Londoniyyah - Part 15 - Nihilism | Mohammed Hijab (2022-02-01) #

0:00:12 welcome to the ninth session yes we've
0:00:14 come a long way in terms of our
0:00:16 progression in the london area
0:00:18 alhamdulillah i think the group here has
0:00:19 really benefited in a very positive
0:00:20 manner
0:00:21 and uh they've improved them in uh
0:00:24 obviously you guys can't see them but i
0:00:25 can and their discussions and debates
0:00:27 have really
0:00:29 you know developed in a staggering way
0:00:32 today we're going to be speaking about
0:00:33 nihilism and nihilism is one of those
0:00:36 ideologies
0:00:37 if we can call it that or one of those
0:00:40 notions if you want to put in that
0:00:42 language
0:00:43 which really has gripped the new age
0:00:47 so we're going to listen to some of the
0:00:48 poetry regarding this with the sheikh
0:00:50 and we'll come back and speak about
0:00:52 nihilism
0:00:53 firstly
0:01:17 let's start off with uh different types
0:01:19 of nihilism one of the most if you can
0:01:22 maybe the most actually
0:01:24 foundational kind of nihilism is what is
0:01:26 referred to as existential nihilism now
0:01:29 the word existential obviously comes
0:01:30 from the word exist
0:01:32 now we exist
0:01:34 and existential nihilism as you can see
0:01:36 in the slides
0:01:38 according to the internet encyclopedia
0:01:41 it says is the belief that all values
0:01:43 are baseless and that nothing can be
0:01:45 known or communicated it's often
0:01:47 associated with extreme pessimism and a
0:01:49 radical skepticism that condemns
0:01:51 existence a true nihilist would believe
0:01:53 in nothing have no loyalties and no
0:01:56 purpose other than perhaps
0:01:58 and impulse to destroy
0:02:00 and nietzsche refers to nihilism in
0:02:02 general general as
0:02:04 radical repudiation of value meaning and
0:02:06 desirability
0:02:09 now what can you say after that
0:02:12 obviously just for those who don't know
0:02:14 who nietzsche is nietzsche frederick
0:02:16 nietzsche
0:02:17 was one of really the founding fathers
0:02:20 of post-modernism or post-structuralism
0:02:23 which we've kind of alluded to in
0:02:24 previous sessions
0:02:26 and he's also
0:02:28 actually credited with contributing to
0:02:30 nihilism even though to be fair
0:02:32 i couldn't say the majority but a large
0:02:35 chunk of commentators on nietzsche
0:02:38 uh don't regard nietzsche himself as a
0:02:40 nihilist which is a bit of a
0:02:41 interesting
0:02:43 paradox if you like but we'll explain
0:02:44 why they don't see him as a nihilist
0:02:46 even though he contributed to our
0:02:48 understanding of nihilism you could
0:02:50 argue actually he's one of the main
0:02:51 names that contributed to our
0:02:53 understanding
0:02:54 of nihilism
0:02:57 and
0:02:58 a book that was written recently was by
0:03:00 alex rosenberg
0:03:02 an atheist guide to reality and in this
0:03:05 book
0:03:06 um rosenberg says
0:03:08 that purpose and its parents aboutness
0:03:11 are illusions created by introspection
0:03:15 we are living an illusory existence
0:03:18 really there is no meaning there's no
0:03:20 purpose there's no such thing as
0:03:23 truth of course because there's no
0:03:25 purpose there's no purpose that's fixed
0:03:27 or assigned to our lives there's no
0:03:29 purpose that is fixed or assigned to our
0:03:32 existence all of it is aimless and
0:03:34 purposeless we exist
0:03:37 as infinitesimally small specks
0:03:40 in a
0:03:42 in a universe which is huge
0:03:44 which outsizes us
0:03:46 hugely
0:03:48 and we
0:03:49 we are we are worthless actually we we
0:03:52 don't have any purpose and
0:03:54 the truth of the matter according to
0:03:56 this obviously understanding
0:03:59 is
0:04:00 that there is no truth of the matter
0:04:02 the truth of the matter is that there is
0:04:04 no truth
0:04:06 you know and also you could say
0:04:08 you know and this is one of my common
0:04:10 sense lies i had to rethink it you know
0:04:12 there is no truth of the matter in fact
0:04:14 uh i would say also this is that
0:04:17 there's two things we're trying to run
0:04:18 away from
0:04:20 there's two things one of them is death
0:04:22 we're trying to the the
0:04:24 ultimate end you know
0:04:26 um
0:04:27 heidegger one of he wasn't an analyst
0:04:28 but a heidegger martin heidegger who is
0:04:31 a german philosopher in the 40s
0:04:33 he he mentioned this he mentioned
0:04:35 actually the most authentic you can be
0:04:37 is by recognizing what death is about
0:04:39 and so on he's very interesting kind of
0:04:40 existentialist philosopher but death is
0:04:42 inescapable and we are trying to run
0:04:44 away from death
0:04:46 and not only is it that death is we're
0:04:48 looking at but also so therefore
0:04:51 sorry one more thing is suffering
0:04:53 suffering is all over the world
0:04:55 you know and we need to we need to
0:04:57 escape suffering
0:04:58 and so in order to kind of just distract
0:05:01 ourselves from death and suffering we
0:05:03 have invented
0:05:05 religion
0:05:07 we have invented ideology
0:05:09 we have invented purpose we have
0:05:11 invented value and we have even invented
0:05:14 truth we're just great human inventors
0:05:17 we everything is a social construct in
0:05:19 fact you know
0:05:20 and the truth is when we peel all of
0:05:22 this away and realize there's nothing
0:05:24 left there is nothing left according to
0:05:26 them there's no purpose no value
0:05:28 nothing just
0:05:30 you are an infinitesimally small speck
0:05:33 of dust
0:05:34 on a small speck of dust type planet in
0:05:38 a very small insignificant milky way in
0:05:41 a very small galaxy in a very small
0:05:42 universe of maybe
0:05:44 an infinite universe multiverse so we're
0:05:46 nothing you're nothing i'm nothing and
0:05:48 your problems are nothing and all your
0:05:50 happiness your love whoever you love
0:05:53 is that's nothing that's that's
0:05:56 invented
0:05:57 thing
0:05:59 and so on
0:06:01 so this is really
0:06:03 the idea
0:06:05 viktor frankl
0:06:08 states
0:06:09 the truth is that the struggle for
0:06:11 survival has subsided
0:06:13 the question has emerged survival for
0:06:15 what
0:06:17 ever more people
0:06:18 have the means to live
0:06:20 but nothing to live for
0:06:22 a question is like after you've now
0:06:25 secured because the darwinian paradigm
0:06:27 says that we live as animals as
0:06:30 glorified sophisticated
0:06:32 animals
0:06:33 with two
0:06:34 primary motivations the motivation to
0:06:37 survive survivability and reproduction
0:06:41 and to reproduce
0:06:43 but now that we've settled our desire to
0:06:45 survive and even maybe even settled our
0:06:48 desire to reproduce if we even have that
0:06:50 desire anymore some don't have that
0:06:52 desire
0:06:54 if we've settled those desires
0:06:56 then what is this really for
0:07:00 in fact
0:07:01 on this world view there's nothing to
0:07:02 live for
0:07:04 because there's absolutely
0:07:07 well what are we living for you know
0:07:09 franco says
0:07:13 nothing to live for in fact we
0:07:15 philosophers and this is what nietzsche
0:07:16 says okay
0:07:18 and free spirits
0:07:22 feel as if we are illumined
0:07:24 by a new dawn on receiving the news that
0:07:26 the old god is dead and this is a very
0:07:29 famous line that was proported or
0:07:30 mentioned by nietzsche god is dead he
0:07:33 says actually if you look at the context
0:07:35 of how he said this he said as a mad man
0:07:37 he goes into the town he says god is
0:07:39 dead god is dead and we've killed him
0:07:40 what does he mean god is dead and we've
0:07:42 killed him what do you mean by this he
0:07:44 means that we've morality the old
0:07:46 morality is no longer tenable
0:07:48 we know where it came from we know that
0:07:50 it was invented that humans made it up
0:07:52 and therefore this thing is nonsense so
0:07:55 now we have to reinvent everything
0:07:56 because the old way is the gun
0:07:59 that's what it means by
0:08:02 but he continues on by saying our hearts
0:08:04 are filled with gratitude wonder
0:08:07 premonition anticipation
0:08:10 at last the new horizon seems to us open
0:08:13 again the sea our sea lies open before
0:08:16 us perhaps there has never been such an
0:08:18 open sea
0:08:19 optimistic words
0:08:21 for a very pessimistic
0:08:23 man quite frankly you know nature
0:08:26 but this and we'll come to this why
0:08:28 nietzsche although he's done all this
0:08:30 deconstruction
0:08:31 we can call it destroying metanarratives
0:08:33 destroying
0:08:34 religion and god is and all this but he
0:08:37 actually doesn't say stop there he says
0:08:38 that we have to rise above this he
0:08:39 mentions the ubermensch the
0:08:41 uh well actually the nazis use this i
0:08:44 idea the idea of the overlord
0:08:46 the man who comes out and invents his
0:08:49 own reality now that everything is gone
0:08:50 there's everything is rubble in the
0:08:52 trash heap of history now we have to
0:08:54 create our own meaning and our own
0:08:56 understanding we hear this a lot well if
0:08:57 you ask someone
0:08:59 go to the street
0:09:01 and ask them this is the most important
0:09:02 question in life in fact one of
0:09:06 the world's most ultimate questions what
0:09:08 is the purpose of life
0:09:10 and you'll be
0:09:12 probably hear something the effect of we
0:09:14 create our own purpose
0:09:16 and this is where it's coming from it's
0:09:18 coming from this idea that we're free
0:09:19 spirits that there is no objective
0:09:21 purpose objective reality doesn't even
0:09:24 we're not sure of
0:09:26 ergo epistemological nihilism but then
0:09:29 we'll come to it but the idea is we
0:09:32 invent our own purpose whatever we love
0:09:34 to love and to be loved whatever it is
0:09:35 we like we enjoy
0:09:37 that's the purpose of life but that's
0:09:38 really coming from a nature spirit
0:09:43 now there are different types of
0:09:44 nihilism there's moral nihilism
0:09:47 which we're going to cover very
0:09:48 important to us because many people are
0:09:50 moral nihilists and they say that there
0:09:52 are no moral values there's no such
0:09:54 thing as moral values
0:09:55 there's no objective moral values that
0:09:57 everything is created by us social
0:09:59 constructs and so on there are no moral
0:10:02 values
0:10:04 and i i find it really
0:10:06 strange
0:10:07 that people that classify themselves as
0:10:09 moral nihilists would attack islam or
0:10:11 other religions
0:10:12 you don't believe in morality you don't
0:10:14 believe it even exists well then you'll
0:10:16 start speaking about stoning and this
0:10:17 and you know
0:10:19 amputations and all well amputating or
0:10:22 stoning is equivalent to
0:10:25 you know eating hot chocolate or
0:10:26 something to you
0:10:27 it's all just you know it's nothing it
0:10:29 has no meaning
0:10:30 this is and we really need to identify
0:10:33 this if someone i if someone identifies
0:10:35 as a nihilist
0:10:37 there is no use having a moral
0:10:38 discussion with them because they don't
0:10:40 believe in morality
0:10:42 it's like speaking about santa claus
0:10:45 or something that we all know doesn't
0:10:46 exist
0:10:47 you know it's like why are we even
0:10:49 having this conversation you're a moral
0:10:50 nihilist
0:10:51 and the conversation really ends there
0:10:53 you know
0:10:54 but anyway the moral nihilism that there
0:10:56 are no moral values
0:10:58 epistemological nihilism there's no
0:10:59 truth and we talked about this
0:11:01 a little bit when it came to the first
0:11:03 ever the
0:11:04 session we've done we talked about like
0:11:05 what kind of truths neopragmatism the
0:11:09 the the type of which was propounded by
0:11:11 richard rorty and others it kind of
0:11:14 moves in this direction quite frankly
0:11:15 you know
0:11:17 and
0:11:19 you could argue there's an overlap then
0:11:21 cosmic nihilism that the cosmos is
0:11:23 unintelligible that is
