Controversial Questions to Prof.Jonathan Brown and Dr. Shadee ElMasri (MH Podcast #6) (2020-07-06) #

0:00:00 [Music]
0:00:04 sorry come welcome to liable care - and
0:00:07 welcome to the sixth episode of the mah
0:00:09 podcast the [ __ ] podcast I'm here
0:00:11 with special guests
0:00:13 two very notable individuals that are
0:00:15 contributing contributing to the
0:00:16 academic kind of work and knowledge
0:00:19 production in the Muslim world we have
0:00:21 dr. sherry and Mosley who is a teacher
0:00:23 in the staff in Institute's that
0:00:25 corrects a few nights yes you Venus
0:00:27 society yep Venus Society apologies for
0:00:30 that and we have of course top Professor
0:00:33 Jonathan Brown who well-known and also a
0:00:37 professor in them was named the
0:00:39 University against it
0:00:40 Chicago Georgetown the Georgetown that's
0:00:45 Sean University not be mistaken with
0:00:50 George Washington University because you
0:00:55 went to George Washington minute
0:00:56 universe he didn't you did you your
0:00:58 muscle yeah I went to GW yep yeah and
0:01:01 used on your PhD in our University I was
0:01:07 gonna bag on George Washington I don't
0:01:12 want to be I don't want to be rude well
0:01:14 with the consortium I was able to take
0:01:16 one-third of all my classes at
0:01:18 Georgetown so I did enjoy that nice
0:01:19 musty library downstairs and I spent
0:01:22 hours there I took classes with Scott
0:01:25 Redford almost all my god that's really
0:01:28 interesting
0:01:31 Scott Redford his dad was like some
0:01:35 politician who ended up being ambassador
0:01:37 in Lebanon and he fell in love with the
0:01:40 Middle East he went to Harvard he became
0:01:43 an Islamic Arts an architecture you know
0:01:45 guy and ends up being teaching at
0:01:47 Georgetown so his classes were really
0:01:50 good yeah okay let's get started what
0:01:53 wouldn't talk to you guys about today
0:01:54 was some of the controversial things
0:01:57 that have been in the air in terms of
0:01:58 our approaches as Muslims as the Muslim
0:02:01 community to the LGBT rights movement
0:02:04 and I think we're all on the same page
0:02:06 from my reading of your works in terms
0:02:10 of how we view a man having
0:02:13 was another man for example the act
0:02:15 itself and the miscibility of the act as
0:02:18 per the Islamic edicts and
0:02:20 understandings the question really isn't
0:02:23 about this the question is about how do
0:02:26 we engage as the Muslim community with
0:02:29 LGBT groups now what I wanted to do is
0:02:34 because obviously on the obtain website
0:02:36 we have you've dr. Jonathan Brown is in
0:02:40 an article which dr. Shetty must be then
0:02:42 responds to is kind of like a refutation
0:02:44 of that of the article so what I wanted
0:02:48 and dr. Jonathan Brown just I think
0:02:54 maybe we can just go with I'm Jack
0:02:56 that's a D I think shoddy are you okay
0:03:00 with that
0:03:00 works for me yeah otherwise we're gonna
0:03:03 spend half the half the podcast is gonna
0:03:05 be saying our names yeah that's right
0:03:08 okay so Jack can you outline your
0:03:12 position in terms of what is this ratio
0:03:14 idea that you've had did you get this
0:03:17 idea from how did you come to this
0:03:19 conclusion and then we'll get ready to
0:03:25 okay I mean Rahim first of all thanks a
0:03:31 lot for having us on it's always really
0:03:33 pleasure to talk to people in the UK or
0:03:35 whoever is watching this in the universe
0:03:37 right I think I first of all I think you
0:03:40 actually introduced the issue really
0:03:43 well which is you know when we when we a
0:03:49 fiend so me and Omar sorry
0:03:51 Sheikh Omar right when me and chick Omar
0:03:54 we're talking about doing this right to
0:03:57 his back you go back to kind of 2015
0:03:59 there's the Oberkfell Supreme Court
0:04:01 ruling United States which basically
0:04:03 makes gay legal gay marriage illegal in
0:04:04 the United States everywhere and 2016
0:04:08 there was a discussion at am Jay the
0:04:11 American Muslim jurists Association I
0:04:13 think it was in Texas a camera we're in
0:04:15 Texas it was that year so when an Joe
0:04:17 there's like a whole discussion about
0:04:19 this issue about the gay marriage ruling
0:04:20 and how Muslims should like Fikri
0:04:24 position themselves and I socially
0:04:25 position himself
0:04:26 sir and like exactly the same issue they
0:04:30 found exactly the same things that shadi
0:04:32 and I were discussing in that count
0:04:33 foreigner point/counterpoint came up in
0:04:36 that discussion so our aim with that
0:04:39 point counterpoint was you're clean was
0:04:41 basically say okay let's let's show very
0:04:46 clearly what's agreed upon right so the
0:04:48 religious issue we want to show there's
0:04:50 no disagreement on this so there's no
0:04:52 disagreement about Lilith is Haram in
0:04:54 Islam we have a certain understanding of
0:04:56 sex and gender let's just put let's put
0:04:58 that aside so that that's not gonna get
0:05:00 questioned because otherwise we're gonna
0:05:02 go down the path of Muslims questioning
0:05:05 things that are my lumina Dean but you
0:05:07 know before we continue with the words
0:05:10 now but could you translate them okay so
0:05:12 things that are known as scent you know
0:05:14 axiomatically as part of the faith or
0:05:15 the prohibition on on homosexual acts in
0:05:19 Islam is is cut right it's it's
0:05:21 absolutely certain it's known from the
0:05:23 Koran from the Sunnah from fik from
0:05:25 Ajmer right cetera et cetera yeah um so
0:05:29 that's the idea was let's put this
0:05:31 religious like Dini issue aside and then
0:05:34 we'll be we're gonna talk about the
0:05:36 political question so what now that
0:05:38 Muslims you know we can very clearly
0:05:39 articulate what our religious views are
0:05:41 how do we deal socially and politically
0:05:44 with the challenges in our society so
0:05:46 that was the idea was like me and shadi
0:05:47 are gonna kind of core shadi was you
0:05:50 know he wasn't part of the discussion
0:05:51 yet right but it was the ideas a we're
0:05:53 gonna set kind of show the religious
0:05:56 parameters very clearly and then within
0:05:57 the we're gonna get into the political
0:05:59 discussion and there we're gonna show
0:06:01 what the different perspectives are so I
0:06:02 was going to come out with this idea of
0:06:05 kind of engagement and notion of kind of
0:06:07 pluralism and create you know promoting
0:06:11 a sort of soft liberal pluralistic
0:06:13 society in which different groups can
0:06:15 kind of pursue their own moral religious
0:06:17 visions or lifestyles under a shared
0:06:20 protection of Rights and shadi was you
0:06:22 know obviously gonna take the position
0:06:24 he took so that was it was really about
0:06:26 having like a political discussion about
0:06:28 how the American Muslim community was
0:06:29 going to position itself socially
0:06:31 politically on this important issue
0:06:33 unquestioned just before we continue
0:06:34 yeah I'm not sure if everyone would
0:06:38 agree
0:06:39 that the two spheres are mutually
0:06:43 exclusive so in the sense that you know
0:06:45 we can have a discussion about the
0:06:47 wealth and so on and that is strictly
0:06:50 political discussion with no kind of
0:06:53 religious ramifications what do you
0:06:54 think shyly quickly before we continue
0:06:56 with this because there seems to be an
0:06:58 assumption here that where we have I
0:06:59 would I would say I actually completely
0:07:01 agree with you that's that that's
0:07:04 exactly the kind of ground we wanted to
0:07:06 feel out in this discussion yeah yeah
0:07:10 it's a very important point yeah you
0:07:13 know the that Jonathan making in and
0:07:15 what is not to what is not it's not
0:07:18 separating between religion and politics
0:07:20 but it's really separating between
0:07:21 what's my lumina deem but their aura and
0:07:24 what is up for what son as allah a new
0:07:28 matter that requires maybe some yes
0:07:32 translation as allah is a new matter
0:07:35 that we are facing right now yes
0:07:37 requires in HD ed we're not talking
0:07:40 about it you had like the four methods
0:07:41 level HT had but we are forced to make a
0:07:43 PS based upon and works forced to make a
0:07:47 decision so what is that what that does
0:07:50 is it removes this the the difference of
0:07:52 opinion from one of which would render a
0:07:56 person like a cafeteria that which is
0:07:58 known in religion as india so it removes
0:08:01 it from that and brings it into the
0:08:02 sphere of a difference of opinion i
0:08:04 might feel that you're you're holding
0:08:07 something that's simple by said it is
0:08:09 one thing I would want to just kind of
0:08:11 probe you on here with this you I agree
0:08:14 with the fact that no one's trying to
0:08:16 classify anyone thank you know this is
0:08:17 not definitely not all trying to do we
0:08:19 respect everything everyone respects one
0:08:21 another here we don't yeah a few bar
0:08:23 this dichotomy if either at being
0:08:26 something which is within the religious
0:08:28 scope that is difference of opinion or
0:08:32 something which render someone a kafir
0:08:35 is something which someone might object
0:08:37 to someone could say there's a third
0:08:39 option a third option is that what
0:08:41 you're saying is Barton it was outside
0:08:43 of the religious parameters and and it
0:08:46 doesn't render you are careful or move
0:08:48 toward our or fascicle whatever that is
0:08:50 there as well like in the religious
0:08:51 literature
0:08:52 many things about the meaningful
0:08:54 outright false so from a religious
0:08:57 perspective the works women has them all
0:08:59 the world so many of the scholars they
0:09:01 will be things in them which we could
0:09:05 consider as well as incorrect is exactly
0:09:08 that's exactly it's not it's not gonna
0:09:10 we're not gonna now you know use this to
0:09:12 try and classify that individualist XYZ
0:09:16 that's a careful okay yeah or even let's
0:09:18 say we don't classify him but the view
0:09:20 itself
0:09:20 we-we've exit kufur and a bit and heresy
0:09:25 beta from we've exited that realm to a
0:09:28 view that can be either Boston or so on
0:09:31 or you know yeah correct
0:09:33 well if I once again I don't think
0:09:35 there's a problem with if someone says
0:09:37 the view is bida
0:09:38 it's different from saying that someone
0:09:40 and once again this is I'm sure everyone
0:09:43 here knows it but for the for the kind
0:09:46 of average viewer he's watching this if
0:09:48 someone says this view that for example
0:09:51 dr. Brown has his bid ah is this thing
0:09:55 which is newly invented into the
0:09:56 religion for the sake of argument
0:09:57 it doesn't mean now that he is the to
0:10:01 that right
0:10:01 Oh innovator so yeah which is like of
0:10:05 course yeah of course this is big like
0:10:08 that's the point of an as Allah right
0:10:09 the idea of a NASA this is we have
0:10:13 Muslims have not been in a position that
0:10:15 we know of in history in fact as far as
0:10:19 I know no society has been in a position
0:10:22 that we are in now regarding how modern
0:10:25 Western societies view sexuality and
0:10:29 gender like this it's a it's a novel so
0:10:33 any you know whatever our discussion and
0:10:36 our potential solutions are almost
0:10:39 certainly going to be unprecedented in
0:10:41 our tradition so I think that like using
0:10:46 words like I mean I'm not I know you're
0:10:47 not trying to attack me or something but
0:10:49 I think when we start talking words like
0:10:50 video it's like yeah like obviously
0:10:52 there's whirring we're in unprecedented
0:10:55 situation we're just trying to figure
0:10:57 out what is the way that we as Muslims I
0:11:02 think III Shadia you can disagree with
0:11:05 me if you if you do
0:11:06 I mean I think our both of our
0:11:08 objectives are how do we as Muslims
0:11:10 preserve our faith in our community how
0:11:12 do we do I'm gonna motto for net
0:11:14 hannahmont guard in the best way in our
0:11:15 society how do we preserve our religion
0:11:18 and spread it right because this is
0:11:20 wisdom and Angela that we believe
0:11:22 benefits people dunya laughter right so
0:11:24 how do we do that best yes that's the
0:11:27 discussion yeah so what is your position
0:11:30 how would you outline it in a nutshell
0:11:31 like I've read obviously your article
0:11:33 and you kind of categorized or classify
0:11:37 different views the rejectionist view
0:11:38 the neutralist view and then you had
0:11:41 your own Russell view how would you now
0:11:43 in terms of tryna abbreviate it as at
0:11:47 least wise as possible what is your view
0:11:49 in terms of how we do the LGBT movement
0:11:53 you know first of all by the way Shai do
0:11:56 you like if I if I'm talking too much
0:11:57 just you know go like this and be like a
0:12:00 man you've been talking too much no prop
0:12:01 up my hands I don't I don't want to I
0:12:03 don't distract from your your chance
0:12:05 right
0:12:05 aye aye aye this is gonna really annoy
0:12:09 you Muhammad but I actually don't think
0:12:11 you can talk about it succinctly why
0:12:15 because the situation has changed so
0:12:18 much since that all article was written
0:12:20 right so thousand they say that article
0:12:22 yeah we were that article I equals 2017
0:12:25 I can't run it was but like that's it
0:12:27 was a very beginning of Trump you're I
0:12:29 think right so things have changed so
0:12:31 much like that article in some ways is
0:12:33 like it's obsolete not because because
0:12:38 the discussion around the LGBT LGBT
0:12:40 discussion has moved so far so things
0:12:43 like gay marriage are not even an issue
0:12:45 anymore
0:12:46 now it's issues of like gender or how we
0:12:49 understand gender in schools how we talk
0:12:51 about discrimination and things like
0:12:53 that what our kids are gonna be taught
0:12:55 in school in public schools so that's I
0:12:57 think the bigger issue and so but I'd
0:12:59 say like you could look at it as an as a
0:13:01 developing discussion and so in that
0:13:05 sense what I would say is the the
0:13:08 question I was trying to or the point I
0:13:11 was trying to make in the ratio which I
0:13:12 think means rights affirmation common
0:13:15 cause Islamic were that oxy or something
0:13:16 like that I just made it up when I was
0:13:17 writing the article um yeah
0:13:20 is kind of what is the vision we have
0:13:23 for the United States as a country right
0:13:25 so one vision would be this kind of one
