ST#62: Divine Perfection - The Adamic Conundrum with Dr. Osman Latiff (2022-06-24) ​

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Summary of ST#62: Divine Perfection - The Adamic Conundrum with Dr. Osman Latiff ​

This summary is AI generated - there may be inaccuracies. *

00:00:00 [00:15:00 ​

Dr. Osman Latiff discusses the Islamic concept of salvation and how it differs from the Christian perspective. He explains that in Islam, salvation is only found through God himself. The adamic model of salvation is illustrated with a story of three individuals who stayed behind at the battle of Tabuk and were punished by God for their disobedience.

00:00:00 Dr. Osman Latiff discusses the Adamic Conundrum, which is the concept that there is a difference between the Islamic and Christian conceptions of salvation. Craig argues that islam does not have a concept of sin, and therefore there is no need for a savior. He also makes the argument that because islam does not have a doctrine of atonement, god's anger cannot be appeased and humanity cannot be forgiven. Latiff disagrees with Craig on both points, and explains that the Islamic view of salvation is different than the Christian view because it takes into account the pre-existing warning Adam was given about the devil.

• 00:05:00 Discusses the biblical and Quranic concept of "Adam" and "the devil." highlights how Adam and Eve were tempted by the devil, and how this caused them to sin. also discusses how Adam and Eve were removed from the Garden of Eden and how this caused them to sin further. concludes by emphasizing the importance of following God's commandments to avoid deviations from our path.
• 00:10:00 Dr. Osman Latiff discusses the difference between the Christian narrative and the Islamic narrative of the Garden of Eden. He points out that both narratives involve God intervening on behalf of Adam, but the Islamic narrative emphasizes the role of God in guiding and inspiring Adam. He finishes the video by discussing the archetype of Adam and how it can be applied to our own lives.
• 00:15:00 Dr. Osman Latiff discusses the quranic concept of salvation and how it differs from the Christian perspective. He explains that in Islam, salvation is only found through God himself. The adamic model of salvation is illustrated with a story of three individuals who stayed behind at the battle of Tabuk and were punished by God for their disobedience.

Full transcript with timestamps: CLICK TO EXPAND

0:00:06 assalamualaikum welcome to sapient0:00:08 thoughts it's dr humanity from going0:00:09 through my book divine perfection0:00:11 christianity and islam on sin and0:00:12 salvation published this year by0:00:13 sapience institute we have of course0:00:15 unpacked quite a bit already about0:00:17 arguments presented by our christian0:00:19 friends detractors william lane craig0:00:22 and others before and after him who make0:00:24 these arguments about islamic theism in0:00:27 fact craig makes three primary arguments0:00:30 about allah being not maximally0:00:32 omniscient therefore making a mistake in0:00:34 the trinity in the quranic outlook we've0:00:37 been through that very very cohesively0:00:40 and0:00:40 and thoroughly now of course the second0:00:43 argument perhaps is the most is the most0:00:45 important of all the arguments that0:00:46 craig makes0:00:48 and in fact the biggest one between us0:00:50 and our christian friends james langford0:00:52 in his very seminal thesis about some0:00:56 you know ideas about christian mission0:00:57 to muslims says that muslims have no0:01:01 doctrine of sin0:01:02 that he says that there is no concept of0:01:04 an estrangement between god and humanity0:01:07 in islam and therefore there's no need0:01:09 for reconciliation between god and man0:01:11 therefore no need for a savior he's not0:01:13 the first in fact to make that argument0:01:14 see our marsh in his work says that you0:01:17 know only and if ever the muslims see0:01:20 themselves as inherently sinful in the0:01:23 eyes of god will they ever see the need0:01:25 for a savior now the the fundamental0:01:28 thing here is that they're both arguing0:01:29 similar things about does islam have a0:01:32 concept of sin what is sin in islam does0:01:35 sin create the sense of a distance or a0:01:37 strange assumption between us and god0:01:40 and is there a need at the end of the0:01:41 day for a savior now craig of course0:01:44 makes that same argument they all make0:01:46 the same argument there is nothing new0:01:48 it's all the same things that they're0:01:50 saying0:01:51 now craig's second argument that he0:01:52 