0:11:25 it's just a heap of material which um we
0:11:29 don't really know what to make of it
0:11:30 really
0:11:33 it's just a heap of living in the
0:11:34 universe just a heap of material there's
0:11:35 nothing there you know
0:11:38 existentialism there's no purpose of
0:11:39 life you guys are saying this purpose of
0:11:41 life actually it's all fake
0:11:42 it's all fake
0:11:44 so you're it's a fraud
0:11:45 it's that's what it is
0:11:49 and obviously uh political nihilism um
0:11:51 and this was the usage that was used in
0:11:53 the kind of 19th century in russia
0:11:55 which is that we don't accept the
0:11:56 authority of the government
0:11:58 we don't accept the authority of any
0:12:00 political act fact not just the
0:12:01 government any political actor
0:12:04 you know so
0:12:05 why should these authorities
0:12:08 we don't accept and we don't even we
0:12:10 don't believe it has any value
0:12:12 we shrug our shoulders to nothing
0:12:15 now
0:12:21 going to focusing a little bit on
0:12:23 existentialism it negates obviously
0:12:26 meaning not just it doesn't just negate
0:12:27 purpose but meaning as well
0:12:29 which is deep very deep what
0:12:33 i want you to speak to the person next
0:12:34 to you for the next three minutes what
0:12:36 are the implications the question is
0:12:38 what are the implications of negating
0:12:41 meaning like if you negate the meaning
0:12:45 of things that we can know which is a
0:12:47 pathology things that we can know how we
0:12:49 can make sense of the world
0:12:50 what kind of implications can this have
0:12:52 for three minutes
0:12:53 we need someone to just uh summarize
0:12:55 what we've spoken about so far
0:12:57 because i it might be over complicated
0:12:59 so what
0:13:02 have we spoken about what is what is
0:13:03 nihilism what are the different types of
0:13:05 nihilism
0:13:10 yeah so um yeah yeah yeah we mentioned a
0:13:12 couple yep so you have um existentialism
0:13:15 yes which is obviously to do with
0:13:17 existence so there's no meaning to
0:13:18 existence so there's no meaning to
0:13:20 existence no purpose to existence yep uh
0:13:23 we had as well like we said there's like
0:13:25 political nihilism in the 19th century i
0:13:27 think we said in russia yeah which is to
0:13:29 do with sort of um
0:13:30 kind of denying the authority of the
0:13:32 state that no one should have authority
0:13:33 over me kind of thing yeah um
0:13:36 we said as well uh
0:13:38 man isn't i think we said
0:13:39 epistemological nounism as well yes um
0:13:41 which is basically to do with truth that
0:13:43 we don't believe that this truth is
0:13:45 i guess you could say maybe closely
0:13:46 linked to skepticism but it's all just
0:13:48 like rejecting the whole category
0:13:54 um and then we also had moral nihilism
0:13:57 yes this is important so what is more
0:13:59 nihilism which is basically just um yeah
0:14:02 once again rejecting more values there's
0:14:04 it's not even like this you're saying
0:14:05 it's right or wrong it just doesn't even
0:14:06 matter there's no such thing as right or
0:14:08 wrong there's no such thing as good or
0:14:09 bad this doesn't have any meaning it
0:14:11 doesn't have any
0:14:12 purpose yeah one might say put this
0:14:13 indifference yeah yeah and what do we
0:14:16 say if someone who's a moral nightist
0:14:18 approaches us
0:14:19 starts speaking about islamic uh law and
0:14:22 stuff
0:14:23 justification to do so
0:14:26 yeah so what do they believe nothing
0:14:29 what do they believe about morality that
0:14:30 has no uh moral value there's no value
0:14:33 to morals it's not objective yeah it's
0:14:35 not objective there's no value or that's
0:14:36 correct
0:14:37 so if if morality is not objective that
0:14:39 has no value then why we're discussing
0:14:41 some non-existent thing that has no
0:14:43 value
0:14:46 basically you're basically borrowing
0:14:47 yourself from having an opinion right
0:14:48 you can't know you can't question this
0:14:50 now yeah yeah you have no ground
0:14:52 especially not objectively yes
0:14:53 especially not i mean you can have your
0:14:55 own subjective opinion
0:14:57 but you know an objective
0:14:59 right you can't
0:15:01 is every atheist anointed no
0:15:04 how
0:15:05 we'll come to this okay we'll come
0:15:06 through
0:15:07 when we when we go into what nihilism is
0:15:09 a little bit
0:15:12 we'll know why it's uh we can't say that
0:15:14 all atheists are nice
0:15:16 now what was the question i asked before
0:15:18 the break
0:15:22 what's the result there being no meaning
0:15:24 yeah what are the implications of there
0:15:25 being no meaning
0:15:28 in life existentialism
0:15:32 nothing has purpose
0:15:33 nothing has purpose what's the
0:15:35 implications of that well can we say for
0:15:37 example there is no difference between a
0:15:39 human soul and a chocolate bar they're
0:15:41 all made out of same things and it's a
0:15:42 rearrangement atom so if you just crush
0:15:44 it if they believe in soul
0:15:46 you know those easter bunnies are used
0:15:47 to crush that and kill someone
0:15:49 on their moral grounds like it's the
0:15:51 same
0:15:52 you can't say oh one one you're taking
0:15:54 life no yeah can you say that yeah you
0:15:56 can say that absolutely yeah what else
0:15:57 can you say well in terms of now if
0:15:59 there's no fixed purpose of life
0:16:04 what do we make of life
0:16:08 what are implications of that
0:16:09 implies that
0:16:11 for example hitler it's like uh his
0:16:13 layer has the same value as a kid
0:16:16 or someone that is
0:16:18 anybody so nazism
0:16:20 is in fact it's interesting you
0:16:22 mentioned hitler because hitler used
0:16:24 nietzsche quite explicitly as we've
0:16:25 mentioned right he mentioned the
0:16:27 ubermensch
0:16:28 and he he thought that nazi ideology
0:16:30 represented
0:16:31 the new kind of morality which was being
0:16:33 invented
0:16:34 you know this he actually explicitly
0:16:36 mentioned ubermensch
0:16:38 the super man
0:16:40 in fact the superman
0:16:42 you know the character superman comes
0:16:44 from this
0:16:46 superman
0:16:47 it comes from this idea that
0:16:49 you've destroyed morality he says god is
0:16:51 dead that's what he said famously and
0:16:53 now
0:16:54 you have become the god
0:16:57 basically you have become
0:16:59 you know
0:17:00 anyway i'm moving on
0:17:02 yeah what
0:17:04 [Laughter]
0:17:07 right
0:17:07 well at least god of your own life
0:17:10 that's it but you your life doesn't have
0:17:12 purpose
0:17:13 that's a really good point yeah it's
0:17:15 really good
0:17:16 it's a good point there's no purpose of
0:17:17 doing anything yeah discussing what and
0:17:20 this is something this is
0:17:21 pessimism is it's a good point we're
0:17:23 going to come to this in a second
0:17:24 because it's not on the slide
0:17:27 so the question is like does life have
0:17:29 an objective purpose obviously would be
0:17:30 answered in the negative does life have
0:17:32 a purpose people can point out will be
0:17:34 answered in the negative but why
0:17:36 nihilism in the first place why would
0:17:38 someone come to a conclusion which is
0:17:39 nihilistic
0:17:40 and we spoke about this we talked about
0:17:42 the in this capability of death we all
0:17:44 know we're gonna die and also that we're
0:17:46 suffering therefore
0:17:48 the idea is and this is nietzsche kept
0:17:49 saying this he said that well because of
0:17:51 these two points because of the inner
0:17:53 capability of death and that we are
0:17:54 suffering
0:17:55 we have had to make something up
0:17:59 psychologically
0:18:00 it's too painful to live a life like
0:18:03 this
0:18:04 therefore we as human beings had to and
0:18:07 as cultures as societies have had to
0:18:09 come together
0:18:11 band together
0:18:12 and make something up
0:18:14 whether it's to do with life after death
0:18:16 whether it's to and this is very very
0:18:18 common atheistic propaganda that's what
0:18:21 they say
0:18:22 what religion is to you
0:18:24 is you need it to make sense of your
0:18:25 life to give meaning to your life in
0:18:27 order to
0:18:28 to to to make sense of pain
0:18:32 okay no problem
0:18:34 these are the uh ideas in fact they say
0:18:37 this is how it emerged okay
0:18:39 this is a very it's not just an
0:18:40 atheistic thing by the way this is very
0:18:42 clear anthropological type of reasoning
0:18:45 if you look at just look at what
0:18:47 anthropologists say about the mayans or
0:18:50 about any ancient civilization
0:18:51 babylonians or i don't know
0:18:54 sumerians or something yeah i'll say
0:18:56 well they've they've invented
0:18:58 the epic of gilgamesh or afromaybe you
0:19:00 know in order to they they've
0:19:02 mythologized
0:19:04 uh the narrative in order to
0:19:06 to make sense
0:19:07 of human suffering sacrifice of death of
0:19:10 pain of because human beings are in a
0:19:13 constant perpetual state of pain
0:19:14 buddhism is predicated on this really
0:19:16 like you know if you look at eastern
0:19:17 traditions
0:19:18 life is suffering this is really the
0:19:20 motto of buddhism
0:19:21 and then because the buddha you know
0:19:24 moving here and then just realized so
0:19:25 what do you do you embrace the suffering
0:19:27 you reach the climax of nirvana
0:19:30 you know this yoga comes
0:19:32 from these kinds of notions the
0:19:34 spiritual yoga not the breathing
0:19:35 techniques and this you know we're
0:19:37 talking about spiritualized yoga you
0:19:39 reach uh nirvana and you know the
0:19:42 where
0:19:43 you the high
0:19:44 you realize what life is about and you
0:19:45 give yourself up to the world and you
0:19:47 know these kind of things
0:19:48 obviously we'll come to this but islam
0:19:50 has a completely different notion to
0:19:51 this
0:19:52 but pessimism
0:19:54 is one of the driving forces of nihilism
0:19:57 what's the point anyway
0:20:00 what's the point anyway this is the
0:20:01 question what's the point anyway you're
0:20:03 all going to die
0:20:04 we're all going to be under the grave
0:20:06 the worms are going to eat our body
0:20:08 and
0:20:09 we are basically walking
0:20:11 worm food
0:20:14 can you imagine hemorrhaging such an
0:20:16 insignificant creature as a worm is
0:20:18 going to feast on our bodies and there's
0:20:20 nothing we can do about it
0:20:22 can you imagine this no but it's a
0:20:24 serious
0:20:25 you know
0:20:33 they don't know but reality pessimist is
0:20:34 looking at the you know the glass half
0:20:36 empty all the time you know
0:20:38 but a nihilist you know
0:20:40 what that has no va that has no meaning
0:20:42 the gas being empty or full
0:20:44 it could be empty it could be full it
0:20:45 could be half empty could be half full
0:20:46 it doesn't matter there's no glass
0:20:50 no they might say the glass is there
0:20:52 yeah but they'll say it has no meaning
0:20:53 the
0:20:54 the the amount of the quantity of liquid
0:20:56 in the glass
0:20:57 is inconsequential to our purpose
0:21:00 or inconsequential generally right
0:21:04 also it's no
0:21:06 it's no coincidence that nihilism or
0:21:08 this idea of meaninglessness
0:21:09 purposelessness
0:21:11 came about at the same time when science
0:21:13 became quite popular now you've got to
0:21:15 remember the scientific revolution in
0:21:17 this country which is actually started
0:21:18 in this country like the scientific
0:21:19 revolution site in the 16th century i
0:21:21 don't want to go into a great you know
0:21:23 historical review of how the scientific
0:21:24 revolution happened
0:21:26 but really i'll just tell you something
0:21:27 quick you know in the in the 1500s the
0:21:29 late 1500s
0:21:31 early 1600s
0:21:34 you know
0:21:35 ballistic kind of weaponry and guns and
0:21:38 stuff became popular and so there was a
0:21:40 need for people to study what was then
0:21:42 referred to as natural philosophy
0:21:44 natural philosophy is actually what
