Current Condition of Muslims | Mohammed Hijab (2022-11-08) ​

0:00:00 oh
0:00:15 foreign
0:00:18 and Welcome to our fourth session now we
0:00:21 are transitioning into some uh some
0:00:23 topics that relate to Sociology let's
0:00:25 call it or even politics and what we're
0:00:28 going to be doing is looking at some of
0:00:29 the arguments that are made usually
0:00:31 against uh Muslim people or Islam in
0:00:33 general and those two things are not
0:00:35 mutually exclusive like for example
0:00:38 you'll find that a lot of people
0:00:40 especially on the alt right or the right
0:00:41 wing or neoconservative
0:00:44 um you know contingents they would say
0:00:47 something like
0:00:49 if Islam is true or if you have all the
0:00:51 answers and how comes you know your
0:00:53 countries have XYZ problems in them
0:00:56 um or how comes uh you know there are
0:00:59 not Nobel Peace Prize winners that are
0:01:00 Muslims in fact interesting I think
0:01:02 Richard Dawkins made this argument you
0:01:04 know how many normal Peace Prize one is
0:01:07 uh are Muslim so therefore this shows
0:01:12 you that the state of Islam or Islam is
0:01:14 weak and doesn't give us any solutions
0:01:17 these kinds of things
0:01:19 so we're looking at that today
0:01:22 first of all let's let's go with that
0:01:24 let's ask let's get you guys involved
0:01:25 from the beginning
0:01:27 if you walk in front of someone and it
0:01:29 says to you look if you you're trying to
0:01:31 sell us Islam but if Islam was so good
0:01:33 why is it that we find that most of the
0:01:37 economic potential
0:01:38 of the Muslim countries is not on par
0:01:42 with that which we find for example in
0:01:43 the west uh why is it that we don't find
0:01:46 that there's Noble Peace Prize winners
0:01:48 uh are Muslims or Noble winners that are
0:01:51 Muslims comparative to say for example
0:01:53 atheists who are overrepresented or
0:01:55 presented in this thing how would you
0:01:59 answer these kinds of interrogations
0:02:01 would you want a bit of time to think
0:02:02 about it or would you yeah I mean first
0:02:04 of all is that a question is like an
0:02:07 orientalist question is yeah you know
0:02:10 what what is the Nobel Prize uh you know
0:02:12 that's a particular way of it's just a
0:02:15 science prize I understand that but
0:02:17 you know what it's it's not you know
0:02:21 reflective of of everything you know I
0:02:25 mean I don't see why it should be held
0:02:26 to such a high degree exactly Yeah in
0:02:29 our communities or something yeah we
0:02:31 have other paradigms that we can use to
0:02:33 to gauge success and stuff like that so
0:02:36 I think that's powerful we say that
0:02:38 gauging success we're not just using you
0:02:41 know these uh barometers if you like of
0:02:44 uh measurement
0:02:46 uh what else would you add the idea for
0:02:48 example hi RX said like the normal piece
0:02:49 was not a measure of success it's always
0:02:51 an economic to a certain extent like to
0:02:54 be financially or uh maturely wealthy
0:02:57 doesn't necessarily mean you have
0:02:59 success in essence householders so we
0:03:02 would say as Muslims yeah and if you
0:03:04 like have that spiritual connection with
0:03:06 God you follow the way of the Prophet
0:03:08 saws that is what is the measure of
0:03:10 success and is it even fair to say that
0:03:13 um comparative with non-muslim countries
0:03:17 for example Western countries liberal
0:03:19 countries countries which adopt human
0:03:21 rights countries of State liberalism or
0:03:23 secularism whatever it may be those
0:03:26 countries have a higher propensity to
0:03:29 overperform economically comparative to
0:03:31 Muslim ones
0:03:33 depend on the the metric that you're
0:03:36 using to measure so if some some reduce
0:03:40 like happiness index someone else might
0:03:42 say raw GDP someone else might say GDP
0:03:44 per capita okay well let's let's use any
0:03:46 of those for example let's use GDP per
0:03:48 capita gni a happier the happy index
0:03:51 which is a combination of different like
0:03:53 HDI and life expectancy and all these
0:03:55 kind of things okay so even if we do
0:03:58 that what we gonna find like he got you
