Full Channel 4 Interview Hindutva/Muslim Tensions (2022-10-06) ​

0:00:00 your brothers and sisters in the slum
0:00:02 net from Norway are establishing a
0:00:04 Masjid a dawa Center this Center this
0:00:08 Masjid this educational institution will
0:00:10 act like a beacon of light calling the
0:00:14 Muslims in Norway back to the essence of
0:00:16 Islam so give generously and Allah will
0:00:19 give you even
0:00:21 yeah so just start by telling me your
0:00:23 name and what you do just
0:00:25 okay so my name is Muhammad hijab I'm
0:00:27 the co-founder of the sapiens Institute
0:00:29 and so what we do is
0:00:32 um we have adult education courses where
0:00:34 we explore theophilosophical issues
0:00:37 particular and religious issues and so
0:00:42 um really my work has been around that
0:00:44 you've been described as a YouTube
0:00:46 influencer okay yeah
0:00:48 what do you who do you influence
0:00:51 I actually done a poll on on my
0:00:53 Community page some time I'm going to
0:00:54 see what kind of audience and to be
0:00:56 honest this majority of Muslim
0:00:57 population
0:00:58 um when I looked at my demographics I
0:01:00 saw that there was a significant number
0:01:02 of women
0:01:03 females that are actually listening to
0:01:06 me as well I would say the majority of
0:01:07 men maybe about 60 to 70 percent and the
0:01:12 age group would be about 18 to 35 years
0:01:14 old although other categories that are
0:01:17 closest to it are like close second
0:01:19 places so it's mainly um religious
0:01:22 YouTube videos that you do
0:01:25 I mean I think a lot yeah I would say a
0:01:28 lot of it is a lot of the output is
0:01:30 religious but a lot of it because my my
0:01:32 PhD is in the philosophy of religion is
0:01:34 philosophical so like I would deal with
0:01:36 issues to do with like the philosophy of
0:01:38 religion uh proving the existence of God
0:01:40 or political philosophy like exploring
0:01:43 feminism and liberalism these kind of
0:01:45 things I've published works on these all
0:01:47 these books on these issues about five
0:01:50 so far
0:01:52 and so um
0:01:54 yeah I think there's there's two aspects
0:01:56 of fundamentally fundamentally what I do
0:01:58 there's a publishing aspect and then
0:02:01 there is the kind of teaching aspect
0:02:04 um these are the two main things I mean
0:02:05 obviously I've been an activist for many
0:02:07 years as well you know so on issues to
0:02:10 do it's okay
0:02:15 So when you say the activism what kind
0:02:17 of issues so Palestinian rights okay
0:02:20 uyghur rights
0:02:22 um I think the far right act is like
0:02:25 against the far right okay and I would
0:02:28 even add to that other extremist
0:02:29 ideologies like even Islamic extremism
0:02:32 I've got a whole Channel dedicated to
0:02:36 Islamic extremism which my family knows
0:02:38 because I speak about all the time
0:02:39 called SP files which I deal with all
0:02:41 kinds of extremism on there and um
0:02:44 that's not even violent extremism but
0:02:46 things which I believe is a slippery
0:02:48 slope to violate the violent extremism
0:02:49 uh in addition obviously to Violent
0:02:51 extremism with an Islamic circles as
0:02:53 well so I think that my activism
0:02:56 actually stretches to that obviously
0:02:57 recently the in Indian minority Muslim
0:03:00 issue in India as well I think these are
0:03:02 the main issues that I've been dealing
0:03:03 with
0:03:04 okay so you you see your role as trying
0:03:07 to prevent young Muslim men getting
0:03:09 drawn into its reasons
0:03:11 a big part of my role is that yeah
0:03:14 um to be honest with you I would say a
0:03:15 big part of my Lord is apologetic in
0:03:17 nature meaning that
0:03:20 um I try and articulate the faith of
0:03:22 Islam the people who want to know about
0:03:23 it
0:03:24 um why because I feel like there's a
0:03:26 major disconnect between what the
0:03:28 religion of Islam actually says and what
0:03:30 people actually perceive it says
0:03:32 and people don't realize how pragmatic
0:03:34 the religion of Islam can be even from a
0:03:38 traditional standpoint so we find
0:03:40 competing narratives in the west of how
0:03:43 Islam for example should conform
0:03:45 with Western values this kind of
0:03:47 hegemonic
0:03:48 superimposition I would call it right
0:03:50 you should be like us be in our image I
0:03:53 find that almost a pseudo-colonial
0:03:55 narrative and I'm opposed to that kind
0:03:57 of narrative I feel like we have enough
0:03:59 within our own infrastructure to be able
0:04:01 to be as pragmatically Puritan if you
0:04:04 like as we want to be so that's one
0:04:07 thing and at the same time I would say
0:04:08 that
0:04:10 I will people don't even know the
0:04:12 fundamentals of Islam like the basics
0:04:14 and stuff like that I feel like there's
0:04:16 a major one of the big big parts of my
0:04:18 role is an educative function
0:04:21 so um just to teach people about the
0:04:24 basics of Islam we don't feel it's
0:04:25 incompatible with the West
0:04:27 well it depends on how you define Islam
0:04:30 and how you define the West right so if
0:04:31 we're defining Islam
0:04:33 as a set of propositions which says
0:04:36 there's only one God worthy of worship
0:04:38 and that uh you know we want communal
0:04:42 Harmony for example with people with all
0:04:44 face and stuff like that which is how I
0:04:45 would Define it and I would say living
0:04:48 in the west and being tolerant with
0:04:50 Western people that's absolutely fine
0:04:52 and it is compatible if what we mean by
0:04:54 the worst is in fact these set of
0:04:57 um hierarchically derived ideological
0:05:01 standpoints which Islam must be
0:05:03 subjected to for example social
0:05:04 liberalism or secular feminism then I
0:05:08 would say actually it's not compatible
0:05:09 with those things in entirety although
0:05:11 there's a there are areas of
0:05:14 intersection so it depends on how we're
0:05:16 defining the two Notions but if we do
0:05:18 Define them in the way that in the way
0:05:20 I've suggested in the first instance I
