The Jesus Debate - Adnan Rashid vs James White (2019-05-05) ​

0:00:00 these worked out okay so welcome and I
0:00:06 do want to extend a warm welcome to all
0:00:10 of you who are here this evening for
0:00:13 this special and important debate on
0:00:17 brexit we're all here to talk about
0:00:23 something of far greater significance my
0:00:27 name is Ashley Charles and I'm a member
0:00:29 of this church the silvus evangelical
0:00:32 church and as a member of this church I
0:00:35 would first like to extend a warm
0:00:37 welcome to everyone who has come here
0:00:39 and extend thanks to both James and
0:00:43 Aadland for all the effort that they've
0:00:46 put into behind the scenes to make this
0:00:48 happen this evening we've come together
0:00:51 to do what many struggled to do in
0:00:53 public discourse and politics in these
0:00:55 days we've come to debate that is to
0:01:00 argue one position against another but
0:01:04 to do so with respect for one another by
0:01:09 James and Adnan I would consider to be
0:01:12 the best respective representatives of
0:01:15 both Christian and Muslim apologetics
0:01:18 and so we both a privilege and an
0:01:21 educational opportunity to not only see
0:01:24 these two men contends for their
0:01:27 respective positions but to also do so
0:01:30 in a manner that can be modeled for all
0:01:33 of us here this evening now before we
0:01:37 begin I'm going to give you some venue
0:01:39 information so if you need to use the
0:01:42 toilet there's one in the in the welcome
0:01:45 area and there's some further toilets
0:01:48 back in there
0:01:49 the whole pilot will remember and in the
0:01:53 event of a fire please go out the way
0:01:56 you came in but if there's a bone over
0:01:59 there then there's another buyer at the
0:02:02 back so with all that being said let's
0:02:06 get started the subject of the debate is
0:02:10 who resembles Jesus Christians or
0:02:14 Muslims the format of the debate is as
0:02:17 follows we will be having twenty minutes
0:02:22 opening statements ten minute rebuttals
0:02:25 then five minutes of crossfire between
0:02:28 both James and Adnan and then five
0:02:31 minutes apiece for conclusions then
0:02:34 after that we can have a little bit of
0:02:35 time for Q&A from from the audience
0:02:39 depending on on how things go
0:02:42 we'll see how much at the ends and so
0:02:46 with that I'm not sure who won the coin
0:02:47 toss okay so like see well at night
0:02:54 [Music]
0:03:00 ladies and gentlemen I would like to
0:03:02 thank you all for attending this
0:03:03 important discussion this discussion is
0:03:06 important because we will proceed in the
0:03:09 spirit of love and compassion there is a
0:03:11 lot of hate and misunderstanding out
0:03:13 there which we both disagree with and
0:03:18 the point of this discussion this
0:03:20 dialogue this debate today is to show
0:03:22 the world that Christians and Muslims
0:03:24 can come together as brothers in
0:03:27 humanity and discuss the differences in
0:03:30 a perfectly civilized setting and go
0:03:33 home in one piece I always like to give
0:03:37 presents to dr. Jim James white I have a
0:03:39 special respect for him and the the gift
0:03:46 I have for him today is a very special
0:03:48 indeed not that the other others were
0:03:50 not special this is a coin from the
0:03:54 first century of Islam it is dated it is
0:03:58 Annamayya dirham from the year 97
0:04:03 of Islam 97 aah when some of the
0:04:07 Companions of the Prophet of Islam were
0:04:10 alive it has an entire chapter of the
0:04:12 Quran inscribed on the coin and we see a
0:04:16 lot of Christian friends out there
0:04:17 claiming that Muslims do not have any
0:04:19 evidence for the first century of the
0:04:21 Quran some people do unfortunately so
0:04:24 I'm giving this to a Christian scholar
0:04:25 so that he can in the future confirm
0:04:27 that I have something from the first
0:04:29 century of Islam with Quran on it so a
0:04:32 present for James with love and respect
0:04:35 so we can start with my time now
0:04:46 bismillah r-rahman r-rahim in the name
0:04:48 of God the merciful the beneficent the
0:04:50 topic today is who resembles Jesus
0:04:52 Muslims or Christians what do we mean by
0:04:58 resemble one can resemble someone in
0:05:01 physical looks or in beliefs in behavior
0:05:05 so we will be looking at all these
0:05:07 things today do the Christians actually
0:05:10 resemble Jesus when I say Christians
0:05:13 I mean Christians who are alive today
0:05:14 who believe in the Trinity who have
0:05:16 certain ideas about Jesus Christ
0:05:19 likewise we will see that Muslims who
0:05:24 walked the planet today who claim to
0:05:26 believe in Jesus is they belief actually
0:05:28 true do they actually resemble and
0:05:30 follow Jesus Christ in all the things I
0:05:33 mentioned so resemblance and what
0:05:36 resemblance in worship for example do
0:05:39 muslims resemble jesus in worship do
0:05:42 muslims resemble jesus in beliefs do the
0:05:47 christians resemble jesus in both these
0:05:50 things is the discussion today to
0:05:53 proceed what did Jesus call God is a
0:05:56 very important question what was the
0:05:58 word Jesus used among other words in the
0:06:02 Gospels one of the words he used
0:06:05 allegedly we are told that when he was
0:06:07 on the cross he cried or he exclaimed
0:06:12 allahu alahi la maza botany which is
0:06:16 actually
0:06:17 Aramaic if that is Jesus who is speaking
0:06:21 on the cross then he is using a word
0:06:24 which the Muslims use for God today
0:06:26 which is ilaha ill allah and allah he
0:06:28 are exactly the same words used in two
0:06:31 different languages Aramaic and Arabic
0:06:32 are sister languages so the word ilaha
0:06:34 is the same word Muslims use for God so
0:06:38 our Proclamation to accept Islam or to
0:06:41 proclaim Islam for that matter is what
0:06:45 la ilaha illa Allah there is no God
0:06:48 except Allah except God Almighty Allah
0:06:51 so ilaha illa Allah all stem from the
0:06:56 same root word Allah so Jesus used this
0:06:59 very term according to the gospel
0:07:03 records of course we don't agree that
0:07:04 Jesus was put on the cross we don't
0:07:06 believe that it was it could be someone
0:07:08 else and that's another discussion we
0:07:10 can have at another point I had a debate
0:07:13 with Samuel Greene not very long ago if
0:07:16 you want to see our view on the
0:07:18 crucifixion you must go and watch that
0:07:20 debate and myself and Samuel Greene
0:07:23 greeting jesus greeted his companions
0:07:26 it's like the Muslim to do or vice-versa
0:07:28 how did Jesus greet his companions
0:07:31 according to John 2010 Jesus said to his
0:07:34 companions peace be upon you how do the
0:07:36 Muslims greet each other today
0:07:38 obviously taught by Prophet Muhammad who
0:07:40 himself claimed to be a brother of Jesus
0:07:43 in faith so the greeting is assalamu
0:07:46 alaykum in the arabic language if we
0:07:49 translated that into the hebrew language
0:07:51 it would be Shalom Aleichem which is
0:07:53 what jesus said to his companions or
0:07:55 possibly some version of that in Aramaic
0:07:58 so Jesus and Muslims are exactly the
0:08:02 same in that regard when we greet each
0:08:04 other we greet by saying peace be upon
0:08:06 you the Christians do not do not do that
0:08:09 to their Christians do not necessarily
0:08:11 specifically use this mode of greeting
0:08:14 each other in that Christians are not
0:08:16 actually like Jesus that do not resemble
0:08:19 Jesus in that prayer how did Jesus
0:08:23 actually pray not what he said in his
0:08:25 prayer and even what he said in prayer
0:08:28 it doesn't actually contradict the
0:08:30 beliefs of Muslims every single thing
0:08:32 jesus said in prayer actually most of it
0:08:37 what the gospel authors attribute to him
0:08:39 is in line with Islam so how did he
0:08:42 actually pray we are told in the Gospel
0:08:46 of Matthew chapter 26 verse 39 that he
0:08:48 actually prostrated he went into the
0:08:51 Garden of Gethsemane he fell on his face
0:08:54 and he prayed to God this is prostration
0:08:58 this is exactly how Muslims pray and was
0:09:00 Jesus inventing this was he just doing
0:09:03 things randomly was this an accident
0:09:06 did he just feel like falling on his
0:09:07 face on the ground and praying like that
0:09:09 no he was following prophets who came
0:09:12 before him as you can see the references
0:09:14 on the screen Joshua 5:14 we are told
0:09:17 that Joshua fell on his face prayed
0:09:19 exactly the same way numbers we are told
0:09:21 Moses and Aaron the Book of Numbers 20
0:09:24 chapter 20 verse 6 we are told Moses and
0:09:26 Aaron prayed in exactly the same way
0:09:29 Abraham in the book of Genesis chapter
0:09:31 17 verse 3 we are told he fell aneesa's
0:09:33 his face and he prayed to God likewise
0:09:35 we have all the river in fact the book
0:09:37 of Revelation tells us that this is how
0:09:39 angels pray to God by bowing to God
0:09:42 falling on the faces and Nemea and 1
0:09:46 chronicles 21 16 gives us the same idea
0:09:49 as to how the Israelite prophets or
0:09:51 nobleman or priests prayed to God they
0:09:55 fell on their faces and they prayed to
0:09:57 God and this is exactly how Muslims pray
0:10:00 today prophet Muhammad told the Muslims
0:10:02 that this is how previous prophets
0:10:05 prayed therefore we pray like this and
0:10:07 this was based upon revelation of course
0:10:10 we believe Muhammad peace be upon him
0:10:12 received a revelation from God same God
0:10:15 who sent revelations to Abraham Moses
0:10:17 and Jesus and the Quran confirms the
0:10:20 authenticity and the authority of these
0:10:22 previous prophets yes of course the
0:10:24 Quran also claimed that they messaged
0:10:26 their messages were changed they were
0:10:28 altered therefore the necessity of the
0:10:31 Quran
0:10:32 hence the Quran so Muslims pray exactly
0:10:37 like Jesus did and most Christians and I
0:10:40 say most oven
0:10:41 90% Christians in the world and I'm only
0:10:45 leaving 10% to be safe
0:10:47 over 90% Christians in the world do not
0:10:49 pray like Jesus in this when we study
0:10:52 how he actually prayed Jesus did not
0:10:56 consume swine he abhorred a pig meat he
0:10:59 actually did not do it why didn't he do
0:11:02 it because he was a follower of the
0:11:04 Mosaic law he was a strict observer of
0:11:08 the Mosaic law and we will see that how
0:11:10 that is the case Muslims do not
0:11:11 therefore consume pork or swine so in
0:11:15 that Muslims are very similar they
0:11:17 resemble Jesus and other prophets of the
0:11:20 Old Testament Jesus was circumcised on
0:11:24 the eighth day we are told in the Gospel
0:11:26 of Luke chapter 2 verse 21 that he was
0:11:28 circumcised on the day now the
0:11:30 Christians believed that Jesus was God
0:11:32 even in the womb of Mary even when he
0:11:35 was born he was God because he had two
0:11:38 ninjas so when he was born of Mary
0:11:40 he had the divine nature and he had the
0:11:42 human nature so we are assuming now on
