Atheist Considers Converting to Islam 😲 | Podcast Highlight (2021-01-18) #

0:00:00 yeah so my name is justin i am the host
0:00:02 of the empathetic atheist show
0:00:04 uh i've had both uh uh sharif
0:00:07 and jake on the show before uh
0:00:10 abdulrahman have you been
0:00:11 have you been on before in one of the
0:00:13 after parties
0:00:15 we talk on a daily basis so yeah yeah
0:00:18 i didn't know you had all that hair
0:00:19 going on man i like it
0:00:21 i like it but i think i've only ever
0:00:25 been in the
0:00:26 the comments admiring all these glorious
0:00:28 beards that seem to appear on your show
0:00:32 proper son of birds but yeah i host the
0:00:34 empathetic atheist show
0:00:36 to uh where i have people on uh with
0:00:38 different beliefs different uh
0:00:39 perspectives on
0:00:41 spirituality or supernatural claims
0:00:43 anything like that and
0:00:45 figure out what they believe and why um
0:00:47 i
0:00:48 currently do not debate with uh with
0:00:51 muslims just for the simple fact that i
0:00:53 want to be honest enough
0:00:55 uh i don't debate with muslims on islam
0:00:57 because
0:00:58 i currently don't know enough to even
0:01:01 argue
0:01:02 against it i'm reading the quran i'm
0:01:05 sure
0:01:05 every single person in this room has
0:01:07 heard me recite multiple quranic verses
0:01:10 so i'm learning how to speak uh speak
0:01:13 arabic i'm learning how to read and
0:01:15 write arabic i want to be able to
0:01:17 understand it
0:01:19 and it can go either two ways either i'm
0:01:22 going to
0:01:24 recite the shahada that i've already
0:01:25 memorized well
0:01:27 i memorized it a few months ago i
0:01:29 wouldn't know if i'd be able to do it
0:01:30 exactly right now but
0:01:32 um but i've memorized it just in case or
0:01:34 i will be able to find issues and be
0:01:36 able to at a later point be able to uh
0:01:39 refute some of the claims that are in
0:01:41 the quran uh but
0:01:42 as of right now i just ask these guys
0:01:44 questions uh try and get their
0:01:46 perspective on it
0:01:47 because i don't think that it's
0:01:48 conducive to tell somebody that they're
0:01:51 just not looking at it right you
0:01:52 actually jump into what they believe
0:01:54 their world view
0:01:55 and then see if it's consistent within
0:01:58 their own belief system
0:01:59 justin i was going to ask you a question
0:02:01 actually um
0:02:03 so i was going to say uh you've
0:02:05 obviously came from a christian
0:02:06 background
0:02:08 and i think probably these discussions
0:02:11 have been the first time you probably
0:02:12 interacted with muslims
0:02:14 what's your perception in terms of the
0:02:16 similarities or differences that you've
0:02:18 come across when you talk to christians
0:02:20 as opposed to talking to muslims
0:02:22 um i don't
0:02:26 know a lot of the similarities except
0:02:28 that you both believe in
0:02:29 a god that's like one of the only
0:02:32 different what about the different you
0:02:34 know in terms of that the way
0:02:35 both groups approach things like belief
0:02:38 okay
0:02:38 so when speaking to an atheist
0:02:41 christians will say
0:02:42 i have this book right here
0:02:46 read it have faith jesus says so jesus
0:02:50 is god
0:02:51 and if you don't believe that you're
0:02:52 gonna burn in hell and it becomes a
0:02:54 circular argument to where
0:02:56 god exists because the bible says so and
0:02:59 the bible's the inherent word of god
0:03:01 which proves the bible
0:03:02 that proves god and it just keeps going
0:03:04 in a circle
0:03:05 um and it's fear-mongering and circular
0:03:09 reasoning
0:03:09 that comes from the christian when
0:03:11 speaking to me um
0:03:13 and then when i speak to you guys on a
0:03:15 daily basis we go through philosophical
0:03:18 arguments where you take your belief
0:03:19 system you you have you guys haven't
0:03:21 even brought up
0:03:22 a single quranic verse when speaking
0:03:25 with me
0:03:26 not yet we're not to that point yet
0:03:27 we're simply just
0:03:29 getting me to the point where i'm
