Londoniyyah - Part 23 - Christianity / 2 (2022-04-07) ​

0:00:13 welcome to the second session on
0:00:14 christianity in the previous session we
0:00:17 discussed some of the rational
0:00:18 impossibilities relating to the trinity
0:00:21 some of the rational
0:00:24 unintelligible aspects of the trinity
0:00:26 and why it's self-contradictory
0:00:28 we
0:00:29 just to remind everyone we use one dalil
0:00:31 in particular in the quran
0:00:33 who remembers the name of
0:00:35 the dalil
0:00:37 in arabic language that were used and
0:00:39 the area
0:00:40 that is used
0:01:11 allah did not take
0:01:12 a son nor did he have any god with him
0:01:15 because if he did have any god with him
0:01:18 they would have taken what they have
0:01:19 created
0:01:20 and they would have tried to outstrip
0:01:22 one another for power
0:01:24 now it's impossible for there to be more
0:01:27 than one or powerful entity
0:01:29 and as a result the
0:01:31 idea that the father is all powerful the
0:01:33 son is all powerful and the holy spirit
0:01:34 is all powerful
0:01:36 that's an impossible idea
0:01:38 likewise it's impossible for there to be
0:01:39 more than one ultimate creator the
0:01:41 ultimate creator is
0:01:43 the creator that has all creation
0:01:46 or that has created everything that
0:01:48 ultimately is responsible for every
0:01:50 aspect of creation
0:01:52 but if you say that the father is is a
0:01:55 creator of all things
0:01:57 the son is the creator of all things and
0:01:58 the holy spirit is the creator of all
0:02:00 things then you have assuredly uh
0:02:03 come to a contradiction in at least one
0:02:05 of those
0:02:06 or two other statements
0:02:08 so
0:02:09 this is a very straightforward and easy
0:02:11 argument to make
0:02:12 against christianity on a logical and
0:02:14 rational basis today we are going to
0:02:16 move on to the early church
0:02:18 and some of the opinions of the church
0:02:21 fathers
0:02:22 in the first three four hundred years of
0:02:24 christianity
0:02:25 now it's important
0:02:27 why is it important that we discuss not
0:02:29 just
0:02:30 the bible and not just rationality but
0:02:32 the early church who knows the
0:02:34 significance of the early church uh in
0:02:36 chris christianity what is what is the
0:02:38 significance of it
0:02:40 um
0:02:41 the development of the trinity yeah so i
0:02:44 think initially um
0:02:46 well obviously initially we would
0:02:47 believe that they obviously believed in
0:02:48 one god but then over time and developed
0:02:50 into
0:02:51 a minitarian of faith where they
0:02:52 believed that jesus and god shared and
0:02:55 then later on it became trinitarian
0:02:56 where the holy spirit came in yes but
0:02:59 the question in particular you're right
0:03:00 about that and we're going to move on to
0:03:02 that
0:03:02 why do christians why
0:03:05 do christians what accept the early
0:03:07 church as an authority
0:03:10 yeah
0:03:12 i think they call it apostolic
0:03:13 succession or like the idea that there's
0:03:17 so i have a degree divinely inspired
0:03:18 figures in the early period who are
0:03:20 authoritative in the interpretation of
0:03:22 scripture great yes that is the answer
0:03:24 i'm looking for now in terms of
0:03:26 different denominations we kind of
0:03:28 touched upon this in
0:03:29 in the previous
0:03:30 session um
0:03:32 which
0:03:33 sects if you like of christianity are
0:03:35 more likely to favor
0:03:38 or to refer to the early church and
0:03:41 which are less likely to
0:03:43 the ebene
0:03:47 are the ones who were
0:03:49 like jewish and they believed you know
0:03:51 in one god they didn't believe jesus was
0:03:54 god
0:03:55 uh
0:03:56 so
0:03:58 they're important in fact we are going
0:03:59 to talk about them
0:04:00 but what i'm talking about is now in
0:04:02 today's christianity yeah
0:04:04 so for example of the major christian
0:04:06 sects which ones
0:04:08 if you speak to a christian which
0:04:10 christian is most likely to
0:04:12 disregard
0:04:14 the the writings of the early church in
0:04:16 favor of say
0:04:17 the plain reading of the text
0:04:19 and which ones are most likely to
0:04:22 consult
0:04:23 the early church in conjunction with
0:04:26 the so-called plane reading of the text
0:04:29 the distance
0:04:31 so protestants what which ones are we
0:04:32 talking about the first one like they
0:04:34 they they don't really follow church
0:04:37 no they'll still follow the church
0:04:38 fathers and respect them but they'll
0:04:40 have a lesser view of them in in
0:04:42 relation to
0:04:43 the text they have a higher
0:04:46 kind of view of the text it's important
0:04:48 to know these things because
0:04:51 demographically catholics are actually
0:04:52 more number than protestants
0:04:54 i'm not sure if you are aware of that
0:04:58 um according to pew catholics are more a
0:05:00 number than protestants it's just that
0:05:02 you might be a
0:05:04 you might be associated with protestant
0:05:06 argumentation a bit more
0:05:08 because they're more evangelizing for
0:05:09 the most part especially to muslims okay
0:05:13 but catholics and eastern orthodox
0:05:16 christian or orthodox christians in
0:05:18 partic in general
0:05:20 are more likely to make constant
0:05:22 reference to the church fathers
0:05:25 so when you're having a discussion with
0:05:27 a christian you first must identify what
0:05:28 kind of christian they are
