Dr Al-Massari: The Creation Story - Quran vs Bible - 1 (2021-12-06) ​

0:00:00 Music
0:00:32 as i suggested to you uh earlier today
0:00:35 actually
0:00:36 uh the the two the two issues over the
0:00:39 one about the creation of man and the
0:00:42 dispute between creationism and and
0:00:45 evolution and so on we did discuss some
0:00:47 aspects there but i don't think we we
0:00:50 did not tidy it up completely and then
0:00:52 also the trinity we just advanced maybe
0:00:55 a third of the distance and we did not
0:00:58 tidy it up yet so
0:01:01 i thought maybe we would go for it
0:01:02 because we did the evolution first and i
0:01:05 i got the three first chapters of
0:01:08 genesis
0:01:09 so we can go through them and also the
0:01:11 relevant ayah in the quran and try to
0:01:13 to discuss
0:01:15 the various aspects and see
0:01:17 uh see what can be said about that and
0:01:20 how much
0:01:21 how much
0:01:24 the issue can be clarified or settled
0:01:26 both in genesis and in the quran okay
0:01:30 so um
0:01:32 i think the best and most reasonable
0:01:34 approach is to
0:01:35 uh should we start with genesis maybe
0:01:37 that's a good idea just reading i i have
0:01:40 both a version in the young literal
0:01:41 translation
0:01:43 which is that he removed in english but
0:01:45 also the
0:01:46 other the american what is called the
0:01:47 american
0:01:48 standard translation which is also i
0:01:50 think essentially in modern english a
0:01:53 little bit some some of shakespearean
0:01:55 english
0:01:56 but
0:01:57 it is not extreme so it can be
0:01:59 we can't follow it easily
0:02:01 okay
0:02:04 do you want to start reading
0:02:08 i think starting with
0:02:10 is a great idea yeah
0:02:12 genesis yeah
0:02:14 actually the first chapter is there's
0:02:16 nothing here to comment very much except
0:02:18 few the last verses but maybe you read
0:02:21 through them i have the the extracts
0:02:23 here in ns file with me and they'll put
0:02:25 it also for
0:02:27 uh
0:02:28 relax
0:02:29 but let us let us maybe read that the
0:02:31 whole chapter is it makes better sense
0:02:33 the one that you said first in words or
0:02:35 the file
0:02:37 one two three it is called bc abc01 and
0:02:41 this is etcetera and one chapter one two
0:02:44 or three or only in chapter one verse
0:02:46 twenty four right
0:02:48 just four thirty one i would say just
0:02:50 just read maybe genesis itself if you
0:02:52 have you have the html or they want to
0:02:54 read only the verses 24 and 25. no no we
0:02:57 need it all we read it all
0:03:00 so we we we see it how if it can be done
0:03:04 if there's anything really fundamentally
0:03:06 which which which file b01 c01 this one
0:03:11 is yeah zero one zero one zero two zero
0:03:13 three
0:03:14 it's all of them are then book one and
0:03:17 then the second number is the is the is
0:03:20 the chapter number okay so remember take
0:03:22 them all out open them the one two and
0:03:24 three and starting
0:03:26 which one which one you prefer the
0:03:28 standard american one or the little the
0:03:30 young literal translation a young
0:03:32 literal is okay open young literate one
0:03:35 oh yeah it's either either one
0:03:38 okay sometimes i feel inclined to the
0:03:40 young little that's maybe better
0:03:43 okay
0:03:44 um
0:03:49 it says uh in the beginning of
0:03:52 in the beginning of god's preparing uh
0:03:54 the heavens and the earth
0:03:56 uh the
0:03:57 earth has
0:03:58 existed waste and void
0:04:00 and darkness is on the face of the deep
0:04:03 and the spirit of god fluttering on the
0:04:04 face of the waters
0:04:06 and god saith let light be and light is
0:04:09 and god seeth the light
0:04:11 that it is good and god separated
0:04:15 uh between the light and the darkness
0:04:18 and god calleth
0:04:20 to the light uh day into the darkness he
0:04:23 had called night
0:04:25 and there is an evening and there is a
0:04:27 morning day one and god save let an
0:04:29 expanse be in the midst of the waters
0:04:31 and let it be separated between waters
0:04:33 and waters
0:04:34 and god maketh the expand expanse and
0:04:38 separate death
0:04:39 between the waters which are under the
0:04:42 expanse
0:04:43 the waters which are above the expanse
0:04:45 and it is so
0:04:46 in god calleth to the expanse
0:04:49 heavens and there is an evening and
0:04:51 there is a morning day second
0:04:53 god saith
0:04:55 let the waters under the heavens be
0:04:57 collected unto one place
0:04:59 and let the dry land be seen and it is
0:05:02 so
0:05:03 and god calleth to the dry land earth
0:05:06 and to the collection of what the waters
0:05:08 he called he hath called seas
0:05:10 and god seeth that it is good and god
0:05:13 saith let the earth yield tender grass
0:05:17 herb sowing seed fruit tree whose seed
0:05:20 is in itself
0:05:21 making fruit after its kind on the earth
0:05:23 and it is so
0:05:25 and the earth bringeth forth
0:05:27 tender grass herb sowing seed after its
0:05:30 kind
0:05:31 and tree making fruit whose seed is in
0:05:34 itself after its kind and god seeth that
0:05:37 it is good
0:05:39 and there is an evening and there is a
0:05:40 morning day third
0:05:41 and god said let luminaries be in the
0:05:44 expanse of the heavens to make a
0:05:45 separation between day and night
0:05:47 then they have been for signs and for
0:05:50 seasons and for days and years and they
0:05:51 have been for illumina luminaries
0:05:54 in the expanse of heavens to give light
0:05:56 upon the earth and it is so and god
0:05:58 maketh two great luminaries and the
0:06:00 great luminary for the rule of the day
0:06:02 and the small luminary and the stars for
0:06:04 the rule of the night and god giveth
0:06:06 them in the expanse of the heavens to
0:06:08 give light upon the earth
0:06:10 and to rule over day and overnight and
0:06:12 to make a separation between the light
0:06:14 and the darkness and god see it that it
0:06:16 is good and there's an evening and
0:06:18 there's a morning a day forth and god
0:06:20 said let the waters team with the
0:06:22 teeming life creature a teeming living
0:06:24 creature and fowl let fly on the earth
0:06:28 on the face of the expanse of the
0:06:30 heavens
0:06:31 and
0:06:32 uh
0:06:33 and
0:06:34 god pre-prepareth
0:06:36 great monsters in every living creature
0:06:38 that is creeping which the waters have
0:06:40 teamed with
0:06:41 and after their kind every fowl with
0:06:43 wing and after its kind and god seeth
0:06:45 that it is good
0:06:47 and god beseeth them saying be fruitful
0:06:49 and multiply and fill the waters in the
0:06:51 seas and let fowl and the fowl let
0:06:53 multiply in the earth
0:06:55 and there is an evening and there is a
0:06:56 morning a day fifth and god save let the
0:06:58 earth bring forth
0:07:00 a living creature after its kind cattle
0:07:02 and creeping thing
0:07:04 and beast of the earth after its kind
0:07:06 and it is so
0:07:07 god maketh the beast of the earth after
0:07:09 its kind and the cattle after its kind
0:07:11 and every creeping thing
0:07:13 of the ground after its kind and god
0:07:14 seeth that it is good
0:07:16 and god saith let us make man in our
0:07:19 image according to our likeness and let
0:07:21 them rule over fish of the sea and over
0:07:24 fowl of the heavens
0:07:25 and over cattle and over all the earth
0:07:28 and over every creeping thing that is
0:07:30 creeping on the earth
0:07:31 and god prepareth the man in his image
0:07:34 in the image of god he prepared him a
0:07:36 male and a female he prepared them and
0:07:38 god beseth them and god saith to them be
0:07:41 fruitful and multiply and fill the earth
0:07:43 and subdue it
0:07:44 and rule over the fish of the sea and
0:07:46 over fowl of the heavens and over
0:07:48 everything that is creeping upon the
0:07:50 earth
0:07:52 and god saith lo i have given to you
0:07:54 every herb sowing seed which is upon the
0:07:56 face of the earth and every tree in
0:07:58 which is the fruit of a tree sowing seed
0:08:01 and to you it is for food
0:08:04 and to every beast of the earth and to
0:08:05 every fowl of the heavens to every
0:08:07 creeping thing on earth in which is
0:08:10 breath of life every green herb is for
0:08:13 food and it is so
0:08:14 and god seeth
0:08:16 all that he has done and lo very good
0:08:19 and there is an evening and there is a
0:08:20 morning day the sixth yeah so
0:08:23 um
0:08:26 it's clear that the the creation of adam
0:08:28 especially in the sixth day that's what
0:08:30 uh according to this narrative
0:08:33 from from the verses 24 until
0:08:36 31 is in summary generally
0:08:39 not very much can be objected to that in
0:08:41 compare comparing what we know to be
0:08:43 well established from from geology from
0:08:46 science from accumulated evidences but
0:08:48 obviously the the previous part about
0:08:51 the creation of heavens and earth and
0:08:53 inspiration of light and dark and all
0:08:55 these things as
0:08:57 someone could say it could be given some
0:09:00 sense metaphorically but any any attempt
0:09:03 to synchronize it with with the real
0:09:05 creation of the universe is simply uh
0:09:08 futile
0:09:09 so we could say it is
0:09:11 i would say there may be have been some
0:09:13 elements there given by the prophets the
0:09:16 ancient prophets maybe from time abraham
0:09:18 and so on because this is genesis
0:09:20 supposed to be attributed officially to
0:09:23 musa but
0:09:25 unlikely it is
0:09:26 the current engine our hand is
0:09:28 differently unedited and composed on
0:09:30 various documents as literary critics
0:09:32 have been shown and also the
0:09:34 the various expositions do not fit
0:09:36 together 100 like if we go to the
0:09:38 details of the creation of of man in the
0:09:41 next two chapters we see that it doesn't
0:09:44 fit with with the with this uh
0:09:46 quick summary except by
0:09:49 in in best at as a matter of best will
0:09:51 we say maybe the
0:09:53 verses from 24 to 29 or there to
0:09:57 31
0:09:58 are just a summary and then it is the
0:10:00 more details are given in in the second
0:10:03 and third chapter
0:10:05 someone could if by by some by by if we
0:10:09 are exercised best will
0:10:11 but the previous part of the creation of
0:10:13 heavens and anything all this is clearly
0:10:15 uh does not fit any cosmological or any
0:10:18 geological uh narrative which we have or
0:10:22 and some of it is established now with
0:10:24 the us attitude like
0:10:26 the creation of the universe that they
0:10:28 have and the sun has wanna quietly that
0:10:30 obviously the two lights the sun and the
0:10:32 moon are definitely
0:10:35 ahead at least the sun ahead of the
0:10:37 existence of the earth
0:10:39 uh the moon may be quaran
0:10:42 does the quran not give a similar
0:10:43 narrative
0:10:45 no well no it doesn't give any any
0:10:47 similar narratives it doesn't give us
0:10:51 six six days
0:10:53 just six days doesn't mention any
0:10:55 details of the six days and so on in six
0:10:57 days without going into these
0:10:59 subdivisions and so on what the six days
0:11:01 may be phases of creation uh they are
0:11:04 not eligible if there's one or two
0:11:05 hadith but even the classical scholars
0:11:07 have objected to them that they because
0:11:09 they look very similar to this narrative
0:11:11 and
0:11:12 it's only from abhorrent
0:11:14 is known to be a body of kabbalah who is
0:11:17 a converted jew
0:11:19 and he was sitting with him quite
0:11:21 frequently and obviously they were
0:11:23 chatting about what's in the old
0:11:24 testament and so on and up to the
0:11:26 knowledge of the time he may have he may
0:11:28 have heard stories for him and details
0:11:31 which he thought he had from the prophet
0:11:33 because there's no other
0:11:35 companion narrating from the prophet the
0:11:37 same the same story that's the one in
0:11:39 muslim worship it says the prophet
0:11:41 hassam was holding my hand and he was uh
0:11:44 counting on my finger day once once on
0:11:46 day two day three therefore but even
0:11:48 already the classical scholars objected
0:11:50 to that clearly for various reasons
0:11:54 Music
0:12:01 uh maybe to help
0:12:03 um explain the use
0:12:05 of the word
0:12:06 elohim translated as god and the young's
0:12:08 literal
0:12:10 uh yeah but
0:12:13 there's
0:12:14 i i wouldn't comment very much of that
0:12:16 because
0:12:17 or elohim you mean because it's in a
0:12:19 plural form
0:12:21 right is this for me there might be some
0:12:23 some confusion about
0:12:25 all of the hebrew words uh translated as
0:12:28 god in the young's literal which is like
0:12:30 uh yahweh
0:12:33 yeah el
0:12:34 elohim eloah yeah but how said in the
0:12:38 american one check the american one
0:12:41 check the american translation
0:12:44 is is it is the original saying elohim
0:12:49 yeah i i have a copy of the torah i'm
0:12:52 looking at it right now and it says uh i
0:12:54 think it says elohim
0:12:56 in every case through chapter one i'm
0:12:59 pretty sure
0:13:01 check it double check it i think in some
0:13:02 places it says yahuwah
0:13:05 oh does it uh which verse
0:13:07 i don't remember now but
0:13:09 then it is okay it's double checking it
0:13:12 i know i i i i wouldn't i wouldn't
0:13:15 comment on that because i i think you
0:13:17 are hinting maybe you're going to hint
0:13:18 that that's there's some kind of a
0:13:20 prehint of the trinity or something like
0:13:22 that
0:13:24 we may discuss that but but there's
0:13:26 there is
0:13:29 this is not not a very compelling
0:13:31 argument for that anyway but
0:13:33 that had to use in the plural
0:13:36 elohim
0:13:38 it's a it's very interesting but uh in
0:13:41 some places yahweh in some places the
0:13:43 elohim maybe in the first chapter
0:13:45 of genesis
0:13:47 but i don't have very much i don't have
0:13:49 very much to comment on that until we
0:13:51 synchronize all the various chapters on
0:13:52 the various places
0:13:54 okay i i just wanted to point that out
0:13:56 um
0:13:57 i'm actually not a trinitarian i
0:13:59 explained this to the other moderators
0:14:01 before you joined me uh no no problem no
0:14:03 i have no problem with that now i'm
0:14:04 saying just yes because uh anyway uh
0:14:08 illah and elohim
0:14:10 uh is is an ancient obviously uh semitic
0:14:13 world which in ancient time essentially
0:14:16 it means
0:14:17 it means it means like
0:14:20 essentially the same meaning like lord
0:14:21 it did not acquire the meaning of illah
0:14:24 or god
0:14:25 in the sense of a creator or
0:14:27 supernatural being that much it was more
0:14:29 like for example in in addressing musa
0:14:33 that i will be your illah and you will
0:14:35 be the allah of harold me with the the
0:14:37 master or the leader or something like
0:14:39 that
0:14:39 obviously
0:14:40 the relation of god to moses is not like
0:14:42 musa or harun but linguistically the
0:14:45 word
0:14:47 is used as as i have seen in the arabic
0:14:49 translation i have that translation
0:14:50 discussed in another place in another
0:14:52 context completely about the root of the
0:14:54 word illah and elohim and the ill and
0:14:57 elohim and the various names like
0:15:00 like uh israel uh
0:15:02 uh
0:15:03 et cetera and this which is meaning
0:15:07 and yeah the
0:15:09 the translation i like for elohim is uh
0:15:11 mighty ones i'm not sure if you heard
0:15:13 that one before yeah yeah that's that's
0:15:14 that's
0:15:15 it
0:15:16 it may be this is this uh this may
0:15:19 gain support from when when uh musa was
0:15:21 discussing
0:15:23 with god
0:15:24 what should they tell the people who
0:15:25 called me who are you what's your name
0:15:28 he said i was i was known to your your
0:15:31 your forefathers or to your your
0:15:33 grandfather's
0:15:35 the ancient
0:15:36 the the patriarchs
0:15:42 the strong god
0:15:44 so that's maybe that because this will
0:15:46 distinguish it from the pagan gods which
0:15:47 are not a strong god so just just some
0:15:50 kind of
0:15:51 of angels or sons of gods or some kind
0:15:53 of of uh half gods or things like that
0:15:57 so this this may be mighty goddess is
0:15:59 not is not a bad idea or the god of gods
0:16:01 it may be an abbreviation elohim
0:16:04 sometimes in in the semitic languages
0:16:07 you use the plural for certain
0:16:08 functionality like
0:16:09 the head of the tribe
0:16:11 the
0:16:12 the head of a tribal association
0:16:15 and they drop the shaykh
0:16:18 the elders
0:16:20 meaning the elder of the elders or the
0:16:21 sheikh of the or the senator of the
0:16:23 senate because sheikh is a senator the
0:16:25 senator of the senators may be the top
0:16:28 sheikh because usually
0:16:29 big tribes are made of tribal
0:16:31 association five six seven eight ten
0:16:33 tribes each one has its own senator
0:16:35 senate or elder and there's a good
0:16:37 translation actually that's also used
0:16:39 which is the which is usually used in
0:16:41 the church for the elderly who are we
0:16:44 are who have become formerly bishops
0:16:45 later
0:16:46 and this is under the top elder
0:16:49 the elder of the elders so it could be
0:16:51 it could be an abridged version of
0:16:53 elohim
0:16:56 the real lord of the lords
0:16:58 the supreme lord or something or the
0:17:00 mighty god
0:17:01 yeah
0:17:02 okay but it could be like
0:17:04 uh the mighty one of mighty ones or
0:17:06 something yeah something like that could
0:17:08 be possibly yeah
0:17:09 thank you so much for cancer yeah
0:17:12 but
0:17:12 it's worth is worth doing more and more
0:17:14 work in that direction from the
0:17:16 linguistic point of view and taking to
0:17:19 help other semitic languages including
0:17:21 arabic so if you if you look in various
0:17:23 semantic languages at the same time you
0:17:25 you get good insights and many things
0:17:27 which may have been for a long time
0:17:29 quite dark like for example yahuwah
0:17:33 it seems to be
0:17:34 in arabic it's very close i i am the one
0:17:36 who is he i am the one who exists
0:17:39 by necessity
0:17:42 the best the best you could you could
0:17:44 express in in a language to people of
0:17:46 the cultural level and philosophical
0:17:48 sophistication level at the time of musa
0:17:51 at the time you wouldn't be able to see