0:21:46 science used to be called back in the
0:21:47 day yeah so in the 16th 17th century
0:21:50 they started doing more and more
0:21:51 experimentation
0:21:52 and this became popular in universities
0:21:54 but obviously you have
0:21:55 galileo and copernicus and these kind of
0:21:57 things happened as well the heliocentric
0:21:59 model was established and some see this
0:22:01 as the beginning of the scientific
0:22:02 revolution
0:22:04 so the scientific revolution
0:22:06 in the 16th and 17th centuries in the
0:22:08 united kingdom and then extensions the
0:22:10 colonial extensions and obviously the
0:22:12 western world in general
0:22:13 uh but cited in the united kingdom or
0:22:16 even like concentrating the united
0:22:17 kingdom much of it was at least
0:22:19 uh
0:22:20 the the scientific revolution
0:22:24 i couldn't say it started in the united
0:22:25 kingdom it was in europe actually to be
0:22:27 fair in science where we could say the
0:22:29 industrial revolution started in the
0:22:30 united kingdom and continued but
0:22:33 the scientific revolution
0:22:34 made science not replace but it was a
0:22:37 competitor it was seen
0:22:39 as a competitor to
0:22:41 to
0:22:42 religious discourse now there are
0:22:44 exaggerations made on this like for
0:22:46 example ronald numbers who is a
0:22:48 historian of science
0:22:50 he referred to
0:22:52 he wrote a book called galileo goes to
0:22:54 court or something like this or trial so
0:22:56 galileo goes to trial
0:22:57 and he talks about the fact that you
0:22:59 know how galileo we usually say you know
0:23:02 that he went against the church and he
0:23:04 done you know he'd done so on scientific
0:23:06 authority where the search was preaching
0:23:08 a scriptural authority and there was a
0:23:09 clash and there's this kind of clash
0:23:11 narrative but the truth of the matter is
0:23:13 there was actually more nuance there and
0:23:15 he describes that in the book you know
0:23:16 galileo goes to uh trial and this i
0:23:19 think is an anthology of different
0:23:20 writers writing in this writing in the
0:23:21 same book but the point is is after
0:23:24 science became important we talked about
0:23:26 logical positivism in the thirties nine
0:23:28 days but in between
0:23:30 you could say that there were
0:23:31 competitions that would happen or
0:23:34 rivalries there was there is some truth
0:23:36 in the idea that some people started to
0:23:37 disband in
0:23:39 uh the the train of
0:23:42 of of religion in favor of a scientific
0:23:45 understanding and then this culminated
0:23:47 into what's referred to as scientism now
0:23:50 scientism is the idea that science can
0:23:52 explain the world
0:23:54 scientism is the idea that science can
0:23:55 explain the world that's you know you
0:23:56 don't require a metaphysic
0:23:59 and we spoke about logical positivism
0:24:01 already they're closely related
0:24:03 scientism and logical positivism
0:24:05 anyone who says that the why question
0:24:08 is uh meaningless
0:24:10 would be a sign scientist in the not in
0:24:13 the center not in the laboratory sense
0:24:14 but
0:24:16 a subscriber of scientism
0:24:18 so scientism or the idea that the rise
0:24:20 of science it contributed to nihilism
0:24:23 because no longer now junior metaphysic
0:24:26 this idea would have been successful in
0:24:28 the islamic world
0:24:30 like
0:24:33 they haven't been successful in the
0:24:34 islamic court so
0:24:36 can we say it has to do with the
0:24:38 with the with
0:24:40 the church
0:24:43 this is very difficult counter factual
0:24:45 history
0:24:47 is always a difficulty like dangerous
0:24:48 and difficult and impossible game to
0:24:50 play sometimes because
0:24:52 it's the fact of the matter is nihilism
0:24:53 has not been successful in the in the
0:24:55 muslim world
0:24:57 that of course there are examples of
0:24:59 nihilists
0:25:01 like for example uh with that famous
0:25:03 shad
0:25:05 i forget his name
0:25:07 but there are names there are names of
0:25:08 uh
0:25:10 you know the famous atheists around and
0:25:13 these guys were responded to in like
0:25:15 they existed at the time you know in the
0:25:17 ambassador times and stuff that people
0:25:18 were quite nihilistic in their flavor
0:25:20 like in the way they operated
0:25:23 but what yani were not nihilists wanted
0:25:25 purposes
0:25:26 they were they were few very few in
0:25:28 number the dominant ethic was there was
0:25:30 a purpose of life there's afterlife
0:25:31 there was you know these kinds of things
0:25:33 that was the muslim world
0:25:35 you know
0:25:38 yeah yeah exactly yeah but never this
0:25:40 kind of ideas
0:25:44 right
0:25:45 this is a good question all right but
0:25:47 don't forget it's not just a scientific
0:25:48 or it's a good question scientific
0:25:50 revolution happened in 16th 17th century
0:25:52 but don't forget that there was a
0:25:53 renaissance happening at the same time
0:25:54 and there's also the enlightenment
0:25:55 period that was happening that happened
0:25:57 in 18th and 19th century in addition to
0:25:59 the industrial revolution so you had
0:26:00 more things happening in the west
0:26:02 they also discovered the new world i
0:26:04 mean
0:26:06 they discovered america basically
0:26:07 newfoundland and this and that place and
0:26:10 discovered
0:26:11 and colonialism reached a height in the
0:26:12 british so there was more components
0:26:14 it's diff that's why it's difficult to
0:26:16 sometimes just compare
0:26:18 if i wanted to i can create a religious
0:26:19 narrative but would just not be an
0:26:21 academic so the muslim world was immune
0:26:23 to it because you know we had the
0:26:24 religion of truth full stop but but that
0:26:27 wouldn't go far in an academic
0:26:28 discussion christianity they they
0:26:31 persecuted the
0:26:33 scientists yeah but that's the islamic
0:26:35 lands
0:26:36 it was open to the idea no but this is
0:26:38 seen in the in the history of science as
0:26:40 a misnomer
0:26:42 is seen as is wrong basically seeing is
0:26:44 seen as a misconception
0:26:46 like
0:26:47 as i mentioned david
0:26:49 david lindbergh and ronald numbers and
0:26:51 these guys who actually like
0:26:53 their living is to to discover this
0:26:55 truth of this kind of stuff or not
0:26:57 they they don't agree with that and and
0:26:58 to be fair they have a good point
0:27:00 because you could say well they pro you
0:27:02 know the christian the catholic church
0:27:04 persecuted there's truth in that there
0:27:06 is truth the catholic church but there's
0:27:08 also truth in the fact that much of it
0:27:09 started with the christian world as well
0:27:11 much of much of the these christians
0:27:14 are the one you know people that derived
0:27:16 inspiration from christian texts or at
0:27:18 least from the bible is that you can
0:27:20 make either case
0:27:22 you can make the case i i i could be
0:27:24 very uncharitable and say well it's
0:27:26 impossible
0:27:27 but that would just be uncharitable i i
0:27:29 you know we have to we have to remain
0:27:31 there we can say well the quran the
0:27:33 quran tells us to
0:27:35 to do science and the bible says don't
0:27:36 do it.
0:27:38 but yeah these are impossible cases to
0:27:40 make you know
0:27:41 it's very difficult cases to make it
0:27:43 there have been
0:27:44 anti-scientific
0:27:46 muslims and they have been
0:27:47 anti-scientific christians
0:27:49 it's the truth and
0:27:51 francis bacon and people at some point
0:27:54 they had to assume because you know
0:27:56 throughout history there were so many um
0:28:00 like the people from the church
0:28:03 that were coming out and
0:28:05 like galileo but they couldn't they
0:28:07 couldn't study more because well i know
0:28:10 the story of galileo the story of
0:28:12 galileo has been refuted by many of the
0:28:14 this is what i want to explain to you
0:28:17 that if we if you come with that
0:28:18 rhetoric well galileo was killed because
0:28:21 he went against the helios first of all
0:28:23 let's look at the bible and see what is
0:28:25 what it is
0:28:27 about the heliocentric model that it
0:28:29 really is repudiated in the bible right
0:28:31 number one number two is
0:28:34 yeah once again it's the story is more
0:28:36 nuanced than that
0:28:38 he wasn't killed like this it wasn't it
0:28:40 wasn't like that and that doesn't
0:28:41 represent all the the christian world at
0:28:43 that time
0:28:44 and once again in academia it's this
0:28:47 narrative is untenable
0:28:49 there are narratives there are
0:28:50 narratives in academia which are now
0:28:52 have become redundant that's one of them
0:28:55 that is the only ones who speak like
0:28:57 that are really new atheists and
0:28:58 propagandists
0:28:59 but if you say well the christian church
0:29:02 or sorry the catholic church they they
0:29:04 uh they attacked
0:29:06 you know the
0:29:07 the the the scientists
0:29:10 what what what a sweeping statement to
0:29:11 make
0:29:12 like honestly
0:29:13 when people make statements like that
0:29:15 they just don't they have not read the
0:29:17 books
0:29:19 it's a difficult statement to make just
0:29:20 like saying well the christian world uh
0:29:22 they they punished all the jews
0:29:24 you know all the muslim world punishment
0:29:26 yeah the church but just be aware of
0:29:28 these statements yeah because whenever
0:29:30 you hear people talk like that you know
0:29:32 where the christian world is a 2000 year
0:29:33 old uh thing you know so many countries
0:29:36 so many different empires so many
0:29:38 different we really need to be specific
0:29:40 because that stuff will work if you're
0:29:42 speaking to
0:29:44 a layperson possibly that is already
0:29:46 indoctrinated with that things but it
0:29:48 will not work if you're speaking to an
0:29:50 academic
0:29:52 yeah
0:29:53 i'm just saying that yeah because there
0:29:54 was the social environment
0:29:57 where the uh the church so there's no
0:30:00 science generally in europe yeah
0:30:02 compared to islamic war when this when
0:30:04 these things uh arise
0:30:06 yeah it's like um all the other people
0:30:09 that were kind of trapped in the
0:30:11 ideologies they had something to
0:30:14 um something to follow or something to
0:30:16 like
0:30:17 i don't know if that makes sense i get
0:30:18 where you i understand what you're
0:30:19 saying but
0:30:21 it's known as the church i'm just saying
0:30:22 that the social environment i understand
0:30:24 this but what i want to explain again is
0:30:26 that there were different things that
0:30:28 were happening in europe at the same
0:30:30 time
0:30:31 the renaissance period was happening at
0:30:32 this very similar time to scientific
0:30:34 revolution
0:30:35 and then after that you had the
0:30:36 industrial revolution
0:30:37 and that happened at a very similar time
0:30:39 as the enlightenment period these are
0:30:40 four things you need to know about
0:30:42 you had wars in between you had the
0:30:43 colonial period you had expansion you
0:30:45 had finding of new lands you had all
0:30:47 kinds of things that happened in europe
0:30:49 and what i'm saying is
0:30:52 it's it's more complex than just to say
0:30:54 well the muslim world resisted it and
0:30:55 the christian world didn't
0:30:57 because the truth is
0:30:59 the muslim world didn't have the
0:31:00 equivalent of the enlightenment period
0:31:03 for better or for worse i mean for
0:31:05 better or for worse well i didn't have
0:31:06 the you know the sprouting up
0:31:08 of
0:31:09 five or ten major
0:31:11 ideologies which we've all covered today
0:31:13 you know
0:31:14 uh liberalism and
0:31:16 some of the some of these ideologies
0:31:17 they happened they came about in the
0:31:19 alignment period when you have
0:31:21 liberalism
0:31:22 became in the 60s just by you know his
0:31:25 important point in the 60s most
0:31:26 sociologists would argue it became a
