Dr. Jordan Peterson Clears Up Warlord Comment (2021-12-16) #

0:00:00 uh there was a time of persecution and
0:00:02 then after that
0:00:03 um
0:00:04 he went he went to different places he
0:00:06 went to tariff
0:00:07 which is a place outside of mecca he
0:00:09 went to el salvador two clans two tribes
0:00:13 and what it was is that he was he was
0:00:15 trying to get support for his project or
0:00:18 the monotheistic project because he was
0:00:20 being boycotted et cetera he eventually
0:00:22 got it from us
0:00:24 these two tribes because they actually
0:00:25 believed in the religion of islam this
0:00:27 is documented like without a shadow of a
0:00:29 doubt this is what happened and then is
0:00:31 this in the medina is this the medina
0:00:33 period that you're speaking out so this
0:00:34 is actually technically the meccan
0:00:36 period
0:00:37 okay still the meccan period yeah so
0:00:39 right before medina literally was
0:00:40 established because medina is the it was
0:00:42 it was so called after the prophet
0:00:44 because medina just literally means the
0:00:46 city in arabic it was called the
0:00:48 ethereum before and then they changed it
0:00:49 into madina to nebi like the city of the
0:00:51 prophet and so that's why it was kind of
0:00:53 called medina after that
0:00:55 in that time period so you've got 13
0:00:57 years of medina
0:00:58 the vast majority i'm not going to say
0:01:00 all about the vast majority of wars that
0:01:02 took place
0:01:03 and in fact all of the wars that took
0:01:04 place before the conquest of mecca were
0:01:06 defensive so the pagan arabs went to
0:01:09 medina and tried to siege it
0:01:14 and all of these are names of wars in
0:01:16 fact there was according to monschola
0:01:18 there were 19 such wars
0:01:20 in 10 years so that's almost an average
0:01:23 of two wars every year and for me i see
0:01:26 that actually as an evidence for prophet
0:01:27 because the prophet was actually
0:01:28 fighting in these wars he wasn't just
0:01:30 you know throwing people around telling
0:01:31 him to fight for him he was fighting in
0:01:33 them and there were defensive wars
0:01:35 um
0:01:36 so in that time period what happened was
0:01:38 i'll give you one okay so okay so let me
0:01:40 let me interject something there because
0:01:42 that's
0:01:43 that's that's very that's a very hard
0:01:44 thing for me to
0:01:46 to get straight in my mind yes now
0:01:49 um
0:01:50 i would say that and the division in
0:01:53 islam that occurred almost immediately
0:01:55 upon muhammad's death and which has not
0:01:58 been rectified to this day quite the
0:02:00 contrary that's also you know that's a
0:02:02 problem for everyone it's a problem for
0:02:04 muslims it's a problem for christians
0:02:05 it's a problem for everyone and it's a
0:02:07 problem that could really get out of
0:02:08 hand now it's not like i don't know that
0:02:10 the protestants and the catholics were
0:02:11 at each other's throats for you know
0:02:13 hundreds of years so
0:02:14 but that's that's not the issue at the
0:02:17 moment so
0:02:19 now in in islam there's a tremendous
0:02:21 emphasis on christ's doctrines as well
0:02:24 and there isn't any evidence that christ
0:02:26 himself took part in let's say wars
0:02:30 okay so
0:02:31 it's hard
0:02:32 and i mean
0:02:33 what do you mean okay well if you if you
0:02:35 analyze christ as an archetype
0:02:37 when he comes back in his second coming
0:02:39 he is going to dominate the world
0:02:42 and one can say well that's not the
0:02:43 historical christ but when we're when
0:02:45 we're looking at him in the way
0:02:47 look that's a reasonable that's a
0:02:48 reasonable objective
0:02:50 and i understand that a judge a judge
0:02:52 has a judge has that that martial
0:02:55 element and i don't think it's
0:02:56 reasonable to use the archetypal
0:02:58 representation as an argument against
0:03:00 the historical reality and look i'm not
0:03:02 saying to you that i know that what
0:03:05 muhammad did was wrong that isn't what
0:03:07 i'm saying i'm saying that i don't
0:03:10 understand
0:03:11 how
0:03:12 participation in those defense of wars
0:03:15 let's say but then that was also
0:03:16 followed by a tremendous explosion of
0:03:18 islamic expansion right the biggest
0:03:20 empire the world had ever seen in a very
0:03:22 short period of time
0:03:23 right at right at europe's doors
0:03:26 and so
0:03:27 and that was also followed by the
0:03:29 severance of the islamic faith into two
0:03:31 major categories and and interned