0:13:29 could call kind of Abrahamic tent vision
0:13:31 right so which is that the United States
0:13:34 a sort of this judeo-christian muslim
0:13:36 theistic nation honors God even though
0:13:39 it it grants religious liberty sort of
0:13:42 the the substrate of the country is one
0:13:44 that respects revelation that kind of
0:13:48 has a respect natural law respects like
0:13:51 human human beings linked to his own or
0:13:55 her own nature right and that nature
0:13:57 means something that it has some degree
0:13:59 of claim or control over us that our own
0:14:01 subjective identity doesn't determine
0:14:04 our nature um and it so that that would
0:14:06 be one vision right and they serve
0:14:09 muslims would be allowed to function and
0:14:11 flourish in that society the criticism
0:14:15 of that would be that the christian
0:14:18 right in this country is simply to
0:14:21 Islamophobic and too hostile to muslims
0:14:24 historically and in the present to
0:14:26 really allow muslims to exist in this
0:14:30 country
0:14:30 and this evidence for this would be
0:14:32 things like the fact that in 43 states
0:14:35 now there have either been passed or
0:14:37 proposed anti sharia bills that make it
0:14:40 illegal to follow Sharia in those states
0:14:42 and you can imagine by the way what that
0:14:44 means it potentially about things like
0:14:46 marriage like dr. Shah Dee's marriage or
0:14:48 my marriage right I have a Sharia
0:14:50 marriage which I have a little
0:14:51 certificate from the mosque so I'm going
0:14:53 to come and say you've broken the law by
0:14:55 having this marriage I hadn't happened
0:14:56 yet but that's just potentially what
0:14:59 might happen right um and the other
0:15:01 vision is that the kind of ratio vision
0:15:04 was that this country would be much more
0:15:08 like pluralistic diverse demographically
0:15:12 pluralistic morally even legally right
0:15:15 and that you can imagine almost like a
0:15:17 millet system in the Islamic tradition
0:15:19 where you have basically little
0:15:20 communities so there's Amish people here
0:15:22 there's Christian people here there's
0:15:23 Muslim people there the Muslims have
0:15:25 their own schools they have their own
0:15:26 social associations right and that the
0:15:28 the law is the actual law of the land is
0:15:32 very minimal in the waiting
0:15:34 poses moral or cultural views on these
0:15:38 different communities so that's much
0:15:40 more we cope we talk in political
0:15:41 sciences like kind of a soft liberalism
0:15:43 so if you're familiar with South Africa
0:15:45 much more like South Africa where you
0:15:48 know polygamy is legal all sorts of
0:15:50 different animal sacrifice is legal
0:15:52 because you have such a culturally
0:15:54 diverse country where as opposed to what
0:15:57 the United States is now and Britain is
0:16:00 now which is much more of a hard liberal
0:16:02 state where yeah there's freedom of
0:16:03 religion and the others freedom of you
0:16:05 know moral beliefs but really like
0:16:07 there's X but you know you
0:16:08 polygamy is allowed certain beliefs are
0:16:11 considered intolerant certain beliefs
0:16:13 speech is considered hate speech right
0:16:15 so I was really arguing that the US
0:16:18 should go and to have a more morally
0:16:20 pluralistic diverse direction but I
0:16:23 think the problem is and this will be
0:16:25 the last thing I say we're talking for a
0:16:27 long time which is if you look at the
0:16:29 development of American law since that
0:16:32 article was written 2017 it's we've gone
0:16:35 further down the knot we've we haven't
0:16:37 gone down the path towards something
0:16:40 that would make the ratio view possible
0:16:44 we've gone the other way right which we
0:16:46 actually become more hegemonic there's
0:16:49 like more of a hegemonic progressivism
0:16:52 and liberalism in our society and
0:16:55 actually right now literally right now
0:16:57 in the next few months we're gonna see
0:16:58 with the Supreme Court decision on
0:17:00 what's called st. James school we're
0:17:02 gonna see I think whether there's going
0:17:03 to be the final nail in the possibility
0:17:06 for really morally and religiously
0:17:07 plural country or if or if that's gonna
0:17:11 be allowed I don't know one question
0:17:14 before I get chatty on if that's all
0:17:16 right because then I think there's still
0:17:18 something to be said about the main
0:17:19 controversy about this particular essay
0:17:22 so let me read something that you've
0:17:24 written you said according to the Russia
0:17:25 opposition American Muslims should
0:17:28 support the right of gay marriage under
0:17:31 US law this is really the crux of the
0:17:34 problem here in terms of controversy
0:17:37 because people are saying on what
0:17:39 grounds on what Islamic grounds and when
0:17:43 you say the word should here is this
0:17:45 what MOBA is it
0:17:46 it's Berbers
0:17:48 is it doop is obligatory is it
0:17:50 recommended whoa what is the
0:17:52 classification that you're making it I
0:17:54 mean when you're saying we should in
0:17:57 fact engage in so much as we could
0:18:00 support the right of gay marriage
0:18:03 doesn't this seem very contrary to the
0:18:08 Dower of loot alehissalaam for example
0:18:10 who very much was opposed to these kind
0:18:13 of practices let alone facilitated it on
0:18:15 what islamic I don't think loot I don't
0:18:17 think Luther Latham talked about gay
0:18:19 marriage well he talked about sex
0:18:22 between men and men okay I mean look if
0:18:24 we want to talk about sex between men
0:18:26 and sexy and women
0:18:27 that's Haram like if someone comes to
0:18:29 ask me you know what should Muslims say
0:18:31 about me Watts they should say this is
0:18:33 Haram and they should do I'm gonna be
0:18:36 model for non-han and one car on that
0:18:38 they should say this is this is
0:18:39 considered sinful in my religion and I
0:18:42 don't believe it's pleasing to God why
0:18:45 doesn't the five common sense that if
0:18:47 the thing is Haram
0:18:49 then in which leads to it and
0:18:50 facilitates it no because you because
0:18:53 you're not I mean you don't I don't know
0:18:56 you know not to get too graphic but you
0:18:58 don't need to be married to do this
0:18:59 stuff right so like it's legal like this
0:19:02 the walk is legal in the United States
0:19:04 that's I mean why is Muslims do you need
0:19:10 to support gay marriage if it's like why
0:19:13 have you two recommended this with I
0:19:15 don't I don't I don't support gay
0:19:16 marriage I support the right to marriage
0:19:19 for gay people why is that because
0:19:22 because I I want the same what is look
0:19:26 at what what is that what was the gay
0:19:27 marriage case about he didn't say it
0:19:30 wasn't you know Ken gays get married it
0:19:32 was is does the government have a right
0:19:36 to say that marriage is only between a
0:19:38 man and a woman that's the that's the
0:19:41 debate right now my marriage and my
0:19:46 marriage is a Muslim is nothing to do
0:19:48 with the US government my marriage is
0:19:49 between is a contract between me and my
0:19:51 wife my wife's family in the eyes of all
0:19:54 loves my Allah
0:19:55 that's it like it doesn't matter if the
0:19:57 US government acknowledges that or not
0:19:59 okay so this is the Muslim marriage
0:20:02 and and what is pleasing to God is one
0:20:04 thing right now we have to look at the
0:20:05 issue what what is the I have a question
0:20:08 do you want the US government to say
0:20:11 that marriage the only marriage is going
0:20:13 to be legally recognized it's between a
0:20:16 man and a woman I'm more politically
0:20:19 active in that sense I don't I'm not
0:20:22 trying to persuade the US government to
0:20:24 do anything okay so I when I want my
0:20:28 position on personal position on the
0:20:30 matter is that for me the kind of defies
0:20:33 common sense especially if you're trying
0:20:36 to use muscle aha type arguments like at
0:20:39 one point seemed like you were trying to
0:20:41 insinuate that because it's kind of
0:20:43 dirty is kind of necessity now but we
0:20:45 need these people to help us in order to
0:20:48 they're the only one one of the only
0:20:50 groups out of us which is questionable
0:20:52 actually that the gay air rights groups
0:20:54 there so that we should help them in in
0:20:56 kind so I'm not I know I don't I don't
0:21:00 think that I say very akashi I say very
0:21:03 explicitly in the article this is not a
0:21:05 quid pro quo this is not a quid pro quo
0:21:09 because it would be we are not allowed
0:21:11 to advocate for something that's Haram
0:21:13 because somebody is something nice for
0:21:15 us so it's gay marshmallow then of
0:21:18 course not what do you what what you I'm
0:21:20 sorry to get upset like what universe
0:21:22 are people in that they think it's hello
0:21:24 like not only is it not hello but I've
0:21:27 written the most extensive article
0:21:30 rebutting any arguments that it is halal
0:21:32 and Islam okay you say okay you know
0:21:41 then but you said the word holla halal
0:21:43 means hello in Islam okay I want to say
0:21:47 you want to say legal or not legal
0:21:50 yeah that's not that's not even it is
0:21:52 legal that was our and that decision was
0:21:54 made before this article was written
0:21:56 right it's illegal and it's it is legal
0:21:58 in the United States right like that is
0:22:01 formed so is are you are you arguing on
0:22:03 muscle hydrant so let me let me make me
0:22:06 an meat repackage sorry so sorry go
0:22:10 ahead because you wrote a refutation
0:22:11 what what is your what I think Jack was
0:22:13 just saying right now is that he's
0:22:15 arguing that he does not want the
0:22:17 government involved in making moral
0:22:20 claims and decide Aryan view okay would
0:22:27 you see as you've written a response so
0:22:29 okay so one of my things is when I read
0:22:32 this about this interaction between the
0:22:35 Muslims and the law etc one of the
0:22:37 articles that you could read that also
0:22:38 summarizes something I don't know if
0:22:40 it's exactly
0:22:41 Jonathan's opinion but at the end
0:22:42 professor Fazal Mohamed falls off from
0:22:45 Toronto and he writes in his article
0:22:48 basically summarizes his position is
0:22:50 that if you allow discrimination against
0:22:55 gays in the workplace you open the door
0:22:58 for Muslims to be discriminated against
0:23:00 in the workplace that's his argument
0:23:01 right now he has to come upon the issue
0:23:04 is okay well are we therefore are we
0:23:08 supporting something that Allah
0:23:10 prohibited by doing this by backing that
0:23:12 group are we there for backing something
0:23:14 that Allah prohibited he says and this
0:23:17 is where I'm gonna no no my disagreement
0:23:19 and note where you know the seeds of
0:23:21 secularism are really in his article he
0:23:23 notes that we are obligated as Muslims
0:23:26 to uphold the contracts that we are upon
0:23:29 and we're upon this you know
0:23:32 Constitution and these leaves of the US
0:23:35 and therefore by advocating and
0:23:38 supporting and fulfilling those laws
0:23:40 we're doing our job because the prophets
0:23:42 I said and said and what we knew and I
0:23:43 in the shuttle to him believers have to
0:23:45 observe their contracts now my response
0:23:48 to him is that protecting covenants and
0:23:52 contracts that's that part is correct
0:23:55 but there's a condition that the
0:23:58 contract is valid and not what we said
0:24:01 also about it right so Mike my response
0:24:04 to him is that we're only supposed to
0:24:07 observe contracts that are in line with
0:24:11 the Sharia
0:24:11 now let's say well all of us our
0:24:14 citizenship were bound by laws of
0:24:18 Nations that you know we would never
0:24:20 author right and aren't even valid for
0:24:22 us okay
0:24:23 however they became binding upon us by
0:24:27 virtue of our birth it
0:24:29 doesn't necessarily mean we support them
0:24:31 right so there's a big there's a this is
0:24:34 tough seal really constantly separating
0:24:36 between matters just because something
0:24:38 is bounds upon me doesn't necessarily
0:24:40 mean I support it all right
0:24:42 I'm stuck with it what can I do okay but
0:24:44 I'm not forced to support it just
0:24:46 because I benefit from something and
0:24:48 that's what Johnny Jack was saying just
0:24:51 because they're benefits um does not
0:24:52 necessarily mean I gotta go and support
0:24:54 it right so that's those were my couple
0:24:57 our other points on the issue of this
0:25:01 idea of supporting the rights of LGBT
0:25:04 just because the Muslims will also
0:25:07 benefit from that I would say okay yes I
0:25:09 may benefit but I will sit back and
0:25:11 watch right I'm not going to actively
0:25:14 support I may benefit I may not right so
0:25:17 those were my points and my main issues
0:25:20 were the separation of a political
0:25:23 judgment from a 50 judgement okay from
0:25:26 her from a moral judgment but as a
0:25:29 method that's a problem and as a and as
0:25:33 a concept of covenants we can't forget
0:25:37 the condition for which we're to support
0:25:40 a contract or covenant or a law or
0:25:42 whatever is that it's valid in the
0:25:45 Sharia by the view of the Sharia all
0:25:47 right so let's know what a shudder yeah
0:25:49 yeah so for me what I was thinking
0:25:51 immediately is that and LeBron I think
0:25:54 we're gonna run out five minutes we're
0:25:55 gonna have to resolve this session if it
0:25:57 does can we just again yeah the session
0:26:00 so I was thinking in my mind about okay
0:26:04 so if we're arguing from muscle huh
0:26:06 which it seems like effectively this is
0:26:08 what this is an argument from God or a
0:26:10 Muslim then Muslim I can be you know
0:26:13 Muslim Allah and my Muslim Aloha it can
0:26:15 be Muslim osela but in this situation it
0:26:18 seems that it's very clear Muslim all of
0:26:21 our meaning something which is as you've
0:26:22 mentioned to share something which is in
0:26:24 opposition to the Sharia argument here
0:26:27 is that if it's something which you can
0:26:28 if it's morsella if it's something which
0:26:30 is MOBA and specially hasn't spoken
0:26:32 about it all this mullah I'm obviously
0:26:34 the Sharia allows itself mentions in its
0:26:36 text then it's different but the issue
0:26:38 here is that you have this issue if we
0:26:40 take for example the view that
0:26:43 a marriage outside of Islamic laws I
0:26:45 think the argument that I make is in
0:26:47 fact Muslim osela and it's not muha then
0:26:50 you have a third you have a secondary