0:31:28 replacement for religion
0:31:31 it became a replacement for religion so
0:31:33 this is another thing right so because
0:31:34 liberalism became a replacement for
0:31:36 religion then you're not just leaving
0:31:38 off
0:31:39 religion for science you're leaving off
0:31:40 religion for science and liberalism
0:31:43 so it fulfills the moral element
0:31:45 liberalism follows the moral element for
0:31:46 example or secular liberalism or marxism
0:31:49 whatever ism right it gives you the
0:31:53 the the religious element that you need
0:31:54 the moral element and then you've got
0:31:56 you know scientism or science
0:31:59 that fulfills the you know the
0:32:01 cosmological element so you can make
0:32:03 sense of the world and now you've got
0:32:04 morality and you don't need now the full
0:32:06 replacement has been done
0:32:08 but the reason why the muslim world
0:32:09 hasn't seen the same levels of
0:32:11 convergent converter conversion to
0:32:13 atheism agnosticism
0:32:15 or
0:32:16 other isms is because we don't we did
0:32:19 not have the equivalent to
0:32:21 the enlightenment period or the
0:32:22 renaissance period or even the
0:32:24 industrial revolution like
0:32:25 there's lots of things we just didn't
0:32:26 have
0:32:28 so
0:32:29 yeah but maybe that's the you can you
0:32:31 can of course we would argue you know
0:32:33 but we have to argue that on his own
0:32:34 merit
0:32:35 now we move on to the second uh bit
0:32:40 nietzsche so as we've mentioned he says
0:32:43 that we need religion to fill meaning
0:32:45 it's a psychological need
0:32:46 now you will notice obviously this is no
0:32:48 argument against religion
0:32:50 in fact it's the genetic fallacy
0:32:52 it is this is called the genetic fallacy
0:32:55 the genetic fallacy is to say something
0:32:56 is wrong
0:32:58 if it's made in those terms obviously he
0:33:00 was very careful nietzsche was not going
0:33:01 to say
0:33:02 uh you know you you made religion
0:33:04 therefore religion is wrong or something
0:33:06 he doesn't say like that he's very
0:33:06 careful philosopher
0:33:08 however
0:33:10 if and what we're seeing today in new
0:33:12 atheist rhetoric is you guys need
0:33:14 religion in order to make sense of the
0:33:16 world therefore religion is false or
0:33:19 therefore the religion is man-made
0:33:21 this construction is fallacious it's the
0:33:24 genetic fallacy because
0:33:26 first and foremost
0:33:27 you don't know for sure where religion
0:33:28 has been made or where it's been
0:33:30 produced yeah and secondly even if it
0:33:32 was produced by whatever it was produced
0:33:34 where you think it was produced doesn't
0:33:35 make it true or false
0:33:38 just
0:33:39 outlining the origin of something
0:33:40 doesn't mean this makes it false okay
0:33:43 so
0:33:46 he mentions and this is very interesting
0:33:48 actually nietzsche himself says it is
0:33:50 true there could be a metaphysical world
0:33:51 the absolute possibility of it is hardly
0:33:53 to be disputed so when it came to
0:33:56 metaphysics and you know the after world
0:33:58 and all this kind of thing nietzsche
0:33:59 wasn't saying there was no afterwards he
0:34:00 said it's true not possible you know
0:34:02 shrugging his shoulders
0:34:04 you can't refute it so he had like very
0:34:06 much an agnostic position and this is
0:34:08 where they kind of end off you know
0:34:12 and he says every belief um
0:34:15 every considering something true
0:34:17 is necessarily false because there is
0:34:19 simply no true world
0:34:20 so
0:34:21 it would seem that these two statements
0:34:23 conflict with one another
0:34:25 in one on the one hand he's saying
0:34:27 there's no such thing as a true world
0:34:30 and the other thing is it's possible
0:34:31 there could
0:34:32 be i mean
0:34:34 on the face of his contradiction on the
0:34:36 face of it is a contradiction
0:34:38 and but then you could argue that he was
0:34:41 just
0:34:42 and this is what his defenders would say
0:34:44 his defenders would say that he meant it
0:34:46 in a way that
0:34:48 there isn't we don't know for sure it
0:34:50 was more of an epistemological claim
0:34:52 but the truth of the matter is he was
0:34:54 just rambling uh he was rambling if you
0:34:55 look at his book try read his books try
0:34:57 and read nature's go home today and
0:34:59 write the right beyond good and evil uh
0:35:01 pdf or gay the gay science you know pdf
0:35:04 one of his books just read them and see
0:35:06 how he writes he doesn't even organize
0:35:08 his
0:35:08 you know things into paragraphs and it's
0:35:10 not easily it's not intelligible it's
0:35:12 not easily
0:35:13 followed but if you if you unencrypt it
0:35:16 you'll realize actually this guy is
0:35:18 very clever yeah he he knows what he's
0:35:20 saying
0:35:22 but you know you need someone to kind of
0:35:24 do
0:35:26 you know it's it's difficult to
0:35:27 understand what he's trying to say now
0:35:30 let's contrast this with the islamic
0:35:31 model right
0:35:33 and
0:35:34 this is what we do you know let's let's
0:35:36 think about the question of purpose in
0:35:38 islam
0:35:39 i always speak to the person next year
0:35:40 for three four minutes
0:35:42 and
0:35:43 what do you think obviously there's
0:35:44 going to be some easy things but i want
0:35:45 you to i'm going to tell you to focus on
0:35:46 what in fact here just so you don't
0:35:49 go astray
0:35:52 i want you to think about islam islam's
0:35:54 stance on pessimism and or optimism
0:35:57 the reality of the world according to
0:35:59 islam and also i want you to answer a
0:36:00 question which is very important
0:36:01 question
0:36:02 of mental health in islam
0:36:04 because this is very depressing just
0:36:06 going through what nihilis believe but a
0:36:08 question of depression itself what does
0:36:10 islam say about it
0:36:12 this is important for especially for
0:36:14 dawah for for discussions or for
0:36:16 pastoral purposes these three things
0:36:19 because we can link that
0:36:20 with uh what we spoke about today so
0:36:23 just to recap it's all of the final
0:36:25 slide
0:36:26 but we talk about the purpose of life in
0:36:28 islam optimism and pessimism in islam
0:36:31 uh the truth of the world what the world
0:36:33 is and obviously
0:36:34 and finally we said um
0:36:36 mental health the idea of depression how
0:36:38 do you what is it what is depression
0:36:41 how is uh can
0:36:42 can we be depressed as muslims you know
0:36:46 questions like that is it wrong to
0:36:47 believe is it a sign of weak faith you
0:36:49 know you know
0:36:50 anyway
0:36:51 look over it and uh let me know
0:36:56 so what was the first thing we talked
0:36:57 about the purpose of life in islam uh
0:37:00 mental health is the last thing we're
0:37:01 talking about
0:37:02 and this we have to get this right by
0:37:04 the way
0:37:05 you know as muslims as people that are
0:37:07 living in society not just for ourselves
0:37:09 but for our family members
0:37:11 mental health is you know very important
0:37:13 to to understand the islamic position
0:37:15 because i think people misappropriate or
0:37:17 misunderstand the islamic position
0:37:19 quite regularly and in fact their
0:37:21 misunderstanding of it can create major
0:37:24 problems for muslims in this uh
0:37:26 in this world and in fact it can cause
0:37:28 people to leave islam
0:37:30 it's
0:37:32 i have had conversations with mache
0:37:40 honestly and some of them don't even
0:37:42 believe in it so i say there's no such
0:37:44 thing as depression and you know stuff
0:37:46 like that it really just like for me
0:37:48 it's ignorance all that is this is
0:37:51 ignorance and if you
0:37:54 will come to the air very good yeah
0:37:56 well the point is is
0:37:59 when you come with that kind of attitude
0:38:01 to someone who's in pain
0:38:04 it can really
0:38:06 hurt them however on the other hand
0:38:08 there is that i would call it the
0:38:10 liberal extreme as well
0:38:12 the liberal extreme is everything that
0:38:13 everything is so painful everything is
0:38:16 it's like you're touching a prick you
0:38:17 know we're talking about it in fact i
0:38:19 want you know the people that pulled out
0:38:21 of uh sports events and depression and
0:38:23 these kind of things you know
0:38:24 we spoke about that and that's it's
0:38:26 almost like you're celebrated for for
0:38:27 being
0:38:28 a coward or a loser
0:38:30 you know or something yeah some people
0:38:32 that they they play that card too much
0:38:36 your pain is the center of all pain
0:38:38 is that the other extreme is the other
0:38:40 extreme what about you
0:38:42 and just add to that you know in in
0:38:43 counseling and we spoke about this you
0:38:45 know counselling which is based on
0:38:47 psychoanalytic principles a lot of the
0:38:49 time they will they will
0:38:51 allow you
0:38:53 to keep talking about how
0:38:55 how big your pain is
0:38:57 and and they will not even stand and say
0:38:59 well this and let's compare it with this
0:39:00 and us
0:39:01 well we know from the prophetic models
0:39:03 we come to maybe when we talk about
0:39:04 mental health that the prophet muhammad
0:39:07 he was he he used to mention
0:39:09 the the torture of people that came
0:39:11 before
0:39:13 he used to to put things in perspective
0:39:15 the idea of actually and this goes to
0:39:17 nihilism a little bit right
0:39:19 in the grand scheme of things how big is
0:39:21 your pain really
0:39:23 you know because the idea of making your
0:39:25 pain too big how's that gonna that could
0:39:27 be counterintuitive
0:39:28 yeah you sit in there for 80
0:39:30 percent of the time on a chair which is
0:39:33 the counseling approach of the
0:39:34 psychoanalysts
0:39:36 talking cure they call it and sometimes
0:39:37 it can be a talking
0:39:40 a disease
0:39:41 because you're making yourself sick by
0:39:43 just sitting there
0:39:44 and just you know i've got this and that
0:39:46 problem and the idea is
0:39:48 psychoanalytically you should be solving
0:39:49 your own problems coming to term with
0:39:51 your own things but actually you could
0:39:52 be just triggering yourself triggering
0:39:54 yourself you could be making yourself
0:39:56 your pain worse
0:39:57 and we consider these two things as
0:39:59 failures
0:40:00 there are two failed approaches the
0:40:02 correct islamic approach and there's
0:40:03 there should be good work that's been
0:40:05 done and there is actually something
0:40:06 that is being done already is to combine
0:40:08 the islamic model and there is an
0:40:10 islamic model
0:40:11 with some something of the
0:40:13 psychoanalytic model
0:40:14 people that are specialists in
0:40:16 psychology psychiatry have had years in
0:40:18 the field should actually step up to the
0:40:20 plate with these things and i don't
0:40:22 think that
0:40:23 it's been done in the way that we should
0:40:25 have done it you know honestly
0:40:26 but anyway
0:40:29 moving on
0:40:30 the first thing what is the purpose of
0:40:31 life in islam
0:40:37 yeah yeah worship allah
0:40:39 serve is a bit weak i wouldn't use the
0:40:41 word surf i would use serve you can
0:40:43 serve your parents you can serve
0:40:45 but worship
0:40:46 what is now
0:40:48 this might be a very difficult question
0:40:49 what is worship
0:40:52 i think when we talk about worship
0:40:54 a lot of people break it down to the
0:40:56 first thing that comes to head is salah
0:40:58 like five times a day
0:41:00 um when allah says for example we did
0:41:02 not create mankind except to worship us
0:41:05 is that it's um talking about like i was
0:41:07 talking to a this this guy came to
0:41:09 interview me in the park and he was like
0:41:11 okay you know let's put it down to us
0:41:13 let's talk about you know the day-to-day
0:41:14 activity you know like football i said
0:41:17 why is islam out of that like every time
0:41:19 i had the conversation i was trying to
