Is Science the Only Route to Truth? (2020-02-27) #

0:00:00 Mollie Kuramoto laborer kettle guys make
0:00:02 sure that you try these supplements out
0:00:05 there very very good very healthy
0:00:07 natural and you can check the link in
0:00:11 the description box that is nature's
0:00:13 blend black seed oil and they have other
0:00:15 things as well oh yeah no editor boy boy
0:00:21 boy
0:00:30 you
0:00:38 okay so this section will be a
0:00:40 discussion a bit of back and forth
0:00:42 between our two speakers I will be
0:00:44 moderating to try and keep things on
0:00:46 topic so forgive me for any mistakes I
0:00:49 make hopefully I don't make any and this
0:00:52 is a 15 minute section reminder that
0:00:54 after the closing remarks after this
0:00:56 there will be Q&A so please do send your
0:00:59 Q&A questions to that slider yeah so
0:01:03 without further ado whichever one of you
0:01:05 wants to hello John
0:01:11 yes so I think before we before we this
0:01:16 before we start this discussion session
0:01:18 it's very important to determine
0:01:20 something do you believe your opinions
0:01:23 matter or don't they matter they matter
0:01:25 to me
0:01:26 okay so okay don't matter to the
0:01:28 universe no no because if you if you
0:01:30 don't believe your own opinions matter
0:01:31 then I'm not going to take them
0:01:32 seriously is no point this discussion
0:01:33 becomes absurd from that perspective
0:01:35 then right so if the you might if you
0:01:37 believe your opinions matter then
0:01:39 obviously the Oh matter to us is work so
0:01:40 because we're having it until until
0:01:42 trying to have a discussion today
0:01:44 regarding a very important topic so you
0:01:47 do acknowledge your opinions matter
0:01:48 right well in the confines of this room
0:01:52 certainly yes so if we had this
0:01:54 discussion outside this room would you
0:01:56 think I mean it's a very simple question
0:02:00 I mean you wouldn't be here today
0:02:01 expressing your views if you didn't
0:02:02 believe your opinions mattered
0:02:03 well I was going to save my response to
0:02:07 your challenge that why do I do this why
0:02:11 don't why am I here debating for my
0:02:13 closing remarks but okay I can take your
0:02:16 question now I do it because I want to
0:02:19 secular world you want to say I want a
0:02:22 world in which religious opinions do not
0:02:27 control political or educational matters
0:02:33 okay so you just usually said you want a
0:02:36 secular world where religious opinions
0:02:38 do not have influence exactly so but to
0:02:41 do that wouldn't you say if you're gonna
0:02:43 be if we're gonna do this in in in a in
0:02:46 a academic way at least when you say you
0:02:48 would have to first understand and study
0:02:50 all religions or look
0:02:51 to them at least because which you
0:02:53 obviously haven't done when it comes to
0:02:54 Islam today right so why can't why have
0:02:56 the the outlook already that that's what
0:02:59 you want when you don't even know what
0:03:00 Islam has to say regarding life
0:03:02 regarding my life in the universe
0:03:04 regarding other fundamental things that
0:03:06 are relevant to us as human beings well
0:03:08 that's a good question
0:03:10 it's because without evidence for a god
0:03:14 it doesn't really matter what any of the
0:03:17 Scriptures of any religion do say so you
0:03:20 might as well say that my Loch Ness
0:03:25 monster is pink and like Nutella okay so
0:03:30 let's try to unravel this a bit so now
0:03:32 and I think it's important to highlight
0:03:33 this John you seem to have a underlying
0:03:36 premise which is evidence is what comes
0:03:39 from observation yes and something that
0:03:42 you can observe and study that way right
0:03:44 yes so in other words I want I wasn't
0:03:46 calling you someone who described the
0:03:47 scientism if you if you and I'm sure
0:03:49 everyone will acknowledge this I asked
0:03:51 you to describe to something similar to
0:03:52 scientism
0:03:53 I don't want to label you that's what I
0:03:54 said right it's just the correct you on
0:03:56 that right but the point being do you
0:03:58 acknowledge or is your view your outlook
0:04:00 that science is the only way to truth
0:04:03 yes okay good so do you not see the
0:04:06 issues with that outlook or the problems