0:03:30 understanding that it is possible that
0:03:32 for there to be
0:03:33 a necessary being looking at the kalam
0:03:35 the contingency the necessary being
0:03:38 everything like that and then we then we
0:03:40 move forward and
0:03:41 i can't i think we're at the point where
0:03:43 you guys are like okay now we can look
0:03:45 at the quran
0:03:46 and see what's inside of this book um
0:03:50 to to establish uh some type of
0:03:52 dominancy
0:03:53 over other possible god claims
0:03:56 um so i would say there's a big
0:03:58 difference between those right there
0:04:00 yeah so we we what you're saying is as
0:04:02 muslims we don't really come across as a
0:04:04 witch presupposing the quran
0:04:06 and saying to people right you've got to
0:04:08 believe it because the quran says so we
0:04:10 try and
0:04:10 demonstrate some evidences arguments for
0:04:13 the positions that we hold in the first
0:04:15 one is obviously the belief in a creator
0:04:17 as muslims would say allah subhanahu wa
0:04:20 what is your
0:04:22 thinking about some of the arguments
0:04:24 that have been presented so far
0:04:25 for the existence of what you mentioned
0:04:28 the necessary being
0:04:30 um we don't need to debate it here no
0:04:32 that's fine
0:04:34 to be completely honest with you on it
0:04:36 was stepping completely outside
0:04:39 throwing away as many biases as i have
0:04:41 which i would agree that everybody has
0:04:43 has a bias of some sort um trying to
0:04:46 throw as many of those out the window
0:04:48 and not focus on those
0:04:50 they're quite with my with my frame of
0:04:54 knowledge they're quite um
0:04:56 convincing um just to think that you
0:04:59 know well if the the universe is you
0:05:01 know for example if the universe is
0:05:03 eternal
0:05:04 um then there's a infinite amount of
0:05:08 causes and effects that proceed at this
0:05:09 moment right now so how could we ever
0:05:11 get to this moment right now if it
0:05:12 didn't have a beginning
0:05:13 like that makes sense that's convincing
0:05:15 it's logical
0:05:16 i still the one bias that i hold on to
0:05:19 is though
0:05:19 even though i think that's extremely
0:05:22 logical
0:05:23 and makes a lot of sense
0:05:27 i'm still stuck with this okay so the
0:05:29 premises of the logical syllogism
0:05:32 need to be backed up by some type of
0:05:34 empirical means
0:05:36 so i'm not calling myself an empiricist
0:05:40 but i still value empirical data to a
0:05:43 point to where
0:05:44 i'm not fully convinced
0:05:47 that these are true until i have in it's
0:05:50 it's almost
0:05:50 a little bit past skepticism at that
0:05:53 point when we're speaking of just
0:05:54 logical arguments
0:05:55 can answer your question justin do you
0:05:57 like computer games um
0:05:59 i don't play too many games not
0:06:01 especially not on the computer but
0:06:03 but you've played games before console
0:06:06 games yeah yeah or anything like it like
0:06:08 there's a
0:06:08 you have these online multiplayer games
0:06:10 sometimes have you ever played anything
0:06:12 like that or
0:06:13 yeah yeah i've played those before all
0:06:15 right so imagine there's this uh
0:06:17 world like world of warcraft right it's
0:06:20 a computer program
0:06:22 and uh the people that made it or the
0:06:24 person that made it
0:06:26 um has created these little beings in
0:06:29 there
0:06:29 with uh conscious like they they
0:06:33 are self-aware they're intelligent they
0:06:35 can converse with each other
0:06:37 have you muted yourself on purpose
0:06:40 um so they're self-aware and they can
0:06:41 talk to each other um
0:06:43 and then one of them you you talk to him
0:06:47 and you're you're communicating with him
0:06:49 but you choose him because he's
0:06:51 he's showing particular characteristics
0:06:52 as making you favor him above all the
0:06:55 others
0:06:55 and the reason you're favoring him above
0:06:57 all the others is because if you try
0:06:58 talking to someone who didn't have these
0:07:00 characteristics
0:07:01 it would go to their head or you know
0:07:03 they may express it in a
