LIBERALISM'S UNSOVABLE PROBLEMS Dr Graham Oppy vs Abdullah al Andalusi (2021-10-29) ​

0:00:00 to learn more about how to critically
0:00:02 engage and understand western political
0:00:04 philosophy and its attendant political
0:00:06 and ethical systems courses are
0:00:08 available by the quran institute which
0:00:10 can be accessed via the link i would say
0:00:13 that islam actually manages plurality
0:00:15 better than liberalism but those who
0:00:16 don't believe in the islamic purpose of
0:00:18 life islamic law while it might underpin
0:00:21 the security of the lands and the state
0:00:23 and hence will prevent robbers and
0:00:25 invading armies and things like that um
0:00:28 it's not there to make jews christians
0:00:30 and zosterians and others and better
0:00:32 muslims because they're not muslims so
0:00:34 in islam christians and jews could
0:00:36 actually have their own law courts their
0:00:38 own law courts their own in some cases
0:00:40 even their own um
0:00:42 police and semi-autonomous areas no one
0:00:44 was telling them that they're against
0:00:45 the they are not following the values of
0:00:47 the state or they're not integrating um
0:00:50 or assimilating into the into the wider
0:00:52 society there was no such challenges in
0:00:55 liberal societies however
0:00:57 the idea of a one law for all sounds
0:01:00 very laudable at first but when you
0:01:03 actually think about how you apply this
0:01:05 you're basically saying that one law
0:01:07 might be determined by the majority
0:01:09 let's say or at least representatives of
0:01:11 the majority
0:01:12 will basically
0:01:14 impose one particular law system on
0:01:16 everyone including the minorities that
0:01:18 might disagree with those with the law
0:01:20 system and basically that that can
0:01:23 involve a form of intolerance where
0:01:25 communities are told that you can't do
0:01:27 these certain practices with because it
0:01:29 it doesn't conform with the law of this
0:01:31 country or you're not allowed to have
0:01:32 your own law system because that is
0:01:34 interrogation of the of this one law for
0:01:36 all what you find is that muslims and
0:01:38 historically jews but as sometimes also
0:01:41 catholics their their own law systems
0:01:43 were viewed as active threats to the
0:01:44 state right now it's muslims muslims a
0:01:47 practice of just even voluntary uh
0:01:50 islamic law courts or more like
0:01:52 tribunals they're not really islamic
0:01:53 they're not courts really but they're
0:01:54 just tribunals um
0:01:56 are viewed as a threat to the state and
0:01:58 the state now state must clamp down upon
0:02:00 these or regulate it or or get involved
0:02:02 in their religious life and affairs
0:02:04 because it is viewed as a as a threat so
0:02:07 those are the issues that liberalism has
0:02:09 a problem with tolerance of multiple
0:02:11 ways of life other than its own
0:02:14 i'd say in practice whereas islam
0:02:16 actually allows
0:02:17 separate law systems
0:02:19 for jews and christians and others to
0:02:21 practice their own laws amongst
0:02:23 themselves islam kind of offers more
0:02:26 tolerance
0:02:27 than liberalism only because islam
0:02:28 doesn't view itself it can't view itself
0:02:30 as imposing itself on everybody because
0:02:33 the purpose in life is to voluntarily
0:02:34 choose the to worship the creator to
0:02:36 recognize his existence and to um follow
0:02:39 his commands and must be done
0:02:41 voluntarily it can't be done by
0:02:43 imposition whereas liberalism believes
0:02:45 that liberalism itself is universal
0:02:48 justice for mankind and so if it's
0:02:50 universal justice for mankind then every
0:02:52 human on this earth has a right
0:02:54 to liberalism whether they like it or
0:02:56 not
0:02:57 and so it means that there can only be
0:02:59 one law for all in every liberal state
0:03:02 but it can also mean that liberal states
0:03:04 can exercise uh colonialism as it's
0:03:07 called to export its its ideology to the
0:03:09 world because it believes that every
0:03:11 human being has a right to what it calls
0:03:13 with its own definition of human rights
0:03:15 irrespective of whether those people
0:03:17 like it or not or agree with it or
0:03:19 accept it and so on so forth colonialism
0:03:21 was justified from a liberal
0:03:23 rubric i mean i think that there are
0:03:26 a few things to
0:03:28 keep separate in the discussion
0:03:31 one thing is about the distinction about
0:03:33 the laws that you apply within a state
0:03:35 and what you think governs the behaviour
0:03:38 of states and liberalism was a doctrine
0:03:41 about
0:03:42 what happens within a state it wasn't a
0:03:44 doctrine that spoke to relationships
0:03:46 between states
0:03:48 and there's a kind and there are kind of
0:03:50 very obvious differences here because