0:04:09 of that outlook well you can try
0:04:11 explaining it okay so okay so let me
0:04:13 give you an example have you been
0:04:17 have you been to India have you been to
0:04:20 India no I haven't you haven't been to
0:04:22 India I'd love to okay do you believe in
0:04:23 the exists yes okay so you haven't been
0:04:27 there you haven't observed it yet you
0:04:29 believe it exists the effort is also
0:04:31 insane okay so what so what do you mean
0:04:33 by the evidence is very convincing
0:04:35 I've seen photographs taken from space
0:04:38 brilliant okay what else do we need more
0:04:42 okay so okay fine no I was just giving
0:04:44 you the benefit of the doubt that you
0:04:45 can give us a bit more second what I
0:04:46 know of people who have come from India
0:04:48 yeah who have visited I think mine is
0:04:51 there now okay and I I'm on messenger
0:04:54 and Facebook okay with him he's
0:04:56 currently where is he currently
0:05:00 Calcutta currently so here's a problem
0:05:03 Johnny you haven't observed India
0:05:06 yourself yet you believe it exists based
0:05:08 on photographs and people have been
0:05:10 there now how do you know those
0:05:12 photographs photographs are actually of
0:05:14 India and that you know just be told
0:05:16 they're of India well I think that you'd
0:05:24 have to you're on a loser there because
0:05:26 your hope you're having to try to
0:05:27 rubbish all of the photographs taken
0:05:31 from space by all of the space craft all
0:05:34 of them orbiting satellites and all of
0:05:38 the spacemen that have been in have you
0:05:40 seen okay have you seen yourself
0:05:41 satellites that are up there right now
0:05:44 yes you can observe satellite have you
0:05:47 observed them yourself through a
0:05:48 telescope I have yes you have okay so
0:05:50 here's the thing what I'm saying
0:05:51 regarding India is you haven't observed
0:05:53 it yourself so what I'm saying
0:05:55 essentially is your belief India exists
0:05:57 is based on something called testimony
0:05:59 right in the it's called in philosophy
0:06:01 this is known as authentic and valid
0:06:03 testimony right which is by the way John
0:06:05 an integral part of the scientific
0:06:06 method
0:06:07 well yes something you deny in your book
0:06:09 itself but the the testament can itself
0:06:14 be trusted I mean with the right
0:06:16 equipment I can go and investigate
0:06:19 sure that's a potential John but right
0:06:22 now you haven't done that yet you
0:06:23 believe in the exists right so your
0:06:26 belief is not based upon what you can do
0:06:28 as far as observing it it's based on
0:06:30 something else so what I'm trying to
0:06:32 highlight you John is that are you
0:06:34 willing to acknowledge that there are
0:06:35 other routes to knowledge other than
0:06:36 just science which you're demonstrating
0:06:38 right now by a highlighting that you
0:06:40 believe in the existent observed it
0:06:42 yourself pictures could be pictures are
0:06:44 testimonial someone is telling you those
0:06:46 pictures of India you're going by the
0:06:48 testimony of people let me give you
0:06:50 another example which may be closer to
0:06:52 home which may help you a bit there if
0:06:53 you don't mind right do you believe
0:06:55 evolution the Darwinian mechanism is
0:06:57 true yes okay I don't listen as a an X
0:07:03 I'm steeped I don't use terms like I
0:07:06 believe I use terms like the evidence
0:07:11 is Church the evidence show shows that
0:07:14 that evolution is a fact so you believe
0:07:17 the Darwinian mechanism particular well
0:07:20 now are you going to pin me down to a
0:07:22 man who died 150 years ago or are you
0:07:24 going to allow me to update us give us
0:07:27 your definition how do you want equality
0:07:30 on call it evolution just evolution
0:07:32 engine at its basic level all evolution
0:07:35 means is change and we can observe
0:07:39 change happening yesterday yeah and we
0:07:42 can see evidence which for which of a
0:07:47 progression of things that happened in
0:07:49 the past yep in the fossil record and so
0:07:51 on and so the best explanation is that
0:07:55 change happened in the past - okay good
0:07:58 so so so this week like this good you're
0:08:01 saying that so you so what I'm asking