0:07:05 problematic way and so you pick a
0:07:07 particular one you talk to him you say
0:07:09 spread my message
0:07:10 and he does and um he's telling everyone
0:07:13 listen
0:07:14 there's this being it's made uh this
0:07:17 world that we live in
0:07:18 all these things everything around us
0:07:20 it's all been made uh by this being and
0:07:22 it's communicating and it's giving
0:07:23 guidance
0:07:24 to me uh to give to you a lot so that we
0:07:27 can all
0:07:27 get along much better and work well and
0:07:31 do what it is that we should be doing
0:07:33 and they all say
0:07:34 uh we need our empirical evidence you
0:07:37 need to get something that we can see in
0:07:39 this world that is in the computer game
0:07:42 that proves the existence of the thing
0:07:44 that created it
0:07:45 or another shorter example it's like i
0:07:49 show you a painting
0:07:51 and then you say that no i want to
0:07:54 believe there's a painter
0:07:55 it seems very rational that this painter
0:07:58 exists and he painted this painting
0:08:00 but i need you to show me evidence in
0:08:03 the painting
0:08:04 you can't go beyond the painting you've
0:08:07 got to show me evidence off the painter
0:08:10 in the painting it can't go beyond that
0:08:13 do you see an issue with i think i see
0:08:15 the issue i see the exact issue that
0:08:17 you're speaking of
0:08:18 and do you see how that relates to you
0:08:20 with this issue
0:08:22 yeah i totally understand it makes
0:08:24 complete sense the way you're explaining
0:08:26 it
0:08:26 okay so how would you then react to
0:08:30 trying to get rid of this bias um
0:08:34 just said you think it's more like like
0:08:35 almost we had elmo on and he said he's
0:08:37 got this spiritual feeling in his heart
0:08:40 for the whole thing the atheist fiddler
0:08:42 do you think do you think you've got a
0:08:43 similar like i've just got this feeling
0:08:45 in my heart that i need empirical
0:08:47 evidence
0:08:48 to see god no no i i think it's just a
0:08:52 standard
0:08:52 that i've been set up with and we don't
0:08:55 have to go down this route because i
0:08:56 know i talk about this way too often
0:08:58 determine isn't subscribing to heart
0:09:00 determinism yeah
0:09:02 so yeah
0:09:05 sorry let's add to that because because
0:09:07 i think
0:09:08 like because you're talking about
0:09:09 cosmological arguments right um
0:09:12 specifically the contingency argument it
0:09:14 is kind of empirical in the sense that
0:09:16 what it does is it points to the
0:09:18 to to the observable and it makes an
0:09:21 inference to the unobservable so in a
0:09:23 sense it is empirical
0:09:24 it isn't scientific but it isn't
0:09:27 empirical like
0:09:28 in the sense that it does use the
0:09:30 contingent world or the observable world
0:09:33 around us as a basis for the inference
0:09:36 that god exists
0:09:38 yeah yeah i can understand that i can
0:09:40 definitely understand that
0:09:43 so what i was what i was basically
0:09:45 getting at was that
0:09:48 i can't choose what i'm convinced of um
0:09:51 and i can't choose what convinces me um
0:09:54 i have a certain standards of evidence
0:09:57 that is set up
0:09:59 to where i either accept a proposition
0:10:03 or i deny the
0:10:04 proposition if there's a separate
0:10:07 argument that can be made
0:10:08 that can convince me that a different
0:10:11 standards of evidence
0:10:13 is more reasonable then my can
0:10:16 my my standards of conviction would then
0:10:19 change do you understand what i'm saying
0:10:21 but we you know i was going to say
0:10:25 justin you know that isn't we had the
0:10:27 discussion about
0:10:28 causality i mean even on your show i had
0:10:31 this discussion about how it's
0:10:32 presupposed within the scientific method
0:10:35 um so you know we accept this particular
0:10:38 idea even though we haven't got
0:10:40 empirical evidence for it
0:10:42 you know because it makes sense of the
0:10:43 universe around us
0:10:45 so i'm saying is on the same basis we
0:10:48 can make sense of the universe around us