0:05:30 and how in tune they are with their own
0:05:32 tradition
0:05:33 if they are eastern orthodox or
0:05:35 orientalist or oriental orthodox like
0:05:38 coptic
0:05:39 or
0:05:39 [Music]
0:05:41 catholic
0:05:42 then it might be
0:05:44 the thing to do to exacerbate the
0:05:45 discussion about the church fathers
0:05:48 if they are protestants it may make more
0:05:50 sense to bring up more verses from the
0:05:52 bible
0:05:53 so you have to be aware of this you know
0:05:55 because you have to tailor your approach
0:05:58 to your audience
0:05:59 okay
0:06:01 anyway
0:06:04 the main argument is this
0:06:07 the main argument is this let me put the
0:06:08 main argument and this is the most
0:06:10 important thing here
0:06:11 the idea of three
0:06:13 co-equal and co-eternal
0:06:17 persons
0:06:18 of a trinity was not realized until the
0:06:22 3rd
0:06:22 4th century
0:06:25 in the 4th century in particular the
0:06:27 holy spirit was invited to the party
0:06:30 as a co-equal and co-eternal person of
0:06:33 the trinity
0:06:37 now the the key terms here are co-equal
0:06:39 and co-eternal now let me be very clear
0:06:42 what we're not saying is that all
0:06:44 conceptions of the trinity
0:06:46 were not made until the third or fourth
0:06:49 century because they can bring out
0:06:51 quotes from tertullian and this person
0:06:53 that person
0:06:54 which reference
0:06:56 the
0:06:57 the trinity in some sense or a trinity
0:07:00 of some
0:07:00 some sense they can even mention
0:07:02 something of the bible go in the way of
0:07:04 the father son the holy spirit you know
0:07:07 these we're not saying the trinity or a
0:07:09 trinity or
0:07:11 that kind of thing didn't exist for 340
0:07:13 years we're saying the idea of co-equal
0:07:16 and co-eternal persons of the trinity
0:07:19 where the father is equal to the son the
0:07:21 son is equal to the holy spirit
0:07:24 and so on
0:07:25 and the father is co-eternal the son is
0:07:27 co-eternal and the father the holy
0:07:29 spirit is a co-channel
0:07:31 these conceptions
0:07:32 only came about
0:07:34 in the fourth century after considerable
0:07:37 development the lack of which you
0:07:38 alluded to
0:07:40 uh correctly which is the movement from
0:07:43 kind of unitarianism and the kind of
0:07:45 trinity and you mentioned the ibn is
0:07:46 which is correct as well because they
0:07:48 didn't believe in such a trinity this
0:07:50 was a group an early
0:07:52 christian group that didn't believe in
0:07:54 this conceptions
0:07:55 at all
0:07:57 and so what we're going to be looking at
0:07:58 is some
0:08:01 some sayings of some of the
0:08:04 church fathers and ecclesiastical
0:08:07 writers church writers
0:08:09 now the distinction church father is
0:08:12 made particularly
0:08:14 to those who the catholic church let's
0:08:16 be honest you know for the most part
0:08:19 have decided are legitimate church
0:08:21 fathers so origin of alexandria he's an
0:08:24 ecclesiastic church writer he's not
0:08:26 been given the distinction of church
0:08:28 father
0:08:29 however
0:08:31 he is
0:08:32 one of the major writers
0:08:34 and one of the major thinkers who i
0:08:37 believe died 240.
0:08:39 uh something like this
0:08:42 mid-third century
0:08:44 in fact there was something called the
0:08:45 origin crisis that took place afterwards
0:08:47 which
0:08:49 may have been one of the main reasons
0:08:50 the catholic church decided not to make
0:08:52 him
0:08:53 a church but he says the following
0:08:56 he says the god the god
0:08:58 and father who holds the universe
0:09:00 together is superior to every being that
0:09:02 exists
0:09:03 for he imparts to each one from his own
0:09:06 existence that what that which each one
0:09:08 is the son being less
0:09:11 than the father is superior to rational
0:09:13 creatures alone
0:09:14 for he is second to the father
0:09:17 the father is
0:09:18 greater than
0:09:19 the that of the sun
0:09:21 and of the holy spirit
0:09:23 and that of the sun is more than that of
0:09:26 the holy spirit
0:09:28 now what is it saying here
0:09:31 who's the greatest according to
0:09:33 origen of alexandria
0:09:36 the father is the greatest okay
0:09:39 the father is the greatest so this is
0:09:41 called subordinationism
0:09:45 subordinationism the idea that the
0:09:47 father
0:09:48 is at the top and then the holy spirit
0:09:50 and the son
0:09:51 are underneath the father
0:09:54 so there were conceptions no doubt
0:09:58 of the trinity
0:10:00 before
0:10:01 the fourth century no one is arguing to
0:10:03 the contrary of that
0:10:05 primary source material
0:10:07 reveals that no doubt
0:10:10 but those conceptions were
0:10:12 subordinationist in nature
0:10:14 meaning
0:10:15 they had the father at the top and then
0:10:17 they had the son and the holy spirit
0:10:19 below the father
0:10:21 which indicates hierarchy which
0:10:23 indicates
0:10:25 that if you say that the father is equal
0:10:27 to the son to the holy spirit
0:10:30 the church fathers only started speaking
0:10:34 in that way
0:10:35 after as we said the cappadocian fathers
0:10:37 when we'll come to who the cappadocian
0:10:38 fathers
0:10:39 are
0:10:41 but this is not what people like origin
0:10:43 of alexandria or even tertullian
0:10:46 and i think he was one of the first men
0:10:48 to actually mention the term
0:10:50 trinity
0:10:52 he was one of the first men to actually
0:10:54 mention that term the word trinity