makes in his website reasonable faith0:01:54 and his videos and in his debates is the0:01:56 same one about the fact that the0:01:59 doctrine of salvation what we call0:02:01 soteriology in islam is not sufficient0:02:04 in representing god's maximal holiness0:02:07 whereas in christianity through that0:02:10 price paid uh from jesus christ on the0:02:13 cross that's enough enough and0:02:15 sufficient for god's wrath to be0:02:17 appeased and therefore god forgives0:02:19 humanity and therefore god loves0:02:21 humanity and so on and so forth now of0:02:22 course in the last episode we went0:02:24 through christian atonement theories and0:02:26 as you remember herring there were many0:02:28 many of them there was of course that0:02:30 that primal one of of augustine and the0:02:34 devil ransom theory christus victor0:02:36 theory uranuses theories uh origins0:02:39 theories there was the0:02:40 uh athanasius's mystical theory there0:02:43 was uh anselm's satisfaction theory the0:02:46 one before that of gregory evnessa and0:02:48 the fish hook theory the one much after0:02:50 that of calvin and penal substitution0:02:51 theory and all these theories were in0:02:53 attempt by christian theologians some of0:02:55 them church fathers to make sense of0:02:58 what happened between god and humanity0:03:01 humanity through jesus christ in the0:03:03 whole cosmic order of things and the0:03:05 fundamental position of adam us human0:03:08 beings as his progeny in light of the0:03:10 sacrificial model presented by jesus0:03:13 christ as a way for sins our sins adam's0:03:16 sins to be atoned for and therefore0:03:18 god's anger to be appeased and for us0:03:20 therefore to be forgiven those were0:03:22 atonement theories and there are of0:03:24 course some that are being developed and0:03:26 evolving over time uh over the christian0:03:30 centuries0:03:31 uh now0:03:32 how do we and how do we understand that0:03:35 or appreciate that in light of the0:03:37 quranic the islamic the prophetic0:03:39 discourse about salvation if that's the0:03:42 way that christians perceive of it how0:03:43 do we perceive of it remember we said0:03:45 initially that there is much that we0:03:47 agree with with our christian friends0:03:48 that we both believe in similar things0:03:50 about adam about god about not from the0:03:52 the particular tree uh to enjoy the0:03:55 garden him and his wife we both believe0:03:57 that we both believe in the devil the0:03:59 devil of course has a plan and and we0:04:01 all believe in that stuff but the0:04:03 quranic outline is remarkably0:04:06 different in fact uniquely different0:04:09 than our christian friends0:04:11 outline presented to them in the bible0:04:13 or at least even not so much from the0:04:15 bible but in fact in their theoretical0:04:17 developments in their history and that's0:04:19 a lot a lot to say about that0:04:21 so what happens then how is it presented0:04:23 in the quran what happens with adam in0:04:25 the quran that is the subject of of this0:04:28 series here now this is in light of what0:04:30 i call what the book terms the adamic0:04:32 conundrum now in the quran is presented0:04:35 like this0:04:36 allah of course had forewarned adam and0:04:39 his wife not to eat from a particular0:04:41 tree0:04:42 and allah says0:04:44 beware of the devil right in the fight0:04:46 in the quran says0:04:47 beware of the devil because he is your0:04:49 enemy0:04:51 so take him therefore as an enemy adam0:04:53 was pre-warned we're also warned about0:04:55 the devil in our lives as well remember0:04:58 of course in the quranic paradigm human0:05:00 beings all of us are weak frail prone to0:05:04 sin0:05:05 we're not perfect creatures we're0:05:07 imperfect creatures that means we have a0:05:09 capacity to do good0:05:11 and capacity to do sin a beautiful0:05:14 verses which is outlined in israel0:05:16 in the quran in which allah says0:05:21 foreign0:05:25 beautiful verses what do they say they0:05:28 say that0:05:29 consider the self consider yourself0:05:32 myself yourself0:05:34 how it's formed0:05:36 and how it could be inspired by0:05:39 by depravity by moral depravities but0:05:42 also inspired by0:05:44 saintliness0:05:45 by moral goodness by goodness by good0:05:49 character right so human beings have0:05:52 both potentials to do0:05:54 wondrous dazzling acts of kindness of0:05:57 mercy of sympathy of empathy of love all0:06:00 of that but also evil acts hideous acts0:06:03 reprehensible acts as well in fact the0:06:06 world of course is a witness to both of0:06:08 these currents and trends but then the0:06:11 next verse