New Christian Series 2: The Trinity (2021-11-29) ​

0:00:01 this is uh my second video in this new
0:00:04 series on christian theology the last
0:00:07 video was on the holy spirit this one is
0:00:10 on the christian doctrine of the trinity
0:00:13 why do this well i think there's a lot
0:00:16 of perhaps uh crude caricaturing and
0:00:18 straw manning and just misrepresentation
0:00:22 when it comes to key christian doctrines
0:00:24 in the wider world particularly on
0:00:25 social media so i wanted just to
0:00:28 establish using reliable mainstream
0:00:31 academic work
0:00:33 what the doctrines are
0:00:35 and also to complement that with some
0:00:38 comments from islamic and jewish sources
0:00:40 on these very same doctrines just to add
0:00:43 an abrahamic interfaith kind of context
0:00:46 for our uh discussion and of course we
0:00:49 can go and make our own minds up as well
0:00:52 so for this series i'm going to be
0:00:53 drawing mainly on this book christian
0:00:55 theology and introduction by professor
0:00:58 alistair mcgrath he's a professor at
0:01:00 oxford he's one of the world's leading
0:01:02 protestant theologians he's fairly
0:01:04 evangelical this textbook is used in
0:01:07 many university courses throughout the
0:01:09 world and i would say it's probably
0:01:11 underground first year undergraduate
0:01:13 level so it is a little bit demanding
0:01:15 but it is meant to clarify and introduce
0:01:17 the subject in an objective way and i
0:01:19 think he does that although his bias as
0:01:21 a christian is evident
0:01:23 um as i read it i'm going to pepper it
0:01:25 here and there with a few comments uh
0:01:27 hopefully of a clarificatory nature
0:01:30 where perhaps he's not as clear as he
0:01:32 might be
0:01:33 so i'm going to start with chapter 13
0:01:35 entitled the trinity before i go on to a
0:01:38 muslim
0:01:39 reflection on the same subject by a
0:01:41 cambridge professor
0:01:43 so alison mcgrath writes
0:01:46 the doctrine of the trinity is widely
0:01:49 regarded as one of the most difficult
0:01:51 aspects of christian theology many who
0:01:54 are new to the study of theology find
0:01:56 the doctrine perplexing not just those
0:01:59 who are new by the way
0:02:01 this subject sets out to introduce this
0:02:03 tricky yet immensely important doctrine
0:02:07 explaining carefully why it is such a
0:02:09 fundamental aspect of the christian
0:02:12 vision of god and i would say here yes
0:02:15 this is important to establish what
0:02:17 christians actually mainstream
0:02:18 christians actually do believe about
0:02:20 this doctrine
0:02:21 rather than crude caricatures or straw
0:02:25 men which are so often found
0:02:27 he continues
0:02:28 because of the difficulty of the idea we
0:02:31 will spend more time examining its
0:02:33 foundations and origins than normal by
0:02:36 the end of this discussion you will
0:02:38 hopefully feel more confident about this
0:02:40 doctrine in terms of understanding both
0:02:42 the reasons why christians believe it
0:02:45 and the various ways they have developed
0:02:47 of explaining it and i think mcgrath
0:02:49 does a good job doing this but this is
0:02:51 actually quite a substantial chapter so
0:02:53 i'm going to hopefully do two videos the
0:02:56 first one the introductory material and
0:02:58 then a second video which takes us into
0:03:00 deeper waters into the technical
0:03:02 vocabulary and the historical
0:03:04 development of the doctrine which are
0:03:06 equally important in my view
0:03:08 so alistair mcgrath says approaching the
0:03:10 christian doctrine of the trinity
0:03:13 a number of readers will uh approach
0:03:16 this chapter with some hesitations
0:03:19 mainly many of which may reflect
0:03:21 anxieties about the subject's apparent
0:03:24 irrationality
0:03:26 how did the christian church come to
0:03:28 regard such a counter-intuitive notion
0:03:31 as the trinity as fundamental to its
0:03:34 vision of god so mcgrath he was
0:03:36 acknowledging
0:03:38 that people find it counterintuitive in
0:03:40 other words incoherent or
0:03:41 self-contradictory but you know how is
0:03:44 this the case and is it really
0:03:45 contradictory he will argue that it's
0:03:47 not
0:03:48 we may begin by considering some
0:03:50 expressions of anxiety about the
0:03:52 doctrine and then move on to consider
0:03:55 how these can be met
0:03:58 and then the subheading the apparent
0:04:00 illogicality of the doctrine notice the
0:04:03 apparent illogicalities he's saying is
0:04:05 not illogical
0:04:07 thomas jefferson died in 1826 the third
0:04:11 president of the united states was one
0:04:13 of the leading critics of author
0:04:15 orthodox christian theology in the early
0:04:18 19th century
0:04:20 he reserved most of his ferocious
0:04:23 criticisms for the doctrine of the
0:04:25 trinity
0:04:26 these mystical insanities sorry
0:04:29 metaphysical insanities
0:04:31 he declared hindered the religious
0:04:33 growth of humanity in that they
0:04:36 represented quote relapses into paganism
0:04:40 differing from paganism only by being
0:04:42 more unintelligible
0:04:44 unquote
0:04:45 so why has christianity persistently
0:04:48 upheld such a doctrine
0:04:51 the fundamental issue here is the
0:04:53 inability of human language to do
0:04:55 justice to the transcendent by the
0:04:58 transcendent he means the divine he
0:05:01 means god basically so human language
0:05:03 can't
0:05:04 accurately uh and fully describe god
0:05:07 mcgrath claims
0:05:09 human language finds itself pressed to
0:05:12 its limits when trying to depict and
0:05:14 describe the divine
0:05:17 words and images are borrowed from
0:05:19 everyday life and put to new uses in
0:05:22 attempts to capture and preserve