0:11:45 the part of the Christians that Jesus is
0:11:47 God right when he was born so if he's
0:11:50 God he's actually allowing himself to be
0:11:52 circumcised if he doesn't want his
0:11:55 followers the Christians people who
0:11:57 claim to follow him later on by the way
0:11:59 when I say Christians claim to follow
0:12:01 him there is no insult intended there
0:12:04 rather we have a view on Jesus which is
0:12:07 independent of Christianity and likewise
0:12:10 Christians have a view on Jesus which we
0:12:12 respect and appreciate we do not agree
0:12:15 with it of course and this is why we're
0:12:17 having this discussion today we do not
0:12:18 agree with the Christian view of Jesus
0:12:20 we have a consistent historically
0:12:23 consistent view of Jesus which is in
0:12:25 line with Islamic theology therefore we
0:12:27 follow that particular view so there is
0:12:29 no insult or there is no hurt intended
0:12:32 here so please be clear on that
0:12:34 so Jesus being God allowed himself to be
0:12:38 circumcised knowing well that his
0:12:40 alleged followers in the future will not
0:12:43 be circumcising they won't be following
0:12:45 so why be circumcised in the first place
0:12:47 but Muslims believing in him as a
0:12:50 prophet as a messenger follow him in
0:12:52 that regard
0:12:53 circumcised Muslims follow the same
0:12:55 tradition from the others in that
0:12:56 Muslims are very similar or they
0:12:59 resemble Jesus Christ
0:13:00 fasting Jesus fasted for 40 days Muslims
0:13:04 also fast for 30 days and they are
0:13:06 following a similar tradition right so
0:13:08 in the Gospel of Luke in chapter 18 we
0:13:10 are told that Jesus was telling a story
0:13:14 of a Pharisee and a tax collector the
0:13:17 tax collector was humbled therefore he
0:13:19 was he has a higher chance to be
0:13:22 forgiven and Pharisee has a lesser
0:13:24 chance to be forgiven because he's
0:13:25 arrogant but a point Jesus raises is
0:13:28 that he the Pharisee said the Pharisee
0:13:31 said to God that I fast two days a week
0:13:33 therefore I am pious and Jesus is using
0:13:37 that as an example of piety therefore
0:13:38 he's endorsing it and Muslims believe in
0:13:41 fasting twice a week likewise on Monday
0:13:44 on Thursday as taught by the Prophet of
0:13:46 Islam so Jesus using the example of the
0:13:50 Pharisee is not actually rebuking the
0:13:53 very notion of fasting for two days he's
0:13:55 actually rebuking the arrogance of the
0:13:56 Pharisee right so this distinction has
0:13:59 to be made so Muslims fast like Jesus or
0:14:01 as he encouraged others to fast for two
0:14:05 days to be pious now Muslims also
0:14:09 resemble Jesus in beliefs
0:14:12 unlike the Christians what do I mean by
0:14:14 that
0:14:15 Jesus worshipped a unique personal God
0:14:18 when he was walking the earth he
0:14:21 worshiped a unique personal God not only
0:14:23 that he confirmed the Jewish conception
0:14:27 of God which was unique personal Jesus
0:14:31 was not a Trinitarian therefore Muslims
0:14:33 are not Trinitarians Muslims follow and
0:14:36 worship a unique personal God there are
0:14:39 clear passages in the in the New
0:14:41 Testament where Jesus is confirming the
0:14:45 Jewish conception of God how do I know
0:14:47 this the Gospel of Mark chapter 12 verse
0:14:49 29 when a Jewish man comes to Jesus
0:14:51 Christ asks him what is the first
0:14:53 commandment or what is the most
0:14:54 important commandment Jesus tells him
0:14:56 hear o Israel the Lord our God is one
0:14:58 Lord right that's the famous scheme'
0:15:03 so Jesus actually confirms the Jewish
0:15:06 conception now if Jesus were the
0:15:08 trinitarian he meant to be a Trinitarian
0:15:11 or he was a believer in - in Trinitarian
0:15:13 this was the point where he should have
0:15:15 taught the Jew hold on a second you have
0:15:18 always worshipped a unique personal God
0:15:20 but Jesus actually confirmed in the
0:15:22 Gospel of John chapter 8 that you
0:15:24 worship the father
0:15:25 okay the father glorifies me the father
0:15:28 glorifies me of whom you the Jews say
0:15:31 that he is your God not the Trinity the
0:15:34 Father
0:15:35 Yuni personal God of the Jews so here
0:15:38 Jesus tells this Jewish man that here o
0:15:41 Israel the Lord our God is one Lord that
0:15:44 you the questioner can only imagine one
0:15:48 person which is the father and then he
0:15:50 turns around and he says master you have
0:15:52 spoken the truth there is no one else
0:15:54 beside him so the Jewish man is speaking
0:15:57 of the father
0:15:58 therefore Jesus worshipped a unique
0:16:01 personal God not only that he confirmed
0:16:03 the Jewish
0:16:04 junny personal conception of divinity he
0:16:07 was not a Trinitarian this was his
0:16:09 chance to tell the Jewish man he had
0:16:11 worshiped a universal God there and now
0:16:13 there is a new covenant I am the second
0:16:16 person within the Trinity and there is
0:16:17 another one the third person the Holy
0:16:19 Spirit he didn't do that he actually if
0:16:22 he was a Trinitarian deceived the Jewish
0:16:24 man which a prophet of God let alone God
0:16:27 would never do Muslims therefore believe
0:16:30 in one God was you knee personal not a
0:16:33 Trinity not not a Trinity for that
0:16:36 matter so in John 17:3 Jesus goes
0:16:40 further to confirm that father is the
0:16:42 only true God in John 17:3 this passage
0:16:46 was a huge problem for church fathers
0:16:49 writing in the in the in the in the
0:16:51 third in the fourth century they could
0:16:52 not reconcile this verse with their by
0:16:56 night Aryan or later Trinitarian view
0:16:58 they could not reconcile in fact Jerome
0:17:01 actually twisted the words of this
0:17:03 particular verse to suit his Trinitarian
0:17:08 view and we can discuss that in Q&A if s
0:17:10 brought up so Muslims and Jesus are
0:17:14 exactly the same in worshiping a unique
0:17:17 personal God Jesus never
0:17:19 worship at Trinity I humbly challenge my
0:17:23 friend my dear friend James White dr.
0:17:26 James Wyatt respectfully to come here
0:17:28 and tell us where Jesus actually taught
0:17:30 people or he himself worshiped our
0:17:33 Trinitarian God I am listening
0:17:37 and I will be listening he did not
0:17:40 believe in Trinity Jesus did not believe
0:17:42 in the Trinity and Muslims do not
0:17:43 believe in the Trinity and Muslims in
0:17:45 fact the Quran actually directly tells
0:17:48 the Christian Christians to not believe
0:17:50 in the Trinity because it has nothing to
0:17:52 do with Jesus Jesus never taught it he
0:17:54 never preached that he never worshiped
0:17:55 it where did you get the Trinity from it
0:17:57 came up in the fourth century it was
0:17:59 finalized finally in the late fourth
0:18:03 century in the year 381 seen to be
0:18:07 precise after the the Council of
0:18:10 Constantinople where three cappadocia
0:18:13 fathers had insisted or by their works
0:18:16 or by their insistence the third person
0:18:18 in the Trinity was added later on to the
0:18:21 Creed of Nicaea which was established in
0:18:23 325 C so the Creed of Nicaea is
0:18:25 essentially by Nigerian even as late as
0:18:28 325 C fifty years later in the year 381
0:18:32 the third person was added into the
0:18:34 Trinity into the piety and it became a
0:18:37 trinity of the three persons Muslims
0:18:40 therefore do not follow the Trinity
0:18:41 because they do not believe it is
0:18:43 something taught by the prophets let
0:18:46 alone God so the commandments Jesus
0:18:51 taught certain Commandments on the book
0:18:52 of Matthew chapter 19 verses 18 to 19 he
0:18:56 said you shall not murder you shall not
0:18:57 commit adultery you should not steal you
0:18:59 shall not bear false witness honor your
0:19:01 father and mother also you shall love
0:19:04 your neighbor as yourself
0:19:05 we are told in Islamic literature
0:19:07 Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
0:19:09 taught exactly the same principle that
0:19:11 you can see on the screen and that
0:19:13 hadith from Bukhari where the Prophet
0:19:14 said swear allegiance to me for not
0:19:17 joining anything in worship along with
0:19:19 Allah not to steal not to commit illegal
0:19:22 sexual intercourse not to kill your
0:19:24 children not to accuse an innocent
0:19:25 person not to be disobedient to do good
0:19:29 deed very very similar
0:19:32 they resemble each other as brothers
0:19:33 Jesus when you look at him and when you
0:19:35 look at Muhammad they are brothers in
0:19:37 one faith they're teaching the same
0:19:39 thing now we come to the question of the
0:19:41 law Jesus was a law-abiding Jew he
0:19:44 followed the Jewish law in fact in the
0:19:47 book of Matthew chapter chapter 5 verse
0:19:49 17 we are told that he upheld the think
0:19:52 not that I've come to abolish the law
0:19:54 rather of come to fulfill it in other
0:19:56 words the law made certain prophecies
0:19:57 about him and he came to fulfill those
0:20:00 prophecies and anyone who teaches others
0:20:03 to go out of the law even on a point
0:20:05 will be considered least king in the
0:20:08 kingdom of he is not from God and Paul
0:20:10 did exactly that as we will see in due
0:20:13 course later on right
0:20:14 Muslims uphold the law Muslims follow
0:20:17 the law which came from God we believe
0:20:19 the Quran was actually a confirmation of
0:20:21 previous messages previous laws Quran
0:20:24 came as a confirmation of the taurah and
0:20:27 this message came for humanity for the
0:20:30 rest of the world so in that muslims are
0:20:32 exactly the same as jesus jesus was
0:20:36 following a divine law so do the muslims
0:20:40 the christians today do not follow the
0:20:43 Mosaic law they believe the law or the
0:20:45 curse of the law was lifted by the
0:20:48 sacrifice of Jesus Christ Jesus was
0:20:51 crucified on the cross therefore the
0:20:52 curse of the law was lifted right and if
0:20:55 that's the case then either they are not
0:20:59 following Jesus or they are following
0:21:03 someone else which is Paul right so Paul
0:21:06 under law what Christians follow today
0:21:08 was taught by Paul law is a curse it
0:21:14 cannot be followed therefore it's a
0:21:16 curse so Paul is the real prophet for
0:21:21 Christians not Jesus Christ because Paul
0:21:24 went against a lot of the teachings
0:21:27 Jesus had put forward to his followers
0:21:29 so it is Paul the Christians follow
0:21:32 today it is Paul who came up with this
0:21:34 conception of the abolition of the law
0:21:36 and he was actually accused later on for
0:21:39 doing so and he denied in the book of
0:21:42 Acts we are told in chapter 21 how much
0:21:45 time I have got left three minutes thank
0:21:47 you I'm following your clock today okay
0:21:50 James
0:21:51 so in the book of Acts in chapter 21 we
0:21:55 are told that Paul was confronted by the
0:21:59 Jerusalem Council who heads the
0:22:02 Jerusalem Council it is James a direct
0:22:04 disciple of Jesus Christ not only a
0:22:07 disciple he was actually a brother of
0:22:10 Jesus Christ now how he was a brother is