0:17:53 it necessarily existing and indulging
0:17:55 they can't explore that's out of
0:17:57 question so use the language which is
0:17:59 bring things uh
0:18:01 it's that every person can understand
0:18:04 even the simplest person and at the same
0:18:06 time it has sufficient
0:18:08 philosophical depth for the philosoph to
0:18:11 go deeper but it's a and and some even
0:18:14 the skates in islam used for example
0:18:16 when they do dikkar with the divine
0:18:17 remembrance uh instead for glorious god
0:18:20 subhan allah prays to god they say
0:18:22 yahuwah
0:18:23 the one who is the one who is the one
0:18:25 who is as mentioned yeah
0:18:28 the translation i like for uh
0:18:31 is uh he will be hey yeah exactly who
0:18:34 will be who exists
0:18:36 by necessary by necessity whose
0:18:38 existence is not but conditioned by any
0:18:40 other beings is
0:18:42 intrinsically necessary
0:18:44 so that's yes
0:18:45 i uh i i wasn't trying to push the
0:18:48 trinity i just want because i i
0:18:49 personally i don't believe in it i just
0:18:51 was trying to bring out
0:18:53 the fact that the english translation by
0:18:56 using god it conceals the names and
0:18:58 titles of
0:19:00 yahoo or the divine being that's true
0:19:02 because
0:19:04 european languages especially english
0:19:06 and so on are relatively poor in divine
0:19:09 names while
0:19:10 semitic languages because we have
0:19:12 ancient prophets and so on and they have
0:19:14 given the divine being
0:19:16 many attributes are named are much
0:19:17 richer in this this regard that's clear
0:19:20 that's very clear even in these things
0:19:22 which are related to like for example
0:19:24 yahoo and so on it's very difficult to
0:19:26 construct something in english similar
0:19:28 it will sound odd people do not
0:19:30 understand because these languages
0:19:32 emerged essentially in
0:19:34 very low level of paganisms and they
0:19:36 took the shape there so the concepts are
0:19:38 coming from that time
0:19:40 so you need to do some philosophical
0:19:42 effort or
0:19:43 reconstruct or construct things uh to
0:19:46 get to get there
0:19:48 to get to the same level
0:19:50 the version i'm using is the uh
0:19:53 uh complete jewish bible i'm not sure if
0:19:54 you've heard of that
0:19:56 uh which one um
0:19:57 complete jewish bible uh cjb uh
0:20:00 unfortunately i didn't hear about that
0:20:01 is there's if you can give lux or the
0:20:04 brothers any link or some place to
0:20:06 download it or to attend it if it's
0:20:08 downloadable or maybe a database like
0:20:11 like the american one and the little
0:20:13 young literal are available as html and
0:20:15 also database
0:20:17 um if you go to biblegateway.com you can
0:20:20 look up the cjb for free okay
0:20:23 biblegate um okay write write it down
0:20:26 so we don't forget it biblegate.com okay
0:20:28 perfect
0:20:30 when you don't like updates with the cg
0:20:33 b
0:20:35 it's called cjb okay
0:20:39 i i have this i have the study version
0:20:41 of the bible
0:20:42 and it has a note on elohim it says i
0:20:45 wanted to get your insight on it it says
0:20:47 the root meaning of the word is unknown
0:20:49 the most probable theory is that it may
0:20:51 be connected with the old arabic verb
0:20:55 a l i h
0:20:57 a l i h to be perfect
0:21:00 to seek refuge because of fear
0:21:02 uh
0:21:03 actually i i would say no i think i i
0:21:06 don't think they they did the homework
0:21:08 in this very well i think it's it's it's
0:21:10 it's coming from ill which means a deity
0:21:13 or god or in in the ancient language it
0:21:16 is uh that the best thing is to which
0:21:18 illuminates that is to to see the
0:21:20 discussion between allah and musa in god
0:21:23 and musa in in mount sinai who are you
0:21:26 what should they tell the people what's
0:21:27 your name i tell the people
0:21:37 i think the hebrew bible would be better
0:21:39 to be checked for that
0:21:41 and then
0:21:43 within time
0:21:44 slowly it developed that that ill became
0:21:48 ill with al is there is a singular ill
0:21:50 is is the the definite article the ill
0:21:54 the god because they were many gods was
0:21:57 it would be in english written the only
0:21:58 way to do it in english is right go to
0:22:00 the capital g the one the god
0:22:03 and then slowly it developed until in
0:22:05 the time of isa roughly
0:22:08 or around that maybe before that
0:22:10 it became it becomes joined as one word
0:22:13 allah
0:22:14 so we we we
0:22:16 see that in in
0:22:18 in
0:22:18 western aramaic or syriac
0:22:21 in in in bibles and other words
0:22:24 that the divine being is
0:22:26 mentioned as allah in arabic is allah so
0:22:29 al-ilah
0:22:30 has difficult uh developed further into
0:22:33 al-ilah
0:22:34 allah allah until it became allah became
0:22:36 like joined like it became like a
0:22:38 personal name
0:22:39 it has been
0:22:40 a problem what they call it uh what we
0:22:42 call it in a in in in the linguist in in
0:22:45 the language theory if we get two words
0:22:47 and merge them together and drop some
0:22:49 letters and it becomes like joined fixed
0:22:51 like a new word
0:22:53 like merging them together
0:22:55 okay thank you so much it seems to be
0:22:58 that that's the best i think that other
0:22:59 one is is is not a very satisfactory
0:23:02 explanation it doesn't give also justice
0:23:04 to the dialogue in mount sinai
0:23:07 but i probably the problem with some
0:23:08 modern scholarship let me mention that
0:23:10 this as if i know is that
0:23:13 they started
0:23:14 initially
0:23:16 there was some critical reading of the
0:23:18 scripture and they're
0:23:19 trying to understand them as literally
0:23:21 work okay that's no problem but then
0:23:24 there came a phase where the people
0:23:26 completely
0:23:28 as assumed to to start with that they
0:23:31 are essentially
0:23:34 legendary stories and mythical they have
0:23:36 no historical background they have no uh
0:23:38 reliability uh all what we can be said
0:23:41 is that they maybe have been written two
0:23:43 centuries before christ or something
0:23:44 like that and that's the father she can
0:23:46 go back and anything before that is is
0:23:49 is assumed or or
0:23:51 started with as as being
0:23:53 as being fabricated and imaginary and
0:23:55 mythical stories
0:23:57 which obviously denied the historic fact
0:23:59 that the israelites were certain in
0:24:02 palestine for over a thousand years
0:24:04 they have scholarship actually they have
0:24:06 scholarship and they they took care of
0:24:08 educating their own children from the
0:24:10 time of yakub you may know that one of
0:24:12 the
0:24:13 usuals uh comment about the about yakub
0:24:17 that why he was superior to his brother
0:24:20 isau
0:24:21 is because he has two tenths one tenth
0:24:22 was used as a school for the children so
0:24:24 they were quite literate from early time
0:24:28 according to the level of the time not
0:24:30 not like in our time where we have
0:24:31 public school and all of that it was not
0:24:33 that sophisticated but they were and
0:24:35 even in egypt
0:24:37 all indication indicate that the
0:24:38 israelite was was in some sense or
0:24:40 another literate that's number one
0:24:42 secondly
0:24:44 uh musa seems to be literate
0:24:47 the tablets were written to him so he's
0:24:49 a man of letter letters he's educated
0:24:51 he's not just illiterate and the israeli
0:24:54 people through history were educated
0:24:56 people does not mean everyone is
0:24:57 literate
0:24:59 general the entire past there would be a
0:25:00 good fraction of the people illiterate
0:25:02 but there is a good fraction so the
0:25:04 whole nation can be regarded as a
0:25:05 literate nation as a land nation so
0:25:08 ignoring all these narratives and
0:25:10 declaring them to be metaphorical i
0:25:12 think this starting point is that what
0:25:14 made western scholarship especially the
0:25:17 one in the let's say the 19th that 18th
0:25:19 and 19th century
0:25:21 up to the middle of it but we have a you
0:25:23 know coming back to some sense in this
0:25:26 direction
0:25:27 has discrete itself if you start with
0:25:29 this starting point then you will never
0:25:31 get any reasonable scholarship why not
0:25:33 start these narratives maybe contain
0:25:35 some considerable history but contain
0:25:37 maybe some legendary amplifications and
0:25:40 then analyze it and go try to
0:25:42 synchronize it with babylonic and
0:25:44 egyptian history and so on and try to
0:25:46 come to some reasonable
0:25:48 representation of history not not
0:25:50 insisting that unless i find a piece of
0:25:52 bone or a stone or engravement i'm not
0:25:55 going to believe it
0:25:56 i i think this is this is not proper
0:25:58 scholarship it's actually disgraceful
0:26:01 i know that
0:26:03 most
0:26:04 scholar will be upset to hear that as
0:26:06 well but i think the the the western
0:26:08 scholarship in the 18th and 19th century
0:26:10 has disgraced itself by this uh by by
0:26:13 taking this starting point that's not a
0:26:14 scholarly statement boy
0:26:16 we have we have a whole nation
0:26:20 set in that area for example it is
0:26:22 enough just to go to jesus and see that
0:26:24 the antiquity of the jews the wars of
0:26:26 the jews
0:26:27 and this it cannot be it's rationally
0:26:29 impossible that all of that is is
0:26:31 legendary and has no historic roots
0:26:35 assume that it has substantially
0:26:36 historic backer background
0:26:38 and somewhat maybe maybe legendary and
0:26:40 maybe fabricated maybe exaggerated then
0:26:43 you are you're starting from a
0:26:44 reasonable point
0:26:46 so i think that's the reason they they
0:26:48 started everything from starting the
0:26:50 essentially like like a horizontal point
0:26:52 of view that's what we have achieved in
0:26:54 the 17 18 19th century and
0:26:56 post-renaissance that's that's the only
0:26:59 reasonable scholarship and the only a
0:27:01 respectable way of doing things but all
0:27:04 previous nations all cultures and
0:27:05 civilization they have to be discounted
0:27:07 and ignored
0:27:11 yeah i think i think this attitude is
0:27:13 the problem which led to
0:27:15 that you find people spending all their
0:27:17 life digging up around something while
0:27:19 the solution is quite almost clear in
0:27:21 front of them
0:27:23 because they chose to regard that like
0:27:25 for example uh concerning the first
0:27:28 writings of the new testament
0:27:30 instead of starting from what what what
0:27:32 bishop babies
0:27:34 the first writing was with the
0:27:36 collection of matthew who collected
0:27:38 collected the utterances of the lord and
0:27:40 the first gospel was what peter dictated
0:27:44 the people on rome and take that as a
0:27:46 reasonable maybe it has reasonable
0:27:47 historical reliability and built from
0:27:49 there they want to of change it into a
0:27:51 missionary world
0:27:54 um so uh
0:27:56 i'm not sure if you caught this uh i
0:27:58 said i'm
0:27:59 to bring to bring the topic back to
0:28:01 christianity um
0:28:03 i i am a christian so uh if you have any
0:28:06 questions for me
0:28:07 uh please let me know no problem yeah so
0:28:09 that's that uh so the the
0:28:13 most of the modern scholarship except
0:28:15 few really who have have come to their
0:28:17 senses and they took with uh
0:28:20 regarded with with some kind of
0:28:22 respect and
0:28:24 accepted the achievement of ancient
0:28:26 scholars as not not not ultimate not
0:28:29 final not infallible but at least some
0:28:31 scholarly work like for example uzibius
0:28:33 eusebius when he wrote about
0:28:36 various historical aspects
0:28:38 the man dug
0:28:39 he he traveled all palestine he dug even
0:28:42 records of the romans he that even
0:28:44 mensheva records municipalities he did
0:28:47 some considerable historic work he did
0:28:49 not just sit down and imagine something
0:28:51 i wrote it down or just read some what
0:28:53 other people read he cross-referenced
0:28:55 many things
0:28:56 and he visited almost every locality of
0:28:59 importance in palestine trying to trace
0:29:01 history of jesus history really
0:29:03 christianity see what if there are
0:29:05 public records if there are court
0:29:06 records and so on and he went through
0:29:08 all of that
0:29:09 he spent the life in that that such work
0:29:13 may be primitive after the level of that
0:29:15 time or something like that but should
0:29:17 should be respected that should be taken
0:29:18 on board not just completely ignored if
0:29:20 it doesn't exist
0:29:21 the same about full time the history of
0:29:23 the jews or the antiquity of the jews by
0:29:25 jesus and should should be given due
0:29:27 consideration
0:29:29 i i have the feeling that is not being
0:29:31 given considerable uh attention as it
0:29:33 should be
0:29:35 yeah anyway but this is that's a german
0:29:38 criticism i think i think there's a
0:29:39 major shortcoming that all this
0:29:41 scholarship has to be revisited again
0:29:43 both in the linguistic aspects and
0:29:45 historic aspects and so on
0:29:47 okay so now should we continue so i i
0:29:50 would say the the first part i wouldn't
0:29:53 say that it fits any really scientific
0:29:56 geological and so on but we could say
0:29:58 the people struggled they hear from the
0:30:01 prophets that god's created the earth
0:30:03 out of nothing he said maybe light he
0:30:05 celebrated the united general general
0:30:08 headlines to give them some some idea
0:30:10 about the creation and people as usual
0:30:13 they are not happy with such a summary
0:30:16 they must they must expand and and
0:30:19 develop and add things from
0:30:21 their imagination like for example the
0:30:25 the
0:30:25 the
0:30:26 verses 24 until 31 about the creation of
0:30:30 mansion should have
0:30:32 covered things reasonably about the
0:30:33 creation of man
0:30:35 the expansion then in in in in chapter
0:30:38 two that i i think created problem with
0:30:41 with the with the uh with uh
0:30:44 uh with the
0:30:45 if it's taken literally
0:30:47 and it has
0:30:48 the way it's narrated some of it must be
0:30:50 taken literally and very difficult to
0:30:52 interpret it metaphorically with the
0:30:54 result that we we we have things which
0:30:57 are manifestly unscientific or
0:30:59 contradicting science
0:31:01 i i have a question what's the uh what's
0:31:03 the muslim position on evolution
0:31:06 uh there are various oppositions i think
0:31:09 the muslim position should be that
0:31:10 evolution is not a problem fundamentally
0:31:12 it's not a problem
0:31:13 actually actually
0:31:15 when we come to when we get i hope we'll
0:31:17 get some time we'll get when we get to
0:31:18 the various quranic verses i think they
0:31:20 are hinting strongly toward evolution
0:31:22 without going into fine details
0:31:24 but they're very strong hints
0:31:27 and i i disagree with people who say
0:31:29 that
0:31:30 that
0:31:31 uh for various reasons they claim that
0:31:34 this will contain that the fact that
0:31:36 that man and man and abes are having a
0:31:38 common ancestory which you can declare
0:31:41 declare as apes so usually they make it
0:31:44 as like mockery man descends from apes
0:31:46 okay a black creature because the the
0:31:49 joint the joint ancestry will be more
0:31:51 more applied than human-like so if you
0:31:53 say man descends from apes this will be
0:31:56 for many people shocking
0:31:57 but
0:31:58 but but but it's not a matter of
0:32:00 shocking but really analyzing the
0:32:02 quranic text at least in in the case of
0:32:05 the old testament of the effects gene
0:32:06 genesis is really very verbal it it
0:32:10 it creates problems
0:32:12 it creates problems especially if the
0:32:14 the days are taken
0:32:16 to be a thousand years from our current
0:32:19 years at all these things then you will
0:32:21 come it will come into a
0:32:23 massive conflict with the geology with
0:32:26 cosmology with many other things
0:32:30 but in islamic and ancient islamic
0:32:31 scholarship they have to understand the
0:32:34 quranic verses there which have various
0:32:36 ends
0:32:37 they have no material at hand there was
0:32:39 not enough scientific information there
0:32:41 so the majority
0:32:43 has fallen back to the old testament
0:32:45 regarding this at least it contains
0:32:47 hopefully as good of a ancient
0:32:50 revelation and information which may be
0:32:52 better than uh than referring to nothing
0:32:55 so you find in the in the books of
0:32:58 uh
0:32:59 that's quranic
0:33:00 jesus
0:33:01 the
0:33:02 many many imports from from the old and
0:33:04 new testament
0:33:07 especially the old testament concerning
0:33:08 the creation story of israelite seven
0:33:10 does not address these things this is
0:33:12 the life of isis essentially so you find
0:33:14 this and most of the time taken
0:33:17 uncritically
0:33:19 and the quran is integrated accordingly
0:33:21 but if you look at it from a purely
0:33:23 linguistic and more digging point of
0:33:24 view it is it points very strong toward
0:33:27 throughout evolution and settles many
0:33:29 issue questions about evolution and i
0:33:31 think a remarkable way but
0:33:33 let us let us first go to chapter 2 and
0:33:36 so on and see where where i i have some
0:33:39 criticism there and i think it is it is
0:33:42 some some of the story has been imported
0:33:44 from pagan sources so let's go to
0:33:46 chapter two
0:33:48 uh
0:33:49 maybe we read through it also i i don't
0:33:52 think it's about to
0:33:53 read through it quickly although i have
0:33:55 in the summary uh like verse number two
0:33:57 and then he jumped to 16 17 that's
0:34:00 really the the one which i felt it's uh
0:34:03 uh yeah actually uh my the objection to
0:34:06 to to number two is that the issue that
0:34:09 that god rested and uh in the in the
0:34:12 seventh day and that's the reason the
0:34:14 sabbath has been enacted i think this is
0:34:16 completely uh pagan because attributing
0:34:20 resting and being tired to god is
0:34:22 completely not acceptable in islam and
0:34:24 the quran says clearly we created even
0:34:26 earth in six days and no tiredness are
0:34:28 touching us even touching