0:05:25 precious thoughts into the nature of god
0:05:29 the christian understanding of both
0:05:31 divine and human natures is such that if
0:05:35 it is right
0:05:36 we are unable to grasp the full reality
0:05:39 of god
0:05:41 can a human mind ever hope to comprehend
0:05:44 something which must ultimately lie
0:05:47 beyond its ability to unfold
0:05:50 when i began my study
0:05:53 of theology at oxford back in the 1970s
0:05:56 mcgrath writes
0:05:57 i was taught early medieval theology by
0:06:00 edward j
0:06:02 arnold he died in 2002 a jesuit scholar
0:06:06 at campion hall
0:06:08 as we walked to his room together we
0:06:10 passed a large painting depicting an old
0:06:13 man in conversation with a young boy by
0:06:16 the seashore
0:06:18 what was it i asked
0:06:20 and so i was told the famous story about
0:06:23 augustine of hippo he died in 430 a.d
0:06:27 who was particularly noted for his
0:06:29 massive treaties on the trinity
0:06:32 dealing with the mystery of god
0:06:35 perhaps in the midst of composing these
0:06:37 treaties i was told augustine found
0:06:40 himself pacing the mediterranean
0:06:43 shoreline of his native north africa not
0:06:46 far from the great city of carthage
0:06:49 while wandering across the sand he
0:06:51 noticed a small boy scooping water
0:06:54 seawater into his hands and pouring as
0:06:57 much as he could hold into a hole in the
0:07:00 sand puzzled augustine watched as this
0:07:04 action was repeated again and again
0:07:08 eventually his curiosity got the better
0:07:10 of him
0:07:11 what he asked the boy did he think he
0:07:13 was doing
0:07:15 the reply probably perplexed augustine
0:07:17 still further the youth told him that he
0:07:19 was busy emptying the in the ocean into
0:07:22 the small cavity he had scooped out in
0:07:25 the hot sand
0:07:27 augustine was dismissive how could such
0:07:30 a vast body of water be contained in
0:07:33 such a small hole
0:07:35 the boy was equally dismissive in return
0:07:39 how could augustine expect to contain
0:07:42 the vast mystery of god in the mere
0:07:45 words of a book
0:07:48 the story illustrates one of the great
0:07:50 central themes of christian theology and
0:07:53 spirituality alike that there are limits
0:07:56 placed upon the human ability to grasp
0:07:59 the things of god
0:08:01 our knowledge of god is accumulated
0:08:03 sorry is accommodated to our capacity
0:08:06 our knowledge of god is accommodated to
0:08:09 our capacity as writers from augustine
0:08:12 to calvin have argued
0:08:14 god knows the limitations placed upon
0:08:17 human nature which after all is a divine
0:08:20 creation
0:08:21 god therefore both discloses divine
0:08:24 truths and enters into our world in
0:08:28 forms that are tempered and adapted to
0:08:31 our limited capabilities and
0:08:34 competencies
0:08:36 for augustine the point was simple
0:08:39 si comprehendes non este deus
0:08:42 that's latin a loose translation is if
0:08:45 you can get your mind around it it's not
0:08:48 god
0:08:49 it's a great little uh maximum
0:08:51 he didn't mean that belief in god was
0:08:53 contrary to reason rather reason was too
0:08:56 limited to grasp the fullness of the
0:08:58 majesty and glory of god
0:09:02 our thoughts about god are bound to seem
0:09:04 illogical and muddled precisely because
0:09:08 what they refer to
0:09:10 lies beyond our full knowledge and
0:09:12 understanding
0:09:14 for augustine any attempt to reduce god
0:09:17 to the intellectually manageable
0:09:19 distorts god
0:09:21 we need to open up our minds to the
0:09:24 greatness of god rather than did you
0:09:26 reduce god to something that we can cope
0:09:29 with
0:09:30 so it seems here that mcgrath is setting
0:09:32 up the reader to expect
0:09:34 due to our limitations human limitations
0:09:37 in our language of god that we should
0:09:39 expect perhaps to find uh the concept of
0:09:42 god in the trinity apparently incoherent
0:09:44 or inconsistent or self-contradictory we
0:09:46 should expect to see that kind of um
0:09:50 bewilderment given the otherness and
0:09:52 majesty and greatness of god so this is
0:09:53 a almost an apologetic setup i would
0:09:56 suggest here
0:09:57 leading us into the acceptance of the
0:10:00 doctrine of the of the trinity but
0:10:02 anyway i anticipate he goes on the swiss
0:10:05 protestant theologian emil brunner who
0:10:08 died in 96 1966
0:10:10 took a similar view arguing that the
0:10:13 trinity was really quote a protective
0:10:16 doctrine
0:10:17 designed to safeguard the rich christian
0:10:20 understanding of god from well-meaning
0:10:23 attempts to reduce or simplify it
0:10:26 the trinity was not itself revealed in
0:10:29 the bible so this is incredible crucial
0:10:31 point here the trinity itself bruno
0:10:34 admits and mcgrath goes on to admit as
0:10:36 well is not actually taught in the bible
0:10:40 the trinity was itself
0:10:42 not uh revealed in the bible but was the
0:10:45 result of serious reflection on what was
0:10:48 implied by the biblical proclamation in
0:10:51 greek kerygma kerygma is a bit of
0:10:54 academic jargon uh scholars talk about
0:10:56 the kerygma of the early church the
0:10:58 preaching of the early church the
0:11:00 proclamation
0:11:02 and then mcgrath quotes emil brunner
0:11:05 here
0:11:06 the doctrine of the trinity is the
0:11:08 product of reflection and is not the
0:11:11 kerygma so this is not the teaching of
0:11:13 the early church the kerygma
0:11:15 is god revealed in christ
0:11:18 christ the genuine revelation of god
0:11:21 the doctrine of the trinity however is
0:11:24 not itself biblical
0:11:27 but is the result of theological
0:11:30 reflection upon the problem that is
0:11:33 necessarily raised by the christian