0:22:13 another question altogether theologians
0:22:15 have grappled with this question for
0:22:17 centuries was he a blood brother was he
0:22:19 a cousin but the the New Testament calls
0:22:21 James D brother or a brother of Jesus
0:22:25 Christ and he was the head of the
0:22:28 Jerusalem church he had more authority
0:22:29 than Paul did because Paul is actually
0:22:32 obeying the instructions of James in
0:22:35 chapter 15 the book of Acts we are told
0:22:37 that Paul comes to James to discuss the
0:22:40 issue of the Gentiles coming to the way
0:22:42 of the Christ and now the question I
0:22:47 have is if Jesus has died and he has
0:22:49 lifted the curse of the law then why are
0:22:53 the disciples in Jerusalem years after
0:22:56 Jesus has died still following the law
0:22:58 why they're still going to the temple
0:23:00 and worshiping and following the law and
0:23:04 Paul was rightly accused by the Jewish
0:23:07 followers of Jesus in Jerusalem for
0:23:08 abolishing the law how do we know this
0:23:11 this is happening in the book of Acts
0:23:13 chapter 21 Paul comes into the city of
0:23:17 Jerusalem and the Jewish followers of
0:23:19 Christ are angry with him how do you
0:23:22 abolish the law and then James tells
0:23:27 Paul to go and practice the law in the
0:23:29 temple so that people know that this is
0:23:32 a lie but it was not a lie
0:23:34 Paul had indeed taught the abolition of
0:23:37 the law as we can see in these verses on
0:23:40 the screen there
0:23:41 okay Colossians 2:16 Romans 3 19 to 28
0:23:47 Colossians 3:10 Colossians 3 24 to 25
0:23:50 so Paul denied these accusations for
0:23:54 some reason and not only denied he
0:23:57 followed the instructions of James the
0:23:59 leader
0:23:59 The Jerusalem church and he went to the
0:24:02 temple and did the rituals according to
0:24:05 the law now there are two options there
0:24:07 for us either Paul is a hypocrite
0:24:10 who says one thing to the Gentiles and
0:24:13 says another to the Jews which is what
0:24:15 he did according to his own world he
0:24:17 said to a Jew of become a Jew or two to
0:24:19 a Gentile I become a Gentile so Paul in
0:24:21 not so many words is telling people that
0:24:24 he was a hypocrite right how do we know
0:24:27 this
0:24:27 he even deceived James he should have
0:24:30 told James hold on a second you know
0:24:32 Jesus has died
0:24:33 Jesus has lifted the curse of the law
0:24:35 why do I have to go to the temple and do
0:24:37 all these rituals the law has been
0:24:39 lifted the curse has been lifted you
0:24:41 know that James you are a follower of
0:24:42 Jesus you believe in the same thing as
0:24:44 as I do but they clearly did not believe
0:24:46 in the same thing they clearly did not
0:24:49 how much time do I have zero time is up
0:24:53 okay so ladies and gentlemen I will
0:24:56 elaborate on this when I come back thank
0:24:58 you so much for listening and I hope I
0:25:00 did not hurt anyone's feelings the point
0:25:02 here is to share our view on Jesus
0:25:04 Christ and you may disagree with it but
0:25:07 this is why we believe in Jesus in the
0:25:09 way we believe in him thank you so much
0:25:11 for listening
0:25:12 [Applause]
0:25:50 well before I start my time let me also
0:25:53 thank very much
0:25:55 Amnon machine for being here this
0:25:57 evening he stepped in we we had other
0:26:00 plans and other arrangements that had
0:26:03 been made for a debate this evening and
0:26:05 those fell through the gentlemen I was
0:26:07 going to be interacting with was not
0:26:09 able to do that and then even after
0:26:11 Adnan stepped in then locations were
0:26:14 problematic and so I want to thank the
0:26:16 folks here at Selhurst evangelical
0:26:19 church for opening their doors to us on
0:26:21 very very very very short notice
0:26:23 thank you for making the trip out here
0:26:25 it is sometimes difficult to put these
0:26:28 things together while traveling this is
0:26:30 toward the end of a lengthy trip for for
0:26:33 me I was in the Netherlands last weekend
0:26:35 speaking on very different subjects for
0:26:37 speaking on now and so I'm thankful to
0:26:39 everybody who has especially Ashley who
0:26:41 has helped to make this come together
0:26:43 and Adnan for stepping up and and doing
0:26:46 this as well unfortunately since it is
0:26:48 toward the end of a lengthy trip
0:26:50 anything that I would have packed to
0:26:52 give to someone other than Adnan to
0:26:54 begin with would be have been destroyed
0:26:57 in my in my bag by now and so
0:27:00 unfortunately even though I started this
0:27:02 tradition do you know when I started
0:27:03 this tradition
0:27:04 I started this tradition with Shabbir
0:27:06 Ali in 2006 and but sometimes when
0:27:11 you're at the end of a very long trip
0:27:12 there's not much you could do about it
0:27:14 but we'll have to well we'll make up for
0:27:16 it next time around with something that
0:27:18 nan will really love like maybe a
0:27:20 football jersey or something like that
0:27:21 no no that seems to be all the all the
0:27:23 rage right now Messi you want what a
0:27:26 hidden gate can you kick like him but
0:27:27 that was quite a courting to shot that
0:27:29 was amazing
0:27:30 anyways so with with that let me begin
0:27:34 my my time thank you very much again for
0:27:37 being here this evening and this is an
0:27:39 important topic and it's not one ever
0:27:41 heard debated before and obviously can
0:27:44 go a lot of different directions Adnan
0:27:45 just touched on
0:27:47 at least eight different topics that
0:27:50 could be a debate unto themselves but I
0:27:54 think it's important for us to consider
0:27:56 when we ask the question who is like
0:28:00 Jesus what do we mean when we say that
0:28:02 well Adnan has given his perspective now
0:28:05 I would like to give my own if we want
0:28:07 to simply talk about outward appearances
0:28:09 if we want to talk about things that
0:28:11 would for example we derived from living
0:28:13 in a Semitic culture in antiquity even
0:28:16 though you know exactly when the Quran
0:28:21 was written in the New Testament taking
0:28:23 place there's a half a millennium in
0:28:24 between but but still if we were simply
0:28:27 looking at things like that dietary laws
0:28:29 and the things that would be associated
0:28:31 with life and antiquity then obviously
0:28:33 we have to recognize that the question
0:28:37 would be does the New Testament teach us
0:28:40 to be like Jesus in those things and one
0:28:43 of the differences between Christianity
0:28:44 and Islam is that the Gospel message is
0:28:48 meant to go out to every nation it does
0:28:51 not bring a particular cultural aspect
0:28:54 to it such as clothing or dietary laws
0:28:57 or things like that it is meant to be a
0:28:59 message that will go to all nations at
0:29:02 all times and as such we are not called
0:29:06 to dress like Jesus or eat like Jesus in
0:29:09 fact the New Testament writers give very
0:29:11 little evidence of having any interest
0:29:13 in such things even though in the hadith
0:29:15 you have tremendous amount of
0:29:17 information about how many dates
0:29:19 Muhammad would want to eat and and the
0:29:22 odd number rather than the even number
0:29:24 and and all sorts of details like that
0:29:26 New Testament writers show no interest
0:29:28 in any of that and the reason for that
0:29:31 is that they did not believe that
0:29:33 Christianity is something that is to be
0:29:36 passed on that will have some type of
0:29:39 cultural normativity there are moral and
0:29:42 ethical laws and principles but they
0:29:45 must be applied in whatever situation
0:29:47 the church finds itself in and so why
0:29:50 are we really even debating this
0:29:53 particular subject because Christian
0:29:55 does not make a claim the Christians are
0:29:57 supposed to look outwardly like Jesus
0:30:00 behave like him in a cultural context if
0:30:04 in fact I would ask our Muslim friends
0:30:07 if Jesus is but a Rasul of Allah and
0:30:12 only a Brazil of Allah in other words
0:30:14 that that that section in Sura 4 171
0:30:17 specifically is denying that there is
0:30:19 anything beyond that calling that would
0:30:22 mark Jesus because that's the same
0:30:24 section that says do not say 3 so on and
0:30:26 so forth if he's merely a Rasul of Allah
0:30:30 why are we even here tonight why are we
0:30:32 even talking about emulating someone I
0:30:34 mean from the Muslim perspective Jesus
0:30:36 was just the Jewish Messiah he was not
0:30:39 the Messiah for all people he was just
0:30:41 the Jewish Messiah so why would we even
0:30:43 be discussing something like this now it
0:30:47 is interesting to me that not had just
0:30:51 said well you know we have a different
0:30:52 view of Christ we have the Quranic view
0:30:55 of Christ but I would like to suggest
0:30:56 you that you are dependent upon the New
0:31:00 Testament for most of what you just said
0:31:02 about Jesus because the Quran only
0:31:05 mentions the name 25 times maybe just us
0:31:07 100 times total references you're given
0:31:10 very very little information about Jesus
0:31:13 it's plain that the author of the Quran
0:31:15 assumes that his readers are gonna be
0:31:18 familiar with the New Testaments
0:31:20 testimony about Jesus and so nothing is
0:31:24 given there's only one place in all the
0:31:25 Quran where Jesus speaks from
0:31:27 identifiable historical location and
0:31:29 that's his cradle and that comes from
0:31:31 non canonical sources not from the New
0:31:34 Testament sources itself so the the
0:31:37 background material from the Islamic
0:31:39 perspective is dependent on the New
0:31:41 Testament at a nonce presentation quoted
0:31:44 from the Gospels quoted even from the
0:31:46 Gospel of John why because we have to
0:31:49 that's the only way we can know anything
0:31:50 about Jesus these sources tell us many
0:31:54 ways in which we cannot emulate Jesus
0:31:57 for example Muslims cannot emulate him
0:32:00 and raising the dead or being virgin
0:32:02 born both things that are specifically
0:32:04 affirmed of Jesus's capacities and
0:32:07 abilities Christians cannot emulate him
0:32:10 in being eternally glorious
0:32:13 the presence of the father is reread
0:32:15 only a matter of one sentence after the
0:32:18 text that Adnan quoted from John 17:3
0:32:21 you have John 17:5 where Jesus shows
0:32:26 that he is aware of his glorious pre
0:32:30 existence in the presence of the father
0:32:33 before the world was
0:32:36 so here is one person speaking to
0:32:39 another person speaking of the time in
0:32:42 eternity when those two persons work Oh
0:32:45 glorious in eternity past
0:32:49 that's comes right after Jesus's words
0:32:52 of John 17:3 so whatever you do is 17-3
0:32:55 you've got to understand what else is
0:32:56 said in the rest of the Gospel of John
0:32:59 so Christians could not emulate him and
0:33:01 being eternally glorious with the father
0:33:03 we cannot be the son of God he has
0:33:05 identified as the son of God in each of
0:33:08 the Gospels and not just a son of God as