0:03:33 conflict there and so there's that that
0:03:35 stream of of
0:03:37 of armed conflict activity i i think
0:03:41 that you're
0:03:42 with respect i i don't think you're
0:03:43 getting the history fully right here
0:03:45 because well
0:03:46 go yep that's fine cool yeah the the the
0:03:49 the war in germany that the wars between
0:03:51 shia and sunnah or what would then be
0:03:54 it's not really between sunnah because
0:03:55 quite frankly shiism had not been
0:03:57 established does it but the the the wars
0:03:59 of the companions how many people died
0:04:01 in those wars
0:04:03 do we have any numbers
0:04:04 for maximum we can say but it's but
0:04:07 fair look fair enough man and it's not
0:04:09 like it's not chris it's not like
0:04:10 christianity hasn't been rife with
0:04:12 internecine conflict yes
0:04:15 but but the fact is is that it was
0:04:17 almost immediately after muhammad's
0:04:19 death that this fracturing took place
0:04:20 among the people that were closely
0:04:22 allied with him and it was a bloody
0:04:23 fracturing and it isn't obvious that
0:04:25 it's been wrapped
0:04:27 how bloody was it well how bloody does
0:04:29 it have to be you know it doesn't take
0:04:30 much
0:04:31 okay
0:04:32 well let's be honest let's be fair yeah
0:04:34 yeah
0:04:35 let's be fair right with with with with
0:04:37 the wars that took place 30 to 40 years
0:04:39 and it wasn't immediately after because
0:04:40 you said that in the video the day he
0:04:42 died that's wrong he didn't happen the
0:04:44 day he died it happened 30 to four years
0:04:45 after
0:04:46 it happened 30 to 40 years after and how
0:04:48 long how how many people how many
0:04:50 members of muhammad's immediate family
0:04:52 survived during that 30 years
0:04:55 my understanding was that most of his
0:04:56 immediate family died in armed conflict
0:04:59 relatively immediate family died in his
0:05:00 own lifetime
0:05:02 yes well i'm not speaking of them but
0:05:04 i'm speaking of what happened after he
0:05:05 died that's right because yeah okay look
0:05:08 first first fact
0:05:10 muhammad
0:05:11 uh salah sallam we say salah meaning
0:05:13 peace and blessings upon him
0:05:16 all of his children died in his life
0:05:19 okay except for one
0:05:21 so most of the members of his immediate
0:05:23 family and his wife died khadija died
0:05:25 his uncle abu talib died his other uncle
0:05:27 hamza died they all died within his
0:05:30 lifetime either due to illness or due to
0:05:33 some other some other cause war for
0:05:35 example like one of the defensive was
0:05:37 hamza died
0:05:38 and by the way muhammad forgave his
0:05:40 killer and that's something which which
0:05:41 goes against the warlord thesis because
0:05:44 when he then conquered mecca
0:05:46 when he conquered mecca he was actually
0:05:48 no fighting i'm not sure if you know
0:05:49 this it's called fat
0:05:51 when he went into and conquered mecca he
0:05:53 didn't fight anybody
0:05:55 it was no fighting there were a few
0:05:56 people that that were exempted but he
0:05:59 actually quoted what joseph quoted to
0:06:01 his brothers in the quran in the quran
0:06:04 which is letter 3 by alaikum that no
0:06:06 blame is on you today and so and this by
0:06:09 the way is a bedrock example of
0:06:11 forgiveness in islam because these were
0:06:13 people that were persecuting him for 13
0:06:15 years these are people that were that
0:06:17 killed his uncle like i said there's one
0:06:18 person called washi
0:06:20 who um who literally killed his uncle
0:06:23 and uh and mutilated his body and he
0:06:26 said
0:06:27 to ashi i forgive you but i can't i
0:06:29 can't see your face because of how
0:06:31 how
0:06:32 he said
0:06:37 he said can you keep your face away from
0:06:38 me because i can't psychologically i
0:06:40 can't bring my faith but i do forgive
0:06:41 you he said so he forgave people that
0:06:43 killed his own family members
0:06:46 and this was after he he himself
0:06:48 attempted a treaty with the pagans
0:06:50 called hodebiya
0:06:52 and so they broke the treaty and that's
0:06:54 what initiated the conquest of mecca
0:06:55 which was
0:06:57 not a conquest that was
0:06:58 fighting now if you compare this because
0:07:00 i think the comparison if there's any
0:07:02 comparison that can be or should be made
0:07:04 it's the it's jesus's second coming with
0:07:07 muhammad in the medinan period not in
0:07:09 the meccan period in the meccan period
0:07:11 both were being persecuted jesus in his