0:10:56 and once again
0:10:58 he didn't he was a subordinationist he
0:11:00 didn't believe in co-equal co-etero
0:11:02 why is this significant
0:11:04 let me ask you why is it significant
0:11:06 that these church fathers in the mid say
0:11:08 third century
0:11:09 didn't believe in the co-equality and
0:11:11 the co-eternality
0:11:13 of the father and the son and holy
0:11:14 spirit why is that significant
0:11:16 what do you think
0:11:17 because obviously people believe they
0:11:18 are eternal now but like the authorities
0:11:20 are saying otherwise
0:11:22 yeah it shows that there's been a
0:11:23 development
0:11:24 and if this is we are meant to be
0:11:26 worshipping god okay
0:11:28 we are meant to be worshipping god now
0:11:30 we don't know who
0:11:31 this god is that we're meant to be
0:11:32 worshipping
0:11:34 you're telling me for 300 years
0:11:36 that we have a wrong on the idea of who
0:11:38 the god is we're going to be worshiping
0:11:40 christianity wasn't that much level of
0:11:42 flux
0:11:43 they didn't know who
0:11:46 the god is aware so del target says the
0:11:49 following he's a
0:11:50 professor of philosophy so the term as
0:11:52 we translate is trinity
0:11:56 says it seems to have come into use only
0:11:59 in the last two decades of the of the
0:12:01 second century
0:12:03 but usage doesn't reflect trinitarian
0:12:04 belief
0:12:06 these late and these late second and
0:12:09 third century authors use such terms not
0:12:11 to refer to the one god but rather to
0:12:13 refer to the plurality of the one god
0:12:16 together with his son onward and his
0:12:18 spirit they profess a trinity triad or
0:12:21 threesome
0:12:22 but not the triune or tri-personal god
0:12:26 nor that they consider these to be
0:12:28 equally divine this is the key point the
0:12:30 last point the last point is that they
0:12:32 did not consider them to be equally
0:12:35 divine
0:12:38 now the in the bible as you may know
0:12:41 there are some biblical verses
0:12:44 the the most
0:12:46 prominent of them which indicate the
0:12:48 trinity the trinity of the triune nature
0:12:50 of
0:12:51 god
0:12:52 have been shown to be
0:12:54 fabrications and insurgents
0:12:57 for example
0:12:59 for the three that bear the record in
0:13:00 heaven the father the son and the holy
0:13:02 spirit and all these three are one first
0:13:04 john chapter five verse seven
0:13:07 they have that has been found to be
0:13:10 it's i mean i don't think any biblical
0:13:13 scholar worth their
0:13:14 salt you know would actually even say
0:13:16 anything about this being a
0:13:19 verse which is
0:13:21 should be in the bible
0:13:26 so this has been inserted why are you
0:13:28 inserting it into the bible why are
0:13:30 people inserting
0:13:32 verses like that in the bible if not
0:13:34 because they see that the bible doesn't
0:13:36 have enough justification
0:13:38 in and of itself for the trinity so they
0:13:40 need to try and force
0:13:42 uh
0:13:43 verses that are not there into it
0:13:46 the catholic encyclopedia
0:13:48 states in scripture there is yet
0:13:52 sorry there is as yet no single term by
0:13:54 which three divine persons are denoted
0:13:56 together simply simple point the word
0:14:00 trinity
0:14:02 referring to
0:14:04 god
0:14:05 in the way that is understood is not in
0:14:07 the bible in the new testament or the
0:14:09 old testament
0:14:10 the word triass of which the latin
0:14:13 trinita trinitas is a translation is is
0:14:16 found
0:14:17 in
0:14:18 theophilus of antioch
0:14:21 about
0:14:22 a ad 180
0:14:24 so we're talking about good 200 years
0:14:26 after jesus disappearance
0:14:28 afterwards it appears in its latin form
0:14:31 of trinitas in chattanooga and we talked
0:14:33 about to julian didn't we so
0:14:35 um we're talking about tertullian was
0:14:38 about
0:14:39 200 something i don't know exactly when
0:14:41 but once again you can double check when
0:14:44 he was about
0:14:47 we're talking third century here
0:14:50 where the term was being used like this
0:14:52 but not even at that stage was
0:14:54 understood
0:14:56 to mean uh
0:14:59 to mean them
0:15:01 three and one and one and three
0:15:03 if you look at
0:15:05 where then
0:15:08 it moved on
0:15:09 it the holy ghost
0:15:12 only started to become known
0:15:14 as co-equal co-eternal
0:15:17 after
0:15:18 the cappadocian fathers and we're
0:15:20 talking here in the late 4th century
0:15:25 and um
0:15:29 in fact there's sources which i'm going
0:15:30 to send to in the group which indicate
0:15:33 that they were confused as to what the
0:15:34 holy ghost should be
0:15:35 is he a creature
0:15:37 is he a spook
0:15:38 is he a you know creation
0:15:42 or is he god
0:15:45 and these sources
0:15:46 they trickle down there even at the
0:15:48 declared you were confused
0:15:51 the clergy were confused
0:15:54 let alone the lay people
0:15:58 so imagine like you don't know who your
0:15:59 god is
0:16:01 like you've got this you've got this
0:16:03 holy ghost
0:16:04 you don't know who your god is
0:16:06 and i think the holy ghost is the
0:16:07 achilles heel
0:16:10 because in both the bible and the church
0:16:12 writings
0:16:15 you have to do a lot of
0:16:17 take trying to squeeze blood out of a
0:16:19 rock in order to get the holy ghost from
0:16:22 the first century onwards being co-equal
0:16:24 and co-eternal
0:16:25 with the with the father and the son