0:33:11 if God has sons by the tons as someone
0:33:13 used to like to say but the unique son
0:33:17 of God so much so that when he used that
0:33:19 terminology of himself in John chapter 5
0:33:21 the Jews picked up stones to stone him
0:33:23 they wanted both thrown five and John 10
0:33:26 and John eight happened a number of
0:33:28 times because of the uniqueness of the
0:33:31 claim that Jesus made to be the son of
0:33:35 God what is more we cannot emulate him
0:33:39 in bearing the very divine name Yahweh
0:33:43 Yahweh Jesus is identified as Yahweh in
0:33:47 John chapter 12 John says that Isaiah
0:33:50 saw Jesus in Isaiah chapter 6 you go
0:33:53 back to Isaiah chapter 6 who was it that
0:33:55 Isaiah saw he saw Yahweh the early
0:33:59 followers of Jesus who wrote the New
0:34:02 Testament repeatedly identified Jesus
0:34:04 with the one divine name the specific
0:34:07 divine name much more specific than that
0:34:12 what you have in Eloi Eloi Lama
0:34:13 sabachthani Yahweh is the divine
0:34:16 covenant name of God and it is used of
0:34:21 Jesus we cannot emulate him in doing
0:34:23 that we cannot emulate him in
0:34:26 having a people to worship us but Jesus
0:34:29 in mark chapter 14 verses 61 to 64 at
0:34:32 his trial quotes from the Old Testament
0:34:34 and when we look back at the text that
0:34:36 he's quoting it's talking about that
0:34:38 situation in Daniel where there is one
0:34:40 who's brought before the Ancient of Days
0:34:41 and he is worshipped by his people he
0:34:45 has the people who worship him given the
0:34:47 highest form of worship and so we cannot
0:34:51 be worshipped we have not been
0:34:52 worshipped in heaven we are not to be
0:34:54 worshipped on earth Jesus accepted the
0:34:57 worship of his disciples and others
0:34:59 while on earth something that there is
0:35:01 no way that the Islamic Jesus would ever
0:35:04 accept because if you accept the thesis
0:35:08 that Jesus actually worshiped a yuna
0:35:10 personal or Unitarian God then Jesus
0:35:13 would never allow himself to be
0:35:15 worshipped Jesus would never allow
0:35:17 Thomas to say to him my Lord and my god
0:35:19 and then Jesus says to him now that you
0:35:23 see me if you believe blessed are those
0:35:24 who have not seen and yet have believed
0:35:26 no rebuke of Thomas instead recognition
0:35:30 of the fact that Thomas is speaking in
0:35:33 faith likewise we cannot be the object
0:35:36 of prayer that Jesus was in John chapter
0:35:38 14 in talking about going back into the
0:35:40 presence of the father he talked about
0:35:41 how after that having happened we can
0:35:45 ask him anything in his name and he will
0:35:48 do it directed to him has to be in the
0:35:51 form of Prayer the early Christians are
0:35:53 identified in first Corinthians as those
0:35:54 who call upon the name of the Lord
0:35:56 specifically in that context Jesus and
0:35:59 while jesus said all authority in heaven
0:36:03 and earth was given to him we are not
0:36:05 given that authority in any way shape or
0:36:07 form and so there are many ways in which
0:36:10 the biblical Jesus is someone that we
0:36:13 cannot emulate because of the fact that
0:36:16 he is more than just a man he is a true
0:36:19 man there is no question that he took on
0:36:22 flesh the word took on flesh but he
0:36:24 cannot be limited solely to those
0:36:27 categories but we are in fact to emulate
0:36:31 him and calling upon God as father just
0:36:35 as he did it is a tremendous
0:36:37 privilege to call upon God as father and
0:36:41 yet my Muslim friends do not believe
0:36:44 that G has ever prayed in this way
0:36:46 how could he use that kind of
0:36:48 terminology this in appropriate
0:36:50 terminology for anyone to use in regards
0:36:53 to Allah to refer to him as father but
0:36:56 Jesus did this over and over and over
0:37:00 again and in and through him not because
0:37:03 of anything in ourselves but because of
0:37:06 who we are in him we have the tremendous
0:37:09 privilege of being able to pray to God
0:37:13 as to our Father we do so trusting that
0:37:17 Jesus has in fact revealed the father to
0:37:20 us perfectly as no one else could
0:37:24 possibly do he's called the exact
0:37:25 representation of his person that's how
0:37:28 we can have absolute confidence of who
0:37:31 God the Father is an absolute confidence
0:37:33 of his love for us because he has
0:37:36 revealed himself in Jesus Christ there
0:37:39 is no arbitrariness in regards to our
0:37:42 understanding of whether God will be
0:37:44 will be will fulfill his promises to us
0:37:47 we have the promises of Jesus Christ we
0:37:51 are called to trust in God as Jesus did
0:37:53 in the cross when he said father into
0:37:56 your hands I commit my spirit our Muslim
0:37:59 friends don't believe that ever took
0:38:01 place
0:38:01 you know believe Jesus ever said those
0:38:02 words because there was no cross or at
0:38:04 least most Muslims I've debated a few
0:38:06 Muslims who have variant views on that
0:38:09 but the vast majority of Muslims in the
0:38:12 world do not believe that that ever took
0:38:14 place
0:38:15 and yet here we have the very central
0:38:17 aspect of every gospel Matthew Mark Luke
0:38:21 and John what is the focus of every
0:38:23 single one of them they're all taking us
0:38:25 to the cross the very center point of
0:38:29 history and there Jesus says father into
0:38:33 your hands I commit my spirit and that
0:38:35 of course is what every believing
0:38:38 Christian can say at their dying moment
0:38:42 as well father into your hands I can I
0:38:44 commit my spirit that is because of the
0:38:48 finished work that he has provided there
0:38:50 on the cross
0:38:52 we are called to fulfill the greatest
0:38:54 Commandments love God with all your
0:38:56 heart soul my own strength and love your
0:38:57 neighbors yourself because in that Jesus
0:38:59 taught all the law is fulfilled so we do
0:39:03 have a law and in fact the New Testament
0:39:06 speaks of the law of Christ the issue is
0:39:09 that we do not take a singular law and
0:39:12 then attempt to apply it without any
0:39:15 type of differentiation from culture to
0:39:17 culture to culture we take overarching
0:39:19 principles and then we have to deal with
0:39:21 them and I'm glad that's the case today
0:39:23 we're dealing with genetic engineering
0:39:25 and nuclear war and all sorts of things
0:39:27 like that and we need to have something
0:39:30 like the law of Christ that we are able
0:39:34 to apply beyond merely the scope of the
0:39:38 ancient world into the modern world in
0:39:40 which we live God knew the world was
0:39:43 going to be like this he gives us those
0:39:45 in-depth principles within that context
0:39:47 now you see I think one of the things
0:39:49 would be very helpful for us this
0:39:51 evening in Islam
0:39:54 Jesus is a disciple of Allah he's able
0:39:57 to Zul but he is one who follows Allah
0:39:59 he submits to life
0:40:04 is a disciple of law in Christianity
0:40:06 Jesus is the very embodiment of God in
0:40:09 human flesh the eternal son who took on
0:40:12 a perfect human nature hence our call is
0:40:15 not resemblance with a fellow disciple
0:40:19 but our call is being disciples of Jesus
0:40:23 himself so the relationship is not
0:40:26 supposed to be one merely of resemblance
0:40:28 it is supposed to be one of following
0:40:31 and Jesus himself taught that in the
0:40:34 Gospel of Mark chapter 8 and I want to
0:40:37 direct you if you do have a Bible to
0:40:40 mark chapter 8 after the revelation to
0:40:44 Peter that Jesus is the Christ as
0:40:48 recorded in Matthew the Son of the
0:40:50 Living God Jesus instructs the disciples
0:40:53 not to tell anyone this yet
0:40:56 it's that time had not yet come then you
0:40:58 have the situation where Jesus from that
0:41:00 time begins to teach that it was
0:41:02 necessary to go to Jerusalem but he
0:41:04 betrayed that he'd be killed and rise
0:41:07 again the third day this is a central
0:41:09 part of the Gospel message itself and
0:41:13 Paul a Peter I'm sorry tries to rebuke
0:41:17 Jesus Jesus rebukes Peter says get
0:41:19 behind me you're minding the things of
0:41:21 men rather than the things of God and
0:41:24 then in verse 34 I want you to hear what
0:41:28 happens because Jesus calls the crowd to
0:41:31 himself it's not there's just a crowd
0:41:32 around
0:41:33 he actually gathers the crowd and he
0:41:38 calls them to himself together with his
0:41:40 disciples and he says them if you wish
0:41:45 to follow after me if you wish to follow
0:41:50 him not if you wish to follow after God
0:41:52 if you wish to follow after me Jesus as
0:41:55 he did so often in the New Testament so
0:41:59 often in the Gospels places himself in
0:42:03 the center and says if you would follow
0:42:06 after me you must do something you must
0:42:09 deny yourself and do what take up the
0:42:13 cross and follow me
0:42:14 take up his cross he says if any
0:42:17 he must take up his cross and follow
0:42:21 after me deny yourself put your desires
0:42:25 and your dreams there done away with
0:42:30 because you see if you say to anyone in
0:42:34 this day take up your cross they all
0:42:36 know what you mean Jesus is saying if
0:42:40 you want to be my disciple
0:42:41 you must join the Death March and
0:42:44 everybody had seen it especially there
0:42:47 in Jerusalem the Romans have been Romans
0:42:50 were good at keeping people in
0:42:51 subjection and they had lined the roads
0:42:54 in Judea with crosses when there had
0:42:56 been rebellions in the past and you had
0:42:59 seen that horrible horrific way of dying
0:43:02 and so Jesus Jesus is not using sweets
0:43:09 and cake and money to get people to
0:43:13 follow him he is saying if you want to
0:43:16 be my disciple you must deny yourself
0:43:19 die to the year old way of life and join
0:43:24 the Death March the death march which
0:43:26 was so shameful was so shameful
0:43:31 you must take up your cross that's the
0:43:36 only way you can follow me now notice
0:43:39 that this is right in the section where
0:43:41 he's saying I must go to Jerusalem and I
0:43:43 must be killed I must be buried and rise
0:43:48 again the third day so we know what he's
0:43:51 talking about here he says whoever
0:43:54 whoever desires to save his life or
0:43:57 literally his soul will lose it but
0:44:00 whoever loses his soul what for me and
0:44:04 what my gospel for me and my gospel he
0:44:09 will save it
0:44:10 the folks is just right here that we
0:44:15 have to get serious with each other very
0:44:18 serious in each other I really like this
0:44:22 guy over here when we first met
0:44:26 you seemed a little angry that's because
0:44:31 he was used to speaker's corner and
0:44:34 speaker's corner does things to you but
0:44:38 then in dublin ireland i insisted
0:44:41 between two debates that we did did we
0:44:43 have lunch together and all sudden Adnan
0:44:46 found out that I'm a human being and I
0:44:50 happen to be a human being who does what
0:44:51 I do because I really believe that what
0:44:55 I'm saying is true
