10000+ Gods!? Can we know the truth? | TAP #23 (2022-09-18) ​

0:00:06 [Music]
0:00:07 i am
0:00:36 and also our panelists today
0:00:39 so inshallah today
0:00:42 we've got a special guest uh brother
0:00:44 mustachin
0:00:46 who is joining us today
0:00:48 and we'll discuss why he's joining us
0:00:50 today because this is one of his key
0:00:52 areas of expertise
0:00:54 uh on this particular subject area
0:00:56 although he probably hates me for saying
0:00:57 that
0:00:59 alhamdulillah he's come on and we're
0:01:01 going to be having a discussion with
0:01:02 himself and obviously the brothers here
0:01:04 obviously we have brother yusuf as well
0:01:06 uh salaam's brother yusuf welcome
0:01:10 how are you
0:01:16 hopefully he's joining us he might
0:01:19 struggle
0:01:20 unfortunately one of his kids is a bit
0:01:22 ill so please remember his child and
0:01:25 family inshallah um hopefully nothing
0:01:28 too serious
0:01:29 um
0:01:30 jake's still a bit busy so he still
0:01:31 can't join us as yet but hopefully
0:01:34 following the future streams he'll be uh
0:01:35 going back in
0:01:37 uh so what's the topic today so the
0:01:39 topic is today
0:01:40 uh ten thousand gods
0:01:43 can we know the truth can we ever know
0:01:46 which one is true so this is one of
0:01:48 those
0:01:49 various contentions that
0:01:51 many atheists actually promote this
0:01:54 particular contention and promote it
0:01:56 from two angles so one of the angles is
0:01:58 basically saying
0:02:00 why should i believe in your particular
0:02:02 god when there have been loads of gods
0:02:04 in the past that have been rejected
0:02:11 i believe in a creator anyway uh because
0:02:14 there are so many different god claims
0:02:16 out there that it inevitably means that
0:02:19 it's all relative inevitably means it's
0:02:21 all false or
0:02:23 somebody might turn around and argue
0:02:25 that it's impossible to ever know which
0:02:27 one's true because how could i
0:02:29 go through all 10 000 god claims in my
0:02:32 lifetime
0:02:33 in order to try to verify which one is a
0:02:36 true religion so or is truly from this
0:02:39 creator or creators if that's what
0:02:42 people believe so there's various
0:02:44 arguments that are being presented and
0:02:46 some of the conclusions of those
0:02:47 arguments are basically saying it's
0:02:49 epistemically impossible because it's
0:02:52 this massive information overload the
0:02:54 second obviously argument is say well it
0:02:57 must be all untrue yeah because why
0:02:59 there's so many claims so we want to
0:03:01 dive into this and we want to say do we
0:03:03 need to
0:03:04 become like scholars and theologians on
0:03:07 every aspect
0:03:09 of every religion out there in order to
0:03:11 be able to assess in that way which
0:03:13 one's the correct one
0:03:15 or not so that's the topic today
0:03:17 inshallah in our beginning of our
0:03:19 introduction we'll have a quick
0:03:21 discussion lay out the sort of the
0:03:24 arguments the points
0:03:25 of view
0:03:26 and then we'll open it up to any uh
0:03:30 any particular questions uh from the
0:03:32 audience or comments or contentions that
0:03:34 might come uh from the audience
0:03:37 insha'allah so that's just a short ish
0:03:39 introduction uh you also don't know if
0:03:41 you've got any quick thoughts of
0:03:43 yourself uh without going into the
0:03:45 details because uh we've
0:03:46 got a series of questions that we can
0:03:48 ask
0:03:49 yeah so long story short
0:03:51 uh no
0:03:54 no okay inshallah so um i think the
0:03:57 first question that i want to ask and
0:03:59 maybe actually i'm going to open it with
0:04:00 uh
0:04:01 so so just really quickly as well sorry
0:04:04 uh mustache the reason why we brought
0:04:05 him on is because mustafin has produced
0:04:08 various presentations
0:04:10 uh planning to do various workshops or
0:04:13 maybe videos on this particular topic
0:04:15 area so you know it's put a lot of
0:04:17 effort a lot of thought in terms of
0:04:20 looking at how do we go from
0:04:22 numerous claims of the divine to being
0:04:26 able to filter into something that's
0:04:27 manageable you know what are those
0:04:29 particular filters
0:04:32 but before i just uh
0:04:34 uh
0:04:35 dive into what are those particular
0:04:37 filters
0:04:38 um
0:04:40 why should we be looking
0:04:42 for a belief system in the first place
0:04:44 because i think a lot of atheists out
0:04:46 there
0:04:47 or agnostics or general non-believers
0:04:49 are saying well why do i need to
0:04:52 you know look for
0:04:54 a god claim why do i need to even
0:04:56 process any information out there
0:04:59 yes i'd probably just say that
0:05:01 you know if for whatever reason you
0:05:04 neglect this and it happens to be
0:05:06 important in the long run um
0:05:08 you're going to regret that
0:05:10 and so you should at least be open to
0:05:12 this as a possibility
0:05:15 um before completely writing it off and
0:05:18 obviously this is where the particular
0:05:20 objection that we're going to be talking
0:05:22 about crops in and they say ah well
0:05:24 where do i start
0:05:25 i said well we can go through that but
0:05:27 there are methods and there are ways of
0:05:29 being able to narrow this down you you
0:05:31 know
0:05:32 it's like the um
0:05:34 the example i always use is you come
0:05:36 upon a crime scene
0:05:38 and you're like someone's been murdered
0:05:40 and then someone goes oh no we will
0:05:42 never find out who the murderer was
0:05:44 there is over 8 million people on the
0:05:46 planet it could be any one of them and
0:05:48 so well
0:05:49 well no
0:05:51 you don't begin by assuming
0:05:53 everyone is a potential suspect there's
0:05:57 ways in categorizing things and uh
0:05:59 writing whole groups of people off
0:06:02 and like you know or look in the
0:06:04 opposite way you could um
0:06:07 look to see if there are any evidences
0:06:09 that give rise to the suspicion of a
0:06:12 particular guilty party in the case of
0:06:14 the murderer um or any evidences that
0:06:16 might
0:06:17 make a particular religion shine out as
0:06:19 being more likely to be the case uh than
0:06:22 others so
0:06:24 yeah this it's not the case it's simply
0:06:26 because you have all of this information
0:06:27 that you need to try to sift through
0:06:29 um that you do need to go through
0:06:31 absolutely every single thing um you can
0:06:34 group them and write them off
0:06:35 accordingly
0:06:37 yeah so uh
0:06:39 um
0:06:40 so what's your thoughts in terms of why
0:06:42 should we be looking
0:06:44 into belief claims in the first place if
0:06:46 you've got non-muslim basically he's
0:06:48 agnostic doesn't really care much about
0:06:50 religion and you're saying to him well
0:06:53 you got to go through these rational
0:06:54 filters
0:06:55 and he said well why should i bother
0:06:57 anyway
0:06:59 yes you see initially this is obviously
0:07:01 the stage the transition from
0:07:03 obviously d is empty theism so i'm sure
0:07:06 obviously you guys have done a series on
0:07:07 you know deism like
0:07:09 uh in terms of the
0:07:11 reasons why it's preferred for that to
0:07:13 be obviously like revelation um and i
0:07:15 think some of the reasons that you could
0:07:16 potentially mention for example are like
0:07:18 you know the desire to you know worship
0:07:22 so you know human beings we naturally
0:07:23 have that you know that instinct within
0:07:25 us to worship
0:07:26 and the question is you know
0:07:28 since humans by our nature we differ
0:07:31 we can't really come to this conclusion
0:07:33 like
0:07:34 the only only one who could really
0:07:35 satisfy that instinct and who can tell
0:07:37 us how to worship is allah because
0:07:40 otherwise there's obviously going to be
0:07:42 contradictions some people might worship
0:07:44 the self
0:07:45 some people might worship you know money
0:07:47 some people might worship a statue
0:07:49 and so how do we direct that worship now
0:07:52 because obviously with
0:07:54 doctors for example if it's something
0:07:55 like physical we have a physical problem
0:07:57 you know you can use like doctors
0:07:59 because they can direct that but when
0:08:00 it's something metaphysical something
0:08:02 spiritual
0:08:03 and only something spiritual can direct
0:08:06 that worship instinct so i'd say that's
0:08:08 one reason definitely why you know
0:08:10 revelation is a necessity because
0:08:13 that worship instinct needs to be
0:08:14 directed i think secondly as well you
0:08:16 know the concept of like right and wrong
0:08:19 so you know again going back to the
0:08:20 point you know human beings by nature we
0:08:22 differ
0:08:23 so who judges what's right and wrong
0:08:26 is it your desires is it society or is
0:08:29 it allah
0:08:32 and obviously you could obviously give
0:08:33 other reasons but i feel like the point
0:08:35 about morality um it makes more sense to
0:08:38 say that
0:08:39 a creator
0:08:41 exists and he sends revelation and he
0:08:43 tells us what is right and wrong because
0:08:45 otherwise everything then does become
0:08:47 like relative
0:08:48 you know subjective but we do sense some
0:08:51 sort of objective
0:08:52 morality and what directs that how do we
0:08:56 determine that the source can only be
0:08:58 grounded in a divine being
0:09:00 right yeah no and
0:09:02 in terms of my particular thoughts on
0:09:03 this particular question
0:09:05 i think what is that whether you're an
0:09:06 atheist a non-believer believer in
0:09:09 whatever religion
0:09:11 you're looking for some sort of world
0:09:13 view you're looking for something that
0:09:15 provides an understanding about the good
0:09:17 luck
0:09:18 so it's natural inevitable that you're
0:09:20 going to be looking for some sort of
0:09:22 belief system so belief system doesn't
0:09:24 necessitate that it's some sort of
0:09:26 religious belief system you're going to
0:09:27 be looking for a belief system or world
0:09:30 view but i think for from our discussion
0:09:32 today we are assuming that a creator
0:09:35 exists yeah we are assuming that you
0:09:37 know there are good reasons and rational
0:09:39 reasons to believe in a creator and then
0:09:41 from that certain arguments follow so
0:09:43 some of one of those arguments i think
0:09:45 you mentioned mustafin is that you know
0:09:47 we are created with this desire to
0:09:48 worship yeah and so if if we can sense
0:09:52 that there's this exist this nature this
0:09:54 human nature to want to worship
0:09:56 we want to see meaning purpose and we've
0:09:59 already established that creator exists
0:10:01 then it follows that the creator is the
0:10:02 one whether directly or indirectly is
0:10:05 the one that caused you to have that
0:10:07 innate desire in that innate nature
0:10:09 yeah so therefore if there's this innate
0:10:11 nature to want to form this relationship
0:10:13 with the creator then it's naturally
0:10:14 inevitable that we're gonna ask the
0:10:16 question how do we do that and so part
0:10:19 of that question part solving that
0:10:21 question and solving that problem of how
0:10:23 to get understand meaning how to worship
0:10:26 you're going to naturally ask the
0:10:28 question is there some sort of
0:10:29 communication from the creator and
0:10:32 obviously as we know there's many people
0:10:34 who've made claims uh to the divine so
0:10:37 so moving on to that um
0:10:40 by looking at uh
0:10:42 so i i think we mentioned it sort of
0:10:44 anyway but i just wanted to make this
0:10:45 you know emphasize this point because
0:10:47 some people are just going to turn
0:10:48 around and say look
0:10:49 you're calling for us to look for divine
0:10:52 religious claims but are you not just
0:10:55 assuming that god exists you're not
0:10:57 putting the cop before the horse
0:11:00 so
0:11:00 with this though it's like we obviously
0:11:03 especially with regards to these videos
0:11:06 we can't every time we do a video go
0:11:08 through the whole process that we've
0:11:10 already been through
0:11:12 because we're just all like we've done
0:11:14 previous videos on for example stage one
0:11:16 or stage two or other arguments for the
0:11:18 existence of god
0:11:20 they took hours like if we've got to do
0:11:22 that before we even get into this
0:11:24 particular objection
0:11:26 then we're never gonna get anywhere so
0:11:28 for the sake of
0:11:30 brevity if you want justification for
0:11:32 those things see the previous episodes
0:11:35 and with this what we're doing is we're
0:11:37 saying was basically saying okay
0:11:39 we're dealing with someone now
0:11:41 who for the sake of argument is
0:11:43 conceding
0:11:44 that god exists
0:11:46 but now they have this obstacle and they
0:11:49 say okay i'll fine i'll admit there's
0:11:52 a likeliness of there being a god but
0:11:54 how am i even going to get to the truth
0:11:55 of the matter when there's so many
0:11:57 religions that that's the type of
0:12:00 um
0:12:01 individual this particular stream is
0:12:02 going to be dealing with someone who's
0:12:04 willing to at least accept that if
0:12:05 they're not willing to accept that
0:12:07 there's no point going through this with
0:12:08 them necessarily you have to go back
0:12:12 to um
0:12:14 proving to them that god exists or
0:12:16 getting them to at least concede that a
0:12:18 god exists if for whatever reason they
0:12:20 still say
0:12:21 oh you know i i don't i don't believe in
0:12:24 a god um and i'm not going to bother
0:12:26 looking into whether or not there is a
0:12:28 god unless this
0:12:30 objection is clarified you say okay
0:12:32 let's for the sake of argument say
0:12:34 that there is a god what would you do
0:12:36 then
0:12:39 alexa stop
0:12:41 uh it's prayer time in three minutes so
0:12:43 um
0:12:44 yeah basically you're just saying okay
0:12:46 well if this is an abs like an absolute
0:12:48 obstacle and you're not even gonna
0:12:49 bother looking into god unless this is
0:12:51 addressed then we'll power the question
0:12:54 of uh whether or not god exists to the
0:12:56 side for a moment and deal with this in
0:12:59 particular and then you can sort of open
0:13:00 it up or go into it
0:13:02 okay
0:13:03 you wanted to raise something on that no
0:13:06 i was just going to say what yusuf says
0:13:07 obviously entire discussion of today is
0:13:10 premise on the point of obviously allah
0:13:12 exists and you know he has sent
0:13:14 revelation now how do we know and how
0:13:16 can we assess what revelation that is
0:13:18 so obviously it's good that we make that
0:13:19 clear from the very beginning and
0:13:21 obviously you can obviously refer to the
0:13:22 other previous videos regardless
0:13:24 obviously the existence of a lot but
0:13:25 we've obviously you guys have already
0:13:27 done
0:13:28 yeah no i'm doing that so the other
0:13:30 question the other thing that's and you
0:13:32 know the people might turn around and
0:13:33 i've seen some of the people in the
0:13:34 audience say it's a really terrible
0:13:36 argument that atheists might bring in
0:13:37 terms of it but i've i've been involved
0:13:39 in debates formal debates with atheists
0:13:41 and they brought this as a contention
0:13:43 and one of the contentions they brought
0:13:45 up is there are 4 000 god claims or 10
0:13:48 000 whatever it is
0:13:49 therefore it must be untrue
0:13:51 because you
0:13:53 are an atheist to everybody else's god
0:13:55 claim so why assume that yours is the
0:13:56 correct one so how do you how do you
0:13:58 address that there just so many claims
0:14:00 to the existence of god
0:14:02 you know i've heard have you even heard
0:14:03 any debates with him
0:14:08 yeah i think this is a logical policy um
0:14:10 you know just because there are many
0:14:11 religions it doesn't mean all our faults
0:14:14 let's take for example you know there's
0:14:16 conflicting views as to who did you know
0:14:18 for example 911 for example just because
0:14:20 you know there's so many views is it xyz
0:14:23 it doesn't mean you know there's no one
0:14:24 true answer
0:14:26 um yusuf actually gave a good example i
0:14:28 remember uh when you said you know let's
0:14:29 say you have um a thousand fathers
0:14:32 claiming to be the father of that one
0:14:34 child
0:14:35 just because you know there's one
0:14:36 thousand fathers or one million fathers
0:14:38 claiming does not mean there's no father
0:14:41 does not mean therefore there's no no
0:14:42 correct answer and you know you can also
0:14:45 extend this example to science you know
0:14:48 we have conflicting models in cosmology
0:14:50 you know you have the big bang
0:14:52 steady state model you know you have the
0:14:54 oscillating model
0:14:55 and xyz and you know all of them
0:14:57 contradict to some extent at a
0:14:59 fundamental level and it's a great
0:15:01 example though because like
0:15:03 for if you were to say well what is the
0:15:06 right one out of them
0:15:08 you can't just simply point the sheer
0:15:09 number off them and say ah but you know
0:15:12 how did the universe come to be well
0:15:13 we've got this theory we've got that
0:15:15 theory
0:15:16 string theory this theory blah blah blah
0:15:18 blah blah and then go ah but there's
0:15:19 just so many like you know i'm an
0:15:22 atheist
0:15:23 to
0:15:24 like all of them just as you as a
0:15:26 proponent of string theory are an
0:15:27 atheist to the other ones like it's no
0:15:30 that isn't
0:15:32 like there could be genuine cases within
0:15:34 each particular theory
0:15:36 um that should incline you to believing
0:15:38 one more soul than the other and simply
0:15:41 like the quantity of them is completely
0:15:43 irrelevant exactly
0:15:46 you might as well throw signs in the bin
0:15:48 and just say science is false if you're
0:15:49 gonna say all religions are false then
0:15:51 you might as well you know say science
0:15:52 obviously his fault
0:15:55 yeah
0:15:56 it's a good point
0:15:57 time now should we take a short break to
0:15:59 pray we can do yeah uh
0:16:02 so um
0:16:05 we were going to have i think abdul
0:16:06 rahman's struggling to come at this time
0:16:08 at the moment because i was going to get
0:16:09 him just to cover the stream while we
0:16:11 played mugrub
0:16:12 uh but obviously
0:16:16 yeah i'm just looking for that little
0:16:17 thing where it says
0:16:20 you gotta go to banners yeah yeah
0:16:22 banners oh there we go i found it
0:16:25 there we go
0:16:27 so i'm gonna drop everything down
0:16:29 and then uh
0:16:31 we'll come back so just get five minutes
0:16:33 or so
0:16:35 [Music]
0:16:37 he's funny he always uh cuts himself off
0:20:47 uh well i'm back anyway marshall i think
0:20:50 the other brother is probably doing the
0:20:53 we're starting sort of
0:20:54 in salah
0:20:56 masha'allah
0:20:58 so they might come back shortly
0:21:00 um so yeah so today's topic we're
0:21:02 talking about is the topic that a lot of
0:21:04 the atheists are various atheists or
0:21:07 very small muslims generally bring up
0:21:08 which is a question related to
0:21:11 uh there's so many gods out there there
0:21:12 for them you know they all must be false
0:21:14 and i think we've addressed that
0:21:15 particular question
0:21:17 um both uh brother
0:21:20 mustachin and also uh yourself mentioned
0:21:22 the point which is say that look just
0:21:24 because there's competing theories out
0:21:26 there doesn't mean that therefore all
0:21:28 theories are incorrect and they gave
0:21:30 various examples within science how
0:21:32 there's different competing theories
0:21:33 about
0:21:35 the origins of the cosmos but that
0:21:37 doesn't mean therefore
0:21:38 there is no quote-unquote origin of the
0:21:40 cosmos where that's oscillating you know
0:21:43 uh eternal universe steady state model
0:21:45 etcetera
0:21:46 so you know we've addressed that
0:21:48 particular point
0:21:50 uh and so we're moving on to talking
0:21:52 about you know uh further in terms of
0:21:55 how can we know
0:22:02 [Music]
0:22:08 there's a bit of an echo coming or
0:22:10 feedback coming through from muslim have
0:22:11 you got some headphones bro
0:22:14 yeah i do have headphones um just give
0:22:16 me a minute one sec
0:22:19 [Music]
0:22:20 it's the mute yeah
0:22:23 if you made it um
0:22:26 cool
0:22:26 so yeah so that's the topic today uh
0:22:29 that we're talking about there will be
0:22:30 opportunity insha'allah for people to
0:22:33 ring in or ring in i don't know what
0:22:35 what yeah how do you say it
0:22:37 join the stream yeah join the stream
0:22:39 yeah ringing ask your questions
0:22:42 comment
0:22:43 i'm trying to sound like not like not
0:22:45 like the boomer
0:22:48 the footiest thing last week though so i
0:22:51 actually definitely kicked myself out of
0:22:53 this dream
0:22:54 you kind of did that on your way out of
0:22:56 the mangrove prayer as well
0:22:58 oh you're like oh yeah and then cut
0:23:01 yourself
0:23:02 your finger
0:23:04 right okay cool uh
0:23:21 that's that's when mustache is playing
0:23:22 call of duty
0:23:24 i stopped playing that one
0:23:27 right okay so
0:23:29 um quick question then uh
0:23:32 now we've got a different problem now
0:23:33 he's breathing into the mic
0:23:36 yeah move the mic away from your nose a
0:23:37 little bit yeah
0:23:39 there you go yeah it's all right there
0:23:41 yeah
0:23:42 so i don't know if we've answered this
0:23:43 particular question but you know uh
0:23:46 maybe we have actually i think yes if
0:23:48 you sort of explained it we have so many
0:23:49 religions out there
0:23:51 is it basically epistemic overload are
0:23:54 we
0:23:55 inevitably in a situation that we can
0:23:57 never know because of so many god claims
0:23:59 so many religious claims and we're not
0:24:01 just talking about now we're talking
0:24:02 about for the last human existence has
0:24:05 been so many different god claims so how
0:24:06 could we know which one's true
0:24:09 yeah so some people do just get
0:24:10 overwhelmed by it um and they're just
0:24:13 looking they don't know how on earth
0:24:14 they're gonna be able to sift through
0:24:16 all of that information um but it
0:24:18 doesn't mean there isn't ways of doing
0:24:20 it so you could just say
0:24:22 all right
0:24:23 what kind of different religions are
0:24:25 there so you've got monotheism
0:24:27 deism polytheism
0:24:29 uh trinitarianism
0:24:32 so on and so forth and you could look
0:24:34 into these
0:24:35 groups or ask questions about these
0:24:37 particular groups and ask whether or not
0:24:40 the group is itself something that makes
0:24:43 sense
0:24:44 and maybe if you come to the conclusion
0:24:46 for example
0:24:47 that um you're not like contingent
0:24:50 things are not worthy of worship
0:24:52 so things that begin
0:24:54 and not worthy of worship uh then you're
0:24:56 not gonna have to take polytheistic
0:24:59 religions
0:25:00 seriously especially if those
0:25:02 polytheistic religions entail thing like
0:25:04 worshiping gods that were born
0:25:07 um so if that becomes something you can
0:25:10 write polytheism off
0:25:12 um
0:25:13 completely if you look into
0:25:15 uh like trinitarianism and you don't you
0:25:17 don't find that to be
0:25:19 rational then you can write out you know
0:25:22 all the different forms of christianity
0:25:24 um for example and if you're left if
0:25:27 long story short for whatever reason
0:25:28 you're left with monotheism there's not
0:25:30 that many
0:25:31 monotheistic religions left as uh
0:25:34 contenders you've you've got like a few
0:25:37 um
0:25:38 and it's just a case of okay do i need
0:25:40 to look into every single one of these
0:25:42 now well not even then like you could
0:25:44 look at some of the you can maybe begin
0:25:46 with the most um the large ones it's not
0:25:48 a necessity for their truth so you
0:25:50 wouldn't just jump into it based on the
0:25:51 fact that
0:25:52 they have the most followers um but it
0:25:55 would be a good place to start okay what
0:25:56 kind of claims are they making um do
0:25:59 these claims make sense to me and if
0:26:01 they do make sense to you
0:26:03 and uh you know the the propositions
0:26:06 they're putting forward
0:26:07 um
0:26:08 seem rational and they have evidences
0:26:10 for them um then at that point if you
0:26:13 become convinced of it it can be
0:26:15 justified to accept that particular
0:26:17 religion
0:26:18 see what i've noticed yourself is and
0:26:20 i've seen this with a lot of converts to
0:26:22 islam is
0:26:24 you know they might not necessarily have
0:26:28 the way of articulating in a very
0:26:30 explicit way in terms of why they became
0:26:33 muslim
0:26:34 but i think there's a process of a form
0:26:36 of abduction filtering process they get