0:10:50 by referring to a necessary being yeah
0:10:53 and
0:10:54 and and you what i my personal opinion
0:10:57 on this justin is that i think that
0:10:59 you're it's more of a
0:11:00 it's almost like a psychological thing
0:11:03 you want to like sort of that
0:11:04 light bulb moment you know where you
0:11:06 know the holy spirit and all the
0:11:09 gods the clouds are no vanilla
0:11:12 shrimp
0:11:17 i've always looked at it is it's not
0:11:19 really about
0:11:20 the emotional impact of the feeling per
0:11:23 se
0:11:24 it's about the sincerity of the idea do
0:11:26 i agree upon this idea
0:11:28 it respects my emotions yeah and i know
0:11:30 emotion
0:11:31 sounds like i'm saying oh you're just
0:11:33 being emotional i'm not saying that
0:11:34 because obviously for you it's like
0:11:35 you know there's something that's
0:11:37 holding you back and i'm saying that
0:11:40 just dripping everything away just on
0:11:42 the basis of the idea and being
0:11:43 consistent on the idea
0:11:45 can we conclude that there is a
0:11:47 necessary being
0:11:48 you mentioned you want empirical facts
0:11:50 for the empirical evidence for the
0:11:51 premises as abdulrahman mentioned
0:11:53 well the premises are built you know if
0:11:55 you want to say every contingent being
0:11:58 requires a cause or an explanation
0:11:59 that's what we sense of the reality or
0:12:01 if you want to say
0:12:02 everything that begins to exist as a
0:12:04 cause the universe begins to exist
0:12:06 therefore the universe has to go that's
0:12:07 all empirical the empiricism and science
0:12:10 proves that point at the moment at this
0:12:11 moment in time the rest of the
0:12:13 discussion is just a logical entailment
0:12:15 of that
0:12:15 like for example all men are mortal
0:12:19 john is a man therefore john is mortal
0:12:21 that's just a logical entailment of what
0:12:23 we can sense around us
0:12:24 so i'm just saying just based on that
0:12:27 idea
0:12:29 yeah forget about whether i'm getting a
0:12:30 light bulb moment or not
0:12:32 can i be convinced on that idea
0:12:35 i mean to to add to that to that to that
0:12:37 because i like using this example
0:12:39 um like human chimp common ancestry
0:12:42 right you you believe in it clearly as
0:12:44 an atheist i think you do
0:12:46 uh what it does is basically it makes an
0:12:49 inference from the observable data to
0:12:51 the unobservable
0:12:55 which is human chimp common ancestry we
0:12:57 don't have direct observable evidence of
0:13:00 it but what it does is that it
0:13:01 kind of interprets the evidence in the
0:13:03 most coherent way possible to make that
0:13:05 inference from the observable
0:13:07 to the unobservable and now i'm not
0:13:09 trying to put science at the same
0:13:11 epistemic level of these logical and
0:13:14 rational discussions we're having here
0:13:16 we we could discuss that we can discuss
0:13:18 epistemology
0:13:18 but what i'm saying is the idea is
0:13:21 exactly the same
0:13:22 in the sense that you make an inference
0:13:24 from the observable or the empirical
0:13:26 to the unobservable and people do that
0:13:29 all the time
0:13:32 yeah yeah i i totally agree with you i i
0:13:35 agree with everything you guys are
0:13:37 saying
0:13:38 um it's it's something that
0:13:41 that if you would understand is is for
0:13:43 for right now within my understanding is
0:13:45 out of my control
0:13:46 my conviction is completely out of my
0:13:49 control on what i'm convinced of
0:13:51 i'm basically an observer sitting back
0:13:53 listening to everything that everybody's
0:13:55 saying and
0:13:56 whatever clicks clicks and whatever
0:13:57 doesn't doesn't
0:13:59 well we don't want to go down that route
0:14:01 of the like reliability of rational
0:14:03 faculties because we
0:14:05 like really add that discussion like
0:14:08 that but but the thing is do you want
0:14:11 your beliefs to be rational
0:14:13 i don't want to use the word want
0:14:15 because i mean
0:14:17 misunderstood me there before but in a
0:14:20 sense are your beliefs
0:14:21 supposed to be rational should they be