0:34:30 so that was that was for the quran
0:34:33 that's impossible
0:34:35 what was the motivation to have that
0:34:37 written down i don't think this comes
0:34:38 from the prophets
0:34:40 uh most likely it is to give the sabbath
0:34:43 some more deep sadism that's even the
0:34:45 divine being has had to rest on the
0:34:47 sabbath
0:34:48 to to make the sabbath more holy than it
0:34:50 should be
0:34:52 possibly i don't know i don't know
0:34:54 what's the motivation for people to but
0:34:56 human beings are like that if they have
0:34:58 just maybe
0:34:59 a summary prophecy about something
0:35:02 and it is only one or two lines it's not
0:35:04 very satisfactory we love stories we
0:35:06 love expanding things and adding to them
0:35:09 heads and tails and so on and they come
0:35:11 in so they become become enjoyable
0:35:14 it's very difficult to to
0:35:17 to tell someone that there was a a war
0:35:19 between the stars about about about
0:35:21 uh oppressive imperialism and democracy
0:35:24 you must may make star wars six episodes
0:35:27 or nine episodes so that people can
0:35:29 enjoy the expansion what about
0:35:31 uh like like
0:35:34 um
0:35:36 yeah this uh the whole issue with the
0:35:37 throne and the arch is completely
0:35:39 metaphorical
0:35:41 let's get some good arch on the throne
0:35:42 although
0:35:54 and it is very very well possible that
0:35:56 the
0:35:57 simple people will think and have such a
0:35:59 mental image but they they should know
0:36:01 at the same time if they have such a
0:36:02 metal image they should know also that
0:36:04 allah has is not not similar or equal or
0:36:07 equivalent to anything but if you dig
0:36:09 deeper into if you do a philosophical or
0:36:12 theological deeply theological discourse
0:36:15 the the interpretation of the ashari and
0:36:17 the majority of uh
0:36:19 kalam is that the throne is a
0:36:20 metaphorical metaphorism for the kingdom
0:36:23 and the story is a metaphorism for that
0:36:26 the
0:36:27 kings who kings who establish a kingdom
0:36:29 in human kings when they establish a
0:36:30 kingdom by wars and so on activity after
0:36:33 establishing the kingdom they sit on the
0:36:35 throne and manage the kingdom
0:36:37 that's that's the testament for his
0:36:38 views there but neither neither
0:36:41 and also it's it's a if if the people
0:36:44 read the quran carefully and also zama
0:36:46 hadith in that area they would recognize
0:36:48 the throne is is is is mentioned that it
0:36:51 exists before even the creation so it
0:36:53 cannot be a created entity it's
0:36:54 something related to the divine which
0:36:56 has to be given a metaphoric
0:36:58 interpretation but as as like
0:37:00 approximation number one for the common
0:37:02 man he may imagine a throne under under
0:37:05 a seat in which the divine sits and
0:37:06 things like that such a mental image can
0:37:09 emerge in someone's mind
0:37:11 professor the verses that we just read
0:37:14 from the bible it referred to you know
0:37:16 that god's
0:37:18 spirit was over the
0:37:20 water or something and i think we have
0:37:22 the same parable in the quran
0:37:25 yeah
0:37:26 what does it mean i say this is this is
0:37:28 a place where where also the classical
0:37:31 scholars have wavered and had difficulty
0:37:34 i i think uh the the only way to give it
0:37:37 any deeper sense
0:37:39 is to regard as the metaphor
0:37:42 of the throne as the kingdom or the
0:37:44 power the the
0:37:46 the divine kingdom extends over the
0:37:48 water what's the water obviously we are
0:37:50 not talking the water here in the old
0:37:52 testament you give you the ambition that
0:37:53 the same water which we have on earth
0:37:55 now
0:37:56 the quran does not mention that it's
0:37:57 definitely before immigration ever
0:37:59 destroyed the throne is underwater
0:38:02 that's the before that also also in the
0:38:04 in the bible because if you read it
0:38:06 again it was like from the exactly the
0:38:08 beginning even before creation i think
0:38:11 yeah read it again i i felt it's after
0:38:13 creation somehow
0:38:15 before
0:38:17 after it they may be light etc
0:38:20 so it gives the ambition that it's the
0:38:22 created water or the water for the which
0:38:25 somehow related to our water
0:38:28 but this could this could be a
0:38:30 misunderstanding of the people who wrote
0:38:32 these documents in ancient time of that
0:38:34 what they got from the prophets this can
0:38:36 happen
0:38:37 waste and void and darkness is on the
0:38:40 face of the deep
0:38:42 on the actual earth yeah and the spirit
0:38:45 of god was fluttering on the face of the
0:38:47 waters
0:38:49 ah so it is
0:38:51 it's like something like that but this
0:38:53 is maybe misunderstanding of the ancient
0:38:55 writers of that what the prophets have
0:38:56 given them as a as a metaphor why the
0:38:59 quran stressed clearly that that that
0:39:01 creation everything was done and his
0:39:03 throne was on the water now my my
0:39:05 metaphorical interpretation for that
0:39:07 is that if we interpret the throne as as
0:39:09 a metaphor for the kingdom his kingdom
0:39:12 extended over the water now we have to
0:39:14 go a little bit deep because this water
0:39:16 is definitely having to do with the the
0:39:18 the water we have in this world the only
0:39:20 thing i could envisage
0:39:23 is that
0:39:24 water is is is the prime example of a
0:39:27 liquid and liquid is a for the human
0:39:29 usual perception uh is is regarded as as
0:39:32 as a continuous media as a continuum
0:39:35 in distinction to sad sound is usually
0:39:37 regarded as as like you say
0:39:40 this man has so many good deeds or so
0:39:42 many sins like the sun's like the the
0:39:45 grains of suns at the in the whole world
0:39:47 or something like that
0:39:49 that usually we regard we got the the
0:39:52 the sand as as
0:39:54 as grainy
0:39:55 and we say which it is and regard the
0:39:57 water at the example of a continuous
0:40:00 connector obviously we know now of
0:40:03 physically that it consists of molecules
0:40:05 etcetera etcetera for the gliber but but
0:40:07 in the usual human perception it is a
0:40:10 prime example of
0:40:11 of let's say a continuous medium which
0:40:13 is incompressible and so on in the ideal
0:40:15 form
0:40:16 all these concepts are obviously later
0:40:18 before the time of time of quran and
0:40:21 even before the time of the old
0:40:22 testament for the water so the water may
0:40:24 be a metaphor for the the continuum for
0:40:27 possibility so his kingdom or his power
0:40:29 extend of all possibilities which are
0:40:31 not grainy to continue the continuum of
0:40:34 eventuality and
0:40:36 contingencies which are continuous they
0:40:38 are they are not just just grainy or to
0:40:41 use the language of mathematics they
0:40:43 cannot be counted one two three four
0:40:44 they are uncountable they are continuous
0:40:48 i know that's a little bit deep but this
0:40:50 is the only way it can it can make any
0:40:53 sense with all other things
0:40:56 yeah
0:40:57 there may be another deeper
0:40:58 interpretation i don't know but i think
0:41:00 this is this is the
0:41:02 maybe the the best what we can say the
0:41:05 same i think in the old testament also i
0:41:07 think that's that the people expanded
0:41:09 the soul
0:41:10 is most likely
0:41:12 it goes to a prophetic root let's just
0:41:14 say
0:41:15 ibrahimovic
0:41:17 and so on because these are the
0:41:20 patriarchs which are yaakov said in
0:41:22 egypt obviously and his children
0:41:25 egypt was was chosen by allah to be like
0:41:27 an incubator for the police a new nation
0:41:30 at the time they could not survive
0:41:31 outside
0:41:33 as they survived obviously the sad
0:41:35 downside that they would enslaved but
0:41:37 that the creation of a nation with good
0:41:40 numbers and so on so ready to be is more
0:41:43 valuable obviously more important than
0:41:45 that they will be uh having obviously
0:41:47 the weakness and characters and broken
0:41:50 characters but the breaking character
0:41:52 and the slave slavers slavish mentality
0:41:55 can be eased cleaned this was cleaned by
0:41:56 the by the by by the uh 40 years in the
0:42:00 wilderness all the old guys the weak
0:42:03 whims and so on where were exterminated
0:42:05 and young strong generation came forward
0:42:07 and that's easy to do but incubating and
0:42:09 getting a nation to a good number so
0:42:12 they can start real nation
0:42:13 need really at the incubation of the
0:42:15 egyptian environment despite of the
0:42:17 danger of slavery and which they fell
0:42:19 and the mistreatment but this is
0:42:21 this is going in history in a
0:42:22 philosophical way which only god knows
0:42:25 really hundred percent if that's really
0:42:27 was a divine intention but it looks like
0:42:29 that
0:42:30 anyway i would say
0:42:33 from these prophets definitely some
0:42:34 tradition came down
0:42:36 through the scholarship of bani israel
0:42:38 which basically persisted over
0:42:40 generation until the time of musa and
0:42:41 harun and further down the road and
0:42:44 the people wrote it down tried to
0:42:46 interpret it maybe added some
0:42:48 explanation or script in the original
0:42:50 text and then we have this final text so
0:42:54 the text of the the chapter one i
0:42:56 wouldn't say it is
0:42:58 it it has become only
0:43:00 extremely unscientific because the
0:43:02 people added from their imagination
0:43:03 tried to understand maybe just headlines
0:43:06 of what the prophets have said
0:43:09 we'll see an example in the creation of
0:43:11 of eve from adam's rib which is made
0:43:14 very literal most likely it is also
0:43:16 metaphorical from the prophets
0:43:18 and we have also have similar hadith
0:43:22 i mentioned that woman is created from
0:43:24 arab and if you want to straighten it
0:43:25 you will break it so you have to enjoy
0:43:27 her as it is meaning her nature compared
0:43:29 to a man seems to be
0:43:32 twisted and from her point of view a man
0:43:34 is also twisted both of you are twisted
0:43:36 but
0:43:37 if in the view of another if each one
0:43:39 the nature of a woman is not like a man
0:43:41 from a man point of view she's happy
0:43:42 twisted and for here a man appears
0:43:44 twisted also it is a it's a it's a
0:43:46 reflexive relation
0:43:48 and the only way is that you accept
0:43:50 women as they are they are not a copy of
0:43:52 manhood and woman should accept men as
0:43:55 they are they're not copy of womanhood
0:43:57 otherwise they will not be able to live
0:43:59 nicely
0:44:00 they will have conflicts and that's what
0:44:02 that's the original metaphor
0:44:04 but someone understood that it's have
0:44:05 been physically the case and even
0:44:08 explained here and then
0:44:10 became really expanded and details and
0:44:13 also adam was put to sleep and then
0:44:16 his chest was slit and bro and the rib
0:44:18 was taken out and then again the chest
0:44:21 was swollen back or something like that
0:44:22 who read it
0:44:24 it's interesting to read that how people
0:44:25 may be an initial metaphor given and we
0:44:29 should also recognize that the ancient
0:44:30 prophets even at the time there is
0:44:32 alistair
0:44:34 even they were talking more in
0:44:36 metaphorical parables and examples than
0:44:39 in direct speech
0:44:41 taking into consideration the level of
0:44:42 the
0:44:44 civilization the progress level of
0:44:46 scientific discourse level of
0:44:48 philosophical sophistication was not up
0:44:50 to that level yet
0:44:53 so they were they were really relying on
0:44:55 giving proverbs metaphors and so on
0:44:59 more often than not only in very few
0:45:00 things like issues like for example an
0:45:03 advancing army what to do with them then
0:45:05 you have obviously to give concrete
0:45:06 advice and concrete prophecies about
0:45:08 this situation but otherwise if you
0:45:10 think about the creation of manager i
0:45:12 think many things were meant by the
0:45:14 province metaphorical
0:45:16 but the recipients uh could not really
0:45:19 live happily with just just just the
0:45:21 general metaphors they have to add to
0:45:24 the story and and expand it and make it
0:45:26 look nicer and more more enjoyable for
0:45:29 reading
0:45:30 that's that i think that's how it
0:45:31 developed
0:45:32 i i'm actually i'm not i i'm not
0:45:34 accusing anyone of the ancient right of
0:45:36 being deliberately mischievous but they
0:45:38 may they have been for example when when
0:45:41 the buddhists fit into kingdoms clearly
0:45:43 some of the writings is from the party
0:45:45 of
0:45:46 david and some writings from the party
0:45:48 of
0:45:49 of uh
0:45:50 of saul
0:45:51 talut
0:45:53 the talmud
0:45:54 which was which controlled the northern
0:45:57 kingdom of israel while david and his
0:45:59 descendant control the kingdom of of
0:46:01 judea yehudiyah and with a result that
0:46:04 they were hostile to each other and they
0:46:05 were
0:46:06 even even using other counting other
0:46:08 holiday systems other than even
0:46:11 even
0:46:12 even almost a different calendar and
0:46:14 they were at this hostility led that
0:46:16 some of the writings see you see from
0:46:18 the writing clearly an anti and anti
0:46:21 davidian stance in some writings and in
0:46:23 other writings and anti
0:46:25 uh somewhat stance so they have been
0:46:28 also partisanship and political struggle
0:46:31 which sneaked in the scripture in part
0:46:33 it's very complex how all these
0:46:35 documents are developed
0:46:38 modern scholarships started something
0:46:40 but because they started from the
0:46:41 beginning assuming everything is is is
0:46:44 legendary and lies and fabrication and
0:46:46 just uh
0:46:50 ancient pavilionic myths transferred and
0:46:52 so on with the result that they ended
0:46:54 really
0:46:55 producing nothing which is very really
0:46:57 very persuasive and very respectful
0:47:00 but now there's there's a there's a
0:47:02 direction going to recorrect that and
0:47:04 make things more in a balanced a
0:47:06 reasonable way
0:47:07 because they swear
0:47:08 the pendulum swung far away to the right
0:47:11 then inspire
0:47:13 for example they will establish the
0:47:16 tradition of the church until the
0:47:18 renaissance and after instance is that
0:47:19 these scriptures are infallible they
0:47:22 contain the word of god all right that
0:47:24 is
0:47:24 written as the divine protection that's
0:47:26 complicit
0:47:27 and
0:47:28 undefendable in this form
0:47:31 and that swung to the extreme that's all
0:47:33 all is legendary all is fabrication all
0:47:36 lies nothing they have that ever existed
0:47:38 now it's coming to a reasonable middle
0:47:39 point
0:47:43 but let's go to chapter two see if we
0:47:45 can you can glean something there about
0:47:47 about
0:47:49 the reliability and also what the story
0:47:51 really entails
0:47:54 yeah do you want to be that slavable
0:47:58 should we read all of it
0:48:00 uh as you wish professor what what do
0:48:02 you want which words to be read
0:48:04 chapter two i i i singled here in the
0:48:07 summary which i gave to you is a number
0:48:09 two just to uh to to stress that the
0:48:12 point of the rest thing is definitely
0:48:15 is definitely not from the prophets that
0:48:17 is a later later
0:48:19 later imagine a legendary amplification
0:48:22 of the sabbath
0:48:23 of the of the holiness of the sabbath
0:48:26 we read it quickly yes that's it yeah
0:48:28 right
0:48:29 you want to read it
0:48:32 or you read it all right
0:48:34 yes
0:48:35 okay
0:48:37 are you there relieve him from reading
0:48:39 especially
0:48:41 a little bit literally english is not
0:48:44 it's not everyone's cup of tea
0:48:49 but actually the american version is
0:48:51 almost modern english only just there
0:48:53 may be the
0:48:54 same things like that a few words but
0:48:56 that is this state the one we speak
0:48:59 every day
0:49:03 okay
0:49:09 the whole thing
0:49:10 yeah yeah we just go through it quickly
0:49:12 until we get to 16 then we slow but i
0:49:15 just i singled two in the summary out
0:49:18 because the issue of that god rested is
0:49:20 definitely rationally unconceivable and
0:49:22 not acceptable but this is
0:49:25 most likely to make the sabbath
0:49:27 the holiness of the sabbath and the
0:49:29 seizing work there grounded even in a
0:49:31 divine activity which it is not it is
0:49:35 just a divine injunction which has its
0:49:36 own reasoning
0:49:38 uh obviously separated from that god
0:49:40 needed to rest in this at the seventh
0:49:42 day or something this is obviously
0:49:44 completely and the quran if we refuse
0:49:46 that's completely we create evidence
0:49:48 that three sex days and no no no
0:49:50 tiredness even touched us
0:49:52 which is obvious so necessarily existing
0:49:54 being will concept of tiredness or
0:49:56 weakness
0:49:58 will never apply to it
0:50:01 okay
0:50:03 so um genesis chapter two thus the
0:50:06 heavens and the earth were completed in
0:50:07 all their vast array oh which version of
0:50:09 it by the way which translation yeah
0:50:12 which one everybody like maybe the
0:50:13 american one is the english is a little
0:50:15 bit easier
0:50:17 right now and so yeah it's for american
0:50:20 people it makes sense yeah okay no it's
0:50:24 plain english it's more plain english
0:50:25 which is good why not yeah yeah
0:50:27 yeah
0:50:29 okay so thus the heavens and the earth
0:50:30 were completed and all their hosts by
0:50:32 the seventh day god completed his work
0:50:34 which he had done and he rested on the
0:50:36 seventh day from all the work which he
0:50:38 had done
0:50:38 and god blessed the seventh day and
0:50:40 sanctified it because in it he rested
0:50:42 from all his work which god had created
0:50:44 and made
0:50:45 this is the account of the heavens and
0:50:47 the earth
0:50:48 when they were created in the day that
0:50:49 the lord god made earth and heaven
0:50:52 now no shrub of field was yet in the
0:50:54 earth and no plant of the field had yet
0:50:55 sprouted for the lord god had not sent
0:50:57 rain upon the earth there was no man to
0:50:59 cultivate the ground now you see you see
0:51:02 now they go into the details about the