0:26:39 convinced upon a god claim and there
0:26:41 might be you know irrational good
0:26:43 rational reasons why they believe in a
0:26:44 creator
0:26:46 and so
0:26:47 you know as we said at the beginning
0:26:48 then they'll be looking for okay there
0:26:50 are lots of people claiming divine so
0:26:52 they they've got to go for a process of
0:26:54 investigation to a certain extent
0:26:57 and then they come across
0:26:59 sort of islam
0:27:01 and the various
0:27:03 you know implicit filters as you sort of
0:27:06 mentioned
0:27:07 they sort of go through that and see
0:27:09 that islam is sort of like from an
0:27:11 abducted perspective fits as the best
0:27:14 explanation of what they would see as a
0:27:17 god claim yeah
0:27:18 uh i don't know if that's uh if that's
0:27:21 the case yourself
0:27:23 yeah definitely like because what you're
0:27:25 saying is that okay if there is a
0:27:27 religion what would i expect well i'd
0:27:29 expect there to be some sort of clear
0:27:31 book for example
0:27:33 um maybe uh maybe you don't but there's
0:27:36 like
0:27:37 each person is going to put forward the
0:27:39 type of things that maybe they would be
0:27:40 saying that they would expect and then
0:27:42 they could go out and look there
0:27:44 yeah for those expectations um with
0:27:46 regards to
0:27:48 monotheism for example
0:27:50 you might want or you might think okay
0:27:52 well if monotheism is the one that makes
0:27:53 sense
0:27:54 there's going to be a clear emphasis on
0:27:56 monotheism
0:27:58 and so you would then look into these
0:27:59 things um maybe for example like another
0:28:02 thing for me was a case of trying to
0:28:04 determine between the three
0:28:06 um religions
0:28:08 in particular judaism christianity and
0:28:11 islam one of the things that helped me
0:28:13 pick islam as well was the notion of
0:28:14 jesus ali sinan
0:28:17 he struck me as a character that did
0:28:18 exist i just could not get behind the
0:28:20 idea that he was
0:28:21 a god
0:28:22 um at all and so and even reading the
0:28:25 bible like you only really get that
0:28:27 sense in one of the four books i think
0:28:30 it's the last one is it john yeah like
0:28:32 all of these like extra strange
0:28:34 propositions about jesus being one with
0:28:37 the father etc um they're all in there
0:28:40 and then none of them are in the books
0:28:41 that come prior to that um you've got
0:28:43 just this repetition in all the other
0:28:45 books of this notion of jesus being
0:28:47 someone who worships god being a man
0:28:50 and like that to me just made a lot more
0:28:53 sense and when you take
0:28:55 jesus as being a man
0:28:56 things in the bible seem to fall into
0:28:58 place a lot more than this sort of
0:29:01 forcing a trinitarian idea upon it um
0:29:04 so i couldn't accept trinitarianism for
0:29:06 that one of those reasons um and then
0:29:09 looking at judaism it's okay well if
0:29:11 jesus is someone who is pushing the
0:29:13 worship of the one true god and that no
0:29:15 one is worthy of worship except the
0:29:16 father and he's um
0:29:18 you know he's saying all of these things
0:29:20 which i find to be quite
0:29:22 monotheistic well what do the jews say
0:29:24 about him or whether they're um
0:29:28 saying he's in hell they're saying that
0:29:30 his mother's in hell they're said to be
0:29:31 the um they're supposed to have been a
0:29:33 light unto the earth
0:29:35 um a guidance for all nations
0:29:37 but you do you see them
0:29:39 calling people to the worship of that
0:29:41 one true god do you see them engaging in
0:29:43 any missionary work do you see them
0:29:45 doing that which they would you would
0:29:47 think uh they would be obligated to do
0:29:50 to bring people who are not worshiping
0:29:52 the one true god to worship that one
0:29:54 true god um you don't see that at all in
0:29:57 fact in many cases you might even see
0:29:59 them do anti-down and so
0:30:01 someone's interested in becoming a jew
0:30:03 they might tell you oh you don't need to
0:30:04 don't worry about it it's fine um you
0:30:06 know you just follow the no hide laws
0:30:09 and
0:30:10 keep to yourself um and you know you can
0:30:13 look at these things and say okay well
0:30:16 this just doesn't fall in line with me
0:30:17 and then you're looking at say islam and
0:30:19 it's what what does islam say about isa
0:30:21 alaysalam or jesus i was saying he's a
0:30:23 man that he worships one god and the
0:30:26 message that he's bringing within the
0:30:28 islamic picture is consistent with the
0:30:30 message that all the previous prophets
0:30:33 brought to the degree that jews are
0:30:35 allowed to pray in mosques but they're
0:30:36 not allowed to pray
0:30:38 in churches
0:30:39 and there's you could there's plenty of
0:30:41 examples like there's um
0:30:44 a jewish brother that we were speaking
0:30:46 to on my channel
0:30:47 his channel is called blessed is hashem
0:30:49 to the degree that he even says that he
0:30:51 has no problem saying allahu akbar
0:30:53 like he and he says it and he doesn't
0:30:56 feel any guilt or shame when he
0:30:58 expresses that statement and he just
0:30:59 says i'll repeat it over and over and
0:31:01 over again because he really does
0:31:02 believe and consider and this isn't just
0:31:04 his opinion he's getting this opinion
0:31:06 from his rabbis um that the muslims do
0:31:09 worship the same god as the god of the
0:31:11 jews
0:31:12 and so
0:31:13 you know
0:31:14 when you're looking at it like this the
0:31:16 picture becomes quite clear
0:31:18 and you can like at that point
0:31:21 especially if like
0:31:23 someone's trying to say oh well what
0:31:24 about thor so well thor was born
0:31:26 i'm not interested in thought and if
0:31:28 you're gonna bring anything else that's
0:31:30 you know something that was dependent
0:31:31 upon something that came before it
0:31:32 something that had its it had itself
0:31:34 needs
0:31:36 this to me isn't something worthy of
0:31:37 worship for me it's just about getting
0:31:39 so the greatest thing that that which is
0:31:41 responsible for all of this whatever is
0:31:43 at the top of that hierarchy that's the
0:31:45 thing that's getting my worship
0:31:47 and so what is it that's directed me
0:31:49 towards that for me it was islam
0:31:52 yeah just um
0:31:54 so i just wanted to a few messages so uh
0:31:57 why they come salaam to mohammed
0:32:00 who's joined us uh give salaams and also
0:32:02 other people
0:32:05 also kavalu russo has mentioned this i
0:32:06 think it's probably having a
0:32:07 conversation in the chat but you know
0:32:09 part of the discussion today
0:32:12 is what with what joseph has mentioned
0:32:14 is an abductive argument uh to a certain
0:32:17 extent uh that we're having for islam
0:32:20 it's strange to be saying that while i'm
0:32:22 giving
0:32:23 certain reasons
0:32:24 i know that's my point but
0:32:27 [Music]
0:32:30 because we want to maybe break it down
0:32:31 even more in terms of the actual
0:32:33 criteria to filter out because i think
0:32:35 that's the point we need to have
0:32:37 rational filters to say okay yeah
0:32:39 there's 10 000 god claims but have i got
0:32:42 legitimate rational filters to filter
0:32:44 out all the religions so that i have a
0:32:47 manageable set of religions i think
0:32:50 yours have made the point earlier as
0:32:51 well is that you can group religions
0:32:53 together so if you've got polytheistic
0:32:57 religions
0:32:58 and monotheistic religions or religions
0:33:01 which depict god as a contingent being
0:33:04 you can group them into different
0:33:05 classes uh like this but mustaching
0:33:08 before we go into that uh the the
0:33:10 correct criteria uh according to the the
0:33:13 you know research and the work that
0:33:15 you've done on this subject area what
0:33:17 are you would say the incorrect because
0:33:19 i think this is an important point the
0:33:21 incorrect criteria that can be used
0:33:25 right just to obviously recap so
0:33:27 obviously what we've mentioned up to now
0:33:28 um
0:33:30 is that just because you know like
0:33:31 there's many religions um therefore our
0:33:34 fault we've obviously obviously refuted
0:33:36 that claim
0:33:37 um
0:33:38 in terms of and just another point as
0:33:40 well just before i answer your point the
0:33:42 question is when when they say thousands
0:33:45 of religions
0:33:46 um
0:33:48 what they actually mean by that they
0:33:49 don't mean a thousand religions that
0:33:51 exist today they mean you know
0:33:53 throughout history so it's not necessary
0:33:55 that there's actually a thousand
0:33:56 religions today just to make that clear
0:33:59 and number two
0:34:00 when you actually see the how they
0:34:03 categorize religions they include like
0:34:05 sects of christianity as independent
0:34:07 religions and that's how they get come
0:34:09 up with like a large figure so they
0:34:10 might include you know like protestants
0:34:13 you know jehovah's witness mormonism as
0:34:15 a separate religion or ahmedism
0:34:17 um or you know shia sunni as separate
0:34:20 religions but if you categorize them
0:34:22 under like
0:34:23 um religion i.e you know jehovah's
0:34:26 witness
0:34:27 uh mormonism under christianity and you
0:34:29 did sunnisha under islam then you
0:34:31 actually narrowed down the quantity of
0:34:33 religion so i just don't
0:34:35 just because i can imagine some people
0:34:37 in the audience because you mentioned
0:34:38 ahmadis
0:34:40 as well and you categorize them but
0:34:42 you're saying from a non-muslim point of
0:34:44 view you're not talking about from a
0:34:45 muslim point of view because obviously
0:34:49 so yeah so obviously once you've got the
0:34:52 umbrella
0:34:53 yeah
0:34:54 with that let's say a person has the
0:34:56 umbrella of christianity that he thinks
0:34:57 is rationally true
0:34:59 then he then has to make a decision
0:35:01 within the umbrella of which particular
0:35:03 sex the same thing with regards to
0:35:05 islamic muslim if he's got the umbrella
0:35:07 yeah that okay islam seems to fit within
0:35:10 the rational criteria to investigate so
0:35:12 not even say it's true to investigate
0:35:14 exactly then he might go further and
0:35:16 investigate which particular sect would
0:35:18 be the correct one yeah yes
0:35:21 the audience is not going to flip
0:35:23 definitely exactly for clarifier
0:35:26 to the point so obviously in terms of
0:35:28 like the rational filters i think yusuf
0:35:29 obviously explained
0:35:31 but the incorrect ones i won't know what
0:35:32 the incorrect ones could be because
0:35:34 there's a lot of people that would use
0:35:36 incorrect
0:35:38 for example history
0:35:39 people often use history as a way to
0:35:42 justify maybe they would say well
0:35:45 you know i cannot accept for example
0:35:48 i've heard this most some christians
0:35:50 will say i can't accept islam to be true
0:35:52 because they deny the crucifixion of
0:35:54 jesus therefore it must be first yeah no
0:35:57 okay so i just wanted to firstly um
0:35:59 before i answer that question just to
0:36:01 clarify you know the concept of like
0:36:02 rational like filters
0:36:04 so obviously a rational filter in
0:36:06 essence is just like um we filter out
0:36:08 many religions so let's take for example
0:36:11 you know youtube you know if you're
0:36:12 looking for a very specific video out of
0:36:15 thousands of videos you might filter it
0:36:17 you know by like type upload date
0:36:19 duration you know ratings and obviously
0:36:22 the more filters in essence the more
0:36:24 filters you apply you start to like
0:36:26 narrow down the options or even let's
0:36:28 say marriage for example if you're
0:36:29 looking for a partner you might filter
0:36:31 it by you know religion your race maybe
0:36:34 you know location
0:36:35 and again the more filters you start
0:36:37 applying that's how you narrow down
0:36:39 between like thousands of options
0:36:41 and obviously another point just to
0:36:43 mention if the foundations of a religion
0:36:46 are flawed
0:36:47 then imam razi actually mentions this so
0:36:50 the foundations of the religion are
0:36:51 flawed the details on top are
0:36:53 unnecessary
0:36:54 so
0:36:55 if we have a religious scripture that
0:36:57 says one plus one is three
0:36:59 uh we could actually dismiss that from
0:37:01 the surface from the foundational level
0:37:03 because uh and we won't need to
0:37:04 investigate obviously any like details
0:37:06 coming on to obviously questions so you
0:37:08 said um what did you say about the terms
0:37:10 of the criterias the incorrect ones
0:37:13 including the incorrect ones yeah and i
0:37:15 gave the example of the christians who
0:37:17 will claim that islam can be discounted
0:37:20 because uh history
0:37:23 uh says that jesus was crucified and its
0:37:26 muslims don't believe yes so so the
0:37:28 thing is we have obviously different
0:37:29 types of criteria so we have necessary
0:37:31 criteria and that we have possible
0:37:33 criteria so possible criterion essence
0:37:36 is basically where you're imposing your
0:37:38 religion onto god i god should say this
0:37:41 so let's say for example
0:37:43 a possible criteria might be a religion
0:37:45 for a religion to be true it must say
0:37:47 pray five times a day that's obviously
0:37:50 circular reasoning because it doesn't
0:37:51 have to be five it could be four free it
0:37:54 doesn't even have to be you know you
0:37:55 don't have maybe it might be like god
0:37:57 could inspire religion to not to pray
0:37:59 for example um or for example the
0:38:02 religion must say you know there must be
0:38:04 i don't know scientific miracles or
0:38:06 in the text it doesn't have to be the
0:38:08 case so possible criteria obviously
0:38:11 where it doesn't have to be the case
0:38:13 um and obviously we wouldn't use them
0:38:15 criterias we would obviously use
0:38:17 necessary criteria
0:38:19 uh obviously a necessary criteria is
0:38:20 what the religion
0:38:22 um for the religion to be from god it
0:38:24 must have this criteria but with
0:38:26 possible criteria where it doesn't have
0:38:28 to be we wouldn't use such criteria when
0:38:30 it comes to improving islam
0:38:32 yeah so i think it has to be yeah yeah
0:38:35 so and i think also the other point is
0:38:37 this is that with a with an incorrect
0:38:39 criteria that people sometimes use
0:38:41 because the point here is this is a
0:38:43 criteria that you're using to filter out
0:38:46 should be
0:38:47 of a quite a high bar
0:38:49 yeah because you're trying to filter
0:38:51 you're not trying to necessarily
0:38:53 determine which one's the truth even
0:38:55 though it can help form you to
0:38:57 understand what the truth is
0:38:58 so
0:38:59 the point here is this is that if his
0:39:01 historians have said x about something
0:39:04 that occurred two thousand three
0:39:06 thousand years ago yeah
0:39:08 the epistemic level of that conclusion
0:39:12 historical event is never going to be
0:39:14 100
0:39:15 yeah they're reconstructing the past
0:39:18 based upon the available data and the
0:39:20 available data will always be a certain
0:39:22 level incomplete yeah
0:39:24 and so therefore you know for example
0:39:26 there are claims within um
0:39:30 within other religions like for example
0:39:32 as an example christianity
0:39:34 talks about and you know the bible talks
0:39:37 about the exodus of moses and he talks
0:39:39 about there being one or two million
0:39:41 people that left egypt now for me i
0:39:44 wouldn't use that as a as a criteria to
0:39:46 dismiss christianity and the bible to be
0:39:48 untrue necessarily
0:39:50 just because history does not record
0:39:53 the fact that you know a million plus or
0:39:56 two million plus although it's
0:39:58 implausible or highly impossible it
0:40:00 doesn't necessarily mean it's impossible
0:40:03 for that occurred yeah so i wouldn't use
0:40:07 that uh and in the same way i think
0:40:09 other people they use other criteria as
0:40:11 well for example uh maybe bring yourself
0:40:14 in like for example they might use moral
0:40:16 arguments like uh oh you believe in
0:40:20 x
0:40:21 therefore islam must be untrue
0:40:24 you know you believe that this
0:40:26 particular act is morally good whereas
0:40:28 we believe it's morally bad now like
0:40:30 maybe the hadood laws you know
0:40:33 uh things like that so i don't know if
0:40:34 you've got any thoughts in regards to
0:40:36 that particular type of argument oh by
0:40:38 the way just uh giving also uh give
0:40:40 salams and jazakallah khashoggi mohammed
0:40:42 uh
0:40:43 jazz uh jessie muddin
0:40:45 uh for the superstition
0:40:49 so do you want me to go into why ethical
0:40:52 responses aren't necessarily
0:40:55 refuted yeah
0:40:57 yeah okay so yeah basically a lot of the
0:40:59 time especially when you're dealing with
0:41:01 lay people
0:41:03 it's it is rooted in the intuition like
0:41:05 they just sort of say ah i don't like
0:41:07 that is that well that's
0:41:09 like not a good reason to reject
0:41:11 something um you know because
0:41:14 the traditionalist
0:41:16 says a similar thing sometimes when it
0:41:17 comes to certain principles the layman
0:41:20 um believer it be that you know an old
0:41:23 irish woman
0:41:24 uh for example who's a catholic or you
0:41:26 know a traditional
0:41:28 uh pakistani uncle
0:41:30 from the subcontinent when when they're
0:41:32 looking at certain things they go no no
0:41:34 no um
0:41:36 i don't like this or you know this is
0:41:37 something that where i'm from we don't
0:41:39 like this you're not going to accept
0:41:40 that as a genuine refutation off the
0:41:43 thing that they are rejecting here um
0:41:45 because you're just basing it off a
0:41:47 particular intuition uh so you need to
0:41:50 give
0:41:50 reasons because this is the whole point
0:41:52 of being rational isn't like
0:41:54 why is it
0:41:56 that this particular thing
0:41:58 is good or evil like what is what
0:42:01 principles do you uphold or abide to in
0:42:04 order to then apply it to any particular
0:42:07 example or um you know practical
0:42:10 situation
0:42:11 and then use this these principles or
0:42:14 this methodology to then evaluate this
0:42:17 and say oh this is good or bad most
0:42:19 people are not doing that
0:42:21 and most people are just reacting and
0:42:23 they're just saying i don't like the
0:42:24 sound of that and
0:42:27 you know that's just not
0:42:29 that's not an argument that's not um it
0:42:31 means to refute so you'd have to if
0:42:33 you're going to make those kind of
0:42:35 claims there's a lot of leg work that
0:42:37 has to go in and some people do try to
0:42:39 do that some people do have
0:42:41 ethical positions that they have fought
0:42:43 out but as far as i find for the most
0:42:45 part that's just not generally what
0:42:47 happens
0:42:48 yeah
0:42:49 so mr you're going to say no no nothing
0:42:52 very much here but it's just more the
0:42:53 point is them criteria is obviously
0:42:56 would be subjective criterias obviously
0:42:57 and now what we've mentioned is you know
0:43:00 what the criteria is which i'm going to
0:43:01 mention after um obviously when we're
0:43:03 using to judge what religion is true
0:43:05 we're using
0:43:06 a necessary criteria that i
0:43:09 if god is to inspire a way of life then
0:43:11 it must have the following
0:43:13 um so we've obviously
0:43:14 what we need to stick to is the
0:43:16 necessary criteria and what are the
0:43:18 necessary criteria i mean i can um go
0:43:21 into it yeah we'll we'll get on to that
0:43:22 one
0:43:23 question what would what's the first
0:43:25 criteria for correct religion right
0:43:28 firstly um i would say a religion
0:43:31 to be true or inspired by god it must
0:43:34 have a belief in god to begin with and
0:43:36 obviously that makes sense
0:43:38 because we get this idea and i hear this
0:43:40 a lot by atheists that you know everyone
0:43:42 claims their way is right that's
0:43:44 actually not necessarily the case and
0:43:46 not every religion
0:43:48 has god like as a central aspect of
0:43:50 their religion or even the idea of god
0:43:53 um it might be something more private so
0:43:55 let's take for example
0:43:56 buddhism shintoism confusionism tiresome
0:44:01 a lot of these ancient chinese religions
0:44:03 don't have a
0:44:04 belief in god in their religion whether
0:44:07 they believe in god as a separate but
0:44:08 within their text they don't actually
0:44:09 have a belief in god god's not a central
0:44:11 aspect to that religion so by using the
0:44:13 principle necessary criteria number one
0:44:16 that a religion to be inspired by god it
0:44:18 should have a belief in god
0:44:20 we've already then filtered out a lot of
0:44:21 these religions that are atheistic you
0:44:24 could say
0:44:25 that's the first one uh second one
0:44:27 before we go into the second one uh so
0:44:31 so i think obviously just to reiterate
0:44:33 the point
0:44:34 this assumes that we've rationally
0:44:36 proven the existence but all that we
0:44:38 have rational reasonable reasons why
0:44:40 believe believe in a creator in first
0:44:41 place and so therefore what we're
0:44:43 looking for
0:44:45 is some sort of communication from the
0:44:47 creator in order to satisfy this
0:44:48 desiring human beings to worship
0:44:51 so we're looking for that so now
0:44:52 somebody's saying this is the guidance
0:44:54 to follow but it doesn't even form that
0:44:56 relationship with the creator exactly
0:44:58 then it's like well
0:45:00 no that doesn't seem to be what i'm
0:45:02 looking for
0:45:05 or they can even say all paths are true
0:45:07 paths yeah do you hear that as well
0:45:09 we'll get on through that as well and
0:45:11 yes but that is linked to this so where
0:45:13 they're saying ah but um
0:45:15 i'm just reiterating the point that you
0:45:16 made that uh you know some not even
0:45:19 claiming
0:45:20 to have guys
0:45:21 or anything like that and and some are
0:45:23 making claims about maybe having a
0:45:25 guidance
0:45:26 um but the every other guidance is true
0:45:29 as well and it's making this claim
0:45:31 despite the fact that the things that
0:45:33 it's pointing towards might contradict
0:45:35 or
0:45:36 deny
0:45:37 the very religion that they're affirming
0:45:40 um so
0:45:41 that could obviously if you're going to
0:45:42 move into i don't know um
0:45:44 well that was that's my second so yeah
0:45:46 initially the first criteria would be
0:45:48 obviously to believe in a perhaps to
0:45:50 have a belief in god the second second
0:45:52 one is that um it should claim so like
0:45:54 he said it could claim to be from god
0:45:56 and the reason why is because imagine
0:45:58 like you know god's inspiring a book but
0:46:00 he's not claiming it so how would we
0:46:02 know ever that is inspired by god i
0:46:04 would say that's a necessary criteria
0:46:06 and even just to claim that their
0:46:08 religion is divine only a few religions
0:46:10 actually make that claim not every
0:46:13 religion claims to be divine only a very
0:46:15 few so again if we applied that filter
0:46:17 number two then we've already filtered
0:46:19 more religions out
0:46:21 and the final one i was going to mention
0:46:22 here
0:46:26 as well which was that because it's not
0:46:28 just about god claim is it it's about
0:46:30 one god claim
0:46:32 the religion should be monotheistic not
0:46:35 polytheistic
0:46:36 yep is that right yeah
0:46:38 that's in my finger by what i'm doing
0:46:40 i'm making it more from a natural flow
0:46:41 but obviously
0:46:43 second actually that you should have a
0:46:44 belief in one god but also what yusuf
0:46:47 mentioned which is very important
0:46:49 it should claim to be
0:46:51 not just should it claim to be from god
0:46:52 but it should claim to be the only truth
0:46:54 from god why
0:46:56 because
0:46:57 every religion pretty much contradicts
0:46:59 each other fundamental level like from a
0:47:01 theological level so one religion might
0:47:02 say one god another says three
0:47:05 so
0:47:06 if it doesn't claim to if it says all
0:47:08 religions are right that means it's
0:47:09 contradictory right
0:47:12 okay so let me understand this then so
0:47:14 there could be a situation that god
0:47:16 revealed multiple religions
0:47:19 to different people
0:47:22 yeah maybe in the past isn't it
0:47:23 different profits sent to different
0:47:24 people because they didn't meet each
0:47:26 other
0:47:27 so
0:47:28 wouldn't that refute that point no but
0:47:30 the essence i.e the essence the basic
0:47:32 theology must remain consistent because
0:47:34 god can't transition from being one god
0:47:36 to two gods to three gods laws can