0:11:35 kerygma
0:11:37 end quote
0:11:39 mcgrath continues traditionally
0:11:40 christian theology has been well aware
0:11:43 of its limits and has sought to avoid
0:11:46 excessively confident affirmations in
0:11:48 the face of mystery yet at the same time
0:11:53 christian theology has never seen itself
0:11:55 as totally reduced to silence in the
0:11:58 face of divine mysteries
0:12:01 nor has it prohibited intellectual
0:12:03 wrestling with mysteries that might be
0:12:06 destructive or detrimental to faith and
0:12:08 here by the way this concept of mystery
0:12:10 i hear this all the time myself it's
0:12:12 very important when you come up against
0:12:13 doctrine of trinity
0:12:15 sooner or later this word is invoked
0:12:17 it's a mystery and i don't mean that in
0:12:19 a polemical way i'm just this
0:12:21 observationist description of what i see
0:12:23 all the time mystery is a key word in
0:12:26 understanding our approach to the
0:12:28 doctrine
0:12:29 and then he says as the 19th century
0:12:31 anglican theologian charles gore
0:12:34 insisted and he quotes gore now
0:12:37 human language never can express
0:12:40 adequately divine realities
0:12:42 a constant tendency to apologize for
0:12:45 human speech a great element of
0:12:47 agnosticism and awful sense of unfathom
0:12:51 unfathomed depths beyond the little that
0:12:54 is made known
0:12:56 is always present to the minds of
0:12:58 theologians who know what they are about
0:13:01 in conceiving or expressing god in other
0:13:05 words there's a great deal of hesitancy
0:13:06 and uncertainty almost agnosticism
0:13:10 when theologians speak of god christian
0:13:12 theologians speak of god
0:13:14 we see says saint paul in a mirror in
0:13:17 terms of a riddle we know in part
0:13:22 that's another quote from paul
0:13:24 we are compelled complains saint hillary
0:13:27 to attempt what is unattainable to climb
0:13:31 where we cannot reach to speak what we
0:13:34 cannot utter
0:13:36 instead of the mere adoration of faith
0:13:38 we are compelled to entrust
0:13:41 the deep things of religion to the
0:13:44 perils of human expression
0:13:47 so instead of just a merely adoring god
0:13:50 we are we must
0:13:52 entrust the deep things of religion to
0:13:54 the perils of human expression we can't
0:13:57 help but use language inadequately and
0:14:00 it's a perilous business when speaking
0:14:02 of god it's a mystery
0:14:03 and uh
0:14:05 we're attempting to speak of what is
0:14:06 unspeakable here's me paraphrasing what
0:14:09 i think is being said here
0:14:11 alison mcgrath continues a perfectly
0:14:13 good definition of christian theology is
0:14:17 taking rational trouble over a mystery
0:14:20 again this concept of mystery is key
0:14:22 here
0:14:23 recognizing that there may be limits to
0:14:25 what can be achieved but believing that
0:14:28 this intellectual grappling is both
0:14:30 worthwhile and necessary
0:14:33 theology is confronted with something so
0:14:35 great that we cannot fully comprehend it
0:14:38 and so must do the best we can with the
0:14:41 analytical and descriptive tools at our
0:14:44 disposal
0:14:46 and then he continues
0:14:48 trinity the trinity as a statement about
0:14:50 jesus christ
0:14:52 the distinctively christian doctrine of
0:14:55 god took shape in response to a question
0:14:58 about the identity of jesus christ and
0:15:01 this is the origins really
0:15:03 the seed of the doctrine in this section
0:15:06 the development of the doctrine the
0:15:07 trinity is best seen as organically
0:15:10 related to the evolution of christology
0:15:14 christology is the doctrine of study of
0:15:16 christ his nature is being his purpose
0:15:20 as we noted earlier a patristic
0:15:23 consensus emerged patristic means this
0:15:25 is taught by the early fathers of the
0:15:27 church the bishops the theologians of
0:15:30 the early of the first three fourth
0:15:31 centuries of the church
0:15:33 as noted earlier a patristic consensus
0:15:36 emerged
0:15:37 that jesus was quote of the same
0:15:40 substance homo uscios
0:15:42 as god this
0:15:44 mcgrath here is referring to the counts
0:15:46 of nicaea of course in 325
0:15:49 a.d
0:15:51 so he's talking about this consensus
0:15:53 about jesus being of the same substance
0:15:55 as god rather than just being of similar
0:15:58 substance herm or you see us
0:16:01 there's only one letter letter i
0:16:04 difference between homorusios
0:16:06 of the same being or substance
0:16:10 with the i in it there's one letter
0:16:12 added that means of similar substances
0:16:14 not the same but similar
0:16:16 so the church rejected the similar and
0:16:20 opted for the same so jesus is actually
0:16:22 god himself the same being as god
0:16:24 himself
0:16:26 continue
0:16:27 but if jesus was god in any meaningful
0:16:30 sense of the word what did this imply
0:16:32 about existing notions of god because of
0:16:34 course the original christians were jews
0:16:36 they believed in the shema here at
0:16:38 israel the lord our god is one
0:16:41 if jesus was god were there now two gods
0:16:45 or was a radical reconsideration of the
0:16:48 nature of god appropriate so do we
0:16:50 rewrite the creed
0:16:53 historically it is possible to argue
0:16:56 that the doctrine of the trinity is
0:16:58 closely linked with the development of
0:17:00 the doctrine of the divinity of christ
0:17:03 the more emphatic the church became that
0:17:05 christ was god the more it came under
0:17:08 pressure to clarify how christ related
0:17:12 to god
0:17:14 if the word
0:17:15 capital w if the word had not been made
0:17:18 flesh
0:17:19 there would have been no stumbling block
0:17:22 for jewish monotheism
0:17:24 so this is a an illusion to the