0:44:56 into the Muslim people I actually love
0:44:58 you and you may disagree with money that
0:45:02 you may say well you misrepresent us but
0:45:04 you know I'm not trying to I am trying
0:45:06 to be accurate in my representations as
0:45:09 much as I can to show respect for you
0:45:11 and yet we keep doing debates and the
0:45:16 world says well if you really liked each
0:45:17 other you'd stop debating know what I
0:45:22 believe and what
0:45:23 Adnan believes are not the same thing
0:45:26 there is no way to take these two
0:45:27 positions and Mel them into chrislam
0:45:31 that would be tremendously disrespectful
0:45:34 to what you believe and tremendously
0:45:35 disrespectful to what I believe sir 1:12
0:45:39 I a three if it's right I'm wrong if
0:45:42 it's wrong then I'm right I think that's
0:45:45 why I put it there's no way there's no
0:45:49 way to put these two things together I
0:45:51 wish it were not the case but if you
0:45:54 love someone you will tell them the
0:45:57 truth that's what our society doesn't
0:45:58 understand anymore we're not allowed to
0:46:01 do that anymore and so why are we here
0:46:04 here's the most important thing Jesus
0:46:08 identifies what it means to follow him
0:46:10 and Jesus says if you will be my
0:46:15 disciple you must deny yourself and take
0:46:19 up your cross there's one ion in the
0:46:25 Quran Sura 4:157 that keeps you from
0:46:30 being able to do that if you're a Muslim
0:46:34 where that ayah come from
0:46:37 now we've done debates on the cross
0:46:40 there you believe there's one Samuel
0:46:42 Greene was the one you did debate
0:46:43 recently I've done debates on the cross
0:46:45 the number of people even here in London
0:46:47 will do more in the future but the point
0:46:51 is that in Jesus's own words to truly be
0:46:55 a disciple of him you must be willing to
0:46:58 die with him that is not the type of
0:47:03 language a mere Watan Sewell uses that's
0:47:08 what every true Christian not just the
0:47:11 Christian got baptized as a baby and
0:47:12 thinks they're Christian the person who
0:47:15 has truly made a commitment to Jesus
0:47:17 Christ dies to self and takes up the
0:47:21 cross that's the only way we can be made
0:47:24 like is to follow his own words thank
0:47:29 you for your attention
0:47:31 [Applause]
0:48:28 [Music]
0:48:32 10 minutes 10 minutes yeah okay thank
0:48:40 you very much James for that passionate
0:48:42 sermon I always liked James preaching
0:48:45 he's a very eloquent preacher he has
0:48:48 been telling Christians how to follow
0:48:50 Jesus he didn't quite explain how
0:48:53 Christians today actually resemble
0:48:55 historic Jesus let me quickly explain
0:48:58 he's right that it took me a while to
0:49:00 see him as a human not as someone who is
0:49:05 out there to spread hate against Muslims
0:49:07 because I thought James is just like
0:49:09 other Christian apologists missionaries
0:49:12 around the world a lot of whom are
0:49:14 spreading hate against Islam and Muslims
0:49:17 actively they are part of the
0:49:19 Islamophobia industry some of those
0:49:21 people have have have actually attacked
0:49:23 James for doing the amazing work he is
0:49:26 doing for his people James and myself
0:49:29 are a victims of extremists and
0:49:32 thankfully we are not extremists this is
0:49:35 why we are here to talk with love and
0:49:38 compassion so that our people can see
0:49:39 that not every single Christian or
0:49:44 Muslim apologist or debaters or scholars
0:49:47 or activists are the same there are
0:49:49 people who want to have peace in this
0:49:51 world who want to share it a shared love
0:49:53 and compassion and therefore I want to
0:49:55 tell you ladies and gentlemen brothers
0:49:56 and sisters that I love you all the
0:49:58 reason why I'm here today is because I
0:50:01 love the Christians I want the Christian
0:50:03 to see our viewpoint I want to lift this
0:50:05 barrier that has been created by hateful
0:50:08 individuals out there online so that you
0:50:10 can see what the Muslim perspective
0:50:12 perspective is from the Muslims so what
0:50:16 did James talk about James talked about
0:50:18 a lot of things and he did not address
0:50:20 obviously that was his opening statement
0:50:21 so I cannot really hold him accountable
0:50:23 on that but there are many points I
0:50:25 raised and I was directly addressing the
0:50:28 topic resemblance how do we actually
0:50:30 resemble Jesus Christ right is it only
0:50:33 outward Richard Richie Rich allistic
0:50:35 resemblance do we only resemble Jesus in
0:50:39 dress code how he had a beard
0:50:40 how he walked around like a Muslim
0:50:42 looking like a Muslim no it is more to
0:50:46 do with inward resemblance which is
0:50:48 belief I talked about it Jesus did not
0:50:51 worship Trinitarian God James actually
0:50:56 confirmed it that he was talking to the
0:50:58 father why do the Muslims you accept
0:51:02 that language because we believe things
0:51:04 done previously were allowed for example
0:51:07 the Muslims believe prostration two
0:51:09 important people in the previous laws
0:51:12 and regulations was allowed for example
0:51:15 the family of Joseph bowed to him it is
0:51:17 now Haram in Islam therefore to use the
0:51:20 word Father for God Almighty is not
0:51:23 allowed in Islam but it was allowed for
0:51:25 the previous generations previous
0:51:26 prophets they could use these words
0:51:27 because people understood the context
0:51:30 they knew but later on the term Father
0:51:32 was misunderstood by Greek philosophers
0:51:34 and Hellenistic thinkers who basically
0:51:38 painted the word father in a very
0:51:40 different light and they started to
0:51:42 claim that Jesus and the father of the
0:51:44 same were of the same essence I'm not
0:51:46 going to indulge in a lot of things
0:51:47 James talked about when he preached
0:51:49 about how you know you must carry the
0:51:52 cross and follow Jesus and death and all
0:51:54 of that I'm not going to into because
0:51:56 that's not the topic today topic is
0:51:58 resembling how do the Christians
0:52:00 resemble Jesus historic Jesus in beliefs
0:52:03 most importantly not entirely not
0:52:06 particularly or specifically in rituals
0:52:08 I have clarified already that we pray
0:52:11 like Jesus with the Muslims pray like
0:52:13 Jesus Christians don't write we fast
0:52:15 like him we are certain I mean we are
0:52:18 men circumcised like him because he was
0:52:20 circumcised right and we do not eat
0:52:24 swine we don't consume swine meat Jesus
0:52:28 did not do that Jesus followed the law
0:52:30 and we follow the divine law the law of
0:52:33 Jesus was not the law of Christ which
0:52:37 was later on conceived by Christians the
0:52:39 law of Jesus was the Mosaic law that was
0:52:42 the law he was talking about in chapter
0:52:44 5 of the book of Matthew when he talked
0:52:46 about the law he was talking about the
0:52:48 Mosaic law he was not talking about a
0:52:50 new
0:52:51 or another more when he said I have come
0:52:54 to fulfill the law he was talking about
0:52:56 the Mosaic law what happened to the
0:52:59 Mosaic law it is Paul who came later and
0:53:02 gave Christians what they believe in
0:53:04 today if you put the writings of Paul on
0:53:07 the one side when he said in his
0:53:09 epistles 13 of his epistles and the rest
0:53:12 of the New Testament books on the other
0:53:13 side what the gospel authors are talking
0:53:15 about saying about Jesus you will see a
0:53:18 direct contradiction in some cases you
0:53:21 will see there is a conflict Jesus is
0:53:23 telling his disciples to follow the law
0:53:25 the commandments if you want if you want
0:53:27 salvation Paul comes along and he tells
0:53:30 us know the law has been abolished
0:53:32 then James comes along and James
0:53:35 condemns poor James states that there is
0:53:38 no faith without works and this conflict
0:53:42 is not actually detected by the Muslims
0:53:44 Muslims do not have any interest in
0:53:46 highlighting these problems in the Bible
0:53:48 we have the Quran James he mentioned
0:53:51 something very interesting very
0:53:53 important that why are we even looking
0:53:55 into the New Testament the reason I as a
0:53:57 Muslim is pointing out these things in
0:53:59 the New Testament because you are
0:54:01 Christians you do not believe in the
0:54:03 Quran I want to show you from your
0:54:05 scriptures that Jesus resembles Muslims
0:54:09 more than he resembles you if you are
0:54:12 not worshipping like him believing like
0:54:15 him or doing things like him then how
0:54:19 are you actually following historic
0:54:21 Jesus you are following Paul every
0:54:23 single thing you believe in on Jesus is
0:54:27 has come to you through the lens of Paul
0:54:30 you are reading into the life of Jesus
0:54:33 through the lens of Paul remove Paul
0:54:35 who's Paul by the way Paul is someone
0:54:38 who never met Jesus never knew him in
0:54:40 person
0:54:41 you have put all your belief in one
0:54:43 basket the vision he had on the road to
0:54:45 Damascus and you have completely ignored
0:54:48 the actual disciples of Jesus Christ the
0:54:51 ones who lived with him ate with him
0:54:54 talked with him walked with him people
0:54:56 like James
0:54:57 what is James saying in his epistle if
0:54:59 you read all the epistles of Paul 13 of
0:55:03 them what will you see the person of
0:55:06 Christ not the teachings of Christ when
0:55:09 you read one epistle the Epistle of
0:55:11 James is all about the teachings of
0:55:13 Christ every single thing James is
0:55:15 talking about is to do with Christ what
0:55:17 he taught what he did so James is more
0:55:19 for looking like Christ doing like
0:55:23 Christ and being like Christ rather than
0:55:26 Paul ignoring Christ and following his
0:55:29 view on Christ which is actually very
0:55:30 inconsistent with the view of Christ
0:55:32 according to the Christ himself so this
0:55:35 is very very important for you to look
0:55:37 into and why am i pointing out these
0:55:40 inconsistencies because when you look at
0:55:42 the evidence you see that in the book of
0:55:45 Acts chapter 21 James who had the
0:55:48 authority which Paul himself
0:55:50 acknowledges Paul in the book of
0:55:53 Colossians acknowledges that James is
0:55:55 the most important person from the
0:55:58 followers of Jesus Christ to an extent
0:56:01 that Paul himself goes to James to get
0:56:04 matters fixed who is James why is Paul
0:56:08 going to James why is Paul even
0:56:10 listening to James why because James is
0:56:14 very important very very important James
0:56:17 is not teaching any of that James didn't
0:56:19 talk about the divinity of Christ
0:56:20 nothing on the Trinity nothing on the
0:56:24 abolition of the law or law being a
0:56:26 curse rather James is a law-abiding Jew
0:56:29 who followed the Christ who believed in
0:56:31 the Christ he clearly had different
0:56:34 views from Paul so Christians today are
0:56:36 actually following poor they are
0:56:38 imitating Paul they resemble Paul not