0:26:51 problem which is what Ezeli mentioned is
0:26:54 Mustafa the idea that for most lucky to
0:26:56 be Marta bara it has to be a cotton
0:26:59 [ __ ] and has to be doubling now it
0:27:02 doesn't seem to me you can make the
0:27:03 argument that school eat dice it's for
0:27:05 the collective interest Wow it's very
0:27:07 difficult to make the argument that this
0:27:09 is cotton but in other words if we don't
0:27:11 support the gay rights movement on
0:27:13 homosexual marriage that we will be in
0:27:16 danger of for example death or one of
0:27:18 the rotten humps that there's gonna be
0:27:20 an impending genocide that will take
0:27:21 place this is what I think the whole
0:27:23 thing if we want to make him a Sunni
0:27:25 argument will literally flat fall flat
0:27:27 on his face and I find it difficult to
0:27:30 make an argument after that because my
0:27:32 question then would be if you can't
0:27:36 prove it okay that there's an imminent
0:27:37 threat to one of their for example the
0:27:39 rattle comes one of the five essential
0:27:41 things that we should react him to
0:27:43 protect
0:27:43 then on what grow slowly grounds um is
0:27:47 this argument being made so I want I
0:27:51 wanna be very very clear like I don't
0:27:53 even consider this to be uh is not a
0:27:56 silly argument okay this is not a fixie
0:27:59 this is not a fixie argument there's a
0:28:03 political argument I mean so I agree by
0:28:05 the way I think shaadi makes a really
0:28:07 good point which is that it and you've
0:28:10 also said this right which is that you
0:28:12 can't really separate politics and
0:28:15 morality right I completely agree and
0:28:17 and this is I mean the irony about this
0:28:19 is like I of all the positions I've
0:28:21 taken in my life this is the position to
0:28:24 which I'm least attached right I mean I
0:28:26 have zero Hashem in public I know you
0:28:29 have the Yama so when I came in like
0:28:41 playing some stereo as if you have
0:28:44 Hashem Basava and our kabbala here's a
0:28:47 bad night the day - this is like I don't
0:28:52 have a
0:28:55 some strong attachment to this position
0:28:58 I could well be wrong right this is
0:29:00 about what is like the what does the
0:29:02 decision is best going to promote
0:29:04 Muslims and our ability to be Muslim in
0:29:07 the society that's what I'm concerned
0:29:10 here's this here's here's here's the
0:29:12 issue right um I don't
0:29:16 I've never advocated for gay marriage
0:29:20 right I've advocated for the change of
0:29:25 law that says that I've advocated that
0:29:29 it is not right that the US government
0:29:32 says that marriage can only be between a
0:29:33 man and a woman that's the only thing
0:29:35 right so I that's what I want that's
0:29:38 what I thought Muslims should support
0:29:39 Muslims should support the minimal
0:29:43 restrictions of what marriage means in
0:29:45 our country even though according to our
0:29:47 government you know what your your
0:29:49 maneuver would have been better if you
0:29:52 had not given a specific and went back
0:29:55 it's Jack yeah yeah it would if you had
0:29:59 not entered into a specific and just
0:30:01 backtracked and said I believe that the
0:30:04 US government should not determine
0:30:06 certain moral moral should not enter and
0:30:09 define certain moral matters okay yeah I
0:30:12 agree with you fine that's a good point
0:30:13 yeah but then I have a question okay so
0:30:15 let's say that's what you let's say
0:30:16 that's what we decided we're gonna try
0:30:18 and push for it
0:30:19 and now somebody comes and says okay do
0:30:22 you support this which side of the
0:30:24 obergefell case you're gonna come down
0:30:25 on the one that says merit asks me
0:30:27 between men only you to man and woman or
0:30:29 the one that says that marriage doesn't
0:30:31 necessarily have to be between a man
0:30:32 woman if that's our objective as we've
0:30:35 as you've suggested I'm not saying
0:30:37 that's your opinion but your your
0:30:38 strategy that you're proposing for me
0:30:39 right um that would necessitate us
0:30:42 taking the quote-unquote gay marriage
0:30:45 side in the obergefell decision right so
0:30:48 that was actually precisely what I was
0:30:50 taking
0:30:51 um because I mean that may that might be
0:30:57 a good position right but I think that's
0:31:00 that doesn't really reflect the reality
0:31:02 the social reality in our country and
0:31:05 probably in Britain too which is that
0:31:06 people want to know what your opinion is
0:31:09 like you can't tell Muslim kids in high
0:31:15 school we're getting asked this question
0:31:17 by their friends you know that you got
0:31:19 to give them an answer you have to give
0:31:21 them it's equipped them to answer these
0:31:22 questions that's really what I was
0:31:24 trying to do is to help you how do you
0:31:26 equip young Muslims with a way to think
0:31:29 about this issue publicly but you know
0:31:31 that sometimes arriving at silence on a
0:31:34 matter is a thought-out process and
0:31:37 that's the result is that I literally
0:31:40 cannot choose one or the other like you
0:31:43 cannot choose either one for example the
0:31:45 left and the right okay in America and
0:31:48 probably England the same thing
0:31:49 worldwide right not the the nativists
0:31:51 cultures in Europe versus the the
0:31:54 leftists the I think the most accurate
0:31:57 position is that you cannot take a
0:31:59 position that's a judgment that I've
0:32:01 went through it and you cannot choose a
0:32:03 side because both sides have something
0:32:05 that we would stand for and both sides
0:32:08 have mutual have non-starters that we
0:32:11 cannot ever side with right so it is a
0:32:14 sort of results it results in we have to
0:32:18 form our own platform of things right on
0:32:20 things so our platform is going to be
0:32:22 very unique
0:32:22 we're dead against racism on one side
0:32:25 right we're very much for racial racial
0:32:29 diversity equal distribution of wealth
0:32:31 sounds like all these like left swing
0:32:34 things right but at the same time we're
0:32:37 we're dots we don't support taxes
0:32:40 taxation without you know do cause
0:32:42 cousin Sharia that's an issue we don't
0:32:45 support homosexuality so it's not only
0:32:48 we don't support it we're against it
0:32:49 right so our platform is gonna become a
0:32:53 merger that nobody recognizes right and
0:32:56 that's why that's really the best thing
0:32:58 to teach our youth is that we have a
0:33:00 platform that's neither left nor right
0:33:02 and you can never be do I agree with you
0:33:05 hundred percent yeah and I've actually
0:33:07 not to promote my own work but like you
0:33:09 know I've written about this on you
0:33:10 clean on issues of toxic masculinity and
0:33:13 things like that so I agree like the
0:33:15 prophetic model is not a right model or
0:33:18 a left model right it's a prophetic
0:33:19 model and we should you know considering
0:33:21 the dead
0:33:23 and the state of non functionality that
0:33:27 American politics society is in right
0:33:29 now and probably British too right
0:33:31 like people need answers and we should
0:33:33 provide answer which is this prophetic
0:33:35 model and just because you support the
0:33:37 idea that the government should not
0:33:39 define certain things does not
0:33:41 necessarily mean that you have supported
0:33:44 all the secondary consequences to that
0:33:45 right so it may you may argue the wisdom
0:33:48 but if I say listen government Uncle Sam
0:33:51 I don't want you telling us you know
0:33:54 what marriages well that's true he is he
0:33:57 can't I'm basically saying Uncle Sam
0:33:59 don't make tisha dia so that's actually
0:34:01 a valid position right
0:34:03 the secondary consequences of that may
0:34:05 be you know certain things that are hot
0:34:07 certain things that are crazy right
0:34:08 Haram but I haven't necessarily I'm not
0:34:12 guilty of supporting those Haram things
0:34:15 right so the question may be is it wise
0:34:17 or is it not is the current status
0:34:19 closer to the Sharia or is are those
0:34:21 secondary consequences positive and
0:34:23 negative closer to the city I so then
0:34:26 you do Muslim off so that kind of
0:34:27 analysis well actually let me only
0:34:30 honestly some migas
0:34:31 you know to be honest like sitting in
0:34:33 the year since that article was written
0:34:36 the way things have changed have
0:34:39 developed honestly I become much closer
0:34:42 to sha Dee's position and I'll tell you
0:34:45 why right it's not actually it's because
0:34:47 of how okay let me start again right so
0:34:51 since let's say the beginning of the
0:34:54 Trump presidency right there were two
0:34:57 there were two options right so there
0:34:59 was this the kind of democratic party
0:35:01 that laughed so to speak right
0:35:03 especially the progressive left left
0:35:04 embraced Muslim so there were two
0:35:07 possibilities right one is that and this
0:35:10 was always the danger that nobody agreed
0:35:12 with right or that I know all right
0:35:13 which was that Muslims would by the
0:35:18 progressive argument hook line and
0:35:20 sinker drink the whole bottle of
0:35:22 kool-aid right that was what we were
0:35:26 always afraid of right that Islam would
0:35:27 just become an identity you know you
0:35:29 have the the like the the Latino person
0:35:33 the LGBT person and the Muslim person
0:35:35 these are just all these different
0:35:36 equivalent
0:35:37 you know minority groups who all agree
0:35:41 with all the same same moral vision this
0:35:44 was the danger right so then you'd have
0:35:46 Muslims celebrating things they can't
0:35:49 celebrate in their religion right doing
0:35:52 things like dancing and gay pride
0:35:53 parades Muslims shouldn't dance and gay
0:35:55 pride parades you can't celebrate these
0:35:58 kind of actions you can if you want you
0:36:01 can say I support certain rights
0:36:02 I want sort of the law to be a certain
0:36:04 way right to protect your rights but I'm
0:36:06 not gonna actually support a certain
0:36:08 lifestyle that I don't agree with the
0:36:09 problem is that all the the most
0:36:11 prominent Muslims involved in the kind
0:36:14 of left-wing social justice alliance
0:36:17 have completely gone junk in the
0:36:20 kool-aid completely they've they've
0:36:22 engaged in expressions that are really
0:36:26 compromised their positions as Muslims
0:36:28 and make it impossible for me as a
0:36:32 Muslim to come out and support what
0:36:34 they've done now I will not I'm not
0:36:36 gonna gang up on those people right you
0:36:38 know if I see these someone like you
0:36:40 know al Han Omar Kong Hong Kong's woman
0:36:42 no more this woman gets so many death
0:36:44 threats from right wing lunatics she has
0:36:47 her own security detail provided her by
0:36:49 Congress okay so this this of this
0:36:52 Isabel oh my Muslim sister I will not I
0:36:56 will not gang up on her and engage in
0:36:59 some kind of public trashing of this
0:37:01 person to increase the burden on her
0:37:02 shoulders but I do not agree with some
0:37:04 of the things she said and done and the
0:37:06 doing those things and in advocating
0:37:09 those things she's made it effectively
0:37:10 impossible for me as a Muslim I think to
0:37:13 support her program it's a very
0:37:15 difficult position it makes me very sad
0:37:17 that this is the course that's happened
0:37:18 over the last two to three years I
0:37:20 didn't I hoped it wouldn't happen but I
0:37:22 unfortunately I think that's the path
0:37:24 we've been going down which as I said
0:37:25 before is a path that is making the
0:37:27 rokkyo position almost impossible to
0:37:30 advocate for as it's just it's not a
0:37:32 realistic possibility right now sorry
0:37:36 just them fortunately getting wolf I
0:37:38 just wanted to kind of summarize what
0:37:39 I've understood from both of you
0:37:42 obviously I think that about two years
0:37:44 ago when this article was was first
0:37:47 published until now you're saying that
0:37:49 there's been changes
0:37:51 which have made it kind of them
0:37:52 impossible very impractical based to
0:37:55 advocate such a position in that from
0:37:58 the slam expect the masala
0:37:59 wouldn't be as maybe you calculate him
0:38:02 to be at that time it also admitted
0:38:05 really that this is not an Islamic
0:38:06 argument you weren't using the language
0:38:08 of us all and and all of these things it
0:38:11 was more political argument so you could
0:38:13 put in other ways at this this ratio
0:38:16 approach has got nothing to do with this
0:38:17 slap in a sense and if I actually I
0:38:20 actually I mean I yeah in effect yeah I
0:38:23 would I mean I don't I don't I mean I
0:38:25 don't sees nothing to do with Islam
0:38:27 because I'm Muslim and I wouldn't be
0:38:28 thinking about the stuff it's not I'm
0:38:31 not making some like kousouli argument
0:38:33 definitely not yes offense well
0:38:35 something like this or is she had I mean
0:38:39 I'm sorry like what are Muslims like
0:38:41 smoking some kind of weird drug or
0:38:43 something like when did this say as like
0:38:45 this is a fatwa I mean this is a this is
0:38:47 our Muslim so immensely unsophisticated
0:38:50 that they can't actually talk about
0:38:52 political issues you know the issue is I
0:38:59 can apologize even right so obviously if
0:39:02 it's gone apologetic remap people are
0:39:04 thinking that what you're gonna be
0:39:06 talking about or writing about is in
0:39:08 line or at least through the prism of
0:39:11 the religious it's worse so I see what
0:39:14 you're saying I you know it's not
0:39:16 something which is Islamic it's
0:39:17 something which you didn't intend them
0:39:19 to be like a French for sense and it's
0:39:22 got nothing to do with Islam well then
0:39:23 one could question in fact that why is
0:39:25 it on your clean them because your pain
0:39:26 is more an apologetic remiss it's more
0:39:29 of no no no that's I mean look I I
0:39:32 understand that you know that's your
0:39:35 view and tell me what my view that but
0:39:37 that's actually not one of the things we
0:39:39 were trying to do with this point
0:39:42 counterpoint with you dr. shadi and I
0:39:43 was actually just trying to provide some
0:39:45 guidance and structuring the discussion
0:39:48 around this issue so not in an
0:39:51 apologetic sense like I mean let me let
0:39:54 me mean III again I'm not criticizing
0:39:57 what you said but like if we're trying
0:39:58 to promote some like wishy-washy liberal
0:40:01 brand of Islam why would we invite dr.