0:17:26 beginning of john's gospel in the
0:17:27 beginning was the word the word was with
0:17:29 god the word and the word became flesh
0:17:31 and dwelt among us
0:17:33 and he's saying here that if this had
0:17:35 not been the case there would be no
0:17:37 problem for jewish monasteries implying
0:17:39 that there is a problem for jewish
0:17:41 monotheism it's interesting what groth
0:17:43 is doing here
0:17:45 trinity is a statement about the
0:17:47 christian god he says it is generally
0:17:49 agreed that the doctrine of the trinity
0:17:51 emerged from the distinctively christian
0:17:53 understanding of the identity of jesus
0:17:56 christ
0:17:57 the incarnation
0:17:59 by the way i'll do a separate video on
0:18:00 this god willing the incarnation a
0:18:03 concept we considered in some detail in
0:18:06 chapter 10 of this book which we haven't
0:18:08 covered on any video yet of course does
0:18:10 not simply concern the identity of jesus
0:18:13 of nazareth
0:18:14 it also concerns the distinctive nature
0:18:17 and character of the god who became
0:18:20 incarnate in jesus of nazareth
0:18:24 the doctrine of the trinity can thus be
0:18:26 seen as an attempt to describe
0:18:28 faithfully a god who while remaining
0:18:30 transcendent
0:18:32 also became incarnate in christ
0:18:35 and
0:18:36 more than that who now dwells within
0:18:38 believers in the holy spirit
0:18:41 i did a separate video on the holy
0:18:43 spirit before
0:18:45 now the last section here um i'm going
0:18:48 to touch on
0:18:49 um is the biblical foundations of the
0:18:52 doctrine of the trinity according to
0:18:53 mcgrath he says there are key biblical
0:18:57 foundations
0:18:58 um justifications of the doctrine found
0:19:00 in the old and the new testament so he
0:19:02 makes some bold claims here
0:19:04 at first sight he writes
0:19:06 there are only two verses in the entire
0:19:08 bible which are explicitly trinitarian
0:19:12 matthew 28 19 which reads
0:19:15 go therefore and make disciples of all
0:19:17 the nations baptizing them in the name
0:19:20 of the father and of the son and of the
0:19:23 holy spirit
0:19:25 and 2 corinthians 13 13
0:19:29 the grace of the lord jesus christ the
0:19:31 love of god and the communion of the
0:19:33 holy spirit be with all of you end quote
0:19:37 both these verses have become deeply
0:19:40 rooted in the christian consciousness
0:19:43 the former on account of its baptismal
0:19:46 associations
0:19:47 and the latter through the common use of
0:19:49 the formula in christian prayer and
0:19:52 devotion
0:19:53 yet these two verses taken together or
0:19:56 in isolation can hardly be thought of as
0:19:59 constituting a doctrine of the trinity
0:20:02 so he's very clear here that these are
0:20:04 not adequate basis for the doctrine the
0:20:06 trinity you know on the contrary i
0:20:08 normally hear just that from christians
0:20:10 that these are perfectly good bases for
0:20:13 the doctrine treasury but says no he has
0:20:15 other bases apart from on addition to
0:20:17 these however he writes the biblical
0:20:20 foundations of adoption do not lie
0:20:22 exclusively in these two verses but in
0:20:25 the overall pattern of divine activity
0:20:28 to which the new testament bears witness
0:20:31 so he says it's found everywhere and in
0:20:33 the old testament as well it's a really
0:20:35 bold claim but let's see what he says
0:20:38 the father is revealed in christ through
0:20:41 the spirit so this is he's setting up
0:20:43 the theme
0:20:44 according to the new testament the
0:20:45 father is revealed in christ's spirit
0:20:48 across all the letters this is what you
0:20:49 find he says
0:20:51 not just the letters the gospels as well
0:20:54 there is the closest of connections
0:20:56 between the activities of father son and
0:21:00 holy spirit in the new testament
0:21:01 writings
0:21:03 time after time new testament passages
0:21:06 linked together these three elements as
0:21:08 part of a greater whole
0:21:11 the totality of god's saving presence
0:21:13 and power can only it would seem be
0:21:16 expressed by involving all three
0:21:19 elements
0:21:21 and then he goes on to quote from uh
0:21:22 several letters i'll just give you the
0:21:24 brief references see 1 corinthians
0:21:27 chapter 12 verses 4 to 6
0:21:30 galatians chapter 4 verse 6
0:21:33 ephesians chapter 2 verses 20 to 22
0:21:37 2 thessalonians chapter 2 verses 13 to
0:21:40 14 and titus
0:21:43 chapter 3 verses 4 to 6.
0:21:46 i'm not going to read all these passages
0:21:47 out you can obviously stop the video and
0:21:49 have a look for yourself he continues
0:21:52 the same trinitarian pattern is
0:21:54 anticipated in the old testament
0:21:57 three major personifications of god can
0:22:00 be discerned within its pages he argues
0:22:04 which naturally naturally lead on to the
0:22:07 christian doctrine of the trinity so the
0:22:09 trinity that is kind of implied in the
0:22:12 old testament he claims
0:22:14 in three major personifications so the
0:22:17 first one he mentions
0:22:19 is wisdom
0:22:21 this personification of god is
0:22:23 especially evident in the wisdom
0:22:25 literature such as job proverbs and
0:22:28 ecclesiastes these are books in the old
0:22:31 testament you can go and read them
0:22:34 the attribute of divine wisdom is here
0:22:37 treated as if it were a person hence the
0:22:40 idea of personification
0:22:43 with an existence apart from yet
0:22:46 dependent upon
0:22:48 god
0:22:49 wisdom who is always treated as female
0:22:52 incidentally is portrayed as active in
0:22:56 creation fashioning the world in her
0:22:58 imprint
0:23:00 uh and he references job chapter 28
0:23:03 proverbs chapter 1 verses 20 to 23 and
0:23:08 ecclesiastes chapter 2 verses 12 to 17.