0:41:20 bring allah into it it's not that he was
0:41:22 taking allah out of it but he
0:41:24 had like um as if there's his religious
0:41:26 duties and there's your day-to-day life
0:41:28 and i was like
0:41:30 and every time i mentioned for example
0:41:32 something else or like eating going out
0:41:34 holiday whatever every time but allah
0:41:36 into it says if he was saying look okay
0:41:37 we'll talk about that later and i said i
0:41:38 think he didn't really understand well
0:41:40 the point i was trying to make was
0:41:42 all of these elements allah is in there
0:41:43 for example before we say bismillah
0:41:45 that's the form of ibadah you know
0:41:47 everything that we do in our life from
0:41:49 intimacy to going to the toilet to
0:41:52 which feet that we enter the toilet with
0:41:54 it is all a form of ibadah
0:41:57 that's what i would say i don't know
0:41:58 what he would say but um about how funny
0:42:00 more fundamentally what is worship
0:42:03 it's that it's when allah says that he
0:42:04 did not create us with anything except
0:42:06 to worship him is for example if i'm not
0:42:09 doing that i'll be doing something else
0:42:11 so i have to be in constant remembrance
0:42:12 of allah not necessarily saying
0:42:14 so how would you define it
0:42:17 your whole way is it's a way of life
0:42:19 everything that you implement in your
0:42:20 life we have something like
0:42:22 we are told when before we eat we say
0:42:24 say bismillah eat with your right hand
0:42:26 these are all ibadah
0:42:28 but you're giving examples of it
0:42:30 what do you mean
0:42:31 no
0:42:32 the the the question is you've given
0:42:34 examples of uh of worship yeah okay but
0:42:37 what is worship
0:42:40 so watching god
0:42:42 by doing what god is
0:42:45 god told us to do
0:42:48 so what if so when your parents tell you
0:42:50 what to do are you worshiping your
0:42:52 parents
0:42:53 yeah i'm not worshiping like i'm sorry
0:42:57 no no being obedient to them is being
0:42:59 obedient
0:43:01 but if it's just listening to what
0:43:03 someone has to do if you have an
0:43:04 employer in a job and he tells you what
0:43:06 to do then you are you worshiping them
0:43:09 no but god just god doesn't just say
0:43:12 stuff to do but like
0:43:13 how to worship what's good
0:43:16 yes what about submitting
0:43:19 household
0:43:20 and whatever
0:43:23 because it's the whole fundamental thing
0:43:25 is submitted
0:43:26 submitting yeah
0:43:29 in what way
0:43:30 in every way between what we're
0:43:31 everywhere
0:43:33 and you don't pick and choose you know
0:43:34 it's like allah says you don't pick from
0:43:35 the book like oh i like this i don't
0:43:36 know you submit fully
0:43:38 i think you're onto something i'm always
0:43:39 on to something
0:43:40 [Laughter]
0:43:42 but you want to add to it
0:43:45 oh you wanna might go what is worship
0:43:47 even tamiya has the definition
0:43:49 resulted
0:43:50 he said this
0:43:51 complete submissiveness and love
0:43:53 that was the definition
0:43:55 that's one of his definitions yeah he's
0:43:57 it
0:43:58 is the other definition that he had was
0:44:00 that and this is the one that ibraheem
0:44:01 took was uh
0:44:03 anything that pleases allah
0:44:05 anything that he pleases him then to
0:44:07 love anything that pleases him and to
0:44:09 not not love anything that he he just
0:44:12 doesn't
0:44:13 like
0:44:14 this please but the thing is that these
0:44:16 you can you could
0:44:19 manipulate these uh definitions in a
0:44:21 sense i mean in a sense like
0:44:24 another very common definition is
0:44:35 which is like the the the pinnacle of uh
0:44:37 love and the pinnacle of
0:44:40 submissiveness or humility and
0:44:42 and uh and or and fear
0:44:46 but then if someone if someone dies and
0:44:48 they have an infatuation with a woman
0:44:51 they love her so much are they
0:44:52 committing shirk by doing that
0:45:00 where it goes to the boundaries of
0:45:01 where you are that you die for that
0:45:03 person yeah but would it be because
0:45:04 this person going to hell now
0:45:08 without the liner but it doesn't say he
0:45:10 doesn't ever mention it right i don't
0:45:11 think anyone does yeah yeah no so
0:45:15 the point to be honest with you it's
0:45:17 controversial and i think abdulbar
0:45:19 mentions this the the definition of
0:45:21 i know it sounds very fundamental right
0:45:23 but
0:45:24 how are you not worshiping it
0:45:26 uh not die for it
0:45:29 suicide if you're ready to take your
0:45:31 life or like well like your mother's
0:45:32 doing it for a child if that person
0:45:33 leaves
0:45:34 if that's if the mother covers the child
0:45:36 because she wants to protect it
0:45:38 i'm not talking about that why not
0:45:39 no because that is you can do it for the
0:45:41 sake of allah
0:45:42 not by you know that if you're not if
0:45:44 say for example she's not doing a
0:45:45 foreseeable life is now she worshipping
0:45:47 the child
0:45:49 what if she's willing to die for it
0:45:51 yeah no one would say that by the way
0:45:55 no one will say that
0:45:57 yeah
0:46:00 have it comprehensive because especially
0:46:01 if someone asks you like it was the
0:46:02 purpose of my life yeah it says like
0:46:04 having the appropriate relationship with
0:46:06 allah like the relationship that you
0:46:08 have allah should be as if that you
0:46:11 should strive to have that relationship
0:46:12 as it should be i'm just kind of
0:46:13 thinking in terms of like
0:46:14 perfection of islam being
0:46:16 like
0:46:17 it's so related to what everyone was
0:46:18 saying it's like being in every moment
0:46:20 you're kind of present of that fact that
0:46:22 like in your life you're trying to get
0:46:23 closer to allah you're trying to you
0:46:25 know get closer because you recognize
0:46:26 that that's really like the essence of
0:46:28 what existence is and that's what yeah
0:46:29 so now you've moved on to what the
0:46:30 purpose of life is right but we had the
0:46:32 fundamental issue which is what how do
0:46:34 you define worship because it's worship
0:46:36 god
0:46:37 and the
0:46:38 the idea is is that worship is a
0:46:40 controversial the definition of worship
0:46:42 is controversial in islam
0:46:44 it's actually controversial
0:46:45 people don't realize how controversial
0:46:47 it is now all of these definitions that
0:46:49 we have even tame me as one and the
0:46:51 other one you know
0:46:55 they all have some elements of truth but
0:46:56 it's difficult to the thing is it's
0:46:59 difficult to
0:47:00 isolate
0:47:02 such an action as worship in a few lines
0:47:06 that's how deep it is actually
0:47:09 and they've been saying himself he said
0:47:10 you can't in his book
0:47:14 he mentions that you know
0:47:15 a tariff like a something which is a
0:47:17 definition
0:47:19 or had he called
0:47:20 he calls it yeah
0:47:22 as um
0:47:24 you can't really have a hud which is uh
0:47:27 all-inclusive or definition which is all
0:47:29 inclusive now clearly this would be the
0:47:32 case even more so with something like
0:47:33 worship
0:47:34 so we know the individual associations
0:47:36 of worship
0:47:37 but a a definition which which totally
0:47:40 explains all aspects of worship i
0:47:43 haven't come across
0:47:45 a definition which does that
0:47:47 and i know that might sound but we know
0:47:49 what a worshiper looks like
0:47:50 a worshiper is somebody
0:47:52 who is in
0:47:54 because that what is the word in arabic
0:47:57 it's slave that's what it means it means
0:47:59 someone is in full submission
0:48:01 to
0:48:02 to whoever it may be in fact
0:48:05 and the level of submissiveness
0:48:08 that the slave must have to allah
0:48:11 is ultimate but also voluntary
0:48:13 these are important things
0:48:15 like the difference between human
0:48:17 slavery and child slavery and the
0:48:19 slavery to god
0:48:21 is that the slavery to god has to be
0:48:22 voluntary you have to do it yourself you
0:48:24 have to want to do that you don't you're
0:48:25 not doing that by force
0:48:27 so it's
0:48:29 a bit of an irony that you free yourself
0:48:30 from being completely enslaved
0:48:33 you know we were talked about in the
0:48:34 that's the islamic paradigm
0:48:38 we talked before about russo's famous
0:48:40 quote that you're born free and
0:48:42 everywhere in chains
0:48:45 islam would say you're never
0:48:46 you're never born free
0:48:48 you're never born free
0:48:50 you're everywhere in chains now the only
0:48:52 thing islam would say is you decide what
0:48:54 change you want to be in
0:48:57 you know and you can either be in the
0:48:59 chains of unworthy
0:49:02 ones or you'll be on the chains of the
0:49:04 worthy one the one that's worthy of
0:49:06 worship
0:49:07 and we talked about the fact that god is
0:49:08 worthy of worship that's the reason why
0:49:10 we worship god because he's worthy of
0:49:12 worship you know
0:49:13 and the the verse which i think is most
0:49:16 uh illustrative of this reality is the
0:49:18 one in zumar
0:49:20 well
0:49:22 uh he he talks about
0:49:25 the the the
0:49:28 uh
0:49:43 that a man who has many different slave
0:49:46 owners or a man who has one slave owner
0:49:49 hell yesterday are these two the same
0:49:52 alhamdulillah that they says that praise
0:49:56 be to god to you know the point is is
0:49:58 that you decide what chains you want
0:50:00 it's not that it's an illusion to think
0:50:02 that we're free in any sense
0:50:04 we we are in the islamic model says
0:50:06 you've got you are born in chains
0:50:09 but you only decide what chains you want
0:50:11 to be in
0:50:12 and we say that
0:50:14 voluntarily if you decide to have a
0:50:16 relationship with the old mighty one
0:50:19 which is of full submission
0:50:21 then that way that's that type of
0:50:23 slavery and it is a slavery it's
0:50:26 basically slavery would liberate you
0:50:29 that's the only slavery that would
0:50:30 liberate you
0:50:32 and that's that's the only slavery by
0:50:33 the way that you can have
0:50:36 the only one worthy of that type of
0:50:37 slavery is
0:50:38 god not human beings
0:50:41 there's no other human being or creation
0:50:45 that there's no obedience to the
0:50:46 creation in the disobedience of the
0:50:48 creator
0:50:49 that's the purpose of life therefore
0:50:52 from the islamic paradigm is a total
0:50:54 enslavement to the one who created you
0:50:56 and the one who maintains you
0:50:57 because free will is an illusion
0:51:00 uh well you do have free will but
0:51:03 the idea that you can do something
0:51:05 outside of the dominion of god that's
0:51:06 illusory
0:51:08 so there's there are some inter
0:51:10 interesting uh
0:51:11 points of comparison between nihilism
0:51:13 and islam
0:51:15 and the fact that we do have a
0:51:16 deconstructionist idea as well
0:51:19 you know there's no god worthy of
0:51:21 worship except for allah but instead of
0:51:23 making ourselves
0:51:24 mention
0:51:26 you know we we we designate that or we
0:51:29 defer that or confer that
0:51:31 to the almighty one that's worthy of
0:51:34 worship
0:51:34 so that's the first thing the second
0:51:36 thing we talked about was what
0:51:38 the reality of this world
0:51:41 so what did you have to say about that
0:51:44 what does islam say about the reality of
0:51:45 this world
0:51:54 i actually said that it's quite ironic
0:51:56 because you could say there's even some
0:51:57 sort of similarities in the sense of
0:51:58 what's what the nihilists are saying
0:52:00 because i like from islamic standpoint
0:52:02 you
0:52:06 just like you know it's just kind of
0:52:08 fleeting enjoyment it's this kind of
0:52:10 base this doesn't really have any proper
0:52:12 route to it but it's it's
0:52:14 that approach to the world is understood
0:52:16 within
0:52:17 the the idea that there is an ahra
0:52:20 and so it's not that this world is this
0:52:23 world has less meaning but that's
0:52:24 because