0:05:21 think is there is compatibility there of
0:05:23 course
0:05:24 so if we turn to Leicester now how did
0:05:26 you first hear about what was going on
0:05:28 in Leicester
0:05:29 I will actually privy to it through kind
0:05:32 of looking at Twitter because I'm on
0:05:34 Twitter sometimes and I saw very angered
0:05:36 to be honest with you to see this kind
0:05:38 of hindut fart ideology the far-right
0:05:40 ideology has been exported from the
0:05:42 subcontinent
0:05:43 and make its way into
0:05:45 my country England and to see people
0:05:50 being vulnerable people being attacked
0:05:53 um it was like for example the 22nd of
0:05:55 May there was a there was something I
0:05:56 saw with 30 people attacking one
0:05:58 individual and it was all on camera and
0:06:00 I was shocked uh by that and I was very
0:06:03 saddened by that so when I started
0:06:05 looking at these kinds of things I left
0:06:07 and thought the police would take care
0:06:09 of it unfortunately the police didn't
0:06:11 take care of anyone after weeks
0:06:13 why did you decide to go down that
0:06:15 particular weekend when there was the
0:06:17 disorder for two reasons fundamentally
0:06:20 one of them is to actually
0:06:21 kind of ease tensions and de-escalate
0:06:24 the situation I wanted to let people
0:06:26 know young people that I knew I had an
0:06:29 influence on not to break the law and
0:06:31 this is very clear on the public record
0:06:33 but I said this don't vandalize things
0:06:35 don't break the law but at the same time
0:06:37 to be honest with you I wanted people to
0:06:39 know that they could lawfully use
0:06:41 reasonable Force because why should the
0:06:45 Muslim Community or any other community
0:06:46 have to deal with this radical ideology
0:06:48 which has been exported from the
0:06:50 subcontinent which is a fascistic racist
0:06:52 ideology which talks of the which talks
0:06:55 of Hindu supremacism right why should we
0:06:57 have to deal with that and there not be
0:07:00 a response which is lawful and befitting
0:07:02 I think as a moral duty I think I felt a
0:07:05 sense of moral obligation that I thought
0:07:08 let my people know of this what they
0:07:11 could do reasonably I don't do this for
0:07:13 any Community not just the Muslim
0:07:15 Community honestly I would do this for
0:07:16 anybody that I saw was in trouble or
0:07:18 that Injustice was being done to them
0:07:20 well you're not from Leicester and you
0:07:22 went down and that could be seen as
0:07:25 quite provocative you know did you go
0:07:27 down there to cause trouble why didn't
0:07:28 you keep one away from me you could have
0:07:30 just done a YouTube broadcast you could
0:07:32 have said to your people via social
0:07:33 media these are your rights don't get
0:07:36 involved you know don't have any
0:07:37 violence why actually go to Leicester I
0:07:39 did all those things I mean on Twitter I
0:07:41 was engaging with with the issue in the
0:07:43 ways that you've just suggested but I
0:07:45 just feel like there is an ad added
0:07:48 benefit into actually Hands-On
0:07:50 interaction being in the thick of it and
0:07:52 to be honest with you although like a
0:07:53 lot I've been born ready in London as
0:07:55 you know uh not from Leicester but
0:07:57 having said that I don't distinguish
0:07:59 between people who are in less than
0:08:00 Birmingham on your ass in the United
0:08:01 Kingdom I think that if Injustice has
0:08:03 been done to any community in any part
0:08:05 of the United Kingdom or indeed any part
0:08:07 of the world that I can actually
0:08:08 influence but I should engage in trying
0:08:11 to uh stop that Injustice and so once
0:08:14 again this hindut ideology which was
0:08:16 very clearly is very clearly fascistic
0:08:18 in nature racist in nature requires
0:08:22 head-on confrontation in all legal ways
0:08:25 possible would you distinguish between
0:08:27 Hindustan and ordinary Hindus in
0:08:30 Leicester who were living their lives
0:08:31 and who were also appalled at the
0:08:33 violence absolutely and I think it's a
0:08:35 shame that there has been this
0:08:36 misrepresentation of the media where
0:08:39 such conflation has actually been put
0:08:41 forward and suggested because if you
0:08:44 look at this only one minute of the
0:08:46 second video
0:08:48 um that I actually clearly mentioned the
0:08:50 only thing I actually mentioned was
0:08:51 hindutva it was a message that didn't
0:08:54 find that don't ever do this again and
0:08:56 these kind of things and this particular
0:08:59 message had no mention of the word Hindu
0:09:02 at all in fact the titling of the video
0:09:04 had no mention the word Hindu at all so
0:09:06 the conflation has been made is not mine
0:09:09 it's actually a conflation unfortunately
0:09:11 which has been uh put forward by right
0:09:14 winged parts of the media and
0:09:16 individuals who have a meta narrative
0:09:17 that they wish to present which that
0:09:19 Muslim people are fundamentally or
0:09:22 inherently incapable of Tolerance and
0:09:25 that if Muslims engage in protest that
0:09:28 process is in fact an affront to Civil
0:09:32 Society or civil living a protest is
0:09:34 actually offensive
0:09:35 and so I think that this is something
0:09:37 which is intended to malign my my
0:09:40 character on the Muslim Community child
0:09:41 life
0:09:42 I need your code
0:09:45 would you do you want to do that
0:09:47 question because there was someone I
0:09:50 think it was all right but you can't do
0:09:51 it yeah that's right 26 26. actually
0:09:54 well with pause I'm going to change the
0:09:55 angle slightly so I might try and do it
0:09:57 this one is too short for sure thank you
0:10:00 my friend
0:10:09 okay Josh okay but do you distinguish
0:10:12 between hindutva and ordinary Hindus who
0:10:15 live in Leicester and were appalled at
0:10:17 the violence absolutely do and I think
0:10:19 that this intentional conflation between
0:10:21 the two is something which unfortunately
0:10:24 has been done to malign me as an
0:10:28 individual and my community at Large
0:10:30 clearly in for example all my