0:56:41 Jesus Christ as I have already clarified
0:56:44 coming to the beliefs I asked a very
0:56:47 specific question from James James came
0:56:51 and did a lot of beautiful preaching
0:56:52 which is fine this is a church this is
0:56:55 what he's supposed to be doing but my
0:56:57 job is to highlight the inconsistencies
0:56:59 where is the inconsistency if Jesus is
0:57:02 worshiping the father clearly in the New
0:57:05 Testament why is he not worshiping a
0:57:08 Trinity was what is
0:57:10 teaching his disciples why is he
0:57:12 deceiving his disciples if he is a
0:57:15 trinitarian he should be telling his
0:57:16 disciples there is a trinity in the
0:57:19 heavens and we worship that Trinity
0:57:21 why is he worshiping uni personal God a
0:57:24 uni personal God called the father
0:57:27 called the ilaha right why is Jesus
0:57:30 worshipping that uni personal God is a
0:57:33 very important question in that most
0:57:35 importantly and this is something in
0:57:37 word this is to do with belief not
0:57:39 outward rituals I agree with James that
0:57:42 if you outwardly look like someone
0:57:45 doesn't necessarily mean that you are
0:57:47 like that person or you are following
0:57:49 that person I agree but how are the
0:57:51 Christians following Jesus today how are
0:57:54 they following Jesus if they believe in
0:57:56 a Trinity jesus never taught eternity
0:57:58 never worship the Trinity never preached
0:58:01 it why are the Christians following or
0:58:04 worshiping a Trinity it's a very
0:58:06 important question
0:58:07 Jesus was a strict monotheists who
0:58:10 worshipped a unique personal God that
0:58:13 means one person one being the father
0:58:16 and he taught his companions that his
0:58:18 disciples that as confirmed by James
0:58:20 himself so ladies and gentlemen I really
0:58:23 want you to contemplate on not only
0:58:25 outward resemblance of Jesus also the
0:58:29 inward resemblance of Jesus when it
0:58:31 comes to beliefs what beliefs did Jesus
0:58:34 hold on divinity and on following the
0:58:38 law thank you so much for listening
0:58:42 [Applause]
0:59:21 the real problem with debates like this
0:59:23 is you get 10 minutes to respond to 20
0:59:25 minutes what the other guy said there's
0:59:26 a problem with that it takes you longer
0:59:28 to respond to things and it does to make
0:59:30 assertions but let me just get to a few
0:59:32 important things it was said that my
0:59:37 preaching on what Jesus said in mark
0:59:40 chapter 8 was not on the topic tonight
0:59:42 it is the topic tonight when Jesus
0:59:46 defines what it is to be his follower to
0:59:49 be like him to be one of those who
0:59:51 believe what he has to say to hold his
0:59:53 beliefs when Jesus lays it out the way
0:59:56 he does it is impossible for a Muslim to
0:59:59 believe and we were told well you know
1:00:02 we're just only using New Testament
1:00:03 tonight because you're Christians is so
1:00:05 we're showing you where the
1:00:06 inconsistencies are the problem is I
1:00:09 would like to challenge odd non tell us
1:00:11 something about what Jesus said or did
1:00:13 without using the New Testament all you
1:00:17 have are a couple of disjointed a
1:00:19 historical statements in the Quran
1:00:21 you've got nothing you have nothing this
1:00:24 from any identifiable historical place
1:00:26 in the Quran and even then you're
1:00:28 talking about six hundred years down the
1:00:30 road without a shred of historical
1:00:31 evidence that goes back to the first
1:00:32 century you are dependent upon the New
1:00:35 Testament the problem is you then have
1:00:37 to pick and choose what of the New
1:00:38 Testament you're going to believe now
1:00:41 there was a lot said about Paul
1:00:43 interestingly enough and those who are
1:00:47 watching this will will mention you know
1:00:49 what the topic I wanted to get for the
1:00:50 debate for a debate for this trip was
1:00:54 Paul a true apostle the Lord Jesus
1:00:55 Christ I'm coming back in November let's
1:00:59 make it happen
1:01:00 because I will defend that and I will
1:01:04 demonstrate it from the text of
1:01:07 scripture the statements made about Paul
1:01:10 especially his understanding of law I'm
1:01:12 sorry are just misguided they do not
1:01:15 understand Paul's I'm just he himself
1:01:17 said in Romans chapter 3 after he says
1:01:19 were justified by faith do we then do
1:01:22 away with the law
1:01:23 no we established the law he said the
1:01:26 law was good it's the law of God you
1:01:28 just have to understand what the purpose
1:01:29 of the law was it's to show us our sin
1:01:32 and drive us to a Savior
1:01:34 once you understand that then you
1:01:36 understand that so much of the
1:01:37 accusation against Paul simply does not
1:01:40 follow now we were told that Jesus teach
1:01:44 taught a unit personal God how does that
1:01:47 work if now again the only way you can
1:01:49 make this work is if you cut up the New
1:01:52 Testament in two parts you accept one
1:01:54 part of a book and another part of
1:01:55 another book you reject that another
1:01:57 part in other parts so on so forth
1:01:59 but I'm not quoted from John chapter
1:02:00 eight so let's go with just John chapter
1:02:04 eight how does Jesus identify himself in
1:02:06 John chapter eight first of all he
1:02:08 identifies the father is the one who was
1:02:09 sent him he also says that he always
1:02:12 does the will of the father he also says
1:02:14 that unless you believe that ego Eimi I
1:02:18 am you will die in your sins John 8:24
1:02:23 at the end of the chapter he says before
1:02:27 Abraham was ego eimi I am and the Jews
1:02:32 picked up stones to stone him now who
1:02:37 believes Jesus's words Christians or
1:02:40 Muslims Muslims only believe he said
1:02:42 those words so how can you quote from
1:02:44 John chapter 8 and then take out the
1:02:46 parts that clearly state something that
1:02:49 is directly opposed to the conclusions
1:02:52 of the Quran you can't do that and so
1:02:55 when it is asserted yoona personal God
1:02:58 Jesus identifies the father as a
1:03:01 distinct person from himself and yet he
1:03:05 identifies himself with the father as
1:03:07 having the one glory of God he is
1:03:09 worshipped by the disciples when Thomas
1:03:11 calls him my my lord and my god he does
1:03:14 not rebuke him in Matthew after his
1:03:17 resurrection the disciples worship Him
1:03:18 he does not rebuke them this is
1:03:21 consistent with everything else that
1:03:22 goes on into the text of Paul and acts
1:03:26 and the other New Testament writers and
1:03:28 let me just give you one example since
1:03:30 some people will say well you know I
1:03:32 don't know that we can really trust what
1:03:33 John has to say I prefer a more
1:03:36 primitive gospel okay Gospel of Mark
1:03:39 chapter 14 the trial of Jesus when Jesus
1:03:44 is asked I observe
1:03:47 are you are you the Christ the Son of
1:03:50 the Living God how does Jesus respond
1:03:53 the first words out of his mouth are ego
1:03:56 Eimi the same words he uttered in John
1:03:59 8:24 and 8:58 by the way I am and you
1:04:03 will see the Son of man seated at the
1:04:06 right hand of power and coming with the
1:04:10 clouds of heaven Jesus takes two
1:04:13 citations one from Psalm 110 the other
1:04:15 from Daniel he puts them together every
1:04:18 intertestamental Jew every Jew in the
1:04:20 first century knew exactly what those
1:04:22 texts were about and if you go back to
1:04:26 Daniel and look at that text the one who
1:04:29 appears before the Ancient of Days is
1:04:31 worship highest level of worship by his
1:04:35 own people
1:04:37 Jesus is identifying himself with this
1:04:39 heavenly being not a mere rasul of sura
1:04:43 4 171 and how did the jews understand
1:04:48 this the chief priest he tears his
1:04:50 clothing and he says what further
1:04:52 evidence do we need
1:04:54 you've heard the what the blasphemy
1:04:57 yourself and Jesus says go oh no no no
1:05:02 no no no you misunderstood I'm just a
1:05:03 mere law school I'm just pointing you to
1:05:06 Allah that's not what happens
1:05:09 Jesus does this purposefully if that's
1:05:15 the case then where do you get this you
1:05:18 know personal God you have to accept
1:05:20 everything that the New Testament
1:05:22 teaches and so when Jesus can identify
1:05:24 the father as a distinct person from
1:05:26 himself and yet accept worship when both
1:05:29 the father is identified as Yahweh Jesus
1:05:32 identified his Yahweh the Spirit is the
1:05:34 Spirit of Yahweh when Jesus can say
1:05:37 baptize them in the name of the Father
1:05:38 the Son and the Holy Spirit that is not
1:05:41 baptizing in the name of a law a mirror
1:05:44 Azul and the angel jibreel there is one
1:05:49 name and three persons sharing that one
1:05:52 name sounds like the oh the doctrines of
1:05:54 Trinity which we find in the earliest
1:05:56 Christian writers not 381 ad but if you
1:06:00 go look
1:06:01 at Ignatius the Bishop of Antioch on his
1:06:03 way to martyrdom in Rome in 107 or 108
1:06:06 AD not only does he identify Jesus as
1:06:10 God at least 10 times in his genuine
1:06:12 letters he also uses illustrations of
1:06:15 the Trinity there does he use the term
1:06:18 no but he talked about the Father
1:06:20 the Son and the spirit together in ways
1:06:23 that definitely demonstrate their unity
1:06:26 as the object of his worship that's
1:06:30 another subject we could get into of top
1:06:33 church history since 1990 and so it
1:06:35 would be a good one to get into and so
1:06:38 when it comes to beliefs I simply ask if
1:06:43 I ask every Muslim person and every
1:06:47 Christian person in this audience when
1:06:50 Thomas sees Jesus and Jesus says do not
1:06:56 be unbelieving but believe shows him the
1:06:59 wounds of an act that you as a Muslim
1:07:03 don't believe ever happened because of
1:07:06 one one forty word ayah written over six
1:07:11 hundred years after the events all all
1:07:15 of the first century material everything
1:07:20 from a hundred years after that period
1:07:21 sign says the same thing Jesus Christ
1:07:23 died under Pontius Pilate and across
1:07:24 every bit of it but you reject that for
1:07:28 something six hundred years later that
1:07:31 has no historical background to it but
1:07:34 Jesus appears before Thomas and Thomas
1:07:38 looks at him and says how could he have
1:07:41 some Mukai hot then I move my Lord and
1:07:43 my god
1:07:44 what should Jesus have done if Sura four
1:07:48 171 is true sir for 171 do not say three
1:07:55 Jesus is a mere Rasool a mere apostle a
1:07:59 set one of the law nothing more than
1:08:02 that
1:08:03 do not say of Allah anything but the
1:08:05 truth they'll go into excess is what sir
1:08:07 for 171 says look it up I'm not
1:08:09 misrepresenting you if that is the case
1:08:13 what should Jesus have said there should
1:08:17 have been an immediate rebuke just as
1:08:20 there was in the book of Revelation when
1:08:21 John bowed down to the angel who had
1:08:24 shown him all these incredible things
1:08:26 when John bowels down to worship the