0:40:03 shadi to give the cup
0:40:05 point they would just have my article
0:40:06 and then be like dr. Shelley's an idiot
0:40:08 II can't write sup here no so you don't
0:40:10 your invite someone who gives an
0:40:12 argument that you know is a really good
0:40:14 argument book shop dr. sadi argument is
0:40:16 an excellent argument it's an excellent
0:40:19 argument I said to this ok someone could
0:40:25 come back and say is that look well
0:40:26 actually was what's going on is that
0:40:28 you're making it seem as if there's a
0:40:29 religious debate or where there's no
0:40:31 religious dip according to your own
0:40:32 admission well what what right it's not
0:40:34 a religious debate it's a political what
0:40:37 what it was is an academics do this and
0:40:40 maybe some people aren't really aware
0:40:42 but academics conduct war games right
0:40:45 like what if we said this right then
0:40:48 what would the response I viewed it as a
0:40:50 type of that like it that that your
0:40:53 position was sort of what if what if we
0:40:56 did this what if that were the case sort
0:40:59 of exploring an option right and then my
0:41:03 job was to come in and and be you know
0:41:05 like they when they hire a retired
0:41:07 general come and you're the opponent
0:41:09 right and let's just see if this
0:41:11 strategy is gonna work in a war yeah
0:41:13 right and so that that was my job to
0:41:15 poke all the holes in it so what that's
0:41:19 how I felt that it was it's rather than
0:41:21 you know a hard-and-fast program that
0:41:24 he's gonna be doing speaking tours on it
0:41:25 so that's how I buta was just like I'm
0:41:28 really interested in the the soft
0:41:30 liberal type of war game where we say
0:41:33 what if it was promoted in a society
0:41:36 that every grouping and I actually
0:41:39 believe this is you know probably better
0:41:41 for us you forget citizenship of where
0:41:44 you're born it's what is your law
0:41:46 alright what is your law that's a more
0:41:50 accurate way to categorize people than
0:41:52 what land you were born it and then
0:41:53 based upon what your law is that's how
0:41:56 you'll be judged and interacts right hmm
0:41:59 okay
0:42:00 and so I I could say I'm Muslim someone
0:42:02 else could say I'm a progressive liberal
0:42:03 someone is someone and then when I when
0:42:06 I go to court with a Muslim I'm gonna go
0:42:07 to court right in that court and then
0:42:10 but we'd have to extrapolate that
0:42:12 because it's gonna lead to a whole bunch
0:42:13 of different classes but that's what
0:42:15 there's a guy in England and LSC what
0:42:17 was his name John
0:42:18 Jack what was his name that guy he put
0:42:21 forth this idea that it's it's this is
0:42:23 the super soft liberalism yeah I know
0:42:27 you might buy their law he is he has
0:42:29 like a really he's like your Eastern
0:42:32 Europe name his name is impossible yeah
0:42:34 you're talking about
0:42:35 he's an Eastern you now the US has gone
0:42:37 the exact were like fascist liberals
0:42:39 right now so it's it's I think this is I
0:42:42 and this is the point I was trying to
0:42:43 make which was that see if you go back
0:42:45 to like 2016 until and I I want to
0:42:48 stress this we are going to see within
0:42:50 the next few months we're gonna see a
0:42:52 shoe drop and it's either gonna be in
0:42:55 this place or it's gonna be in that
0:42:56 place it's the st. James school case
0:42:57 that has to do with the excope of the
0:42:59 ministerial exemption which I sent you
0:43:01 guys readings on right and if that scope
0:43:03 is narrow if it takes if it takes
0:43:05 edition of the 9th Circuit Court the
0:43:08 ability of Muslims on other religious
0:43:10 communities to have their own bubbles of
0:43:12 existence is going to be extremely
0:43:14 limited if that case comes down with an
0:43:18 expansive wide understanding of what the
0:43:20 ministerial exemption is then it's gonna
0:43:22 make it a lot more possible nothing
0:43:25 close to what dr. shadi suggested but a
0:43:27 lot closer to what he's suggesting than
0:43:28 otherwise so that's what I was hoping is
0:43:32 we would go down a path more towards a
0:43:34 soft liberal morally pluralistic even
0:43:37 legally polish society and not one in
0:43:40 which a either a kind of progressive
0:43:42 hegemony or judeo-christian Western
0:43:45 European hegemony was going to be
0:43:47 enforced and everybody in the country in
0:43:49 fact what we have right now is a battle
0:43:51 between these two things neither of
0:43:53 which are very welcoming to Muslims yeah
0:43:55 and we should hope that gore suits maybe
0:43:58 it feels a little bit guilty and owes
0:43:59 one to the right right that's that's
0:44:02 what I was thinking like when that when
0:44:04 the boast boasts a County Court decision
0:44:07 came down I was like this is only gonna
0:44:09 work if the st. James school comes with
0:44:12 a really expansive understanding
0:44:15 administrable exemption so you say no
0:44:17 worse no no discrimination based on
0:44:20 gender and sexuality etcetera etc but
0:44:22 the area in which you can have
0:44:25 discrimination because of religious leaf
0:44:26 is gonna be big yeah but if they make
0:44:28 that area small it's gonna be a disaster
0:44:31 it's gonna be disastrous and but this
0:44:33 also goes to show them that there are
0:44:36 some method methodologies that can last
0:44:38 longer than others so a methodology
0:44:41 where it says listen I'm just gonna go
0:44:42 by you know the letter of the law I'm
0:44:44 not gonna you know engage in some kind
0:44:50 of a you know political operation
0:44:53 because the game the game's changing
0:44:55 constantly right everything's constantly
0:44:58 changing and who you have to be with now
0:45:00 is you maybe you know it harms you later
0:45:03 so that's where the idea of where when I
0:45:06 make the conclusion that I'm actually
0:45:07 stepping back okay may actually end up
0:45:10 having you know a long term stability to
0:45:14 that view because the game keeps
0:45:15 changing you know and who knows that how
0:45:18 Muslims in the future will not be viewed
0:45:20 as you know these people of color that
0:45:22 can be banded into you know the minority
0:45:25 groups we might actually be viewed as
0:45:27 eventually be viewed in with the
0:45:29 opposites outside or in our own yeah my
0:45:32 biggest my biggest in this whole
0:45:33 situation
0:45:34 and I'll be honest with you is playing
0:45:35 especially go to North America and
0:45:37 interact with young people my biggest
0:45:40 fear is that when I actually have
0:45:41 conversations with them what it seems to
0:45:45 because you've got me like in Hamamatsu
0:45:46 and others like her who go to the grave
0:45:50 the gay pride parade and the dancing
0:45:53 around with them is it seems to me a lot
0:45:56 of these young people have this
0:45:59 assumption or belief that people like
0:46:01 ill hanim are and others like them are
0:46:03 getting the backing they got you know
0:46:07 people like Jonathan Brown because of
0:46:09 articles like the ones Israel which if
0:46:11 you think about what he said today
0:46:12 obviously what you've just said today in
0:46:14 wait hang hang on only say I wrote in
0:46:17 that article against why Muslims should
0:46:21 not go in gay pride parades I wrote in
0:46:23 that article a year before she danced in
0:46:25 the grave on gay pride parade why are
0:46:30 you saying was that best you get exactly
0:46:32 what you said you can you can quote
0:46:34 exactly what I say because I gave
0:46:36 precisely why Muslims should not I don't
0:46:41 think you said don't go to the gay pride
0:46:43 parade but you said I did I
0:46:45 percent said it Goyo don't don't look at
0:46:48 a piece of paper man go push the website
0:46:50 read the article I've written it
0:46:52 word-for-word believe me believe me III
0:46:54 was looking very closely at what you
0:46:56 said and because what you said about it
0:46:58 is that in basically something to do
0:47:00 with they should Muslims shouldn't do
0:47:03 something to affect us Muslims should do
0:47:05 something they're not comfortable with
0:47:06 but you didn't make it categorically
0:47:07 clear that Muslims should not go to gay
0:47:10 pride parades he said you nestled in
0:47:12 couch do no no I'm very clear I said
0:47:16 Muslims should not participate in gay
0:47:17 Paree
0:47:18 go go go I mean let me say something I'm
0:47:23 gonna defend myself I'm gonna find a
0:47:25 website okay doing that let me make a
0:47:28 comment while Jack is finding it that a
0:47:31 lot of people on the Internet
0:47:33 people actually need to learn a soul of
0:47:36 how to make a conclusion on the internet
0:47:38 because a single quote let's say he did
0:47:40 say that right well we have in the Quran
0:47:44 yeah you have multiple masseuse right
0:47:46 and you have to bring all the suits
0:47:48 before you make a conclusion 45 minute
0:47:52 essay it's not like 77 thousand words of
0:47:54 the Quran this is much more easy to make
0:47:56 oh no but a person should individual an
0:48:02 individual makes multiple statements
0:48:03 let's say right yeah in the course of a
0:48:05 year two three four years on an issue
0:48:07 makes multiple statements right so you
0:48:10 have to couch one statement that may be
0:48:13 ambiguous you have to also put it in in
0:48:15 line with all the other statements right
0:48:17 and see okay daddy's position is correct
0:48:26 and one of the things I think we should
0:48:28 be doing by the way I mean I'm not you
0:48:30 know people like you Muhammad a job
0:48:33 people like shadi who really like you
0:48:36 guys need to raise the bar you guys need
0:48:37 to pull Muslims up none of this like
0:48:40 nonsense I heard this somebody told me
0:48:42 that
0:48:43 did you really say this I didn't write
0:48:49 like a 500 page book this is like you
0:48:51 know what nice by the way for those
0:48:54 viewers are watching you've written a
0:48:56 very good I don't hurry
0:48:58 was about slavery which I recently
0:49:00 bought it was a very good book it's a
0:49:02 doorstop yeah mashallah
0:49:04 okay yeah I'm nervous I'm everyday I am
0:49:07 frequently asked by Muslim student
0:49:09 groups about how they should respond
0:49:11 imitations to participate in Gay Pride
0:49:13 rage which can be let's just say a
0:49:15 little bit too edgy from Muslim sense of
0:49:17 public propriety and modesty my response
0:49:20 don't lapse into thinking that
0:49:22 supporting someone's right is an
0:49:25 all-or-nothing relationship let's
0:49:27 imagine a comical Muslim rights parade
0:49:29 for Muslims parade with burkas and long
0:49:31 beards angrily chanting and condemning
0:49:34 physical contact between sexes outside
0:49:36 of marriage frying pork and alcohol
0:49:37 would we expect our allies from the LGBT
0:49:41 community and other groups to march with
0:49:43 us of course not they'd the understand
0:49:45 of the on control with some of these
0:49:46 expressions of Muslim this quote-unquote
0:49:48 similarly Muslims can affirm their
0:49:51 support for some eligible I brought here
0:49:52 for LGBT rights but I would say some
0:49:54 LGBT rights right commitments right no
0:49:58 no I wrote I wrote I wrote LGBT rights
0:50:00 but I made very clear in the article
0:50:02 that I don't support all of them right
0:50:03 commit themselves to being present other
0:50:06 rallies and in efforts to lobby
0:50:08 lawmakers without participating in
0:50:10 events that might be outside Muslim
0:50:12 country but you said they can commit
0:50:13 themselves to go through rallies that's
0:50:16 what you said no go go to a rally about
0:50:17 discrimination like if there's if
0:50:19 there's a rally right where someone says
0:50:21 you know we're being beaten up or we're
0:50:25 being abused by police or being called
0:50:27 names and publicly and I'd be like no
0:50:31 one should be caught treated like this
0:50:32 for sure
0:50:33 Bojack right you just said here very you
0:50:36 said that you say you read it yourself
0:50:37 right you said that you can't go to the
0:50:40 rally but just don't do things which are
0:50:42 X Y is it right no no no there's Gay
0:50:44 Pride Parade is not a rally okay Gay
0:50:48 Pride Parade is a Gay Pride Parade a
0:50:50 rally is a political rally but you can
0:50:53 have a political rally that's premise on
0:50:55 on Gabe LGBT rights now I have a there's
0:50:59 a problem that always comes up on this
0:51:00 and that problem is that there is a type
0:51:03 of link where oftentimes normal human
0:51:06 rights like don't not getting beat up
0:51:09 while walking in the street is
0:51:10 oftentimes
0:51:12 couched as in LGBT right and there's
0:51:14 that sometimes a confusion there right I
0:51:16 guess I'll be honest with you I'm an
0:51:18 outsider and I'm a fan of Jonathan Brown
0:51:20 I've got enough you know I love didn't
0:51:22 from Bravo 0 al I've read his stuff and
0:51:24 I share his stuff and I rep I'm actually
0:51:26 referenced you in one of my books as
0:51:27 well so thank you this is not this is
0:51:30 not from a person who's a hater or some
0:51:32 ways I'm just being honest T so it's
0:51:35 like the Muslims are all complementarily
0:51:37 trying to achieve the same objective
0:51:40 what I'm saying is this is that when you
0:51:42 when I read that myself my question is
0:51:45 my question to myself is he saying that
0:51:48 you can go to the rally but not do
0:51:50 certain acts in that rally for example
0:51:52 maybe dancing or something like that so
0:51:54 in other words it's not categorical
0:51:56 enough by way of prohibition like in
0:51:58 terms of if if your view is that they
0:52:00 should not be Muslims young Muslims go
0:52:04 into rallies which lgbt-related and you
0:52:06 don't want people to use your own
0:52:08 material as as a kind of backing for
0:52:12 that or a way to try and legitimize that
0:52:15 practice that I believe that the the
0:52:17 phraseology in that and in that
0:52:19 particular passage there was not
0:52:21 decisive I have to be honest ok that's
0:52:24 you know what I can I'm happy to go and
0:52:27 actually edit that and say and because I
0:52:30 didn't I didn't think that I didn't
0:52:32 think of rally and the Pride Parade is
0:52:34 the same thing at all right so I will I
0:52:36 will go and I will edit that and I will
0:52:39 make it clearer and in fact I'll even
0:52:41 put in some rights because I wrote that
0:52:43 very in other parts of the paper do you
0:52:45 think it makes sense because you just
0:52:47 said in this podcast that I mean you
0:52:50 were being introspective and you said
0:52:51 that you've kind of moved away from the
0:52:52 whole rational approach it's something