0:10:32 Publications one I speak in the terms I
0:10:35 do about the fascistic ideology that is
0:10:39 hindutva
0:10:41 which is uh you know it's in the network
0:10:43 of kind of Indian nationalistic
0:10:45 ideologies like the RSS as you know and
0:10:48 so on
0:10:50 it's clear that I'm talking about a
0:10:51 political ideology I'm not talking about
0:10:53 a religion or a group of people
0:10:56 um and I think that such confliction
0:10:58 that has been made is appalling and
0:11:00 unfortunately has framed me in a very uh
0:11:03 favorable one favorable way but you were
0:11:06 seeing you were caught on camera you
0:11:08 were talking about Reincarnation of
0:11:09 people coming back as cockroaches you
0:11:12 must have known that that would be
0:11:13 offensive to Hindus well to be honest I
0:11:16 wasn't actually mocking reincarnation in
0:11:18 that situation I was saying that if I
0:11:20 believed in reincarnation well it
0:11:22 sounded like you were it could have and
0:11:24 if so you know to the Hindu community at
0:11:26 large I have to offer my apologies to
0:11:28 the inter Community if it sounded like I
0:11:30 was lucky but I will say to you uh
0:11:32 clearly that in fact I did preface my
0:11:36 sentence with a conditioner if I
0:11:38 believed in reincarnation which I don't
0:11:41 think is logically absurd from a
0:11:42 theological perspective actually I think
0:11:44 if God wanted to know the real powerful
0:11:45 God if you wanted to reincarnate me into
0:11:48 a grasshopper or whatever they say
0:11:50 cockroach but whatever it is I don't
0:11:52 think that's logically impossible I
0:11:53 think that's possible uh I'm in heaven
0:11:55 hell I mean this eschatological Notions
0:11:57 I don't think
0:11:59 um of neither here nor there for me it
0:12:01 is the case although
0:12:03 uh not all Hindus are hindusta most in
0:12:07 the are Hindus so I was offering them
0:12:10 something which they can relate with
0:12:11 which relates to the eschatological
0:12:13 Notions and from that perspective I was
0:12:16 being hyperbolic in my speech wasn't an
0:12:18 attempt to mock Hinduism as a religion
0:12:21 and using that kind of inflammatory
0:12:25 you know those inflammatory worms and
0:12:27 stuff can you see how you were
0:12:29 you could be seen as inflaming the
0:12:31 situation rather than calming it to be
0:12:33 honest with you once again I feel like
0:12:35 this situation required confrontation
0:12:37 I'll be honest with you because
0:12:39 in all legal ways possible we're talking
0:12:41 about a new form of extremism here which
0:12:43 is new in Britain uh relatively new we
0:12:46 haven't seen this kind of tensions
0:12:47 before in the decades are part of unless
0:12:49 it is I haven't seen this kind of thing
0:12:50 yourself have you so what I'm saying is
0:12:51 that the reason why it requires
0:12:53 confrontation is because just like as
0:12:55 Muslims we are required to confront
0:12:57 extremist elements within our own
0:12:58 Community I think it's fair that Hindus
0:13:01 who have extreme servers within their
0:13:03 own communities like the Hindustan for
0:13:05 example and fascistic elements for
0:13:07 example the second Chief of the RSS
0:13:09 actually produced The Holocaust and
0:13:10 we're talking about something which is
0:13:12 and and recommended a holocaust against
0:13:13 Sikhs and Muslims this is we're talking
0:13:15 about a gold Walker we're talking about
0:13:18 a seriously extremist ideology here that
0:13:21 thing needs confronting and I feel like
0:13:23 me as a citizen exercising my freedom of
0:13:26 expression and speech confronting this
0:13:28 ideology in ways which are not legal
0:13:30 they're illegal is something which I'm
0:13:32 afforded and we should continue to do
0:13:35 but do you accept that the way you went
0:13:37 about it you know coming down preaching
0:13:40 on the street you know people listening
0:13:42 to you yeah of course they would have
0:13:43 listened to you they would have looked
0:13:45 up to you you should have gone about it
0:13:47 in a different way and try to calm
0:13:49 tensions
0:13:50 perhaps I mean once again I'm not saying
0:13:52 everything I do is I'm I'm an angel
0:13:54 walking on Earth and we all learn from
0:13:57 our experiences I mean I think this why
0:13:59 would you go down again if it happened
0:14:00 again I would go down again but in a way
0:14:03 that would be maybe less provocative I
0:14:05 have learned from the lessons of before
0:14:06 uh I would say things which are more
0:14:09 categorical such that I can't be quote
0:14:10 mined in the way that I was crop mined I
0:14:13 could not be maligned and lied about by
0:14:15 the ministry media in the way that I was
0:14:17 and I do think there's an issue here
0:14:19 having said that and taking
0:14:20 accountability for taking stock of my
0:14:22 own action I think it's fair for us to
0:14:24 say also that there is a different
0:14:26 reaction from the Press when a Muslim
0:14:29 decides to show or Express themselves in
0:14:32 political ways than there is from other
0:14:34 people and that is I think something
0:14:37 worthy of Investigation so you think
0:14:39 you've been branded an extremist
0:14:42 um
0:14:43 rather than somebody who preaches a a
0:14:46 conservative
0:14:48 ideology or conservative view of his
0:14:50 religion I don't know if any UK paper
0:14:53 has called me to be completely honest
0:14:54 and extremist they haven't gone that far
0:14:56 yet but it's on the public records
0:14:59 whether we're talking about Hindus or
0:15:01 Jews or Christians or any other people
0:15:03 community that I've only preached
0:15:06 coexistence the fact that a Muslim
0:15:09 person can be branded as an Insider of
0:15:12 hate or instigator-in-chief they called
0:15:14 me in fact I own this uh I'm starting up
0:15:17 a new brand now called instigator in
0:15:20 Chief t-shirts I'm going to sell them
0:15:21 get some money from the situation to
0:15:23 compensate me for the troubles I found
0:15:25 but what I'm saying is you know having
0:15:28 said this you know what I'm saying to