says0:06:13 successful is he that purifies it0:06:16 meaning purifies himself0:06:18 that that's the undertaking the task0:06:20 that is set out to man from god0:06:22 successful is the one that purifies0:06:24 himself that works labors in that task0:06:27 day and night all the time that's0:06:29 success and that loss is the one that0:06:31 buries it buries himself this allows0:06:33 himself to reach heights of moral0:06:36 goodness of moral character of excellent0:06:38 beautiful behavior beautiful conduct0:06:40 beautiful acts of worship and so on and0:06:42 so forth so therefore we have both of0:06:45 these strands as human beings and so0:06:47 therefore uh adam therefore when he sins0:06:51 against allah well the way it's0:06:53 presented in the quran is not exactly0:06:54 like that either so we know therefore0:06:56 that the devil exists and the devil0:06:59 goes to or we don't know in fact if it0:07:01 was to eve or adam first except that0:07:04 they're both blamed for that mistake0:07:07 that they make0:07:08 now of course in the quran allah calls0:07:10 it many things allah calls it an act of0:07:12 disobedience that's true allah calls0:07:15 they were misled deceived by the devil0:07:18 allah says there was a case of0:07:20 forgetfulness from from adam0:07:22 forgetfulness perhaps of many things0:07:23 maybe he forgot therefore the great0:07:25 undertaking that god gave him in the0:07:27 first place he forgot his responsibility0:07:29 between him and god he forgot the great0:07:33 deceptive character and potential of the0:07:36 devil he forgot0:07:37 but in this verse in the in the second0:07:40 chapter of the quran it's outlined0:07:41 beautifully in that allah says that the0:07:44 devil0:07:47 allah says that the devil caused them0:07:49 both to slip0:07:51 the word used here is the word zel which0:07:53 is stumble or slip now of course in the0:07:56 book of genesis the bible is called the0:07:58 fall0:07:58 fall kind of connotes like something0:08:01 that is irrecoverable i mean as you've0:08:03 fallen now but a slip has different0:08:05 connotations of while you're slipped and0:08:07 you stumble but perhaps you're still0:08:09 able to get back up on your feet that's0:08:10 the first difference that you'll notice0:08:12 in the quranic narrative0:08:14 allah says that the shaitaan the devil0:08:16 caused them both to0:08:17 slip0:08:18 and then they were removed from where0:08:19 they were meaning in the garden they0:08:21 were taken out from them placed0:08:23 elsewhere0:08:24 now that's the first thing now zell of0:08:28 course has connotations it's like when0:08:29 we believe that when we uh leave our0:08:31 homes in the morning or whatever homes0:08:33 we say a particular prayer that we say0:08:36 allah0:08:43 prophetic prayer that we recite oh allah0:08:45 i seek refuge with you that i go astray0:08:47 or leaders as a straight or that i slip0:08:49 and stumble0:08:50 right or cause others to slip and0:08:51 stumble so we all in our lives can slip0:08:55 and stumble we can lose sight of where0:08:57 we're going sometimes in life that's a0:08:59 reflection of our imperfect human0:09:02 character and nature and of course god0:09:04 creates us with perfect knowledge and0:09:06 perfect wisdom that's a key fundamental0:09:09 point for us to emphasize god creates us0:09:11 with perfect knowledge and perfect0:09:12 wisdom knowing of course this is who we0:09:14 are this is our capacity our potential0:09:17 and these are ways of course we could be0:09:19 led astray but we have to be on our god0:09:21 the quran says by the way in the quran0:09:23 we have the word0:09:26 which means deviation straying0:09:29 misleading0:09:30 repeated more than 200 times in the0:09:32 quran0:09:34 straying misleading deviating but we0:09:36 also have the word wakaya wakka is where0:09:39 we get the word taqwa from which means0:09:40 protection which means safeguarding0:09:43 repeated through and through the quran0:09:45 as a way of pushing back offsetting the0:09:48 dangers of dalala of deviation of0:09:51 straying of of of misleading and going0:09:54 astray and so the next verse now is is0:09:57 very essential and key for us in showing0:10:00 the difference between us0:10:01 and the christian narrative which ends0:10:03 up in a lot of confusion a lot of0:10:05 ambiguity with all of these atonement0:10:07 theories are proposed and still0:10:08 developing and evolving and that is this0:10:11 verse that allah quran says0:10:18 what does it say it says therefore so0:10:20 adam slept therefore was removed from0:10:22 where he was and then allah says adam0:10:25 was met with some