0:51:04 pre-creation of adam which has been in
0:51:06 the summary before more reasonable the
0:51:08 summary before plants came fast which
0:51:10 looks more like
0:51:12 more more or less generally close to
0:51:15 what we know from geology and
0:51:17 just
0:51:18 like like main strokes with a brush
0:51:20 not really any details because this is
0:51:22 not supposed to be a book of geology or
0:51:24 paleontology or something like that but
0:51:26 there is start with with the obviously
0:51:28 with plants and seeds and it goes to the
0:51:31 to the beds and so on which looks like
0:51:33 similar to what we know from geology in
0:51:36 order of creation now it goes back and
0:51:38 then it is messed up again so it seemed
0:51:41 to be the one who
0:51:43 edited that
0:51:45 did not think seriously or did not dare
0:51:47 going back and the other one or regarded
0:51:50 that summary is enough although there is
0:51:52 clearly contradiction between the two
0:51:54 but carry on carry on you will see that
0:51:56 how it is because here the
0:51:59 at least the cattle and
0:52:01 some some
0:52:02 some animals and some
0:52:04 some seeds and some plants are created
0:52:06 for adam after he was created and there
0:52:08 is definitely well before day three
0:52:11 before day five which makes better sense
0:52:14 in chapter one
0:52:16 at least fits more or less roughly with
0:52:18 the geology and paleontology and so on
0:52:20 it can be tolerated can we say okay
0:52:22 maybe this had a prophetic root i
0:52:24 probably told them first first of all
0:52:26 the earth was there and the day and
0:52:28 night were established and then trees
0:52:29 came and the birds came and things like
0:52:32 that just general rough order of things
0:52:35 which makes sense
0:52:36 but here we we getting some somehow in
0:52:39 things which are clearly not acceptable
0:52:42 for in a scientific or or even in
0:52:45 civilization with the child with the
0:52:47 chapter one
0:52:48 they carry on
0:52:49 okay but a mist used to rise from the
0:52:51 earth and the water and water the whole
0:52:54 surface of the ground then the lord god
0:52:56 formed man of the man of dust from the
0:52:58 ground and breathed into his nostrils
0:53:00 the breath of life and man became
0:53:03 a living being
0:53:04 lord god planted a garden toward the
0:53:06 east in eden and there he placed the man
0:53:09 whom he had formed out of the ground the
0:53:11 lord god caused to grow every tree that
0:53:13 is pleasing to the sight and good for
0:53:15 food tree of life also also in the midst
0:53:17 of the garden and the tree of knowledge
0:53:18 of good and evil now a river flowed out
0:53:21 of eden to water the garden and from
0:53:23 there it divided and became four rivers
0:53:25 the name of the first is
0:53:27 it flows around the whole land of habila
0:53:29 where there is gold that's that's uh
0:53:32 just a quick comment uh
0:53:34 this is where where you find this santa
0:53:36 fe that
0:53:37 uh claim that there's a hadith it's not
0:53:39 it is a fabricated obviously but it
0:53:42 taken from me that that
0:53:44 the river four rivers are coming from
0:53:46 paradise and one of them is
0:53:49 they have farad and the kneel or
0:53:50 something like that here others
0:53:52 mentioned
0:53:53 are mentioned as again it comes from
0:53:55 that one
0:53:57 and it comes from the claim that these
0:53:58 rivers flown from this from this place
0:54:00 obviously
0:54:02 this has obviously no geographic no
0:54:04 geophysical no geological standing
0:54:06 whatsoever and also where this aiden is
0:54:09 located according to the description if
0:54:11 if one of those seems to be sahon which
0:54:13 is in in uzbekistan
0:54:15 then this may uh lend some some some way
0:54:18 to the claim that
0:54:20 that adam came down in north india on a
0:54:22 kashmir or something like that that's
0:54:24 according to some of the myths going
0:54:26 around another myth is that he emerged
0:54:28 actually in in in arabia that's
0:54:31 obviously an arabic myth and then we
0:54:33 have then the other one which is more
0:54:35 more fine having a better standing uh is
0:54:38 that it is it's maybe in the high plain
0:54:40 of abyssinian but how come then say hon
0:54:43 has has come from there so they say it's
0:54:45 only metaphorical they they are such
0:54:48 blessed as if they are coming from
0:54:50 paradise or something
0:54:52 you see when people develop such stories
0:54:54 to start it then they get stuck with the
0:54:56 reality with the contradiction with the
0:54:58 reality and they try to go to
0:55:00 metaphorical interpretation okay carry
0:55:02 on
0:55:05 um the gold of that land is good and the
0:55:08 bdellium and the onyx stone are there
0:55:10 name of the second river is guy han it
0:55:13 flows from the whole land of cush
0:55:15 name of the third river is tigris it
0:55:17 flows east of assyria
0:55:24 is is is essentially i think abyssinian
0:55:27 and sudan
0:55:29 that's the lantern of course
0:55:32 that's the end of course so
0:55:34 the fourth river is the euphrates
0:55:36 yeah you see so we have the euphrates
0:55:38 antigris these two
0:55:40 but we know it is coming from the high
0:55:42 plains of turkey
0:55:43 physically it's impossible that they
0:55:45 they
0:55:46 to get them coming from the same place
0:55:48 that the one was coming from the land of
0:55:50 kush which is maybe maybe the uh the the
0:55:53 is it the white nile or the blue nile
0:55:54 coming from obviously from ethiopia
0:55:57 either one of them most likely this is
0:55:59 the one meant there
0:56:00 the the high one the nihilist stuff is
0:56:02 not mentioned
0:56:04 anyway i don't know if is the name niall
0:56:06 mentioned in the old testament was it
0:56:08 that the old name or it is a more modern
0:56:10 name
0:56:12 i don't think it's mentioned the old
0:56:13 testament
0:56:15 what's the name of the the main river of
0:56:17 egypt in the old testament or in in in
0:56:20 egyptian language maybe it's maybe
0:56:23 that's the old name of it
0:56:25 because this is the one coming from the
0:56:26 land of kush
0:56:32 yeah i don't know what what's the name
0:56:33 given to that river coming from the land
0:56:35 of kush
0:56:39 Music
0:56:41 and they said
0:56:42 the verse you just read
0:56:44 they say the first river the second ever
0:56:46 the three they were the fourth river
0:56:47 yeah
0:56:49 i think i think it's the second one they
0:56:51 come one coming from the land of kush
0:56:55 water
0:56:56 so
0:57:00 and river went out of eden to water the
0:57:03 garden and from thence it was parted and
0:57:06 became four heads
0:57:08 the name of the first is fishen
0:57:11 that is it which uh compasses the whole
0:57:15 land of
0:57:17 havillah where there is gold we don't
0:57:20 know what's this
0:57:22 yeah second one
0:57:23 and the gold of that land is good
0:57:26 there is pitillium
0:57:29 and the on
0:57:31 onyx stone
0:57:33 and the name of the second river is
0:57:35 jihoon
0:57:37 that's jay honest that's the only
0:57:52 obviously somehow the
0:57:54 say the the either the geography is
0:57:56 upside down
0:57:57 or i i have a misunderstanding my
0:57:59 understanding is that old testament kush
0:58:01 is is south of egypt that's the
0:58:04 land of nubia sudan and on the high
0:58:06 mountain of ethiopia
0:58:09 that's kush
0:58:11 is which river
0:58:13 but
0:58:14 the name sounds like jehoon maybe it's
0:58:17 maybe a mistake maybe it's the old name
0:58:19 of about nile or something like that we
0:58:21 never know
0:58:23 anyway the two last are very clear
0:58:25 tigris and euphrates that's we know what
0:58:27 they are these are definitely
0:58:29 well known
0:58:31 name of the third river is
0:58:33 a deacon
0:58:35 in which goes in front of assyria
0:58:39 and the fourth river is your radish
0:58:43 is like uh
0:58:45 what is it called uh
0:58:48 foreign
0:58:53 yeah maybe something like that
0:58:55 anyway the geography is definitely
0:58:57 completely bungled
0:58:59 but but
0:59:01 people will tell you most likely this is
0:59:02 just metaphorical for the four four
0:59:04 blessed rivers
0:59:06 uh but since the the garden of eden east
0:59:08 and so on seems to be on earth so it is
0:59:11 not like the usual assumption that the
0:59:13 garden of eden is in heaven and these
0:59:15 these rivers are just emerging from
0:59:17 there in a matter of blessing matter of
0:59:19 metaphorical or or spiritual meaning
0:59:22 anyway
0:59:23 we will not get stuck very much in that
0:59:25 but
0:59:26 definitely geography is quite a
0:59:28 bangle there but anyway just a small
0:59:31 small remarks just a quick remark about
0:59:33 the geography of
0:59:35 of
0:59:36 of the ancient
0:59:38 is is quite is quite
0:59:41 unreliable and efficient let me give you
0:59:42 an example
0:59:44 when
0:59:45 helene the mother of uh
0:59:48 of uh constantine
0:59:50 who uh who adopted christianity as
0:59:52 essentially almost our official religion
0:59:54 of the empire converted the roman empire
0:59:56 into a christian empire more or less
0:59:58 more or less it's not exactly like that
1:00:00 but more or less
1:00:01 she
1:00:03 also his mother was very influential
1:00:05 she's the one who persuaded him in that
1:00:06 direction anyway she's a very powerful
1:00:08 woman she decided to go to palestine and
1:00:10 get all possible artifacts of christ and
1:00:12 so on and the big cross was found
1:00:14 allegedly all of these things that's
1:00:17 that's we can argue about that but
1:00:19 what's interesting that she wanted to uh
1:00:21 to locate where is mount sinai
1:00:24 and with consulting christian and jewish
1:00:26 scholars she consulted with your scholar
1:00:28 because he knows this
1:00:30 they may have something that
1:00:32 and
1:00:34 ultimately
1:00:35 they concluded that the wilderness and
1:00:37 all this is in what the current uh
1:00:39 peninsula of sinai which belongs to
1:00:41 egypt
1:00:43 and she established this uh this this
1:00:46 uh abbey and the church on top of the
1:00:49 mountain which is called the mountain
1:00:51 musa nowadays since almost uh
1:00:53 1600 years after that
1:00:55 two or three centuries before islam yeah
1:00:58 and i think you saw so called saint
1:00:59 catherine it's called saint catherine or
1:01:01 something saint catherine church or
1:01:03 something like that
1:01:04 the one in in in in this egyptian sinai
1:01:09 yeah anyone anyone remember that
1:01:12 and that's the one which also a very the
1:01:14 one the oldest latin manuscript of
1:01:17 of
1:01:18 full manuscript of the at least the new
1:01:20 testament i think of the whole bible
1:01:22 uh
1:01:23 the the one in parchment was found also
1:01:25 regarded as one of the important the
1:01:27 most important references
1:01:29 and that its age is well established to
1:01:31 be like a third or fourth century
1:01:34 and it was found in that church
1:01:36 in in the depository of that chest and
1:01:39 other important manuscripts there that's
1:01:41 the one on top of the mountain in sinai
1:01:44 it is on your way where you come from
1:01:46 suez from cairo's ways passing there
1:01:48 roughly going down to charlemagne so
1:01:50 it's in the current called the uh
1:01:52 sinai uh peninsula
1:01:56 but if you
1:01:57 if you uh
1:01:59 so that's based on their best guesses
1:02:01 according to the best uh the best uh
1:02:04 the best geography they had unless
1:02:06 someone claimed that the jews didn't
1:02:08 mischievously to mislead her that's
1:02:10 that's a possibility but i would say
1:02:12 it's a very very minor possibility but
1:02:14 there's no reason for them to do that i
1:02:15 think
1:02:17 god knows at that time the hostility of
1:02:19 the empire to the jews was not to speak
1:02:22 and
1:02:24 Music
1:02:26 there's no reason to assume something
1:02:27 like that so their geological
1:02:29 understanding but if we go back to more
1:02:32 ancient writings and claims like like
1:02:35 paul saying
1:02:37 about about mount sinai in arabia that's
1:02:40 number one
1:02:41 and this peninsula is not called alive
1:02:43 definitely secondly the description of
1:02:45 the exodus
1:02:46 as based on as much documents as
1:02:49 josephus was able to to to to get his
1:02:53 hand on he describes it also almost day
1:02:55 by day
1:02:56 and the root etc
1:02:59 makes it impossible that that that it
1:03:02 it be in the current scenario
1:03:04 is actually in arabia in north saudi
1:03:07 arabia around the 38th degree north i
1:03:10 have even some maps of that i will give
1:03:11 it if someone is interested i will give
1:03:13 you some preliminary work in that
1:03:15 direction i was relying on some people
1:03:17 to go there
1:03:18 and do some photographic work and search
1:03:20 maybe for inscription or rocks because
1:03:22 the area there is full of artifacts and
1:03:25 and things like but most people i relied
1:03:27 upon were not reliable they didn't go
1:03:29 there
1:03:30 they don't do the job
1:03:32 so just relying on google maps and then
1:03:34 some
1:03:35 some other
1:03:36 considerations are used for some other
1:03:38 information so mount sinai is almost
1:03:42 certainly
1:03:45 in in arabia and the arab peninsula is
1:03:47 almost certainly still having the same
1:03:50 name in arabic like this used to be a
1:03:52 hotel you know it's called it's called
1:03:54 the old testament
1:03:56 mount
1:03:57 horrible
1:03:59 horrible yeah
1:04:01 just translate that in arabic it's harip
1:04:03 or harp there's a mountain there called
1:04:05 harp in the exact location all the
1:04:08 evidences point to
1:04:12 so so uh
1:04:13 so you see uh even even located under
1:04:16 under and uh
1:04:18 and the whole wilderness which they were
1:04:20 wandering around for such a long time
1:04:23 and uh until all the old weak whims
1:04:25 generation died out etc
1:04:28 uh is actually in in in the current
1:04:30 jordan in east jordan
1:04:33 that's the whole generation
1:04:35 the whole the whole wilderness obviously
1:04:37 they were not
1:04:39 locked in one place because they were
1:04:40 living like a nomadic life but they were
1:04:42 roaming in that area north arabia all
1:04:45 the way to in the east toward the iraqi
1:04:47 border karate iraqi border maybe through
1:04:49 to syrian border they were roaming in
1:04:51 that area
1:04:52 grazing and so on and and
1:04:54 and waiting for for for for the for the
1:04:58 uh for the punishment to be lifted and
1:05:00 then they can
1:05:02 then go to palestine which happened
1:05:04 after musa moses
1:05:06 and uh amazingly they ignored all the
1:05:09 evidence that for example that harun
1:05:11 died in the wilderness and he was buried
1:05:13 in the wilderness and at that time
1:05:15 uh the the grave of haroon is well known
1:05:17 there in the mountain mount nebu
1:05:19 all of this is there and still they they
1:05:22 ended with with the time of the alleged
1:05:24 wilderness being in the so-called sinai
1:05:26 peninsula now
1:05:28 well actually sinai is not even there
1:05:30 that's not sinai sena is actually in
1:05:32 north northwest saudi arabia that's not
1:05:34 the dlc
1:05:35 so that peninsula is even named wrongly
1:05:38 it should be renamed something like
1:05:40 maybe uh suez peninsula it gives any
1:05:42 other name
1:05:43 but not anthony
1:05:46 call it whatever but not cna that's not
1:05:48 silly well i'm almost certain about that
1:05:51 with all these evidences so
1:05:53 concerning geological information uh
1:05:56 geographical information
1:05:58 in the from the old testament and from
1:05:59 the ancients
1:06:01 up to
1:06:02 maybe
1:06:04 eighth century ninth century
1:06:06 or maybe a little bit before is very
1:06:09 unreliable
1:06:11 you should not take that and give that
1:06:13 any value it's it's just the people
1:06:15 did not really
1:06:19 got got the geography under the location
1:06:21 of places in the earth correctly
1:06:24 yeah so carry on just a side remark
1:06:28 yeah
1:06:30 um then the lord god took the man and
1:06:33 put him into the garden of eden to
1:06:35 cultivate it and keep it
1:06:37 lord commanded the man saying from any
1:06:38 tree of the garden you may eat freely
1:06:40 but from the tree of knowledge of good
1:06:41 and evil you shall not eat for in the
1:06:43 day
1:06:44 that you eat from it you will surely die
1:06:46 now that's it that's the lord
1:06:48 that's obviously completely pagan
1:06:51 uh
1:06:51 and the quran denies that
1:06:54 the strongest possible terms
1:06:56 uh the
1:06:58 the three is not the tree of knowledge
1:07:00 not even the tree of eternal life
1:07:02 nothing of that at all
1:07:04 it is only the devil who according to
1:07:06 the quran who
1:07:07 who is trying to whisper to adam that
1:07:10 this is the tree of eternal life if you
1:07:12 eat from it you you will be able to
1:07:14 overcome death
1:07:15 and
1:07:16 certainly not that you have knowledge
1:07:17 because the knowledge has been imparted
1:07:20 on adam in the famous ayah and that he
1:07:22 taught adam all names there's a mission
1:07:24 also teaching the adam the names there
1:07:26 but the names of animals and things like
1:07:28 that and some some some of us are in
1:07:30 some exercise also imported that and
1:07:33 claimed that's what hadn't been taught
1:07:35 by the scholarship station all names
1:07:38 what's meaning to teaching adam all
1:07:40 names
1:07:41 the only the only understanding is that
1:07:43 he taught him he gave him the capability
1:07:45 of naming things the capability of
1:07:47 conceptual thinking because obviously
1:07:49 rationality is is two or two parts
1:07:51 judgment as you know from logic and
1:07:54 concepts and concepts are two types
1:07:56 by by def by definition and by by
1:07:59 so-called description for us
1:08:01 we don't go into the fine format
1:08:03 so this capability
1:08:05 and the quran is clear that this quality
1:08:07 given to adam which is not even given to
1:08:08 the angels because they did not have
1:08:10 this capability and they admitted their
1:08:12 non-network ability so knowledge and
1:08:15 becoming knowledgeable and capable of
1:08:16 thinking is given by allah to adam
1:08:18 before that it is and there's and that
1:08:21 tree is definitely not a tree of