0:15:30 you is I've realized how poorly
0:15:33 represented Muslims are in the Press
0:15:36 and I feel genuinely yes that this is to
0:15:39 to withhold or to uphold I should say a
0:15:43 meta Narrative of the impossible subject
0:15:46 which is the Muslim person that requires
0:15:49 to be kicked out of the land or
0:15:51 something like that and so what do I
0:15:53 expect except for this I mean we haven't
0:15:54 seen much better than this I mean the
0:15:58 impossible Muslim subject who is uh you
0:16:01 know
0:16:01 intolerant and capable of anything else
0:16:03 but I've said the opposite I'm saying it
0:16:05 today on camera these are explicit words
0:16:07 I say that we want nothing but peace and
0:16:09 coexistence and harmony with all
0:16:11 communities will you accept that your
0:16:13 actions that day
0:16:15 you won't conducive to peace you were
0:16:17 you know Riley people up well I know
0:16:20 what you're saying to me but what I'm
0:16:21 saying is every action has an equal and
0:16:23 opposite reaction sometimes it's not
0:16:25 equal sometimes it's not opposite but I
0:16:27 didn't start anything in Leicester what
0:16:29 happened was on the 22nd of May 30
0:16:32 people uh rushed they beat up one person
0:16:36 and this was on social media and then we
0:16:38 saw more and more of these kinds of
0:16:40 events taking place and this was because
0:16:42 they were inspired by hindut for
0:16:44 ideology this ideology is a fascistic
0:16:48 racist supremacist ideology and what I'm
0:16:51 saying is that we like I'm saying to you
0:16:53 yes you're saying do you accept this and
0:16:55 that and whatever and I'm saying yes
0:16:56 except you can see we're comfortable of
0:16:57 course I need you guys to accept as well
0:17:00 that this ideology needs to be
0:17:02 confronted and we can't just and I
0:17:05 commend channel four I commend you in
0:17:07 fact for your reports that you brought
0:17:09 out where you're one of the only people
0:17:11 in mainstream media who even mentioned
0:17:13 the RSS who even mentioned hindutva I
0:17:16 want to see more of this kind of thing
0:17:17 because if young Muslim men
0:17:19 uh they feel alienated to the point
0:17:22 where they can't even be heard or that
0:17:25 their side of the story is not even told
0:17:27 I think that is a pathway to extremism
0:17:29 unfortunately which we need to make sure
0:17:31 uh is not facilitated there is an
0:17:34 argument some people locally feel that
0:17:36 this was a local issue local tensions
0:17:38 they could have dealt with it that's
0:17:40 what they're trying to do but people
0:17:41 like you coming from the outside just
0:17:43 made it all blow up 100 times worse
0:17:46 there is an argument for that but
0:17:47 there's there's no such principle
0:17:49 play I mean we're talking about uh we're
0:17:52 in London so people from Birmingham
0:17:54 shouldn't come and interfere in our
0:17:55 situation I don't know what from whence
0:17:57 such principle was was extrapolated and
0:18:01 to be honest if such principle can be
0:18:02 shown to be robust from the
0:18:04 philosophical perspective I may think
0:18:06 about it but this idea that people from
0:18:08 London shouldn't interfere in the action
0:18:10 of behaviors or the situations of people
0:18:12 in the lesson I think this is almost
0:18:14 like a village type we're living in a
0:18:16 village type mentality we're living in a
0:18:17 globalized world if I want to comment on
0:18:19 things happening in Africa there'll be a
0:18:21 lot of local nuances be aware of you
0:18:24 know you wouldn't necessarily know where
0:18:25 the Hindu areas are or the Muslim areas
0:18:27 or the interaction between the two fair
0:18:29 enough uh I accept all of that that's
0:18:31 why I have people that will guide me
0:18:32 into these areas where I can get a Sat
0:18:34 Nav I mean this is something which can
0:18:35 be mitigated I think what I'm saying is
0:18:38 that the reason why I went there is
0:18:41 because of my social media influence you
0:18:43 see I have social media influence I
0:18:45 don't think anyone less as a Muslim or
0:18:47 an activist Muslim has so I was and I
0:18:50 was able to actually bring forward a
0:18:52 narrative that very few in the media was
0:18:54 able to bring hundreds of thousands
0:18:57 almost millions of people watch that
0:18:58 narrative because of me so the way to
0:19:01 eliminate people like me from going to
0:19:03 Leicester is if the police can do their
0:19:05 job and the media can do their job if
0:19:07 both of those organs do their job
0:19:09 properly then people like me won't need
0:19:10 to travel at all and what happened to
0:19:13 you locally there's a there's one video
0:19:15 where a local Muslim boy is saying to
0:19:17 you you know you're just inflaming the
0:19:18 situation going home yeah
0:19:20 there were local Muslims opposed to you
0:19:22 being there I don't know if they were
0:19:24 opposed what it was is that I was
0:19:26 speaking for some time maybe 10 minutes
0:19:28 and I shouldn't have spoken to these
0:19:30 angry people for 10 minutes because I'm
0:19:31 a lecturistic so I speak for a long time
0:19:33 so it's like we've had enough we've had
0:19:36 you know we've had enough of this we
0:19:37 want to get involved with some protest
0:19:38 actually did you make the language I
0:19:40 don't know
0:19:41 they made me angry I mean once again
0:19:44 this is always reciprocal we're talking
0:19:46 about some young Lads in Leicester I
0:19:49 would say they're not really newsworthy
0:19:51 from the adverbs unremarkable situation
0:19:53 uh what I would say is that the
0:19:56 overwhelming majority opinion was that
0:19:58 people actually wanted me to be there
0:20:00 they showed me a lot of support as you
0:20:02 can see from the videos I mean people
0:20:03 are all around me thousands of them and
0:20:05 walking behind me and so in fact I was
0:20:07 made famous because people were walking
0:20:09 behind me in the in the thousands so if
0:20:12 we're talking about this or you've got
0:20:13 the Heckler here and there's a stubborn
0:20:14 there and so on and so forth I mean who