0:16:28 likewise you have to do the same thing
0:16:29 to try and get the holy ghost to be
0:16:31 anywhere equivalent
0:16:33 to god yahweh or the father or whatever
0:16:37 it is you want to call him
0:16:38 let alone jesus or
0:16:40 not
0:16:41 because actually he seems greater than
0:16:42 jesus in the bible but as well as jesus
0:16:45 so he's the weakest link the holy ghost
0:16:48 is the weakest link
0:16:49 the holy ghost is the weakest link
0:16:52 and as such really one of the best
0:16:55 ways to deconstruct the trinity
0:16:57 is through the holy ghost
0:17:02 because on on every level on the
0:17:05 rational level on the textual level
0:17:08 uh which we haven't covered in great
0:17:09 details but you guys have seen enough
0:17:10 ahmadi that uh
0:17:12 debates to know what the textual level
0:17:13 is you know
0:17:15 yeah one one easy example is you know
0:17:17 when the hour will be no one knows
0:17:19 except for the father i think it's one
0:17:20 of the best ones by the way
0:17:22 the holy ghost is exempted from that
0:17:25 just use these verses
0:17:27 and
0:17:28 use these authorities to show that you
0:17:30 didn't know who your god was you
0:17:32 the holy ghost was not god for you until
0:17:36 the third
0:17:37 century
0:17:39 fourth century in fact
0:17:41 how can i imagine this is the religion
0:17:44 now
0:17:45 that is meant to be competitive with
0:17:48 islam
0:17:49 like this is the religion the religion
0:17:51 where they didn't know who their god was
0:17:52 of 100 years
0:17:54 and when they've decided that the holy
0:17:55 ghost will be their god
0:17:58 in 381 uh and they enshrined it
0:18:02 and constantinople
0:18:04 in you know
0:18:05 constantino uh
0:18:07 constantinopolitan creed
0:18:09 sabermouth was a constantinopolitan
0:18:12 creed
0:18:13 you know
0:18:14 then then
0:18:16 theodosius ii
0:18:18 who is the second uh after obviously the
0:18:20 first he decided i'm going to
0:18:23 punish anybody who goes against this
0:18:25 creed
0:18:27 that's what happened and they talk about
0:18:28 you know
0:18:29 christianity being a benign force that
0:18:32 didn't spread anything didn't do
0:18:33 anything damage you know it's very
0:18:36 benign force no if you went against the
0:18:38 if you went against this you were
0:18:40 committing huge heresies
0:18:43 if you went against the fact that the
0:18:44 father and son the holy spirit are
0:18:46 eternal that will be seen as high level
0:18:48 heresy and you could be killed for that
0:18:50 stuff
0:18:52 and so
0:18:54 this is how christianity really spread
0:18:57 is how it developed and then this is how
0:18:58 it spread
0:19:00 it developed
0:19:01 through hundreds of years of church
0:19:03 fathers discussing things with each
0:19:05 other
0:19:06 and we haven't had time to speak about
0:19:08 325 then i see increase
0:19:12 and then from 325 you'll if you read the
0:19:14 nicey and creed okay just in your own
0:19:16 time read 325 19 creed
0:19:19 it's very important
0:19:23 let me give you a bit more background
0:19:26 what happened was christianity
0:19:29 in the beginning was being person
0:19:32 christians were being persecuted okay by
0:19:34 nero and killed and all this kind of
0:19:35 thing
0:19:36 famously persecuted
0:19:39 and then in the year 313 you had
0:19:40 something called the edict of milan
0:19:43 which is basically a edict of toleration
0:19:45 to christianity
0:19:47 so they allowed christianity to be one
0:19:50 of many different things which were
0:19:51 being practiced at the roman empire
0:19:53 then constantine became a christian
0:19:56 after he had a dream constantine was the
0:19:59 rule of the time
0:20:01 and
0:20:02 he became a christian of the roman
0:20:04 empire and he became a christian after
0:20:05 he saw a dream and this kind of
0:20:08 uh
0:20:09 cross on the on
0:20:10 on his uh armory whatever it was and he
0:20:13 and he became a christian
0:20:16 325 now
0:20:18 uh you have you had the aryan
0:20:19 controversy which is very important
0:20:21 arius
0:20:23 uh and and then you had the
0:20:26 nicean creed
0:20:27 which was on the back of a council
0:20:31 in nicaea
0:20:32 which is present day it is with turkey
0:20:36 actually it's the present-day turkey
0:20:38 so they had this council and if you read
0:20:40 then i seen creed going back to the
0:20:42 point
0:20:43 you'll see that
0:20:46 the father is referred to as god the son
0:20:48 is referred to as god and the holy
0:20:49 spirit is not referred to as god
0:20:51 he's referred to as lord but he's not
0:20:53 referred to as god
0:20:54 so between 325 and 381
0:20:57 the holy spirit had an up promotion
0:21:02 he had a promotion
0:21:03 from the status of lord
0:21:06 to the status of god
0:21:08 co-equal co-eternal god
0:21:10 and if you look at how that promotion
0:21:12 took place
0:21:13 it's very clear that that promotion took
0:21:15 place
0:21:16 after
0:21:17 extensive discussion
0:21:21 extensive debate
0:21:24 uh
0:21:25 and
0:21:26 finally the cappadocian fathers
0:21:28 decided to
0:21:30 uh
0:21:32 to grant him that status or at least
0:21:35 argue for it and then it was understood
0:21:37 then you had someone like
0:21:38 augustine who wrote this book
0:21:41 trinitatus
0:21:43 uh which is as i've said um
0:21:45 about arguing for the trinity
0:21:47 many different volumes trying to use all
0:21:49 these analogies
0:21:51 he was for as far as i know the first
0:21:53 person to separate
0:21:54 uzia from persona or substance