0:52:54 you don't really believe in anymore and
0:52:56 you move more towards opinion so just
0:52:58 take this whole thing down with you wait
0:52:59 wait hang on I believe in the ratio
0:53:01 approach I don't believe it's been me I
0:53:04 believe it has been foreclosed on by
0:53:06 developments in American politics
0:53:08 Society I I still believe in it so what
0:53:12 I don't believe it's I believe it is
0:53:14 much less possible now that what part of
0:53:17 it do you cuz we've already established
0:53:19 that you this is not really an Islamic
0:53:21 argument you've accepted that the
0:53:23 criticisms that okay that's a lot of
0:53:24 this stuff could be
0:53:25 used as a way of justifying people you
0:53:28 know literally supporting things which
0:53:31 might be prohibited in Islam don't you
0:53:33 think no I am enjoy I've been accepted
0:53:35 that because I don't think that's true I
0:53:36 think if somebody looks at this article
0:53:38 and thinks that somehow I'm trying to
0:53:39 say that we should support things are
0:53:42 Haram and our religion that that's just
0:53:45 not accurate III think that's not
0:53:46 accurate at all I don't think it was the
0:53:48 idea that you accepted also you've
0:53:51 accepted that something like this
0:53:53 article is not really meant it's not
0:53:55 trying to reason through the Islamic
0:53:57 paradigm it's not trying to reason to it
0:54:00 is actually a liberal ugh it's a secular
0:54:02 argument like oh like what I shared he
0:54:04 said in his article says yeah yeah I'd
0:54:07 say it's a true liberal argument so why
0:54:12 would you put that on its a try I'm
0:54:15 actually happy to own that like yes I'm
0:54:17 making a soft liberal argument for
0:54:20 minimal state invasion in telling people
0:54:23 how to live but that's not your that's
0:54:26 not that's not who you are Jennifer
0:54:28 Bryan you're a person who usually argues
0:54:29 through the Islamic paradigm you're not
0:54:32 progressive Muslim that's at least how I
0:54:34 interpret yeah okay but let's like I
0:54:37 mean I'm not I don't want to have a
0:54:40 tendency to get really angry so I'm just
0:54:41 not when I say that's a soft liberal
0:54:48 argument right what I mean is something
0:54:49 exact with dr. shadi was saying earlier
0:54:51 which is in the West and by the way this
0:54:55 is the state that the nature of the
0:54:57 pre-modern state in general is it did
0:54:59 not get involved in people's lives the
0:55:01 state basically provide law and order it
0:55:04 had an army to defend against invasions
0:55:06 and pretty much everything else was up
0:55:07 to the be just civil society right yeah
0:55:10 the modern state gets involved in
0:55:13 everything tells you what your kids are
0:55:15 gonna learn when their kindergarteners
0:55:16 tells you a color you can paint your
0:55:18 house if you can have chickens in your
0:55:20 backyard etc etc right so that's the
0:55:22 modern state it's it's omnipresent
0:55:24 invasive what I'm arguing for is a true
0:55:27 like original pure liberal idea of the
0:55:31 government not getting involved in
0:55:33 people's moral lives right the people
0:55:34 that a religious community has a right
0:55:36 to live its own life
0:55:39 interact with other communities in a
0:55:41 society that is minimally invasive well
0:55:43 if you said that and not specified gay
0:55:47 rights or gays or a gay marriage which
0:55:49 you explicitly specified Muslims should
0:55:52 support gay marriage on the US law I
0:55:54 said the right to gay marriage yeah okay
0:55:57 same a difference not the same thing
0:56:01 big difference okay I agree
0:56:06 do you support gay marriage no say no I
0:56:07 don't I don't believe this is pleasing
0:56:09 to God what do you believe in and do you
0:56:12 believe in a law that defines marriage
0:56:14 is something in which gay people have a
0:56:16 right to marry because we all we're not
0:56:18 going to define marriage obscene man and
0:56:19 woman I'd say yes of course I support so
0:56:22 you but you basically what you're saying
0:56:23 then is you're saying that you don't
0:56:26 believe that the government should
0:56:28 decide on the form of the merit or
0:56:30 should look like or how it should be the
0:56:31 fact ha yes exactly
0:56:34 okay see you see you see this yeah if
0:56:36 you said that there would be no
0:56:37 controversy
0:56:38 well III genuinely believe if you said
0:56:40 this if you said it the way you just
0:56:42 said it now which I'm very happy with
0:56:44 and I don't have any problem but if you
0:56:46 had that there would be no controversy
0:56:48 but unfortunately because of the the
0:56:51 possibility of misrepresentation here
0:56:53 and the fact that some people could be
0:56:57 using what you're saying to say well as
0:56:59 Muslims were allowed to support gay
0:57:02 marriage or get the right to gay
0:57:04 marriage which for vernacular is for
0:57:07 people under in the lay audiences
0:57:09 they're not going to really see the
0:57:10 difference isn't now it kind of rescues
0:57:13 the spiritual disaster that could be
0:57:16 right people thinking that people
0:57:19 actually not knowing the dividing line
0:57:20 between most Haledon haram that's the I
0:57:22 believe that's the biggest problem that
0:57:24 can come out of this like I said I'm
0:57:25 speaking to people in Norfolk North
0:57:27 America many young people were concerned
0:57:29 I have to say they were saying this is
0:57:30 what's happening in our mark this was
0:57:32 happening this Linda Sarsour
0:57:34 and the arcane is saying quiet not yes
0:57:36 sorry I can bother people I didn't Brown
0:57:38 yeah Jonathan I'm sorry Jack it's
0:57:41 staying quiet on the issue and in fact
0:57:43 it seems like he's giving them the
0:57:44 ammunition you see now obviously you'd
0:57:46 come back and say no it's not really as
0:57:48 you think it is and you didn't mean it
0:57:49 like this and we try and argue a case
0:57:52 if you if you have things like Muslims
0:57:55 should support the right for gay
0:57:58 marriage and your explicit very clear
0:58:01 then I think that they can be that just
0:58:04 wish that can be that confusion in that
0:58:07 in the minds young people yeah look I
0:58:09 mean sorry chef I know I want to give
0:58:11 shadi a chance to talk so I'm gonna say
0:58:13 this and I'll let schastye talk which is
0:58:17 you know I think it's a I've talked to
0:58:22 people like advisors of Ilhan Omar about
0:58:26 this issue about number of issues that
0:58:28 have come up and I've expressed my I've
0:58:30 explained my concerns in in the years
0:58:34 since this article was published right
0:58:35 but as I said before I don't think I'm
0:58:39 not gonna do this kind of public
0:58:41 lambaste thing of her other Muslim
0:58:45 sister right yeah yeah so and I have
0:58:50 actually I have written about this stuff
0:58:52 on my facebook I've said explicitly for
0:58:57 essentially these things for example
0:58:58 like on the the on the masterpiece gate
0:59:02 cake case or the Asscher wedding cake
0:59:04 case in the UK I said the UK Supreme
0:59:06 Court was completely correct it was it
0:59:08 is definitely the right of the Baker not
0:59:10 to be forced to make a cake that it
0:59:13 forces the Baker to engage in expression
0:59:15 doesn't do it so I totally side with the
0:59:17 Baker on this right
0:59:18 I've explicitly talked about issues of
0:59:21 things like trans education in fruit for
0:59:24 young children things like the
0:59:26 Birmingham school issue where I said
0:59:28 children should not be exposed to this
0:59:30 kind of issue at that young age um so
0:59:33 I've actually come out a lot and talked
0:59:35 about these issues I haven't written a
0:59:37 yeah you clean article about it um and
0:59:40 to be honest that that's really more of
0:59:43 like a personal choice of mine I don't
0:59:46 want to get into I don't want to feel
0:59:48 comfortable getting into the details of
0:59:50 why I haven't done that but I have done
0:59:54 my best on my social media to weigh in
0:59:58 on those things because I think they are
1:00:00 very very important in fact they are
1:00:03 much more important than the Oberg
1:00:05 called to say
1:00:06 I mean I think and this is some of the
1:00:08 stuff I was sending you material on
1:00:10 stuff about what kids are taught in
1:00:12 school what rights parents have to opt
1:00:15 out of certain classes this is really
1:00:18 really really a thousand times more
1:00:20 important because it get when you talked
1:00:22 about you can't separate politics and
1:00:24 morality the the collision of those two
1:00:27 is in education especially early
1:00:29 childhood education yeah - I understand
1:00:33 that Charlie what would you add to that
1:00:35 maybe that that the article that was
1:00:39 initially wrote written by Jack is and I
1:00:42 thought until the day I arrived with
1:00:44 radical you Jack it was potentially
1:00:47 something which can cause confusion and
1:00:49 would you be at least for maybe a
1:00:53 complete reality of that essay yeah I
1:00:57 mean I would I mean if they want to
1:01:03 re-edit it it's up to them what to do
1:01:05 what to write and what's up to date and
1:01:07 what's not up to date but the rebuttal
1:01:09 the fact that they put the rebuttal is
1:01:11 you know that's also you know something
1:01:13 to be considered and when people are
1:01:15 going off on the internet and youth and
1:01:18 people reading I just want to keep it
1:01:20 just give people one point is that when
1:01:23 you look at a statement from an author
1:01:25 the right way to make an analysis is to
1:01:28 look at all the state authors of that
1:01:31 statements of that author on a
1:01:33 particular point right whether it be
1:01:36 yeah Gemma a Dilla and sometimes what I
1:01:39 see is going on is a little bit of
1:01:41 unfairness not necessarily just to judge
1:01:44 on and brown but because obviously I
1:01:47 wrote the I wrote a rebuttal on it so
1:01:49 that's my perspective on that line or
1:01:50 that point but to a lot of people one
1:01:54 line is taken one image one picture and
1:01:57 we have a saying either would you done
1:02:00 HTML right but Alissa blood if there is
1:02:04 a possibility that that picture does not
1:02:07 represent 100% and it could be explained
1:02:09 away then I can't make a conclusion so
1:02:11 likewise I look at a lot of people who's
1:02:13 a quote was taken from here here here
1:02:15 here three or four but five and seven
1:02:18 and eight and nine
1:02:19 of the complete you know opposite
1:02:21 conclusion quotes we're not taking and
1:02:24 to me this is nothing less than slander
1:02:27 in a sense it's it's an intellectual
1:02:29 version of slander where I would just
1:02:31 take that quote and ignore that evidence
1:02:34 right we did that in fact we we laugh
1:02:37 right if someone eats and Ramadan and
1:02:38 says well Allah says kun hua shabu eat
1:02:40 and drink Allah said it right Allah said
1:02:43 it but hold on a second he also said I I
1:02:46 do it I do agree there has been there
1:02:49 has been some quote mining and all these
1:02:51 kind of things especially dr. Brennan
1:02:53 and and I want to stress the fact that I
1:02:55 believe having a be honest having read
1:02:57 too many of your books but I've actually
1:03:01 read a lot of the articles at the brown
1:03:03 some of the books and seen some of the
1:03:05 work that he's done I mean this is not
1:03:08 to take away from any work we're just
1:03:10 having a conversation here about some of
1:03:12 the controversies that potentially
1:03:14 constitute the weakest link of the
1:03:16 portfolio of work that needs to be
1:03:18 readjusted and it's not about you know
1:03:22 anything else we want to promote
1:03:24 goodness and we want to promote as we do
1:03:26 if I said before I've referenced and and
1:03:29 continuously actually led people to some
1:03:31 of your your work it's not it might
1:03:35 sound like it's a deep crisis it was
1:03:37 definitely not that and we're not coming
1:03:38 from a point of trying to label or
1:03:40 cancel or anything like that I mean I
1:03:43 would say I would say this I mean I
1:03:45 don't I think that article it makes
1:03:47 funny people are still talking about it
1:03:49 as I said before because I think it's so
1:03:51 out of date I mean it's not the
1:03:54 situation that the the the Walker the
1:03:57 reality has changed so much since that
1:04:00 article that it's sort of a pointless
1:04:01 article to read now so what I would say
1:04:05 without a doubt is and I've been arguing
1:04:07 you know we've been discussing this game
1:04:08 for a while is we need to write a kind
1:04:11 of part two about this issue now because
1:04:14 we in the Muslim community are in a very
1:04:15 different situation I think one of the
1:04:18 reasons we haven't done it is because
1:04:19 this say James School case is such a big
1:04:22 deal I think when that case comes down I
1:04:26 think at that point it's gonna be a
1:04:29 really time to if you're going to get
1:04:31 involved in the discussion
1:04:32 which we did right if you're gonna get
1:04:34 involved the discussion you got a
1:04:35 follow-up right I think at that point
1:04:37 we're gonna have to write something to
1:04:40 address a lot of these issues and also
1:04:42 yeah yeah and I'd like to make the point
1:04:44 that when we're in a Jamaa as we are as
1:04:47 colleagues people in dawa people who are
1:04:49 concerns about the matter
1:04:50 it's actually being in touch with the
1:04:52 Gemara yes and if it's like this it
1:04:55 allows maybe if I had a slip-up or I
1:04:58 said a word that didn't work out but
1:05:01 being in the Jumeirah and this happened
1:05:02 to me recently right like I made a
1:05:04 statement that wasn't a hundred accurate
1:05:06 you know in a month of definition but
1:05:09 had I cut myself off number one I
1:05:12 wouldn't have had the benefit of being
1:05:14 shown that there was an error likewise
1:05:17 if somebody had when attacked me so
1:05:20 viciously and emotionally I would myself
1:05:23 not want to engage with anyone so
1:05:26 therefore I'll never be corrected so
1:05:27 there's two opposites there's the one
1:05:29 person who is arrogant who doesn't want
1:05:31 to be part of the group then there's
1:05:32 like the rabid attacks on people rather
1:05:37 than having a discussion and and how do
1:05:39 we know the difference right
1:05:41 you know the difference by someone's
1:05:42 track record someone has a track record
1:05:44 that pretty much they want to be part of
1:05:46 an asana and they want to do the right
1:05:48 thing and they want to reach the right
1:05:49 conclusion that person would if they