0:20:16 doesn't have such people in crowds if
0:20:19 they're if they're if they're speaking
0:20:20 depressed have the police contacted you
0:20:22 since Leicester no
0:20:24 so they haven't because you've been
0:20:26 accused of inflaming the situation and
0:20:28 that's the point if I did anything
0:20:29 criminal then the police are doing a
0:20:32 very poor job in uh being able to
0:20:35 prosecute me I've done nothing criminal
0:20:37 this is the point in fact I believe the
0:20:38 criminality has been done against me in
0:20:41 in the form of defamation of character
0:20:42 that many of these uh news outlets have
0:20:45 actually been a party to and so on I I
0:20:48 think that when they take a clip of me
0:20:51 talking about the hindutaba and they say
0:20:53 he said Hindus should so they've
0:20:56 literally substituted one word with
0:20:58 another
0:20:59 or they mentioned that I uh I'm
0:21:02 anti-jewish or something like that well
0:21:04 the telegram actually actually mentioned
0:21:05 this or that I was leading anti-jewish
0:21:07 protesters stuff like this I think this
0:21:09 is nonsense and you will never find
0:21:11 anything I will challenge everybody all
0:21:13 the media Outlets that come together and
0:21:15 do an extreme brainstorm take all 600
0:21:17 videos of mine on my channel Hammer
0:21:19 hijab on YouTube and to try and find
0:21:21 such words coming out of my mouth
0:21:24 is a sign of defeat when you have to lie
0:21:28 about the person you're reporting about
0:21:30 I feel like they've sabotaged their own
0:21:32 effort
0:21:33 they have dug up a video where you're in
0:21:36 gold as green and they said you're being
0:21:37 quite provocative yes and it was a much
0:21:41 about Palestine but then somebody they
0:21:43 think you was heard saying you know I'm
0:21:46 going to get the Jews and not Zionist
0:21:48 you actually use a lot of jeans no that
0:21:50 wasn't me that wasn't you that wasn't me
0:21:52 I don't think any reporter actually ever
0:21:55 said that was me they said somebody in a
0:21:57 mask said that so I don't think any um
0:22:00 British or even to be honestly Indian
0:22:02 ones actually no one said that that was
0:22:04 me but what'd you say about them saying
0:22:07 generally you know going to golders
0:22:08 Green with a megaphone
0:22:10 protesting like that is provocative the
0:22:12 same way it was provocative going to
0:22:13 Leicester well I mean the thing is we
0:22:15 have friends in golders green who
0:22:17 actually sympathize with our course who
0:22:19 vicariously simplifies with our cause
0:22:21 and these friends are Jewish friends and
0:22:23 we have videos of them holding hands
0:22:25 with us
0:22:25 hundreds of thousands of people have
0:22:27 seen these videos we're holding hands of
0:22:29 us saying we support Palestinian rights
0:22:31 I I fail to see how this kind of thing
0:22:33 can be anti-jewish when Jews are leading
0:22:36 it effectively so I think this binary
0:22:39 notion that Jews and zionists are the
0:22:41 same thing and that you cannot be Jewish
0:22:43 and anti-zionist or aunties I think this
0:22:46 is outdated now I think this is the
0:22:47 cliche that we need to throw that was
0:22:49 going to be in the trash heap of History
0:22:52 um to be honest with you once again it's
0:22:53 a tactic that is attempted by
0:22:56 individuals to try and stop and
0:22:58 anti-zionist or anti-israel kinds of
0:23:01 campaigns and even Jeremy corbyn people
0:23:04 left wing have been accused of
0:23:05 accidentism what do you think they're
0:23:06 going to do with someone like me who I'm
0:23:08 a semi by the way I mean I'm an Arab and
0:23:10 Arabic is one of the Semitic languages
0:23:22 because they don't allow me to uh to
0:23:25 manifest my pro-palestinian rights
0:23:26 without calling me antimatter so that's
0:23:27 the kind of anti-Semitism in my
0:23:29 understanding let me let me let me own
0:23:31 the phrase I will remember I mean I
0:23:32 don't care what they are to be honest
0:23:33 with you I'll be honest with you I don't
0:23:35 care what they have to say I mean what
0:23:36 they have to say is like meaningless to
0:23:39 the nth degree to someone like me so
0:23:42 quite frankly if if this is an attempt
0:23:45 to try and deter me from doing activism
0:23:47 which is pro-palestine and so on I think
0:23:49 it's a musically attempt in fact I
0:23:51 relish sometimes I enjoy even seeing
0:23:54 these kind of things because it shows
0:23:55 defeat it shows that this is desperation
0:23:57 that they have reached the the epitome
0:23:59 of desperation that they now have to
0:24:01 malign me through Distortion and
0:24:03 manipulation So when you say you enjoy
0:24:05 seeing it and stuff I mean the videos
0:24:07 are really popular they all went viral
0:24:09 is that part of the appeal of going down
0:24:11 to places like Leicester giving you
0:24:13 speeches because you know you would get
0:24:14 the clicks from it I don't know about
0:24:16 all that but I mean at the end of the
0:24:18 day I can ask channel for the same thing
0:24:19 I'm not I'm if you compare how much I'm
0:24:22 getting from these kinds of videos
0:24:24 compared to like but not about the money
0:24:25 about the influence you know you get
0:24:27 loads of followers through it yeah
0:24:29 that's something I have to struggle with
0:24:30 Within Myself to see what what are my
0:24:32 true intentions because as a Muslim
0:24:33 spiritually I should be effectively
0:24:36 doing everything for the sake of God
0:24:37 that is the epitome of spirituality from
0:24:40 the Muslim parallel the extent to which
0:24:42 I'm upholding that standard is something
0:24:45 which I don't know myself I haven't been
0:24:47 honest with you to what extent am I
0:24:49 upholding the spiritual standard that
0:24:50 I'm doing everything completely sincere
0:24:52 I have to manage my own inauthenticity
0:24:54 just like I think everyone else does so
0:24:56 the except I don't know what my
0:24:57 intentions are I'll add me to speak to
0:24:59 the psychiatrist for that or a psycho
0:25:01 psychotherapist
0:25:02 maybe the unconscious mind and the ego