1:08:23 knowledge and this most definitely is
1:08:24 not the tree of eternal life because
1:08:27 that's the devil who's tried to persuade
1:08:29 adam you will become now you will become
1:08:31 like angels you will not die
1:08:33 and playing on his russian his natural
1:08:36 instinctive fear of death
1:08:39 and then this way he succeeded so that
1:08:41 point is definitely
1:08:43 i would say pagan that's that's it
1:08:45 that's in the pagan tradition where man
1:08:48 was created by the gods
1:08:51 for whatever purpose but he was deprived
1:08:53 from knowledge because otherwise he will
1:08:55 be similar to god or the gods and he can
1:08:57 challenge them
1:08:59 so he should be kept ignorant
1:09:01 that's that's the pagan concept as you
1:09:03 found it in greek
1:09:05 and greek in in greek mythology
1:09:08 in a very in a very
1:09:10 clear way
1:09:11 and you find even even teaching how to
1:09:14 make fire done by prometheus indian
1:09:16 promises who he says who is a one of the
1:09:18 gods or a half god being punished until
1:09:21 forever
1:09:22 by being devoured his liver being eaten
1:09:25 out by vultures etc for all eternities
1:09:28 and things like that
1:09:29 which shows this this this
1:09:32 this
1:09:33 uh this pagan point of view that that
1:09:36 that is a confrontation or a hostility
1:09:38 between man and god
1:09:39 and uh
1:09:41 this hostility expressed that the gods
1:09:43 are trying their best to prevent man
1:09:45 from gaining knowledge and challenging
1:09:47 them in their own field of expertise or
1:09:50 something like that so this is
1:09:51 definitely
1:09:52 important from paganism that tree is not
1:09:55 a tree of knowledge
1:09:57 has nothing to do with as well and
1:09:58 eating from it will not
1:10:00 lead to death these these definitely
1:10:03 some some pagan concepts which have
1:10:05 crept at least according to the quran
1:10:07 and the kid i think i think i'd like
1:10:09 according to necessity of reason and
1:10:10 what we know from
1:10:12 biology etc even if we interpret things
1:10:15 to divide this possible interpretation
1:10:17 of metaphorism this will not work there
1:10:20 and this one is really fundamentally not
1:10:22 acceptable
1:10:26 especially if we if we if if
1:10:28 if regard the quran is the revelation
1:10:30 but even if we don't forget the quran is
1:10:32 revelation let's assume it is an
1:10:33 ingenious construction by muhammad
1:10:36 definitely this man broke all
1:10:39 all
1:10:40 or records of of sophistication and
1:10:42 philosophy because with the insistence
1:10:46 of al-baqarah that adam has been taught
1:10:48 all names and the naming capability by
1:10:50 allah and even the angels were
1:10:51 challenged and they failed
1:10:53 to to to be equal to adam to disregard
1:10:56 that issue of the tree of knowledge and
1:10:58 the the
1:10:59 the the the fact that the knowledge is
1:11:01 somehow gaining knowledge is somehow
1:11:03 only possible in confrontation to god is
1:11:06 absolutely
1:11:07 reversed upside down it's what only said
1:11:09 completely so
1:11:12 so
1:11:13 that man must have been because this way
1:11:15 that man must have broken all records of
1:11:17 ingenuinity or he's a prophet it shows
1:11:20 your pick but at any way
1:11:22 that is a master stroke which cleans
1:11:24 that completely and get that out of the
1:11:27 way
1:11:28 we believe it's also our revelation well
1:11:30 it's another issue we discuss another
1:11:31 time
1:11:32 or without evidence and so on but in the
1:11:35 balance of evidences
1:11:37 that's that's really the clarification
1:11:39 of the quran in the slaughter baqarah
1:11:41 that he taught adam all names
1:11:44 which also all the old scholars
1:11:46 struggled with that what mean all names
1:11:50 means all names including
1:11:53 forever for all eternities i mean the
1:11:55 only
1:11:56 the only way to uh towards to give that
1:11:59 a reasonable sense is that he taught
1:12:01 adam how to name things he gave him the
1:12:03 capability of conceptual developments
1:12:06 obviously the quran addressing everyone
1:12:08 including a bedouin in his tent and
1:12:10 maybe uh a hunter gatherer in in his
1:12:13 forest in africa wouldn't say the
1:12:16 capability of conceptual development
1:12:18 such wording will not be understood by
1:12:20 anybody except by their most
1:12:21 sophisticated philosophy and that's not
1:12:24 the way revelation works liberation
1:12:26 should work that everyone understand and
1:12:28 take on board as much as possible of it
1:12:30 without
1:12:32 without
1:12:32 getting into the contradiction toward or
1:12:34 what was known by necessity of reason or
1:12:36 the necessity of perception and the
1:12:38 reality
1:12:39 and this is that's the correct
1:12:40 interpretations the capability of naming
1:12:42 and even some classical scholars said
1:12:44 that's the only meaning acceptable is
1:12:46 that he got the probability of naming
1:12:48 making developing concepts
1:12:50 like for example at that time there were
1:12:52 no holograms
1:12:54 there's no way we can ask adam to to
1:12:56 name a
1:12:57 hologram but
1:13:00 now we are able to develop a hologram
1:13:02 drive driver from hologram etc from
1:13:04 greek and so on to discover certain
1:13:06 phenomena which was unconceivable we
1:13:09 were the past but for us because we we
1:13:11 see that and we constructed it we are
1:13:13 able to give it a reasonable name or
1:13:14 should represent its reality or
1:13:17 refer to it or compare it to something
1:13:18 else or just an abbreviation maybe
1:13:21 constructing a word which originally has
1:13:24 no meaning but it refers to something uh
1:13:26 and you will find in the dictionary this
1:13:28 description and the word came from like
1:13:31 for example taking the first letters uh
1:13:33 for of over the sentence and putting it
1:13:36 as a word all of these are way of naming
1:13:38 and referencing and linguistic
1:13:39 referencing which we have the capability
1:13:41 as human beings by in inbuilt capability
1:13:45 of the mind
1:13:46 of the rationality
1:13:49 so that's that that part is definitely
1:13:51 has to be objected on in every ground
1:13:53 it's purely pagan and this does not make
1:13:55 any sense whatsoever
1:13:57 whatever you give it a metaphorical
1:13:59 explain explanation it contradicts
1:14:01 really the definition of god being being
1:14:03 necessarily existing being himself the
1:14:06 source of of knowledge and and system
1:14:09 and organization of the universe
1:14:11 so if there's any knowledge that comes
1:14:12 from him
1:14:15 ultimately
1:14:16 how he educated adam with that is it is
1:14:18 it metaphorical of
1:14:20 did he put him in a school educate him
1:14:22 the way we imagined education school
1:14:24 maybe or does it mean that he
1:14:27 fashioned his mind and his soul and his
1:14:28 spirit and his brain structure that he
1:14:31 can make conceptual maybe
1:14:33 but he educated him he's the ultimately
1:14:35 the the first educator
1:14:38 so a tree of knowledge is just a pure
1:14:41 pagan concept which comes from a concept
1:14:44 of the divine which definitely not a
1:14:45 concept of the divine in the old
1:14:47 testament as as extracted from all the
1:14:49 evidence of the old testament and the
1:14:51 new testament and islam definitely not
1:14:53 it's a pure pagan uh
1:14:57 non-revelation uh concept about god
1:15:00 about
1:15:01 or whatever his name there and here is
1:15:03 named god but after a few verses where
1:15:05 he will be recalled jahwa again okay so
1:15:08 carry on
1:15:10 so that must be objected to that must be
1:15:12 rejected and there must be also taken on
1:15:14 board as as as an evidence that that
1:15:17 description may be quite reliable in
1:15:19 historic aspects also in some
1:15:21 ideological and theological and
1:15:23 philosophical aspects but they are not
1:15:24 infallible
1:15:26 i think that's that we we have to come
1:15:28 to this conclusion otherwise we'll be
1:15:30 will be in in what will be will be
1:15:32 cornered we'll be in a situation which
1:15:34 is because i the
1:15:36 the claim that this stat tree is a tree
1:15:37 of knowledge and that it does to prevent
1:15:39 them from being from being knowledgeable
1:15:42 is contradict all the meaning of
1:15:44 of god's creation their diverse and god
1:15:46 absolute civility and dominance
1:15:49 okay cannot be accepted that's can't be
1:15:51 accepted that
1:15:52 and there's no way to give it any
1:15:53 metaphorical meaning because it's
1:15:55 whatever meaning you give it it's a
1:15:57 pagan one
1:15:59 okay carry on and
1:16:01 and then man gave names to all cattle
1:16:04 and to all
1:16:05 he practices oh yeah that's okay that's
1:16:07 no problem that's that's that's how the
1:16:09 how this this capability of naming has
1:16:11 been exercised that time definitely
1:16:13 that's okay so here the new professor
1:16:16 don't you think it's the similar thing
1:16:18 and and and the man gave names to all
1:16:22 cattle and the birds and the heavens
1:16:25 and to every beast of the field yeah but
1:16:28 man there was
1:16:29 not found a health meet for him so he's
1:16:33 also naming here he's also using this
1:16:36 but but this capability is somehow man
1:16:38 is using it but it's not mentioned
1:16:39 explicitly and the three is declared to
1:16:41 be a tree of knowledge you should not
1:16:43 eat it otherwise you you die or
1:16:45 something like that
1:16:46 okay it will clarify down so that is
1:16:49 mentioned but part of the story because
1:16:51 it is not mentioned that uh obviously
1:16:53 the quran adds to that that
1:16:55 allah gave him this explicitly which you
1:16:58 could say in the old testament implicit
1:17:00 because he that's the way it was created
1:17:02 allah gave him that you could say this
1:17:04 will create contradiction with the issue
1:17:06 of the tree of knowledge anyway
1:17:09 so that but in quran is really more
1:17:11 amplified that is even
1:17:13 regarded as a major point which may
1:17:16 which with which the angels were
1:17:18 challenged
1:17:19 obviously that's not mentioned there but
1:17:21 but you could say that that revelation
1:17:24 which came later is not at that time
1:17:26 because there are other aspects there
1:17:28 in the quranic creation story which are
1:17:30 definitely not in the old testament they
1:17:32 will not reveal the quran says clearly
1:17:34 you are not aware about these news i'm
1:17:35 giving it to you now but we will come to
1:17:37 that when you come to the
1:17:40 the quranic creation story
1:17:42 but here
1:17:43 it's okay there's no problem with that
1:17:45 but this this creates also as a more
1:17:48 class contradiction with the issue of
1:17:50 the territory of knowledge
1:17:52 and jehovah
1:17:55 now now the name of jehovah is used here
1:17:59 upon the man and he slept
1:18:02 which
1:18:03 one of his ribs and clothed up the flesh
1:18:06 is that thereof yeah you could say you
1:18:10 could say oh
1:18:20 not metaphorically is clearly physical
1:18:23 here
1:18:26 this is now born of my bones and flesh
1:18:30 of my flesh she shall be called woman
1:18:34 but she was taken out of man
1:18:37 therefore therefore shall a man leave
1:18:40 his father and his mother and shall
1:18:43 leave
1:18:44 unto his wife and they shall
1:18:48 be one flesh
1:18:50 both naked the man and his wife and
1:18:54 we're not ashamed yeah full stop was the
1:18:57 way in africa
1:18:58 uh
1:19:00 there are two things literally things
1:19:01 and uh and obviously that's the
1:19:04 uh i would say maybe this has a
1:19:06 prophetic root a prophet gave that to
1:19:08 give this as a metaphor for the close
1:19:11 relation between one and one but also
1:19:13 difference that there are certain
1:19:14 significant
1:19:15 differences in their nature
1:19:18 but the people expanded it and make it
1:19:20 made it physical and made it the reason
1:19:22 justification that because woman is part
1:19:25 of man
1:19:26 yeah
1:19:26 then uh obviously they will belong to
1:19:29 each other and they merge together etc
1:19:31 all of these things that's fine but uh
1:19:35 but but clearly uh i would say uh also
1:19:38 in islamic tradition some people also
1:19:40 came uh came with with that with a
1:19:41 similar point of view uh based on hadith
1:19:46 what had it says is clearly
1:19:50 a woman has been created from a crooked
1:19:52 drip let's see the point here is it that
1:19:54 shows that
1:19:55 the stress on a crooked rib
1:19:57 if you want to
1:19:59 if you if you want to straighten it you
1:20:01 will break it and it's breaking is a
1:20:03 divorce
1:20:05 so either you enjoy here
1:20:07 on crookedness or you are going to
1:20:09 divorce here
1:20:11 so the purpose of the hadith is clearly
1:20:12 metaphorical but the process of the
1:20:14 hadith is not the creation is it
1:20:16 metaphorical or not but he said
1:20:19 it's part of you part of your own nature
1:20:22 but it is
1:20:23 in some sense crook because the the the
1:20:25 under the the rib and it says that the
1:20:28 most crooked part of the rib is the high
1:20:30 at the top part of it that's where it
1:20:32 joins with the with the spinal cord with
1:20:34 the spinal cord we spoke about this in
1:20:36 the beginning
1:20:41 the most crooked part is the top part of
1:20:43 it
1:20:44 yes which meaning the the
1:20:45 the the way the the mind and the
1:20:48 feelings of the woman work is is is
1:20:50 having uh is relative to a man from one
1:20:52 point of view appears to be
1:20:55 crooked twisted
1:20:56 obviously from the other point of view
1:20:58 is the same woman would say the way man
1:21:00 thinks and feel is also twisted relative
1:21:02 to hair she regards herself as the
1:21:04 standard if you regard yourself as a as
1:21:06 the as the measuring stick then a woman
1:21:09 is is twisted cooked and the woman is
1:21:12 feeling god has
1:21:13 which is natural because you look to the
1:21:15 world from your own majestic stick the
1:21:16 way you think and and perceive a man is
1:21:19 obviously odd untwisted odd maybe odd is
1:21:21 a better name than twisted because
1:21:23 twisted having a very negative meaning
1:21:26 it's just odd this is different than the
1:21:27 straight line is
1:21:29 is is twisted
1:21:31 and the the and the hadith the main the
1:21:33 main purpose of the hadith the main
1:21:34 emphasis is not that it's really
1:21:36 physically created from a moral note is
1:21:38 simply is that
1:21:40 that's the situation as it is don't try
1:21:42 to straighten uh change the nature of a
1:21:45 woman and make her a man otherwise the
1:21:47 only way it will will work out is by the
1:21:49 divorce you will break it that's the
1:21:51 only way it will be broken you cannot do
1:21:53 it
1:21:53 so accept her as it is she has an
1:21:56 initiative for your point of view maybe
1:21:58 you're regarded as odd and crooked but
1:22:00 that's it enjoy life with her this way
1:22:03 otherwise it'll be the worst the same
1:22:04 for women obviously have life from the
1:22:06 other side but because usually men are
1:22:08 the ones who are having the divorce
1:22:10 power in islamic law but also
1:22:11 historically men are the one who are in
1:22:13 most of the time the one who break the
1:22:15 relation the one who are easy moving on
1:22:18 while women are having the relation much
1:22:19 deeper and much much more
1:22:23 completely absorbing
1:22:26 uh
1:22:27 a man is mentioned here as the primary
1:22:28 one
1:22:29 that's it so if you understand it this
1:22:31 way maybe some metaphorical like
1:22:34 metaphor like that is going back to some
1:22:36 prophet but the people again
1:22:37 misunderstood and expanded on it and and
1:22:40 try to make that uh
1:22:42 explain why man longs to be living with
1:22:45 a woman and they merge together and
1:22:46 produce children because it's part of
1:22:49 him but being
1:23:04 it's made from that one soul and also
1:23:07 classical scholars slide with that
1:23:10 and they
1:23:11 and they uh they
1:23:13 try to give it the interpretation
1:23:14 similar to this issue of crocodile
1:23:17 whatsoever i would say the better
1:23:19 implication is that the original
1:23:20 creation was not female or male it was
1:23:22 just one one one single cellular
1:23:25 entity and that developed then later
1:23:28 spread in male and female much later
1:23:30 that's the biggest for that one soul
1:23:33 it's split later on in the development
1:23:35 this is a hint also for the development
1:23:36 that originally the original biological
1:23:39 existence was
1:23:41 uh non-sexual non-gender
1:23:43 was neutral
1:23:45 and was procreating by iba sprouting or
1:23:47 by by by by split dividing and things
1:23:51 like that
1:23:52 but later on
1:23:54 much later in the in the in the
1:23:55 biological development then
1:23:58 both in plants and also in animal
1:24:00 kingdom there was a split into into male
1:24:03 and female because this obviously had
1:24:05 significant biological and and
1:24:08 and
1:24:09 developmental advantage
1:24:12 but this is
1:24:13 not sorry yeah so let me like i have um
1:24:17 two questions for you so one goes to
1:24:19 what you're discussing now but i want to
1:24:21 relate it back to
1:24:23 um
1:24:24 two things you skipped over in genesis
1:24:26 in the first chapter
1:24:28 and that had to do with um
1:24:31 the the verse that says
1:24:33 and we made
1:24:35 man in our likeness and image yeah and
1:24:38 if one were to compare
1:24:41 that scripture or the yes that verse to
1:24:45 what we're discussing now
1:24:47 they're very different ideas they are
1:24:49 very different
1:24:50 yeah um discussions about the nature of
1:24:53 man so the reason i mention this is
1:24:55 because
1:24:57 um if one were to take a look at um
1:25:00 other
1:25:02 uh let's say holy scriptures that that
1:25:04 contain those texts
1:25:07 they say that man was made
1:25:10 in the likeness
1:25:12 god made him into a man that's the just
1:25:15 as he made a fish and things of that
1:25:16 sort
1:25:17 and that implies a very different
1:25:19 connection between like the discussion
1:25:22 about
1:25:22 man being made like god
1:25:25 um and man being made in his own way and
1:25:28 so that's the first of the questions the
1:25:30 second question goes to something we