0:14:25 rational
0:14:26 yeah should they i would agree that they
0:14:30 should be rational yeah yeah
0:14:33 yeah made an interesting comment on this
0:14:35 as i said he said uh well see abdullah
0:14:38 ali al and lucy made the same point
0:14:40 philosophical arguments
0:14:42 hardly affects an overall change uh i
0:14:44 still think the innate predisposition to
0:14:46 god
0:14:47 and studying islam uh especially the
0:14:49 surah
0:14:50 is probably the biggest motivating and
0:14:52 as well
0:14:53 obviously coming from a non-muslim
0:14:55 background and i don't know to what
0:14:57 degree jake
0:14:58 can relate to this as well and but
0:15:00 sometimes i feel like
0:15:01 one of the biggest obstacle for like
0:15:04 white westerners
0:15:05 is just this uh feeling
0:15:09 of like what it might be like to
0:15:11 identify as
0:15:13 muslim and maybe there's a sort of fear
0:15:14 of um
0:15:16 how you might be perceived by your
0:15:18 community or
0:15:20 uh the the level of commitment that's
0:15:21 involved with it for example having to
0:15:23 pray five times a day fasting and things
0:15:24 like that
0:15:25 uh maybe fear of um how this might
0:15:28 affect
0:15:29 relationships with uh people that are
0:15:30 closely so i heard children running in
0:15:32 the background so i'm guessing you've
0:15:33 got
0:15:34 a wife and kids and yeah quite a few
0:15:37 so do you think that any of this
0:15:41 might be making uh an obstacle for your
0:15:45 accepting islam or like for example
0:15:48 you've gone through a few of these
0:15:50 rational arguments and you seem
0:15:52 convinced the idea like although
0:15:55 you identify as an atheist you your show
0:15:57 is called the the empathetic atheist
0:15:59 um i'm guessing like you you have a huge
0:16:03 especially when dealing with christians
0:16:05 you you may talk to them about
0:16:08 how you know you need to be rational
0:16:10 this thing doesn't make sense that thing
0:16:11 doesn't make sense
0:16:12 and so like you're kind of applying this
0:16:16 to the christian and then but then when
0:16:18 we're trying to apply this
0:16:20 to you there's a sort of disconjunct
0:16:23 where you're rationally convinced of
0:16:25 arguments but
0:16:26 there's this unseen force that's sort of
0:16:30 getting in the way of that so have you
0:16:33 thought about how it may be
0:16:34 other things not necessarily rational
0:16:36 but more just sociological
0:16:38 um i wouldn't say it really has anything
0:16:42 to do
0:16:43 with um islam actually would be the
0:16:45 exact opposite because
0:16:47 for some reason you know like when
0:16:49 you're a kid and and you're getting
0:16:51 ready for the next school year
0:16:52 and you just got this feeling like these
0:16:54 are going to be the popular shoes like i
0:16:56 need to go pick myself a pair of air
0:16:58 force ones
0:16:58 because those are going to be what's
0:16:59 popular is this this year in school
0:17:02 and that's well you know that's that's
0:17:03 what you want to go do
0:17:05 i actually have this
0:17:08 innate desire to
0:17:11 become a muslim i really
0:17:14 i want to um
0:17:18 take your shadow that's that
0:17:21 just raise your hand justin
0:17:24 here's the thing here's the thing i
0:17:28 am not ready to submit i i
0:17:31 i my intentionality is not there and
0:17:34 from the
0:17:35 uh research and studying that i've done
0:17:38 into islam
0:17:39 you have to be ready to fully submit
0:17:42 give your entire ego up
0:17:44 to the the intentionality is literally
0:17:47 everything when it comes to islam
0:17:49 so even though it's appealing to me and
0:17:52 reciting the quran
0:17:53 is is is like the most beautiful
0:17:56 language i've ever heard in my life
0:17:58 and all this stuff it's appealing to my
0:18:01 emotions
0:18:02 but on a logical basis i can't let my
0:18:05 emotions get involved
0:18:07 yeah but what you what yourself was
0:18:09 saying earlier is what you're saying
0:18:11 is that logically the argument makes
0:18:14 sense believing one god makes sense yeah
0:18:16 the necessary being
0:18:18 so that's the the aspect and then