0:47:39 obviously change throughout time
0:47:40 obviously because circumstances change
0:47:42 but actually the actual basic theology
0:47:45 the nature of allah does not change
0:47:47 so
0:47:49 perfect to imperfect for example god
0:47:51 doesn't like say he's perfect in one
0:47:53 year then the next 100 years he becomes
0:47:55 like
0:47:56 imperfect right right
0:48:00 yeah so in essence basically
0:48:02 in in a practical pragmatic sense yeah
0:48:05 when we look at religions today there
0:48:08 are obviously going to be differences
0:48:10 that exist on the fundamental level yeah
0:48:13 so there may be differences in god
0:48:15 claims as an example
0:48:17 some religions believe in multiple gods
0:48:20 so obviously you're going to have a
0:48:21 situation where if they're saying well
0:48:24 you can believe in multiple gods and
0:48:26 every religion is true
0:48:28 one i can filter out the fact that
0:48:30 actually i think russian the only one
0:48:32 god can exist and secondly is well how
0:48:35 can that be true and any claiming to
0:48:38 also say that monotheistic beliefs are
0:48:40 also true yeah exactly because it seems
0:48:43 to be an apparent contradiction here
0:48:45 unless they do some weird
0:48:46 you know confusion can you know
0:48:49 confusion style maneuver
0:48:52 yeah
0:48:53 pincer movement going on there i don't
0:48:54 know so some weird stuff going on so
0:48:57 then then really you can dismiss that
0:49:00 because it would have to say and
0:49:01 similarly there may be even multiple
0:49:03 claims multiple religions that claim one
0:49:05 god
0:49:06 but they contradict in other areas for
0:49:09 example
0:49:10 you know muslims we believe that the
0:49:12 prophet peace be upon him is the final
0:49:14 prophet sikhs will claim that they
0:49:16 believe in one god but they believe in
0:49:18 prophets after the prophet muhammad
0:49:20 peace be upon him so both things cannot
0:49:22 be true sikhs actually believe the
0:49:24 prophet peace be upon him was a true
0:49:26 prophet yeah as well so both cannot be
0:49:28 true only one can be true yeah so
0:49:31 something called zikaism or whatever it
0:49:33 is whatever religion in the future says
0:49:34 oh all religions are true or have you
0:49:37 know uh you know are true and you can
0:49:39 follow whatever you want well that would
0:49:41 be wrong because you've got a
0:49:43 contradiction in regards to that i think
0:49:44 that's a really important point
0:49:47 so you can so the point the issue for
0:49:49 the audience is that you can eliminate a
0:49:51 numerous number of religions just based
0:49:54 on that
0:49:56 if they claim that or they're not
0:49:58 exclusively true it's currently in this
0:50:01 day and age
0:50:02 uh that all have truths then there's a
0:50:05 problem there because there are
0:50:06 contradictions between the claims and
0:50:08 there's actually another point just to
0:50:09 mention so we mentioned that about the
0:50:11 one two three
0:50:12 points there the fourth point to mention
0:50:14 so we said obviously should have a
0:50:15 belief in god uh should obviously claim
0:50:18 to be from god it should be claimed to
0:50:20 be the only truth from god and obviously
0:50:22 should be monotheistic but also it
0:50:24 should be it should have a perfect
0:50:26 conception of god so i mean like a
0:50:28 concept of god that has no weakness no
0:50:31 limitation no deficiencies like for
0:50:34 example we read you know in certain
0:50:35 religions where you know god's wrestling
0:50:37 and he's losing a resting match or he's
0:50:39 getting re tired refreshing he's losing
0:50:43 um
0:50:44 that obviously by definition god is
0:50:46 perfect
0:50:47 um
0:50:48 but if you're having a religious not
0:50:50 saying god is not perfect that's
0:50:51 actually being i you're personifying god
0:50:54 um i would say
0:50:55 as a contingent being yeah being a
0:50:57 dependent being like you know you have
0:50:59 in other religions like in hinduism
0:51:01 where god is you know
0:51:02 he requires to be fed um or god's one
0:51:05 god overpowering the other god someone's
0:51:08 dependent on the other so yeah i think
0:51:10 that's an also necessary
0:51:12 criteria to have that a religion to be
0:51:14 from god it must have a perfect
0:51:15 conception of god based about what we
0:51:17 already know from rationally what god is
0:51:20 yeah yeah again like i said uh this
0:51:23 assumes that we've had rational
0:51:25 reasonable reasons to believe in one
0:51:26 creator and then from that we're then
0:51:29 narrowing it down yeah so even if you as
0:51:31 an atheist you might say oh i don't
0:51:33 believe god exists you can understand
0:51:35 now hopefully you can understand at the
0:51:36 very least that if
0:51:38 that
0:51:39 hurdle is overcome the obstacle in that
0:51:41 person's minds are coming they believe
0:51:42 now there is one god you can now filter
0:51:45 out all these ten thousand god claims in
0:51:47 order to come to one god claim okay so
0:51:50 what about um so we've got you've got
0:51:52 four criteria that you've laid down
0:51:54 there what about the fifth one uh in
0:51:56 terms of i think you mentioned about
0:51:58 preservation of the text
0:52:00 yeah so the first obviously category was
0:52:02 unnecessary criteria in regards to just
0:52:04 um allah that we mentioned
0:52:07 a second one would be like the second
0:52:09 cartoon i'd say preservation like
0:52:11 you know for a religion to be from god
0:52:13 the text must be preserved
0:52:16 and the reason for this
0:52:18 uh which i'll ask you for as well
0:52:20 because how would we distinguish between
0:52:21 what is from god and what is from man
0:52:23 essentially if like for example
0:52:25 you know god's right um
0:52:27 if 45 is from god and you know the
0:52:30 remaining is from human beings you know
0:52:32 what i mean how are we going to know
0:52:33 what's from god what's from man
0:52:35 uh i think that preservation
0:52:38 definitely is essential criteria um for
0:52:40 um it's a necessity for a religion to be
0:52:43 from god uh maybe yusuf you can expand
0:52:45 on why you think that's the case as well
0:52:51 you muted yourself well i can't hear you
0:52:54 no yeah i was muted okay the
0:52:55 preservation is um important i think uh
0:52:58 because if people are adding to it and
0:53:00 changing it
0:53:01 um
0:53:02 at that point it becomes difficult to be
0:53:04 able to determine
0:53:06 what is from god and what isn't so you
0:53:08 know the bible being an example of that
0:53:10 it's pretty much
0:53:12 um undeniable at this point that changes
0:53:14 have been made if you look at the new
0:53:16 king james translation there's
0:53:18 versus i think missing uh from that that
0:53:21 were in the original king james um
0:53:23 because things were being added and
0:53:25 stuff like that and
0:53:27 obviously that is
0:53:28 problematic because at that point if you
0:53:31 can't really determine what is wahi or
0:53:32 what is
0:53:33 um revelation
0:53:36 uh you
0:53:37 you could be basing many propositions
0:53:39 about your religion on something that
0:53:41 isn't
0:53:42 is a lie or is just not about god at all
0:53:44 um yeah that's interesting because
0:53:46 actually what's quite interesting is um
0:53:49 with
0:53:50 the gospel of mark the ending of mark 16
0:53:52 chapter 16
0:53:54 that ending you know christians
0:53:55 throughout hundreds of years were
0:53:57 reading that as though it was inspired
0:53:59 and then when recent manuscripts came
0:54:00 out that were discovered they realized
0:54:02 that was an insertion that was a forgery
0:54:05 that was added later but all that time
0:54:07 christians for thousands of years we're
0:54:09 reading that as thought it was in spite
0:54:11 yeah yeah
0:54:12 and obviously that's uh
0:54:15 that is problematic um there's other
0:54:17 things as well
0:54:19 uh so it's not just preservation like
0:54:20 the lack of contradictions which sort of
0:54:22 alluded to in the previous points as
0:54:23 well
0:54:24 um and for me
0:54:27 like one of my
0:54:28 major experiences of reading the quran
0:54:31 was just his consistent sense of wisdom
0:54:33 when reading it so it's it's you know
0:54:36 all of these injunctions and these
0:54:37 things i was asking myself you know if
0:54:39 i applied these in my life would that
0:54:42 might make my life worse or better so if
0:54:45 i gave up if i abstained from things
0:54:47 like alcohol zina pornography xyz
0:54:50 whatever it was um
0:54:53 interest
0:54:54 is my life going to be better or worse
0:54:56 and the answer to this was
0:54:58 a wholesale it would be much better and
0:55:00 not just that but for the people that
0:55:02 were around me you know growing up in
0:55:03 the council estate
0:55:05 in north england
0:55:06 you know these things that are being
0:55:08 forbidden within islam were causing huge
0:55:10 problems
0:55:11 um throughout
0:55:13 the entirety of the i would say even the
0:55:15 west not even just the uk but um you
0:55:17 know people
0:55:19 where we grew up didn't really have uh
0:55:21 present fathers a lot you know that was
0:55:23 a very rare thing most people
0:55:25 um had single parent mothers
0:55:28 um who
0:55:30 you know
0:55:31 fathers were either in prison
0:55:33 uh addicted to something not present off
0:55:35 somewhere else unknown etc etc um and so
0:55:40 you know
0:55:41 you can when especially if you you're
0:55:42 going through the negative consequences
0:55:44 of the um a society that allows these
0:55:47 things to take place or to happen
0:55:50 um you can start to see the wisdom i
0:55:52 think in
0:55:53 um restricting the use of these type of
0:55:55 things um
0:55:57 so that's i would say another thing like
0:55:59 the wisdom in the book reading it having
0:56:01 an experience with that
0:56:03 as um being wise and then the
0:56:05 consistency so for example
0:56:07 people try to say or claim sometimes
0:56:09 that
0:56:09 uh the prophet muhammad wrote the quran
0:56:12 or
0:56:13 you know but there's there's a huge
0:56:15 distinction they did a test on this as
0:56:16 well between the hadith and the the
0:56:18 quran or the verses of quran
0:56:20 and
0:56:21 they seem to both have
0:56:23 one author so the you know the hadith
0:56:26 have a consistency throughout them and
0:56:28 they talk in a very certain way they use
0:56:29 very certain language um and the quran
0:56:32 has a very consistent way of um
0:56:35 communicating and it talks in a
0:56:37 particular way uses certain language and
0:56:38 that you can identify them as being like
0:56:41 two different authors um so a bunch of
0:56:44 these things in conjunction together
0:56:46 and and then there's the interesting
0:56:48 things of um like the predictions that
0:56:50 it makes uh there's a really good
0:56:52 channel
0:56:52 from a
0:56:54 mutual friend of ours um many profits
0:56:57 one message
0:56:58 it's just a plethora of really really
0:57:00 good videos that go into detail about a
0:57:02 lot of these things and like for example
0:57:03 historical miracles so there's one where
0:57:06 like people claim oh the quran just
0:57:08 copied from the bible the quran just
0:57:10 copied from the bible well if that's the
0:57:11 case it would have copied its mistakes
0:57:13 as well
0:57:14 but the quran is very selective in terms
0:57:16 of
0:57:17 the which stories that it brings into
0:57:20 the quran that you can find present in
0:57:23 the bible and
0:57:25 when it does that
0:57:27 it does it in such a way that it it
0:57:29 removes mistakes um that weren't even
0:57:32 really known as mistakes so you had the
0:57:34 the example of uh the king
0:57:36 um that yusuf al-islam i think was sold
0:57:39 to
0:57:40 say in the quran he's not referred to as
0:57:42 a pharaoh but if you look at the uh the
0:57:45 bible
0:57:46 the
0:57:46 the same word for the pharaoh of um that
0:57:50 was at the time of muslim is being used
0:57:53 for the the king or the ruler of uh the
0:57:56 time of yusuf alayhi salaam as well and
0:57:58 the quran specifically uses different
0:58:00 words for both of these characters
0:58:03 and the bible doesn't the bible uses the
0:58:05 same one and there's obviously recent
0:58:07 findings and things that go check out
0:58:09 the video um
0:58:11 on many prophets one message but recent
0:58:13 findings show that the quran's use of a
0:58:15 different word here was more accurate
0:58:19 uh and true to history than say the
0:58:21 bible was
0:58:22 but you know it raises questions
0:58:24 where this
0:58:25 knowledge comes from exactly
0:58:28 so so just really quickly just to recap
0:58:31 because i want to address this question
0:58:32 as well by the way uh that s on i was
0:58:35 going to call him professor and then
0:58:37 so s sounds raised yeah but before just
0:58:41 i think it's it's an obvious point which
0:58:43 is that something has to be preserved
0:58:44 but there has to be a way of knowing
0:58:47 what how it's preserved as well because
0:58:49 i don't think i think there's very few
0:58:51 religions out there that would claim
0:58:53 that their religion is not preserved
0:58:56 but there's very very few that can
0:58:58 demonstrate how it's preserved yeah so
0:59:02 a mustache you're gonna say
0:59:04 well just two points actually um
0:59:06 obviously the quran is actually the only
0:59:08 book on the planet that actually makes
0:59:10 the claim that it will be preserved in
0:59:12 future tense and then obviously we can
0:59:14 demonstrate like you said it is
0:59:16 it has in fact been preserved in four
0:59:18 ways
0:59:19 by the text you know the ancient
0:59:21 manuscripts that we've discovered by you
0:59:24 know the arabic language i.e in meaning
0:59:27 preserved in meaning
0:59:28 and preserved by memorization and even
0:59:32 touch weed which is quite important in
0:59:33 terms of how the words yeah are
0:59:35 pronounced uh but yeah you can carry on
0:59:38 no that's a really important point
0:59:39 because when we talk about preservation
0:59:42 i think people don't really appreciate
0:59:43 what we mean by preservation here and i
0:59:45 think that you martial you really made
0:59:47 it a good point because we talk about
0:59:49 preservation in text
0:59:51 i the actual wording that's being used
0:59:54 preservation in
0:59:56 meaning which means you have to preserve
0:59:58 the language as it was spoken at time of
1:00:01 the prophet peace be upon him yeah
1:00:03 because obviously as we know
1:00:05 language evolves and language is based
1:00:07 on convention so as the conventions of
1:00:10 language changes so does the meaning you
1:00:12 know and i give the the example of you
1:00:14 know 100 years ago if you wrote if you
1:00:17 read the literature and it said stephen
1:00:19 was gay then he's talking about how
1:00:22 stephen was very happy yeah i think
1:00:25 although i didn't mean even any
1:00:31 yeah but obviously back now if we read
1:00:34 it in 21st century uh understanding then
1:00:37 obviously that has a very different
1:00:38 connotation that's right
1:00:40 so not only the the the arabs or the
1:00:43 muslims early muslims not only do they
1:00:45 preserve the text but they also preserve
1:00:46 the language so that's why we have books
1:00:48 of grammar books of morphology books of
1:00:51 balaga which is rhetoric books of idiot
1:00:54 which also relates to idioms all of
1:00:56 these things these phraseologies were
1:00:58 preserved in order to preserve the
1:00:59 meaning
1:01:00 dictionaries at a time in terms of
1:01:02 preserving what what the meanings was
1:01:04 but like i said not just the dictionary
1:01:06 but also the idioms the phraseologies
1:01:09 the grammatical forms as well so that's
1:01:12 the second aspect the third aspect that
1:01:14 you mentioned was preservation in what
1:01:17 was the third one that you mentioned
1:01:18 sorry
1:01:19 so it said reads and there's another one
1:01:21 as well language text memorization oh
1:01:24 memorization so they that the actual
1:01:26 verses themselves
1:01:28 of the text whether that's from hadith
1:01:29 or from the quran but particularly the
1:01:31 quran is it was memorized as well as not
1:01:34 just that we have manuscript
1:01:36 manuscript evidence
1:01:38 but also uh to demonstrate that there's
1:01:41 a transmission through the text
1:01:43 written text but also transmission
1:01:45 through oral memorization yeah uh from
1:01:48 generation to generation and the the
1:01:50 fourth aspect that you mentioned which
1:01:51 was ted read which is re again it shows
1:01:53 you how important they saw the
1:01:56 preservation of the text of the
1:01:58 religious text which was preservation of
1:02:01 even how to pronounce the letters and
1:02:03 the words of those particular texts
1:02:05 because again that can evolve over time
1:02:08 and just the fifth point just to mention
1:02:09 that this tajweed and this preservation
1:02:12 is universally agreed upon by all the
1:02:14 muslims so the way we pronounce the
1:02:15 quran
1:02:16 if you look across the muslim globe they
1:02:18 recite exactly the same way not just to
1:02:21 me in the words but even the how
1:02:24 yeah and they all agree upon it the
1:02:25 content from chapter one anyone who
1:02:28 has to try to learn tajweed as well is
1:02:30 gonna know how frustrating it can be
1:02:33 where like
1:02:35 your quran teacher is like
1:02:37 reigning in like i i'm still going over
1:02:40 sorafata i've been doing it for ages and
1:02:42 like i i feel like i'm saying it right
1:02:46 and he says something and i repeat it
1:02:48 and it to me it sounds like we're saying
1:02:50 the same thing and he's like no no no no
1:02:52 there's a difference and
1:02:53 you notice as well because as you do
1:02:56 manage to get a hang of certain ways of
1:02:59 saying certain arabic phrases you start
1:03:02 to notice it in other people so although
1:03:04 you might not notice your own mistakes
1:03:06 yet because it's still not registered
1:03:08 where you have learned how to correct
1:03:10 your mistakes and you know okay i used
1:03:12 to do it like this and now i'm supposed
1:03:13 to do it like this yeah when you hear
1:03:15 other people doing it you're acute to it
1:03:17 and then if you try to uh correct them
1:03:20 they can't hear it they feel like
1:03:21 they're saying the same thing and saying
1:03:22 no no no anger so then you've got this
1:03:25 evidence then of um like the the
1:03:27 strictness by which this is preserved at
1:03:29 the point where
1:03:30 like
1:03:31 how long you say something when you
1:03:33 should stop or um where your tongue
1:03:35 should be exactly when you're saying um
1:03:37 i still can't do it properly but you
1:03:39 know the the the dord
1:03:41 yeah
1:03:42 dawg like you've got to be very careful
1:03:45 your tongue isn't in the same place as
1:03:47 is when you're saying dao
1:03:49 basically yeah yeah and
1:03:51 there's all these like mad sort of
1:03:53 differences but they they took it really
1:03:55 seriously and like
1:03:56 it's so much detail well just to mention
1:03:58 because if you just slip a certain word
1:04:00 the meaning will change yeah yeah yeah
1:04:02 that's the point of it yeah but yeah so
1:04:05 before we
1:04:06 i'm gonna i'm gonna get off because i
1:04:08 need to
1:04:09 pedal home and i need to get ready for
1:04:11 bed and sort everything out but
1:04:13 uh yeah sorry
1:04:15 again
1:04:18 oh is it coming on
1:04:19 hopefully hopefully he got the timings
1:04:21 mixed up so that's the reason why
1:04:24 he could be
1:04:39 so i i want you to address this
1:04:41 particular question because okay
1:04:43 he's in he's an ex-muslim so he's not a
1:04:45 muslim uh he's one streams a few times
1:04:48 comes on other people's streams and he
1:04:49 said that look that first criteria about
1:04:52 god you're just basically using the
1:04:53 islamic god to discount all other
1:04:55 religions you know except islam because
1:04:58 it's the islamic god
1:04:59 no but the point the whole point is um
1:05:02 we've actually come to the conclusion of
1:05:04 this concept of god for a rational
1:05:05 process independent of the text so we're
1:05:08 not using the quran to say
1:05:11 therefore you know
1:05:12 god
1:05:13 is a necessary being the necessary being
1:05:15 and all this comes from pure you know
1:05:16 abstract um you know reasoning of like a
1:05:19 logical process so we're not using an
1:05:21 islamic concept rather it's the rational
1:05:23 concept of god and islam confirms
1:05:27 that rational concept of god that we've
1:05:29 obviously gone through obviously when
1:05:31 it's not this stream's not about going
1:05:32 through that we've obviously had
1:05:33 previous you know streams on that topic
1:05:36 about how we can come to know but if you
1:05:37 look watch the previous episodes about
1:05:40 um the necessary being the quran is not
1:05:42 mentioned once
1:05:44 no we're not mentioning
1:05:46 the quran that we're literally logically
1:05:48 you know we're reasoning um independent
1:05:50 of the text which i just said
1:05:52 so it's not like an islamic definition
1:05:54 of god we're not using the quran and
1:05:56 then justify it's not we're not it's not
1:05:58 like a circular reasoning we're using
1:06:00 independently rational reason you know
1:06:02 from the cosmological to the contingency
1:06:04 they're not
1:06:05 in the quran
1:06:10 but as i said rather it confirms the
1:06:12 rational proofs just uh confirms other
1:06:15 qurans are confirmed
1:06:18 there's a point isn't it which is uh
1:06:20 there's something called natural
1:06:21 theology
1:06:23 this idea that you can come to certain
1:06:24 aspects of god claims or belief in god
1:06:28 um
1:06:29 certain rational conclusions like for
1:06:31 example
1:06:32 many theaters out there whether that's
1:06:34 muslims or others
1:06:36 believe you can rationally come to the
1:06:38 conclusion that a creator exists that's
1:06:40 why you have people like joshua
1:06:41 rasmussen
1:06:42 uh william lane craig they all come to
1:06:44 the conclusion that a creator exists now
1:06:47 for them
1:06:48 they say that natural theology doesn't
1:06:50 get them to trinitarianism it just gets
1:06:52 them to monotheism yeah and then they
1:06:55 have other arguments or other attempts
1:06:57 to justify whatever trinitarian beliefs
1:06:59 and we're saying well we're going from
1:07:02 this point which is a non-muslim can
1:07:03 come to a conclusion that one of god
1:07:05 exists or one necessary being with a
1:07:07 mind or who who intended to create
1:07:09 exists and then based on that we're
1:07:12 looking at something that fits that
1:07:13 criteria of a necessary being and
1:07:16 obviously something a religion that
1:07:19 claims that god was born uh that god
1:07:21 dies uh that god can cease to exist that
1:07:25 you know there are multiple gods etc all
1:07:28 of that would be discounted because it
1:07:30 doesn't fit within our our natural
1:07:32 theology so i think that's hopefully the
1:07:35 inshallah that's made it uh clear for
1:07:37 you that it's not circular reasoning the
1:07:39 second point uh also i think he raised
1:07:41 up he said preservation is not an
1:07:44 important criteria but i think
1:07:45 preservation is essential criteria
1:07:47 because if i'm looking for a religion
1:07:49 then and i i can't justify if it's
1:07:52 preserved or not then i can't justify
1:07:54 whether this human interference within
1:07:57 the religion or not that's the whole
1:07:58 point what you're trying to do with
1:08:00 preservation is to say this is from god
1:08:03 this isn't from human beings yeah and so
1:08:06 there's no even from a just from a
1:08:09 pragmatic point of view
1:08:11 the historical discussion around islam
1:08:14 being true or there is the historical
1:08:16 discussion about the preservation of
1:08:18 islam we have a complete story yeah we
1:08:21 have a complete explanation whether
1:08:23 somebody believes the explanation
1:08:25 actually demonstrates his preservation
1:08:27 is true or not is a separate point the
1:08:29 fact that we have a complete explanation
1:08:32 yeah so we know that okay this is how
1:08:35 it's revealed to the prophet peace be
1:08:36 upon him these were the scribes of the
1:08:38 prophet peace be upon him these are the
1:08:40 this is what happened during time of abu
1:08:42 bakr allah and after the prophet peace
1:08:44 be upon him this is his methodology how
1:08:47 he used it and how was agreed upon by
1:08:50 the companions this is what happened
1:08:52 during time
1:08:54 this is the charm this is what happened
1:08:56 during time with uthman
1:08:57 and how he recommissioned zaydim and
1:09:00 albert to uh produce
1:09:03 other master copies to be spread
1:09:05 throughout the the islamic
1:09:07 yeah
1:09:08 and that any other which wasn't