1:05:51 make a statement that I totally disagree
1:05:53 with they deserve they've earned the
1:05:55 right of you know decent interaction
1:05:57 maybe can you explain can we discuss
1:05:59 this a little bit more very different
1:06:01 we're much different than someone with
1:06:03 an a complete completely insane view who
1:06:07 has a track record of other insane views
1:06:09 and that point then yeah you could bash
1:06:10 him all you want to trash him and ignore
1:06:12 him because that he's proven himself
1:06:14 that that's what he wants so there's in
1:06:16 in our dialogue I think these points are
1:06:19 important to realize that if you go on
1:06:21 that attack you actually disallow that
1:06:24 person from ever reviewing his work
1:06:27 right and getting to the goal that you
1:06:30 want which is for them to see your
1:06:32 perspective so it's all about these
1:06:34 manners of it's enough to actually
1:06:36 arrive us at the conclusion that we want
1:06:38 to I wanted to ask one more question
1:06:41 that was probably as controversial
1:06:45 probably a little bit less controversial
1:06:46 it was to do with an article written
1:06:50 about salvation for my Muslims now I'll
1:06:52 be honest I read the entire article and
1:06:54 I made sure to read it more than once as
1:06:57 well I didn't see anything in that
1:06:59 article that says that you have the P
1:07:01 really pretty brainless view or anything
1:07:04 like that in that kind of view or the
1:07:06 view that all possibly to the same truth
1:07:09 or anything like that but then when I
1:07:10 did a bit more digging I came across a
1:07:12 part of the essay which was removed and
1:07:17 this is what it says it says to be clear
1:07:19 what follows here is just my idea
1:07:23 it does also seems possible that God
1:07:26 could forgive the sin of shook for a
1:07:28 reason other than repentance perhaps as
1:07:30 an expression of his immeasurable
1:07:31 message and this was subsequently
1:07:35 removed from the article someone would
1:07:37 argue then why why didn't you clarify
1:07:39 that this was removed and you know in a
1:07:43 sense make the correction public well I
1:07:49 mean I actually can't remember what my
1:07:51 argument for I Kamber what argument I
1:07:54 had for what I said I can't I mean
1:07:56 that's not the question you asked but
1:07:58 I'm actually trying to remember like
1:07:59 what of evidence I add for that I can't
1:08:02 I honestly can't remember but I assume I
1:08:05 had some decent ID you know some reason
1:08:07 I chose well I'm actually so this is a
1:08:11 great example of exactly what shad he's
1:08:13 just talking about so I wrote that
1:08:14 article yes and Moby invade for whom I
1:08:19 have great respect wrote a public
1:08:22 critique very very forceful serious but
1:08:27 extremely polite and and respectful you
1:08:31 know it's something that you couldn't
1:08:33 you you couldn't hold it against him
1:08:35 right you had to look at what he was
1:08:36 saying you had to say shoddy also talked
1:08:38 to me and and I took I took that part
1:08:43 and there was another part I took out as
1:08:45 well very small thing um you know why
1:08:49 didn't I make it why didn't we make it
1:08:52 public I can't remember or honestly I
1:08:53 can't remember if we did make it public
1:08:56 why was it there in the first place
1:08:57 thing what did you intend by that
1:08:59 meaning
1:08:59 and you removed so I went back and I
1:09:01 looked at the article right now and it
1:09:04 doesn't mention that it was changed but
1:09:06 actually this is something we've
1:09:07 discussed we've actually agreed upon a
1:09:09 theme that we're gonna like when there's
1:09:12 a change made to an article you know a
1:09:14 significant change not like you know
1:09:15 somebody added something in a foot when
1:09:17 such a made the article that we're just
1:09:19 gonna say this article has been updated
1:09:21 but I mean I honestly a camber like what
1:09:26 we did or didn't do in terms of noting
1:09:28 any change to that article when it came
1:09:30 out but I mean I would just say right
1:09:33 now like what I mean you know we we took
1:09:37 those two sections out those two
1:09:39 sentences out and that was it I mean I'm
1:09:42 not sure what critics would prefer would
1:09:44 they prefer that we have something at
1:09:47 the bottom that says what I originally
1:09:49 said so that somebody can get misled by
1:09:52 them I mean the whole the whole idea is
1:09:54 that you remove these because they're
1:09:55 confusing to people so the idea that you
1:09:58 would sort of like remove them and then
1:09:59 include them in some credibility the
1:10:01 only issue would be that if someone I'd
1:10:03 wrote it before I'm not seeing the
1:10:04 correction that they can have the same
1:10:06 question that you know that they've
1:10:08 already seen that you know I mean but
1:10:11 then I mean that would mean it we'd have
1:10:12 to have some kind of method of alerting
1:10:14 anybody who had read the article with
1:10:16 some kind of like pig that a change had
1:10:19 been made not just you know I mean so I
1:10:25 to be honest I think look I'm gonna tell
1:10:29 you what I think really this is about
1:10:31 right this is about people want me to
1:10:33 engage in some kind of like self
1:10:35 flagellation they want to like put me on
1:10:38 a donkey and parade me around town you
1:10:40 know do that tissue you they want to
1:10:43 like touch the inner of me and like look
1:10:45 I'm sorry I'm not gonna you know look
1:10:47 III I a hundred percent accept criticism
1:10:50 I accept criticism when it's done with
1:10:53 incredible a job and propriety like
1:10:55 people like dr. shoddy I accept
1:10:57 criticism when it's done by complete
1:10:59 a-holes okay if though if someone's a
1:11:02 it's a like a jerk no I mean if
1:11:07 someone's like a slanderous bloated jerk
1:11:09 and then they write something you know
1:11:12 dr. Brown
1:11:13 spelled this word wrong that's a good
1:11:16 point you know my Canon McCool inferred
1:11:19 Burhan hoofy philosophy Lamanna
1:11:23 ill Anarkali right so you know if
1:11:24 someone makes a point and that you you
1:11:27 made a point two plus two is not five I
1:11:29 got to change that doesn't matter if the
1:11:30 guy's nice or not so I'm happy to take
1:11:33 criticism wheat you've seen are very
1:11:34 happy to take criticism very happy to
1:11:37 take like why why didn't you like come
1:11:43 out in draw attention to the mistakes
1:11:45 you made in the article because the
1:11:48 whole point is not to draw attention of
1:11:50 the mistakes because the mistakes are
1:11:51 misleading okay that's the the issue of
1:11:56 that article um and by the way those
1:11:59 criticisms were made I mean within I'm
1:12:01 just gonna say like within days of when
1:12:03 your article came out five I remember
1:12:05 correctly and so the other question you
1:12:10 asked me about was the issue of
1:12:12 insulting the Prophet lays awesome yeah
1:12:15 I wanted to ask you about that I wanted
1:12:16 to ask you I just
1:12:19 that's fresh in my mind because some
1:12:21 genius just like brought this up to me
1:12:24 yesterday like he's like the first
1:12:27 person who brought this criticism to my
1:12:28 attention I was like oh thanks a lot man
1:12:30 like I didn't where I was like he been
1:12:31 in a coma for three months or something
1:12:33 four months when did this take place
1:12:35 when did you make your comments alia was
1:12:38 the end of January I was in the UK I was
1:12:41 in High Wycombe yes yes so yeah I and I
1:12:48 wrote about this so much online I said I
1:12:51 I really regret my choice of words
1:12:54 why shouldn't I regret my choice of
1:12:57 words I regret I and I a to boloss panel
1:13:00 with Allah
1:13:01 I needed the character similar to a loss
1:13:03 of the large that I may be the snooping
1:13:07 lie lie lie lie and bitter lately man la
1:13:12 who hadn't Mohamed Mahmoud right so I
1:13:16 have no problem admitting my error right
1:13:21 in the way I was talk I would if I had
1:13:24 gone back I would
1:13:25 we've used very different words I do
1:13:28 still take the same position right so
1:13:32 let me just be care I'm gonna explain
1:13:38 right so I regret the way I phrased it
1:13:41 or a to bow a lot of cups right yeah - I
1:13:46 do not want anybody to himself the
1:13:48 Prophet they said Salaam yeah and in a
1:13:49 Muslim society or in a Muslim country I
1:13:52 actually think it should be illegal to
1:13:53 insult the Prophet okay and by the way
1:13:56 in societies where they already have
1:14:00 strict hate speech laws or
1:14:02 anti-defamation laws or laws about
1:14:05 public order and incitement against
1:14:08 strife places like Singapore even
1:14:10 someplace like France I think that those
1:14:12 laws should be enforced equally and that
1:14:15 people should not be allowed to and so
1:14:16 something like Charlie Hebdo should not
1:14:19 have been allowed to have those cartoons
1:14:21 because Charlie Hebdo is not allowed to
1:14:23 have cartoons that for example have
1:14:24 anti-semitic or anti-jewish sentiment in
1:14:29 them right so I I think if you're gonna
1:14:31 have a law that says you can't insult
1:14:33 you can't cause communal hatred you
1:14:35 can't insult religious figures that
1:14:37 should be applied across the board and
1:14:38 it should not be allowed to insult the
1:14:40 Prophet whether it's the West or not the
1:14:42 West right but in societies like the
1:14:46 United States where you don't have hate
1:14:49 speech laws so there are no laws of
1:14:51 there are no laws against hate speech in
1:14:53 the United States as far as I know it's
1:14:55 certainly not at the federal level right
1:14:56 I do not think that Muslims should
1:14:59 advocate laws that restrict speech
1:15:02 because it's considered hateful or
1:15:04 restrict speech because it insults
1:15:05 figures were venerated because the first
1:15:09 people who will be restricted in their
1:15:12 speech because of that will be Muslims
1:15:14 and and yeah i and you've seen we saw
1:15:18 this in the UK go back and look at the
1:15:20 all the articles about the Trojan horse
1:15:21 issue right look at the what the Ofsted
1:15:24 reporters said not in their written
1:15:25 report but in their oral meant the world
1:15:28 discussions they mentioned how they went
1:15:30 into the library of one of these schools
1:15:32 and it was quote-unquote filled with
1:15:33 hate speech with hate literature what
1:15:35 was it filled with the Koran right so if
1:15:37 you believe and you can see
1:15:39 oddly enough in Muslim countries
1:15:41 countries like Indonesia countries like
1:15:43 Egypt right where they have this thing
1:15:45 now where you can't call someone who's
1:15:47 not Muslim a kafir because it caused
1:15:49 like imagine how are Muslims supposed to
1:15:52 talk about their religion or teach their
1:15:55 children their religion if basic things
1:15:57 in the Koran like criticisms of another
1:15:59 religious tradition criticism and other
1:16:01 religious beliefs
1:16:03 talling someone who's almost I'm a kafir
1:16:05 if you can't do that or the Koran itself
1:16:07 becomes an article of hate speech so if
1:16:10 by the way freedom of speech laws or
1:16:13 hate speech laws are never used to
1:16:15 protect my to protect vulnerable
1:16:16 minorities like Muslims they're used to
1:16:18 protect the powerful when minorities get
1:16:22 out of line
1:16:23 yeah I see same but I think this would
1:16:26 become problematic if you phrased it I'm
1:16:28 not saying you I mean obviously you've
1:16:29 recanted well you've said or if you
1:16:31 phrased it in a way which is like I
1:16:33 support the the right for you know a
1:16:39 person to insult the Prophet know well
1:16:42 well I see this as he being the exact
1:16:44 same thing yeah yeah you're supporting
1:16:48 or you're supporting the idea longer
1:16:54 engage in because the whole from why
1:16:59 understood from Browns argument with the
1:17:01 gay speech at the gay marriage one is
1:17:03 that he doesn't think that gay marriage
1:17:05 has any place in the Sharia like it's a
1:17:08 non-factor from that perspective
1:17:10 gay marriage is just it's nothing it
1:17:12 doesn't exist it have no shot placement
1:17:16 whereas with this said burnaby even if
1:17:19 it's been done or which is vegan even if
1:17:23 it's been done to someone who is not
1:17:25 Muslim there's clear Sharia guidelines
1:17:28 on the kind of at least attitude that we
1:17:32 should have to those people so it would
1:17:34 be very I think will send the wrong
1:17:36 message if you say well I you know I
1:17:39 support people in this phraseology I
1:17:41 support the right for someone to insult
1:17:44 the Prophet Mohammed I that phraseology
1:17:46 is extremely emotion you with endorse
1:17:48 that phraseology but technically based
1:17:51 on the was only put in place
1:17:53 that statement wouldn't be bothered that
1:17:54 same it wouldn't be disagreeable to the
1:17:57 'soul you for in place but I think that
1:17:59 you can no no I think it would I mean
1:18:01 both whether it's whether it's the watt
1:18:04 or Sabha nebby little things are haram
1:18:07 yeah I didn't stuff you if you had if
1:18:11 you had a Muslim government like a
1:18:12 Muslim state right oh they want to be
1:18:15 Haram and southern it would be Haram
1:18:17 they'd be both illegal right if you
1:18:19 diddly wat you could be taken to court
1:18:21 and if you did something W could be
1:18:22 taken to court right whether you're a
1:18:24 Muslim or non-muslim so I I think that
1:18:28 they're there I don't I don't see a lot
1:18:31 of difference between them and they kind
1:18:33 of from the Sharia perspective III think
1:18:36 that there is a similarity that Georgia
1:18:39 is bringing up which is that it's it's
1:18:43 looking at how the Muslims thrive and
1:18:47 function in a society in which they are
1:18:49 a vulnerable minority right so that's
1:18:51 why I I mean I think that it's it's my I
1:18:56 mean for example there's we talked about
1:18:59 this before like you know there's
1:19:00 there's a lot of people in the United
1:19:02 States who want to who essentially want
1:19:05 to make having Muslim beliefs illegal
1:19:07 right and you don't I don't want to give
1:19:11 the government any power to make that
1:19:15 happen by giving the government power to
1:19:18 restrict speech to restrict belief right
1:19:21 so that's why I I don't I don't believe
1:19:24 in laws that restrict hate speech so
1:19:29 basically what you're saying is that you
1:19:30 you want the government to stop
1:19:32 legislating matters and become more soft
1:19:35 of a take a soft liberalist approach