0:18:20 obviously you know
0:18:21 you know we do have an emotional aspect
0:18:23 to us as well so that's
0:18:25 part of makes us a human being this
0:18:27 desire to want to
0:18:29 do actions and feel emotions and things
0:18:31 like that and so
0:18:32 what you've got in essence with islam is
0:18:35 a synergy between
0:18:37 a rational conception of the creator
0:18:39 that
0:18:40 satisfies this innate desire within a
0:18:42 human being that wants to
0:18:44 sanctify wants to see things that are
0:18:47 greater in purpose and meaning than just
0:18:49 being
0:18:50 material that's rolling down the hill
0:18:52 you know through a deterministic pattern
0:18:55 yeah so i'm just saying there's a
0:18:56 synergy regardless of this obviously i
0:18:58 don't think we've really
0:18:59 gone into a major discussion about the
0:19:01 uh
0:19:03 evidences for the quran and why we
0:19:05 believe that the quran is the word
0:19:07 of the creator and things like that i
0:19:09 think maybe that's a discussion that
0:19:10 needs to be had
0:19:11 um but i think it's just something to
0:19:13 think about and
0:19:15 you know uh yeah there's no rush
0:19:19 obviously in terms of that but
0:19:22 the the thing i would like you to think
0:19:24 about as well is
0:19:25 um one thing people sometimes do is they
0:19:28 sort of
0:19:28 assume that in order to become a muslim
0:19:30 they have to be ready to go full
0:19:31 super muzzy like you know and
0:19:35 it's i really think there's a brother
0:19:38 called hamza
0:19:39 he he has a really good point in this
0:19:41 that sometimes it's um
0:19:44 we what we believe is that basically the
0:19:46 shaytan whispers to you
0:19:47 and he tries everything he can to
0:19:49 prevent you from accepting
0:19:51 um what we believe is true and he does
0:19:54 this by
0:19:55 uh really kind of setting the standard
0:19:57 so high so that if you ever
0:19:59 like kind of get yourself to a point
0:20:01 where you might think
0:20:02 uh you would submit that it would have
0:20:04 to be on the basis that you'd like
0:20:07 can read arabic you already know how to
0:20:09 pray and so on and so forth
0:20:11 now i would say be careful of that kind
0:20:14 of thinking
0:20:15 because it's it's not the case like half
0:20:17 of the time
0:20:19 most of that you learn once you've taken
0:20:21 the shahadah and it's the shahada that
0:20:23 really helps motivate that
0:20:25 process of learning um and that's not to
0:20:27 say you should that like
0:20:29 you know i'm trying to get you to take
0:20:30 it today right now
0:20:32 although that would be absolutely
0:20:33 amazing for the number one podcast for
0:20:36 the channel
0:20:37 for the channel views i mean
0:20:40 justin i've told you in the past dude
0:20:42 all you really need to do
0:20:43 is just change one word in your youtube
0:20:46 channel just make it the empathetic
0:20:48 muslim
0:20:48 and you're good to go man
0:20:54 i'm not scared to do that i'm not scared
0:20:56 to do that at all i i'm
0:20:58 fully ready to you know to to to take
0:21:01 that
0:21:02 take that uh title and change it now
0:21:04 i'll probably i'm almost to a thousand
0:21:06 subscribers there now
0:21:08 i'd probably lose most of the
0:21:09 subscribers well
0:21:12 look how much more you gain man i mean
0:21:26 he was talking from a more spiritual
0:21:28 angle like about like
0:21:30 um the rituals that you have to do
0:21:33 or whatever practices you have to engage
0:21:35 in when you become a muslim that
0:21:36 commitment
0:21:37 but also from an epistemological
0:21:39 perspective the same might be true if
0:21:41 you're a fallible
0:21:42 knowledge in the sense that you don't
0:21:44 have to be a hundred percent certain
0:21:46 about what you know
0:21:47 then you can really take that leap as
0:21:49 long as uh
0:21:51 you know the evidence you have is
0:21:53 sufficient and i think you kind of need
0:21:55 to like draw the line where you want to
0:21:57 set that bar
0:21:58 for something on a fallbase basis
0:22:01 because
0:22:02 almost everything we know is is