0:25:04 and the superego are battling each other
0:25:06 but you know I can't I can't say much
0:25:08 about that apart from that but perhaps
0:25:10 you're right well perhaps you're right
0:25:12 you know
0:25:15 um
0:25:21 oh yeah so we've got Diwali coming up in
0:25:24 Leicester the Festival of narratri has
0:25:26 started if trouble does kick off again
0:25:27 would you go down well they're gonna
0:25:29 invite me or I'm going to be invited to
0:25:31 the temple down there
0:25:33 well I mean look I mean to be honest
0:25:36 with you
0:25:37 um
0:25:38 once again
0:25:39 uh I'll have to speak to the leaders of
0:25:41 Leicester the Muslim leaders and to uh
0:25:44 the police the Leicester ship release
0:25:46 and to see if my presence will be
0:25:48 conducive I might even speak to you I
0:25:51 might give you a call and say what do
0:25:52 you what do you think what do you think
0:25:54 what is channel four thing do you think
0:25:55 it'll be welcome or not welcome and
0:25:57 after I've made after I've spoken to
0:25:59 people people say not welcome well then
0:26:01 in that case I have to really think
0:26:02 deeply about it I will have to respect
0:26:05 the wishes of good people like you and
0:26:07 good people in Leicester
0:26:09 foreign
0:26:13 I'll tell you something right I'm the
0:26:15 kind of individual that doesn't want to
0:26:17 be tolerated I want to be celebrated so
0:26:19 if I'm going to go somewhere the people
0:26:20 that will get get the teeth and drinks
0:26:22 ready for me because I'm not going there
0:26:24 to the state park I'm not gonna say I'm
0:26:26 gonna I'm going there to take over
0:26:27 that's then then that'll be the click
0:26:29 but what I'm saying what I'm saying is
0:26:31 that yeah yeah I wouldn't do anything
0:26:34 against the wishes of the people in this
0:26:36 stuff on a serious note I wouldn't do
0:26:37 that and you wouldn't do it in the way
0:26:39 you did because you accept that it was
0:26:40 inflammatory going down speaking to a
0:26:43 beautiful voice it's gotten you to come
0:26:45 to speak to me from Channel 4 come to my
0:26:47 office to the micro influencers Muhammad
0:26:51 panjab so in many ways it's done this
0:26:52 purpose so I have to really think about
0:26:54 the pros and the cons
0:26:56 I mean potentially you're right I'll
0:26:59 give you that maybe what I did needs
0:27:01 refinement
0:27:03 and that's that is a life for human
0:27:04 being they look at what they've done and
0:27:06 they say okay this is something that I
0:27:08 won't do next time I mean what kind of
0:27:09 unaccountable person would I be if I
0:27:12 didn't learn anything from this
0:27:13 situation
0:27:17 um and just I was just gonna
0:27:19 know about
0:27:20 would you do it again
0:27:23 it depends on that I said I'll ask no
0:27:25 you said he'd ask people and see if it
0:27:27 was right now on the information you've
0:27:29 got right now but I'll do it right now
0:27:30 probably not to be honest we're probably
0:27:33 not yeah
0:27:35 probably not and unless people say
0:27:37 please bring the people from London and
0:27:40 do a protest because we need to fill up
0:27:42 Leicester and we need to make it uh you
0:27:45 know we need to do a great um you know
0:27:46 approaches so we know you have the
0:27:48 capabilities in which case I'll say
0:27:49 listen
0:27:50 you always should not come on you know
0:27:52 we have we have a probe of an Arabic
0:27:53 language
0:27:54 uh the the pro the proverb goes as
0:27:56 follows this is that
0:27:58 which is that the leader of a tribe is
0:28:01 their servant
0:28:02 so I would only do that which is in the
0:28:04 service of my people but if people in
0:28:06 Leicester said I mean a lot of people in
0:28:08 this receptionally they don't want
0:28:09 Outsiders coming down so if you heard
0:28:11 that yeah yeah I'll be deterred of
0:28:13 course
0:28:14 and in terms of um we were talking about
0:28:17 young Muslim men and you were talking
0:28:19 about you know this path to extremism
0:28:20 and stuff yeah it seems to me it's
0:28:23 somebody who grew up in Leicester we
0:28:24 used to call ourselves Asian you know
0:28:26 Asian would mean now there's a lot of
0:28:29 identity politics what's going on with
0:28:30 young Muslim men what's happening with
0:28:33 the Hindustan that's the question
0:28:34 because Islamic extremism has been
0:28:36 around for a very long time
0:28:37 I mean it's been around let's be honest
0:28:39 for 20 30 years in this country at least
0:28:41 okay and uh what the recent change has
0:28:45 actually not been from that side it's
0:28:47 been from the Hindustan side I think
0:28:48 that
0:28:49 the this radical ideology which once
0:28:52 again imagine one of the leaders of the
0:28:53 RSS the second Chief has is praising the
0:28:57 Holocaust and saying we need a new one
0:28:58 this kind of ideology which they're
0:29:00 teaching in madrasa's type situations
0:29:03 Hindu madrases in this case you know is
0:29:05 is finding its way in Leicester and we
0:29:07 have to that's what I'm saying we have
0:29:09 to be open just like me as a Muslim I'm
0:29:10 telling you I'm saying we have to be
0:29:13 open about our own uh kind of problems
0:29:16 that we have this I think is a serious
0:29:18 problem and that's what's causing issues
0:29:19 why is it now when Modi has just become
0:29:22 a prime minister in 2014 or whatever it
0:29:24 was or the BJP party which is actually
0:29:27 taking on this ideology why is it now
0:29:29 because that is the major change so you
0:29:32 can't make a cause causative argument
0:29:34 from that perspective but do you feel
0:29:35 there are more identity politics now
0:29:38 with people defining themselves by their
0:29:40 religion
0:29:41 uh what are you talking about in the
0:29:43 last 10 years 15 years yeah possibly I I
0:29:46 don't know I haven't done a sociological
0:29:47 study on the matter I would have to that
0:29:50 is an issue of sociological academics um
0:29:53 you know investigation
0:29:55 okay
0:29:57 um I think that was it actually if he
0:30:00 knows anything is it I think so I just
0:30:02 thought it was interesting that