1:09:10 conformity to that or wasn't you know
1:09:14 any produced from the master copies were
1:09:16 to be destroyed so that everything came
1:09:18 that because we got a complete history
1:09:20 yeah or complete uh explanation again
1:09:24 like i said somebody might say well i
1:09:25 don't think that actually occurred but
1:09:27 we have that now you take that and you
1:09:29 give an example of like the book of
1:09:31 hebrews in the new testament where the
1:09:33 author is unknown christians would
1:09:35 readily admit this the author authorship
1:09:38 of this particular book that's found in
1:09:40 the new testament is unknown or maybe
1:09:42 some of the other eastern religions
1:09:44 where they cannot trace the religious
1:09:47 scripture back to a particular date
1:09:50 yeah no matter about you know how it was
1:09:52 preserved but there wasn't a particular
1:09:53 date they're like the regulator for
1:09:55 example
1:09:56 yeah so then there's a problem of saying
1:09:58 how can i have trust that this is uh
1:10:02 divine or uh how can i therefore
1:10:05 discount that any human intervention uh
1:10:08 engaged within it uh potentially yeah so
1:10:12 so that's that's an important point i
1:10:14 think i think it's a criteria that's
1:10:15 going to dismiss a lot of religions out
1:10:17 there if you if people accept that
1:10:19 particular criteria
1:10:21 um
1:10:23 yeah so if we apply these six criteria i
1:10:25 think there's probably six that we've um
1:10:27 discussed if we use the six filters now
1:10:30 like i was given the analogy about
1:10:31 youtube or whatever
1:10:33 you've now narrowed down only to
1:10:35 literally a very few religions pretty
1:10:37 much or you could even just say
1:10:39 like islam and whatever christianity may
1:10:41 be
1:10:43 but even that's obviously a separate
1:10:44 topic but the point i'm trying to try
1:10:46 and make here is we've discussed like
1:10:48 five
1:10:49 like necessary five six necessary
1:10:52 principles criterias filters yeah and
1:10:56 we've obviously narrowed down the
1:10:57 options okay so another another because
1:10:59 we there are some more criteria that
1:11:01 we're looking for that's the s is what
1:11:03 i'm trying to say the more filters you
1:11:04 applied the more you narrow down the
1:11:06 options yeah
1:11:07 yeah so you you in your in the
1:11:09 presentation that you produce which you
1:11:11 know in charlotte uh one day we'll get
1:11:13 released yeah so hopefully you're gonna
1:11:14 do a course on that as well is uh you've
1:11:17 actually mentioned something about uh
1:11:19 evidence uh
1:11:21 so what evidence do we have
1:11:24 uh or what what's that what's this idea
1:11:26 of evidence okay so that's this is
1:11:28 another filter now this is another
1:11:29 criteria
1:11:31 so obviously
1:11:32 we're evidence yeah one criteria so
1:11:34 you've got one general category about
1:11:36 god you've got one general
1:11:38 preservation and then you've got another
1:11:40 general category about education
1:11:43 now with evidence we need to separate
1:11:45 these points whether the evidence is
1:11:47 strong or not separate to the point that
1:11:49 is the evidence so basically
1:11:52 islam
1:11:53 is the one of the only religions um i
1:11:56 would say in christianity and islam are
1:11:57 the only religions that provide some
1:11:59 sort of evidence or some sort of
1:12:01 justification as to
1:12:03 why you why the religion is true why is
1:12:05 it inspired by god or why you must
1:12:06 accept the book like the quran hints
1:12:09 about its linguistic miracle in surah
1:12:11 baqarah when you know
1:12:13 it makes it explicit
1:12:14 yeah about the chapter i like it it also
1:12:17 hints at evidences for the prophet of
1:12:20 the prophet peace be upon him like the
1:12:21 fact that in surah anka where allah says
1:12:24 you know he couldn't read or write i
1:12:26 otherwise the
1:12:28 followers of the falsehood basically
1:12:30 would have doubted allah is using a
1:12:31 rational proof why he's a prophet or the
1:12:33 fact that the prophet lived among you
1:12:35 you know his whole life
1:12:36 um do they not reflect in their
1:12:38 companion
1:12:40 allah is there using the quran here is
1:12:42 using
1:12:43 reasons or evidences to point to its
1:12:46 truthfulness
1:12:47 now if i'm gonna imagine this now i'm
1:12:50 looking at all these books of the world
1:12:52 and i'm only seeing one book here giving
1:12:54 some sort of justification whether that
1:12:56 justification is strong or not separate
1:13:00 which one would i rationally choose a
1:13:01 book that okay it's got some sort of
1:13:02 evidence here let me let me check out
1:13:04 the evidence or a book that doesn't
1:13:05 provide any evidence
1:13:06 i'd rather it's worth researching a book
1:13:09 that provides some sort of evidence so i
1:13:10 can assess it rather than looking at
1:13:12 other books that don't have any sort of
1:13:14 justification like if you look at
1:13:15 certain books they don't mention
1:13:17 anything about
1:13:19 why their religion is from god or why
1:13:21 you must accept it with the quran allah
1:13:24 gives you
1:13:25 rational reasons evidences hints are
1:13:27 evidences why it's from allah why you
1:13:30 must accept it why it's
1:13:32 from the divine yeah i think that's a
1:13:34 very essential criteria because religion
1:13:36 from god should not be based on blind
1:13:39 faith
1:13:40 because if it's based on blind faith and
1:13:41 how we're going to distinguish
1:13:43 distinguish between all the religions
1:13:45 but rather the religion should have some
1:13:47 sort of evidence hinted at in its text
1:13:50 that we can you know assess to come to
1:13:52 the conclusion that it is indeed from
1:13:54 the god and from allah and we see only
1:13:56 islam and your christianity in terms of
1:13:58 the resurrection they're the two
1:13:59 religions that generally have some sort
1:14:01 of evidence based
1:14:02 in the text
1:14:04 it sounds like an obvious point but it's
1:14:05 a point that a lot of people don't
1:14:07 necessarily use in order to justify
1:14:10 their own religion which is evidence
1:14:12 yeah and evidence here is more than just
1:14:15 you know personal feeling because a lot
1:14:17 of people will say well i had this
1:14:19 feeling you know me and you had a
1:14:21 conversation with some mormons and they
1:14:22 talked about testimony of faith do you
1:14:24 remember that yeah because you sincerely
1:14:27 pray to their
1:14:28 god then you'll get this testimonial
1:14:30 therefore but it's more than just
1:14:31 feelings because the problem is that
1:14:33 feelings in the number of themselves
1:14:35 you know lots of people use that as a
1:14:37 sort of a justification so you know it
1:14:39 doesn't really make any you know one way
1:14:41 or the other but you're looking for an
1:14:43 objective criteria as best as possible
1:14:45 and i think you mentioned those two in
1:14:47 essence yeah in in in the in the
1:14:49 presentation that you produce one is an
1:14:51 internal evidence and one is an external
1:14:54 evidence and
1:14:56 internal evidence from from you know you
1:14:58 can correct me if i'm wrong is what
1:14:59 you're saying is that there's no
1:15:00 internal contradictions so one of the
1:15:03 things that you would look at
1:15:04 for a religious text to be true
1:15:07 is you're not seeing
1:15:09 cats clear cut we're not talking about
1:15:12 you know things that could be open to
1:15:13 interpretation
1:15:15 yeah or
1:15:16 it's true in this sense but it could be
1:15:18 true in another sense but actually
1:15:20 clear-cut contradictions if you have
1:15:22 clear-cut contradictions that in and of
1:15:24 itself would discount it it doesn't
1:15:27 again make it true
1:15:29 but it's a way of filtering out and it
1:15:31 gives greater credence to the
1:15:33 possibility of its truth without being
1:15:35 internally contradictory and the second
1:15:37 was external evidence so the external
1:15:40 evidence is say okay have we now got so
1:15:43 in essence what we're doing is we got
1:15:45 these like negative criterias yeah to
1:15:48 discount religions and maybe single out
1:15:53 one or two and then you've got evidences
1:15:56 that now are positive criterias to make
1:16:00 a case for one over the other yeah and
1:16:03 that yeah your
1:16:05 uh would be something which as muslims
1:16:08 we believe is uh what the prophets
1:16:10 brought or the messenger specifically
1:16:12 brought which was a miracle or in arabic
1:16:14 we say mora jaza which means inimitable
1:16:17 act yes something that cannot be uh
1:16:20 always beyond human productive capacity
1:16:22 yeah
1:16:23 so
1:16:24 uh you know we believe that moses had
1:16:26 the stiff that's this the staff that
1:16:28 turned into a snake
1:16:30 uh isa ali some jesus he was able to
1:16:33 by the permission of god cure cure the
1:16:36 sick so these were evidences
1:16:39 to justify that they were prophets
1:16:41 because they were able to bring
1:16:42 something that was inimitable yeah so
1:16:45 again the quran mentions that it's
1:16:48 inimitable or the the proof of
1:16:50 prophethood of the prophet sallallahu
1:16:51 alaihi wasallam is the quran as one of
1:16:53 the arguments for islam because the
1:16:55 quran is inimitable yeah that's what the
1:16:58 muslims at least claim so there is
1:17:00 acclaim for an external criteria in
1:17:04 order to justify its truthfulness now as
1:17:07 you mentioned lots of religions out
1:17:10 there how many make a claim for an
1:17:12 external criteria yeah
1:17:15 so
1:17:16 you know if they're if they don't make a
1:17:18 claim
1:17:19 it's hard for me to assess and if this
1:17:21 claim
1:17:22 then that's the one that i'm going to
1:17:24 start off with before anything else yeah
1:17:26 well that's internally so if the
1:17:28 religion
1:17:29 internally from the text itself claims
1:17:31 it's from god and gives evidences that
1:17:33 that's worth examining rather than a
1:17:36 book that doesn't give evidences
1:17:38 why you should accept it obviously
1:17:40 externally you can give um reasons why
1:17:42 you think um the books from god but
1:17:45 internally
1:17:47 um if the scripture itself doesn't
1:17:49 provide any evidence or reason itself
1:17:51 like the quran provides reasons like the
1:17:53 challenge for example you know the
1:17:54 prophethood it hints that this is why
1:17:56 islam is true but other religions
1:17:58 obviously they don't have that hint
1:18:00 there's no direct
1:18:01 internal evidence from the text that
1:18:04 says this is why the religion's true in
1:18:06 here here's the evidence
1:18:07 okay so um
1:18:10 again we've not gone into the actual
1:18:12 details of why islam is true in this
1:18:14 because that's not the discussion today
1:18:16 it's simply the discussion how you point
1:18:18 out
1:18:19 whether something could be worthy of
1:18:20 consideration
1:18:22 and investigation uh so in charging
1:18:24 future we are going to have streams uh
1:18:26 where we're going to discuss you know
1:18:28 some of these points more in depth here
1:18:30 um so just so we can move on uh what are
1:18:35 uh
1:18:37 what are the other criterias that we use
1:18:41 yeah just to quickly mention in terms of
1:18:43 obviously evidence is for islam
1:18:45 obviously this is not a stream for it
1:18:46 that's why we're not discussing but just
1:18:48 to give like an overview of what we have
1:18:50 i like to like structure things in my
1:18:51 mind so i like to categorize things so
1:18:53 we've got obviously the quran we start
1:18:55 off with the quran so we have like the
1:18:57 linguistic miracle
1:18:58 uh we have the numerical miracle we have
1:19:00 the historical miracle we have the
1:19:02 prophecies
1:19:04 the transformation aspect and
1:19:06 preservation
1:19:07 um and the falsification tests are seven
1:19:12 um and then you go into the prophet
1:19:14 that's a separate category we have the
1:19:15 prophet muhammad peace be upon him his
1:19:17 um proof of prophet that would be for
1:19:19 example
1:19:20 his truthfulness based upon zero based
1:19:23 upon the you know process of deduction
1:19:25 elimination that he was only truthful
1:19:28 um his prophecies and his influence has
1:19:31 impact and the fact that he's prophesied
1:19:33 in previous scriptures so you combine
1:19:35 them two into one these are our obvious
1:19:38 evidences now obviously that's a
1:19:39 separate discussion we can go into
1:19:41 linguistic aspects of the quran you know
1:19:42 it's word placement words choice the
1:19:44 rhetorical devices you know the concises
1:19:46 multi meaning you know the word counts
1:19:48 of the quran the historical miracle the
1:19:50 prophecies about for example hajj that
1:19:52 people across the entire world would
1:19:54 perform hajj at a time when only local
1:19:57 arabs were performing hajj and so on and
1:19:59 so on but i just thought i'd just give
1:20:00 that overview in terms of you know these
1:20:02 are like the evidences that we have
1:20:04 yeah so in terms of your question yeah
1:20:07 so i mean yeah no that's i'm that i
1:20:09 think that's answered the question
1:20:11 uh in short we will be
1:20:13 hopefully
1:20:14 pinning the uh
1:20:16 um
1:20:17 pinning the uh what's the word the the
1:20:20 link to join stream yard yeah
1:20:22 i'm just having to try and work that one
1:20:24 out just to mention the last point you
1:20:26 asked the question about further filters
1:20:28 so obviously yeah yeah yeah
1:20:30 yeah so you mentioned a lot of important
1:20:32 points in terms of actually what we mean
1:20:34 by internal external evidences for the
1:20:36 islam that we have yeah or we look at uh
1:20:40 but yeah what are the further filters
1:20:44 so also for a religion to be from god i
1:20:46 would say it must be universal um
1:20:50 so that would exclude
1:20:52 a lot of the religions that don't exist
1:20:53 today for example like those that have
1:20:55 died out and those that are only for
1:20:59 certain races so obviously islam is a
1:21:01 universal religion for all human beings
1:21:03 despite you know race background but you
1:21:06 have obviously certain religions out
1:21:07 there that claim only that only their
1:21:09 race
1:21:10 is um can accept you have to be a
1:21:13 specific racer except this religion so
1:21:15 i'll definitely say universal is a
1:21:17 criteria as well and not just that but
1:21:19 propagation of that belief
1:21:21 because if god's inspiring
1:21:23 a religion for all human
1:21:26 kind and he's not telling you to spread
1:21:28 that word then
1:21:30 you know what kind of god is that like
1:21:31 does not god obviously want everyone to
1:21:33 know the truth and we see there's only
1:21:35 very few missionary religions as well
1:21:38 and only very few universal religions so
1:21:40 when we apply them to filters again we
1:21:42 start to narrow down options um until
1:21:45 we're left with you know islam
1:21:47 um just on that point about universality
1:21:49 because the whole point is is that as
1:21:50 human beings i am looking for guidance
1:21:53 yeah so if i'm me whether i'm living in
1:21:56 you know whether i find it is a separate
1:21:58 point but i'm looking for it whether i
1:22:00 live in timbuktu
1:22:02 or whether i live in uh you know
1:22:05 the middle east or wherever yeah yeah or
1:22:07 alaska i'm looking for guidance i'm
1:22:10 looking for a message i'm looking for
1:22:11 relate building a relationship with the
1:22:13 creator yeah so how do i do that i have
1:22:16 to have some sort of i have to be
1:22:19 looking for something which is going to
1:22:20 be universal universally applicable yeah
1:22:23 so if he's just saying well god gave
1:22:25 guidance for just this group of people
1:22:27 and nobody else i'll be like that
1:22:29 doesn't really make sense that doesn't
1:22:31 seem to be the reason why i've been
1:22:32 created i've been created with this
1:22:34 desire for purpose meaning and worship
1:22:36 and yet i've been told that i don't need
1:22:38 guidance to help how to define my
1:22:40 purpose meaning in worship
1:22:43 and the religions that obviously the
1:22:44 past didn't no longer exist them
1:22:46 thousands of religions
1:22:48 they would be filtered out as well
1:22:49 because they are applicable today
1:22:51 all right so yeah that's the essence of
1:22:53 the point so these are the criteria that
1:22:55 we've spoken about and you know will we
1:22:57 apply all these criterias so there's a
1:22:59 few other ones as well i think there's
1:23:01 one other one which is important to
1:23:02 mention as well which is
1:23:04 comprehensiveness
1:23:06 as well have you mentioned that one
1:23:10 i've not mentioned that um
1:23:12 that's something i have to really think
1:23:14 about obviously for a religion to be
1:23:16 from god in fact i might as well ask you
1:23:18 this question like
1:23:19 believe that um a religion from god
1:23:21 should be comprehensive so why was it
1:23:23 speak about economics
1:23:24 or
1:23:25 you know societal issues you know
1:23:28 things like that like how obviously
1:23:30 islam is a comprehensive it's not just
1:23:31 limited to rituals it's obviously
1:23:33 comprehensible but why would you say
1:23:35 um
1:23:36 that would be a criteria necessary
1:23:37 criteria i agree with that i'm just i
1:23:39 just want your reasons
1:23:41 so i think i think from my perspective i
1:23:43 think what it is is that again it goes
1:23:44 back to this point about at the
1:23:46 beginning as human beings we're looking
1:23:48 for
1:23:49 how to live the good life yeah how to
1:23:51 live the correct life how to live a
1:23:53 meaningful life
1:23:55 and we don't just live as
1:23:57 as human beings we we're created as
1:23:59 social creatures whether you believe we
1:24:01 evolved in that way or we were created
1:24:03 that way the fact is we are social
1:24:05 creatures we are people who have to live
1:24:07 in societies and we have to be able to
1:24:10 form relationships with other human
1:24:12 beings to get on and those relationships
1:24:14 we form with other people are going to
1:24:15 impact upon myself as an individual yeah
1:24:18 so it's going to be natural that if i'm
1:24:20 looking for guidance on how to live life
1:24:22 then i'm going to look for guidance on
1:24:25 how to live
1:24:26 life in a society not just as an
1:24:29 isolated individual so you know the
1:24:32 economic relationships that i form with
1:24:34 people are going to have major impacts
1:24:35 upon our life and people can see that
1:24:37 you know look at capitalist societies in
1:24:40 the west how big of an impact
1:24:42 consumerism has on the individual and
1:24:45 his likes and his desires and he wants
1:24:48 yeah and even his feelings of happiness
1:24:50 so
1:24:51 you're really thinking that okay some
1:24:53 sort of religion is going to be
1:24:56 global to encompass all aspects of a
1:24:58 human being's life it's not just going
1:25:00 to say here's how to pray and that's it
1:25:03 it's going to be here's how to pray
1:25:05 here's how to form relationships with
1:25:06 your parents
1:25:08 yeah here's the responsibilities parents
1:25:09 are meant to have to their children
1:25:10 here's your responsibility to you know
1:25:12 communities to the society at large etc
1:25:16 yeah so i think
1:25:17 comprehensiveness
1:25:19 uh again
1:25:20 is an important aspect
1:25:22 yeah because then obviously people would
1:25:24 be contradicting themselves how
1:25:26 one might say
1:25:27 x should have this responsibility and
1:25:29 someone might say no why should have
1:25:30 this responsibility or they shouldn't
1:25:32 have this responsibility you know
1:25:34 oh you get this weird situation where
1:25:36 you get this situation where people are
1:25:37 saying i'm like tony blair he was a
1:25:39 prime minister of the uk he became a
1:25:41 catholic and he actually introduced you
1:25:45 know laws that made it easier for
1:25:46 gambling companies to occur exist within
1:25:49 the uk and he even said oh i don't
1:25:52 believe that that's good morally wrong
1:25:54 but we live in a secular society so
1:25:57 there's a disconnect between what he
1:26:00 believes as religious
1:26:02 you know values
1:26:03 and what he then implements in a secular
1:26:06 sense and you think hold on that secular
1:26:10 sense you know allowing more gambling to
1:26:12 occur within society deregulating it in
1:26:14 a particular way that's going to have an
1:26:16 impact upon individual it's going to
1:26:17 make it more
1:26:18 any situation where people are more
1:26:20 likely to gamble that as opposed to not
1:26:22 gambling things like that i think it was
1:26:23 super casinos i think it was that it was
1:26:25 interesting
1:26:26 so you're saying basically in essence
1:26:28 this conflict between what society
1:26:29 doesn't what the society is doing on
1:26:31 your belief
1:26:33 if in a secular society yeah so you
1:26:35 would have a situation where
1:26:37 you would want a harmony between an
1:26:39 individual's belief in his relationship
1:26:41 with the creator and how he conducts
1:26:43 himself and so you would have this sort
1:26:45 of
1:26:45 any this this
1:26:47 this religion or this divine guidance
1:26:49 that's going to guide in both areas so
1:26:51 that you're able to facilitate or god is
1:26:54 able to facilitate your path to
1:26:56 salvation yeah right yeah that makes
1:26:58 sense
1:26:59 definitely i don't know if i've actually
1:27:01 shared the stream or not
1:27:04 yeah so let me just double check pin pin
1:27:08 oh hold on uh i think it has been pinned
1:27:11 let me just check
1:27:12 has it been pinned
1:27:14 oh sorry
1:27:21 so i've got a phone call going on
1:27:37 yeah so i'm just checking oh yeah so
1:27:39 this this the link has been pinned let
1:27:42 me uh do the banner we've got people
1:27:43 awake
1:27:45 we don't have anybody waiting at the
1:27:46 moment actually so if you want to come
1:27:48 on
1:27:49 uh and we can uh we can you know discuss
1:27:52 that one
1:27:53 is that coming on
1:27:55 in charlotte should be coming on if not
1:27:56 we've got a short shelf which is great
1:27:58 but more than happy
1:28:00 oh no
1:28:01 we've got your favorite guest on
1:28:04 hamdulillah
1:28:06 so i'll bring him on inshallah uh
1:28:08 link to join the stream has been pinned
1:28:10 there you go right okay
1:28:25 it's been quite a while
1:28:27 i'm the husband
1:28:30 i'm sorry i came a little bit late i
1:28:32 didn't get the chance to watch all the
1:28:33 screen
1:28:34 so i have a question pertaining to
1:28:37 the criteria or the your stick that
1:28:40 braden what doesn't mention
1:28:42 um
1:28:44 does it include
1:28:45 uh salvation
1:28:47 a true religion from god has to provide
1:28:50 a means of salvation either in this life
1:28:52 or next life answer the critical
1:28:56 essential questions about
1:28:58 this life as well like why there's
1:29:01 suffering what happened when we die
1:29:03 and where we become where we come from
1:29:05 does it include those did he mention
1:29:07 anything
1:29:08 in regard to those things
1:29:11 no i didn't mention about that in terms
1:29:12 of um salvation aspect or like the
1:29:15 existential questions
1:29:17 that's a good point actually like
1:29:19 because obviously i had religion from
1:29:20 god that's the point of it like why are
1:29:22 we here it should address the purpose
1:29:24 but um
1:29:26 we mentioned it at the beginning in you
1:29:28 know we talked about purpose
1:29:31 yeah but i think every religion pretty
1:29:33 much has some sort of their own makes
1:29:35 their own purpose up
1:29:37 yeah so i think the issue salvation i
1:29:39 don't know
1:29:42 so i think muhammad we're presupposing a
1:29:44 little bit in terms of salvation
1:29:48 that
1:29:48 you know that's what god wants that
1:29:50 there's some sort of paradise etc etc
1:29:54 you know it could be reincarnation i'm
1:29:56 talking about from a purely you know
1:29:58 non-muslim he doesn't come with any
1:30:00 preconceived ideas or biases
1:30:03 and you know he he looks at these claims
1:30:06 for the existence of a creator
1:30:08 uh also the claims for you know
1:30:10 revelation from the creator
1:30:12 and what what would his filters be
1:30:16 yeah so he's we're trying to say
1:30:18 as a bare minimum what that would be and
1:30:21 the idea of salvation
1:30:24 you could say to a certain extent it
1:30:25 might be intuitive
1:30:27 but you know people might have different
1:30:29 views about what it means to be saved or
1:30:32 you know maybe believe in this eternal
1:30:34 uh reincarnation type model whereas what
1:30:36 we're saying is that this particular
1:30:39 criteria that we had so the first
1:30:41 criteria centered around god claim this