1:25:32 skipped over as well and that is the
1:25:35 discussion of about light
1:25:37 and genesis
1:25:39 so some will say that
1:25:41 we're talking about a physical kind of
1:25:43 light that's what most people say
1:25:45 some will say
1:25:48 yeah some will say we're talking about
1:25:50 the christ
1:25:51 some will say that we're talking about
1:25:55 a kind of people
1:25:57 who on the earth will connect
1:26:00 man to god himself like messengers or so
1:26:03 or people who bring the light of god to
1:26:05 the earth and he found that to be good
1:26:08 um but those are those are the questions
1:26:10 i have for you and i appreciate your
1:26:12 just
1:26:14 Music
1:26:15 the the the the first one there's not
1:26:18 very much controversy between obviously
1:26:21 islamic concept because there's one
1:26:22 hadith which seems to be acceptable in
1:26:25 matter of reference chain and so on but
1:26:26 it's not really an
1:26:28 authority which you can put it equal to
1:26:30 the quran
1:26:31 is that
1:26:32 that man is creating the image of the
1:26:35 merciful lord or something like that
1:26:39 and the classical interpretation is that
1:26:43 it's meant in the in the in the in the
1:26:46 spiritual and and
1:26:47 and the
1:26:48 um
1:26:52 because man is having having similarity
1:26:55 or like likeness to god in matter that
1:26:57 he has he has he has rationality or he
1:27:00 has mind and he has free will
1:27:03 these are two essential aspects which
1:27:05 distinguish
1:27:06 an incessantly existing being which is a
1:27:08 god supernatural person by
1:27:11 personal creator from a dead
1:27:14 deaf blind nature
1:27:17 which is i think all evidence to show
1:27:19 that this is existing we cannot be of
1:27:21 this type
1:27:22 by the cosmological argument but i think
1:27:25 also it is it will be possible
1:27:28 by just analyzing the concept and
1:27:30 improving on selma in ontological proof
1:27:33 that it's ontologically not possible
1:27:35 that necessary existing being will be uh
1:27:37 the way about because ancestors being uh
1:27:42 because we know that the universe and
1:27:43 parts of the universe and even the stars
1:27:45 and the galaxies and so on and anything
1:27:47 after the big bang assuming or whatever
1:27:50 at the beginning of the space and time
1:27:52 we know now even if we don't go to all
1:27:54 the way to the singularity but we know
1:27:56 all this is contingent and is being made
1:28:00 the question what is the maker is it
1:28:02 some kind of
1:28:03 necessary collection of initial
1:28:05 conditions and and
1:28:07 laws which someone can make all nature
1:28:09 quote unquote which will be necessarily
1:28:11 existing has to be there's no way that
1:28:13 contingency can come except if there's
1:28:15 necessarily existing being initiating
1:28:17 this contingency it's impossible the
1:28:20 question only there to be settled
1:28:23 or some ethics overlook because they are
1:28:25 simple-minded they don't they don't
1:28:27 indulge really in good deep
1:28:29 philosophical and and and uh
1:28:31 epistemological and anthological
1:28:33 discourse
1:28:34 is that is that entity acting by by uh
1:28:39 acting by by uh by necessity
1:28:43 so it is an entity which you cannot
1:28:44 describe as living not a person just by
1:28:47 by its own necessity of nature in that
1:28:50 case there is no need to describe such
1:28:52 entity anything like consciousness
1:28:54 knowledge or any personality is nature
1:28:56 let's call it give us justice that's
1:28:57 just a generic name nature
1:28:59 or it is an entity who is acting with
1:29:02 absolute freedom it has to be because
1:29:04 either
1:29:05 acting by necessity or acting ultimately
1:29:08 by absolute freedom
1:29:10 as an existing being it's a radical
1:29:12 either this or this contingent being can
1:29:15 be in between we we act sometimes by
1:29:17 necessity like some active activity
1:29:19 physical activities and so on and heart
1:29:21 beats and so on like necessity actually
1:29:23 we are not acting nature is acting in us
1:29:26 and some of action is as by free will
1:29:28 hopefully hopefully it's a genuine free
1:29:29 will
1:29:31 the only way to have guaranteed that our
1:29:33 free will is is real genuinely free is
1:29:36 by the scripture by believing that god
1:29:37 made it this way otherwise just by by
1:29:40 experimentation and physical
1:29:41 experimentation there's we cannot prove
1:29:43 it with certitude that it's really
1:29:44 genuinely free when maybe we are deluded
1:29:47 and in between and things in between
1:29:49 which is mix of this necessity dictates
1:29:52 some part and then we make sure the
1:29:53 choice is within the necessity that's
1:29:55 because we are convert contingent and
1:29:57 composed but instead of being is either
1:30:00 this or this
1:30:02 so
1:30:04 by definition a god has to be
1:30:07 a personal entity some someone who has
1:30:09 knowledge and some has
1:30:11 some sense of consciousness obviously
1:30:13 supreme consciousness and mind and
1:30:15 absolute free will
1:30:17 being uh may not be made in an image of
1:30:20 god meaning that we we may not have any
1:30:22 obviously the same divine knowledge or
1:30:24 the semen divine rationality but we have
1:30:26 a finite projection of that we don't
1:30:28 have the absolute free will of complete
1:30:30 sovereign free will absolutely
1:30:32 spontaneous and free but we have a
1:30:34 projection of the infinite to the finite
1:30:36 that meaning in in that's the only way
1:30:39 to understand give give some deep sense
1:30:41 to a man being made in the image of god
1:30:45 i i cannot conceive anything else no
1:30:47 then it can't be anything like that
1:30:50 related to the physical structure
1:30:51 because allah is not god does not have
1:30:53 any physical structure by by by by
1:30:55 necessity of the arena if if he exists
1:30:58 and he is the creator of the universe
1:30:59 and he is an entity completely about and
1:31:02 several from this material we know
1:31:06 that's right nor does he have a wife nor
1:31:08 were um women born out of him so that
1:31:11 they're very different than absolutely
1:31:13 completely
1:31:16 so there's no controversy at that point
1:31:18 uh the at the other point what was the
1:31:20 other point is the relating at the light
1:31:23 i the light could be some people could
1:31:25 see it really the the initial
1:31:27 burst of energy of the big bank
1:31:29 some people say maybe it's metaphorical
1:31:31 for christ maybe metaphorical for the
1:31:33 prophets and connection to god that's
1:31:35 that's that's a possibility that that's
1:31:38 without any uh in
1:31:40 in in
1:31:42 can can be interpreted metaphorically i
1:31:44 don't see very major point but
1:31:46 here if we go to chapter two again
1:31:49 but that's that area is also first it
1:31:51 needs some some further elaboration and
1:31:53 a little bit more philosophical depth
1:31:56 but here in in two one point you pointed
1:31:59 in one
1:32:00 in two they started they they they start
1:32:02 i think in in in verse six or something
1:32:05 using the name jehovah
1:32:08 have you noticed that
1:32:09 i i that that for those who
1:32:12 are indulged in literary criticism they
1:32:14 will tell you that chapter or this part
1:32:17 of the chapter must have been written by
1:32:20 people who are familiar with the name
1:32:21 jehovah which is obviously constructed
1:32:24 on the mount sinai with musa so it can't
1:32:26 be it could
1:32:28 it doesn't seem to be befitting uh for
1:32:31 for genesis which is supposed to be
1:32:33 containing information and narratives
1:32:35 from the previous prophets
1:32:37 from yourself
1:32:38 something
1:32:40 and the other part about it is that it
1:32:42 wasn't written for the the
1:32:45 um the idea of god
1:32:48 presenting himself for man wasn't
1:32:50 presented to one kind of people it was
1:32:52 presented to the humanity
1:32:54 so one once one starts to see that
1:32:58 um that idea has been crystallized into
1:33:01 their own conception of god then you
1:33:02 know tampering had to take place it just
1:33:05 yeah it had to yeah yeah and
1:33:08 um there's um
1:33:10 one biblical scholar who was a catholic
1:33:13 nun
1:33:13 uh and she left the church and she did
1:33:17 significant analyses of the bible itself
1:33:20 and she said it starts off
1:33:22 as this document that's an expression of
1:33:25 like everything that exists and it
1:33:27 quickly turns to a story about a family
1:33:31 this is
1:33:32 in this you know it's really talk about
1:33:35 jewish families after a while so one can
1:33:37 start to see that there's absolutely no
1:33:40 way that we can
1:33:41 we can say that this thing was not
1:33:43 written by men because it was it just
1:33:45 was and from a
1:33:47 a perspective and those people who had
1:33:50 um perspectives differed on what should
1:33:53 be written it was fascinating yeah yeah
1:33:55 we are right absolutely but also i
1:33:57 wouldn't go to extreme that it's
1:33:59 by being written by men that is all
1:34:02 falsehood and regional agents like some
1:34:03 new then scholarship
1:34:05 it should be a more reasonable point of
1:34:06 view men have written it
1:34:08 most in the most of the cases it is uh
1:34:11 they tried their best to to understand
1:34:14 what the previous prophets say than the
1:34:15 previous documents contained their best
1:34:17 or their in few cases they may be
1:34:19 mischievous deviations or partisanship
1:34:22 and so on and if we look at at this way
1:34:25 we we extract the maximum benefit from
1:34:27 it and avoid the pitfalls
1:34:30 but if we look at the extremes we will
1:34:32 get stuck in and some and some
1:34:34 insurmountable problems
1:34:37 i i think we have a good guide in this
1:34:38 regard the quran speaks of this as well
1:34:41 it talks about the existence of these
1:34:43 scriptures but um but for mutual um
1:34:47 jealousies or for um
1:34:50 selfish benefits the rabbis
1:34:55 either having some scripture
1:34:58 hurry up with like the points so we can
1:35:01 like covers at least half of the things
1:35:03 we
1:35:04 want to it's already like an hour and 30
1:35:07 minutes no problem
1:35:08 but i'm good i'm good this this
1:35:11 this this area we may we may have one
1:35:14 one session for it if you prepare
1:35:16 something in this direction also so you
1:35:18 can give us a summary and then we can
1:35:19 discuss also because we you should
1:35:23 you should
1:35:24 okay
1:35:25 i'm very i'm very happy to be milking
1:35:28 for you but sometimes you also milk and
1:35:29 give me to drink
1:35:31 yeah yeah
1:35:32 and also as
1:35:34 other people present is
1:35:36 perfectly good it's not it's not it's
1:35:38 not fair that one is all for all
1:35:51 a couple of things you know in mind and
1:35:53 i like i also sent you on telegram uh
1:35:57 like also some some questions from like
1:36:00 previous uh
1:36:01 uh discussions about free will and stuff
1:36:04 there is a collection
1:36:20 with a basic adam story and so on before
1:36:24 we get to the most difficult and deepest
1:36:26 issue
1:36:27 definitely yeah
1:36:28 but
1:36:30 just just one take
1:36:32 if we
1:36:33 if it's for an atheist really if because
1:36:37 he has to go back by this existing being
1:36:39 which is acting by necessity which we
1:36:42 call a nature which is a blind deaf
1:36:44 dead
1:36:46 entity but it is
1:36:48 supposed to be in statics i think it's a
1:36:50 contradictory concept and i think
1:36:52 i think i am i'm starting to develop but
1:36:54 i don't think
1:36:55 i will have enough time on life to to
1:36:57 develop it further but i will try to
1:37:00 phrase as much as possible so people can
1:37:02 develop it further also girder
1:37:04 girdle the famous mathematician and
1:37:07 philosoph also developed the one one
1:37:09 ontological proof but it seems to be
1:37:11 having deficiencies saint anselm roof
1:37:14 failed on the issue of modality and
1:37:16 things like that
1:37:17 but i have a deep feeling that it's a
1:37:19 necessary system being is by necessity
1:37:22 having absolute freedom otherwise
1:37:24 really action creation is not possible
1:37:26 but that has to be really developed into
1:37:28 a strong
1:37:30 technically solid argument
1:37:32 so but but if we assume atheism then
1:37:34 definitely atheists will not be able to
1:37:36 prove that there is free will there is
1:37:38 no way there's no way it's a delusion
1:37:41 because in a strictly
1:37:43 uh uh
1:37:44 the universe is going to unnecessary
1:37:46 being which is acting by necessity it
1:37:48 seems to be even such a universe could
1:37:50 not have even quantum fluctuation
1:37:52 which is the only way we can understand
1:37:54 that the brain in its extremely complex
1:37:57 inter
1:37:58 related like 10 to the 100
1:38:00 that's the big quadrillion
1:38:02 of interconnection that may be
1:38:05 lifting quantum fluctuation from the
1:38:06 level of the atom to the level of the
1:38:08 whole brain and then we may understand
1:38:11 really if we will say a bit not not
1:38:14 completely because it's a it's such such
1:38:16 a fundamentally divine concept
1:38:19 in its in its its pure form that is
1:38:22 will be never conceived by us completely
1:38:25 but at least we can get give it to give
1:38:27 it give it a try and and give it some
1:38:29 kind of evidence based on the physical
1:38:31 reality i think atheists will never be
1:38:33 able
1:38:34 there's no way
1:38:35 but
1:38:36 you know professor it's being attacked
1:38:38 from a divine simplicity way saying
1:38:41 you're not
1:38:42 like if you're gonna have this believe
1:38:44 your god is not divinely simple he's not
1:38:46 simple
1:38:48 this is the you know the the the problem
1:38:50 where
1:38:51 you know it's
1:38:53 well that's what we have to discuss when
1:38:54 we get to the issue of free will and
1:38:56 these attributes but let's try
1:38:59 i think we got a good time so still
1:39:01 maybe we'll if we can get go for a few
1:39:04 more verses see what's in so the problem
1:39:06 with the three of the knowledge i think
1:39:07 this is very pagan and it is regretful
1:39:10 that that somehow crept maybe people
1:39:13 with the best
1:39:14 intention thought that they they make an
1:39:16 explanation or make sense of human
1:39:18 history on human uh prisons in the world
1:39:21 and made this blunder this is a pure
1:39:23 pagan concept should not be accepted
1:39:27 so carry on and also the note that that
1:39:29 here they're starting the use of jehovah
1:39:31 so seems to be the writer is someone who
1:39:33 was familiar with with this divine name
1:39:36 which is definitely post the dialogue at
1:39:38 mount sinai
1:39:41 uh that's that's definitely that that
1:39:44 mirova i am who he is i am or he is who
1:39:48 is is his post
1:39:50 posted encounter at mount sinai between
1:39:53 musa and and this explicitly said there
1:39:55 what should i tell the people what's
1:39:57 your name tell them this and this and so
1:39:59 on that's that's it this is such a
1:40:01 structured story
1:40:03 well developed in such a way that
1:40:06 it can't be fabricated either completely
1:40:08 fabricated out of nothing or it has it
1:40:11 has an essential part and there's no
1:40:13 reason to believe it's fabricated
1:40:14 because completely innocent it doesn't
1:40:16 it doesn't address any any political or
1:40:19 any it's purely purely pure and
1:40:21 philosophical
1:40:23 it it stands all the scrutinies of of
1:40:26 of all
1:40:28 of all evaluation of such stories that
1:40:30 there is no reason for anybody to
1:40:31 fabricate that story it's completely
1:40:34 irrational to assume that
1:40:35 the only thing someone could say is that
1:40:38 musa has
1:40:39 lost his mind at mount sinai maybe he he
1:40:42 ate some some some uh
1:40:44 maybe he he ate some some opium or some
1:40:46 some some plant there which you figure
1:40:50 messed up his mind but he imagined that
1:40:53 but
1:40:54 musa himself is at his time and his
1:40:57 background as being a prince in egypt
1:40:59 and being maybe a military commander all
1:41:01 of these things does not seem to be have
1:41:03 the philosophical sophistication
1:41:05 background to invent this jehovah i am
1:41:07 the one who exists this is this is way
1:41:10 out of the league of musa so all of
1:41:12 these i think this story is is genuinely
1:41:15 good
1:41:16 and the
1:41:17 and the construction is genuinely first
1:41:19 time made at mount sinai
1:41:23 that's the best that's the best show so
1:41:25 you they use in this part meaning that
1:41:27 we at least this part or part of chapter
1:41:29 two
1:41:30 has been edited and written a little bit
1:41:32 later than maybe part one
1:41:34 in chapter one yeah uh the genesis three
1:41:37 is talking about like adam eating from
1:41:39 the tree we read from that or
1:41:42 continue yeah okay sure
1:41:44 this is genesis chapter three
1:41:46 okay okay
1:41:50 because we finished genesis 2. oh we
1:41:53 finished already
1:41:57 genesis 3. okay that's it
1:42:02 the story of the fall which obviously
1:42:04 the islamic
1:42:05 representation is completely different
1:42:07 than the
1:42:08 than the presentation is in in chapter
1:42:10 three
1:42:12 now the serpent was more subtle than any
1:42:15 beast of the field
1:42:18 which
1:42:19 jehovah god had made
1:42:22 and he said
1:42:23 unto the women
1:42:24 ye hath god said
1:42:27 ye shall not eat of any tree of the
1:42:30 garden
1:42:32 and the woman said unto the serpent
1:42:34 of the fruit of the trees of the garden
1:42:37 we may eat
1:42:38 but of the fruit of the tree which is in
1:42:41 the midst of the garden
1:42:42 god hath said
1:42:44 ye shall not eat of it neither shall ye
1:42:47 touch it
1:42:48 least ye die
1:42:50 and the serpent said unto the woman
1:42:53 ye shall not surely die for god doth
1:42:57 know that in the day ye eat thereof
1:43:01 then your eye shall be opened and
1:43:04 shall be as god knowing good and
1:43:08 evil and when the woman say that
1:43:12 so that the tree was good for food and
1:43:16 that it was a delight to the eyes
1:43:18 and that the tree was the desire to make
1:43:20 one voice she took of the fruit thereof
1:43:23 and the deed
1:43:25 she gave also into her husband with her