0:23:13 the second of these major
0:23:14 personifications is the word of god
0:23:18 here the idea of god's speech or
0:23:21 discourse is treated as an entity with
0:23:24 an existence independent of god yet
0:23:27 originating with god
0:23:30 the word of god is portrayed as going
0:23:32 forth into the world to confront men and
0:23:35 women with the will and purpose of god
0:23:38 bringing guidance judgment and salvation
0:23:42 and he recites psalms
0:23:44 119
0:23:46 verse 89
0:23:48 psalm 147
0:23:50 verses 15 to 20 and isaiah 55 verses 10
0:23:55 and 11.
0:23:57 the third
0:23:58 personification which he sees as a kind
0:24:00 of implicit trinitarian doctrine in the
0:24:03 old testament is the spirit of god
0:24:07 the old testament uses the phrase the
0:24:09 spirit of god to refer to god's presence
0:24:12 and power within the creation
0:24:16 the spirit is portrayed as being present
0:24:18 in the expected messiah isaiah 42 1-3
0:24:23 and as being the agent of a new creation
0:24:26 which will arise when the old order has
0:24:29 finally passed away and he references
0:24:32 ezekiel chapter 36 verse 26
0:24:35 and
0:24:36 chapter 37 verses 1 to 14.
0:24:41 these three hypostasis hypostasizations
0:24:45 mispronounce that of god to use a greek
0:24:48 origin word in place of the more
0:24:50 mainstream english personification so
0:24:53 the greek word basically means
0:24:55 personification
0:24:57 do not amount to a doctrine of the
0:24:58 trinity in the strict sense of the term
0:25:01 says mcgrath
0:25:03 rather they point to a pattern of divine
0:25:06 activity and presence in and through
0:25:08 creation in which god is both imminent
0:25:11 and transcendent so he's both close and
0:25:14 far off he's both with us and utterly
0:25:17 transcendent
0:25:19 a purely unitarian conception of god was
0:25:23 ultimately inadequate
0:25:25 to contain this dynamic understanding of
0:25:27 god
0:25:28 expressed in the doctrine of the trinity
0:25:32 the doctrine of the trinity can be
0:25:33 regarded as the outcome of a process of
0:25:36 sustained and critical reflection on the
0:25:39 pattern of divine activity revealed in
0:25:42 scripture
0:25:43 and continued in christian experiences
0:25:45 not just
0:25:46 what he thinks is trinitarianism in the
0:25:48 bible implicit but also in the lived
0:25:52 experience of christians in liturgy and
0:25:54 worship and prayer and so on as the
0:25:56 generations pass on
0:25:59 that is not to say that
0:26:01 scripture contains or expresses an
0:26:04 explicit doctrine of the trinity no it's
0:26:07 not very open and clear perhaps rather
0:26:11 scripture bears witness to a god who
0:26:12 demands to be understood in a
0:26:14 trinitarian manner
0:26:16 we shall explore the evolution of the
0:26:18 doctrine and its distinctive vocabulary
0:26:21 in what follows now i'm going to end it
0:26:24 there
0:26:25 because the next section is called the
0:26:26 historical development of the trinity
0:26:28 which is very important but um this
0:26:31 video is going to be too long by the way
0:26:33 so
0:26:34 i'm going to leave it there for mcgrath
0:26:36 and i'm now going to turn
0:26:39 to another view of exactly the same
0:26:41 subject by uh a contributor to this
0:26:44 volume now the author of this chapter uh
0:26:46 is a man called timothy winter he's a
0:26:48 professor at university of cambridge he
0:26:50 teaches islamic studies
0:26:52 and he was invited as i said in the
0:26:54 previous video where i also quoted him
0:26:56 then
0:26:57 to
0:26:58 this muslim scholar an englishman
0:27:00 was invited to contribute a chapter on
0:27:03 the trinity in a book entitled debating
0:27:07 christian theism by many distinguished
0:27:10 philosophers or all of him a christian i
0:27:12 think apart from
0:27:13 timothy winter
0:27:15 so here's just a few comments uh on this
0:27:18 subject of the trinity which i think are
0:27:19 helpful now he's writing in a very
0:27:21 elevated academic style so i may need
0:27:23 just to clarify a few points um but what
0:27:27 he says i think uh is
0:27:30 a quintessentially um a very scholarly
0:27:33 and respectful muslim response to this
0:27:35 understanding that we've just heard from
0:27:38 mcgrath about the trinity
0:27:40 so on page 353
0:27:42 uh professor timothy winter writes
0:27:44 final reflections what would jesus do
0:27:48 in this chapter the one
0:27:50 jesus written we have not argued that
0:27:53 the doctrine of the trinity as set forth
0:27:55 in the official creeds like nicaea
0:27:58 constantinople
0:27:59 uh cows and etc he's not argued
0:28:03 that that it is a metaphysical
0:28:05 impossibility
0:28:06 nor has it been claimed that official
0:28:08 trinitarian teaching is intrinsically
0:28:11 polytheistic
0:28:13 instead it has been suggested by tim
0:28:15 winter that the doctrine fails on two
0:28:18 internal christian criteria and hence is
0:28:22 as a purportedly christian belief
0:28:25 incoherent
0:28:26 the first
0:28:28 is that the doctrine appears to be
0:28:29 incompatible with the faith of jesus and
0:28:32 the apostolic generations so he's saying
0:28:35 basically jesus and his disciples and
0:28:38 the
0:28:39 few people after that
0:28:41 absolutely did not share that faith it
0:28:42 was incompatible with their faith and he
0:28:44 explains why
0:28:46 forced apologetics aside it is
0:28:49 intrinsically unlikely he says that the
0:28:51 historical jesus of nazareth had he
0:28:54 attended the council of constantinople
0:28:57 that was in the fourth century which
0:28:59 basically gave us today's nicene creed
0:29:03 it's intrinsically unlikely that this