0:04:02 got company you got countries like Japan
0:04:05 who are incredibly successful
0:04:08 um you know economically but socially
0:04:12 they're suffering I mean there's cases
0:04:14 of people who don't uh they spend their
0:04:16 lives not developing uh relationships
0:04:20 with other people and you know they like
0:04:23 you've got the rent a friend phenomenon
0:04:25 in Japan yeah yeah so all the economic
0:04:28 success in the world it can't literally
0:04:30 buy you happiness in that sense yeah and
0:04:33 you know you've got all other kinds of
0:04:35 social problems suicide and stuff like
0:04:37 that Within These countries yeah so it
0:04:39 doesn't and and going back to so there's
0:04:42 some really interesting points you're
0:04:44 mentioning there and I think it's
0:04:46 important to note that when if if
0:04:48 happiness in the happy index comes up in
0:04:50 a discussion
0:04:52 just because the country has a high
0:04:54 score
0:04:55 in terms of the happy index it doesn't
0:04:56 mean the inhabitants are happy by the
0:04:58 way because the happy index I haven't
0:05:00 got the exact way they measure it in the
0:05:03 first place but the happy index it
0:05:06 doesn't do a psychological study on how
0:05:09 people actually feel they don't go and
0:05:11 ask people how do you feel when they
0:05:13 look at things like the human
0:05:15 development index the life expectancy
0:05:16 education all these kind of things and
0:05:18 the assumption is if those things are
0:05:20 high then people are more happy
0:05:23 now is this assumption uh fully
0:05:26 Justified partially Justified not
0:05:28 justified at all what do you guys think
0:05:31 I think there's also a thing here where
0:05:32 they assuming the happiness is the main
0:05:33 purpose in life that's what one should
0:05:36 seek but there's many things that you
0:05:40 could say are better than happiness okay
0:05:41 it's like there's like a saying like a
0:05:44 depressed Socrates is better than like a
0:05:46 satisfied full so you know you could be
0:05:49 like you know fulfilled in all your best
0:05:51 desires that doesn't necessarily mean it
0:05:53 might be happily in this in the terms of
0:05:55 pleasure but happiness as a whole you
0:05:57 might not be more happy or to be things
0:05:59 better than I press that contentment
0:06:01 stuff like that so yeah I think there's
0:06:04 lots of good things that people are
0:06:05 saying so let's take each one at a time
0:06:07 I think we need to go back to what
0:06:09 you're saying here because it's very
0:06:10 important that this assumes that
0:06:11 happiness is the ultimate purpose of
0:06:13 life that's an important point but back
0:06:15 to the point of Economic Development
0:06:17 indicators yeah
0:06:19 um there are many indicators as many of
0:06:22 you have studied economics in the past
0:06:23 or something like that would have known
0:06:25 uh or would know which is like for
0:06:27 example the the GDP of a country it's
0:06:29 basically the gross domestic product how
0:06:31 much a country has inside of how much
0:06:33 money has inside of but they have things
0:06:35 like gni which is the gross gross
0:06:38 national index and then the GDP per
0:06:40 capita how much on average
0:06:43 each person gets this is like a mean
0:06:45 they get the you know the average salary
0:06:47 divided by the amount of people now
0:06:49 whatever like you know in the country
0:06:53 and actually it's a misconception to
0:06:55 think that countries which have adopted
0:06:57 or had been uh you know
0:07:01 or started as liberal countries and so
0:07:03 on
0:07:04 uh more likely
0:07:07 historically all contemporaneously to
0:07:09 have a higher economic output and the
0:07:11 reason why you mentioned Japan Japan
0:07:13 actually is not it's not a liberal
0:07:15 country in the same way as the United
0:07:17 States of America is it's not secular in
0:07:19 the same way as the United States of
0:07:20 America is it doesn't have the same
0:07:23 culture as the United States of America
0:07:24 doesn't have human rights the way the
0:07:26 Americans have it for example all the um
0:07:28 the French have it or whatever so Japan