0:07:13 life and muhammad in his in the meccan
0:07:16 period but jesus when he comes back he
0:07:18 will then get authority and he will be i
0:07:20 uh he will be ruling with the iron
0:07:22 scepter according to the bible he would
0:07:24 be crushing his uh
0:07:26 he will be crushing his enemies as it
0:07:28 says in corinthians under his for
0:07:30 humbling his enemies under his foot uh
0:07:32 and killing and violent violent stuff so
0:07:34 in fact
0:07:36 i will actually argue today that the new
0:07:38 testament representation of jesus christ
0:07:41 in his second coming is way more violent
0:07:44 than muhammad's
0:07:45 conquests in the medina okay well look
0:07:48 like i said i wasn't i wasn't trying to
0:07:50 make the case i wasn't trying to make
0:07:52 the case that
0:07:54 what happened in mecca or medina was
0:07:56 wrong like so let me explain that a
0:07:58 little bit
0:08:00 so
0:08:01 christian europe fought a defensive war
0:08:03 against the nazis
0:08:05 it isn't obvious that that was wrong i
0:08:07 don't think that was i wouldn't say
0:08:08 that's defensive
0:08:10 well okay fine but but i understand the
0:08:12 concept of defense of war
0:08:16 america
0:08:17 america when america got involved in
0:08:18 world war ii
0:08:20 it was not under immediate threat by
0:08:21 germany and they colonized it and here's
0:08:24 the thing caught it it overtook western
0:08:27 germany you see and well
0:08:29 here's the thing the term warlord that
0:08:31 you use with the prophet you've never
0:08:32 used with harry truman you've never used
0:08:35 with uh
0:08:36 with uh roosevelt you've never used with
0:08:38 winston churchill all of which conquered
0:08:40 countries literally in wars because i
0:08:43 feel like there is there is a bias there
0:08:45 and you actually never used it with
0:08:47 anybody else aside from the prophet
0:08:48 muhammad in your public output and i
0:08:50 think that's unjustifiable i think that
0:08:52 you have biblical prophets like moses
0:08:54 you have biblical prophets
0:08:56 like um joshua you have you have the
0:08:59 jesus in his second coming all of which
0:09:01 were warrior prophets
0:09:03 and and and and you've only used the
0:09:06 term uh
0:09:07 warlord with the prophet muhammad i
0:09:08 think that is unjustifiable i think if
0:09:11 what is it that caught
0:09:12 what makes someone a warlord in you
0:09:15 then if if it's conquering lands then
0:09:17 harry truman is a warlord then uh
0:09:20 you know and so on and so forth in fact
0:09:23 i guess that's a real that's a real
0:09:24 tough question isn't it what makes a
0:09:26 warlord and what makes it just war it's
0:09:28 not like any of us have the precise
0:09:30 answers to that i think that's what
0:09:31 partly what we're trying to hash out the
0:09:32 definitions of the word warlords the
0:09:34 definition of the word woodward
0:09:35 according to collins is that someone who
0:09:37 acquires force by aggressivity and
0:09:39 violence
0:09:42 and you push back on me so i'll push
0:09:43 back on you to some degree okay well
0:09:46 it's certainly the case that the
0:09:47 expansion of the islamic empire was
0:09:50 accomplished by a tremendous amount of
0:09:52 war-like activity and that wasn't
0:09:53 defensive
0:09:55 now look i understand that monotheism is
0:09:57 a difficult state to attain
0:10:00 and that monotheistic societies have
0:10:02 emerged in the midst of conflict
0:10:03 throughout human society i understand
0:10:05 that and i'm not even saying that
0:10:06 there's something exceptional in that
0:10:08 regard about islam although the rate at
0:10:10 which it happened was quite remarkable
0:10:12 but it still it presents us with a
0:10:14 problem doesn't it
0:10:15 i mean everyone it presents everyone
0:10:17 with a problem
0:10:18 and the problem is well for example the
0:10:20 problem is reconciling the idea of
0:10:22 turning the other cheek with the idea of
0:10:24 a just war a defensive war or an expanse
0:10:26 of war for that matter and of course
0:10:28 that issue is relevant to islam because
0:10:30 islam exploded outward and produced the
0:10:33 biggest empire the world had ever seen
0:10:34 in in the in the space of a few short
0:10:36 centuries
0:10:39 so then well so then you ask well what's
0:10:42 the spirit what is the spirit that
0:10:44 animated that and is that attributable
0:10:46 to the islamic doctrines themselves
0:10:49 i don't know the answer to that now let
0:10:51 me tell you the answer to that okay
0:10:53 and this is what i want to tell you