words from his lord0:10:28 what does it mean to be met with some0:10:29 words from his lord what does it mean0:10:31 adam was met with some words from his0:10:33 lord it means that adam in this state of0:10:37 vulnerability because of course he has0:10:39 sinned and done something against god's0:10:41 wishes is now stuck because he's there0:10:43 by him so remember adam is there by0:10:45 himself with his wife that says no other0:10:46 prophets around to ask to seek help from0:10:48 nothing that's just them too right but0:10:50 there of course is allah there is god0:10:52 and it's god that they beseech but not0:10:54 just that they beseech god and ask of0:10:56 god no that is not even the first thing0:10:58 that happens0:10:59 allah says adam was received words from0:11:02 his lord that means0:11:04 allah god the lord of the heavens and0:11:07 the earth the most kind the most0:11:08 merciful the maximally perfect0:11:11 the most magnificent the most supreme0:11:14 allah0:11:15 taught adam words to say that means0:11:18 allah inspired adam with words to say in0:11:21 order for adam to know how to ask god0:11:24 for forgiveness0:11:26 it's something fundamentally beautiful0:11:28 here0:11:28 that is not so much adam then quickly0:11:30 asked for forgiveness is that allah0:11:33 aided adam enabled adam facilitated for0:11:37 adam that path of seeking for seeking0:11:40 forgiveness which is remarkable right0:11:42 and so in adam being taught the words0:11:45 and we know the words from another verse0:11:47 in the quran when they both said0:11:48 they both said0:11:56 our lord our lord0:11:59 we have wronged our souls0:12:02 and if you don't forgive us and have0:12:03 mercy on us we're going to be of the0:12:05 losers so what's happening here number0:12:07 one our lord0:12:09 number two we've wronged ourselves0:12:11 injustice on ourselves0:12:13 number three0:12:16 you forgive0:12:17 you are the one that forgives number0:12:19 four you show mercy and number five if0:12:23 you do we're successful if you don't0:12:25 wear losers all of that contained in0:12:27 that beautiful prayer of adam and his0:12:30 wife that was inspired upon them taught0:12:32 to them instructed to them by god0:12:34 himself enabling adam and all of us adam0:12:38 is archetypal here all of us as his0:12:40 progeny to remember the way back to god0:12:43 whenever we slip and whenever we stumble0:12:45 in life there is a model0:12:47 paradigmatic model here for us to always0:12:49 remember and realize that's how it0:12:51 happened with adam our father where his0:12:54 progeny that's how god deals with us0:12:56 remember we ended the last chapter by by0:12:58 mentioning the verse in the quran when0:12:59 allah says0:13:02 what is your impression0:13:04 of the lord of the worlds how do we0:13:06 perceive imagine0:13:08 of god in light of all these tournament0:13:11 theories and god0:13:12 and the blood and the sacrifice and the0:13:14 the wrath and the all of these things0:13:17 and now how do we0:13:18 perceive imagine of god0:13:20 when we know that that's how god treats0:13:22 and dealt with0:13:24 the first of us the first of us our0:13:26 father0:13:27 adam when he stumbled he stumbled and he0:13:30 slipped0:13:32 in the garden there you know when the0:13:33 devil when he was deceived by the devil0:13:35 so therefore allah inspired adam with0:13:37 the words to say but it doesn't end0:13:39 there0:13:40 it doesn't end there because then allah0:13:42 says0:13:43 now taba it means to lean towards to0:13:47 relent towards0:13:48 that means who's doing it all here it's0:13:51 god doing it towards adam it is not adam0:13:53 that is the first actor here it is god0:13:56 enabling assisting adam when allah says0:14:00 lean to him by showing him repentance by0:14:03 showing you by accepting repentance0:14:04 allah did that and allah is of repenting0:14:08 and allah is merciful that is a0:14:10 beautiful model here that we we can0:14:12 clearly see in this adamic paradigm0:14:15 right conundrum between us and0:14:16 christians but really when the quran is0:14:18 an adamic paradigm an archetype showing0:14:21 illustrating for us the mercy the0:14:23 closeness the love of god towards his0:14:26 creation0:14:27 even though adam made a mistake and0:14:29 sinned here against god0:14:31 or he made a mistake some they say it0:14:33 was a mistake some they say it was act0:14:35 of disobedience but in any case it was0:14:37 something that was not what he wasn't0:14:39 supposed to do but he did and so now0:14:41 therefore there was a way out for him in0:14:43 light of that0:14:45 in light of that mistake or that