0:07:31 is a counter example to this idea if you
0:07:34 think of it from that perspective
0:07:35 another thing is
0:07:37 actually there are countries which have
0:07:39 uh African countries and Latin American
0:07:42 countries okay both sub-Saharan Africa
0:07:45 and Latin American countries which are
0:07:47 not Muslim majority
0:07:49 okay especially in Latin America there's
0:07:52 no muslim majority country there let me
0:07:54 could even say there's no country with a
0:07:56 Muslim a significant Muslim output there
0:07:59 but which function on the same kind of
0:08:01 level as a from a GDP GDP per capita gni
0:08:05 all that stuff as Middle Eastern
0:08:06 countries
0:08:07 so for example there's about 17
0:08:09 countries Latin America maybe I'm not
0:08:11 gay but you can correct me if I'm wrong
0:08:13 of the 17 countries in Latin America
0:08:15 compare them with the I don't know x
0:08:16 amount of countries in the Middle East
0:08:17 or North Africa you'll find there's a
0:08:20 lot of similarities in terms of the
0:08:21 economic output
0:08:23 sometimes it underperforms and in terms
0:08:26 of crime certain countries in Latin
0:08:28 America are way above Mexico being no
0:08:31 you know a serious example they go to
0:08:34 Morocco and then go to Mexico and tell
0:08:36 me which one is safer you know so this
0:08:39 is uh one thing
0:08:41 the other thing is that Latin America
0:08:43 has adopted
0:08:45 to a large extent liberal policies
0:08:48 secular secularist principles a lot of
0:08:51 them have not all the countries there
0:08:52 but a lot of the countries have that
0:08:54 it's not they're not based on religion I
0:08:55 mean it's not Islam there
0:08:57 what let me ask you this question what
0:09:00 is in common with Latin America and the
0:09:03 Middle East and sub-Saharan Africa I'll
0:09:04 be positive
0:09:07 they're very ready okay fine so there is
0:09:10 religion but there's something I'm
0:09:11 looking at here because
0:09:12 if we're looking at full transmit
0:09:14 cause-based arguments there's something
0:09:15 which is in common with all these three
0:09:17 regions
0:09:19 huh
0:09:20 I would say they're not white enough
0:09:23 yeah well I mean it seems like that yeah
0:09:26 you know in that you know in the sense
0:09:28 that the the white man has taken uh a
0:09:32 lot of the you know the economic
0:09:33 potential but I think you're onto
0:09:34 something
0:09:35 what is that keyword beginning with C
0:09:37 here
0:09:39 colonialism so what is in common between
0:09:43 Latin America and the Middle East is
0:09:45 both were
0:09:46 both have just come out of colonialism
0:09:50 now I I think this is not really taken
0:09:52 we don't consider
0:09:55 the extent to which colonialism has
0:09:57 actually had an impact
0:09:59 on these regions because if you think
0:10:02 about it if you have a country in
0:10:06 sub-Saharan Africa North Africa in the
0:10:07 Middle East Latin America which has
0:10:10 suffered 200 years of colonialism 200
0:10:13 years maybe 300 years depending on which
0:10:15 country we're looking at yeah
0:10:17 do you really expect it to come out
0:10:19 it's newly independent so-called
0:10:21 independent country
0:10:22 and not be playing catch up
0:10:26 it's it's resources were being
0:10:28 extrapolated for 200 for two centuries
0:10:30 or more than that
0:10:32 there were people that their Roots were
0:10:34 being destroyed look at the case of
0:10:35 Algeria for example it was annexed into
0:10:38 another country
0:10:39 people were being raped and killed and
0:10:41 all these kinds of things
0:10:45 the Spanish colonialism was the one of
0:10:48 the bloodiest
0:10:49 things that have ever happened in
0:10:51 history
0:10:52 in Latin America
0:10:55 it's one of the bloodiest things that's
0:10:56 ever happened
0:10:57 now you're going to tell me that these
0:10:59 countries after this colonial
0:11:01 overstay from
0:11:03 that this is going to come out 50 years
0:11:06 70 years and that's it they're going to
0:11:08 play complete catch-up
0:11:09 that's what's in common I mean you can
0:11:12 easily make a stronger argument
0:11:14 that that which is in common
0:11:17 in terms of causation and it has a you