1:19:38 because we'd be able to breathe - that's
1:19:42 really that's what I don't know what
1:19:43 you're saying okay I kind of get this
1:19:45 now but what I would like to put and put
1:19:47 forward submit to you guys today's I
1:19:50 think you make it very it that's the
1:19:53 position you're taking I understand it
1:19:54 there's two things I would would want to
1:19:56 suggest and I don't know what you think
1:19:58 of these recommendations yeah
1:20:01 recommendation number one if one
1:20:03 believes that they should be like more
1:20:04 of the
1:20:06 Tirion approach in terms of government
1:20:07 intervention social matters relating for
1:20:12 example to marriage divorce to religion
1:20:16 to morali etc and faster stance then I
1:20:20 would stop there
1:20:22 like yeah instantly in the sense that I
1:20:24 wouldn't build upon NSA so therefore I
1:20:27 support the right of X first gay person
1:20:30 to get married on the US law or that I
1:20:33 support the right of a person to insult
1:20:36 the Prophet and Hamid accessory ever
1:20:38 because that secondary aspect is where
1:20:42 the sugar can come in I believe the
1:20:44 sugar can come in I really can it really
1:20:46 really can and people can really confuse
1:20:48 your statement which you're building
1:20:50 upon different muscle yeah we should now
1:20:53 understand what they can really really
1:20:54 understand that as this person has
1:20:56 capitulated to Western narratives and is
1:21:00 bending over backwards to try and please
1:21:01 those individuals a secondary thing I
1:21:03 would want to recommend is I think
1:21:06 that's the big difference is saying this
1:21:08 would be better for the Muslims yeah in
1:21:10 in the sense that it would be better for
1:21:11 Muslim minority kaalia in a Muslim black
1:21:14 for such low to be in place instead of X
1:21:18 law instead of wine law so it's better
1:21:20 it's young it's less of an evil a half a
1:21:24 dollar reign for example the lesser of
1:21:25 two evils to make that very clear and to
1:21:28 use that language it's the lesser of two
1:21:29 evils for this thought to be in place
1:21:31 but then this law then to say this is
1:21:36 what I believe should the law should be
1:21:38 this as if this is the UH Salaam the
1:21:40 utopian kind of consideration that this
1:21:44 is what we want the roads because for us
1:21:45 the utopian things obviously Mike Oliver
1:21:48 loves Thailand so I think two things if
1:21:52 they're made very clear because I
1:21:55 understand dr. brand no I understand
1:21:57 what you're trying to say yeah I
1:21:58 understand how you built your own but if
1:22:00 you package it in that way say look I'm
1:22:03 not advocating that these doors are the
1:22:04 best laws I'm saying there's a lesser of
1:22:06 two evils it's better for the Muslim
1:22:08 community I'm not and support for anyone
1:22:10 they saw them the Prophet wants for this
1:22:12 and that it makes your position while
1:22:13 they did the very clear that it's almost
1:22:16 impossible for it to be attacked
1:22:19 unless you're gonna get some mo total
1:22:20 ravine or people from the you know
1:22:23 fringes attacking it but for now angle
1:22:26 you're firmly within the prism we are
1:22:28 firmly within the paradigm you don't
1:22:30 need to come out of the paradigm or
1:22:31 become a liberal or to any to write full
1:22:34 terms and to I think if you do that then
1:22:38 Hollis you've kind of cleaned it all up
1:22:40 you've mopped it all up
1:22:41 what would you would you guys think of
1:22:43 this and let me add something else to if
1:22:46 you put forth the libertarian view as
1:22:48 the Herford Notre Dame the lesser of two
1:22:51 evils
1:22:52 you can only be attacked on one ass on
1:22:56 one side which we can close that attack
1:22:58 and that attack would be someone saying
1:23:00 well you're opening the door to XYZ
1:23:04 horrible things also being said right
1:23:06 but you're you would close the door by
1:23:09 saying that's a Lundy that's possible to
1:23:11 happen what's guaranteed to happen is
1:23:13 that Muslims will have their right to do
1:23:15 their to worship their properly or
1:23:17 worship as they see fit
1:23:18 so that's guaranteed and the guaranteed
1:23:21 matter you know will take precedent and
1:23:24 is heavier than the possibility because
1:23:26 if you say government do not talk about
1:23:28 any speech do not been any books
1:23:30 Uncle Sam don't make to Sharia and don't
1:23:32 get involved right so yeah that means we
1:23:36 can write all we can have our Quran and
1:23:37 write all our books you think yeah and
1:23:39 and and someone say yeah but that also
1:23:42 allows for people to curse the prophets
1:23:44 of a sudden we're saying we're against
1:23:46 that but that's a Bundy that's maybe and
1:23:49 what's certain is that by this we
1:23:51 guarantee our right to to practice
1:23:54 already so that's just an argument the
1:23:55 great thing is it's very kicks in the
1:23:57 names it's like a list of two evils
1:23:59 right well there will be but what the
1:24:01 ratio thing is that is is there's not
1:24:03 two options there's the opt-out option
1:24:05 there's the rejection is that you've
1:24:07 mentioned it like four or five options
1:24:10 so it would it would be difficult to
1:24:12 make her less of two evils argument the
1:24:14 ratio thing but I think that with this
1:24:17 situation where you're talking about
1:24:18 generally speaking about laws which
1:24:20 don't infringe would you rather have
1:24:22 laws that do in French and they were
1:24:24 infringed Muslim right would you rather
1:24:26 have we'll just do infringe don't
1:24:28 infringe and then Muslims will be more
1:24:30 protected term divided by that and etc
1:24:32 yeah I think that initial initial
1:24:34 framework if you lay it out like that
1:24:36 then yeah very easy for someone to
1:24:38 follow will you say okay I understand
1:24:39 what ya which most of it yeah which is
1:24:43 why in a sullen fit I was taught early
1:24:46 on and or solid v they actually tend to
1:24:49 like to give outlandish examples just so
1:24:52 that you don't get bogged down in a
1:24:54 specific example and what happened with
1:24:56 this we you know what Jack was saying is
1:24:59 that I think because the example was a
1:25:02 real thing that's happening right now
1:25:04 like gay marriage or something to be
1:25:05 everyone I attention went to that
1:25:08 example yes yes yes yes yes yeah and I
1:25:12 think if so could we agree them in terms
1:25:15 of course obviously what we're trying to
1:25:17 do is in the sense we're trying to make
1:25:20 everything clear for the people I'm not
1:25:23 here to try and you guys masha'Allah
1:25:24 both of you a senior to me in every
1:25:26 single way I'm just giving you my
1:25:27 feedback from that from the lathe from
1:25:29 the ground from from well I genuinely
1:25:32 fear there is because I've had a lot of
1:25:34 these engagements with young people
1:25:36 especially because my demographic if my
1:25:37 18 to 35 there can be confusion yeah
1:25:41 forget about what the letter of like
1:25:43 we're not literalists in that sense that
1:25:45 you know they're exactly what he said
1:25:47 and if the world is there it can be
1:25:49 construed in certain can we on this
1:25:54 topic here on these kind of topics I've
1:25:56 just talked about
1:25:56 can we tighten up in terms of making the
1:25:58 position very clear can we is can we do
1:26:01 it re-edit over a rethinking or you said
1:26:04 that you're going to move more to share
1:26:06 these kind of perspective on things can
1:26:09 we reflect that in the writings about
1:26:10 the brand you think that's something
1:26:12 could based on the feedback that we've
1:26:14 been getting from from the ground for
1:26:15 people that are just observers and being
1:26:19 confused by some of those words or using
1:26:20 it as ammunition to do certain things
1:26:24 which aren't Islamic or even make
1:26:25 arguments China Sarah okay would be a
1:26:28 good idea I mean I mean I I think that
1:26:30 on the second thing that insulting the
1:26:32 Prophet is that Salaam I mean definitely
1:26:35 getting feedback on that was like you
1:26:39 know it gave me a chance to correct what
1:26:42 I you know correct myself
1:26:44 but you know I also want to make you
1:26:47 feel like I didn't write some article
1:26:49 where I laid out this argument for why I
1:26:52 wanted to say it's okay to insult like
1:26:54 you know what this was yeah yeah that
1:26:56 was literally I think that was like 8
1:26:57 p.m. on a day where I had gone
1:27:01 you gonna talk in Birmingham to talks in
1:27:05 Birmingham a talk in Hawks High Wycombe
1:27:08 I mean I literally it was like six hours
1:27:11 of talks it was like the end of six
1:27:14 hours of talks right I know what you
1:27:15 mean and the Q&A right and and so I mean
1:27:19 I don't
1:27:19 I obviously haven't told you my position
1:27:23 on what I said right but I mean yeah
1:27:25 it's not like I wrote some essay where I
1:27:26 drew attention to this in fact I would
1:27:29 actually say that if someone wanted to
1:27:31 criticize me they should have contacted
1:27:33 me personally and said hey man I just
1:27:34 saw this what do you think instead just
1:27:38 some of these people wrote like sort of
1:27:39 tweeting about this and being look at
1:27:41 horrible Jonathan Brown is which I
1:27:43 actually considered he pretty low you
1:27:45 know if you really care about me if you
1:27:46 really care about honoring the Prophet
1:27:48 then then tell me about it and I would
1:27:51 have immediately had them take that out
1:27:53 of the video right but instead no that's
1:27:55 not how people do they want to go and
1:27:57 get their pound of flesh and and insult
1:27:59 their brother and stuff like that so um
1:28:01 I would say about the thing about the
1:28:05 LGBT issue I think that what we
1:28:07 definitely should do you're clean is to
1:28:08 write another because this thing needs
1:28:11 to be discussed again because the
1:28:12 reality has changed so much yeah and the
1:28:16 issues have changed right so gay
1:28:17 marriage is not an issue anymore there's
1:28:20 a lot more issues around education in
1:28:23 schools notions of what gender is what
1:28:26 sexuality is you know issues around
1:28:28 trans rights it was very much more
1:28:30 oppressing and I think that needs to be
1:28:32 written about your view on this
1:28:34 transgender twitter's oh yeah I think
1:28:39 it's so funny people get so excited I
1:28:41 don't understand who got so upset about
1:28:42 this so like when you know might know my
1:28:45 gym you know we are general neighborhood
1:28:46 which I'm been to for god knows how long
1:28:48 because it scored 19 thing but you know
1:28:51 you go in there and it's like one room
1:28:52 and there's like a bunch of old dudes
1:28:53 showering you know totally naked when I
1:28:57 was in boarding school
1:28:58 I spent four years showering with like
1:29:01 20 other guys in one big room playing so
1:29:04 cocky and trying out to get peed on
1:29:06 that was what we spent four years doing
1:29:08 right yeah um I well I don't want that
1:29:13 for my kids right I don't want I have to
1:29:15 take my kids to this bathroom when I go
1:29:16 to the gym my signal swimming lessons I
1:29:18 have to go be like you know don't don't
1:29:21 look oh my god can I say something it's
1:29:25 really funny actually I think this is
1:29:28 okay like there's there's this guy
1:29:30 there's all these naked old guys in
1:29:32 there right so I'm like going to my like
1:29:34 kind of like guys can't don't look at
1:29:35 this stuff right so this one guy
1:29:38 standing there and my kid thank God I
1:29:40 thought the miss speak Arabic because
1:29:42 he's like 'they're Dajjal hadn't done
1:29:46 dukeman do sting dual man do still do I
1:29:49 said like nah that's like so scared if
1:29:55 he said that in English oh go ahead have
1:29:57 been the end of the world right I don't
1:29:59 know if you want to edit that out or not
1:30:00 but it was pretty point is my point is
1:30:03 like this is what I don't want to happen
1:30:05 what do I want it's very simple you go
1:30:07 to a bathroom there's a door open the
1:30:10 door there's a shower there's a toilet
1:30:12 or if you're not in a gym there's a
1:30:14 toilet right you go to the door no no
1:30:16 this like space under the bathroom and
1:30:18 of this you can see through the cracks
1:30:23 no what are you talking about no I don't
1:30:29 want anybody to be in the same toilet
1:30:31 with anybody else okay so you imagine
1:30:35 this you know in English in you guys a
1:30:38 water closet
1:30:38 I want a water closet right you go in
1:30:41 there's a closet you go in there's a
1:30:43 toilet and no one else is in there
1:30:44 that's what I want and I didn't even
1:30:51 look a to be honest I just someone sent
1:30:53 me because I don't know because people
1:30:55 are crazy I'm not sure what they're they
1:30:57 think but they somehow they think that I
1:31:00 want like men and women you know going
1:31:03 to the bathroom or next to each other
1:31:04 something that's not what I'm saying if
1:31:06 you you have a sink a bathroom it's not
1:31:08 even a stall like it's a door I don't
1:31:10 you've seen this in I don't if you've
1:31:12 seen this in like your
1:31:12 universities and stuff or buildings
1:31:14 right so there's like in a lot sneezes
1:31:16 like a men's room now and there's a
1:31:18 women's room which has multiple toilets
1:31:20 in them and then there was like a any of
1:31:22 us like gender-neutral bathroom which is
1:31:24 just one it's like just one toilet it's
1:31:27 only one place for one person you're
1:31:29 saying yeah that's what I want is
1:31:30 everything is just a bunch of one-person
1:31:32 toilets none of this like multiple
1:31:33 toilets what's that to you why does it
1:31:35 have to be gender specific like what you
1:31:37 know what's the agenda discussion about
1:31:40 this because that's the same thing that
1:31:42 a lot of trans advocates want well they
1:31:46 just want that not mean they don't just
1:31:48 want that right but they want that's it
1:31:50 in terms of bathrooms a lot of trans
1:31:52 advocates want to have bathrooms that
1:31:54 are just like gender-neutral single-use
1:31:57 single stall oh my god
1:32:05 this is Adobe it'll be a nightmare I
1:32:06 wouldn't ever use I mean who I don't
1:32:10 know anybody who wants that even women
1:32:11 like even women get upset about this
1:32:13 they're like you know you you can't go
1:32:14 in and like women dick you know let me
1:32:16 go to the bathrooms they put a makeup on
1:32:18 it's like a safe space they talk like a