1:43:28 and he did it okay let's stop here as of
1:43:31 yeah
1:43:32 so
1:43:33 that's obviously completely from the
1:43:35 quran point
1:43:36 not acceptable that they said that
1:43:38 servant represents something like
1:43:40 satanic or something maybe but it seems
1:43:42 to be this seems to be
1:43:44 uh somehow
1:43:46 pagan symbolism
1:43:48 seems to be because actually the serpent
1:43:51 yes people have have some some
1:43:53 psychological aversion against snakes
1:43:55 and things like that and serpents
1:43:57 uh
1:43:58 because
1:43:59 they are quite hidden and they they they
1:44:01 call at night most of the time and they
1:44:03 feel you are bitten by one especially
1:44:05 the high poisonous one you are
1:44:07 essentially gone and but
1:44:09 if you look at the general situation in
1:44:11 the quran
1:44:13 if there is any who are mentioning of
1:44:15 the snake or serbat is only the the
1:44:17 stick of moses was transformed as a
1:44:19 miraculous
1:44:20 sign for their own and to us into a into
1:44:23 a snake serpent
1:44:26 so it is it's not something negative
1:44:28 something rather positive
1:44:30 either
1:44:31 secondly also later on i think in
1:44:33 deuteronomy we find that that in the ark
1:44:35 of covenant
1:44:36 that or or on the entrance of of
1:44:39 of the
1:44:40 timber temple which was just just just
1:44:43 just a covered place with with the with
1:44:45 the uh with just leaves and so on on top
1:44:47 of it alish
1:44:48 the alicia musa that entrance they have
1:44:50 a symbol of a serpent it's claimed which
1:44:53 is strange but and the people struggled
1:44:56 some of the interpreters together what
1:44:58 where does this servant came from is it
1:45:00 an egyptian symbol we know that the
1:45:02 serbian is an egyptian symbol but in
1:45:04 egypt we know that in
1:45:06 the pharaohs they have they they have
1:45:09 around the head and in front of of their
1:45:12 head
1:45:13 like the throne-like structure they have
1:45:15 on top of their head they have also a
1:45:17 serban there so seems like a royal
1:45:20 symbol
1:45:21 rather than something negative
1:45:23 so it's strange how where this servant
1:45:25 came representing something satanic or
1:45:27 something deceptive or or mischievous
1:45:30 obviously there's no mention of any
1:45:32 servant in the quran about that nor in
1:45:34 the hadith whatever they are
1:45:36 by the way there's barely any hadith in
1:45:38 this area and many of the narration
1:45:40 which some of them coming from abu
1:45:42 huraira
1:45:43 suspicious that they maybe have taken
1:45:45 from kabbalah and they are imported from
1:45:47 the old testament so there's a question
1:45:49 mark of this but the quranic text is
1:45:51 clearly it is it talks about the devil
1:45:54 and before that there's a story with the
1:45:56 devil and the challenge about which is
1:45:58 mentioned the quran the first time the
1:46:00 quran says clearly this is a great news
1:46:02 but which you are not aware i was not
1:46:05 present when there was a dispute in the
1:46:07 supreme presences or in the in the upper
1:46:09 leadership of the universe
1:46:11 about the creation of man when allah
1:46:13 ordered the angels to to prostrate to
1:46:16 adam uh
1:46:18 in acknowledgement of his own to honor
1:46:21 him and acknowledge him and the devil
1:46:22 refused to acknowledge him
1:46:24 and then the dispute started
1:46:27 so that's this number one and obviously
1:46:29 the devil was because he refused to obey
1:46:32 the divine command was cast out of of of
1:46:35 heaven cursed and cast out
1:46:37 before and then he was out of revenge
1:46:40 and because he was on the challenge he
1:46:41 said okay
1:46:42 according to the quran he said
1:46:45 give me just respite let me live until
1:46:47 the day of judgment because it was so
1:46:49 clear that the devil
1:46:51 whatever it is is a symbol of evil or
1:46:53 what is a genuine demonic entity
1:46:56 that's we can we we can't be liberal in
1:46:59 that this is not as fundamental as many
1:47:01 people think but let's assume a real
1:47:03 entity some kind of a demonic uh entity
1:47:06 which has sufficiently uh capability of
1:47:09 reasoning and capability of of
1:47:11 of of of free choice that they
1:47:14 that he objected to the divine
1:47:16 injunction and
1:47:19 disobeyed the command he said okay
1:47:22 this one you have made
1:47:24 give more honor and respect than myself
1:47:27 if you give me respite until the day of
1:47:29 judgment i will be able to get the
1:47:31 majority of his descendants of his
1:47:33 children
1:47:35 my side and they will not find them
1:47:38 appreciating you as you're their lord
1:47:39 and creator
1:47:42 and allah said god go ahead go ahead
1:47:44 we'll see for you the hellfire will be
1:47:46 waiting for you and those who follow you
1:47:48 in the in your deception and i ignore
1:47:50 that that they uh that that uh that god
1:47:54 is their their friend and accept to
1:47:56 follow their enemy who's the devil
1:47:58 so that's that's obviously completely
1:48:00 different so there's no servant and no
1:48:02 beside also it
1:48:04 is very difficult to have any
1:48:07 deep rationale for representing the
1:48:09 devil what
1:48:10 the early writer represented by the
1:48:12 servant which is uh
1:48:14 somehow
1:48:16 being declared he his so evil
1:48:18 while uh at least in the egyptian
1:48:20 tradition at that time and also the fact
1:48:22 that there's at the stake of moses 10th
1:48:24 in the sermon which is also mentioned
1:48:26 the old testament very clearly no doubt
1:48:28 about that
1:48:29 is is actually not necessarily that
1:48:32 negative or that although that
1:48:35 or that
1:48:36 despicable it may be more closer to our
1:48:38 royal symbol
1:48:40 anyway but it's just a small remark i
1:48:42 don't know where this
1:48:45 is it maybe a babblionic myth we don't
1:48:47 know yeah it seems to be in and then
1:48:50 i'm not familiar with the babylonic
1:48:52 myths about servants and so on maybe
1:48:53 they are negative in babylon but in
1:48:55 egypt it doesn't seem to be uh that is
1:48:57 as a royal symbol it does not seem to be
1:49:00 that negative
1:49:01 or that satanic
1:49:03 that's number one secondly the major
1:49:06 point which is will be pleasing for uh
1:49:09 if there's a
1:49:10 feminist
1:49:11 present in the audience you would be
1:49:13 happy to hear that and the quran is
1:49:15 clearly that the whispering of the devil
1:49:18 uh
1:49:20 i will mention first the fact that the
1:49:21 whispering of the devil the
1:49:22 communication was by whispering by by by
1:49:26 let's say uh some kind of a subtle
1:49:29 inspiration
1:49:30 like what what what usually uh
1:49:33 the quran exists as well
1:49:35 like i said if you
1:49:37 whisper some in someone's ear that's
1:49:38 called
1:49:39 or if you feel something in your heart
1:49:41 which is which is not clear but you have
1:49:44 you have doubts and it goes back and
1:49:46 forth that's called
1:49:47 oreo for example what example
1:49:50 is like obsession for example some
1:49:52 people
1:49:55 hear stories about about uh cavities and
1:49:58 mouth diseases and so on and they get
1:50:00 very few people they get in what's
1:50:01 what's that they have a brush
1:50:02 continuously and they're brushing
1:50:04 continuously i hear the story about one
1:50:06 lady who's got that was
1:50:08 to the level that she was brushing
1:50:10 almost every few 15 20 minutes and then
1:50:13 her boyfriend or husband was going
1:50:15 behind we are trying to catch every
1:50:17 brush and every toothpaste and dump it
1:50:19 in the rubbish
1:50:21 but there's not a way to get her out of
1:50:23 the way so this is so the devil was with
1:50:26 her but there was also it was not to the
1:50:27 woman the woman was not in the beginning
1:50:29 the quran everything was done directly
1:50:32 to adam and adam is the one the
1:50:34 recipient of the wasa the adam is the
1:50:36 one who had been misled and the adam who
1:50:37 committed the first sin not the woman
1:50:39 the woman is completely uninvolved and
1:50:42 that the only thing is that she followed
1:50:44 him and
1:50:45 to state it differently
1:50:49 she
1:50:50 he the one betrayed here not she he
1:50:52 betrayed him
1:50:53 to summarize
1:50:55 now
1:50:56 the content of the was was also is
1:50:58 radically
1:51:00 different in in in the quran but this is
1:51:02 built on the previous claim that
1:51:04 that this tree is the tree of knowledge
1:51:07 and the devil came with that at the
1:51:09 confrontation known as the three of the
1:51:11 then you will know the difference
1:51:12 between good and evil
1:51:14 and this is according to uncompletely
1:51:16 not the case even not the devil using
1:51:18 that
1:51:18 yeah actually the devil is more
1:51:20 intelligent than that what he used is
1:51:22 that use the
1:51:23 fundamental human weakness
1:51:25 the desire for eternity the fear of
1:51:27 death which is instinctively built in
1:51:30 which
1:51:31 contains various things first of all
1:51:33 that adam is aware about death
1:51:35 and he knows that he is mortal and he is
1:51:37 aware about his mortality
1:51:38 so what he told him listen
1:51:41 this three
1:51:43 will give you eternal life
1:51:46 so we'll become like the angels or
1:51:48 something like that
1:51:50 and you will have dominion on a kingdom
1:51:52 forever but the most it's in it is the
1:51:55 whole this is a tree of eternal life
1:51:57 three of long or eternal life
1:52:01 so
1:52:03 there are fundamentally different
1:52:05 several
1:52:08 fundamental differences between the
1:52:09 quranic story and the
1:52:11 current story first of all
1:52:12 the the story of the
1:52:14 prostration of the angels for adam and
1:52:16 so under the rebellion of iblees is not
1:52:18 mentioned at all it's not mentioned here
1:52:19 in the old testament but that's that's
1:52:22 no problem with that because the quran
1:52:23 says clearly that story was not revealed
1:52:26 before this is a great news about whom
1:52:28 you are not aware i i tell the people i
1:52:31 wasn't aware i wasn't president when
1:52:33 there was a dispute in the called
1:52:35 the supreme
1:52:37 audience or the supreme prisons divine
1:52:40 prisons
1:52:41 when the lord said when uh say i'm
1:52:44 creating a man
1:52:46 who's complication of the material he
1:52:47 created from etc and
1:52:50 when when i when i finish creating him
1:52:52 and blowing him my spirit
1:52:55 fall all of you are frustrating for him
1:52:58 as as a as a whole notification
1:53:01 and then all the angels obliged all of
1:53:03 them without exception except one
1:53:05 who was counted under them he may be an
1:53:07 angel
1:53:08 a quran says he is a form of jinn but
1:53:10 the jinn does not exclude that be an
1:53:12 angel by the way just a small remark for
1:53:13 those who struggle maybe with the first
1:53:16 year uh
1:53:17 to to
1:53:20 uh which how come that that
1:53:23 that
1:53:25 and they'll call us called is police
1:53:26 that he
1:53:28 he is he is he is addressed under the
1:53:31 angels definitely because the order was
1:53:33 to the angels so he's the one counted
1:53:34 under them but the quran says clearly
1:53:36 that he was from the jinn
1:53:38 the general mean the hidden ones the
1:53:40 demonic ones
1:53:42 the the best the best uh circularization
1:53:44 or explanation is that for abbas is that
1:53:47 the j that the gin is uh the the the
1:53:49 angels are kabila from jin it's a
1:53:51 subcategory of the jin so there there is
1:53:54 there's a subcategory who are pure and
1:53:57 unable to disobey the command and
1:53:59 possibly they are half mechanical let us
1:54:02 say that
1:54:03 and another one which has
1:54:05 is more sophisticated more capable of
1:54:07 saying yes and no underwear
1:54:08 and this from them is released but when
1:54:11 when but he was adjoined to the angels
1:54:13 because they they belong to the same
1:54:15 let's say in energy time or light type
1:54:18 roots or fire types or energy type
1:54:22 this is obviously a very uh involved
1:54:25 area about what real the reality of
1:54:26 angels and jinn and so on even though it
1:54:28 was discussed in the ancient islamic
1:54:29 history are they the angels really
1:54:32 responsible beings which are just for
1:54:34 commands or they are just our
1:54:35 semi-mechanical beings now is it there's
1:54:37 considerable uh scholarship which claims
1:54:40 they are not having a complete free will
1:54:42 and uh and not complete capability of
1:54:46 conceptual development which is
1:54:47 indicated by the adam story and uh what
1:54:50 what what their reality they are made
1:54:52 from light what's meaningful light is a
1:54:54 pure energy some kind of
1:54:56 but light again sometimes is used
1:54:58 metaphorical for something opposite to
1:55:00 matter some kind of spirituality
1:55:02 it's i think it's a it's uh
1:55:04 it's uh uh not very wise to indulge in
1:55:07 that
1:55:08 for us because we are going to the basic
1:55:11 things of the of the meaning of human
1:55:13 existence uh these these issues about
1:55:15 the nature of the angels and the demons
1:55:17 and so on i think
1:55:20 we could somebody could indulge in
1:55:22 studying that
1:55:24 if it is done in a reasonable and
1:55:25 objective way question is it possible to
1:55:27 do something objectively there
1:55:31 i i will just throw something for for
1:55:33 for you to to think about
1:55:36 what's about maybe an interpretation
1:55:38 that
1:55:39 angels are because many many of the
1:55:41 classical scholars compare them like to
1:55:43 the wind and the power of of uh like for
1:55:46 example claiming that michael is the
1:55:47 responsible for the growing of the
1:55:48 plants and for uh et cetera at this age
1:55:51 responsible for this and this what if it
1:55:54 is talking up to about certain fields or
1:55:56 forces of universe or even even further
1:55:59 was about
1:56:00 it is really indicative of
1:56:03 dark matter and dark energy
1:56:06 which we don't know very much about
1:56:07 don't you think they are personal maybe
1:56:10 maybe
1:56:11 who said the dark matter that knowledge
1:56:13 is not personal but that but the angels
1:56:15 are definitely not fully personal
1:56:18 because clearly they they they cannot
1:56:20 disobey
1:56:22 and clearly from they they they don't
1:56:24 have a conceptual development capability
1:56:27 and naming capability
1:56:30 according to the quran so clearly they
1:56:32 they lack certain things in this
1:56:34 department
1:56:36 maybe they have a limited amount of that
1:56:37 but it's not enough to be and also maybe
1:56:39 they don't have the free will even to
1:56:41 disobey a lot they they kind of disobey
1:56:43 what wasn't wasn't ableist like uh
1:56:47 iblis is clearly is clearly from from
1:56:49 in general since under the gender title
1:56:51 but some as he been abba said it is
1:56:54 it is uh
1:56:56 whether malaya as a kabila as a
1:56:58 sub-category or a sub-tribe uh of the of
1:57:01 the jinn anyway i would say
1:57:03 the
1:57:04 studying that in that in this way
1:57:07 the scripture does not give us material
1:57:11 is it possible maybe to to connect them
1:57:13 with something like like dark energy and
1:57:15 things like that no no i'm just
1:57:17 speculating
1:57:19 i'm just speculating because this is
1:57:21 this is an area which is obviously
1:57:23 obviously materialistic
1:57:25 philosophies and and it is philosophy
1:57:27 we'll deny that to say the demons
1:57:29 although these fiction of the
1:57:30 imagination and so on but but we we
1:57:33 definitely have considerable evidences
1:57:36 for so-called spiritual and
1:57:38 psychological phenomena that they exist
1:57:41 although the interpretation are quite
1:57:43 difficult but their existence is is
1:57:45 established i think with substitute so
1:57:47 they are stuck also in that that
1:57:48 category
1:57:50 and the research ongoing universe has
1:57:51 done for over a hundred years hundred
1:57:53 almost 150 years and set a department
1:57:55 for psychologies in various places
1:57:58 in the world and even even the american
1:58:01 department of defense
1:58:03 engaged in certain experiments about
1:58:05 these things but they didn't find them
1:58:07 useful for military purposes and high
1:58:10 precision action but it
1:58:12 it
1:58:13 it's believed that these phenomena exist
1:58:16 with certitude and even like
1:58:18 communication like telepathy also does
1:58:20 exist but accuracy is not enough for
1:58:22 military purposes
1:58:24 and things like that but anyway there's
1:58:26 an
1:58:27 area the whole diff separate area i
1:58:29 would say separate that
1:58:31 but don't get stuck in in in
1:58:34 in in
1:58:35 imagination of that we are dealing with
1:58:37 some some kind necessary by
1:58:39 that being who shall has complete
1:58:41 rationality and complete free
1:58:44 free of free choice and
1:58:47 that's completely responsible and things
1:58:48 like that seems to be we're dealing with
1:58:50 some other kind of entities
1:58:53 does it synchronize anything we know in
1:58:55 the material universe maybe not maybe
1:58:56 something non-material
1:58:59 and still exist
1:59:00 i usually give an example for these
1:59:02 things but just an example to bring
1:59:04 things closer to the mind is that like
1:59:06 like
1:59:07 like something like a computer program
1:59:09 together with this data
1:59:11 it can be installed in in in in a in a
1:59:14 machine and runs and then you copy it
1:59:17 and go to another machine and try it
1:59:18 runs similarly if the machine is having
1:59:21 the basic necessary characteristics
1:59:25 and the basic operating system there
1:59:28 and this is not material but still it
1:59:30 exists it has certain exist existence
1:59:33 it reflects it it appears as electric
1:59:36 electric charges and circuitry in in
1:59:39 and opening and closing gates and
1:59:41 circuitry but this is the opening
1:59:43 circuit the physical opening and closing
1:59:45 of gates is not the program itself
1:59:48 it's how the quran realized physically
1:59:50 but the column has has an existence it
1:59:52 has an existence in the mind of the
1:59:53 programmer it has existence as as a set
1:59:56 of commands written in a certain