0:21:58 from the personhood
0:22:02 and you had different versions of
0:22:03 hypostatic union
0:22:05 and there was schisms and
0:22:07 the idea of the union between the father
0:22:09 son and the holy spirit
0:22:11 and
0:22:13 here we are now after the roman empire
0:22:16 decided
0:22:17 to forcefully to put this
0:22:20 uh thing through
0:22:21 and
0:22:22 and then the roman empire spread
0:22:24 so you can see through
0:22:27 historical record a clear development
0:22:31 and therefore
0:22:33 we see the need for islam because their
0:22:35 religion has been corrupted
0:22:37 we don't even know who god is anymore
0:22:40 like
0:22:41 and that is why one of the reasons why
0:22:43 when islam did enter the especially the
0:22:45 eastern provinces a lot of people
0:22:46 converted to islam
0:22:47 because they had already found this kind
0:22:49 of thing very troubling the father is
0:22:51 equal to the son the son is equal to the
0:22:53 holy spirit some of the schisms of the
0:22:55 church related to the subordinationist
0:22:57 positions which should then prop
0:22:58 themselves back up
0:23:00 because
0:23:01 it made more sense to people
0:23:03 at least it makes more sense than three
0:23:05 co-equal eternal
0:23:07 persons of the trinity and with that
0:23:09 will conclude i know it's a very short
0:23:10 session today but we will do some more
0:23:12 role plays with the guys
0:23:20 what we want to do is quickly go through
0:23:21 some of the main
0:23:23 uh
0:23:24 verses because we spoke about the
0:23:26 rationality
0:23:27 arguments and we spoke about like kind
0:23:29 of the
0:23:30 um the historical aspects obviously
0:23:32 these things can be fleshed out a lot
0:23:33 more
0:23:35 but now we're going to speak about the
0:23:36 textual aspect of it and so i'm going to
0:23:38 go through some of the the main verses
0:23:41 that are used
0:23:42 in support of the trinity and
0:23:45 this is actually coming from a um
0:23:47 a toolkit written by abu zakaria who
0:23:49 wrote this book as well it's a very good
0:23:51 book free of charge actually you can
0:23:52 download it free of charge
0:23:54 which goes through a lot of these
0:23:56 arguments
0:23:57 man messenger messiah jesus the jesus
0:23:59 book very famous book very good one to
0:24:01 have
0:24:02 and we're going to go through some of
0:24:03 the main
0:24:04 uh things that
0:24:06 they come with the pipeline that we're
0:24:07 going to quickly go through them
0:24:09 obviously if people want more
0:24:10 information they can go to
0:24:12 you can go to uh
0:24:14 manyprofits1message.com it's free of
0:24:16 charge it's called the trinity toolkit
0:24:17 you can google it
0:24:19 and we may provide a link in the
0:24:20 description box as well
0:24:22 so let's start with the first one john 1
0:24:24 1 in the beginning was the word and the
0:24:26 word was with god and the word was god
0:24:28 now this is john
0:24:30 and
0:24:31 many biblical scholars nowadays and text
0:24:33 critics and others they say john had a
0:24:35 high christology just like paul did
0:24:36 meaning that he believed that jesus was
0:24:38 god and if we say that yes john believed
0:24:41 that jesus is god it's not a problem so
0:24:43 we don't really have to kind of argue
0:24:44 against this point too much because all
0:24:45 it proves is that john
0:24:48 who came 90 or wrote his
0:24:51 gospel some 90 years after jesus
0:24:52 disappearance
0:24:54 believed it had a high christology just
0:24:56 like paul did
0:24:57 and so
0:24:58 it just it doesn't actually prove
0:24:59 anything to us it doesn't say because
0:25:01 the claim that we are making
0:25:02 is that jesus and his mother
0:25:05 jesus and the disciples
0:25:07 were not of the same belief system as
0:25:09 those who came after them and john
0:25:11 is one of those people that came after
0:25:13 them
0:25:15 the second verse is that there are three
0:25:16 that bear the record in heaven the
0:25:18 father and the holy spirit
0:25:21 first john chapter five verse six seven
0:25:23 sorry and this is an interpolation we
0:25:25 talked about how this has been inserted
0:25:26 it's been added into the bible but even
0:25:28 if it wasn't it would have the same
0:25:30 issue that we just outlined with john
0:25:32 it's not jesus speaking here at all and
0:25:34 so we don't have any issues we we don't
0:25:37 care about this
0:25:38 in fact the whole bible we could say the
0:25:40 same thing i mean even the things that
0:25:41 jesus said
0:25:42 where he spoke about supposedly spoke
0:25:44 there's no chain of narration it's not
0:25:46 preserved and therefore we can we say
0:25:48 none of it is authoritative quite
0:25:49 frankly but we're being a bit particular
0:25:52 here because people that have a high
0:25:53 regard of the scripture may want these
0:25:55 kinds of explanations so we give it to
0:25:56 them anyway to show them as fruitless
0:25:59 the third thing is
0:26:00 for god so loved the world that he gave
0:26:02 his only begotten son
0:26:03 that whoever
0:26:05 whosoever believed in him should not
0:26:07 perish but have everlasting life but
0:26:10 this term one and only one son is used
0:26:12 even in reference to abraham in the
0:26:13 bible
0:26:14 um
0:26:15 having giving up his son
0:26:17 and so it's it's not you know
0:26:20 it's not specific
0:26:22 you can have more than one only begotten
0:26:23 son according to the biblical discourse
0:26:25 if you look for example the book of job