0:30:05 you came from here I went up to
0:30:06 Leicester yeah and allegedly
0:30:08 some Hindus came from Wembley or went to
0:30:11 Leicester okay why doesn't what happen
0:30:13 unless it just happened around the
0:30:14 corner what do you mean uh why did why
0:30:18 didn't happen
0:30:19 if I okay I don't think so tell Donald
0:30:22 Trump
0:30:22 I don't think it would happen to London
0:30:24 because there's at least 1.3 million
0:30:26 Muslims in London
0:30:28 and lesser is more equally proportioned
0:30:31 in terms of the religious demographic so
0:30:33 Hindus are I don't know what the
0:30:35 percentage of argument Muslims but it's
0:30:36 more balanced whereas Birmingham
0:30:38 according to Census Data although the
0:30:40 last census of 2021 has not the data is
0:30:43 not published so when published in May
0:30:45 of 2023 I believe but um it shows that
0:30:49 Birmingham and Bradford in London are
0:30:51 the most densely populated muslimarius
0:30:54 so it's a matter of numbers and this is
0:30:55 why I called them cowards because they
0:30:57 do it in areas where they know that the
0:31:00 numbers that they're going to have more
0:31:02 numbers
0:31:02 this is a cowardly I believe it's a
0:31:04 cowardly approach moreover I don't think
0:31:06 in London this would be um you know most
0:31:09 Hindus and Muslims have a very close
0:31:12 relationship like in Wembley in these
0:31:14 kinds of areas they go to the same
0:31:16 schools they eat the same food you know
0:31:18 maybe not the meat but they're doing
0:31:19 Leicester too
0:31:21 yes but but I think it's once again it's
0:31:24 um
0:31:25 and Leicester this is I might be wrong
0:31:27 here but it's a little bit more
0:31:28 ghettoized
0:31:29 like there's more this is the Hindu area
0:31:31 this is the Muslim area but Wembley's
0:31:34 got both Muslims and Hindus there's
0:31:36 schools which both Muslims and Hindus go
0:31:38 to so I think this intermixing okay this
0:31:41 intermixing of different people from
0:31:42 different cultures we've seen this from
0:31:43 Pew research for example the countries
0:31:46 with the least amount of into mixing or
0:31:48 the most racist countries
0:31:50 so one of the best ways to eradicate
0:31:52 racism and racial Supremacy and these
0:31:54 kind of things is just pulled together
0:31:55 like we are in this room together
0:31:56 different colors different you know
0:31:58 Creeds and so on but we can drink
0:31:59 together and you can laugh we can have a
0:32:02 good time and this is this is how to
0:32:04 like on a practical level to eliminate
0:32:06 the hostilities
0:32:08 I wonder you talked about the fact
0:32:09 the Muslim Community
0:32:12 I mean you're saying
0:32:14 yes it does why not
0:32:16 if you feel that's what's going on why
0:32:18 not teach them how to do it rather than
0:32:20 going and being confrontational and
0:32:22 writing people up and I don't know I
0:32:24 don't think that I've never thought of
0:32:26 that as an approach now that you could
0:32:27 afford I'd have to study it
0:32:28 [Laughter]
0:32:30 but then we have the question okay we'll
0:32:33 bring the Hindu leaders to me and I'll
0:32:35 teach them all they want to know but
0:32:36 unfortunately some of these hinduisms
0:32:38 from these temples and so on are
0:32:40 complicit in bringing these Hindu for
0:32:41 people go over like that African name
0:32:43 now Randy or whatever her name is she
0:32:45 came abroad and she's she's an
0:32:47 individual with an ideological baggage
0:32:49 and I actually believe and I haven't got
0:32:52 studies to prove this because I don't
0:32:53 think any study has been done that the
0:32:56 him goods ideology as a proportion
0:32:59 uh of Hindus there is more support of it
0:33:03 than for example Islamic truism the lack
0:33:05 of which you see in Syria and Iraq so I
0:33:07 think it's a bigger problem from a
0:33:09 demographic perspective
0:33:10 um I haven't got the evidence to show
0:33:12 that but
0:33:13 um in that case it would be more
0:33:14 socially stigmatic for someone to come
0:33:17 out from a Hindu community and speak
0:33:18 against RSS or speak about because
0:33:20 you've got Modi I mean you won't be able
0:33:21 to go to India if you speak about these
0:33:22 kind of things and we go to India
0:33:24 probably be caught in the the airport
0:33:25 and they don't detain your send you back
0:33:28 we're talking about a an ideology that
0:33:31 has been an ideology that has been
0:33:33 accepted now by the the leaders of India
0:33:36 compared to a fringe ideology that's all
0:33:39 the leaders of the Islamic world and all
0:33:40 the scholars and all the centers of
0:33:41 powers have rejected these are these are
0:33:43 the complications
0:33:45 and you said that you know you'd think
0:33:46 twice about going back to lesson now the
0:33:48 police haven't spoke to you you've told
0:33:50 me to think twice about it
0:33:55 um you accept my vote when you're on
0:33:58 camera saying we have to defend
0:34:00 ourselves you know we're gonna
0:34:03 I don't remember your exact words but
0:34:05 you say you're saying you have a right
0:34:06 to defend yourself
0:34:09 yeah that was provocative you shouldn't
0:34:11 have been saying that why
0:34:13 because you're saying to me but it's
0:34:15 okay to be violent back no I mean I
0:34:18 think well violent back is the key Point
0:34:19 here I mean what pacifists if someone
0:34:22 slaps us I mean if someone came into
0:34:24 this room right now and they tried to
0:34:26 attack you I would get involved in the
0:34:28 matter but if it's a volatile situation
0:34:30 you've got lots of young men all hit up
0:34:33 on the streets you know I think it's
0:34:35 some vulnerable people are being hurt
0:34:36 like on the 22nd of May what I have
0:34:39 first of all there was a 30 on one
0:34:41 attack yeah and then after that the
0:34:42 mother and the father of that person
0:34:44 were also attacked these are vulnerable
0:34:45 people when I heard things like this it
0:34:47 really made me upset to be honest with
0:34:49 you because I feel like we do have a
0:34:50 duty of care to protect ourselves