0:08:02 you specifically is do you believe the
0:08:05 theory of evolution is true yes okay so
0:08:09 in you saying yes have you done all of
0:08:12 the observations which led to that
0:08:15 conclusion basically this is the were
0:08:18 you there that's coming from your own
0:08:21 perspective because you said evidence is
0:08:23 something which is observable yeah it's
0:08:25 something that's repeatable and
0:08:26 something that's sharable if anything
0:08:27 and you've said also in your book and
0:08:28 your videos that anything that comes
0:08:29 from the human mind can't be trusted
0:08:32 because it's tainted your words so the
0:08:35 theory that you believe in is coming
0:08:37 from the mind of a scientist no no the
0:08:40 theory that I subscribe to is that
0:08:45 change can be observed and potentially I
0:08:48 can go and observe change you know I
0:08:50 think have you seen the big petri dish
0:08:54 experiment no I have a fantastic
0:08:56 experiment they made a pet you know the
0:08:58 petri dishes mhm yeah it's a it's a
0:09:01 culture container which you put a
0:09:03 nutrient jelly in and then you can grow
0:09:05 bacteria okay they made a great big one
0:09:08 some meter long and they've put two
0:09:11 different bacteria no they put a
0:09:17 bacterium same culture of bacteria in
0:09:20 each end and in between them they've put
0:09:23 increasing string
0:09:25 of antibiotic okay 10% 20% 100% and
0:09:31 initially the bacteria spread in the
0:09:36 area where there's no antibiotic there's
0:09:39 a video of this because it speeded up
0:09:41 you know we use organisms that have a
0:09:44 short lifetime because we can't observe
0:09:47 yeah massive changes we don't live long
0:09:49 enough okay so bacteria are perfect they
0:09:52 reproduce every 20 minutes okay
0:09:54 so initially they stay confined yep in
0:09:59 the area where there's no antibiotic but
0:10:01 a few of them you take and they can
0:10:03 break out and pass into the area where
0:10:05 the antibiotic is 10% okay more time
0:10:08 goes by and an even smaller number
0:10:11 mutate and they pass into the 20% so on
0:10:14 and so forth you get a picture
0:10:15 eventually they can colonize the hundred
0:10:17 percent strength sure that's that's an
0:10:20 observation change being a plane yes
0:10:23 repeatedly sure and sherab lee yes you
0:10:26 can watch it sir I agree today so let's
0:10:28 make a distinction there there is a
0:10:30 difference between observations of
0:10:31 science and theories of science right
0:10:34 yes so what I'm trying to highlight to
0:10:36 you is that there are other routes to
0:10:38 knowledge which are involved even within
0:10:40 the scientific method itself which you
0:10:42 have to rely upon for you to believe the
0:10:44 conclusions of science well which you
0:10:46 reject by the way so I want to know
0:10:48 which way is it do you acknowledge that
0:10:49 there are other routes to knowledge such
0:10:51 as testimony well testimonial knowledge
0:10:53 or do well firm to that science is the
0:10:55 only way to truth where you are trying
0:10:56 to put words into my mouth I'm asking
0:10:58 you the question okay is trying to make
0:11:02 me you see the trouble is the word
0:11:03 belief has two meanings
0:11:07 it can mean merely accepting something
0:11:11 which we know to be true like you know
0:11:14 if I jump off a roof of very probably
0:11:17 for nobody would contest that so to all
0:11:22 intents and purposes it does not need
0:11:24 actively believing we can observe
0:11:27 believing now in what are they calling
0:11:31 give me a word for the the I'm lost
0:11:38 big machine you put a person in and you
0:11:40 watch his brain you put you give him
0:11:44 radioactive material thank you yeah yeah
0:11:50 medicals come on tell me the name that's
0:11:53 it thank you mr I've been in one MRI
0:11:55 scanner and the functional MRI scanner
0:11:59 is the one way you can put in a decaying
0:12:02 substance into the radioactivity
0:12:05 decaying harmless into the bloodstream
0:12:07 and watch where it congregates so if you
0:12:12 give somebody in an MRI scanner pictures
0:12:16 of things that need believing and
0:12:19 pictures of things which are known you
0:12:21 can see how actively thinking he is and
0:12:27 things that need believing attract a lot