1:08:30 angel the angel says do not do that I am
1:08:33 merely a fellow servant of God worship
1:08:36 God alone
1:08:37 that's what Jesus is duty would have
1:08:39 been in jesus's responses because you've
1:08:42 seen me have you believed Thomas blessed
1:08:44 are those who have not seen and yet have
1:08:46 believed
1:08:49 so I do think this is the issue will we
1:08:56 follow Jesus his own teaching is that
1:08:58 how we become like him well if we're
1:09:02 gonna be consistent then that's what we
1:09:05 need to do I didn't have time to get
1:09:06 into Mosaic law and things like that
1:09:07 just touched on those things very very
1:09:09 briefly obviously good topics for future
1:09:12 debates as long as I will still be
1:09:15 allowed into England after next few
1:09:17 years thank you for your attention so
1:09:26 it's my turn first
1:09:27 so this is the cross virus part of the
1:09:30 debate where we actually ask each other
1:09:33 questions for five minutes each it's my
1:09:36 turn to ask questions and I will keep it
1:09:39 as short as brief as possible so James
1:09:44 coming back to the two main points I
1:09:46 raised about inward resemblance of Jesus
1:09:50 because outward you don't seem to make a
1:09:53 big deal out of it outward resemblance
1:09:55 is not as important as inward
1:09:59 resemblance in your view I can somewhat
1:10:02 agree with you but again in outward is
1:10:05 very important also worshipping like
1:10:08 Jesus like prostration is very important
1:10:10 Christians don't do that today they have
1:10:12 historically to my knowledge
1:10:13 Trinitarians in particular Trinitarians
1:10:16 have never worshiped God like that I
1:10:18 mean to my knowledge maybe there are
1:10:20 exceptions but I'm talking sorry
1:10:22 yeah yeah yeah coming to that so if
1:10:26 Trinitarians did not worship God the
1:10:30 Father or the Trinity by prostrating
1:10:33 how are the trinitarian is actually
1:10:35 imitating or resembling Jesus Christ in
1:10:38 worship each one of the examples you
1:10:43 gave were unusual examples for example
1:10:45 the high priestly prayer of Jesus the
1:10:50 example of Jesus's prayer to the Father
1:10:52 in John chapter 17 he lifted up his eyes
1:10:54 to heaven he was not prostrate at all so
1:10:56 there is no singular bodily orientation
1:11:02 that is that is demanded the examples
1:11:04 you gave from the Old Testament regards
1:11:06 to like your nation priests and things
1:11:07 like that but there's your consistency
1:11:09 I'm sorry
1:11:10 there's your consistency all the
1:11:12 prophets that we know of prayed like
1:11:15 that and so did Jesus I don't I don't I
1:11:17 don't think that space at all well you
1:11:19 don't you don't think no I just gave you
1:11:21 an example of where Jesus didn't pray
1:11:23 like that yeah I'm talking about when he
1:11:25 did pray like you name it we you are
1:11:27 free to adopt any bodily position it is
1:11:32 not something that is demanded did you
1:11:34 have to prostrate did you see and so
1:11:35 there are Christians who pray in every
1:11:38 bodily I understand that I'm saying
1:11:41 Jesus was very consistent with previous
1:11:43 prophets with the Old Testament examples
1:11:46 I gave from Genesis from first
1:11:48 Chronicles from the book of Daniels as
1:11:51 well their example David prayed like
1:11:52 that David Daniel Abraham Moses
1:11:56 everything the priest did not though for
1:11:58 example if you look at how the priests
1:12:01 also prayed like that but say yes but
1:12:03 there is no command that they were to
1:12:05 prostrate in the offering of sacrifices
1:12:09 or any of the things that did the
1:12:10 situation's so how do you resemble
1:12:11 someone in so worship well by worshiping
1:12:16 the same God they did the way they did
1:12:18 it right no it doesn't have to be the
1:12:20 way they did it but that I've never I
1:12:22 think it'd be very distracting the most
1:12:24 of us if we tried to worship God in this
1:12:25 place to the smell of sacrifices but do
1:12:28 you not see there is a consistency in
1:12:29 prostration big Noida not you don't see
1:12:32 that
1:12:32 okay I'll leave it there then no problem
1:12:34 okay next question I have is Jesus we
1:12:39 Muslims resemble Jesus strikingly in in
1:12:44 our belief we worship a unique personal
1:12:47 God Jesus whenever he worshiped God in
1:12:51 the New Testament he worshiped a unique
1:12:54 personal God called the Father so why
1:12:57 did the Christians worship the Trinity
1:12:59 when Jesus did not
1:13:00 I just just gave the answer to that in
1:13:04 my in my closing statement it is
1:13:06 allowing all that the New Testament
1:13:08 teaches all the Gospels teach you cannot
1:13:11 come to conclusion when Jesus says
1:13:13 glorify me father with the glory which I
1:13:17 had in your presence before the world
1:13:19 began how do you take that and say that
1:13:24 Jesus did not exist as a glorified as a
1:13:29 glorified object of the worship of the
1:13:31 angelic creatures in eternity past great
1:13:34 so why is this playing these games why
1:13:36 is he not coming out straight and saying
1:13:38 I am part of the Trinity the Holy Spirit
1:13:41 is also part of the Trinity father is
1:13:43 part of the Trinity worship the Trinity
1:13:44 why is Jesus playing these indirect
1:13:47 vague games with his followers why
1:13:50 doesn't he like the father thousands of
1:13:52 places in the Old Testament yeah I
1:13:59 believe God has the right to reveal his
1:14:01 truth in the timing that He desires to
1:14:04 do so and so there here's here's where
1:14:07 you and I disagree even though it's very
1:14:09 plain but James's I think the sentence
1:14:12 would do it a sentence would do it but
1:14:13 you're demanding the timing in which
1:14:16 there is going to be revelation I'm
1:14:18 saying no until the exaltation of the
1:14:21 son why reveal something that will not
1:14:24 be able to be understood by people until
1:14:26 until the Holy Spirit has been poured
1:14:28 out upon the church how can you even
1:14:30 begin to explain but Jesus could easily
1:14:33 tell his disciples in the future this
1:14:36 conception of the divinity will be
1:14:38 clarified so there will be three people
1:14:40 you will have to worship three persons
1:14:42 within
1:14:42 one being just one sentence if it's
1:14:45 really important I'm just very very
1:14:55 briefly you're making a you're basically
1:14:58 saying God has to reveal these things on
1:15:01 my timetable rather than allowing God to
1:15:04 do it in his timetable and I would argue
1:15:07 that there are certain things in the
1:15:09 Quran and an Islamic theology that flow
1:15:12 along the same lines need to be
1:15:13 consistent okay but your time my time
1:15:19 okay so let's let's go back to it it
1:15:24 does seem that we are focusing in upon
1:15:26 the key issue that to be like someone is
1:15:30 to believe what they themselves to write
1:15:32 also outwardly as well as inwardly which
1:15:35 is belief yes okay so could you answer
1:15:39 the question that I gave to the audience
1:15:43 what should Jesus have said to Thomas
1:15:47 very good question
1:15:49 I think Jesus did make a correction when
1:15:52 someone called him good and he said why
1:15:55 do you call me good when no one is good
1:15:58 but God in this verse we get a clear
1:16:01 answer with you from Jesus that he is
1:16:03 saying to his followers he is not God
1:16:05 because he actually separated himself
1:16:07 from the the notion of being God in any
1:16:10 shape or form if he was God as you
1:16:13 claimed he was then this was the point
1:16:16 to say yes I'm good because I'm God
1:16:18 right but he makes that distinction what
1:16:20 he might have said to Thomas we don't
1:16:22 know what Thomas actually said in what
1:16:25 language Thomas said that to him again
1:16:27 the language is very important Moses is
1:16:30 called God do you believe Moses God
1:16:32 Moses is called God in the Old Testament
1:16:35 in the book of Exodus chapter 7 verse 1
1:16:36 Moses is God to Pharaoh right now what
1:16:40 do you mean by God here is another
1:16:42 question yeah okay so you you're not do
1:16:46 you believe that this encounter actually
1:16:49 took okay my view on the Old Testament I
1:16:53 didn't say
1:16:54 sorry the New Testament sorry the New
1:16:56 Testament I believe the new we don't as
1:16:58 Muslims that don't need the New
1:17:00 Testament to know anything about Jesus
1:17:01 we believe in Jesus because of the Koran
1:17:04 right so we believe there are many
1:17:07 things in the in the New Testament that
1:17:08 are dubious and there are many things
1:17:10 that are definitely from God who
1:17:13 originally they came from Revelation
1:17:15 Jesus definitely said those things for
1:17:17 example here o Israel the Lord our God
1:17:19 is one Lord we believe that we believe
1:17:21 those are the words of Jesus but other
1:17:23 things other people saying how do we
1:17:26 know when you cited the text for Jesus
1:17:29 feeding the rich young ruler you
1:17:31 understood that to be Jesus saying I'm
1:17:33 not God right now III have no problem in
1:17:37 accepting that those are the words of
1:17:38 Jesus okay and you understand Jesus to
1:17:41 be saying there I'm not God so that
1:17:44 means Jesus was saying I'm not good you
1:17:46 tell me what he means then what do you
1:17:47 tell me I am yeah I can't do that I know
1:17:51 I'd be happy to tell you I'll do it my
1:17:53 closing statement how's that but my
1:17:55 point is good meat I want it to be made
1:17:57 clear you have an interpretation of that
1:18:00 text that would fundamentally be Jesus
1:18:04 saying I am NOT good no that's not my
1:18:08 understanding this is humility on the
1:18:10 part of Jesus which he himself taught
1:18:12 his companions like the example of the
1:18:14 Pharisee and the tax collector the
1:18:16 Pharisees saying I work I moved fast
1:18:19 twice a week though the tax collector
1:18:21 collected the tax collector is not even
1:18:22 looking at the heavens and he's saying
1:18:24 god I'm a sinner forgive me God I'm a
1:18:26 sinner forgive me this is the same
1:18:28 message we get from Mohammed as well
1:18:30 where he was asked why do you even ask
1:18:32 for worship he says shall I not be a
1:18:34 thankful servant of Allah shall I not
1:18:36 even be thankful because Allah has given
1:18:38 me such a high status so this is the
1:18:39 humility of Jesus as a prophet as a
1:18:41 Messenger of God so is it is it possible
1:18:43 that what's going on with rich young
1:18:45 ruler is that Jesus is in fact
1:18:49 identifying himself as God and the rich
1:18:51 young ruler
1:18:52 see it he's the very one that gave him
1:18:54 the law that the returned ruler is
1:18:56 pretending to have follow I don't think
1:18:59 Jesus claims to be God anywhere directly
1:19:03 or indirectly anywhere in the New
1:19:05 Testament Christians have to use
1:19:07 insinuations inferences from other
1:19:09 people or the other statements that are
1:19:12 not clay even ego eimi is not clay okay