0:29:04 jesus would have voted for the party
0:29:07 that posterity came to regard as
0:29:09 orthodox
0:29:11 a as a fervent jewish worshiper of his
0:29:14 divine father
0:29:16 caught up in a union mystica
0:29:19 that allowed many to see aspects of
0:29:22 divinity indicated in his life and
0:29:25 qualities
0:29:26 but still a sermon of the one god
0:29:30 he would have been sentenced to death
0:29:32 for his radical denial of christian
0:29:34 orthodoxy by the same roman empire that
0:29:38 in its time of paganism had brought his
0:29:41 earthly ministry to a sudden end
0:29:45 so
0:29:46 tim winter here is being um
0:29:48 ironic he's saying the same roman empire
0:29:51 that brought jesus a ministry to an end
0:29:54 in the first century would in his inc in
0:29:57 christian guys later on
0:29:59 have sentenced jesus to death a second
0:30:01 time for being a heretic because he says
0:30:04 the real jesus the jewish jesus would
0:30:06 have voted against
0:30:08 the titles and status attributed to him
0:30:11 by the later church under the control of
0:30:13 the roman empire so that empire would
0:30:15 have put it to death a second time for
0:30:17 being a heretic
0:30:18 this is a um typical tim winter rhetoric
0:30:21 actually very sophisticated uh rhetoric
0:30:24 the foundation of authentic christianity
0:30:26 must be the way its founder himself
0:30:29 believed and worshipped claims tim
0:30:32 winter
0:30:33 the incorporation of the ancient
0:30:35 hellenic principle of a divine triad
0:30:38 into the formerly jewish movement of
0:30:41 christianity
0:30:42 allowed the new religion to attract many
0:30:45 gentiles gentiles are just basically
0:30:47 non-jews
0:30:49 and a vibrant syncretism was born
0:30:51 syncretism is where you bring together
0:30:53 disparate elements into one new thing
0:30:57 gregory of nissa contemplating paganism
0:31:00 as a preparatio for the church greg
0:31:03 anisa by the way was a very
0:31:04 distinguished uh theologian uh in the
0:31:07 eastern church
0:31:08 he contemplating as a preparation for
0:31:11 the church tim winter likes using bits
0:31:14 of latin here by the way
0:31:16 presented christianity as a via media
0:31:18 another bit of latin between jewish
0:31:20 monotheism and greek monotheis uh
0:31:23 polytheism so gregor ethnicia um
0:31:27 saw paganism as a preparation for the
0:31:29 church and christianity is the middle
0:31:32 way the via media between jewish
0:31:34 monotheism on the one hand the religion
0:31:36 of moses
0:31:38 if you like
0:31:39 and greek polytheism on the other so it
0:31:41 wasn't quite one or the other it was
0:31:43 kind of in
0:31:44 between although the reformers uh with a
0:31:48 capital r reformers are the uh the ref
0:31:50 the reformers refers to the people of
0:31:52 the reformation in the 16th century um
0:31:55 people like john calvin
0:31:57 and others although the reformers in
0:31:59 their zeal to return to the sources
0:32:02 add fontes by the way this is me
0:32:05 ad fontes is the slogan the reformers
0:32:07 used to go back to the sources the
0:32:10 ancient greeks and the romans you cut
0:32:12 through tradition church teaching and go
0:32:14 back to the original doctrine so this
0:32:16 was a key theme in the renaissance as
0:32:20 well as in reformation theology but the
0:32:23 two are very closely collected of course
0:32:25 although the reformers tim says in their
0:32:28 zeal to return to the sources the
0:32:30 original new testament
0:32:32 sought in their more courageous moments
0:32:35 to rescue the beliefs of the first
0:32:37 christians from the hellenizing
0:32:39 categories and assumptions of the
0:32:42 imperial councils
0:32:44 to this day the doctrine the doctrine of
0:32:47 the trinity is required by the great
0:32:49 majority of reformed churches so
0:32:52 evangelicals who are mainly the reformed
0:32:54 people today
0:32:55 still preach the same doctrine of the
0:32:57 trinity even though tim winter argues
0:33:00 it's not the original um beliefs or
0:33:03 faith of jesus and his original
0:33:06 disciples so again he's saying this is
0:33:08 ironic they called people to go back to
0:33:11 the sources the new testament the first
0:33:13 christians and yet they didn't actually
0:33:14 do that in every respect in some
0:33:16 respects rejecting later
0:33:19 doctrines like the veneration of mary
0:33:21 and the assumption of mary and purgatory
0:33:23 and papacy but they didn't go back to
0:33:26 the very beginning
0:33:28 of history
0:33:29 to the texts which speak of a human
0:33:31 jesus and a non-trinitarian conception
0:33:34 of god
0:33:36 and this is an interesting point here he
0:33:38 says it is in this spirit that a recent
0:33:40 survey of trinitarian interpretations of
0:33:43 the lord's prayer
0:33:45 warns us against presumptuous attempts
0:33:48 to subscribe to the beliefs of jesus and
0:33:51 his apostles
0:33:53 now he quotes here uh kenneth stephenson
0:33:56 who was a bishop of the church of
0:33:59 england in portsmouth who i actually had
0:34:00 breakfast with at quarrel abbey on the
0:34:02 isle of wight in my christian time when
0:34:04 i was a catholic i often used to go um
0:34:07 on retreat to court abby it's a
0:34:08 beautiful place and the building there
0:34:10 the church is actually very islamic in
0:34:12 his architecture anyway i had breakfast
0:34:15 one day very early in the morning and
0:34:16 the good bishop was there i didn't know
0:34:18 he was only after side well he told me
0:34:20 who he was uh that he was the bishop of
0:34:23 portsmouth anyway tim winter quotes from
0:34:26 um kenneth stevenson who sadly passed