0:52:25 the next life has more meaning and so
0:52:28 it's it is really significant and that's
0:52:30 kind of how it works that's exactly how
0:52:32 it works and so what it's a good summary
0:52:34 is anyone have anything add to that
0:52:37 yeah so the idea that this world it's
0:52:39 real it's a real world but because
0:52:42 of its comparative insignificance
0:52:46 you know
0:52:47 with the hereafter
0:52:48 it's
0:52:49 it's almost like a drop that's falling
0:52:51 from the sky
0:52:53 so this idea of scale is is a point of
0:52:55 comparison when we compare the dunya to
0:52:57 the
0:52:58 the world this this life with the
0:53:00 hereafter and we realize how
0:53:01 insignificant it is
0:53:03 but just i want the implication here is
0:53:05 actually quite important
0:53:06 and it might just sound like a
0:53:07 straightforward thing to say but imagine
0:53:09 you are
0:53:10 on
0:53:11 a deathbed
0:53:13 for a second just imagine
0:53:15 now i'm not saying therefore islam is
0:53:17 true this is not an argument for islam
0:53:18 by the way i'm just saying the
0:53:19 implication the epistle or the
0:53:22 existential implication is quite
0:53:23 important
0:53:24 if you are about to die
0:53:26 you have been diagnosed with some kind
0:53:28 of killer disease
0:53:30 and um
0:53:32 you have been told that you have
0:53:34 some months to live some weeks to live
0:53:35 some days to live
0:53:37 and you are a nihilist
0:53:39 so you think that
0:53:41 well
0:53:42 i'm gonna it's no point anyway
0:53:45 you have maybe you have family members
0:53:46 that you love maybe you have friends
0:53:48 that you love
0:53:50 all of that is actually pointless
0:53:51 because you are just going to your death
0:53:53 in your life are the same like the fact
0:53:55 that you're alive and the fact that your
0:53:56 death is no meaningfulness in either of
0:53:58 those two things both of those two
0:54:00 things are the same
0:54:02 just just imagine for a second what kind
0:54:04 of frame of mind you would have
0:54:09 sometimes this is more important and
0:54:11 more influential than arguments
0:54:13 just think for a second imagine how you
0:54:14 would like put yourself in that position
0:54:16 how would you feel there's nothing
0:54:18 that's going to happen i'm going to
0:54:19 cease to exist
0:54:21 and potentially that will be better
0:54:22 because
0:54:23 me ceasing to exist maybe it will
0:54:24 alleviate me from some suffering
0:54:28 my suffering has meant it's been
0:54:29 fruitless and has meant nothing has been
0:54:31 in vain
0:54:32 and my death is in vain and my life
0:54:34 isn't there everything is in vain
0:54:43 they act like like there's nothing there
0:54:45 so i mean they act like normal
0:54:48 no no i can assure you they don't feel
0:54:50 normal you know this maybe we would say
0:54:52 about it yeah
0:54:54 it's it's a very depressing it's an
0:54:55 extremely depressing thing yeah i have
0:54:58 um
0:54:59 our friend that is working
0:55:01 we are all people
0:55:05 yeah he's 98 and he's
0:55:08 you can see he's about to like
0:55:10 pass you know to next
0:55:12 and
0:55:13 he has the same routine
0:55:16 as you used to have
0:55:18 back in his 50s or 40s nothing has
0:55:22 changed same mentality same routine
0:55:24 everything is the same sometimes you can
0:55:25 have the same routine but you can have
0:55:27 different conceptions and thoughts
0:55:29 you see maybe
0:55:30 like you know like the truth of the
0:55:32 matter is like you know this is an
0:55:34 existential problem like if someone is
0:55:36 about to die and
0:55:38 everyone people might have different
0:55:40 reactions but just put yourself in that
0:55:41 position
0:55:43 compare that with a position that says
0:55:45 actually there's something that's going
0:55:45 to happen afterwards and this is this
0:55:48 has been insignificant however the next
0:55:49 chapter
0:55:51 like
0:55:53 just just put yourself in that position
0:55:54 like life is like if you believe in
0:55:56 hereafter it's like life is just about
0:55:58 to begin yes yeah instead of life is
0:56:00 just about to end yes yeah and not just
0:56:03 that but my pain has been meaningful now
0:56:04 i'm going to be rested
0:56:06 it's
0:56:07 so this moves on to our next point which
0:56:09 is optimism and pessimism so what does
0:56:11 islam say about about that do you have
0:56:12 any idea
0:56:15 i think um i don't know if it's a hadith
0:56:17 but it talks about the bird um so one
0:56:20 side is
0:56:21 mercy
0:56:23 yeah so um one side is hope and fear
0:56:25 open fear and you need to have both
0:56:27 because if you have too much hope
0:56:29 um this will lead to false hope which
0:56:31 will lead you to go astray if you have
0:56:33 too much despair then obviously we
0:56:35 should discuss some without creams when
0:56:38 allah says you know only
0:56:40 those who disbelieve the spell last
0:56:42 mercy so it can both can lead to a
0:56:44 disaster but you know if you have a
0:56:46 balance of fear and hope it will keep
0:56:48 you balanced but pessimism is not fair
0:56:51 it's okay
0:56:52 so
0:56:53 pessimism yes
0:56:55 pessimism is the opposite of optimism
0:56:57 so but that's true somebody thinks we
0:56:59 have a lot of people who speak to which
0:57:00 they're like you know i'm gonna go hell
0:57:02 fire i've done this right like there's
0:57:04 no hope in them they're pessimists they
0:57:06 don't see any like but jannah allah's
0:57:07 mercy no allah won't forgive me
0:57:10 what's the difference pessimism or
0:57:13 having an expectation which is negative
0:57:16 or having expectations which are
0:57:17 negative not necessarily expectations
0:57:19 which are possible
0:57:20 because if there was a realism you know
0:57:23 it would be like oh this is possibly the
0:57:25 case this is not the case yeah
0:57:26 like the half
0:57:28 half empty half full scenario if you're
0:57:30 looking at the heart the cup half empty
0:57:32 you're looking at the bad aspect of it
0:57:34 or the negative aspect of it exactly
0:57:35 that's that's exactly what's happening
0:57:37 here they're looking at one aspect which
0:57:39 is hellfire but they're totally ignoring
0:57:42 paradise allah's mercy
0:57:43 you know and allah says
0:57:46 that allies to his servants how he
0:57:48 thinks of him that's a good habit so so
0:57:50 yes that is more to incline it to
0:57:53 to be optimist but then again
0:57:56 it's it's it's it's both i think i think
0:57:58 you have to have the balance of both
0:58:00 either two optimists or two pessimists
0:58:02 so so basically there is actually hadith
0:58:04 on this um
0:58:06 the hadith
0:58:08 the arabic word uses
0:58:12 which means optimism
0:58:14 and
0:58:15 the
0:58:16 the clear message in islam is that you
0:58:18 have to be optimistic
0:58:20 that's a very clear message the the the
0:58:22 the the hadith
0:58:24 so the prophet said that you know and
0:58:26 fell as part of the religion or that
0:58:27 optimism is part of the religion
0:58:30 and some scholars have said like for
0:58:31 example if you make a dua and it starts
0:58:33 raining outside
0:58:35 you should take that as a good sign
0:58:38 because it's fair it's obvious you
0:58:40 should be optimistic you shouldn't be
0:58:42 looking at negative aspects and things
0:58:44 like that and the hadith you mentioned
0:58:45 is actually one of the key i'm the
0:58:46 hadith foundation hadi's and the um
0:58:52 i am as my servant thinks of me
0:58:55 so let him think good of me this is
0:58:56 hadith says it doesn't say the lame
0:58:58 thing bad is everything good once again
0:59:01 you know another thing in the quran is
0:59:02 very clear which is when the prophet and
0:59:06 abu bakr says when they were migrating
0:59:08 and prophet was a wanted man he's a
0:59:10 fugitive and they were going from mecca
0:59:12 to medina and then he went to harthou
0:59:15 into that particular cave
0:59:17 and the the people the assailants or the
0:59:20 ones who wanted to catch the prophet
0:59:21 they went into the cave
0:59:24 and abu bakr got
0:59:26 had a reaction to that
0:59:28 and then the quran ruled some ayat
0:59:34 it says don't be
0:59:37 don't be sad allah is with us
0:59:40 now bear in mind it doesn't say let's
0:59:43 don't be scared because you'd expect him
0:59:45 to be scared
0:59:46 you know the guys just come in they're
0:59:47 going to kill him and this and that
0:59:49 but the quran states
0:59:52 that the prophet state he's quoting
0:59:54 allah is quoting the prophet saying that
0:59:56 don't
0:59:57 be sad allah is with us
0:59:59 so this is this is move the movement
1:00:02 towards optimism in other words even in
1:00:03 the most dire situation
1:00:06 where you
1:00:07 people are literally at the doorstep
1:00:09 with swords and you're outnumbered
1:00:12 don't be sad in that situation
1:00:15 meaning you have to be as optimistic as
1:00:17 possible even in that situation where it
1:00:18 seems like there's nothing nothing left
1:00:20 and this is the attitude that the sahaba
1:00:23 took which allowed them to win wars
1:00:25 you can't have you cannot win wars you
1:00:27 cannot win fight and you cannot win life
1:00:29 unless you have confidence and you have
1:00:31 optimism it's
1:00:32 it would be very difficult to do that
1:00:35 so the the islamic message is yes of
1:00:37 course you have to have hope and fear
1:00:39 hope and fear is good is
1:00:41 disincentivizing sometimes
1:00:43 it's important
1:00:44 but you should never
1:00:46 have pessimism
1:00:48 pessimism looking at things in a
1:00:49 negative manner
1:00:52 not not realism or or fear
1:00:55 if you think this bad thing is going to
1:00:56 happen to me this bad thing is going to
1:00:58 happen
1:00:59 this actually is
1:01:01 against islam
1:01:04 it's against islam islam is an
1:01:06 optimistic religion
1:01:07 which means
1:01:09 you you always have to think the best is
1:01:10 going to happen
1:01:12 and in fact that's
1:01:13 mentioned
1:01:16 he mentions uh when you're making dua
1:01:19 your supplication he mentions six
1:01:20 conditions for the diet to be accepted
1:01:23 it's application to be accepted
1:01:24 and one of them is you have to believe
1:01:27 that allah will do it
1:01:29 and he says
1:01:31 that you have to you have to be
1:01:32 consistent in supplicating like i'll
1:01:34 just come once allah do it for me you
1:01:36 have to be sure you know
1:01:39 you know you talked about when they run
1:01:40 away yeah um he actually made the dua
1:01:42 and he packed his bags
1:01:44 as if that do i was accepted and that
1:01:46 was the dua where he wanted to go on the
1:01:47 journey with the process
1:01:49 when they um you know migrated he
1:01:52 actually packed his bags as if like he
1:01:54 made the dua and he stopped packing his
1:01:55 bags as if he's already accepted
1:01:58 unbelievable isn't it and that's the
1:01:59 that's that's that is the islamic spirit
1:02:02 that is the islamic
1:02:05 when spirit hour strikes and you have
1:02:07 like a seed or punch you still plant it
1:02:09 right it's like you know beautiful
1:02:10 excellent and you know there's a verse
1:02:12 in the quran
1:02:13 where they're going into war now
1:02:16 and it was like they were outnumbered
1:02:18 and the
1:02:25 do you give us any respite except that
1:02:27 we may give
1:02:28 receive one of the two good things
1:02:30 two good things is death is seen as good
1:02:32 here if you get killed in the war
1:02:36 it's seen as good because you either get
1:02:37 killed you be a mata or you become
1:02:39 victorious that's interesting that's
1:02:40 what allah says do not say to the
1:02:42 martyrs that they are dead
1:02:43 yes even when you say they say don't
1:02:45 think they are they are with their lord
1:02:46 yes so the one way you know
1:02:48 they're in they're in a better position
1:02:49 even when you think of that yeah allah
1:02:51 negates death to them like they're not
1:02:52 that they were there and this is this is
1:02:54 so important that we