0:26:28 chapter 1 verse 6
0:26:30 you have this
0:26:32 or i should say actually not the book of
0:26:34 job
0:26:36 sorry the book of hebrews which is in
0:26:37 the new testament right so looking at
0:26:39 hebrews 11 17
0:26:41 and abraham is offering his only
0:26:43 begotten son even though he had two sons
0:26:46 at least as we as we know from the
0:26:48 biblical discourse so this doesn't do
0:26:49 anything and what does it do to prove
0:26:50 the trinity with three equal eternal
0:26:53 persons of trinity it does nothing
0:26:55 i and the father are one
0:26:57 uh 10 30 is another verse
0:27:00 but jesus also says that
0:27:02 it is it not written in your
0:27:04 law i have said you are gods so in other
0:27:07 words when they're about to stone him
0:27:10 he he changed uh what seemed to be his
0:27:12 tone
0:27:13 and he said isn't is it not raising your
0:27:15 laws that you you're all gods in other
0:27:16 words he's exonerating himself from the
0:27:18 charge that he's claiming divinity in
0:27:19 fact he should have taken the shot he
0:27:21 should have taken
0:27:22 the stoning if he believed that in fact
0:27:24 he was it was god why why does it have
0:27:26 to justify himself to the jews
0:27:28 or anybody else
0:27:29 uh so that's that's something there
0:27:35 then i um
0:27:38 jesus has the father in him which is
0:27:40 john chapter 14 verse 11. he said me i
0:27:43 believe believe me when i say that i am
0:27:45 in the father and the father is in me
0:27:47 but the same terminology is used eight
0:27:50 nine verses later in john chapter 14
0:27:52 verse 20
0:27:53 on that day you will realize that i am
0:27:55 in my father and you are in me and i am
0:27:57 in you so saying that to the disciples
0:27:59 so if that means that you're one
0:28:02 in in the physical sense or in the
0:28:03 literal sense or whatever other sense
0:28:05 that you wanted to make to be in order
0:28:07 to from the trinity
0:28:08 then the disciples also have to be part
0:28:10 of that trinity as well
0:28:13 the i am sayings of jesus
0:28:15 and this is i am just mentioned
0:28:17 uh obviously in exodus and they say well
0:28:19 because
0:28:21 it's mentioned i am in exodus i am means
0:28:24 uh i am god basically isn't one of the
0:28:26 words of god i am is the name of god so
0:28:28 exodus and this mentioned and john truly
0:28:30 i tell you jesus answered before abraham
0:28:32 i am
0:28:34 and uh and they say that this is
0:28:35 evidence that he's he's claiming to be
0:28:37 god
0:28:39 but this term
0:28:40 in uh
0:28:42 in the hebrew has been translated in a
0:28:44 way which would be i will be and it's
0:28:47 not only translated like that
0:28:49 in the understanding of many
0:28:50 translations it's also understood that
0:28:53 way by paul himself in the book of
0:28:55 hebrews
0:28:56 who mentions i will put my laws in their
0:28:58 minds
0:28:59 and write them out on their hearts i
0:29:02 will be
0:29:03 and i will be here ego am i or i am or
0:29:08 the so-called i am is exactly the same
0:29:10 terminology as jesus mentioned i am in
0:29:12 his previous statement so hebrews
0:29:14 chapter 8 verse 10.
0:29:17 i will be their gods and they will be my
0:29:19 people
0:29:20 so it's a translation
0:29:22 issue
0:29:25 so um the third the next thing is jesus
0:29:28 existence predates the birth of the
0:29:30 earth
0:29:32 verily i tell you jesus answered before
0:29:34 abraham i am and uh and now the father
0:29:36 glory
0:29:37 and now father glorify me in your
0:29:39 presence
0:29:41 with the glory i had
0:29:43 with you before the world began
0:29:46 but if you look at this verse it's
0:29:47 actually against them
0:29:49 if you look again in other verses the
0:29:51 lord brought me forth as the first of
0:29:53 his works before his deeds of the old
0:29:58 and before i formed you in the womb i
0:30:00 knew you before you were born i set you
0:30:02 apart i appointed you as the prophet of
0:30:04 nations
0:30:09 so if this was the case and this is
0:30:10 talking about you know jeremiah and
0:30:12 solomon by the way the same kind of
0:30:14 language that in the old testament now
0:30:16 god is speaking to jeremiah and solomon
0:30:17 so if if this is meant to be
0:30:20 indicating divinity then obviously
0:30:21 jeremiah and solomon are divine as well
0:30:23 but obviously
0:30:24 multisdick who had no beginning
0:30:27 uh would be divine as well now they say
0:30:30 george dick is jesus because they have
0:30:32 to try and find some explanation but
0:30:34 most scholars say this is absolutely uh
0:30:36 heretical to make that point and some of
0:30:38 the points about him he had no mother i
0:30:40 had no father i had no beginning of
0:30:41 knowing some things don't apply to jesus
0:30:44 by any means or any stretch of the
0:30:46 imagination
0:30:50 so i'm going to skip over some of these
0:30:52 ones here
0:30:54 um
0:30:57 another thing they say is that jesus
0:30:59 accepted a worship
0:31:01 and that for example uh
0:31:06 they say that
0:31:08 at this point this the servant fell to
0:31:10 his knees before him be patient with me
0:31:12 he begged and i i will pay you back
0:31:14 everything
0:31:15 in this parable and these kinds of
0:31:16 things but if you really look at them
0:31:20 the same kind of things that's happening
0:31:22 in the prostration all that kind of
0:31:23 things happen in the old testament
0:31:25 you're seeing that joseph's brothers