1:30:44 the first as first second one was around
1:30:47 uh
1:30:49 the preservation yeah third one was
1:30:52 around evidence internal external
1:30:54 evidence and the fourth one which we
1:30:57 sort of touched upon with this idea of
1:30:58 universality and comprehensiveness as
1:31:00 well so those are the
1:31:02 propagation as well
1:31:04 yeah and propagation as well to a
1:31:05 certain extent yeah uh
1:31:08 so
1:31:10 those are the four stroke five key
1:31:11 points areas within this and
1:31:14 um
1:31:15 you know the reason also i think it's
1:31:18 it's really important discussion to have
1:31:19 is because
1:31:20 um like i said i've had many discussions
1:31:23 with uh many non-muslims uh even you
1:31:26 know even recently on hamza's den as
1:31:29 well as here but anaheim does then in
1:31:30 particular
1:31:32 um
1:31:33 when i when when i discuss with them i
1:31:35 actually go through this process with
1:31:37 them yeah through with non-muslims
1:31:40 because
1:31:41 if they've agreed upon the existence of
1:31:43 a creator i said okay so what would you
1:31:45 expect now would you expect that there
1:31:47 would be some sort of communication what
1:31:49 would you expect of that communication
1:31:51 would it you know if it claims because a
1:31:54 lot of people who believe in god or
1:31:56 agnostic to a certain extent about
1:31:58 religions
1:31:59 that the problem that they have is that
1:32:02 they don't have
1:32:04 they they feel that they're just
1:32:05 overwhelmed by information of different
1:32:08 religions and it's just impossible to
1:32:10 filter out uh any any of those
1:32:12 particular religions and what you can
1:32:14 demonstrate is actually you can filter
1:32:15 it to one and not only that one religion
1:32:18 would be islam so really you should be
1:32:20 putting all your efforts investigating
1:32:22 this one religion
1:32:23 bearing in mind as well when you're
1:32:25 filtering you're not even refuting other
1:32:27 religions you're just
1:32:29 filtering out so just what i mentioned
1:32:30 that as well you're not actually either
1:32:32 you don't need to even attack refute
1:32:34 whatever
1:32:35 and you'll do that you don't need
1:32:36 evidence to demonstrate the other
1:32:38 faults
1:32:40 them to be true because they're not
1:32:42 fitting your criteria
1:32:43 i'm not thinking the necessary criteria
1:32:45 yes yeah
1:32:46 absolutely i agree with everything you
1:32:49 guys might think does that felt like
1:32:50 around okay
1:32:54 any other questions or points that you
1:32:55 want to raise
1:32:57 yeah some personal question for my
1:32:59 person
1:33:01 for another time no no no no no no no no
1:33:05 next
1:33:06 time
1:33:11 i can imagine those personal questions
1:33:14 exactly
1:33:16 yeah is anyone else weak uh nobody else
1:33:19 is waiting at the moment so the
1:33:20 opportunity is there uh hopefully we'll
1:33:22 get a good morning bit if not we're
1:33:24 going to end the stream bro
1:33:27 and see where he is
1:33:29 yeah no inshallah so hopefully you'll be
1:33:32 here there's a question that i wanted to
1:33:34 uh somebody sent a super chat uh i did
1:33:37 have it on here i just want to go
1:33:38 through it again because uh
1:33:40 we never asked it it was more related to
1:33:43 a belief in creator the evidence for it
1:33:46 so i'm just quickly scrolling up to see
1:33:48 whether i can find that particular
1:33:50 question again
1:33:52 uh inshallah but like i was mentioning
1:33:54 before
1:33:56 the reason part of the
1:33:58 i think this is a really effective
1:34:00 method and model for daoa
1:34:02 and i'm speaking obviously to the
1:34:04 muslims here primarily is that if you
1:34:06 explain these rational filters
1:34:09 yeah uh why we can you know
1:34:12 remove or negate certain religions
1:34:15 without even investigating their
1:34:17 particular claims
1:34:20 uh then you know you you you make a case
1:34:23 for islam and you make it more easier
1:34:26 for them to be able to come uh to
1:34:28 investigate islam as well you
1:34:30 know
1:34:32 you know i think it's a very powerful
1:34:33 argument
1:34:35 issan says here's something i'm just
1:34:36 scrolling up uh it's rational because
1:34:38 you already believe in it no i would say
1:34:40 we believe in it because it's rational
1:34:43 um
1:34:44 yeah it's like a song look at the end of
1:34:46 the day you're going to turn around and
1:34:47 claim that it's not rational and we're
1:34:49 going to say is rational so it doesn't
1:34:51 make any it doesn't help
1:34:54 in innocent just to say you you you know
1:34:56 you're saying it's rational because you
1:34:58 believe in it the thing is that he
1:34:59 wasn't able to say that with someone
1:35:00 let's say who's a convert for example
1:35:02 that's converted to something like yusuf
1:35:03 he wasn't able to use that against him
1:35:04 because he didn't believe it at one
1:35:06 point so he used your rationality so how
1:35:09 are you going to say to him
1:35:10 yeah but he's like i said he's just he's
1:35:13 got he believes in his claim we'll
1:35:15 investigate that if we think his claim
1:35:17 is nonsense then that's the reality of
1:35:20 it because that's how we assess the
1:35:22 arguments you know now if he thinks that
1:35:24 we're nonsense that's up to him who
1:35:26 wants to believe that so anyway so malik
1:35:28 uh jazakallah for the super chat he's uh
1:35:31 he's asked the question do you guys
1:35:33 think that the uniformity of nature and
1:35:35 the reliability of induction in regards
1:35:38 to the generalizations about things is
1:35:40 proof for god uh what do you think to
1:35:43 that
1:35:45 um this is stepping out my lane a bit um
1:35:49 when he says reliability of induction
1:35:50 here what does he mean
1:35:54 yeah i'm i think he probably might
1:35:56 probably means the reliability that
1:35:58 induction can allow us to make certain
1:36:00 generalizations even though we've got a
1:36:02 limited set yeah
1:36:03 the thing is is we're not when it comes
1:36:05 to proofs of god for example we're not
1:36:07 using just induction we're using
1:36:09 obviously deduction based on
1:36:10 metaphysical uh like principles so it's
1:36:13 not like there's going to be more data
1:36:14 in future
1:36:15 um
1:36:17 proofs of gods are obviously
1:36:19 you can categorize them so like
1:36:20 deductive ones like the contingency
1:36:22 argument from you know the psr
1:36:25 possible beings you know limitation
1:36:27 that's all purely metaphysical all based
1:36:30 on principles um so
1:36:33 that's definitely not uh using induction
1:36:36 however in books is more like secondary
1:36:38 i'd say rather than primary so you know
1:36:39 like arguments for design for example
1:36:41 you know you could use maybe
1:36:43 um
1:36:44 that'll show that the likelihood but
1:36:46 that's not our primary argument but is
1:36:48 it reliable um
1:36:50 i believe it can just be used something
1:36:51 called secondary rather than some
1:36:52 primary right it strengthens
1:36:55 the about the existence of god
1:36:57 yeah strengthens some of the premises of
1:36:59 the argument but all scientific ones as
1:37:01 well for example
1:37:03 yeah classically the uniformity of
1:37:05 nature argument was used to prove one
1:37:08 god yet the oneness of god so they may
1:37:11 use other arguments like for example the
1:37:13 contingency argument or the cosmological
1:37:16 argument to say that there is a a
1:37:19 being out there a creator a necessary
1:37:21 being even
1:37:22 uh and then they would
1:37:24 they would use this argument say well
1:37:26 look the uniformity
1:37:29 he's written a book on this
1:37:32 that i've translated at home where it
1:37:34 discusses oneness of god and one of the
1:37:36 arguments that it uses is from the
1:37:38 uniformity of nature saying because the
1:37:40 the laws of nature not only do they
1:37:44 operate the same throughout the whole of
1:37:45 the universe but also they uh are
1:37:49 interrelated yeah and so that implies
1:37:52 it's an evidentialist argument that
1:37:54 implies that there must be one god
1:37:56 uh for that yeah i think we've got some
1:37:59 uh so hopefully each other that's helped
1:38:01 to answer some of those points uh
1:38:03 regardless
1:38:04 of that question i've got someone else
1:38:05 waiting yeah we've got uh we've got a
1:38:08 comment
1:38:09 brother sam uh
1:38:12 i think i think you remember him from
1:38:13 last week so last two weeks stream
1:38:17 um
1:38:19 yeah i think you mentioned about
1:38:21 we we could get morals from
1:38:24 the quran or any book but
1:38:27 i don't believe you do get mindy morals
1:38:29 from the quran i think
1:38:32 a lot of the morals here are like
1:38:33 already
1:38:35 uh you know god's built inside of us
1:38:38 and what the quran has he had more kind
1:38:40 of
1:38:41 laws that god wants to um
1:38:44 you know people to follow
1:38:47 so
1:38:47 you know even atheists here they'll have
1:38:49 morals which may be similar to what you
1:38:51 know
1:38:52 believers have
1:38:54 so
1:38:55 yes i i don't think you could i don't
1:38:59 think having
1:39:00 a kind of a book to say this this way
1:39:02 you get more from me
1:39:04 makes sense to kind of eat this well
1:39:06 because you know it by intuition is that
1:39:08 what you're saying yeah well
1:39:10 you know it's not human nature
1:39:13 you know we know what
1:39:14 good
1:39:15 bodies yeah okay let me give you an
1:39:17 example then is is interest good or bad
1:39:22 um it i guess it depends
1:39:25 some people say it's good because you're
1:39:27 getting you know money
1:39:28 there you go
1:39:30 that's a practical question because we
1:39:33 live in a society that's full of
1:39:34 interest
1:39:35 and they believe it's a very good thing
1:39:38 yeah so not what i'm trying to say is
1:39:41 he's basically saying that in your
1:39:42 intuition can't rely on everything so
1:39:44 there's certain things out there that
1:39:45 your intuition weren't able to account
1:39:47 for so like iriba for example you're not
1:39:49 unable to know whether that's right
1:39:50 wrong but yeah yeah it's not i mean that
1:39:52 is more like i would say it's more like
1:39:54 a rule like god's point and goes you
1:39:57 know in in god's eyes yeah this is this
1:40:00 is not allowed because you're profiting
1:40:01 from your fellow
1:40:03 what about
1:40:04 legacy the rule of ripper
1:40:07 an interest is not just simply a rule
1:40:09 say don't do it
1:40:11 there are
1:40:12 consequences of that there's a
1:40:14 perception that this is an injustice
1:40:17 that's created
1:40:19 a moral verdict on these things and so
1:40:22 look the the certain schools of
1:40:25 theological thought within islam say
1:40:27 that
1:40:27 human beings can know what's right and
1:40:29 wrong in a general sense but in the
1:40:31 specific sense they need guidance and
1:40:34 revelation
1:40:39 that human beings can't know what's
1:40:40 right or wrong even in a general sense
1:40:43 you know they may have intuitions what
1:40:45 they think but there's no way of
1:40:47 grounding those things to be true unless
1:40:49 you've got revelatory authority to
1:40:50 determine these things so what that so i
1:40:53 think the question whether you want to
1:40:55 call it this is a law or this is a
1:40:57 morality whatever it is you want to make
1:40:59 a distinction between the two the fact
1:41:01 is there's a question about ribba some
1:41:04 people say it's good some people say
1:41:06 it's bad some people say it's legal some
1:41:07 people say it should be illegal and yet
1:41:10 we need a way to solve this particular
1:41:12 problem
1:41:13 yeah so yes if you follow the book
1:41:15 you're gonna abide by that what i'm
1:41:17 trying to say is more in certain
1:41:18 generals like you know some people say
1:41:20 oh you know it is where they get morals
1:41:22 from it's like you need a book no but in
1:41:25 in general living you don't need
1:41:27 a book to tell you what is right and
1:41:29 wrong you know you're not lying is wrong
1:41:31 you know stealing is wrong you know uh
1:41:33 you know
1:41:34 murder is wrong you don't need a book
1:41:36 you think abortion is wrong
1:41:39 yeah i think well personally yeah
1:41:42 so a lot of atheists a lot of people out
1:41:43 there say no it's not wrong so yeah on
1:41:46 that yeah
1:41:48 yeah but
1:41:50 it's up to them deciding certain things
1:41:52 yeah we decide ourselves here
1:41:54 is this is this morally wrong yeah but
1:41:57 the problem is is you have a debate
1:41:59 about whether
1:42:00 abortion is morally right or morally
1:42:04 wrong some people say it's morally right
1:42:08 other people say it's morally wrong now
1:42:10 you can say it's up to them but that's
1:42:11 the whole point the point being becomes
1:42:13 relative you have to live in society
1:42:16 if i'm saying
1:42:18 generally living is
1:42:20 is lying wrong we know it's important to
1:42:23 us that's is wrong we're not stupid
1:42:25 i'll give you an example now if you're
1:42:27 saying
1:42:28 lying is wrong let's say nazis come to
1:42:30 your house you live in you know germany
1:42:33 during world war ii and they say do you
1:42:35 have a jew in your basement and you have
1:42:37 a jew in your basement
1:42:39 what'd you do there
1:42:40 what's the moral thing to do yeah is it
1:42:42 to lie
1:42:43 right so you can't say lying is morally
1:42:46 wrong than that
1:42:47 in a certain situation you can't lie you
1:42:49 know
1:42:51 which which are those situations this is
1:42:52 a specification this is the problem
1:42:54 you
1:43:04 but it's a christian some christians
1:43:05 believe it's not okay to lie in that
1:43:07 spirit
1:43:08 that's the opinion
1:43:20 exceptions
1:43:21 to when it's allowed to lie yeah you
1:43:24 have that we have these rulings within
1:43:26 islam or within a religion yeah just
1:43:28 like we have rulings related to
1:43:31 interests we have rulings related to
1:43:33 trade we have rulings related to you
1:43:35 know how to engage with the opposite
1:43:36 gender we have rulings related to you
1:43:38 know what is the moral right thing to do
1:43:40 when it comes to the issue of abortion
1:43:42 and whether the mother's life is in the
1:43:44 threat or not you know where the rulings
1:43:46 are in that so we have these rulings
1:43:48 it's not like we've just been left you
1:43:50 know and everybody can make it up from
1:43:52 their own mind yeah well
1:43:54 comprehensive comprehensive relationship
1:43:56 um
1:43:57 you know imam joanie mentioned something
1:43:59 interesting it's slightly separate but
1:44:01 it can link to this point he basically
1:44:03 says that um you know he he compared a
1:44:06 prophet to like a
1:44:07 uh basically said uh wait one second
1:44:09 hang on johnny continued the debate by
1:44:11 arguing that prophets had also been sent
1:44:13 to specify what believers needed to do
1:44:16 in order to conduct their lives
1:44:17 righteously he compared a profit to a
1:44:20 physician who was able to identify the
1:44:22 precise cure
1:44:24 he made the use of analogy so this is
1:44:26 the analogy you got physician is needed
1:44:28 to identify foods and medicines for
1:44:30 people to distinguish them from deadly
1:44:33 poisons even though
1:44:35 experience gained through trial and
1:44:38 error could lead to the same information
1:44:41 the long period of time would cause irre
1:44:44 irreparable injuries and losses
1:44:47 meaning he's saying like um
1:44:49 even if you let's say he was to assume
1:44:50 what you were saying
1:44:52 um it's true um
1:44:54 it'll still be detrimental because you
1:44:56 have to do a trial and error
1:44:58 to see what's right and wrong
1:45:00 and why not just have you know
1:45:01 revelation that makes it clear and
1:45:03 prevents any you know catastrophe from
1:45:04 occurring to begin with
1:45:06 well yeah see when you say revelation
1:45:08 here the revelation is for muslims the
1:45:10 crown
1:45:11 uh
1:45:12 just yeah well that's why how how do you
1:45:14 how do you class sunnah as a revelation
1:45:17 that's a separate stream we've had two
1:45:19 so this is it i'm saying it i i don't
1:45:21 believe that
1:45:22 it's not this is it
1:45:24 the vast majority of muslims for the
1:45:26 whole of history have accepted quran and
1:45:29 sunnah if you come on the stream and
1:45:31 you're disagreeing with sunnah has been
1:45:32 revelated we've had two streams on that
1:45:34 you can re-watch that you can look at
1:45:36 the arguments and you can make your own
1:45:38 decisions but this is not this stream
1:45:41 yeah are you is it talking
1:45:51 thank you anyway sam i think i think
1:45:53 personally the points prove it the fact
1:45:55 that there's disputes of abortion ripper
1:45:58 interest
1:45:59 you know a whole host of issues
1:46:01 demonstrates that you do need
1:46:03 specification you do need some sort of
1:46:05 guidance on that now it could be the
1:46:07 case that you believe we don't that's up
1:46:09 to you but then you're gonna have
1:46:10 differences and you're going to have
1:46:12 people believe that
1:46:13 abortion is fine it's the right and
1:46:15 other people think that they're
1:46:17 committing murder and mass murder so
1:46:19 this is a big issue but i appreciate you
1:46:22 coming on sam thank you yeah you're
1:46:24 welcome
1:46:34 are you there
1:46:37 ali
1:46:39 i think i know this brother yeah he he
1:46:41 uh he
1:46:42 in the private message he did message me
1:46:45 yeah yeah i know i know him
1:46:46 is it is he there ali i'm also from
1:46:49 australia
1:46:53 no
1:46:54 okay oh well we'll keep you there uh as
1:46:57 in we'll remove put you down but you
1:46:59 know stay on the um in the queue and
1:47:01 then inshallah we can try and come back
1:47:03 to you later on
1:47:06 okay martial allah we have brother
1:47:08 muhammad
1:47:13 can you hear me
1:47:14 yeah
1:47:17 it is yes
1:47:18 well no not really i was i was actually
1:47:20 passing through
1:47:22 and i noticed your alert came up and i
1:47:24 missed actually the beginning part of
1:47:25 the program okay but i caught i think
1:47:28 the last
1:47:29 couple of guests
1:47:31 and one thing piqued my interest which
1:47:33 was
1:47:34 this idea of morality and where does how
1:47:38 do we know the religion is true
1:47:40 and
1:47:42 i i get this quite often actually in the
1:47:44 discussions that i have where people
1:47:45 sort of say
1:47:46 yes but does it have to come from
1:47:49 somewhere
1:47:50 can it not just be
1:47:53 right can it come in you know big almost
1:47:54 like they sort of i've inherited it kind
1:47:56 of a discussion right
1:47:58 and usually the response that that we
1:48:01 give and your brothers have given it
1:48:02 which is that
1:48:06 anything that we do
1:48:08 we
1:48:09 all i mean in normal life we expect it
1:48:12 to come from a source that we trust i
1:48:14 mean for example your payroll right
1:48:16 you expect to you expect a salary you
1:48:18 don't expect some anonymous individual
1:48:20 to pay your salary uh from wherever you
1:48:23 get from wherever or whenever
1:48:25 there's a certain process of protocol
1:48:27 that you follow
1:48:29 and what i find when i speak to these
1:48:30 people they throw that logic out the
1:48:32 door when it comes to religion and it's
1:48:35 this same sort of ridiculous um
1:48:38 comedian
1:48:40 of i've just let go one more you know
1:48:43 i've forgotten three-third or i've sort
1:48:44 of don't believe in three thousand
1:48:46 and that's just one it's not it's the
1:48:48 same sort of
1:48:49 quip
1:48:50 that is meaningless pointless and really
1:48:53 has no logic behind it but it's a way of
1:48:56 actually denying the truth
1:48:58 and so i think one of the things that
1:49:00 the i think is worth discussing here is
1:49:04 within islam morality
1:49:06 is not only individual but it's
1:49:07 collective
1:49:10 and that's the most important thing i
1:49:11 think for what religion gives you is it
1:49:14 gives you a collective responsibility
1:49:16 and morality there is good for any time
1:49:20 any place
1:49:21 for all peoples
1:49:23 and a religion that cannot do that or a
1:49:25 way of life that cannot do that for me
1:49:27 is false by definition yeah
1:49:31 no no
1:49:32 that's really it yeah i think i think
1:49:34 it's like you you make a really good
1:49:36 point mohammed uh
1:49:38 because i think that's a really
1:49:39 important aspect because at the
1:49:42 beginning of our stream so normally the
1:49:44 way we do our streams i'm sure you've
1:49:45 seen them before beginning we have a bit
1:49:47 of a discussion we had a discussion in
1:49:48 terms of what the criteria uh
1:49:51 is mustache has produced like a
1:49:53 presentation it's not been released yet
1:49:56 but he has produced one so that's why we
1:49:58 brought him on the stream uh and one of
1:50:00 the criterias that um
1:50:02 we mentioned at the beginning is oh the
1:50:05 question we asked at the beginning is
1:50:07 why should we be looking for a religion
1:50:09 in the first place
1:50:10 and one of the reasons is because we
1:50:13 need guidance in our daily lives
1:50:15 not just in our spiritual but that's
1:50:17 really important because part of the
1:50:18 future of a human being is to want to
1:50:20 worship part of his innate disposition
1:50:22 but also he needs to have guidance in
1:50:25 other parts of his life as well to
1:50:28 specify
1:50:29 some of the you know complexities of
1:50:31 living yeah and so you're going to now
1:50:34 look for some sort of world view that's
1:50:36 going to fit within that yeah uh with it
1:50:39 within that aspect and so therefore
1:50:42 that's what's driving human beings
1:50:45 yeah it's not even a religious question
1:50:47 but it's driving all human beings to
1:50:49 develop and adopt a belief system now
1:50:52 why religious belief system well that
1:50:54 presupposes we've proven that creator
1:50:55 exists
1:50:57 that god is one and therefore we're
1:50:59 saying okay
1:51:00 who's better to give us this guidance
1:51:02 then
1:51:03 than the creator there are all these
1:51:05 people that made these god claims yeah
1:51:08 that they've been claimed you know from
1:51:10 the divine how do we how can we make
1:51:12 that assessment
1:51:14 and so
1:51:15 that's why we made uh one of the
1:51:18 criterias is this universe or
1:51:20 comprehensiveness being able to address
1:51:24 some of the complexities of life amongst
1:51:27 these i don't know how much you saw the
1:51:28 beginning of the stream or
1:51:30 i caught it when you left i got it as
1:51:37 so i agree i think
1:51:39 this need this innate need to worship i
1:51:42 think is sort of it's without question
1:51:45 it's there
1:51:47 and whether i mean you know the cargo
1:51:50 cult example of richard feynman for
1:51:52 example right
1:51:53 where
1:51:54 these individuals during the second
1:51:55 world war
1:51:57 they noticed that
1:51:58 cargo was being delivered
1:52:00 from the air
1:52:02 when these american soldiers were around
1:52:04 these in the pacific islands is sort of
1:52:05 well documented
1:52:07 and they they started actually
1:52:08 worshiping this cargo that would come
1:52:11 down
1:52:12 now when these soldiers left
1:52:15 it wasn't appearing of course because it
1:52:17 was the delivery for their food and
1:52:18 supplies
1:52:20 and they built an entire religion around
1:52:22 basically
1:52:24 bamboo runways
1:52:26 and bamboo telecom towers and coconut
1:52:28 headphones and they would they sit on
1:52:31 these basically dirt roads waiting for
1:52:33 these supplies to arrive
1:52:36 because what they observed was that when
1:52:39 these other people did this they got
1:52:40 stuff
1:52:42 right
1:52:42 right now now to me
1:52:45 that is the perfect example of
1:52:47 individuals who
1:52:48 innately
1:52:49 realize there is something bigger than
1:52:51 themselves yeah
1:52:53 recognize there is a ritual
1:52:55 out here or what they observe as being a
1:52:57 ritual
1:52:58 which
1:52:59 gave them something or that they
1:53:01 received something in return right and
1:53:04 so without understanding what was
1:53:06 happening
1:53:06 they adopted the ritual
1:53:08 yeah
1:53:10 they carried out what they believed was
1:53:13 the right actions but of course nothing
1:53:15 happened
1:53:16 and and
1:53:18 but where did that come from that came
1:53:19 from that innate need to want to believe
1:53:21 in something bigger than you and i think
1:53:24 anybody that denies this and i think
1:53:26 this this is where i think the real um
1:53:28 for those on the chat
1:53:30 and i know some of those names because
1:53:31 they come onto our channel as well who
1:53:33 who say no it's not necessary it's not
1:53:35 realist whatever
1:53:37 all you're really doing is you're lying