1:02:55 we talked about this already like even
1:02:56 from a secular perspective they realize
1:02:58 they'll say this is all a placebo effect
1:03:01 but the placebo effect is stronger than
1:03:02 your drugs with all due respect because
1:03:05 we've already spoken about this i'm not
1:03:06 sure if you remember
1:03:07 er
1:03:08 the the royal society of i don't know
1:03:10 what it is there's a there's a group of
1:03:12 drugs called ssris okay this is if you
1:03:14 go to the doctor and say you have
1:03:15 depression for long enough they will
1:03:17 give you something called ssris
1:03:19 which are a group of drugs like
1:03:20 cetalopram for example that one of the
1:03:23 most famous ones are prozac or whatever
1:03:24 you know whatever and then
1:03:27 they will see how how do you feel after
1:03:28 six months six weeks six months whatever
1:03:30 now
1:03:31 when they did the trials on this drug
1:03:34 they found
1:03:35 that 30 percent of people who were given
1:03:37 the placebo drug responded that they had
1:03:40 an inc
1:03:40 their lives have improved
1:03:43 and now the 50 of the ones who have been
1:03:46 given the real drugs in their lives have
1:03:47 improved now if you notice there's more
1:03:49 of a differential between the
1:03:51 the placebo group and
1:03:53 the placebo group and the ones who so
1:03:55 basically the ones who have taken the
1:03:56 sugar tablet a fake tablet yeah
1:03:59 and uh
1:04:01 between that
1:04:02 and uh and so basically the thought of
1:04:05 having a drug than
1:04:07 the drug and the placebo because the
1:04:08 drug in the placebo is 20 different
1:04:21 placebo had that improvement which means
1:04:23 that there's a difference between
1:04:25 there's 20 difference between uh placebo
1:04:27 and drug and a 30 difference between no
1:04:30 no placebo and placebo which means
1:04:32 there's more of a difference between no
1:04:33 placebo placebo than there is between
1:04:35 political and truck which means it's
1:04:36 more to do with the mind than anything
1:04:37 else
1:04:38 basically and if you if you have
1:04:41 a pessimistic attitude you will have a
1:04:43 pessimistic result if you have a
1:04:44 negative attitude you have a negative
1:04:46 result
1:04:48 it's a lot of depression and good you
1:04:50 know all of it is to do with the way you
1:04:52 perceive things
1:04:53 you know if you change the way you think
1:04:55 and this is by the way one of the
1:04:56 premises of cognitive behavioral therapy
1:04:58 you know which which is i think maybe a
1:05:01 little bit more sophisticated than the
1:05:02 talking cure and a bit more guided yeah
1:05:05 but it's on the nhs you can if someone
1:05:07 has issues you can get it free of the
1:05:09 charge but the point is is that islam
1:05:11 has things in place for this
1:05:14 which moves us on to the fourth point
1:05:16 the idea of depression in islam so what
1:05:17 what do you think
1:05:20 what comments you want to make about
1:05:21 depression is it the case with someone
1:05:23 who's depressed do we consider them to
1:05:25 be uh have low faith
1:05:30 or so what
1:05:33 i've been talking about i kind of want
1:05:34 to speak on this one as well yeah
1:05:36 because yeah because like um
1:05:38 you know like uh at the same time have
1:05:40 been sadness yeah so like there's two
1:05:41 examples that come to my mind the first
1:05:43 one is like the story
1:05:45 in the quran yeah like no one's going to
1:05:46 say he's lacking in him because he's a
1:05:47 nebby he's got more in mind and all of
1:05:49 us put together right you know he's been
1:05:51 like you know engaging with the malala i
1:05:52 can do these kind of things yeah but
1:05:54 like when he like both of his sons he
1:05:56 loses both of them yeah like he he goes
1:05:58 into a very very depressed day and even
1:06:00 his sons are telling him that you know
1:06:01 you're going to drive himself to
1:06:02 destruction all these kind of things
1:06:03 because he's upset because that means
1:06:04 that that kind of sadness but that
1:06:06 sadness was always kind of like checked
1:06:08 by you know his if he's a man that you
1:06:10 know solomon jamie that patience is
1:06:12 beautiful you know uh
1:06:14 perhaps allah will bring my sons back
1:06:16 and all this kind of thing so he's
1:06:17 saying that stuff as well but it's
1:06:18 optimism yeah exactly and the second one
1:06:21 is uh like the sahaba after the process
1:06:24 yeah because as far as like catastrophes
1:06:26 that people have like i think it's even
1:06:27 in a hadith that this is like the
1:06:28 greatest calamity that um was going to
1:06:29 fall upon
1:06:30 and like people like
1:06:32 like you have to leave you can even stay
1:06:34 in the place because he's remembering
1:06:36 that this is walking all these kind of
1:06:37 things and so like feeling sad in and of
1:06:40 itself is just is part of life and
1:06:42 that's the way it's kind of gonna kind
1:06:43 of gonna go but
1:06:45 like what islam provides is like a way
1:06:47 to
1:06:48 a way to understand and deal with that
1:06:49 kind of sadness that you're going to
1:06:51 face afflictions
1:06:52 but you recognize that that's
1:06:54 like you know uh
1:06:59 that you don't become
1:07:00 sort of like uncontrollably upset and
1:07:02 you you go into the depths and all these
1:07:04 kind of things based on that which you
1:07:05 don't have and you don't become proud
1:07:06 and arrogant based on that what you do
1:07:08 have like there's a way to understand it
1:07:10 and it's so it kind of if you think of
1:07:12 it like a graph yeah it kind of just
1:07:13 like it shrinks it brings together the
1:07:14 peaks and the troughs kind of thing and
1:07:16 so it's like
1:07:17 yeah it kind of mediates it like that
1:07:18 that way and it's it's very very
1:07:19 powerful like
1:07:21 how human beings looked beautiful i
1:07:22 think as well they articulated any any
1:07:25 any other points on that is good that's
1:07:26 very good and using jacob or jacob as a
1:07:30 as a template here obviously
1:07:31 that when he lost his son
1:07:34 he went blind
1:07:36 i mean what kind of thing
1:07:37 what would the doctor modern doctor say
1:07:39 about that they would say this is severe
1:07:41 depression
1:07:42 look at mario
1:07:44 you know she said
1:07:45 yeah later he could to admit to kabul
1:07:47 azaleko nissi and mancilla i wish i
1:07:50 would have been dead before this
1:07:52 and long ago if a modern doctor have
1:07:54 heard this he would say what say this is
1:07:56 a suicidal
1:07:57 contemplations right
1:07:59 this is mario malaya right but there was
1:08:02 one particular hadith by the way which i
1:08:04 came across
1:08:05 which i never thought of in this way
1:08:07 until i came across it in this way you
1:08:08 know
1:08:09 which is the hadith which is one of the
1:08:10 most profound hadees which actually go
1:08:12 back to point number two which we were
1:08:14 talking about which is the
1:08:15 insignificance of hayato dunya of the
1:08:17 the worldly life
1:08:19 it says that
1:08:21 that one of you will be in the day of
1:08:24 judgment
1:08:26 will be one of the most
1:08:28 happy
1:08:30 happy
1:08:31 disbelievers
1:08:33 and that they will be put into heaven
1:08:35 sorry they will be put into hell
1:08:37 and they will say i have never had a
1:08:40 good day at all
1:08:43 and then had these states
1:08:46 and one of you will be ashkar
1:08:48 ahlal janna
1:08:50 the one who is the most depressed of the
1:08:52 people of jannah
1:08:53 and he will put into jannah
1:08:55 and he and he will say i would never um
1:08:58 i've never had a
1:08:59 bad day i've never had a i've never had
1:09:02 yeah yeah dipped into it yeah yeah
1:09:04 they'll be dipped into it
1:09:07 hardship after that but so this unless
1:09:10 you know that's very interesting because
1:09:11 if you look at it like formula we've all
1:09:12 gone through tests and trials in our
1:09:14 life
1:09:14 do you guys would you agree that anytime
1:09:16 you've overcome that trial it's as if it
1:09:19 never happened
1:09:20 like once you've just come out of it and
1:09:23 let's say your door has been answered
1:09:24 whatever it may be you look back and
1:09:26 it's as if it never happened and it's
1:09:27 the same thing when you talk think about
1:09:29 when allah says when we dip him into
1:09:30 jannah but when allah answers a dua for
1:09:32 example something that you was longing
1:09:34 for or whatever it may be you finally
1:09:36 have it
1:09:37 it's as if the things that you went
1:09:38 through before
1:09:40 it's it's long gone it's like forgotten
1:09:41 it was never happened or the quran
1:09:43 actually says
1:09:51 that when we when we
1:09:53 make the human being we taste and give
1:09:55 them a taste of mercy
1:09:57 then we take that mercy away from them
1:09:59 he is
1:10:00 he's hopeless and
1:10:02 ungrateful
1:10:03 allah exposes
1:10:05 the nature of the fragile nature of the
1:10:06 human psyche in the quran
1:10:09 where
1:10:10 you know
1:10:12 either
1:10:12 jesus
1:10:17 human being is is created in a state of
1:10:19 anxiety
1:10:20 that if good happens to him
1:10:22 his is you know uh sorry if bad happens
1:10:24 to him he's overly anxious if bad if
1:10:26 good happens to him is very preventative
1:10:28 stingy almost except for the ones who
1:10:30 are
1:10:31 regular in their prayers and so on but
1:10:33 the point is
1:10:34 going back to this
1:10:38 the most depressed of the people of
1:10:39 jannah
1:10:42 the if the hadith says the most
1:10:43 oppressed the people of general that
1:10:44 means you can have people that are
1:10:45 depressed and go to germany
1:10:49 so if it's ash
1:10:51 right
1:10:52 so
1:10:53 which means you can depression you
1:10:55 cannot say that a muslim
1:10:58 a good muslim cannot be depressed
1:11:00 because this hadith says that the one
1:11:02 who is asha the one who is the most
1:11:05 depressed of that gender which means by
1:11:07 the way there's a sliding scale of
1:11:08 depression people there are some people
1:11:10 that are going to be more depressed than
1:11:11 others because ashkar is comparative
1:11:13 and this one is the most depressed of
1:11:15 them and he's going to be going into
1:11:16 jannah
1:11:19 by the way in psychology they
1:11:21 differentiate between something called
1:11:22 transitory sadness and depression and
1:11:25 usually it differentiates it between
1:11:26 time period so in psychology it's like
1:11:28 okay after six months you're now
1:11:29 depressed if you're still persisting in
1:11:31 the feeling and so on
1:11:33 and and it's it's actually characterized
1:11:35 by certain things lack of motivation you
1:11:37 know they have their own
1:11:39 kind of way of categorizing it but if
1:11:42 someone who's a muslim this is very
1:11:43 important for pastoral sayings comes and
1:11:45 says i'm facing depression
1:11:48 and then some some muslim person says
1:11:50 well actually i don't think you are i
1:11:51 don't think there's such a thing as
1:11:52 depression
1:11:54 he's actually going against the hadith
1:11:55 so what do you mean uh nothing is
1:11:57 oppression
1:11:59 what do you mean by that there's a you
1:12:00 you cannot be in the state of
1:12:02 or a sadness
1:12:05 with a hadith you can and that there
1:12:07 will be people that go to jannah right i
1:12:09 think you're complaining some issues
1:12:10 here because the thing is look there's
1:12:12 two issues where he said some scholars
1:12:13 come and say
1:12:15 you can't be depressed which is hajib
1:12:17 because there's so much even the process
1:12:18 when the revelation stopped and allah
1:12:20 said revelation exactly yeah to console
1:12:22 him good point um and then you have the
1:12:24 other extreme which we talked about
1:12:24 liberals about
1:12:26 maybe i i believe they're another
1:12:27 extreme where they
1:12:28 negate religion from the depression
1:12:32 so what they do is they say okay there's
1:12:34 a muslim and he's depressed um he um