0:31:26 weren't prostrate so yeah are they
0:31:28 worshiping him
0:31:30 same kind of thing can be made and this
0:31:31 is not just the quran because we have
0:31:32 that in the quran but it's also in the
0:31:34 old testament
0:31:36 uh in in genesis chapter 42 verse number
0:31:38 six so these things that they classify
0:31:40 as worship and that he accepted as
0:31:42 worship all of the things that they
0:31:44 mention
0:31:44 can be shown practically all of them
0:31:47 that has been done with other people in
0:31:48 the old testament or the bible generally
0:31:50 speaking
0:31:54 and
0:31:57 another thing they mention is he having
0:31:59 the ability to forgive sins
0:32:03 he given the ability to forgive sins
0:32:05 with the permission of god
0:32:07 who where does it say he can
0:32:08 independently do that so they get why
0:32:10 does this
0:32:11 why does this fellow talk like that he's
0:32:13 blaspheming who can forgive sins by god
0:32:15 alone
0:32:16 if you forgive anyone's sins their sins
0:32:18 are forgiven if you do not forgive them
0:32:20 they are not forgiven
0:32:22 so this is
0:32:24 god grants the authority of people to be
0:32:26 able to do these things no problem
0:32:31 and obviously you know the miracles
0:32:33 they'll say look he can raise the dead
0:32:35 and but once again he did that with
0:32:37 god's permission so the quran answers
0:32:38 this
0:32:40 you know he did this with god's
0:32:42 permission now how does that make him
0:32:43 divine and we have to go back to what
0:32:45 the definitions of divinity is because
0:32:47 the definition of divinity is not you
0:32:48 can do miracles because if that was the
0:32:50 case then moses would be the biggest
0:32:51 i mean he did miracles right and they
0:32:53 believe it and we believe it
0:33:03 and there are other things i mean
0:33:07 the alpha and the omega but we kind of
0:33:09 covered that with the whole uh
0:33:10 pre-eternality and post-eternality
0:33:14 um
0:33:17 the the hymns
0:33:20 like the philippians uh him and stuff
0:33:22 like that
0:33:23 corinthians was corinthians what is it
0:33:25 proof okay paul believed that
0:33:28 uh jesus was god or he had divinity or
0:33:30 whatever it was and once again we don't
0:33:31 care about that
0:33:33 in fact
0:33:34 that doesn't go against
0:33:36 our belief system
0:33:48 and in order to try and prove the
0:33:50 trinity they sometimes bring the verse
0:33:51 of matthew chapter 28 verse 19.
0:33:53 therefore go and make this uh disciples
0:33:55 of all nations baptizing them in the
0:33:57 name of the father and the holy spirit
0:33:58 where you have this formulation father
0:34:00 son and holy spirit but by the way this
0:34:02 formulation is not the only formulation
0:34:04 you have the father the son and the holy
0:34:06 angels you have different formulations
0:34:07 in the bible right so
0:34:09 they've picked that one
0:34:10 and it doesn't say that these fathers
0:34:12 and holy spirit are gods and that
0:34:14 they're all co-equal and co-eternal
0:34:16 you see so they'll bring oh it does
0:34:17 mention the truth in the bible look it
0:34:19 says go and baptize in the way the
0:34:20 father doesn't holy spirit but it
0:34:21 doesn't say that these three are the
0:34:22 three co equal and co eternal
0:34:25 and if it was meant to be
0:34:27 that this is indicating the trinity then
0:34:29 what about all these other you know kind
0:34:31 of
0:34:32 triune formulations where it's not the
0:34:34 holy spirit being mentioned but
0:34:35 something else like the holy angels or
0:34:36 something like that so why not make that
0:34:38 the trinity you see so it's selective
0:34:40 and it's called i see jesus when you try
0:34:42 and prove or you try and put something
0:34:45 onto
0:34:46 the text rather than try and extract it
0:34:47 from it which is exegesis because they
0:34:49 have this preconceived understanding of
0:34:51 what the trinity is based on what we
0:34:52 said the historical aspect so they try
0:34:54 and force it into the bible
0:34:58 um
0:35:03 the sea wells is there anything there
0:35:05 are other things i'm skipping here but
0:35:06 i'm just i'm from my own experience i'm
0:35:08 telling you which ones are which are
0:35:10 going to be used the most and i think
0:35:12 the ones that we we have covered
0:35:14 are the ones that are probably more
0:35:15 likely to be used the most there are
0:35:16 other things but a lot of them come from
0:35:18 the books of paul and we have the answer
0:35:20 for that which who cares if paul
0:35:22 believed that it's once again
0:35:25 it doesn't
0:35:26 matter but once again for more
0:35:27 information you can go to the trinity
0:35:29 toolkit online free of charge by amazon
0:35:31 career and of course you can download
0:35:33 this fantastic book
0:35:34 uh which
0:35:36 has been downloaded uh i think hundreds
0:35:37 of thousands of times now and has been
0:35:39 distributed maybe even more than that
0:35:41 and so it's free of charge make sure you
0:35:43 have that and hopefully that answers the
0:35:44 questions but i will say one more thing
0:35:46 before we go
0:35:47 in on the offensive side there are three
0:35:50 verses only and no i'm not trying to
0:35:52 create some kind of triune
0:35:53 situation here which i would like you to
0:35:56 to be aware of which i think are under
0:35:58 cutters really they are undercutters
0:36:00 one of them is the shema
0:36:02 shema is
0:36:04 you know chapter six verse number four