1:59:58 computer language possibly
2:00:01 it's very difficult to analyze these
2:00:02 things
2:00:04 but anyway we're not concerned with the
2:00:05 interests that concern with adam so in
2:00:08 the in in chapter three
2:00:10 we have uh we have definitely
2:00:13 complete
2:00:14 let's say
2:00:16 contradiction between the quran and
2:00:18 almost completely context with the quran
2:00:19 and the creation story
2:00:22 and as we are
2:00:24 we have this issue there is this the
2:00:26 dark story of the servant
2:00:28 the the missing of belgium or the devil
2:00:31 there at all all the servants seems to
2:00:33 be have converted into a devil later on
2:00:36 but it seems to be
2:00:37 really the the
2:00:41 the animal is
2:00:43 the animal is the one who who
2:00:46 uh who is really meant some people try
2:00:49 to
2:00:50 put that story in
2:00:52 in some kind of circularization claiming
2:00:53 actually the the devil was was talking
2:00:56 through the serpent that that's physical
2:00:59 but was possessed by the devil or
2:01:00 something like that i think this is all
2:01:02 will not really
2:01:04 help in in analyzing the story uh
2:01:08 in the sense that
2:01:10 that we are dealing i think with with
2:01:12 some pagan elements going there
2:01:14 uh it's not uh
2:01:17 they try to expand on the generals
2:01:20 general statement of the the chapter one
2:01:23 and two
2:01:24 but then
2:01:26 and then weave in certain things which
2:01:28 uh fits the
2:01:31 later scholarship or later parties and
2:01:33 direction and so on clearly uh
2:01:36 a
2:01:37 story is so framed that women are
2:01:39 regarded as the culprit one as a as as
2:01:42 the negative one which have to blame for
2:01:44 all the calamities and
2:01:46 and thus punished by what the punishment
2:01:48 will come later
2:01:49 which is definitely about the quran
2:01:51 absolutely rejected
2:01:54 actually the name of the woman even is
2:01:55 not mentioned the quran the name eve is
2:01:58 the wishes come by peoples talked about
2:02:00 even
2:02:01 arabic it's not a quranic name i i'm not
2:02:04 even sure that even any hadith came with
2:02:06 the name of of the mother of humanity or
2:02:09 in in any sense
2:02:11 and any reliable hadith you can rely on
2:02:13 hold with iron fist i don't think
2:02:18 does not say that their names exactly
2:02:20 that that's that's also the story other
2:02:22 this comes again in another chapter we
2:02:24 may but this is a secondary point
2:02:26 because the fundamental philosophical
2:02:28 issues are really with adam and his wife
2:02:30 after that these are reactively
2:02:32 secondary points we can if you think
2:02:34 it's worth but i would say
2:02:36 we we wanted to go through that to see
2:02:39 where is the difference between and then
2:02:40 if we check the quranic
2:02:42 text and see there are clear hints and
2:02:45 strong very strong pointer toward the
2:02:48 theory of evolution but but but this is
2:02:50 only let's say a and a relatively small
2:02:53 by-product i think the
2:02:55 the issue of philosophical
2:02:57 and fundamental issues like the issue of
2:02:59 the devil and the snake the issue of
2:03:02 woman being responsible for the fall
2:03:04 primal responsibility while according
2:03:06 the quran it's adam everywhere adam is
2:03:09 mentioned even says adam disobeyed his
2:03:11 lord
2:03:14 then he repented that his lord adopted
2:03:15 him after that
2:03:19 and guided him further but
2:03:21 no mention of the woman
2:03:23 only that they were expelled together
2:03:25 that's it so she should have a poor
2:03:27 woman was really is the one who has been
2:03:30 uh betrayed and let down by adam not
2:03:33 opposition so that's
2:03:34 i think this would sound very great for
2:03:36 feminists i don't care if they sound
2:03:38 great or not i think i think the quranic
2:03:40 story is the correct one i think i
2:03:42 believe family is the correct one and
2:03:43 it's one which fits with that with the
2:03:46 with any reasonable rationality even if
2:03:48 we even if we go to a purely
2:03:51 materialistic background clearly in the
2:03:54 early
2:03:55 emergence of humanity
2:03:57 we know that the ancient generation of
2:03:59 humans
2:04:00 is almost certainly it was male
2:04:03 dominated anyway
2:04:05 because if you look at
2:04:06 similar or close or close creature to
2:04:09 human like like chimpanzees abes
2:04:11 gorillas and so on all of them are main
2:04:13 dominated male dominated
2:04:16 female completely undominated there's no
2:04:18 no way that these jokes or all these
2:04:20 primates can
2:04:22 can mislead the husband husband is the
2:04:24 one
2:04:25 the man now the male is the one who is
2:04:27 in command and the one in charge and the
2:04:29 one is dominating
2:04:30 so it does not fit with any physiology
2:04:32 not revolution not with anything and
2:04:36 and
2:04:37 not with the reality
2:04:38 even
2:04:41 so that's that's the second point to it
2:04:42 will be to to be uh
2:04:45 to be here and the third point is that
2:04:47 when they ate they recognized that they
2:04:49 are naked
2:04:50 and they started they started uh
2:04:56 they started uh
2:05:00 yeah
2:05:00 they started covering themselves that
2:05:02 seems to be similarly in the quran but
2:05:05 not because it's the tree of knowledge
2:05:07 it seems to be
2:05:09 this way with committing the sin they
2:05:12 they they became they came away about
2:05:14 their nakedness or something like that
2:05:16 but this is uh this has to be also
2:05:19 studied more
2:05:21 more to see if it is if it is if there
2:05:23 is if there is
2:05:24 maybe an explanation of
2:05:27 the emergence of like like intrinsic
2:05:30 shame or intrinsic before that it seems
2:05:33 to be that something like that did not
2:05:35 exist
2:05:36 and
2:05:36 and people and we still have some hunter
2:05:39 gatherers who go naked around and they
2:05:40 don't regard it as a problem so it is
2:05:44 that emergence is is related to uh to
2:05:49 to committing the first act which is
2:05:50 against the divine command or something
2:05:52 like that but i did not i did not
2:05:54 indulge in that very much in detail but
2:05:57 it's
2:05:59 it seems to be the story in the old
2:06:01 testament and the quran they have
2:06:03 similarity but not exactly the same
2:06:05 so i would say
2:06:07 i think we should not exceed time very
2:06:09 much because everyone will be tired but
2:06:12 we stopped i would say
2:06:14 obviously than the punishment and so on
2:06:16 that the woman will have a difficulty in
2:06:18 childbirth as well this is all this is
2:06:20 all obviously an attempt to explain a
2:06:23 child death and bleeding and all these
2:06:24 things which is you know physiologically
2:06:27 impossible and contradictory reality
2:06:29 that's not true
2:06:30 that's that's uh this is clearly
2:06:32 contradicting the physiology and the
2:06:34 physical reality and
2:06:36 and uh
2:06:37 is an ancient attempt to understand that
2:06:40 and attributed to the woman we even
2:06:42 accusing the woman of being the one who
2:06:44 uh
2:06:45 like uh
2:06:47 the one who betrayed that literally came
2:06:49 from her side is again not true because
2:06:50 of this usually i say women they are
2:06:52 women are the one who are the first
2:06:54 traitor and things like that in reality
2:06:56 it is
2:06:57 it is uh
2:06:59 and the first traitor will be here eve
2:07:01 but the reality is is that's not true
2:07:03 that's hasn't it all of this is
2:07:04 something just dictated by some maybe
2:07:07 later scholarship butcher
2:07:09 which you
2:07:11 wanted the korean woman further and
2:07:14 enforce male dominance by inventing such
2:07:16 stories which we shall use obviously to
2:07:19 to subdue women even i think most jewish
2:07:22 women and now they call them insist they
2:07:24 call the cares
2:07:26 because there's a tough regulation
2:07:27 causing menses and purity and things
2:07:29 like that which goes to extreme
2:07:32 and just justified by by by such stories
2:07:37 and also the fact that there will be
2:07:38 enmity between one and woman who said
2:07:40 all of these things that's not true but
2:07:42 i think i think we we we we ought maybe
2:07:45 to continue next week
2:07:47 and uh like like like mid chapter three
2:07:50 like number or which number we reached
2:07:52 after 13 14 15. we finished we finished
2:07:55 chapter two
2:07:56 two events and three we we i said we
2:07:58 like ten
2:08:00 ten about ten okay noted down a
2:08:02 continuous shallow yeah
2:08:05 i will try to be to be a little bit
2:08:07 analytic and slow
2:08:08 i think this is good because there are
2:08:09 many things to to be and that will
2:08:11 they'll go to the creation story in the
2:08:13 quran and will show that
2:08:16 that which have been overlooked by
2:08:17 classical scholarship in many areas
2:08:20 there are very strong and very
2:08:22 structured hints towards evolution
2:08:25 or and clear which clearly undermined
2:08:27 the claim that the creation of adam was
2:08:29 suddenly in in a few seconds or
2:08:31 something it could be very well over
2:08:32 billions of years without any question
2:08:35 without any of that
2:08:38 without any contradiction to the quran
2:08:39 or without any contribution to even the
2:08:41 physical realities as far as we know
2:08:43 them by by the fossil record and so on
2:08:46 which which strengthen the theory
2:08:48 evolution some people can say we don't
2:08:50 have still
2:08:51 some of these miscellaneous missing
2:08:52 links we don't have let's say but i
2:08:54 think
2:08:55 the
2:08:56 total accumulated evidences for
2:08:58 evolution
2:08:59 and the foster record and so on
2:09:01 although we don't have
2:09:03 anywhere like the missiling between
2:09:05 between two species maybe species can
2:09:07 there's one event just to mention it
2:09:10 quickly before i forget there's one
2:09:12 event in
2:09:13 in
2:09:14 of of news pieces emerging almost
2:09:16 spontaneously
2:09:18 in in in near near boulder in colorado
2:09:22 and one area there where the the
2:09:24 students in the agriculture department
2:09:26 and biology and so on used to scan and
2:09:29 and collect samples of plants etc and
2:09:32 that that that practice was ongoing all
2:09:35 the 18th century
2:09:36 from the beginning of the 18th century
2:09:39 all the way until the end of the 18th
2:09:40 century so from 18 10 15 all the way
2:09:44 until
2:09:45 now or mid-century because i think the
2:09:48 university was established around the
2:09:49 city of the one in boulder colorado
2:09:52 the university of colorado there it's
2:09:54 it's like 1850 that someone can check
2:09:56 the date anyway
2:09:57 and they were intensively covering that
2:09:59 area so that area was regarded as
2:10:01 completely
2:10:03 scant
2:10:04 and the
2:10:05 the records of all animals there
2:10:07 especially over plants and subplants and
2:10:09 subspecies and so on
2:10:11 races abrasives were known so a complete
2:10:15 list of
2:10:16 of species of there
2:10:19 have been recorded
2:10:20 and then suddenly around the tail of the
2:10:22 saints last century like
2:10:24 1903 something like that
2:10:27 a group of students went out to collect
2:10:29 samples just as a part of their study
2:10:32 classical standard study
2:10:34 and these samples just just as a field
2:10:37 training not to detect any new species
2:10:40 whatsoever because all species have been
2:10:41 listed and studied thoroughly over the
2:10:44 last 50 years
2:10:45 and yes so to be under to be assumed
2:10:48 that there's no species have been missed
2:10:51 they were surprised to have a numerous
2:10:52 number of new species there which were
2:10:54 not recorded before and the only
2:10:56 conclusion which makes good sense or
2:10:58 this is the
2:11:00 there may be other conclusion
2:11:02 is that
2:11:03 they have been emerged spontaneously a
2:11:05 new species with different number of
2:11:06 chromosomes and so on spontaneously
2:11:09 several not only one so it is possible
2:11:13 that uh that
2:11:14 going from this resource it could be by
2:11:16 a jump
2:11:17 by one good mutation which is very rare
2:11:19 maybe this this happening in 1903 or our
2:11:22 1903 maybe doesn't happen except now
2:11:25 once in a 50 million years 50 million
2:11:27 years 30 million years and it happened
2:11:29 by for our good luck or by divine design
2:11:32 so that we know how things happen
2:11:34 and
2:11:35 obviously someone could say maybe these
2:11:37 pieces the seeds were dormant for 40 50
2:11:40 years and they emerged but it doesn't
2:11:41 look like that the natural species and
2:11:43 the way they see it produce and they
2:11:45 re-emerge every year and they're still
2:11:47 continuously available until now the
2:11:49 same ones and this they persist mixed
2:11:51 with the other ones so they have been
2:11:53 added to the list
2:11:54 so this may show that an emergency
2:11:57 species that we may have a lucky and
2:11:58 good
2:11:59 good
2:12:00 mutation which reduce our new species
2:12:04 spontaneously obviously nothing
2:12:05 spontaneously if you look in the holy
2:12:07 and various schemes also by permission
2:12:08 and the will of god definitely
2:12:10 but
2:12:12 it can happen
2:12:13 so searching maybe says thinking that we
2:12:16 must have like a like a a missing
2:12:19 missing uh
2:12:21 uh connection or something like that is
2:12:23 is is not very rational but it may it
2:12:25 may happen like this
2:12:27 it may have been the
2:12:28 the design of the of the cellular
2:12:30 structure how it is initiated by allah
2:12:33 from the beginning of the universe and
2:12:34 then from the beginning of the earth uh
2:12:36 which is only four and a half five
2:12:38 billion years back the universe is about
2:12:40 14 13 i think 0.709 or something like
2:12:44 that
2:12:45 the design is so that it's capable of
2:12:46 doing that
2:12:48 i don't see that's that's a major
2:12:49 obstacle
2:12:51 that's it so i i would say
2:12:54 but we'll come to that shall in more
2:12:55 details when we finish the chapter three
2:12:58 and then we go to the quranic issues and
2:13:00 then maybe
2:13:01 this way we could say that the issue of
2:13:03 creation and i think i think the
2:13:05 the the conflicts between creationism
2:13:08 and evolution i think it's a fake
2:13:09 conflict it's our own conflict
2:13:12 it's not a correct one there's no reason
2:13:13 for that at all
2:13:15 and the under the fear of many people
2:13:17 that that creation that evolution may be
2:13:20 maybe used to undermine the belief in
2:13:22 god is a mistake based on the on the
2:13:24 wrong understanding that belief in god
2:13:26 is founded on that the man is created
2:13:28 suddenly or created 6000 years ago or a
2:13:30 billion years ago this is all not really
2:13:32 but relevant is that how the whole
2:13:34 reality of the universe has emerged
2:13:36 is it is it a
2:13:38 is it by by
2:13:40 a dead
2:13:42 deaf blind nature or it is a
2:13:45 a a a supreme being who is
2:13:49 who is
2:13:50 who is who's who is a was a
2:13:53 personality who has free will and then a
2:13:55 sovereign free will in the case of the
2:13:57 selection mean and comprehensive
2:13:59 knowledge
2:14:00 misfitting got suitable for the
2:14:02 self-existing being this is the only
2:14:04 issue to be settled and has nothing to
2:14:06 do with evolution revolution how the
2:14:08 universe evolves or not evolve which
2:14:09 structure it is this is all done by the
2:14:13 idea by by the divine choice because
2:14:15 it's contingent i believe it's firmly
2:14:17 contingent so it has to be chosen by by
2:14:19 a chooser
2:14:20 by a
2:14:22 rational
2:14:23 fully rational fully
2:14:25 fully free fully sovereign shoulder not
2:14:28 by a dead nature which cannot act i
2:14:30 believe unless a dead nation cannot act
2:14:34 and necessarily exist being acting by
2:14:36 necessity is an internal contradiction
2:14:38 but
2:14:40 bringing that exposing that completely
2:14:42 needs really a well-developed pro uh
2:14:45 structured evidence which i don't have
2:14:47 yet but i think it can be developed and
2:14:49 this would be the way to uh to
2:14:52 transfer the sent answers through from
2:14:55 from the one who's failed because of the
2:14:57 modality of the issue of existence to
2:14:59 the one which works
2:15:01 because of the fundamental necessities
2:15:03 and attributes of necessary existing
2:15:05 beings
2:15:06 i think this this may work insha'allah
2:15:08 okay
2:15:10 i hope
2:15:12 uh we benefited something today we went
2:15:14 a little bit like in small steps but i
2:15:16 think sometimes small steps are very
2:15:18 beneficial
2:15:19 to create a general uh image
2:15:23 of a complex issue
2:15:26 and i said well thank you will complete
2:15:29 next week
2:15:30 this is beautiful
2:15:32 yeah it's beautiful that's beautiful
2:15:34 next next
2:15:35 you're brilliant a brilliant man you
2:15:37 really are and i think um
2:15:39 your value to
2:15:41 to us is underappreciated so i'll be
2:15:43 with you and in may we wake up so that
2:15:45 we can better understand the things that
2:15:46 you um
2:15:48 you desperately
2:15:54 prepare something and then maybe in a
2:15:55 couple of sessions we will go back to
2:15:57 that and benefit from
2:15:59 another source another way of thinking
2:16:01 also
2:16:10 next time it will be one hour earlier
2:16:11 seven london time or universal time yeah
2:16:16 tell everyone so the people around us
2:16:18 one hour earlier because it seems to be
2:16:20 better for
2:16:21 for the majority of people in the middle
2:16:23 east it is not that late is good and i
2:16:26 think
2:16:27 for uh the brothers and sisters across
2:16:29 the ocean what will be the time will be
2:16:31 two o'clock afternoon yeah it's fine i
2:16:33 think because instead of three two
2:16:35 anyway it will saturday people should do
2:16:38 their shoppings and whatever they do
2:16:40 in the morning and then the afternoon
2:16:42 will be
2:16:43 beneficial for whatever
2:16:45 can be used for for further
2:16:49 educational and spiritual development
2:16:52 seven is good seven universal time is
2:16:55 good i am happy with that
2:17:10 Music
2:17:16 Music
2:17:46 my
2:17:47 Music
2:17:56 so
2:18:08 Music
2:18:17 you