0:34:29 away now
0:34:31 and uh bishop stevenson says how much we
0:34:34 may rightly and understandably load the
0:34:38 lord's prayer with christological and
0:34:41 trinitarian teaching
0:34:43 its new testament origins inevitably
0:34:46 tell us of a different context
0:34:49 not one to which we should
0:34:51 anachronistically aspire in some way to
0:34:55 return
0:34:56 quote unquote
0:34:59 the bishop was an expert on on the
0:35:01 liturgical um on the liturgy in the
0:35:03 church of england and spoke a lot about
0:35:04 the lord's prayer and other matters the
0:35:06 lord's prayer is found of course in
0:35:08 matthew's gospel and the former
0:35:09 christians use it today and it's uh the
0:35:11 prayer that jesus disciples are supposed
0:35:13 to use addressing god as the father and
0:35:16 there's no mention of a trinity in the
0:35:19 lord's prayer
0:35:20 and the bishop seems to be warning us
0:35:24 not to read the lord's prayer in its
0:35:26 original understanding in its original
0:35:28 context in a non-trinitarian way
0:35:32 that would be anachronistic
0:35:35 uh we may just to repeat we may rightly
0:35:38 and understandably load the new
0:35:40 testament i sorry the lord's prayer with
0:35:43 christological and trinitarian teaching
0:35:45 so we've got to read it in a trinitarian
0:35:47 way not the way it was meant originally
0:35:49 but how the church
0:35:51 now reads it
0:35:53 so that's what he he actually warns as
0:35:56 tim says warns against presumptuous
0:35:58 attempts
0:35:59 to actually subscribe to the beliefs of
0:36:01 jesus and his apostles no no we mustn't
0:36:03 do that we must subscribe to the beliefs
0:36:05 of the later church for a valid reading
0:36:07 of the lord's prayer
0:36:09 tim winter
0:36:10 continues the survival of the belief in
0:36:13 the infallibility of the creeds
0:36:16 concurrently with a reduced confidence
0:36:18 in the inerrancy of scripture the idea
0:36:21 that scriptures without error people
0:36:23 have less and less confidence in that
0:36:24 these days even evangelicals i've
0:36:26 noticed
0:36:27 have mostly stopped defending the
0:36:29 error-free perfect bible they say they
0:36:32 admit has some errors
0:36:35 so the survival of the belief in the
0:36:37 infallibility of the creeds at the same
0:36:39 time with reduced confidence in the
0:36:41 inanimate scripture is a subject that
0:36:44 while fascinating can find no place here
0:36:46 so tim winter raises the subject and
0:36:48 then doesn't discuss it perhaps the
0:36:51 contemporary retreat to religion tempts
0:36:54 some fearful souls to believe to believe
0:36:58 that without a literal defense of
0:37:00 historic doxologies the creeds
0:37:03 their identity will be swept away by the
0:37:05 turbid seas of modernity
0:37:08 still
0:37:09 the post-biblical doctrine must defend
0:37:12 itself not only against historically
0:37:15 settled charges of jewish and muslim
0:37:18 monotheists
0:37:19 but against the growing number of
0:37:21 christians
0:37:22 who consider it unscriptural and
0:37:25 unhelpful so it's not just muslims and
0:37:28 jews who criticize this doctrine but
0:37:30 increasingly christians themselves find
0:37:32 it unhelpful and unscriptural and he's
0:37:36 referring here to some research which he
0:37:38 references in this chapter which i've
0:37:39 not gone through but basically most
0:37:42 christians
0:37:43 are confused about this doctrine
0:37:45 according to recent research
0:37:48 so tim winter continues the second of
0:37:49 our grounds for declaring the doctrine
0:37:52 incoherent
0:37:53 is the fact of its simultaneous
0:37:56 centrality and obscurity so it's
0:37:59 simultaneously really important and yet
0:38:02 we don't get it it's baffling
0:38:04 we have seen how baffled ordinary
0:38:06 churchgoers are this is the research
0:38:09 that he references by this core
0:38:11 christian claim about the object of
0:38:13 their worship
0:38:15 how often and how often they react by
0:38:17 storing trinitarian talk in a seldom
0:38:20 opened cupboard of their minds
0:38:24 if the greatest commandment of jesus is
0:38:26 to believe that quote the law thy god is
0:38:29 one that's a quote from mark 12 29 by
0:38:33 the way mark has jesus quote this but
0:38:36 that is itself a quote from the old
0:38:38 testament deuteronomy 6 4 the shema
0:38:41 which jews today recite every day pious
0:38:43 jews recite every day hero israel the
0:38:46 lord our god is one
0:38:48 and that of course is reaffirmed in the
0:38:50 112th sura of the quran using exactly
0:38:53 the same word ahad in arabic echad in
0:38:56 hebrew anyway i digress
0:38:58 if the greatest commandment of jesus is
0:39:00 to believe the law thy god is one then a
0:39:02 doctrine misunderstood as research
0:39:05 suggests it has that has led many
0:39:07 christians into polytheism from which
0:39:09 the jews have been spared
0:39:12 might seem an unlikely gift of the holy
0:39:15 spirit
0:39:16 neither is the implementation of the
0:39:19 great commission this is the statement
0:39:21 in matthew 28 remember that mcgrath
0:39:23 references go into all the world teach
0:39:26 and baptize the name of the father son
0:39:28 and the holy spirit the great commission
0:39:29 is also called
0:39:30 neither is the implementation of the
0:39:32 great commission to spread the faith
0:39:34 notably helped
0:39:35 by the centrality of this doctrine which
0:39:38 remains a scandal to the world's many
0:39:41 unbelievers so as a scandal to muslims
0:39:43 of course and jews
0:39:46 not only does this immensely subtle and
0:39:49 contested dogma lead many into gross