0:03:52 within a state you've got a government
0:03:54 all the citizens are subject to the
0:03:56 government the nations are not subject
0:03:58 to any kind of ruler and so you
0:04:01 shouldn't be
0:04:03 thinking as you very quickly said that
0:04:06 um
0:04:06 liberal theory was used to justify
0:04:09 colonialism that's actually i think not
0:04:12 true you said that liberal theory was
0:04:14 never used to justify colonialism uh
0:04:16 because states in their international
0:04:18 relations uh were not subject or
0:04:20 beholden to laws whereas domestically
0:04:23 they're beholden to their own laws
0:04:25 um
0:04:26 i think i would disagree
0:04:28 john stuart mill if you with many he
0:04:30 wrote made many tracks about um how
0:04:33 colonism can be justified and why and
0:04:35 why it's a good thing and what should be
0:04:37 the policy of liberal states um
0:04:38 concerning foreign relations with quote
0:04:41 unquote barbaric nations eventually they
0:04:44 will have to be subdued and they will
0:04:46 have to be control of an iron fist until
0:04:48 they are able if they adopt liberalism
0:04:51 then they then they can be independent
0:04:52 and autonomous and they've reached much
0:04:54 maturity now the thing is this that when
0:04:57 any state goes to war the state has to
0:04:59 explain to its people why it's going to
0:05:01 war it can't just say hey we're going
0:05:03 for money we're going for wealth or fame
0:05:05 the people just wouldn't accept
0:05:07 especially in them in uh representative
0:05:10 systems whereby you know political
0:05:12 parties want to get reelected
0:05:13 so they make excuses like um or that
0:05:16 they have to give some justification
0:05:18 that the people will accept at the very
0:05:20 least uh whether it be civilizing the
0:05:23 natives
0:05:24 we're doing it for their own good we're
0:05:25 educating them for their own good we
0:05:27 have to go over there and give them
0:05:28 superior enlightened values so liberal
0:05:31 theory has been used to justify
0:05:33 colonialism very much so um
0:05:35 tocqueville
0:05:37 mentions that discusses this
0:05:39 as well as many others so i would i
0:05:42 would very much disagree um that label
0:05:44 theory has not been used to justify
0:05:45 colonism indeed it was centrally located
0:05:48 in justifying colonialism because the
0:05:50 people wouldn't accept any other ex any
0:05:52 other reason why you're going around the
0:05:53 world and sending british troops to die
0:05:55 for what purpose
0:05:57 graham what do you make of that i
0:06:00 one thing is to distinguish between
0:06:03 liberal theory what the theory says and
0:06:06 what liberal theorists have said when
0:06:08 they're speaking about other matters and
0:06:10 when it comes to the question i mean
0:06:12 when when i said look liberal theory is
0:06:15 a theory about the state it's not a
0:06:17 theory about international affairs and
0:06:19 you started talking about what some
0:06:21 liberal theorists said about
0:06:22 international affairs that doesn't mean
0:06:25 that what they were giving you were some
0:06:27 consequences of liberal theory they were
0:06:29 just giving their independent views
0:06:31 about how they thought international
0:06:33 affairs should go and it's that's just
0:06:36 got no consequences for liberal theory
0:06:38 as a theory of the running of the state
0:06:41 there's an another thing is that
0:06:45 um
0:06:46 liberalism like islam has a very long
0:06:49 history and
0:06:50 i
0:06:53 you have to draw a distinction one
0:06:55 distinction is between
0:06:57 theory and practice what the theory
0:06:59 tells you another thing is and this is
0:07:02 another point about history that
0:07:04 certainly with liberalism there's a
0:07:06 development over time and
0:07:09 the theory improves and there are ideas
0:07:13 that were had by
0:07:15 the founding fathers people like hume
0:07:18 and locke and can't that have been
0:07:21 disavowed by subsequent generations of
0:07:25 liberals and you can't prove anything by
0:07:27 appealing to things that they said
0:07:30 the professor says quite
0:07:32 quite um
0:07:33 uh yeah happily that
0:07:35 there's liberal theory in his liberal
0:07:37 theorists and so just because one of the
0:07:39 founding fathers of america might have
0:07:41 slaves it doesn't mean that liberalism
0:07:43 believes in slavery which i i totally um
0:07:46 would concur with him on that but then
0:07:47 this brings us to the fundamental
0:07:49 problem of actual liberalism itself
0:07:51 um what is the holy book of liberalism
0:07:53 uh the text that we can refer to that
0:07:55 limits of the amount of interpretation
0:07:57 that can come from uh from liberalism
0:07:59 sets uh parameters to it well there
0:08:02 isn't any
0:08:03 so then what then makes something
0:08:05 liberal what what so what is liberal