0:22:05 uncertain in that strict deep
0:22:06 philosophical
0:22:08 understanding of what like certainty is
0:22:11 we don't have that kind of certainty
0:22:14 that we have with
0:22:15 the the the i think therefore i am with
0:22:18 most of what we know
0:22:19 so even from an epistemological
0:22:21 perspective you don't have to
0:22:23 attain that 100 certainty in order to
0:22:26 take a leap
0:22:27 and say that okay it is reasonable to
0:22:30 say that this
0:22:31 proposition is true yeah and the same
0:22:34 goes for like
0:22:35 when you became an atheist did you have
0:22:37 to get yourself to that like 100 percent
0:22:40 level in terms of knowledge base and
0:22:42 this that nearly before you started
0:22:44 identifying
0:22:44 i'm still not there so yeah exactly so
0:22:47 like
0:22:48 you weren't 100 in the the realm of the
0:22:52 atheist
0:22:53 uh you weren't 100 in terms of your
0:22:54 absolute knowledge base you're not
0:22:56 completely convinced
0:22:57 there isn't a god yet you're willing to
0:22:59 identify as one
0:23:00 and so i think if if anybody if any
0:23:03 atheist would say that they have 100
0:23:05 knowledge of their claims my next
0:23:08 question to them is why are you even
0:23:09 having conversations with people
0:23:12 like why are you even talking to them
0:23:14 because i mean my
0:23:15 my purpose of talking to you guys is not
0:23:18 to just
0:23:18 show you guys how you're wrong like i
0:23:20 don't care about winning
0:23:22 or losing a debate i really don't care
0:23:24 about any of that it's about gaining
0:23:25 knowledge learning something from
0:23:27 somebody
0:23:28 you know bill nye has a quote uh says
0:23:30 every person you meet knows something
0:23:31 that you don't
0:23:32 so my my purpose is to is to get out and
0:23:35 have
0:23:36 conversations with people um most of the
0:23:38 time that disagree with me
0:23:40 because that's where you learn the most
0:23:42 you get into an echo chamber and you
0:23:43 guys just are sitting around like a
0:23:45 bunch of pelicans like
0:23:46 mine you just speak the same gibberish
0:23:49 to each other that you hear on a daily
0:23:51 basis
0:23:52 and that's why i you know that's why i
0:23:54 got away from the christian church
0:23:55 because
0:23:56 you know on the pulpit you just hear the
0:23:57 same crap every single
0:23:59 every single sunday um so i like getting
0:24:03 out and speaking to people that have
0:24:04 disagreements with me
0:24:05 so maybe i can figure out where i'm
0:24:08 wrong
0:24:08 and and where i can be right
0:24:12 right yeah and like i said to elmo it'd
0:24:15 be great to maybe get you on here uh
0:24:18 where we can spend
0:24:18 like a decent amount of time with you
0:24:20 without having to worry about other
0:24:21 people coming on
0:24:22 sure um but if you're up for that we can
0:24:24 maybe we'll have a little
0:24:26 chat maybe set up a little i'm just
0:24:27 waiting for jake to tell me that i don't
0:24:29 know anything
0:24:31 you know i tell you that all the time
0:24:33 dude but yeah justin
0:24:35 it's it's just pleasure talking to you
0:24:37 i'm sure we'll talk again on the show
0:24:38 sometime in the future god willing
0:24:41 um but yeah we we should probably move
0:24:43 on to next person just because it's the
0:24:45 first is the first show and we want to
0:24:47 get you know just a few people in here
0:24:49 but uh i appreciate you guys yeah we
0:24:52 appreciate it hello
0:24:53 we've got a special guest how you doing
0:24:58 can you hear us oh is it just headphones
0:25:01 oh dude yeah he can't he i got my
0:25:03 headphones no i was guessing that
0:25:05 maybe if he presses his head against
0:25:06 your ear
0:25:09 you're right little man can you hear us
0:25:11Laughter 0:25:13 all right well thank you guys for having
0:25:14 me on i appreciate you uh yeah yeah yeah
0:25:16 bringing me on the show if anybody in
0:25:20 the chat
0:25:20 if you guys are interested um in
0:25:23 in having a conversation i would like
0:25:25 more muslims
0:25:26 uh to come to to come and have a
0:25:28 conversation on my show because it's