1:32:21 disabled toilet what you're saying yes
1:32:23 exactly exactly and I love I go to those
1:32:26 all the time you can make will do in it
1:32:27 no one's gonna bother ya the sink is
1:32:31 usually quite low isn't it
1:32:32 it was not a problem for me maybe for
1:32:34 you yeah yeah I've seen some of your
1:32:41 videos with that uh you're like a black
1:32:44 belt in Egyptian kung-fu aren't you
1:32:51 coaches to do that what's the most
1:32:54 libertarian government out there I think
1:32:56 it's South Africa right yeah it's gonna
1:33:00 be South Africa and if that's the case
1:33:01 and we should see that you know there's
1:33:04 a lot of stuff gonna thrive in South
1:33:06 Africa where we're fighting these fights
1:33:07 against really like an increasing
1:33:09 cultural fascism right yeah and what
1:33:12 it's doing is it's hardening it's also
1:33:14 hardening the Muslims right and when
1:33:17 they're hardening whether we realize it
1:33:19 or not they're actually taking a lot of
1:33:21 it out on their own kind um people were
1:33:24 actually on their side who may have made
1:33:25 an expression
1:33:26 statement that they didn't really that
1:33:29 wasn't exactly perfect or according to
1:33:31 them perfect or whatever we have this
1:33:33 culture of making Muslims Ellison dot
1:33:38 really uncomfortable with their own kind
1:33:40 is a big problem the batter we always
1:33:42 say never scare your kids because your
1:33:45 kids will then seek happiness outside of
1:33:47 the home right you'll seek security and
1:33:50 fulfillment outside of the home so they
1:33:52 said always when you discipline your
1:33:54 kids keep that in mind
1:33:56 likewise when we have people doing
1:33:57 commanding right forbidding wrong and
1:33:59 trying to get to the right you know
1:34:01 result in conclusion of things if they
1:34:03 do this in a way that disgusts and
1:34:06 injures in fact other dads who are
1:34:09 venison as well trying to do the same
1:34:11 thing right then what they're gonna do
1:34:13 is people are gonna click off they're
1:34:16 not gonna go online anymore and many
1:34:18 people will not benefit from them
1:34:19 whereas had they had a moderate of
1:34:21 discussion with them then the point
1:34:25 would have been corrected and the people
1:34:26 who still benefit right so there's
1:34:28 everyone benefits but what's going on
1:34:30 now is I don't know what it is people
1:34:32 pent up frustration with kovat 19 why is
1:34:35 it that Twitter I this is what I see I
1:34:37 don't know for you you tell me it's been
1:34:39 taken over by dislike kharijite
1:34:42 attitudes if you have one mistake one
1:34:46 thing we're gonna meme you to death
1:34:48 we're gonna attack you happy people have
1:34:50 no name myself but you notice I think is
1:34:59 good for my class like it's really good
1:35:01 because when you just consistently
1:35:02 praise praise praise praise if that's
1:35:05 the worst thing for your like
1:35:07 psycho-spiritual state like sometimes
1:35:09 you just need to get it sprayed yeah but
1:35:12 but would you do that to somebody else's
1:35:15 MN do Mac people those those guys those
1:35:19 rodents out there those flies yeah these
1:35:22 the they have a function and the
1:35:24 function is to keep us we could see yeah
1:35:26 these these cockroaches that's their
1:35:29 they're like sort of cockroaches and
1:35:30 rats and hyenas really hyenas yes they
1:35:33 like to attack someone at the moment
1:35:36 that they're down and laugh at it in a
1:35:38 while we don't even know his name he's
1:35:39 like
1:35:40 ever something or some silly name or
1:35:43 whatever their box no almost I think
1:35:48 that we really it's hard to direct it
1:35:50 because we're directing it at a general
1:35:52 audience but this culture to me is
1:35:54 disgusting and it's always like yeah why
1:35:57 am i part of this you know it's actually
1:35:59 true and what I wanted to ask you guys
1:36:01 is or maybe as a general advice now
1:36:04 because you guys have spoken about some
1:36:05 of the controversies people I'm sure
1:36:07 follow some of you guys's work and I've
1:36:10 read some of your stuff and certainly
1:36:12 has been effective I mean to be because
1:36:15 we've spoken all the controversies like
1:36:17 some of the stuff that historical
1:36:19 analysis done from brown on slavery as I
1:36:21 believe genuinely saved some people's in
1:36:24 mana I genuinely believe that and surely
1:36:27 master day I haven't been so as familiar
1:36:28 with your work but took quite recently
1:36:30 but once again I'm very sure that people
1:36:33 have benefited from that and canals from
1:36:34 you guys now for people that are
1:36:37 suffering from doubts I mean this is
1:36:38 something you clean the Institute has
1:36:40 focused on quite a lot their doubts and
1:36:43 trying to rectify them what kind of
1:36:46 things would you recommend this either
1:36:48 actions or readings or four people that
1:36:52 Muslims are growing up and a little bit
1:36:54 confused with these topics of
1:36:56 controversy within a stem like slavery
1:36:58 like you know I don't know dude what you
1:37:01 wrote written about apostasy all these
1:37:05 things what kind of general advice would
1:37:08 you give a closing advice would you give
1:37:11 to people in regards to dealing with
1:37:13 their doubt and tackling some of these
1:37:15 intellectual challenges let's start of
1:37:17 Shadia shouting all right so I would say
1:37:20 look yeah you don't look at the
1:37:22 specifics look at the source and ask
1:37:25 yourself do you trust in this source and
1:37:28 if your answer is i 100% believe in a
1:37:35 Lana's messenger and that their words
1:37:38 have been protected and you know the
1:37:42 understanding of Islam and the Sharia on
1:37:44 the mainstream Sharia is what they
1:37:46 intended okay so there's two parts to it
1:37:48 and I trust Anna Lana's messenger
1:37:52 and I know that they are there they have
1:37:53 more knowledge than any of us are gonna
1:37:55 have they have more wisdom they have
1:37:58 more mercy and they're seeking benefit
1:38:00 for Humanity okay more than I will ever
1:38:03 want those things or possess those
1:38:05 qualities that's foundation is there
1:38:09 stabilized then it's a matter of just
1:38:13 remembering that whenever one of their
1:38:15 rulings does not sit with my head and I
1:38:18 just have to remember who will lo yeah I
1:38:21 don't want too much animal that's how
1:38:22 she put it
1:38:23 I'm not color I might not be comfortable
1:38:25 with a specific matter
1:38:27 then I should accuse myself because I've
1:38:30 already entrusted I've already trusted
1:38:32 the foundation and so I should remember
1:38:35 that it's me who myself who may not
1:38:37 understand may yes temporarily feel a
1:38:40 hardship okay and maybe I've maybe I've
1:38:44 misunderstood their ruling to begin with
1:38:47 as well so I have to look at who am i
1:38:49 learning from because I may have been
1:38:51 learning from someone who's not clear so
1:38:53 these are the points that any time that
1:38:55 this happens we should go to these
1:38:56 simple points of remember who you trust
1:38:59 make sure you've understood their words
1:39:01 properly because maybe you have
1:39:02 misunderstood number two and number
1:39:04 three remember to accuse yourself if you
1:39:08 truly understood and I still feeling
1:39:11 something why am I feeling something who
1:39:12 am i right
1:39:13 look at me and look at the universe
1:39:15 Allah created this universe right so if
1:39:18 you just go back to the source lies that
1:39:21 and also just study with the right
1:39:23 sources is the right sources of
1:39:24 Education may clarify what you have
1:39:27 misunderstood about the revelation I
1:39:33 mean I would say you know I would say I
1:39:36 would start by a second which daddy said
1:39:38 in the second part which is you know you
1:39:39 have to find people who you respect
1:39:41 people who are good teachers and you
1:39:46 have to find more than one right so like
1:39:47 you know there's off you hear people say
1:39:49 like master bedroom in shade come in
1:39:51 Catherine Messiah for it so like you you
1:39:53 you have it's if you you have this is
1:39:57 this is it's tough man it's really tough
1:39:59 for Muslims in the West I mean I think
1:40:02 it's probably true for Muslims in them
1:40:04 well similar to but it's really
1:40:05 really really tough because it's really
1:40:07 hard to find good teachers it's hard to
1:40:10 find people who can who know the
1:40:11 tradition really well will understand
1:40:13 the reality around them really well and
1:40:15 then who understand how to put the two
1:40:16 together that is very very rare but
1:40:20 between online lectures between people
1:40:23 you know in your community between books
1:40:25 I think there's resources out there
1:40:26 you're clean tries to be that type of
1:40:28 resource shoddy Safina society tries to
1:40:31 be that could resource daddys teaching
1:40:32 is one of those resources JD's books
1:40:34 he's written a book on Toki that I have
1:40:36 on al-qaeda which is very good maybe you
1:40:40 can do classes like that online shadow
1:40:42 know if you already have that we got a
1:40:43 visa put those out for people right um
1:40:46 so finding people that you trust and but
1:40:50 also realize that those are people right
1:40:52 so that's why I think you have to have
1:40:53 more than one and then we've seen a lot
1:40:55 of this unfortunately last couple of
1:40:56 years right somebody puts they're all
1:40:58 there like for them Islam becomes tied
1:41:01 to this one do I doubt yeah this one
1:41:03 shake and that person has some kind of
1:41:05 problem and then that person that that
1:41:07 Muslims a man is crushed they don't know
1:41:09 what to do you don't remember these or
1:41:12 they're not our people scholars our
1:41:14 people leaders or people they have their
1:41:16 own problems there are there they have
1:41:18 imperfections right and especially they
1:41:20 face the temptations when you become a
1:41:22 public personality you're faced with
1:41:24 temptations that you never imagined
1:41:26 having before that right ok so that's
1:41:32 the first thing the second thing I'd say
1:41:33 is and this is this is really what I've
1:41:35 tried to hit over and over and over
1:41:38 again in my writings and my lectures
1:41:41 just have some humility our world the
1:41:46 modern world is a world of immense
1:41:48 arrogance in which whatever the latest
1:41:52 thing is it's correct it's the best
1:41:54 everything else before that was wrong
1:41:56 and that is not we are human beings we
1:41:59 are specie or an animal we are a
1:42:01 rational animal we belong to a tradition
1:42:04 that has been around for thousands of
1:42:06 years it has received the wisdom of God
1:42:08 for thousands of years right that has
1:42:11 been raising kids and eating food and
1:42:15 making bread and drinking milk for
1:42:17 thousands of years
1:42:19 the idea that somehow we're gonna come
1:42:21 around and come up with some totally new
1:42:23 vision about how we're gonna think about
1:42:24 reality and our species and our bodies
1:42:27 and everything and somehow that we're
1:42:29 gonna go and prescribe this for
1:42:30 everybody else when we literally don't
1:42:32 even know it's really I mean look you
1:42:35 know my parents and your you know
1:42:38 Shaggy's parents you're they were like
1:42:40 the hippie you know the sixties and
1:42:42 seventies generation we don't even have
1:42:44 one full generation of people who lived
1:42:46 through the sexual revolution let alone
1:42:48 seeing what that does their kids let
1:42:50 alone see what that what recent
1:42:51 developments have done to families and
1:42:54 to society and to go and say that not
1:42:56 only does everybody in the world have to
1:42:58 live this way but if you don't view the
1:43:00 world this way that you're some kind of
1:43:01 monster that is the pinnacle of
1:43:04 arrogance and it's not just arrogant
1:43:06 it's it's highly unwise I mean would you
1:43:08 go and and take a medicine and say
1:43:10 without even seeing its effect on
1:43:12 someone's body over the long term but
1:43:14 when prescribed us for everyone else in
1:43:15 the world and tell everyone else in the
1:43:17 world that they are a horrible person if
1:43:18 they don't take this medicine or accept
1:43:19 it
1:43:20 this is extremely unwise it's unwise for
1:43:22 us as a species to make these kind of to
1:43:24 have this arrogance about the modern
1:43:26 period about the present so that's what
1:43:28 I try over and over again is is if you
1:43:30 really study the past you realize how
1:43:34 giant and enormous and wide human
1:43:37 experiences and you stop being what
1:43:40 makes us alone and what makes us afraid
1:43:42 is when we look at our religion and we
1:43:44 look at our beliefs that were taught and
1:43:45 we put them against these these present
1:43:47 standards that are given to us that are
1:43:48 did reign over us all around us we feel
1:43:51 terrible when you look into the past you
1:43:53 realize that this is a long story we're
1:43:56 not alone there's huge variety in our
1:43:59 species and in our experience in our
1:44:01 history and that becomes something is
1:44:02 comforting that's why when I wrote this
1:44:04 book on slavery that's like I wanted to
1:44:06 understand for myself how do i morally
1:44:09 make sense of this like I'm not some
1:44:11 kind of monster like I say it disgusts
1:44:14 me how do I make sense of this as a
1:44:17 Muslim that's what I wanted to do and
1:44:19 what the conclusion I came to which
1:44:21 really helped me and I hope help other
1:44:22 people is like it once you realize it
1:44:24 you know in the grand scheme of human
1:44:26 history these moral certainties are
1:44:28 simply not moral certainties
1:44:31 that is a very liberating very
1:44:33 liberating thing and I think that
1:44:35 humility it gives you peace it makes you
1:44:38 a more productive helpful member of
1:44:40 society
1:44:41 remember society to understand that
1:44:43 other people might have different views
1:44:44 than you that you still have to live
1:44:46 together and deal with one another which
1:44:47 is by the way something that people in
1:44:49 our society in the UK in Britain are
1:44:50 increasingly not willing to do right
1:44:52 okay those are my those are my two
1:44:54 things my two pieces of advice Allah
1:44:57 bless you both has been a pleasant very
1:44:59 pleasant and action-packed podcast and
1:45:03 obviously guys are welcome anytime to
1:45:05 join me again on this podcast thank you
1:45:08 very much man
1:45:09 excellent salam ala rasoolillah castle