0:12:32 of this activity things like my horse
0:12:37 will win the race you need to actively
0:12:40 believe that but things like yesterday
0:12:45 this horse won the race that's a
0:12:47 foregone conclusion we know that is now
0:12:49 a fact you don't need to believe that if
0:12:52 it was really interesting the science
0:12:55 lessons I'm sure is we got a lot to
0:12:57 learn from you because you asked me
0:12:59 about where I need to use belief in
0:13:02 science no I'm asking a very simple
0:13:04 question do you acknowledge that there
0:13:06 are other routes to knowledge which I'm
0:13:08 Ted go to the scientific method itself
0:13:09 such as testimony oh don't you
0:13:11 acknowledge that or you just think just
0:13:13 purely oh because according to your book
0:13:15 and you may want to change your opinion
0:13:16 the observations repeatable and a
0:13:19 shareable . according to that type of
0:13:21 definition you're pigeon holing yourself
0:13:23 in many ways because you're in a way
0:13:25 you're denying the scientific enterprise
0:13:27 you're denying science in itself right
0:13:29 because so just tell me this should you
0:13:32 do you believe in the theories of
0:13:34 science the theories of science do not
0:13:37 need believing I'm not saying the
0:13:39 absolute I'm just asking seduced right I
0:13:41 wouldn't claim they were absolute I
0:13:42 claim that they are the best explanation
0:13:45 currently and you do you acknowledge
0:13:46 that they are also it was incorporated
0:13:49 in the process of getting to the theory
0:13:51 there are other
0:13:51 elements such as testimony reasoning
0:13:54 which argumentation let done yes every
0:13:59 theory makes predictions yeah and at
0:14:02 that stage you can believe the
0:14:04 prediction or not it we've recorded a
0:14:06 hypothesis and there will be rival
0:14:09 hypotheses just like their arrival
0:14:11 runners in a horse race and you can
0:14:14 choose your favorite okay
0:14:16 and that is where belief is applied in
0:14:19 science so you'll acknowledge that at
0:14:20 the frontiers where we don't know okay
0:14:24 so in a simple way we've got one minute
0:14:26 of the about two minutes left
0:14:27 do you acknowledge testimony as a valid
0:14:31 route to knowledge it's a simple
0:14:34 question if you eye knowledge test to me
0:14:38 which can be tested I acknowledge if you
0:14:41 were to tell me that I can see a
0:14:45 particular satellite going past at this
0:14:48 moment then I know that if I get the
0:14:52 right equipment
0:14:53 I can check out your test you sure but
0:14:56 that's a potential John otherwise your
0:14:59 testimony is very suspect yeah I don't
0:15:02 think you understanding my point right
0:15:04 now because I could testify to you that
0:15:06 I have fairies at the bottom of my gun
0:15:09 and unless you go there in check for
0:15:11 yourself you should doubt me
0:15:13 sure but I'm not looking to get into the
0:15:16 epistemology of things I'm asking you a
0:15:17 very simple question do you consider
0:15:19 testimony as a fundamental root to
0:15:22 knowledge something that science is also
0:15:23 dependent upon only if it can be checked
0:15:28 but doesn't that is a testimony that you
0:15:32 don't you don't take testimony as a
0:15:34 route to knowledge based on the fact
0:15:35 that it could be tested that's just that
0:15:38 is so because the whole point of science
0:15:40 is to challenge claims yeah testimony is
0:15:44 a claim okay so it must be challenged or
0:15:48 buggy so in order to be scientific okay
0:15:51 so let me ask you this way do you
0:15:52 acknowledge that science in science and
0:15:55 you keep making it as simple as possible
0:15:56 when you're engaged in science a
0:15:58 scientist is doing the science
0:16:00 they take observations Bertrand Russell
0:16:02 for example highlighted that you as a
0:16:04 scientist
0:16:04 you take observations and you reason
0:16:06 upon the observation that is time we
0:16:09 fret we more time
0:16:27 you
0:16:30 Mollie Kuramoto liable careful guys make
0:16:33 sure that you try these supplements out
0:16:36 there very very good very healthy
0:16:39 natural and you can check the link in
0:16:42 the description box that is nature's
0:16:44 blend black seed oil and they have other
0:16:47 things as well oh yeah no editor boy boy
0:16:52 boy