0:36:05 of deuteronomy that hero israel your
0:36:07 lord our lord is one god
0:36:10 the the shama and all of the other
0:36:12 things that are mentioned in the old
0:36:13 testament relating to the oneness of god
0:36:16 is such a clear-cut argument for
0:36:18 monotheism and anti-triune nature
0:36:21 the fact that jews for thousands of
0:36:24 years before christianity believed in
0:36:26 one god that abraham believed in one god
0:36:28 that moses and jesus as you were
0:36:30 mentioning believe the one god is the
0:36:31 chronic argument
0:36:38 that abraham was not a jew or a
0:36:39 christian how could he be
0:36:41 before judah was even which judaism is
0:36:44 named after or before christ
0:36:47 abraham was there you know how could he
0:36:49 be a follower of christ how could he be
0:36:51 a christian when he was before he
0:36:52 predated him he predated christ he can't
0:36:54 be a follower of christ
0:36:56 so what was the religion of abraham what
0:36:58 was the religion of moses what was it
0:36:59 what was the religion of noah the
0:37:01 religion of these people
0:37:03 these great prophets and messengers was
0:37:05 not
0:37:06 christianity it could not be it could
0:37:08 not be trinity and the jews did not
0:37:10 understand the old testament torah the
0:37:12 tanach
0:37:14 they didn't understand that stuff as
0:37:16 calling to this kind of a trinity so how
0:37:17 could it be that we for all these years
0:37:19 didn't know anything about
0:37:21 and now it's after the development the
0:37:22 roman developments
0:37:24 the roman empire made their developments
0:37:25 and all these kind of things as we've
0:37:26 just mentioned
0:37:28 now it's become the trinity that we have
0:37:29 to believe
0:37:31 it's too unreal for anyone to really
0:37:33 take seriously with these with this
0:37:35 information so the first thing is i
0:37:37 would mention the old testament and the
0:37:38 other one is chapter number 17 verse
0:37:40 number three which i'm going to read out
0:37:41 to you okay uh this was such a troubling
0:37:44 verse that augustine himself one of the
0:37:46 great church scholars tried to
0:37:47 manipulate the verse he actually tries
0:37:49 to play this verse
0:37:51 now this is eternal life that they know
0:37:53 you the only true god and jesus christ
0:37:55 whom you have sent so it's
0:37:56 differentiating you the true god from
0:37:58 jesus christ what you do is almost a
0:38:00 shahadah
0:38:01 here it's like
0:38:03 it's almost like um the the shahada but
0:38:05 inverted but with jesus as the
0:38:07 the subject rather than the prophet
0:38:08 muhammad it's time he was the prophet to
0:38:10 be followed
0:38:12 which is
0:38:13 there's only one true god and jesus is
0:38:15 his messenger he's been sent because
0:38:17 someone has been said it's a messenger
0:38:19 so there's only one true god in jesus
0:38:20 messenger it's mentioned there in the
0:38:21 bible it was such a problem
0:38:23 for christine believed that augustine
0:38:25 himself tried to manipulate
0:38:27 the verse and change it
0:38:30 and and this verse which i mentioned
0:38:31 already which is mark chapter number 13
0:38:33 verse number 32
0:38:35 where it says but as
0:38:36 about that day
0:38:38 or hour no one knows but not uh not even
0:38:41 the angels in heaven nor the son but
0:38:42 only the father only the father knows it
0:38:45 now as we've mentioned before when you
0:38:47 mentioned how come you know how comes
0:38:49 jesus didn't know the fig tree that
0:38:52 they'll say well jesus had two natures
0:38:53 he had the human nature and he had the
0:38:54 godly nature
0:38:56 but the truth is you can't say that
0:38:57 about the holy spirit and so when you
0:38:59 talk about mark chapter 13 verse number
0:39:00 32
0:39:02 where it disqualifies the holy spirit
0:39:03 from being able to know the hour this
0:39:05 makes the holy spirit also ignorant in
0:39:08 that sense doesn't have all the
0:39:09 knowledge therefore how could an
0:39:11 ignorant one be all-knowing
0:39:13 and if it's not all knowing how can we
0:39:14 all uh equal
0:39:16 equal to the father or god
0:39:19 and so with all of these other three
0:39:21 verses i would use i mean these are i
0:39:22 think the undercutting verses the very
0:39:24 powerful ones one in the old testament
0:39:26 and two in the new testament i think
0:39:27 that's all we need so look this is what
0:39:29 we believe in you know
0:39:31 and all of the verses that they're
0:39:32 coming with
0:39:33 can easily be explained and uh if
0:39:37 if they are quite uh
0:39:39 unambiguous they're coming from john or
0:39:40 paul or something like that
0:39:42 and therefore we say
0:39:44 they have a high christology for a
0:39:45 reason because of development
0:39:47 of christianity and the pagan influence
0:39:50 quite frankly
0:39:51 by these people who we believe corrupted
0:39:53 the religion and hopefully that answers
0:39:55 the questions that people may have and
0:39:57 gives you tools
0:39:58 uh to be able to deal with this uh this
0:40:00 issue obviously christianity is a big
0:40:02 religion in the world i want to have the
0:40:04 answers for it but a lot has been done
0:40:06 uh with christianity
0:40:11 lots of good things have been done so we
0:40:12 say
0:40:13 uh if one wants to kind of see the
0:40:16 debates that have happened the last 20
0:40:17 30 years obviously no one knows where to
0:40:19 go
0:40:20 was
0:41:12 you