1:53:38 to yourself
1:53:40 again you're just lying i mean
1:53:42 i mean you can shout out as loud as you
1:53:44 want
1:53:45 the this is not real but all you're
1:53:47 doing is lying to yourself right you're
1:53:49 and as we say you're covering your
1:53:50 fithra you're actually forcing it so
1:53:53 what are you saying
1:53:54 in terms of the worship instinct
1:53:56 yes the worshipping exactly i think i
1:53:58 don't think that's that's controversial
1:54:00 i think would you say yeah no
1:54:02 yeah it's not that's right it is
1:54:04 generally understood but i think
1:54:05 muhammad you make a really good point
1:54:06 because
1:54:07 one of the aspects regardless of the
1:54:09 tribe that you mentioned
1:54:11 is
1:54:12 they presumed
1:54:14 yes how to satisfy their religious
1:54:16 instinct
1:54:18 here is that we're saying we should be
1:54:21 looking for guidance there you know
1:54:23 that's it that's exactly that's the
1:54:24 point i was going to make which was yeah
1:54:25 which is which is
1:54:26 so in the absence of the ability to
1:54:29 investigate
1:54:30 they adopted this thing but actually
1:54:33 what you're saying here is if you
1:54:35 actually went looking what would you
1:54:36 look for yeah if you actually had to do
1:54:38 an assessment yeah
1:54:40 and and so i think the tools i think
1:54:42 there was a good question earlier that
1:54:43 came up which is
1:54:45 is not the fact that we have rationality
1:54:47 the fact that we have logic
1:54:49 is that not evidence
1:54:51 and that's an interesting
1:54:53 interesting discussion right which is
1:54:55 why would we be endowed with those
1:54:57 qualities in the first place those
1:54:59 attributes in the first place
1:55:01 right yeah
1:55:02 from the
1:55:03 well from the evolutionary perspective
1:55:06 it actually does not provide any
1:55:09 necessary benefit above and beyond
1:55:11 survival if you're all you need is
1:55:13 survival yeah
1:55:14 you need yourself
1:55:16 this is too much it's far too much i
1:55:18 mean
1:55:19 mohammed i don't know if you know but
1:55:21 there's a professor called donald
1:55:22 hoffman who's professor of neuroscience
1:55:24 and he argued that and he did a
1:55:27 mathematical model of evolution and he
1:55:31 said does evolution
1:55:33 does it select for true finding
1:55:36 or does it select for survivability and
1:55:39 he explained and he said actually true
1:55:42 finding can be antagonistic to
1:55:44 survivability so it's actually
1:55:46 survivability not just finding
1:55:48 so he said this idea that we can know
1:55:51 truth
1:55:52 because we are evolved to know truth
1:55:53 because it helps us to survive he says
1:55:55 that's a false assumption it doesn't
1:55:57 help us to survive survivability helps
1:56:00 us to survive and it doesn't necessitate
1:56:02 it being truth and he gives exa various
1:56:04 examples within nature as well but you
1:56:07 know he developed a sort of an
1:56:08 evolutionary mathematical algorithm in
1:56:11 order to test that assumption out and
1:56:14 it's generally sort of acknowledged that
1:56:15 that's quite an important uh you know um
1:56:19 you know
1:56:20 methodology or evidence that he did
1:56:22 mohammed are you okay to stay stick
1:56:24 around in charlotte
1:56:30 it's a bank holiday tomorrow i've got
1:56:32 nothing to do today so that's all right
1:56:34 because i want to bring on this guest
1:56:36 okay
1:56:39 oh what's that no not me again is that
1:56:42 what it is
1:56:44 how are you
1:56:46 welcome
1:56:49 um
1:56:49 it's called it's no name again
1:56:53 no name again
1:57:06 you know that question one um you know
1:57:09 the question one that you did last week
1:57:12 you know a few weeks weeks ago yeah yeah
1:57:14 well you would do martha so
1:57:17 yeah yeah in charlotte we will do we
1:57:19 want to cover specific topics as well
1:57:21 but yeah we want to uh maybe uh also
1:57:24 intersperse that with general q and a's
1:57:27 in charlotte because um
1:57:28 because uh that
1:57:30 that's what i um
1:57:31 because i've got a lot of questions on
1:57:34 my mind to him to ask so that that's why
1:57:36 i was asking
1:57:38 yeah no problem each other that's fine
1:57:40 also just uh something to mention as
1:57:42 well if you have questions that you're
1:57:44 trying to seek particular answers to
1:57:47 yourself uh ponders he runs the
1:57:49 lighthouse project with sapience
1:57:52 institute i don't know if you've heard
1:57:53 of that
1:57:54 yeah
1:57:56 yeah so the lighthouse projects you can
1:57:58 book um
1:58:00 a one-hour session uh
1:58:03 with either hamza sources
1:58:07 also has been involved in that i'm not
1:58:09 sure if he's still with it
1:58:11 involved because i think he's been busy
1:58:12 but he certainly
1:58:14 was one of the sort of the the people
1:58:16 that are mentors or whatever in that
1:58:18 process you're so for others
1:58:20 and so i'm just saying is that it might
1:58:22 be easier to
1:58:24 uh
1:58:25 get some of those questions there but
1:58:26 obviously you're
1:58:27 free to also
1:58:29 um
1:58:30 you know join us on on tap when we have
1:58:32 those general q a sessions or
1:58:35 i don't know if you've got any
1:58:36 particular questions on this topic
1:58:38 uh
1:58:41 i can't really think of one yeah but uh
1:58:45 certain
1:58:46 um
1:58:48 how would you ex
1:58:49 expect you know the adamic um
1:58:53 you know
1:58:54 evolution of polytheism i like um
1:58:57 you know for example like um
1:58:59 would you say that the fitra um was
1:59:02 corrupted like satan corrupted it and
1:59:05 that's how they became paltry or so
1:59:08 yeah
1:59:09 okay so i think uh
1:59:11 just from my perspective
1:59:14 what um
1:59:15 yourself's got a really good answer to
1:59:17 this point because in in relation to
1:59:19 a particular contention so the
1:59:21 contention is is that humanity went from
1:59:24 polytheism to monotheism to the history
1:59:27 of humanity is that polytheistic and
1:59:29 then suddenly it became monotheistic
1:59:32 yeah they became more sophisticated and
1:59:34 joseph mentions the point which is that
1:59:37 you know
1:59:38 you as an individual
1:59:40 the first thought that's going to come
1:59:41 to your health head is going to be at
1:59:43 the the most simplest explanation yeah
1:59:46 so if you've got this drive to want to
1:59:48 worship the most simplest explanation
1:59:50 would be there's one divine being
1:59:52 yeah yeah there's this there's one
1:59:55 you're not going to come out with this
1:59:57 copanthium of gods and this elaborate
1:59:59 story
2:00:00 like zeus and hercules and whoever it is
2:00:03 or odin and thor and all these different
2:00:06 demigods and gods and goddesses and all
2:00:08 that type of thing you're not going to
2:00:09 come out with that that might develop
2:00:11 later on
2:00:13 yeah but the initial for is one god and
2:00:15 we know
2:00:16 you know uh there's very studies that
2:00:18 demonstrate that
2:00:19 you know children even preschool they
2:00:22 have this innate disposition to want to
2:00:24 believe in a god or supernatural agent
2:00:27 that there are historical evidences of
2:00:30 you know
2:00:31 uh tribes that are cut off from western
2:00:34 civilization that have worshipped one
2:00:36 god so uh
2:00:38 the native tribes of north america there
2:00:40 was a number of tribes that
2:00:42 had belief in one god
2:00:44 as well and other areas so it's not like
2:00:47 even even to be honest even things which
2:00:49 are perceived as traditionally
2:00:51 polytheistic like hinduism
2:00:53 actually have
2:00:55 at the sort of the core philosophical
2:00:57 foundation that actually there's only
2:00:59 one god it's just uh you know and i'm
2:01:01 sure muhammad can explain further
2:01:03 because they've had whole streams about
2:01:05 hindus recently as well regardless of
2:01:07 this so the they are the
2:01:10 and the other thing and just one final
2:01:12 point before i go to the brothers one
2:01:14 final point
2:01:15 in a truly monotheistic belief system
2:01:18 you don't depict god
2:01:19 yeah so you wouldn't have the
2:01:22 archeological evidence compared to
2:01:24 polytheistic religions that have no
2:01:27 problems in depicting gods so if i'm an
2:01:29 archaeologist that's looking back into
2:01:31 history from ten thousand five thousand
2:01:34 years ago
2:01:35 i'm going to see more evidence for
2:01:37 polytheism and anthropographic versions
2:01:40 of god than a monotheistic you know a
2:01:43 transcendental being or a necessary
2:01:46 being of god yeah i'm going to see more
2:01:47 evidence polytheism than that so
2:01:50 you know that's not the basis of
2:01:52 justifying that therefore history means
2:01:55 that we move from politicians into
2:01:56 monetism yeah uh muhammad i don't know
2:01:58 if you've got um
2:02:00 further points because you wanted to add
2:02:02 to that
2:02:04 so
2:02:05 well i'd like to hear the response of
2:02:07 what he thinks of your response first of
2:02:09 all so mr mr no name again um
2:02:13 yeah
2:02:14 but uh
2:02:15 could you briefly summarize what why you
2:02:17 said it again
2:02:18 okay look
2:02:20 guys
2:02:21 okay look in in short statements what
2:02:23 he's saying is if
2:02:25 the evidence historically
2:02:27 is that those societies that
2:02:29 anthropomorphized and create statues of
2:02:32 god would survive because that's the
2:02:34 stuff that survives
2:02:36 right if you have if you have a society
2:02:38 where they believe in a god that is
2:02:40 transcendental
2:02:41 that has no images that cannot be seen
2:02:44 that is not of this
2:02:47 um time-space domain then obviously
2:02:50 there's going to be no evidence for that
2:02:51 because they're not going to depict it
2:02:53 right
2:02:54 so by definition your archaeology is not
2:02:56 going to dig it up
2:02:58 and so so i think it's a bit of a loaded
2:03:00 question where it presupposes
2:03:03 that
2:03:04 archaeological evidence
2:03:06 and science let's call it you know
2:03:09 scientism is the source of truth
2:03:11 because that's essentially what it's
2:03:12 saying you're essentially rigging the
2:03:14 question or begging the answer
2:03:18 by pre-supposing certain boundaries of
2:03:21 where you're going to get your evidence
2:03:22 from
2:03:23 and and that's
2:03:25 a mistake i mean that's not first of all
2:03:27 it's not objective and secondly it's not
2:03:29 honest
2:03:31 i mean it's actually just a dishonest
2:03:32 approach
2:03:34 just to add to that
2:03:36 um
2:03:37 because someone asked me this
2:03:39 well i think someone might have asked me
2:03:40 this question before a couple of points
2:03:42 to mention what sharif mentioned because
2:03:44 naturally well rationally you start off
2:03:46 with one one and then you build on too
2:03:48 many
2:03:50 rather than starting off with many than
2:03:51 one
2:03:52 dr oliver petrich uh conducted some
2:03:55 studies on children and she said belief
2:03:57 in a
2:03:58 non-anthropomorphic god is cognitive
2:04:00 natural and then she says obviously
2:04:02 atheism is an acquired cognitive
2:04:03 position
2:04:04 when based on her studies she found
2:04:06 children was
2:04:09 believed in one god rather than many
2:04:10 gods
2:04:11 and will
2:04:12 now i've got this i was looking for this
2:04:14 point wilhelm skimming i'm not sure if
2:04:16 you guys have heard the name
2:04:18 he's you know he wrote i think five to
2:04:20 ten volumes i think about this topic
2:04:22 where he literally
2:04:24 researches across the globe like from
2:04:27 ancient china to ancient india to all
2:04:29 these different previous civilizations
2:04:31 and he actually found
2:04:33 the earlier you trace
2:04:35 it starts off with one god and then it
2:04:37 evolves to money so he's actually got
2:04:38 his evidences and those of his opponents
2:04:42 actually respected his research and you
2:04:44 know um took his research something you
2:04:46 know that is something strong
2:04:49 um i've got to hear something as well
2:04:51 his hypothesis was non
2:04:53 monotheistic religious had denigrated
2:04:55 from monotheistic basic religions
2:04:58 he used
2:04:59 anthropomorphic research on native
2:05:00 americans australian aborigines and
2:05:03 other civilizations to support his
2:05:05 theory
2:05:06 um and he's got obviously evidence if
2:05:08 you read his actual book
2:05:10 or he's wrote volumes on that
2:05:12 and then finally
2:05:13 i'd say as well
2:05:15 again same thing about what you said
2:05:16 sharif like if you think of it i thought
2:05:18 experiment uh what allah says like you
2:05:21 know when there's danger for example um
2:05:24 that's gonna about to befall upon you
2:05:26 you're not gonna be thinking of
2:05:28 three four five ten gods you're gonna
2:05:30 just naturally call out to one god
2:05:32 which shows obviously it's innate to
2:05:35 believe one god rather than many
2:05:38 uh yeah assad
2:05:40 uh i i have heard um
2:05:42 one guy i think called speakers corner
2:05:45 uk or
2:05:46 um
2:05:46 uh something
2:05:48 i think against sebor
2:05:50 this was like five years ago uh
2:05:52 counteract uh
2:05:53 this uh statement like he he referenced
2:05:56 this video where
2:05:57 um he says uh olivia petrovich she
2:06:00 wasn't like peer reviewed or something
2:06:03 and um
2:06:04 there was also dr justin barrett um
2:06:08 and she also referenced this um you know
2:06:10 daniel everett uh
2:06:12 no i'm not hurt
2:06:15 that's it
2:06:16 yeah um so she she also
2:06:19 referenced daniel everett who um
2:06:22 it's called um
2:06:24 who said who claims it to meet this uh
2:06:27 tribe called the peter
2:06:29 who had no concept of god but the way i
2:06:32 counted it maybe um maybe like the
2:06:35 children because it they also said that
2:06:37 um
2:06:38 that the language of the pure has
2:06:40 monolingual even though that contradicts
2:06:42 because they've been talking
2:06:44 uh the pewter hadn't know a bit of um
2:06:48 uh portuguese but um
2:06:51 that they basically um said that on the
2:06:54 language it shows that the
2:06:57 uh
2:06:59 less likely to know
2:07:00 you know complex said ideas like for
2:07:03 example they don't know numbers they
2:07:05 don't know because they describe
2:07:07 metaphorically like blood for example
2:07:10 uh so
2:07:13 um
2:07:14 yeah
2:07:15 who's this one
2:07:16 so so no name so what you're trying to
2:07:18 say is that this guy's given one example
2:07:20 of a particular tribe that doesn't
2:07:22 believe in god and therefore saying
2:07:23 therefore it can't be innate is that
2:07:25 what you're saying is that why he was
2:07:27 yeah i think yeah i think that's why he
2:07:29 was saying but um i've got some like for
2:07:32 example chris there's christian because
2:07:34 united everett himself he was a
2:07:36 missionary christian and then he
2:07:38 converted
2:07:39 atheism and um
2:07:42 there was um
2:07:43 let's go there are other people
2:07:46 who um
2:07:47 conduct uh conducted searches
2:07:49 because apparently they don't have a
2:07:51 creation myth as well that
2:07:53 that some guy i think it's called forgot
2:07:56 his name but um
2:07:57 because he said um
2:07:59 there was um
2:08:01 there was
2:08:12 i'm just trying to understand that if
2:08:13 that's his if that's the conte if that's
2:08:16 how far you have to go to the contention
2:08:18 to demonstrate that belief in god is not
2:08:21 uh innate
2:08:22 then we say isn't it there's a principle
2:08:25 the exception proves the rule
2:08:27 yeah because if you have to try to
2:08:31 demonstrate an exception
2:08:33 then by definition it's not the norm
2:08:35 because it's the exception
2:08:37 yeah so if you have to get to that stage
2:08:40 in order to demonstrate why one
2:08:43 particular
2:08:44 tribal whatever from outskirts of
2:08:47 whatever believes there's no god then it
2:08:50 and yet you've got all this body of
2:08:52 evidence of you know
2:08:54 theistic beliefs across the world and
2:08:57 across time then it demonstrates
2:08:59 actually that's the norm
2:09:01 and the norm he has to be able to
2:09:03 account for it how's he accounting for
2:09:04 it either evolution
2:09:06 or that it's through some sort of innate
2:09:08 idea
2:09:10 just to bear in mind a lot of this
2:09:12 academic research that's been conducted
2:09:14 by dr paul bloom
2:09:16 these guys are atheists and they're
2:09:18 saying the exact same thing based on
2:09:19 their um research like religion is
2:09:22 natural
2:09:23 i suggest you read that um yeah um
2:09:26 think about it would you choose a talent
2:09:28 like think about it you've got a one
2:09:29 case it the actual studies are showing
2:09:32 look i believe in the greatest innate
2:09:35 let's say hundreds of studies
2:09:36 to show that and then you have one here
2:09:38 that might be whatever what you're going
2:09:40 to choose you know the overwhelming
2:09:42 evidence of one heart or something
2:09:44 that's speculative
2:09:46 yeah um but there's also like because
2:09:48 i've also digged into the pirate hunt
2:09:50 apparently they do have this um
2:09:52 recreation myth like they um
2:09:55 have this re-question method of i think
2:09:58 like
2:09:59 this demi urge that i think they do have
2:10:02 a some concept but um they also have um
2:10:06 they also had claimed to see spirits
2:10:07 like daniel everett himself claimed that
2:10:10 um the pewter out of nowhere just um
2:10:14 started to
2:10:17 said that there was a spirit out in the
2:10:18 desert when he couldn't see it and there
2:10:21 was
2:10:22 um
2:10:23 the spirit was threatening them that if
2:10:25 you go into the jungle they'll he'll
2:10:27 they'll be killed personally but um so
2:10:29 what's the relevance of this point while
2:10:31 you're extracting no he's saying that
2:10:32 this is the answer to this guy who were
2:10:35 arguing against the ball that actually
2:10:37 the study didn't look into this in
2:10:39 detail because they do have a creation
2:10:42 myth and they have some sort of
2:10:44 you know well uh not a creation meth
2:10:46 like it
2:10:48 maybe a recreation myth like the demi
2:10:50 urge
2:10:50 uh
2:10:51 like create like they believe in layers
2:10:53 basically that the world was like um
2:10:56 creating layers like there was a
2:10:58 there's people living in the clouds
2:11:00 there's also but um
2:11:02 i think i also think that
2:11:04 is like a part of the you know the
2:11:06 amazonian
2:11:07 i think that
2:11:08 also maybe native american or
2:11:11 had like fights against native americans
2:11:14 at all
2:11:16 research have conducted
2:11:17 yeah yeah no no it's it's a good point
2:11:20 that you you raise in terms of
2:11:22 uh looking into these uh details but i
2:11:24 think like i said for even if you don't
2:11:26 even if i wasn't to look into these
2:11:28 particular details if that
2:11:30 if they're trying to get one particular
2:11:32 tribe
2:11:33 from the amazon rainforest to justify
2:11:36 that it's not innate i think it's the
2:11:37 opposite i think it's demonstrating that
2:11:39 it's the norm to believe in one god or
2:11:42 believing god at least god or god at
2:11:45 least as the norm and belief in atheism
2:11:48 is not the norm uh it doesn't
2:11:50 necessarily make it
2:11:52 true belief in god but it makes it you
2:11:56 know uh
2:11:57 natural and innate within human beings
2:12:00 to believe in god oh gosh i don't i
2:12:03 don't think it disapproves um the uh
2:12:06 that children that don't believe in god
2:12:09 maybe it's their language and stuff and
2:12:11 maybe they have been like
2:12:12 their culture hasn't learned it but
2:12:14 probably they may have had well when
2:12:16 oliver patrick went to japan and she
2:12:18 asked the children
2:12:19 they even said to her why are you doing
2:12:20 the experiment because we don't have
2:12:23 this idea of god and then when she
2:12:25 showed the children natural objects and
2:12:27 man-made objects so distinction the
2:12:29 children said
2:12:31 god created it in singular the natural
2:12:34 object and she was shocked and even the
2:12:35 japanese around were shocked because
2:12:37 they said we've never taught our
2:12:38 children about the conservative god
2:12:41 yeah but i think what no name is saying
2:12:43 that this particular tribe is that maybe
2:12:46 the language is limited
2:12:48 and
2:12:49 not complex and therefore the ability to
2:12:52 articulate their thoughts
2:12:54 about the supernatural
2:12:56 may not be just
2:12:58 one question
2:13:00 how big was the stripe
2:13:02 how many individuals uh it's not that
2:13:04 much i think there's only like
2:13:06 um they live in the amazon
2:13:09 rent for us but they don't allow
2:13:10 missionaries to go anymore to visit them
2:13:13 because they're trying to convert them
2:13:14 to christianity answer
2:13:17 okay so i mean i've just done a quick
2:13:19 google search on this and there's a very
2:13:21 interesting sociological
2:13:24 sort of actually a paper actually and it
2:13:26 says around 400 people
2:13:28 and they split off from the main tribe
2:13:30 and essentially isolated themselves
2:13:32 right
2:13:33 now
2:13:34 to me that sounds like self-imposed
2:13:37 exile
2:13:38 yeah and then that's what i forgot to
2:13:40 mention i'm sorry yeah so self-imposed
2:13:42 exile and then a degradation in cultural
2:13:47 richness because they've lost actually a
2:13:49 lot of cultural attributes by being
2:13:51 isolated so what you have is what you
2:13:54 have here actually
2:13:55 is not an example of innate belief you
2:13:58 have an example of what happens when
2:14:00 people lose culture
2:14:02 right
2:14:03 when people actually
2:14:04 distance themselves
2:14:06 from the group or people they belong to
2:14:09 what happens is they end up losing what
2:14:11 what they had
2:14:13 and so i think that's really what i mean
2:14:14 to me my quick reading i mean i i sort
2:14:16 of just quick quickly scanned the paper
2:14:18 that's what i'm getting so what i would
2:14:20 say to sharif's point as well is
2:14:23 wonderful
2:14:24 extreme corner case example
2:14:27 but it definitely in no way is evidence
2:14:29 as far as i'm concerned that it's the
2:14:31 standard
2:14:32 default behavior of human beings
2:14:36 oh i think he's gone
2:14:38 he might have left us
2:14:40 maybe what did i say i i wasn't being
2:14:42 harsh or anything
2:14:47 but you say it's a good point all the
2:14:48 areas is back again let me uh try and
2:14:50 grab him back
2:14:52 yeah yeah so i think so fundamentally so
2:14:55 i think this is more of a um
2:14:57 a sociological example of what happens
2:15:00 when
2:15:01 communities are split
2:15:03 and they lose touch with the the larger
2:15:06 body of the community um
2:15:09 so yeah i don't know i mean how would
2:15:11 you respond to that um
2:15:14 there's no response but i also want to
2:15:16 tell you that
2:15:17 um
2:15:18 i've seen the
2:15:19 documentary that of everett then
2:15:23 the pira hadn't
2:15:25 um said that they don't they also don't
2:15:27 want to believe in god so that the best
2:15:29 you just reject it so they because that
2:15:32 they don't really understand it that
2:15:34 much and that's fine yeah you know like
2:15:36 him for example that
2:15:39 daniel everett um tries to claim them as
2:15:42 the ultimate imperial pure list but i
2:15:44 don't think that's the truth because
2:15:45 they they do um
2:15:47 learn about testimony like other
2:15:49 people's um experiences and then they
2:15:51 claim that to be true
2:15:53 so um
2:15:54 for example they denied jesus because he
2:15:56 get for example daniel everett claims
2:15:58 that um they denied jesus because um
2:16:01 everett never saw jesus so they
2:16:04 basically just said oh um
2:16:06 we don't uh
2:16:08 we don't believe in jesus because um
2:16:10 you know
2:16:11 this you haven't seen them or anything
2:16:13 like it for example
2:16:15 right okay look uh yeah so i i would
2:16:18 just add again i think um so
2:16:21 historically i mean amazon tribes have
2:16:22 been known to be very protective
2:16:25 and and and they disallow outsiders in
2:16:27 general anyway they're i mean you've got
2:16:29 to understand as well you know a tribe
2:16:31 that's been isolated is going to be
2:16:33 suspicious when somebody comes in
2:16:35 right and especially somebody that
2:16:36 doesn't look like them
2:16:38 and then the last thing they want
2:16:40 however primitive it is there is at
2:16:42 least some kind of a
2:16:44 um a communal system that they've got
2:16:48 and the last thing they want is for that
2:16:50 communal system to be disrupted because
2:16:52 that's all they know right
2:16:54 so it's understandable they would they
2:16:56 would i think you know refute everett or
2:16:59 or disagree with him but again as i'm
2:17:02 saying like i said before i think this