1:12:38 he can be depressed while being um
1:12:41 being like
1:12:42 they they divorced the
1:12:44 religious element
1:12:46 to his depression
1:12:48 it's as if they are saying basically his
1:12:50 cure
1:12:50 is not in islam and that's very
1:12:53 dangerous
1:12:54 because what you're necessarily saying
1:12:56 is that the cure is in islam uh
1:12:58 basically he's just been depressed this
1:12:59 is a meant what does that mean because
1:13:01 are you trying to say that yes islam has
1:13:03 no that's isn't that another extreme
1:13:05 when you talk about that look here's the
1:13:06 thing if
1:13:08 we've got the final terms right so if
1:13:09 depression is seen as a as a prolonged
1:13:12 state of sadness
1:13:13 okay and that which means that you lack
1:13:15 motivation stuff like that
1:13:17 if this is what we understand by it
1:13:19 there's no contradiction in believing
1:13:20 that someone can maintain faith
1:13:23 and also have that feeling
1:13:24 and i think it will be i'll be honest
1:13:26 with you right i think sometimes when we
1:13:28 sell islam
1:13:29 we do so disingenuously
1:13:31 like okay become muslim
1:13:33 and you and you'll never face a
1:13:34 depressed place that's that's not true
1:13:36 right but what about what we divide into
1:13:38 two categories being depressed with iman
1:13:41 and being depressed without iman
1:13:43 because most of these prophets and like
1:13:45 people righteous people are
1:13:47 they've gone through depression with
1:13:49 iman our issue is with muslims who when
1:13:52 they come and a lot of people come to us
1:13:53 i'm depressed
1:13:54 why are you depressed brother you know i
1:13:56 wanna and then you listen to him
1:13:58 carefully like brother your depression
1:13:59 is somewhat really silly
1:14:01 like for example
1:14:02 one guy said he came he was it was more
1:14:04 like a little kind of road guy and he
1:14:05 was like you know i want you know this
1:14:07 and this kind of lifestyle i said
1:14:08 look at your depression
1:14:10 like the pressure is sad but what you're
1:14:12 sad is the wrong reasons you can find
1:14:14 what you're
1:14:15 trying to chase here allah promises you
1:14:17 something better you can get rid of that
1:14:19 however let's suppose argument's saying
1:14:21 somebody wants to be famous or whatever
1:14:23 whatever whatever and he's upset because
1:14:24 he can't gain that he goes into
1:14:26 depression because he can't acquire that
1:14:27 once you come and tell this guy the
1:14:29 greater purpose of life and he abundance
1:14:31 that he's got rid of his depression and
1:14:33 he's adopted the lifestyle where he
1:14:35 knows his focus and these things are
1:14:36 just dunya material yes but then he can
1:14:39 as a practicing person fall into
1:14:40 depression where allah tests him he
1:14:42 loses a loved one they're not the same
1:14:44 thing so can we say yeah again
1:14:46 so some people's depression can be
1:14:48 caused by reasons which are are
1:14:49 non-islamic yes
1:14:51 islam so in that case the cure if the
1:14:54 person is able to readjust their thought
1:14:55 process then hopefully he would say that
1:14:58 they're pushing himself however
1:14:59 sometimes it's not as simplistic as that
1:15:00 and i'll say something else
1:15:02 islam doesn't and we've got to be
1:15:04 careful what we promise
1:15:06 because you know the area which says
1:15:07 ella basically let us
1:15:09 that you know with the remembrance of
1:15:10 god do hearts find rest
1:15:12 doesn't mean that you'll be cured from
1:15:13 all kinds of grief and depression
1:15:16 i believe they're not being tested right
1:15:17 right so but but this is what what is
1:15:18 slab office is the following right it
1:15:20 doesn't offer cures to mental issues
1:15:24 that you're going to have whether it's
1:15:25 grief or depression or anxiety or any of
1:15:27 those things
1:15:28 if allah wills he can give you those
1:15:30 things and you can have full iman
1:15:32 but what it does give you
1:15:34 is meaning and purpose to that
1:15:35 depression
1:15:37 that's what islam gives you
1:15:39 and that that's the guarantee that's the
1:15:40 only guarantee you can make
1:15:42 that's the hadith of wanderers is the
1:15:44 affair of the believer
1:15:50 in
1:15:55 is the favor of the believer that all of
1:15:57 his favor his affairs are good and
1:16:00 that's not the case for anyone except
1:16:01 for the believer if good happens to him
1:16:03 then he is thankful if bad happens to
1:16:04 him he is patient and thankful
1:16:07 now the point is is that
1:16:09 uh as you said
1:16:13 you know do people think that you know
1:16:15 they'll be left to say i believe and
1:16:16 they will not be tested
1:16:18 uh so the the allah can decide to test a
1:16:21 person with grief and with depression
1:16:23 with anxiety and all those things
1:16:25 for the person who's a movement a
1:16:27 believer
1:16:28 who believes in islam in the last day
1:16:30 what we can guarantee is that that will
1:16:32 be a meaningful process unlike nihilists
1:16:36 nihilists say all of it is meaningless
1:16:38 we say every single thing that is going
1:16:40 you're going through is meaningful
1:16:43 now that itself as a concept for many
1:16:45 people might be enough to get them out
1:16:47 of depression
1:16:48 it may be but it's not guaranteed
1:16:51 and by the way i have to say i have to
1:16:52 say this
1:16:54 if we don't get this right we're going
1:16:55 to expose our ignorance because there
1:16:57 are some things like for example there
1:16:59 are some disorders out there
1:17:00 which are completely involuntary
1:17:04 borderline personality disorder bipolar
1:17:06 disorder
1:17:08 um
1:17:09 multiple personality disorder
1:17:12 people are sometimes put in states where
1:17:14 they are in extended states of
1:17:16 depression for more than two three four
1:17:18 months and it has nothing to do with how
1:17:20 they think
1:17:22 it has nothing to do it's like oh you
1:17:24 can tell them but they will continually
1:17:26 have manic episodes and then they'll
1:17:28 plunge into depressed depressed episodes
1:17:30 their mood will change
1:17:32 and you you cannot we cannot afford to
1:17:35 say to them that islam if you believe in
1:17:37 it properly you will no longer have
1:17:39 these uh episodes so you'll no longer be
1:17:41 depressed you'll no longer be manic
1:17:42 you're know that's impossible for us to
1:17:44 uh say that
1:17:46 you see and it so this is an extreme
1:17:48 because the extreme is will will solve
1:17:50 all your mental health issues with a
1:17:51 spiritual cure sometimes allah wants to
1:17:53 put you through the trial of
1:17:56 bipolar disorder or multiple personality
1:17:58 disorder or uh you know uh schizophrenia
1:18:01 these things are chemical they they
1:18:03 happen in the brain they affect
1:18:05 neurotransmitters sometimes they there's
1:18:07 a physiological effect there's an
1:18:09 interplay
1:18:10 and allah he puts you through that
1:18:12 because it's a test for you this we
1:18:14 cannot say well if you if you do this
1:18:16 amount of prayers or this amount of you
1:18:18 might do all the prayers
1:18:20 you might have all the right beliefs but
1:18:22 you will not evade that pain
1:18:24 and i know that sounds like a you know
1:18:26 whatever it might sound like right but
1:18:28 what we can say you may never be able to
1:18:30 evade the pain
1:18:32 likewise with grief
1:18:34 likewise with depression and anxiety
1:18:36 like what but you can make sense of the
1:18:38 pain
1:18:39 islam allows you to make sense of it
1:18:42 rather than
1:18:44 rather than it gives you a false cure
1:18:47 like you're some kind of psychologist
1:18:49 because
1:18:50 if that was the case there would never
1:18:51 be you know an issue
1:18:53 all those people who have all these
1:18:54 illnesses or just coming there
1:18:56 their prayers would solve the issues it
1:18:58 doesn't it doesn't actually happen like
1:18:59 that it doesn't work like that the
1:19:01 prayer
1:19:02 is a spiritual thing and it does put you
1:19:04 on a certain
1:19:06 it gives you a tama nina yes it gives
1:19:07 you a yes which means it gives you
1:19:09 tranquility but
1:19:11 if allah wants to put you through grief
1:19:13 he you will go through grief
1:19:15 if he wants to put you through
1:19:16 depression you will go there you have to
1:19:18 ride out
1:19:19 and sometimes knowing that and you can
1:19:20 you can accept that and sometimes
1:19:22 acceptance of that fact
1:19:24 is in fact uh
1:19:26 it helps you out it helps
1:19:29 but like you know we were talking about
1:19:31 one more thing with the
1:19:32 counseling approach the prophet
1:19:34 sometimes
1:19:35 used to give salah he used to have a
1:19:37 counseling approach
1:19:38 and we have to look at that very
1:19:39 carefully
1:19:40 because when the people came to him and
1:19:42 they were talking about how they were
1:19:43 being tortured in mecca
1:19:45 yet he did entertain the pain and he did
1:19:48 respect their pain and the ayat came
1:19:50 down about their pain but he also gave
1:19:52 them where there are pains there's this
1:19:54 people's pain out there which is more
1:19:56 like the back in the days that people
1:19:57 used to be combed with uh
1:20:00 you know this hadith you know with like
1:20:01 uh
1:20:02 i don't know comb
1:20:04 metal combs and they have their bodies
1:20:06 so he made them visualize something even
1:20:07 worse than what they're going through
1:20:08 yeah the skin peeled off with the so in
1:20:10 other words sometimes having an approach
1:20:13 where you not trivializing the pain but
1:20:15 letting them see that there's worse
1:20:17 sometimes that can help but this would
1:20:18 never be used
1:20:20 in either cbt or the psychoanalytic
1:20:22 approach but that's something we would
1:20:24 have to add but it should be because you
1:20:25 know allah says if you are grateful
1:20:28 i will increase you you know yes
1:20:29 increasing what a lot of people think
1:20:30 this is wealth for some reason they feel
1:20:31 like if i'm grateful allah give me more
1:20:33 increase you in what increase increase
1:20:34 your gratitude maybe we can be i'm
1:20:36 saying
1:20:37 you become more grateful you know and
1:20:38 there's a little process of he said do
1:20:40 not look at those above you because
1:20:42 you'll be ungrateful look at those below
1:20:44 you because anytime you look at someone
1:20:45 that doesn't have what you have you're
1:20:47 grateful any time you look at someone
1:20:48 that has something you don't have you
1:20:50 start complaining
1:20:53 i feel like that's like that gratitude
1:20:55 gratitude i think that by the way i
1:20:57 think gratitude is one of the most
1:20:58 underrated things because even like
1:21:00 psychological literature on it
1:21:02 it has shown that
1:21:04 the gratitude well by the way
1:21:06 optimism in all angles there was this
1:21:07 athlete remember he's a non-muslim yeah
1:21:09 and he got cancer he was on his death
1:21:11 and he goes someone said to him do you
1:21:12 ever say why me he goes did i ever say
1:21:15 why me when i won the gold medal did i
1:21:16 say ever why me when i don't know he was
1:21:18 listening all things why should i say
1:21:20 why me now and he's a disbeliever
1:21:22 you know it's it's crazy and yeah but
1:21:25 yeah absolutely and you know talk about
1:21:26 why i'll end with one thing that
1:21:28 nietzsche said
1:21:29 which you said
1:21:30 that if there is a how
1:21:32 if there's sorry if you have a why yeah
1:21:35 almost any how is possible and for a
1:21:37 pessimistic man that is a very
1:21:39 optimistic
1:21:47 someone said to me um when i first
1:21:49 started out
1:21:50 he said to me uh figure out your why
1:21:52 like why you want to do tao or whatever
1:21:54 leave the how to allah even better
1:21:57 please call me here
1:22:00 and with that bombshell note
1:22:04 that i have
1:22:06 [Laughter]