0:25:29 typically just
0:25:30 cookie cutter christians all the time
0:25:32 and i'd like a different i'd like a
0:25:34 different scenery
0:25:35 a different respect but the problem is
0:25:37 that uh whenever you live stream it's
0:25:39 always a stupid o'clock in the morning
0:25:40 for us brits
0:25:42 oh yeah and like i'm just about i'm just
0:25:44 about to go to bed and then i'll notice
0:25:46 you're
0:25:46 live streaming and i'll jump on mention
0:25:48 something about someone's beard and
0:25:49 that's right now i've got to go pass out
0:25:51 i just remember you mentioned christians
0:25:53 again before you leave because you said
0:25:55 something in the beginning
0:25:56 and i want to be fair to christians
0:25:58 because you said something about the
0:25:59 approach christians have to
0:26:01 to their religion and to proving that
0:26:02 their religion is true and you know that
0:26:04 it's just circular the bible says
0:26:06 therefore it's true i think that's the
0:26:08 christians you've been exposed to
0:26:09 because
0:26:10 there are a lot of amazing christian
0:26:11 philosophers out there and there are a
0:26:12 lot of christians who have
0:26:13 a more like evidentialist approach to
0:26:15 proving that their religion is true
0:26:17 and there are a lot of christians who
0:26:19 actually argue for the truth of their
0:26:20 religion so i just don't want that to be
0:26:22 like
0:26:23 sweeping generalization yeah yeah i
0:26:25 don't know i don't mean to generalize at
0:26:27 all i've spoken with a lot of christians
0:26:28 that actually make some pretty good
0:26:30 arguments but
0:26:31 um basically what i was what what i was
0:26:33 getting at is is when speaking with uh
0:26:35 when speaking with an
0:26:36 uh atheist that's typically what i get
0:26:40 now the issue that i have and i'll say
0:26:42 this real quick before before i leave
0:26:44 is that when it comes to
0:26:47 muslims talking to christians and
0:26:48 christians talking to muslims
0:26:50 normally i hear you know jake going on
0:26:52 about the incarnation the atonement the
0:26:55 trinity things like that and then when
0:26:57 christians want to fire back about islam
0:26:59 they say well
0:27:00 you know let's talk crap about prophet
0:27:03 muhammed let's let's talk about the
0:27:06 splitting the moon in half let's talk
0:27:07 about the you know i think i brought up
0:27:09 the toothbrush
0:27:10 incident with you guys before like they
0:27:13 bring up these stupid little quirky
0:27:14 things about you know
0:27:16 about what they think is a defeater for
0:27:18 islam
0:27:20 i kind of agree with that so i think
0:27:22 that like christian philosophers in
0:27:24 general
0:27:24 as far as like their when they talk
0:27:27 about like philosophy and metaphysically
0:27:30 they're amazing also when they're trying
0:27:31 to make a positive case for their
0:27:33 religion they have a lot to say
0:27:35 but when it comes to interfaith dialogue
0:27:37 with muslims i think that's where
0:27:39 the curve goes a bit down yeah yeah i
0:27:43 think what you're trying to say justin
0:27:44 is that
0:27:45 we have like contentions to the creedal
0:27:48 matters the very
0:27:49 you know basis of christianity whereas
0:27:51 when some christians criticize
0:27:53 uh muslims and islam they're talking
0:27:56 about very branch
0:27:57 aspects things are not necessary
0:28:01 in origin to what makes a muslim a
0:28:03 muslim yeah it's the difference between
0:28:05 discussing
0:28:06 uh the foundational things like you know
0:28:08 talking about
0:28:09 that which underpins the whole theology
0:28:12 and then talking about secondary issues
0:28:15 which are all like the truth or falsity
0:28:17 of them rely on
0:28:18 the foundational things that they're
0:28:20 just skipping over in order to kind of
0:28:22 make these
0:28:23 sort of pot shots and low blows uh low
0:28:26 hanging fruit
0:28:27 yeah i understand all right well i don't
0:28:30 want to take up any more you're getting
0:28:32 today you guys get more guests
0:28:35 all right take care and i will speak to
0:28:37 you again