2:17:03 is more a question of somebody trying to
2:17:05 force
2:17:06 a certain conclusion yeah onto a
2:17:08 scenario
2:17:10 that in my mind is actually a very
2:17:13 uh unique scenario
2:17:15 and it's and it's a historical
2:17:17 happenstance
2:17:18 right
2:17:19 this is something that i think is is
2:17:22 very very unique
2:17:23 um in and of itself so
2:17:26 yeah i mean let's leave it there i think
2:17:27 you know it's a great example i mean
2:17:29 i've never heard of it before but um
2:17:31 i don't think it actually proves
2:17:32 anything either way
2:17:34 okay um
2:17:36 yeah
2:17:37 i don't know if you've got any final
2:17:39 uh questions or points that you're going
2:17:40 to
2:17:42 because we don't have any other guests
2:17:43 so you might be our last guest okay um
2:17:46 final um comments especially um
2:17:49 when we do the um
2:17:52 intro when you do um the q a now i would
2:17:54 like to ask you about for example
2:17:58 science um consciousness like i have
2:18:00 lots of questions about these um things
2:18:02 and um
2:18:04 yeah percy that's a
2:18:06 i have a lot of questions basically
2:18:08 that's all i
2:18:14 no no i think that's fine yeah i mean
2:18:16 you can ask away i mean ask as many
2:18:17 questions as you want but yeah
2:18:20 i think maybe for another for the year
2:18:22 for another
2:18:37 so uh yeah inshallah hopefully we'll see
2:18:40 us uh again in the future streams um
2:18:43 so we i don't know nobody's uh at the
2:18:46 moment nobody's coming up uh oh they're
2:18:49 clearly far too shy today i mean maybe
2:18:52 come on
2:18:53 you know what he's muhammad i think
2:18:55 people don't understand the power of
2:18:57 this argument or the power of this
2:18:58 discussion i don't mean to be like
2:19:01 over exaggerating because people think
2:19:03 what's that yeah because the point here
2:19:06 is this is whenever i discuss
2:19:09 with a non-muslim
2:19:11 and i've got him to agree that a creator
2:19:13 exists
2:19:14 then i follow this pattern and this
2:19:17 pattern if the guy's sincere
2:19:19 yeah he ends up
2:19:21 basically
2:19:22 you know being convinced of islam
2:19:24 inshallah so i i feel
2:19:26 wrong argument because it is it is i
2:19:28 mean i followed it myself with with
2:19:31 several discussions and i think
2:19:32 anybody that either you deny your own
2:19:35 logic
2:19:36 or you deny necessary consequential
2:19:39 consequences of the arguments that
2:19:41 you're placing
2:19:42 and i both of those are impostor um
2:19:45 you're being you're being an imposter to
2:19:46 yourself so
2:19:47 so i think the bottom line here is for
2:19:49 this discussion is
2:19:51 if you're truly looking for a religion
2:19:54 then it's not
2:19:55 do i have a fuzzy feeling
2:19:57 about whether something out there is
2:20:00 right and if it is then you know i
2:20:02 remember
2:20:04 it's quite interesting i remember back
2:20:05 at uni days um just after um i was
2:20:08 talking to somebody and they said um
2:20:11 you know
2:20:13 he went off and joined some cult anyway
2:20:15 and whatever i don't know and i think he
2:20:17 joined because he said oh i like the
2:20:18 food they were cooking
2:20:20 right
2:20:22 that was it i mean that was his whole
2:20:24 sort of
2:20:25 and he said anyway and he said all the
2:20:27 rituals and everything came with it
2:20:28 right but i just really like the food
2:20:31 and i said that's it
2:20:33 i mean that's the only reason you
2:20:34 changed your religion because you like
2:20:36 the food
2:20:38 and and really it was it was it was
2:20:40 i mean it's so
2:20:42 silly
2:20:43 that you think could somebody actually
2:20:45 use that as a conversion mechanism and
2:20:48 it is
2:20:49 if you believe and i think your opening
2:20:50 statement that's the only bit i call is
2:20:52 if you believe religion has no evidence
2:20:57 if you fundamentally believe that there
2:21:00 is no objective criteria with which to
2:21:03 ascertain the truthfulness
2:21:06 of a religious claim
2:21:08 then the next best thing you've got is
2:21:10 personal whims and desires
2:21:13 yeah that's right yeah and so one of the
2:21:15 one of the i think one of the the the uh
2:21:18 the myths that we have to blow here and
2:21:20 really sort of blow out of the water
2:21:22 completely
2:21:23 is
2:21:24 islam is the only religion on the planet
2:21:27 that actually says not only is it
2:21:29 preserved but it has very good reason
2:21:31 and evidence for why it's the truth yeah
2:21:34 and nobody no other religion actually
2:21:36 makes that claim by the way
2:21:39 you know you know you know it is
2:21:40 muhammad you know so we got jawad that's
2:21:42 good we're going to add to the stream
2:21:43 inshallah but just before that you know
2:21:44 his mohammed i've had these discussions
2:21:46 with non-muslims and you go for the
2:21:48 discussion you know i i the last i
2:21:50 remember being at speaker's corner a few
2:21:52 years ago it's going a few years ago and
2:21:54 i was having this discussion with him
2:21:56 about
2:21:57 the
2:21:58 you know first about belief in a creator
2:22:00 and he agreed and then i went to the
2:22:01 quran
2:22:02 and i think with the discussion about
2:22:04 islam is that although you can prove the
2:22:07 creator exists a priori basically
2:22:10 without investigating the claims
2:22:12 initially you know
2:22:14 obviously you have to think through the
2:22:15 arguments
2:22:16 but with the quran and about talking
2:22:18 about linguistic miracles or prophecies
2:22:20 and these types of things then they
2:22:22 require prior knowledge they require
2:22:25 a research yeah so you know he seemed
2:22:28 impressed he seemed to understand he had
2:22:30 contentions yeah and i said to him i
2:22:32 said look irrespective of whether you
2:22:36 agree at this moment in time or not
2:22:38 that's not the point what i want you to
2:22:41 understand
2:22:42 is that muslims make a claim for this
2:22:45 objective criteria absolutely right and
2:22:48 nobody else does and nobody else does
2:22:50 yeah and and and you know and to many of
2:22:53 the non-believers out there i think it's
2:22:55 very important to appreciate that
2:22:57 we don't make these claims
2:23:00 whimsically
2:23:02 right this is built into
2:23:04 the revelation the quran
2:23:06 these claims are built into the
2:23:08 revelation so it's not something we've
2:23:09 come up with afterwards
2:23:11 and and you know four centuries later
2:23:13 you know after after several councils or
2:23:15 whatever this is actually built so
2:23:18 and this is one of the things for me the
2:23:20 question is is if
2:23:22 you think god has revealed something
2:23:25 then god will tell you why it's been
2:23:27 revealed what its purpose is and how to
2:23:29 tell if how to tell truth from falsehood
2:23:31 he would i mean because we have those
2:23:34 capabilities you know we have
2:23:35 rationality
2:23:36 or seeking truthful nurses is a desire
2:23:39 that we have um um staying away from
2:23:44 um sort of abhorrent actions
2:23:48 is something that's inherent in most
2:23:50 inheritance people
2:23:52 everything else can be taught but most
2:23:54 people know that that certain things are
2:23:56 wrong certain things are right and there
2:23:57 is a certain level of wrong and
2:23:59 rightness that you can arrive at
2:24:00 innately anyway brother jawad
2:24:02 assalamu alaikum
2:24:05 welcome
2:24:08 um
2:24:10 i don't want a fanboy too much but i
2:24:12 love you too you know muhammad and
2:24:15 uh sharif oh isn't it
2:24:18 together what a good water combo and
2:24:22 i think i think i'd uh
2:24:25 have a fit if i if imran dr
2:24:41 to be honest to be fair we weren't
2:24:42 planning muhammad to come on but he came
2:24:44 on i thought right last night no
2:24:45 surprise yeah yeah yeah
2:24:47 he kept me now okay it's fine and i
2:24:49 think i think
2:24:50 it's a lot to do with it there's
2:24:52 a side point to why i came on but um i
2:24:56 think it's a lot to do with the fact
2:24:58 that you guys have a
2:24:59 really uh
2:25:01 good way of speaking and simplifying
2:25:04 complicated issues
2:25:05 to you know laymen like us to understand
2:25:09 and you identify some profound points in
2:25:12 all the technical jargon
2:25:14 um
2:25:16 in the last couple of points muhammad
2:25:17 that you made for example
2:25:19 uh amazing you know new information to
2:25:21 me in a really
2:25:23 kind of mind-blowing as well like
2:25:25 that uh
2:25:26 islam is the only religion that makes
2:25:28 the
2:25:29 uh
2:25:31 the claim that it's got objective um
2:25:35 reasons to come yeah
2:25:40 i mean it's something that
2:25:42 we kind of know but we don't know how to
2:25:44 articulate yes no yes
2:25:47 this is so so
2:25:49 let me just stop you there so first of
2:25:50 all zak lockhart and make the world that
2:25:52 we we maintain
2:25:54 our islam and we are successful in this
2:25:57 endeavor that we're doing and again we
2:25:58 do we can't do it without you brothers
2:26:00 and sisters out there by the way um you
2:26:02 know we're just normal people like you
2:26:05 and we just you know conveying you know
2:26:07 the little that we know that's all it is
2:26:10 um
2:26:11 what i would say to this is sometimes
2:26:14 and i i went through this journey myself
2:26:16 is
2:26:18 being born into islam
2:26:20 you actually don't realize it's power
2:26:23 you don't realize its strength
2:26:24 you don't appreciate
2:26:27 how much of a safety net
2:26:30 and how much of a comfort blanket you
2:26:33 have that you're born into
2:26:35 i mean pretty much everything is given
2:26:37 to you
2:26:38 you know i mean
2:26:40 and it's only when you step outside or
2:26:43 you take an outside in perspective
2:26:46 and you look at what other people are
2:26:47 doing to find
2:26:49 their meaning in life and their purpose
2:26:52 that you suddenly say
2:26:54 wow what i mean why are you doing that i
2:26:56 mean why are you climbing to the top of
2:26:58 mountains and and and spending time you
2:27:01 know years in jungles to discover the
2:27:03 truth when it's actually here
2:27:06 and and i think that's part of the part
2:27:08 of the reason which is
2:27:11 i think to really understand islam you
2:27:15 really have to just sort of say
2:27:19 what would it take
2:27:20 for and again only when you interact
2:27:23 with people who've converted you
2:27:24 actually get this right because the
2:27:26 people who convert when they come in
2:27:27 what they the first thing they say and
2:27:30 you see when they do the shahada the
2:27:32 first thing they tell you is it's like a
2:27:34 weight has lifted off my shoulder
2:27:37 that's how they feel like they feel this
2:27:39 sort of openness of the chest and and
2:27:41 they're sort of letting go of of sort of
2:27:44 this sort of pressure that they were
2:27:45 under
2:27:47 right i mean that's sort of how they
2:27:48 explain it
2:27:50 and it's the feeling of you know when
2:27:53 you when you when you i don't know
2:27:54 whether you've ever done like sort of
2:27:55 mountain climbing or whether you've been
2:27:57 abseiling all things right because i
2:27:58 used to do abstaining like years ago
2:28:01 and you know as you're coming down the
2:28:02 face of the cliff
2:28:04 and you're on freefall
2:28:06 you sort of you need to sort of either
2:28:08 you've got your partner at the top that
2:28:10 can hold you or you've got to hold
2:28:11 yourself right
2:28:12 and when you land at the bottom boom you
2:28:14 sort of go
2:28:15 ah
2:28:16 because you know you're safe now
2:28:19 right you know you and that's islam
2:28:22 everybody else they're floating around
2:28:24 out there they're waiting for that and
2:28:26 they never get it and
2:28:27 and imagine
2:28:29 imagine you're waiting for that
2:28:30 foundation and it never arrives
2:28:33 your feet are that you sort of cling on
2:28:35 this
2:28:36 that to me is in my mind the mental
2:28:37 picture that i have of people who are
2:28:39 searching
2:28:40 they think they're on the right path but
2:28:43 they're never going to land
2:28:44 and when you give them islam they
2:28:46 suddenly their feet hits ground
2:28:48 and they go
2:28:50 wow so this is what truth feels like
2:28:52 this is what certainty feels like
2:28:55 because they've never had it before
2:28:58 yeah that's amazing and i think i think
2:29:00 also like
2:29:02 uh
2:29:02 to add to your comment about born
2:29:04 muslims
2:29:05 um that we um
2:29:08 we hear
2:29:09 a lot about the basics of islam very
2:29:11 early on
2:29:12 and our brains aren't developed enough
2:29:14 to really understand the implications of
2:29:16 them
2:29:18 um and then and we don't re we don't
2:29:20 take the time to revisit those points
2:29:22 when we are a bit older and a bit wiser
2:29:25 a bit more have a bit more capacity to
2:29:27 think deeper into things
2:29:28 we don't actually revisit those
2:29:31 those points and
2:29:32 and
2:29:33 you know think about how
2:29:35 it applies to us in different ways
2:29:38 um
2:29:41 and and i think and i think like the
2:29:43 points that you bring out
2:29:45 um
2:29:47 even like then
2:29:49 kind of uh help us
2:29:51 born muslims
2:29:54 revisit those points
2:29:56 um so
2:29:58 for that yeah inshallah
2:30:00 i think
2:30:01 these streams will help inshallah yeah i
2:30:03 think he's like said you make a very
2:30:05 good point which is obviously you
2:30:07 you know we are taught these things as
2:30:09 as born muslims and we don't really
2:30:11 appreciate them and there has to be a
2:30:13 process of going back
2:30:14 as adults
2:30:16 in order to try to appreciate
2:30:17 particularly the foundations of why
2:30:19 we're muslim
2:30:20 and
2:30:21 you know for me uh you know uh you know
2:30:24 hamda i was able to go to various
2:30:25 islamic study circles when i was young
2:30:28 that helped me through this logical
2:30:30 progression
2:30:31 when it comes to the basis of belief you
2:30:33 know i think that's really is quite you
2:30:34 know important you know just like i said
2:30:37 i think we touched upon and we discussed
2:30:39 with mustafin earlier about the criteria
2:30:42 of preservation
2:30:43 and how islam when he looks at the
2:30:46 criteria you know if we assess the
2:30:48 criteria of preservation when we look at
2:30:50 islam in that criteria it's four areas
2:30:52 you've got textual preservation in its
2:30:54 written form you've got the oral
2:30:57 memorization as well you've got the
2:31:00 preservation of the language the arabic
2:31:02 fossa language was preserved not just in
2:31:06 word meaning but also grammar morphology
2:31:09 and balah like idioms of language and
2:31:12 you've got
2:31:13 preservation of the phonetics of how to
2:31:16 pronounce the letters yeah so now you
2:31:18 apply that
2:31:20 into any other religion out there you
2:31:22 don't have that yeah and that's a very
2:31:25 powerful
2:31:26 uh you know um
2:31:28 view and in same way in terms of the
2:31:30 external criteria evidence like the
2:31:32 objective evidence for islam
2:31:34 which of the religion has that you know
2:31:36 which other religion claims irrespective
2:31:38 whether a person assesses it to be true
2:31:40 or false as a separate discussion
2:31:42 how to prove these things were preserved
2:31:45 but the fact that islam claims these
2:31:47 things or at least muslims claim that
2:31:49 there's a there's a clear preservation
2:31:52 of its text and the language that goes
2:31:54 with the meaning of that text
2:31:56 so
2:31:57 you know it's a very powerful argument
2:32:00 and point and i think you know there are
2:32:03 going to be points and steps that we're
2:32:04 not going to have all knowledge of so
2:32:06 i'm not going to have all the knowledge
2:32:07 of the manuscript evidence that
2:32:10 justifies that you know 95 or over 95 of
2:32:13 the quran was preserved or that we have
2:32:16 the manuscript evidence you know today
2:32:18 from the first century yeah uh preserved
2:32:21 first
2:32:22 but
2:32:23 at the very least if i'm making a an
2:32:25 assessment one religion we don't know
2:32:28 who wrote the books one religion we do
2:32:30 know who wrote the book which one would
2:32:32 i assume to be more correct it's gonna
2:32:34 be the one where we know who were the
2:32:36 scribes at the very least or the method
2:32:40 of preservation was the other one we
2:32:42 don't even know who actually wrote it
2:32:44 yeah
2:32:45 so um yeah so i think it's there's a few
2:32:47 things that we can take uh uh you know
2:32:50 in terms of understanding from from this
2:32:52 and i think this is what i tend to do is
2:32:54 when i discuss this with uh non-muslims
2:32:56 in the tower is that i try to explain to
2:32:58 them
2:32:59 what the type of claim muslims are
2:33:00 giving on these issues yeah jordan i
2:33:03 don't know if you've got any final
2:33:04 comments or questions that you want to
2:33:05 raise sorry
2:33:07 yeah i i actually didn't
2:33:10 we kept talking about things um
2:33:12 so the
2:33:14 the um point i came on
2:33:16 um
2:33:18 to ask about was the um
2:33:21 earlier we were discussing or you guys
2:33:23 were discussing the
2:33:24 um
2:33:26 the idea that
2:33:28 um
2:33:29 survivability is more important
2:33:32 for the evolutionary process than truth
2:33:35 and i wanted to
2:33:37 ask you guys to explore a bit more
2:33:40 um the implications of that like so what
2:33:43 you know i i i was interacting in the
2:33:46 chat earlier on and saw a son
2:33:50 you know responds saying
2:33:51 um
2:33:52 truth and survivability are related
2:33:55 so
2:33:56 what do you guys say to that
2:33:58 so the reason why i'm quoting you know
2:34:01 paraphrasing if you want to say or
2:34:02 summarizing is is a research done by
2:34:04 professor donald hoffman so he made this
2:34:07 research on this particular topic area
2:34:09 so he was just demonstrating that
2:34:11 there's not a necessary link between
2:34:14 survivability and truth yeah
2:34:17 uh and he you know he gives various
2:34:19 analogies um about how
2:34:22 as human beings do we actually see the
2:34:23 truth of the matter or do we see a
2:34:25 representation
2:34:27 you know of what's really going on yeah
2:34:29 so we don't actually know and emmanuel
2:34:31 kent you know famously talked about this
2:34:34 issue which is about as human beings we
2:34:36 have phenomena what we see what we
2:34:39 comprehend but there's pneumonia newman
2:34:41 is reality as it is so there's reality
2:34:43 as we perceive it and there's reality as
2:34:45 it is
2:34:46 and so donald hoffman he gives like the
2:34:48 analogy of windows
2:34:50 on your computer
2:34:52 so when you drag the like the icon
2:34:56 of a document into the bin
2:34:59 and you see it going to the bin yeah he
2:35:01 goes that's just a representation of
2:35:05 reality that's not what that's not
2:35:07 reality yeah reality is what's occurring
2:35:09 in terms of circuitry yeah
2:35:12 that but what you're seeing is just
2:35:13 simply representation and so that
2:35:15 representation is not the truth of the
2:35:18 reality yeah it's just the perception of
2:35:21 what's occurring
2:35:22 so
2:35:23 donald hoffman basically he just
2:35:24 demonstrates that uh he he basically
2:35:27 develops an algorithm a mathematical
2:35:29 algorithm which uh you know puts through
2:35:32 the computer to demonstrate that in
2:35:34 evolution
2:35:36 evolution
2:35:37 tends to
2:35:39 [Music]
2:35:42 select for survivability as opposed to
2:35:44 true finding the implication of that is
2:35:47 can we trust our true truth bearing
2:35:50 capacity can we actually know what truth
2:35:53 is
2:35:54 now
2:35:56 you have two problems here you have like
2:35:58 a skeptical problem yeah so this is this
2:36:00 idea that if you based our rationality
2:36:03 upon
2:36:04 materialism and evolution then we cannot
2:36:08 ground truth
2:36:09 yeah so you have this problem that we
2:36:11 can never know what's right or wrong
2:36:13 yeah and then you've got another problem
2:36:15 which is or not another problem but
2:36:17 another angle to this which you say well
2:36:18 actually intuitively i do believe there
2:36:21 are truths so i'm what they term a
2:36:23 realist about truth true propositions do
2:36:27 exist now if true prophecies do exist
2:36:30 how do i ground that truth it cannot be
2:36:33 through evolution because that account
2:36:35 that selects the survivability and does
2:36:37 not necessarily select for truth bearing
2:36:40 uh
2:36:41 capacities and we can never know
2:36:43 actually that's the other problem you
2:36:45 never know whether survivability and
2:36:47 truth are correspondent to each other
2:36:50 yeah we just know that it's
2:36:51 survivability
2:36:53 so
2:36:54 therefore if we're realist about truth
2:36:56 meaning we believe that true
2:36:57 propositions really exist outside of our
2:37:00 minds
2:37:01 then the way to ground it would be a
2:37:04 transcendental being
2:37:06 yeah a necessary mind type of thing
2:37:08 that's what they would argue so this
2:37:10 would be like a transcendental argument
2:37:13 for the existence of god yeah
2:37:15 so
2:37:16 obviously the premise of the argument is
2:37:18 but upon an intuition the intuition is
2:37:20 is that we do have truths and we can be
2:37:24 rationally rational now if that jewish
2:37:26 intuition is true and i'm sure people
2:37:28 like essan would want that intuition to
2:37:31 be true then that would the pattern of
2:37:34 the argument
2:37:35 would assume therefore some sort of
2:37:37 transcendental necessary being in order
2:37:39 to ground our ability to know truths
2:37:42 yeah so that would be the general
2:37:43 argument for that i think we're going to
2:37:45 have separate streams where we go into
2:37:47 more detail about transcendental
2:37:49 arguments for the existence of god
2:37:50 because not just one there's various
2:37:52 various arguments for it
2:37:54 so we can't ground truth um unless we
2:37:58 have
2:37:59 a transcendental being
2:38:02 to objectify
2:38:04 yeah so the argument would be
2:38:07 is
2:38:08 if we say that we can know what that
2:38:11 there are true proposition we can know
2:38:13 those two propositions
2:38:15 the only way that we can know those true
2:38:17 propositions
2:38:19 is
2:38:19 if we can uh
2:38:21 any uh
2:38:24 from a materialist point of view is to
2:38:25 assume that evolution
2:38:28 um
2:38:29 selects
2:38:30 the ability to know what true
2:38:31 propositions are does that make sense
2:38:33 yeah and we and
2:38:35 we can do that and we know that that
2:38:38 ever the evolutionary process
2:38:40 doesn't do that
2:38:43 survivability
2:38:44 either even if this is a point even if
2:38:47 we didn't have professor donald
2:38:48 hoffman's research on this area so even
2:38:50 if we did leave that to the side and we
2:38:53 say okay we just have evolution
2:38:55 yeah
2:38:56 and therefore the ability for human
2:38:58 beings to determine the ideas that they
2:39:00 have
2:39:00 evolved there's no way of saying that
2:39:03 that evolutionary process could have
2:39:06 established truth because you have to
2:39:08 step outside your mind yeah to measure
2:39:11 it is knowing the truth yeah yeah i'll
2:39:14 do that
2:39:15 and that's why they talk about
2:39:16 externalist
2:39:18 or extrinsic view of knowledge an
2:39:21 extrinsic view of knowledge is say that
2:39:23 knowledge which may be defined as
2:39:26 you know what corresponds to reality or
2:39:28 the the person believes that this
2:39:30 corresponds to reality uh or a true
2:39:33 justified true belief is another way of
2:39:35 saying it so if a person
2:39:38 believes that you can have knowledge
2:39:40 trust justify true beliefs
2:39:42 he's either going to be in in
2:39:44 internalist or intrinsic meaning that
2:39:47 comes from himself
2:39:49 and the material form that he's made up
2:39:51 of but then he's got a problem
2:39:54 how do you know because you have to step
2:39:56 outside your mind to be able to make
2:39:57 that assessment but you can't do that or
2:40:00 you're externalist which means that it's
2:40:02 actually given to us
2:40:04 yeah
2:40:05 and so therefore you have to invoke some
2:40:07 sort of for an abductive way best
2:40:10 explanation that there must be some sort
2:40:12 of necessary being with the ability to
2:40:16 make rational judgments to give us the
2:40:18 ability to make a rational judgment i
2:40:20 just got a quick question about that so
2:40:22 in terms of like mathematics let's take
2:40:24 for example two plus two is four
2:40:25 obviously if all human beings were wiped
2:40:27 out
2:40:28 um
2:40:30 that would still remain true
2:40:31 meaning
2:40:33 the truth of that statement is not
2:40:34 dependent on our mind
2:40:36 exists externally to our minds so even