0:10:54 conclusively and this will help build
0:10:56 bridges honestly because we can maintain
0:10:58 the warlord thesis we can maintain the
0:10:59 expansionist thesis but here's what i'll
0:11:01 tell you
0:11:02 islam has a has a capability to be
0:11:05 expansive
0:11:07 and it also has a capability of making
0:11:09 peace treaties
0:11:10 and it does and it should do whatever is
0:11:12 in his best interest just like every
0:11:14 country should do ever in his best
0:11:16 interest in the pre-modern world we did
0:11:19 not i think this is highly anachronistic
0:11:21 in the pre-modern world there was no
0:11:23 such thing as un it was a realist
0:11:25 international relations framework
0:11:27 whereby everybody was fighting everyone
0:11:30 the roman empire didn't care
0:11:32 about what it didn't care about you
0:11:34 quite frankly it was expanding itself
0:11:36 the persian empire was expanding itself
0:11:38 and the and the arabian peninsula was in
0:11:40 between both and so it could have either
0:11:42 been swallowed by those two other
0:11:44 empires or it could decide to in fact we
0:11:46 will impose our government on them
0:11:48 before they impose it on us and it
0:11:50 decided the former rather than the
0:11:52 latter it decided to expand and in fact
0:11:54 the prophet in his weakest of times he
0:11:56 predicted that that would happen
0:11:58 you know there was one more in
0:11:59 particular where they were they were
0:12:01 starving and it's called khandak and he
0:12:03 hit iraq and he said
0:12:07 the roman empire has been conquered he
0:12:09 hit another iraq again he said forte had
0:12:11 fairest that the persian empire has been
0:12:13 conquered and then he knocked the rock
0:12:14 again he said he said this in his
0:12:16 weakest moment he said that the yemen
0:12:18 has been conquered i see that the
0:12:20 expansion of the islamic empire is a
0:12:22 proof of islam and you know it's not
0:12:23 just me even historians say this how
0:12:25 barnaby rogerson he said the fact that
0:12:27 islam spread
0:12:29 to the roman empire and the persian
0:12:31 empire is equivalent to
0:12:33 the the is equivalent to eskimos taking
0:12:36 over russia and america i believe it's
0:12:37 miraculous if anything that this
0:12:39 happened i don't think it's
0:12:40 unjustifiable i think actually during
0:12:42 peace and to be then
0:12:43 stop it why did it stop at europe's
0:12:45 borders so to speak
0:12:48 if it was the worst
0:12:49 yeah
0:12:50 because of uh
0:12:51 it wasn't successful there it wasn't it
0:12:54 it stopped where it it
0:12:55 couldn't go further but the point is is
0:12:58 that it's not like the christians at
0:12:59 that time in
0:13:00 rome cared i mean they did the same
0:13:03 thing for years they were expanding
0:13:04 themselves well that's why i said that's
0:13:06 why i said i wasn't making a private
0:13:07 fancy case that this was wrong i'm
0:13:09 trying to understand it and so and you
0:13:11 objected to my
0:13:12 use of the term warlord and perhaps
0:13:14 rightly so you know perhaps that was an
0:13:16 injudicious comment i was rather shocked
0:13:19 when i was reading islamic history when
0:13:21 i
0:13:22 encountered the degree of violence that
0:13:25 surrounded these events and so you know
0:13:26 maybe i was like i was appreciative you
0:13:29 said that i think this that shows real
0:13:30 sincerity in it and it's it's one step
0:13:33 closer to creating real
0:13:35 uh meaningful relationships between uh
0:13:38 well i think and i think you're you know
0:13:40 your defense that well the world was a
0:13:42 battleground of empires and you know if
0:13:44 it's if it's push out from our territory
0:13:47 be encroached upon and dominated then it
0:13:49 isn't obvious that being encroached upon
0:13:51 and dominated is the right
0:13:53 approach the correct approach the most
0:13:55 moral approach let's say um especially
0:13:58 because there'd be no shortage of
0:13:59 bloodshed that would also accompany that
0:14:01 so sometimes you're in a bad place and
0:14:03 but you know it's not an easy thing for
0:14:05 any of us to
0:14:06 what would you say mediate between
0:14:08 doctrines like turn the other cheek and
0:14:10 love your enemy and also at the same
0:14:12 time discuss the necessity of both
0:14:14 defensive and sometimes expansive
0:14:16 expansionist wars right we all have to
0:14:18 contend with that and and
0:14:21 and it's very difficult to contend with
0:14:22 it the arguments are extremely
0:14:24 complicated you're absolutely right and
0:14:25 i