselves willingly 0:30:54 um is a matter i would need to think 0:30:56 about a bit more clearly but for my 0:30:58 purposes definitely i have the right to 0:31:00 have a sex change and the person who is 0:31:05 having that done to them like jesus did 0:31:07 on the cross or whatever or being 0:31:09 castrated for horrible purposes is 0:31:12 obviously against the lord totally again 0:31:14 we don't believe that jesus christ 0:31:16 thank you very much 0:31:24 okay 0:31:37 you

Transgender Debates Muslim on FGM!! (2017-05-11) ​

Summary of Transgender Debates Muslim on FGM!! ​

00:00:00 [00:30:00 ​

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Transgender Debates Muslim on FGM!! (2017-05-11)

Summary of Transgender Debates Muslim on FGM!!

00:00:00 [00:30:00