0:34:51 citizenry like like I say it for me this
0:34:54 idea of a diffusion of responsibility
0:34:57 because the police what we did let the
0:35:00 police do with it but the police were
0:35:01 incapable of doing that I'm not sure if
0:35:03 you've seen the statistics in this
0:35:05 country relating to how many stabbings
0:35:07 happening on a yearly basis sometimes of
0:35:10 forty nine thousand fifty thousand these
0:35:12 kind of things do you really think is in
0:35:14 this country in Leicester I mean
0:35:14 Metropolitan Police music do you think
0:35:16 that they have a grip on this situation
0:35:18 well then if you write down your way it
0:35:20 would be vigilante as a moment it
0:35:21 wouldn't be because we're saying
0:35:22 reasonable legal reasonable Force but
0:35:25 why I'm against is in Psychology
0:35:28 referred to as a diffusion of
0:35:29 responsibility I'm against a woman being
0:35:31 sexually assaulted in the street and
0:35:32 everyone just filming with their phone
0:35:34 I'm against this individualistic and
0:35:36 notion egoistic notion that it's all
0:35:38 about me and I'm not going to get
0:35:40 involved I'm for a notion of Bravery
0:35:43 because my religion teaches me this
0:35:44 which you put your own self your own
0:35:46 life at risk to defend the lives of
0:35:48 others and I think if we didn't have
0:35:50 that mentality the freedoms that we're
0:35:52 all enjoying now wouldn't even exist but
0:35:54 if you saw you know some young Muslim
0:35:56 guys they must have said to you you know
0:35:57 we're going to go and rip a flank off a
0:35:59 temple okay yeah that kind of stuff that
0:36:02 kind of stuff is impermissible from the
0:36:03 Islamic perspective and I I very
0:36:06 categorically it's on the record told
0:36:08 them do not do this kind of thing the
0:36:10 only thing which is allowed legally is
0:36:12 reasonable force and I think it's
0:36:13 important for people to know that in our
0:36:16 community one thing that is plaguing not
0:36:18 just Leicester or London or anywhere
0:36:20 else but the entire UK's Community the
0:36:23 West is this culture of the diffusion of
0:36:26 responsibility just let someone else do
0:36:28 what they call the pity by the time you
0:36:29 call the police the person would be dead
0:36:30 that's what people need to understand
0:36:32 the police are not a Magic Bullet the
0:36:35 police are there in some situations and
0:36:39 sometimes they're not there sometimes
0:36:40 they'll do a tactical Retreat themselves
0:36:42 and if that wasn't the case then why
0:36:43 would you have a pandemic of stabbings
0:36:45 in this country
0:36:46 they they they're not holding sorry to
0:36:48 say but I don't think that the police
0:36:49 have the authority to deal with certain
0:36:51 things like the amount of stabbing that
0:36:54 we're dealing with so if it reaches that
0:36:56 level then the citizenry must know that
0:36:58 there's something called reasonable
0:36:59 Force which you you can use would you
0:37:02 condemn people pulling Flags off indexes
0:37:05 absolutely yes
0:37:07 oh that is the most condemnable thing I
0:37:10 can think of I mean this verse of the
0:37:12 Quran that you know actually negate this
0:37:14 kind of thing as Muslims right if we're
0:37:16 talking about from Islam Paradigm right
0:37:18 we don't believe in garnish or all of
0:37:20 these kind of gods and like you know
0:37:22 polytheistic fictitious we believe
0:37:24 they're mythological right we don't
0:37:25 believe in any of that we believe in one
0:37:27 God worthy of worship we believe that's
0:37:28 one God that's the creator of the
0:37:30 universe and that is responsible for the
0:37:31 cosmological beginnings of the human
0:37:33 being however the Quran explicitly says
0:37:39 do not mock or attack or insult the gods
0:37:44 of other uh you know people other gods
0:37:46 and so on so that they may respond in
0:37:48 kind in other words it's a it's a cycle
0:37:51 of Vengeance and a cycle of violence and
0:37:53 a cycle of viciousness
0:37:56 um which well to be honest with you full
0:37:58 intents and purposes I cannot
0:37:59 vicariously sympathize sympathize with
0:38:01 so it was wrong to tear down that oh yes
0:38:03 it was one of the most wrong things that
0:38:05 Muslims have done in that whole and
0:38:07 there was other things that they did
0:38:08 earlier absolutely yes very wrong and I
0:38:12 mean you're quite in the Quran and
0:38:13 saying you know but you yourself were
0:38:15 mocking people's belief in reincarnation
0:38:17 on the day I said that let me just
0:38:20 repeat what I said just to remind you I
0:38:22 said that if I believed in it I would
0:38:24 not want to be reincarnated as a as a
0:38:28 weak and pathetic and cowardly person
0:38:30 now who was I speaking to hindranceva
0:38:32 now I'm not saying the idea of
0:38:34 reincarnation is XYZ fill in the blanks
0:38:37 use mocking terms I'm saying if
0:38:39 conditional if I believed in it which I
0:38:41 don't think is geologically impossible
0:38:43 for an all-powerful God to reincarnate
0:38:45 human beings I don't believe in that
0:38:47 eschatologically I think it's logically
0:38:49 possible but you knew that wasn't the
0:38:50 place to have that kind of debate on the
0:38:52 streets that night whenever he was riled
0:38:54 up yeah okay I I see you're saying this
0:38:57 of course if you're saying this I have
0:38:59 to accept it yeah as a Hindu right look
0:39:02 I have to be accountable be respectful
0:39:05 and if people of the Hindu Community
0:39:07 like yourself or anyone else is telling
0:39:09 me that this was distasteful we didn't
0:39:10 like it that's all that you need to hear
0:39:12 from
0:39:14 you I won't do it again why as a gesture
0:39:16 of respect and a gesture of community
0:39:18 cohesion or gesture of Tolerance there's
0:39:20 no need for I mean this is not it's not
0:39:23 um it's not a mountain I want to die on
0:39:25 like if you felt like it was distasteful
0:39:28 and it was triggering and so on there's
0:39:30 no need for it then I won't do that
0:39:32 again
0:39:36 that sounds great