1:19:14 what does it prove it proves that Jesus
1:19:15 is pre-existent he has eternally existed
1:19:18 how does that prove he's God I believe I
1:19:20 have pre-existed in the knowledge of God
1:19:22 God knew adnan Rashid will be born once
1:19:25 and in the future
1:19:26 James widely be debating him on the
1:19:28 twenty so he was today today
1:19:32 second of man so this has existed in
1:19:36 God's knowledge eternally God news so
1:19:39 when Jesus says before Abraham was born
1:19:42 I am you insert in that somewhere I am
1:19:47 in the foreknowledge of God yes 100%
1:19:51 that's how I understand and why did the
1:19:53 Jews pick up stones to stone him because
1:19:55 they would have believed that about
1:19:56 everybody good question good question
1:19:57 and when they did pick up the stones how
1:19:59 did Jesus defend himself does it not say
1:20:01 in your Lord that you are sons of God
1:20:03 and I'm only clear sorry yeah John 10
1:20:07 but similar incident where Jews pick up
1:20:09 stones to stone him right and Jesus
1:20:11 responds by saying that I am only
1:20:14 claiming to be the Son of God and it
1:20:16 says in your scripture some 82 verse 6
1:20:19 that you are gods i'm only claiming to
1:20:22 be a son of god thank you so much so are
1:20:28 [Applause]
1:20:31 concluding remarks thank you ladies and
1:20:36 gentlemen for being present to listen to
1:20:38 both of us
1:20:39 and we appreciate your time and your
1:20:41 effort to make your way I would like to
1:20:43 thank Selhurst Church in Norwood South
1:20:47 London for accommodating this debate we
1:20:50 really really from the depth of our
1:20:51 hearts appreciate that and I would like
1:20:53 to thank dr. James white for another
1:20:55 opportunity to have a very friendly and
1:20:57 compassionate dialogue debate with him
1:21:00 what are we left with we are left with a
1:21:02 number of points I had raised a few
1:21:06 points to highlight how Muslims resemble
1:21:09 Jesus we resemble not only outwardly we
1:21:13 resemble him not only outwardly we
1:21:15 resemble him inwardly it is very clear
1:21:18 that Jesus did not teach the Trinity
1:21:20 anywhere he did not teach his divinity
1:21:24 anywhere Christians today have to rely
1:21:27 on external statements made by other
1:21:30 people to make that insinuation nowhere
1:21:34 in the New Testament we find a statement
1:21:37 where Jesus said I am God this is all he
1:21:41 had to do instead of going around the
1:21:44 world and making vague statements if he
1:21:48 really wants people to believe that is
1:21:50 God he could simply do it like God the
1:21:52 Father did in the Old Testament
1:21:53 thousands of places God the Father
1:21:55 introduces himself by saying I am your
1:21:57 God worship Me I am a jealous God I am
1:22:00 your God I am your God I am your God the
1:22:03 God of Abraham the god of Moses I am
1:22:04 your again and again the father is
1:22:07 speaking like that but Jesus does not
1:22:09 speak like that anywhere what we do find
1:22:11 from Jesus however is clear-cut negation
1:22:15 of his divinity if he was divine he told
1:22:19 people clearly he cannot be God like the
1:22:21 example I gave earlier when someone
1:22:23 called him good he said why do you call
1:22:24 me good when God alone is good in John
1:22:28 17:3
1:22:29 he tells his followers father is the
1:22:31 only true God in the Greek language
1:22:34 language Manos Latinos alone true if
1:22:40 father alone is true
1:22:42 others cannot be true a simple simple
1:22:45 logic so Muslims resemble Jesus not only
1:22:49 outwardly in the fasting in the prayer
1:22:51 in the prostration we talked about
1:22:54 prostration how Muslims prostrate when
1:22:56 they pray Jesus prayed by prostrate
1:22:58 prostrating to God Abraham prayed by
1:23:01 prostrating to God Moses prayed like
1:23:03 that Aaron prayed like that Daniel
1:23:05 prayed like that David prayed like that
1:23:07 consistent way of praying to God with
1:23:10 Jesus upheld and the Christians
1:23:12 amazingly do not follow him in that
1:23:14 today they have never the Trinitarians
1:23:17 have never followed Jesus in that
1:23:19 worshipping God by prostrating likewise
1:23:22 we have examples of for example Jesus
1:23:26 was circumcised how many Christians
1:23:28 believe in actually circumcised they
1:23:31 don't the Christians don't believe in
1:23:32 circumcising Christians eat pig for them
1:23:35 is it's not a problem a lot of people in
1:23:37 West the Western world is predominantly
1:23:40 Christian depending on where you're
1:23:42 looking at or what you're looking at
1:23:47 pork is the delicacy people love their
1:23:50 hand sandwiches and black pudding all of
1:23:53 that Jesus if he was alive he would be
1:23:55 the first person to tell these
1:23:56 Christians what are you doing you are
1:23:59 actually eating something I bought which
1:24:02 was forbidden by the law why are you not
1:24:05 circumcised why do you not actually pray
1:24:08 like me why are you worshipping three
1:24:10 persons in one thing when did I teach
1:24:13 you that when did I tell you to do that
1:24:15 you're doing it just because Thomas make
1:24:17 a vague statement somewhere is that did
1:24:21 I tell you to do that no Jesus on the
1:24:24 day of judgment he will be asking
1:24:26 Christian of these and through our
1:24:28 Christian history nearly 2000 years if
1:24:31 you look at Christian history how did
1:24:33 the Christians actually follow Jesus in
1:24:35 actions in worship in belief if you -
1:24:39 Paul if you take Paula who never met
1:24:43 Jesus who claimed to have a vision which
1:24:45 the Christians of wholeheartedly
1:24:46 accepted at the expense of the teachings
1:24:49 of direct disciples of Jesus then what
1:24:53 are you left with a few
1:24:54 as Paul you are left with Jesus his bid
1:24:57 his prostration with his circumcision
1:24:59 with his dietary rules with his
1:25:01 following of the Mosaic law with this
1:25:02 strictly monotheistic view on divinity
1:25:07 worship one God alone here o Israel the
1:25:10 Lord your God is one Lord how clear do
1:25:15 you want him to be what more do you want
1:25:18 from him if he's God he should have said
1:25:21 I am God so is the Holy Spirit the
1:25:24 Father you have been worshiping for
1:25:25 centuries now there are 3 in 1 worship 3
1:25:29 persons in one being never did we find
1:25:32 that with Jesus I hope you can see the
1:25:35 resemblance clearly between Muslims and
1:25:37 Jesus and Christians do not in those
1:25:41 things resemble Jesus Christ rather they
1:25:43 resemble Paul more than Jesus thank you
1:25:45 so much for listening ladies and
1:25:46 gentlemen
1:25:47 [Applause]
1:26:10 okay very very quickly in mark chapter 7
1:26:13 verse 19 jesus declared all meats to be
1:26:15 clean so given the fact that he is the
1:26:18 Lord Jesus Christ and he is the one who
1:26:20 created all meats I accept what he has
1:26:22 to say and therefore I follow him and
1:26:24 the entire discussion of that is now
1:26:27 over in James chapter 2 verse 1 we had a
1:26:34 question earlier why didn't James
1:26:36 believe in these things the brother of
1:26:39 Jesus in James 2 1 speaks of him as the
1:26:43 glorious Lord Jesus Christ it sound like
1:26:47 a miracle azul' the glorious that's a
1:26:50 very that's doxa that's the very glory
1:26:52 of God the same glory that Jesus talks
1:26:53 about in John 17 James viewed Jesus as
1:26:58 the glorious Lord Jesus Christ is
1:27:01 perfectly consistent what we've been
1:27:02 saying not consistent with the person
1:27:04 who believes Jesus is only a mere two
1:27:06 azul' as we see in Sura 4 171 John 17:3
1:27:11 and this is eternal life in or they
1:27:14 might know you Todd a Lathan on the--on
1:27:17 kai han a pest I lost a soon
1:27:22 Kljestan please don't know what it
1:27:24 actually says what is eternal life to
1:27:27 know you the only true God and and why
1:27:32 in Arabic there's a connective there and
1:27:36 the one whom you have sent Jesus Christ
1:27:38 you want to have eternal life you have
1:27:40 to know the father and the son
1:27:43 how could you associate him your
1:27:45 creature in this way well if you don't
1:27:48 just stop at that sentence and read the
1:27:50 next sentence the same one identifies
1:27:54 himself and says and now glorify me
1:27:58 father together with yourself with the
1:28:02 glory which I had in your presence
1:28:06 before the world came into existence
1:28:08 nothing about knowledge which I had in
1:28:12 your presence the son was in the
1:28:16 presence of the Father eternally and was
1:28:18 glorious that's what the scriptures
1:28:22 that's what allowing the scriptures to
1:28:25 speak state and in John 17:3 you say
1:28:28 well he's no he's he's saying Jesus
1:28:30 Jesus is saying that only the father is
1:28:33 God no Jesus is saying that he's not an
1:28:37 atheist there is only one true God the
1:28:41 Father is one true God so is the Sun so
1:28:46 is the spirit that's why they share the
1:28:47 one name Yahweh Yahweh don't have time
1:28:52 to develop this evening but someday I
1:28:53 want to get into a discussion with a non
1:28:56 or someone along the same lines
1:28:58 why doesn't there seem to be any
1:29:00 knowledge and the part of the Quran of
1:29:02 the actual divine name of God in the Old
1:29:04 and New Testaments it doesn't seem like
1:29:06 the author was aware of these things now
1:29:09 as you've seen this evening we did it
1:29:12 again Adnan we didn't manage to come to
1:29:15 an absolute agreement on everything in
1:29:16 one debate in that shocking
1:29:19 what are these opportunities their
1:29:22 opportunities to acquire us to think to
1:29:26 hear from another perspective to be
1:29:29 challenged but you see as a Christian I
1:29:33 can trust the Spirit of God to work with
1:29:37 the Word of God and that's why I
1:29:39 continue doing these things and I've
1:29:44 said this before and it is not in any
1:29:48 way shape or form meant to be offensive
1:29:49 it is absolutely the honest truth I pray
1:29:54 for Adnan I pray for it not I pray for
1:29:58 his his happiness and his health but
1:30:02 this man knows and every Muslim in this
1:30:04 audience needs to know my ultimate
1:30:08 desire and prayer for anyone is that you
1:30:11 know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in
1:30:15 your life you know that's what I believe
1:30:17 I haven't hidden that from you I know
1:30:19 that he would love to have me say the
1:30:21 Shahada and submit to Islam I know what
1:30:24 he wants we can be honest about that
1:30:30 without engaging in hatred toward one
1:30:32 another because as a Christian there is
1:30:35 no
1:30:35 there can be no room in my heart for
1:30:39 hatred toward anyone Jesus did not leave
1:30:44 that room there he takes it all up I
1:30:48 can't have hatred in there and so I hope
1:30:51 this evening you have been challenged
1:30:53 and I hope especially you recognize if
1:30:57 you come from the Islamic faith
1:30:59 my concern my message and my love for
1:31:02 you thank you for being here this
1:31:03 evening god bless
1:31:05 [Applause]