2:40:38 if the physical world tomorrow was to
2:40:40 vanish
2:40:41 two plus two would still necessarily be
2:40:43 four
2:40:44 and even if we all were to vanish it
2:40:46 will still remain true which means it's
2:40:48 truthfulness it's not grounded in our
2:40:50 minds
2:40:51 it must be external uh what do you think
2:40:53 of that point
2:40:55 uh yeah yeah so that's it
2:40:58 mentions this that's yes that's another
2:41:01 discovered rather than invented
2:41:03 basically mathematics logic um these
2:41:05 things are um discovered
2:41:08 right
2:41:09 invented
2:41:11 so there's there's different arguments
2:41:12 when it comes to the transcendental
2:41:14 argument for the existence of god so
2:41:15 that's one argument that i mentioned
2:41:17 which is that if we believe that
2:41:19 we can be rational then how do you
2:41:22 ground that rationality
2:41:24 and we're realist about that so there
2:41:26 are some propositions and we can know
2:41:28 those true propositions how do we
2:41:30 determine that then you need sort of an
2:41:32 externalist explanation for that the
2:41:34 other argument is say that okay there
2:41:36 are these necessary facts
2:41:38 yeah these necessary truths now these
2:41:40 necessary truths
2:41:43 they have mental content
2:41:45 yeah
2:41:46 they're sort of about something aren't
2:41:48 they so when you talk about two plus two
2:41:49 equals four or when you talk about uh
2:41:52 law of non-contradiction all of these
2:41:54 things they're about they're an idea
2:41:57 yeah so the truth bearer is this
2:42:00 yeah it's not so when i say
2:42:02 if i say for example and this is like
2:42:04 the classic example that's used in this
2:42:06 argument the grass is green i can say
2:42:09 the grass is green in english in french
2:42:12 in urdu in arabic whatever language
2:42:15 but what contains the truth transcends
2:42:18 the particular language that i'm using
2:42:20 yes
2:42:22 because it's not just the language i'm
2:42:24 using that makes it the truth bearer
2:42:26 it's something external to language
2:42:29 because it can mean yeah i could do it
2:42:30 in no binary code say the grass is green
2:42:33 or morse code or whatever yeah
2:42:36 so the truth bearer is this mental
2:42:39 content
2:42:40 yeah now if it's a mental content then
2:42:44 what any uh grounds that mental content
2:42:48 and so people would generally say oh not
2:42:50 people some philosophers argue i think
2:42:52 it's james anderson's written a paper on
2:42:54 this and he's argues that the the truth
2:42:57 of that sorry the mental content needs
2:42:59 to be grounded in a necessary mind and
2:43:01 he uses this as a transcendental
2:43:03 argument for existence of god and
2:43:06 he's had debates with alex malpass on
2:43:08 this particular issue yeah sorry jordan
2:43:10 we've gone on a little bit i don't know
2:43:12 if there's any uh
2:43:13 further points that you want to know
2:43:16 um thanks for clearing that off um and
2:43:19 uh
2:43:20 yeah like a reminder for myself and
2:43:22 others as well um but yeah that's that's
2:43:25 it for me
2:43:35 sorry child we've got no more guests now
2:43:37 uh so that that's uh that's good um
2:43:40 uh so we can finish early no you know
2:43:43 humber that we have been going on for
2:43:44 two hours 40 minutes
2:43:46 uh so you know it has flown by there
2:43:50 so
2:43:51 inshallah appreciate you coming on
2:43:52 muhammad i don't know the surprise guest
2:43:55 surprise guest that's right anything no
2:43:57 no i i i i see first time i've seen
2:43:59 brother muthassan i've seen your name on
2:44:02 on various chats and things
2:44:04 great great to meet you
2:44:06 virtually meet you
2:44:08 um no i i think i mean as brother jawad
2:44:11 said i think this is one of the most
2:44:13 underrated discussions
2:44:15 and underrated points that we never talk
2:44:18 about and i think we need to make this
2:44:19 more and more you know you talk about
2:44:21 mormons earlier i thought who mentioned
2:44:23 them i think um
2:44:24 um
2:44:25 brother monsoon had a discussion at
2:44:27 speaker's corner last week or the week
2:44:29 before or this week i don't remember
2:44:30 when and
2:44:33 it was quite interesting he had exactly
2:44:34 the same discussion he said look
2:44:36 you know why do you believe what you
2:44:37 believe
2:44:38 give me your evidence
2:44:40 and then he said well let me tell you
2:44:42 about islam
2:44:43 and the
2:44:44 moment he mentioned islam has objective
2:44:47 evidence the guy says
2:44:49 you you mean to say religion can
2:44:51 actually be proved
2:44:54 you mean to say there is objective
2:44:56 evidence out there
2:44:58 i said yes i mean why would they not be
2:45:01 and
2:45:02 just that state i mean you don't you
2:45:03 need to stop there because you've just
2:45:05 blown the guy's brain
2:45:07 right you've just taken away an entire
2:45:10 pedestal of his world view
2:45:13 where he viewed reality i mean talking
2:45:15 about truth and reality and truth
2:45:17 seeking and so on where he thought
2:45:19 all he had to do was just trust his
2:45:21 feelings
2:45:23 and and that was enough
2:45:25 and then he comes across
2:45:29 another community another person that
2:45:31 probably he would never have interacted
2:45:33 with that says actually
2:45:36 what you
2:45:37 the way you believe
2:45:40 is inadequate
2:45:41 and that's the key thing
2:45:43 it's not that believing is wrong i mean
2:45:46 we know
2:45:47 nobody can force you to believe nobody
2:45:49 can force you to not believe but the
2:45:51 methodology by which you arrive at
2:45:53 believe is faulty and inadequate
2:45:56 let us show you a better one
2:45:59 and this i think needs
2:46:01 to be said more loudly and and and we
2:46:04 need to actually make it clear actually
2:46:06 in our streams that this is what we're
2:46:08 about yeah yeah i mean muhammad as well
2:46:10 i think the point being about the the to
2:46:12 the topic today obviously is about
2:46:14 rational filters right of course
2:46:16 no no but what you're saying is
2:46:18 absolutely perfectly correct
2:46:20 but i think what people sometimes people
2:46:23 think is
2:46:24 uh even in the dao i'm talking about is
2:46:27 i have to be like a
2:46:29 islam of every religion i talk to
2:46:33 yeah no
2:46:34 yeah and the point here is this is that
2:46:36 if you understand the rational filters
2:46:39 yeah
2:46:40 you can already you've already got a
2:46:42 criteria
2:46:44 perfect muslim you've already got
2:46:46 criteria in your head
2:46:48 to be able even if you have very little
2:46:50 knowledge of what they're saying
2:46:52 to be able to understand and analyze
2:46:55 what they're saying and make them
2:46:57 understand what you're saying as well
2:47:00 yeah so it's uh it's really important
2:47:02 that guys that want to engage in this
2:47:05 not just for themselves in order to
2:47:06 understand but also to engage
2:47:09 these types of discussions this rational
2:47:11 filter discussion is really important
2:47:13 you know i think mustache remember when
2:47:14 we had that discussion with the mormons
2:47:16 as well
2:47:17 yeah and the most first discussion we
2:47:20 had with them well we just talked about
2:47:21 belief in a creator isn't it why is the
2:47:23 creator necessary yeah yeah i remember i
2:47:24 remember that one yeah yeah all we did
2:47:27 was we did a bit of research about
2:47:28 mormonism we found out they believed
2:47:30 that god is basically a limited type
2:47:33 creature or a contingent being basically
2:47:36 they get to become well in they get to
2:47:38 become god right yeah yeah yeah
2:47:42 they get to run their own universe by
2:47:43 the way exactly you know
2:47:45 yeah i mean this is weird it's crazy i
2:47:48 spent a long time looking into this as
2:47:50 well yeah so that's the point now i
2:47:52 don't need to go into
2:47:54 the debate about what does the book of
2:47:56 mormon say
2:47:58 i don't need to because this goes back
2:48:00 to what we also in the in the beginning
2:48:02 we talked about the incorrect criterias
2:48:04 because i could have said to him oh how
2:48:07 ridiculous you believed that you saw an
2:48:09 angel
2:48:10 yes that's not the right criteria yeah
2:48:13 because that it doesn't make it true or
2:48:15 false
2:48:16 yeah it's a possibility it's a logically
2:48:18 possible thing that i named your game
2:48:20 what makes it true or false is something
2:48:22 else yeah so it's not the plausibility
2:48:24 implausibility of the claim that we're
2:48:26 going to use so we just so you know we
2:48:28 must
2:48:29 we just talked to them about their god
2:48:32 claim yeah yes right
2:48:34 so actually that's actually a very
2:48:36 powerful statement i i don't want to
2:48:37 miss it because so allah tells us
2:48:40 there's many many things in the unseen
2:48:42 right
2:48:43 and of those he's only described to us a
2:48:46 few very very few
2:48:48 so therefore if we go down the road of
2:48:51 you know something is ridiculous or
2:48:52 whatever
2:48:53 then actually no because there are many
2:48:55 many unseen things that we have no idea
2:48:57 about
2:48:58 yes
2:48:59 so
2:49:00 this doesn't make it true or false just
2:49:02 because somebody puts an unseen argument
2:49:04 of incredulity
2:49:06 right you know wherever they come from
2:49:08 this is not this is not a position but i
2:49:10 think you're right i think
2:49:11 often those tactics by by the other side
2:49:15 are used to almost like a diversionary
2:49:17 tactic
2:49:18 they used to divert away from the main
2:49:20 discussion because they know
2:49:23 instinctively intuitively or with
2:49:24 knowledge that they cannot argue their
2:49:27 position on god
2:49:29 yeah and so therefore let's go to the
2:49:31 side points or let's attack something
2:49:34 else or let's discuss something else
2:49:36 because i know the core of it i can't
2:49:38 actually discuss well the key to islam
2:49:41 is we start with allah
2:49:43 right and and that's how you should
2:49:46 finish the discussion as well is
2:49:48 do you have a correct understanding if
2:49:49 you don't then everything else is
2:49:51 peripheral and actually pointless
2:49:53 exactly yeah yeah okay mom any any news
2:49:57 or doubt why is any channel yes so we
2:49:59 have a we have a stream tomorrow uh
2:50:01 inshallah um and um it's gonna be
2:50:04 interesting q a
2:50:06 uh but we've um
2:50:08 we we're really sort of moving into i
2:50:11 think um
2:50:12 developing more frequent programs moving
2:50:14 forward and maybe more on hinduism as
2:50:15 well uh so yeah because the hashim is
2:50:17 focusing on that
2:50:20 so alhamdulillah
2:50:36 right any final thoughts
2:50:39 oh before you do your final thoughts i
2:50:41 just need to do this i need to uh
2:50:43 uh jazakallah khair to musk
2:50:46 uh kashim who became a youtube member to
2:50:48 our channel i appreciate that
2:50:51 uh and also uh jazokai for the super
2:50:55 chat from dao dude
2:50:57 uh who wrote alhamdulillah brother
2:50:59 khalil is now destroying atheist
2:51:01 leftists right he was convinced here on
2:51:04 tap uh yeah alhamdulillah
2:51:07 uh also you also used to be known as uh
2:51:10 justin so yeah uh jazakallah for the
2:51:13 support uh and you know we make glad
2:51:15 that you know we strengthen our channel
2:51:17 and also strengthen his channel and
2:51:19 himself inshallah and give him the best
2:51:20 in this life and in thereafter i mean
2:51:23 uh so yes so i don't know if you've got
2:51:25 any uh
2:51:27 we've got somebody that's just come on
2:51:29 merci muslim
2:51:31 what's that what does that mean
2:51:34 let's see i don't know
2:51:36 i've got like five i've got about 10
2:51:37 minutes left okay we'll quickly put you
2:51:39 on really quickly we were going to end
2:51:41 but we just quickly
2:51:44 uh
2:51:47 are you muslims for jesus brother we
2:51:49 already for jesus
2:51:53 well i am a muslim muslim because
2:51:57 the quran says
2:51:59 that
2:52:00 whoever follows jesus will disappear in
2:52:03 the sight of allah
2:52:06 so that makes me a muslim muslim
2:52:09 okay
2:52:10 all muslims believe that we
2:52:19 are you a christian
2:52:20 i think the thing is we should keep it
2:52:23 to the topic
2:52:24 i know but i want to use this as an
2:52:26 as a evidence in point
2:52:28 okay yeah they're going are you
2:52:31 christian or do you believe
2:52:34 i'm a massive muslim a muslim who
2:52:37 follows
2:52:38 azerothisa
2:52:40 yeah but what does that mean does that
2:52:41 do you believe that jesus is god the son
2:52:43 of god
2:52:45 oh that is the biggest blend that
2:52:47 christianity has done taking jesus to be
2:52:49 god
2:52:50 okay no no
2:52:52 you don't believe that
2:52:54 no i don't believe i do believe that he
2:52:57 is
2:52:58 uh the source of god's compassion and
2:53:01 mercy because the quran says
2:53:04 whoever follows jesus
2:53:07 is going to fill their hearts with
2:53:08 compassion and mercy
2:53:13 where does it say that yeah we can just
2:53:15 quote the verse let's see which chapter
2:53:18 surah 57 was 27.
2:53:22 oh my keep watching
2:53:24 get it up see what the actual is
2:53:27 and then we sent after them our
2:53:29 messengers and we sent issa son of mary
2:53:33 and gave him the injeel and we ordained
2:53:35 in the hearts of those who followed him
2:53:38 compassion and mercy but the monasticism
2:53:41 which they invented for themselves we
2:53:43 did not prescribe for them but they
2:53:45 sought it only to please allah there
2:53:48 with
2:53:49 but that they did not observe it with
2:53:51 the right observance so we gave those
2:53:54 among them who believed their jew reward
2:53:57 but many of them are farsi boone
2:53:59 rebellious disobedience to allah
2:54:04 yeah so did you get it
2:54:07 does the verse say that or not
2:54:10 no the verse says well
2:54:12 before we go into the ordained in the
2:54:15 hearts of those who followed him
2:54:16 compassion and mercy
2:54:24 irrespective of that what i'm trying to
2:54:25 understand is how do you follow
2:54:28 how what's where's he where's like the
2:54:30 material to follow jesus
2:54:32 allah
2:54:34 well
2:54:35 why does the quran instruct us to follow
2:54:38 hazard east sir if there's no material
2:54:41 let me ask you why yes so where i'm
2:54:43 asking you where is this material
2:54:46 there got to be some material somewhere
2:54:50 do you know where it is
2:54:52 i'm asking you you're the one that's
2:54:54 making the claim
2:54:56 well the claim i'm making is the quran
2:54:58 says and this is a very important verse
2:55:02 there's nothing to laugh about
2:55:04 no i'm not i'm not
2:55:05 i'm not i'm asking you the question
2:55:07 again where is it there we go the other
2:55:09 guy is
2:55:10 like laughing
2:55:11 like it says god ordained in the hearts
2:55:15 of those who followed jesus compassion
2:55:17 and mercy
2:55:18 right yes
2:55:22 let me complete let me complete
2:55:25 now once a person's heart is filled with
2:55:27 compassion and mercy and that is through
2:55:30 following hazrat isa
2:55:32 he will become a positive force for
2:55:35 humanity
2:55:36 and surah
2:55:39 3
2:55:41 says
2:55:42 55
2:55:44 all those who follow jesus because you
2:55:46 said this is in the past now surah 3 55
2:55:50 says
2:55:50 that's not my question
2:55:53 my question is very specifically
2:55:55 please please please please
2:55:58 address the question if you can
2:56:00 how do we how do we follow jesus
2:56:03 what's the material that we look for
2:56:05 basically that's this is what the quran
2:56:07 says follow him so the material is there
2:56:09 in the quran itself
2:56:11 so it's the quran you're saying so we
2:56:13 follow the quran in order to know how to
2:56:15 follow jesus
2:56:17 yes that's
2:56:18 of course one mythology you can also say
2:56:21 okay because allah is instructing
2:56:23 prophet muhammad sallam
2:56:26 in surah yunus
2:56:29 when in doubt
2:56:30 as to what needs to be done
2:56:33 go
2:56:34 and
2:56:35 look at the scriptures of the old which
2:56:37 is the
2:56:38 torah and the
2:56:41 you go to the new testament as well
2:56:44 uh new and the old testament because god
2:56:46 does not start with the quran and god
2:56:50 because prior to that god is in
2:56:52 authenticating other books too
2:56:55 okay there there has been you know thank
2:56:58 you for the old corruption and all that
2:57:00 stuff there is corruption you believe
2:57:02 that there was corruption to the old
2:57:04 testament and new testament of course
2:57:06 you said it has been because nothing has
2:57:08 come down in written form jumped from
2:57:10 heaven
2:57:13 the verse doesn't say when you're in
2:57:15 doubt it says if you're in doubt it's
2:57:16 conditional so you should call that
2:57:18 properly first
2:57:20 okay let's say it when in doubt or if in
2:57:22 doubt so basically because it says when
2:57:25 in doubt how to follow him it doesn't
2:57:27 say when in doubt
2:57:29 okay let's say if in doubt how to follow
2:57:31 him let's say if in doubt when to follow
2:57:34 him
2:57:35 go and look at the scriptures of the
2:57:36 past
2:57:39 so i'm trying to be clear yeah so
2:57:42 we agreed that we agree that we follow
2:57:45 the quran obviously we agree with that
2:57:47 we agree that the story of isla islam is
2:57:50 not told in detail in the quran you
2:57:52 agree with that don't you how he prayed
2:57:55 how he fasted
2:57:56 those are not details that are
2:57:58 explicated within the quran itself
2:58:02 yeah basically it's not there in the
2:58:04 quran but uh
2:58:06 so next so the next thing is you're
2:58:08 saying well we go to the new testament
2:58:10 but the new testament's been corrupted
2:58:11 as you agreed as well didn't you
2:58:14 the new crescent has been corrupted of
2:58:16 course i'm saying because
2:58:18 so how do you how do you now ensure that
2:58:21 what you now follow
2:58:23 within the new testament is not the
2:58:25 uncorrupted part
2:58:27 because it should jive with what allah
2:58:30 is saying in the quran right okay
2:58:34 but this is the point the problem is
2:58:35 that if the quran is generally silent on
2:58:39 a large part of isa alaihissalam's
2:58:40 prophethood
2:58:42 you know then on what basis can we now
2:58:44 justify um
2:58:47 the those areas which where the quran is
2:58:50 silent upon us know that that actually
2:58:52 is what jesus said and did
2:58:55 you see it's again the key point is
2:58:57 whoever follows jesus his heart will be
2:58:59 filled with compassion and mercy now
2:59:01 nowhere does the quran says if you fall
2:59:03 if you pray five times a day your heart
2:59:05 will be filled with compassion and mercy
2:59:07 nor does it say other stuff it says
2:59:09 whoever follows jesus so how do you
2:59:12 follow jesus you have to look at the
2:59:13 scriptures of the pastor
2:59:15 as the surah yunus says now but you see
2:59:18 the problem that i have missed
2:59:20 the problem i have is that we both agree
2:59:23 it's corrupted
2:59:24 we both agree
2:59:26 according to the quran it's true so if
2:59:29 there's stories which are in accordance
2:59:30 to the quran and the quran affirms it
2:59:33 then we can affirm it to be like part of
2:59:35 revelation but if they are not affirmed
2:59:38 then we're going to have a problem
2:59:41 in terms of being able to verify whether
2:59:43 it's true or not yeah but merced look i
2:59:45 apologize
2:59:47 i'm gonna do it
2:59:49 you see if not affirmed
2:59:51 but what we have to see what is affirmed
2:59:54 so if it's affirmed that means we follow
2:59:57 it whether it's we can we do have god
3:00:00 has given us the ability
3:00:02 uh to see what is corrupted and what's
3:00:04 not corrupted
3:00:06 yeah right now take me seriously god is
3:00:08 corrupted
3:00:09 yeah
3:00:11 i will answer that question but we're
3:00:13 going to have to go there so and i think
3:00:15 it's a slightly separate topic that
3:00:16 we're going to have anyway
3:00:17 uh but appreciate you coming on uh thank
3:00:20 you very much
3:00:22 maybe we can have a discussion on the
3:00:24 next stream obviously we're going to
3:00:26 have to go apologies yeah
3:00:28 just one minute because the gentleman
3:00:30 said that uh one minute
3:00:33 we're going to have to go
3:00:35 you don't want to
3:00:42 and you can have the you can engage the
3:00:45 heart's content if you come on early
3:00:46 within the stream okay could you please
3:00:48 do me a favor when you go and study
3:00:50 these scriptures which i've given you so
3:00:52 that next time we come
3:00:54 you have an answer okay i already given
3:00:56 you the answer but that's fine yeah okay
3:00:58 then thank you bye
3:01:01 okay right okay then yeah so i think
3:01:04 mercia was uh
3:01:06 we're gonna have to end but i think this
3:01:08 is the problem that messi has got is
3:01:10 that he's trying to affirm the scripture
3:01:12 of the new testament while affirming
3:01:14 that it's corrupted and agreeing that
3:01:16 what is in line with the quran is
3:01:18 acceptable but then what we have is we
3:01:21 have very little details about the
3:01:22 specific actions
3:01:24 and and events at the time of isa
3:01:27 so the only thing that we have is an
3:01:29 unverified document which is you know
3:01:32 the new testament you know it could be
3:01:34 correct it could not be correct and the
3:01:36 mufasarin generally when they looked at
3:01:38 like the
3:01:40 previous scriptures they classified
3:01:42 their verses into three areas that which
3:01:43 agrees with the quran
3:01:45 would be acceptable that which disagrees
3:01:48 with the quran would be rejected and
3:01:49 that which
3:01:50 does neither quran agrees nor disagrees
3:01:52 with
3:01:53 the muslims would remain silent as to
3:01:55 whether it was part of revelation or not
3:01:57 so that's a general assault that we take
3:02:00 on this particular issue yeah just a
3:02:02 side point as well because a lot of
3:02:03 christians say that the quran affirms
3:02:05 you know the bible but the quran doesn't
3:02:07 affirm the crucifixion
3:02:09 it doesn't affirm jesus being the son of
3:02:11 god god it pretty much contradicts every
3:02:13 aspect of your main theology so how can
3:02:15 the quran affirm the new testament
3:02:17 when it contradicts the new testament at
3:02:19 a fundamental level
3:02:20 and even at best when he
3:02:23 um his tafsir of surah bakra i79 about
3:02:26 you know walter those who write the
3:02:27 books with their own hand and say this
3:02:29 is from allah he understood that to mean
3:02:31 the previous scriptures
3:02:33 i of the christians on the jews
3:02:37 that's just thought yeah
3:02:39 we'll have a whole stream on these types
3:02:41 of topic areas later on inshallah uh but
3:02:44 jazakallahu mustafa for those of you
3:02:46 that came a little bit late i recommend
3:02:48 you to listen to the first part of the
3:02:49 show where we go for the rational
3:02:51 filters where we discuss this topic area
3:02:54 uh in in more depth where we talk about
3:02:57 irrational filters and we go through the
3:02:58 various criterias and how important
3:03:01 these criterias are
3:03:02 uh
3:03:03 not just as a muslim but just even just
3:03:05 generally as a human being in order to
3:03:07 have them
3:03:08 uh but joseph left her mustache in
3:03:10 hopefully
3:03:14 we need to maybe produce the more
3:03:17 detailed version of your presentation or
3:03:19 get it out there in the public in short
3:03:21 yeah inshallah
3:03:23 and the unique aspects of quran as well
3:03:25 we've got presentation on that
3:03:26 yeah definitely we're going to have a
3:03:28 whole stream
3:03:30 about the quran as well
3:03:36 yeah that's fine
3:03:37 okay
3:03:44 and audience members uh we i'm going to
3:03:47 go i'll hopefully ensure that i'm going
3:03:49 to do this
3:03:50 um
3:03:51 you know ending the stream in the right
3:03:53 way normally i do it in the in a bad way
3:03:55 but inshallah hopefully inshallah i'll
3:03:58 do it correctly uh jazaka for listening
3:04:01 uh remember like share subscribe and
3:04:04 hopefully enjoy we'll see you guys in
3:04:05 the next couple of weeks we've actually
3:04:07 going to release a video
3:04:08 really good video this probably thursday
3:04:11 uh it's actually a debate where
3:04:13 abdulrahman he gets properly grilled on
3:04:16 the issue of philosophy by people by
3:04:19 muslims who believe philosophy is haram
3:04:22 so check that out uh ensure that be
3:04:24 taking place in the next couple of uh
3:04:27 they'll be released the next couple of
3:04:28 days it was really i loved the
3:04:30 discussion i love it when abdul rahman
3:04:32 gets you know thrilled anyway but i know
3:04:35 it's really good so please check that
3:04:36 out uh
3:04:39 assalamu alaikum warahmatullahi
3:04:50 ah
3:05:09 you