0:39:52 heresy because surveys have shown that
0:39:54 many christians are effectively
0:39:56 polytheists in practice
0:39:59 they have the idea of three divine
0:40:01 beings and that's kind of it so you have
0:40:02 the father's god the sons god the holy
0:40:04 spirit's god
0:40:05 you have three gods
0:40:07 it surely also obstructs our
0:40:09 relationship with the religion's founder
0:40:12 although theologians differ sharply over
0:40:14 the nature of jesus's self-awareness his
0:40:17 usefulness as a role model is
0:40:20 drastically curtailed by his dual nature
0:40:24 jewel nature here
0:40:25 tim winston referring to god sorry jesus
0:40:28 as fully god and fully man that's the
0:40:30 christian belief of course
0:40:31 christology that make that necessarily
0:40:34 makes of him a being categorically
0:40:37 unlike ourselves
0:40:39 so jesus is completely unlike us
0:40:42 we can't indent how can we relate to
0:40:44 jesus he's saying as a role model
0:40:46 if he is god and man at the same time
0:40:48 because none of us are divine and human
0:40:50 tim went to things
0:40:52 a christ marked by static perfection
0:40:56 inerrant even as a small child
0:40:59 who could not increase in wisdom and
0:41:02 stature and favor with god that by the
0:41:04 way is a quote from luke 2 52. it says
0:41:08 in the niv and jesus grew in wisdom and
0:41:11 stature and in favor with god and man
0:41:15 so implying that god is a separate being
0:41:16 from jesus in that passage but how can
0:41:18 god grow in wisdom and stature
0:41:23 um this is an entity tim winter says
0:41:26 utterly alien to our experience and
0:41:28 imagination and cannot in any way
0:41:31 represent us
0:41:33 as he is purported to do in christian
0:41:35 theology
0:41:37 as mccord adams asks and he quotes this
0:41:40 person
0:41:41 could not a self-defusing goodness super
0:41:44 abundant super abundant generosity find
0:41:47 a smidgen more scope for its
0:41:49 extravagance by identifying itself with
0:41:52 the messy developmental process we
0:41:55 struggle through
0:41:56 unquote
0:41:58 the doctrine seems no less effective in
0:42:01 endangering a clear and loving worship
0:42:03 of the of the god served and praised so
0:42:07 perfectly by the human jesus of nazareth
0:42:11 great religions heal souls by inspiring
0:42:14 a simplicity of life
0:42:16 rooted in simple and direct worship
0:42:20 instead of worshiping the father adored
0:42:22 by jesus
0:42:24 believers in the trinity are asked to
0:42:26 make a metaphysical riddle the object of
0:42:29 their worship
0:42:31 indeed the athanasian creed threatens
0:42:33 those who fail to grasp it with eternal
0:42:37 fire
0:42:39 it may be granted that there is always
0:42:40 something mysterious about the inner
0:42:42 life of god something that mcgrath
0:42:44 constantly emphasizes some mystery
0:42:46 mystery mystery is mysterious we can't
0:42:48 we can't express it adequately
0:42:51 but
0:42:52 tim winters counters
0:42:54 to introduce threeness into the divine
0:42:56 essence is to make of god whom we wish
0:43:00 ardently to approach as a person
0:43:03 into an alien abstraction
0:43:05 the doctrine of
0:43:07 the decline of trinitarian language in
0:43:10 popular worship which he surveyed by the
0:43:12 way this is not his idea
0:43:14 this language is kind of draining out of
0:43:16 christian worship apparently
0:43:17 the decline of trinitarian language in
0:43:20 popular worship
0:43:21 is rooted in entirely correct
0:43:23 bewilderment and alienation
0:43:27 and in the last brief paragraph tim
0:43:28 writes
0:43:29 consequently we also need to ask whether
0:43:32 the public confession and adoration of a
0:43:35 conundrum
0:43:36 a one-pointed triangle
0:43:39 as a condition for access to truth and
0:43:42 salvation
0:43:43 has not contributed substantially to the
0:43:46 wider crisis of faith experienced in the
0:43:49 western world so he's directly saying
0:43:52 that doctrine itself has contributed to
0:43:54 decline of faith in the west incredible
0:43:56 claim
0:43:57 modern secularity he says began in
0:44:00 christendom
0:44:01 not in china india or islam so he blames
0:44:05 the west for secularism here is the
0:44:08 unpersuasiveness of trinitarian
0:44:10 metaphysics one salient explanation for
0:44:14 this not insignificant fact
0:44:17 as a ready target for secular
0:44:19 incredulity
0:44:20 it may have played a significant role in
0:44:24 the rise of atheism
0:44:26 and the even more widespread deism that
0:44:29 have replaced orthodoxy in the historic
0:44:32 lands of christendom end quote
0:44:35 so not only
0:44:36 he even blames the rise of atheism in
0:44:39 some way to the perplexing and baffling
0:44:42 doctrine of the trinity
0:44:44 that's quite a thing so that's page 354
0:44:47 of this book i do recommend many other
0:44:50 fascinating essays on
0:44:52 uh theism in this text so i'm gonna
0:44:55 leave it there it's a long video three
0:44:57 quarters of an hour long but this is a
0:44:59 very weighty subject and i've only
0:45:01 scratched the surface and i'll need to
0:45:03 do another video to look into the
0:45:05 historical development of the doctrine
0:45:07 and um and trinitaria's in more detail
0:45:09 because to do it justice i'll need to do
0:45:11 another video and i will always try and
0:45:14 bring in alternative voices as well
0:45:16 jewish i have some jewish authors lined
0:45:17 up as well as muslim ones who are
0:45:19 academics who have a different
0:45:21 perspective on these various christian
0:45:24 concepts i hope to elucidate
0:45:26 going forward
0:45:27 until next