sin0:14:47 that he made now i want to show you one0:14:49 more thing in light of this just so that0:14:50 you realize this is not restricted to0:14:53 adam this is not only about adam so we0:14:56 have of course clarified a big thing0:14:58 here in light of0:15:00 salvation what it means from the islamic0:15:02 perspective and the christian0:15:03 perspective a big thing but just to show0:15:06 you something really remarkable this is0:15:07 not just about adam you might say0:15:10 christians might say well that's unique0:15:12 about adam but what else is there in the0:15:14 quran what else is there in islam how do0:15:16 we know that god doesn't deals with us0:15:18 in the same way that with adam for0:15:19 example let me show you one beautiful0:15:21 example from the chapter called atoba in0:15:23 the quran0:15:25 this chapter which in fact is called0:15:27 meaning remains repentance but here you0:15:29 have a beautiful incident concerning0:15:31 three individuals these individuals were0:15:33 three people0:15:34 who made excuses0:15:36 for not participating in a very0:15:38 important one called the battle of tabuk0:15:39 in the life of the prophet sallallahu0:15:41 alaihi allah please be upon him0:15:43 they stayed behind and allah says that0:15:45 you know0:15:47 about the three who stayed behind0:15:49 these three therefore they were wracked0:15:51 with guilt0:15:52 knowing of course that they've stayed0:15:54 behind everybody else has gone there by0:15:56 themselves now what to do they've made0:15:58 this sin it's a sin this act of0:16:00 disobedience against god and so allah0:16:03 then says the three who remained behind0:16:05 stayed behind held back0:16:10 until the earth became squeezed and0:16:13 tight and restricted0:16:15 for them even though the earth is0:16:17 spacious and wide0:16:20 all right0:16:20 how do you feel when you've sinned0:16:23 against god that's how you're supposed0:16:24 to feel you feel you know guilty you0:16:27 feel as if the earth is closing in0:16:29 around you you feel like what what are0:16:31 you supposed to do you've done something0:16:33 that is a terrible thing in the eyes of0:16:35 god right and that's how they felt0:16:38 and then allah says the earth therefore0:16:40 it was as if the earth was squeezed and0:16:42 restricted for them0:16:45 and their own souls their own selves0:16:48 were constricted and tight and0:16:50 restricted and squeezed for them they0:16:52 felt that sense of agitation0:16:55 and distance and they felt that sense of0:16:58 inner sense of remorse and then allah0:17:00 says0:17:01 and they realized0:17:04 there is no refuge from god except to0:17:07 god0:17:08 there is no0:17:09 escaping from god except going back to0:17:12 god0:17:13 no refuge except going back to god the0:17:16 only0:17:17 salvation they will find is with god0:17:19 himself they can't run anywhere or find0:17:22 help anywhere or seek assistance in0:17:25 anything or anyone or anywhere except0:17:27 with god himself0:17:29 that's the quranic paradigm about human0:17:32 salvation your only safety your only0:17:34 security your only peace of mind peace0:17:37 of heart0:17:38 is in god himself there's nothing else0:17:41 there's not in a stone or an idol or in0:17:43 a or mary or in jesus or in anybody0:17:46 except god himself that's the one that0:17:48 you've transgressed against that's the0:17:50 one you ask from now right and then0:17:52 allah says after this allah says now0:17:54 look at the comparison here similarity0:17:56 with the with the adamic model paradigm0:17:59 allah says0:18:02 then allah turned to them so that they0:18:04 tend to him0:18:05 right then allah turned to them so that0:18:07 they turned to him remember in adam's0:18:09 case it was allah turned to him first0:18:12 taught him first 25 so that he would0:18:14 turn to allah the same thing exists here0:18:17 then allah turned to them allah relented0:18:19 to them0:18:20 allah inclined to them so that they0:18:22 turned to him in repentance and allah is0:18:25 all forgiving allah is all merciful a0:18:26 beautiful paradigm here illustrating for0:18:29 us that concept of salvation in islam in0:18:32 light of the adam the adamic conundrum0:18:35 that we find you know going through from0:18:38 the biblical narrative to through0:18:40 centuries of christian theological0:18:42 debate about what happened with adam and0:18:45 his kind of cosmic significance between0:18:47 himself and god and and us as humans as0:18:49 his progeny and of jesus himself0:18:53 there's a lot of clarity therefore in0:18:54 the quranic in the quranic outlook may0:18:57 allah bless you all