0:08:06 theory it's not a platonic form that
0:08:08 floats around
0:08:10 uh that we can access and refer to but
0:08:12 liberal theory is
0:08:13 uh is anything that liberals say it is
0:08:16 is my point and when i was talking about
0:08:18 john when i was talking about um sorry
0:08:19 people liberal theorists advocating
0:08:21 colonialism or what have you um it
0:08:23 wasn't perhaps them just saying i think
0:08:25 colonialism colonialism is a good idea
0:08:28 they wrote detailed tracts
0:08:31 relating their own thinking the thinking
0:08:33 they're on the books and in fact on
0:08:35 liberty the classical book by john
0:08:37 street mill talks about
0:08:39 uh imperialism and colonialism and
0:08:41 justifies it in his own book on liberty
0:08:43 which is viewed as a a great reference
0:08:45 for for classical liberals but for
0:08:48 social liberals mostly
0:08:49 right as in we're under social
0:08:51 liberalism today um as the most dominant
0:08:53 form of liberalism today we know this as
0:08:56 liberal interventionism of a different
0:08:58 kind so i'll be spreading democracy um
0:09:00 is also a key argument or spreading
0:09:02 freedom uh was also used to justify the
0:09:04 war in afghanistan you could also want
0:09:06 to read all the books by john street
0:09:08 mill like on the treatment of barbarous
0:09:09 nations um
0:09:10 he discussed that in a bit more depth
0:09:12 but you can see his justification for
0:09:15 colonialism and imperialism in his book
0:09:17 on liberty which is a very seminal book
0:09:19 of political philosophy by john street
0:09:21 mill you if if ever you're going to
0:09:23 study the the political philosophy of
0:09:24 john's journal upon which much of the
0:09:26 current day modern liberalism or
0:09:28 self-social liberalism uh or at least
0:09:31 from the anglo-saxon perspective is
0:09:32 certainly um
0:09:34 based upon on liberty is the most
0:09:36 preeminent book of his there there is no
0:09:39 separation between liberal theory and
0:09:41 liberal theorists if the liberal
0:09:43 theorist is using is making a
0:09:45 philosophical a politically flawful
0:09:46 argument about something related to
0:09:48 their their other ideas then it's part
0:09:50 of liberal um theory i would say there
0:09:53 is nothing there's no holy book uh of
0:09:55 liberalism which is
0:09:57 why you would probably get more
0:09:58 diversity and interpretation and hence
0:10:01 more lack of clarity in political
0:10:03 philosophy and then one where you have a
0:10:05 holy book which
0:10:06 at least limits the amount of possible
0:10:08 interpretations that one um can can
0:10:11 produce as to the practice of the
0:10:14 prophet muhammad sallallahu alaihi
0:10:15 sallam's sayings to the actions of
0:10:18 muslims um we can make a a quite a
0:10:22 definitive border between those two
0:10:24 think we can certain circumscribe uh
0:10:26 that the prophet muhammad salallahu is
0:10:28 as we believe is a prophet and his
0:10:30 sayings are the basis of our ethics of
0:10:32 our law uh but muslim activities or
0:10:35 actions are not
0:10:36 and can never be and so if the prophet
0:10:39 muhammad salallahu said it if the quran
0:10:42 says something
0:10:43 it has absolute authority um from our
0:10:46 perspective and
0:10:48 overrides anything else
0:10:50 that we might um want to bring
0:10:52 later on and i think that is a good
0:10:54 thing having laws and ideas founded upon
0:10:58 immovable and immutable bases prevents
0:11:01 people from abrogating these ideas later
0:11:03 in in a civilization
0:11:09 i i guess abdullah is making the claim
0:11:11 that there's a centrality that the
0:11:14 islamic tradition has that we can sort
0:11:16 of put a discrete boundary out around
0:11:19 right say this is within the tradition
0:11:20 this is not uh this is history history
0:11:23 is not legal precedence this is legal
0:11:25 prisoners legal precedence is in let's
0:11:26 say the form of their heads or the
0:11:28 whatever jurisprudence um that we have
0:11:31 and that
0:11:32 perhaps liberalism and this is one of
0:11:33 the questions that was asked um
0:11:36 is is it true then that liberalism fails
0:11:39 to have this first principles approach
0:11:42 of creating a boundary by which it
0:11:44 defines what is and isn't liberalism and
0:11:47 in failing to do so
0:11:49 carves opened the space for
0:11:51 i guess projects like the colonial
0:11:53 project which was to enlighten the rest
0:11:55 of the world with a very eurocentric
0:11:57 vision of what it means to be the good
0:11:59 okay so there's a few things i wanted to
0:12:02 respond to and
0:12:20 to learn more about how to critically
0:12:22 engage and understand western political
0:12:24 philosophy and its attendant political
0:12:27 and ethical systems courses are
0:12:29 available by the quran institute which
0:12:31 can be accessed via the link