0:11:19 know direct effect on people now is
0:11:21 colonialism not religion
0:11:24 however they're still controlled by by
0:11:27 the colonies most of them maybe not
0:11:30 directly indirectly yeah I will look at
0:11:32 for example for the French uh influence
0:11:35 on North North Africa
0:11:37 and especially like Mali and these kinds
0:11:40 of countries uh Spain I mean there are
0:11:43 there are some parts of Morocco which
0:11:45 Spain still controls I'm not sure if
0:11:47 anyone knows this except time in other
0:11:49 countries
0:11:50 yeah these are these are cities Spanish
0:11:54 cities inside of Morocco
0:11:56 so you're driving around your car you're
0:11:57 literally going and there's these are
0:11:59 the Spanish States inside of inside of
0:12:01 Morocco
0:12:02 and and if you look inside it they've
0:12:04 got in many cases they've got better
0:12:06 resources in there
0:12:08 so huge have you been there before
0:12:10 you've been told yeah I've heard that as
0:12:12 well you know I've never been there
0:12:13 before myself but I thought it's a major
0:12:15 difference
0:12:16 but this is what we're talking about a
0:12:18 major development here but
0:12:22 another thing is that
0:12:25 there are countries which are Muslim
0:12:27 Muslim countries of there's 196
0:12:30 countries in the world okay 196 196 of
0:12:33 them about 59 are Muslim majority which
0:12:36 is a significant number
0:12:37 and of those countries there are
0:12:39 countries which are in the top 10 of GDP
0:12:41 per capita which are Muslim Brunei is
0:12:44 there Saudi Arabia is there you'll say
0:12:48 oh that's because of the resources
0:12:50 yeah it is because of the resources no
0:12:52 doubt about it no issues that's part of
0:12:55 the reason but a lot of the reason why
0:12:57 some other countries like Iran and like
0:13:00 turkey
0:13:01 have maintained a strong economy and
0:13:04 strong militaries and strong presence is
0:13:06 because they haven't been colonized
0:13:09 it's no coincidence that Saudi Arabia
0:13:11 turkey
0:13:13 and Iran
0:13:15 are three of the strongest Muslim
0:13:16 countries in the Muslim world right now
0:13:18 because they haven't been colonized
0:13:20 Iran wasn't colonized
0:13:22 turkey wasn't colonized
0:13:25 and neither was Saudi Arabia
0:13:27 and look they maintain a level of
0:13:29 economic Integrity which the other
0:13:31 Muslim countries don't have there are
0:13:33 other countries like Malaysia Indonesia
0:13:36 you know
0:13:37 um which are doing very well
0:13:39 pound for pound they do very well and
0:13:41 they were colonized
0:13:43 so that is actually very impressive
0:13:45 considering the circumstances what
0:13:46 Malaysia's been able to do economically
0:13:48 considering the circumstances very very
0:13:50 impressive so this idea that well if you
0:13:52 put religion in or take it out
0:13:55 religion is a reason why
0:13:58 is is a foolish idea especially
0:14:00 considering
0:14:02 there were times so this is the
0:14:03 Contemporary argument but there were
0:14:05 times in human history
0:14:07 where for example the Ottoman Empire was
0:14:11 doing much better than the European
0:14:13 rival
0:14:14 there were times there were times in
0:14:16 history where African African Muslim
0:14:18 countries
0:14:19 like the Mali Empire was doing better
0:14:21 than European rivals
0:14:30 before there was Asian
0:14:31 Middle East and and what what events I
0:14:35 think we've covered this maybe we've
0:14:37 covered this before but what events have
0:14:38 taken place in in European history which
0:14:41 has made that which have made the case
0:14:44 this government of America yeah
0:14:49 that's a big one so the age of Discovery
0:14:51 yeah and then after that even even after
0:14:54 that it was mostly adults in Spain you
0:14:56 know Spanish colonization and then all
0:14:59 the all the gold and all the resources
0:15:02 that they brought from from the Americas
0:15:03 and they said they all around Europe and
0:15:06 then Africa
0:15:09 colonized Asia that's when really yeah
0:15:12 that's when they made a name for
0:15:13 themselves right and that's that's a
0:15:15 major difference between especially if
0:15:17 you're considering that mentioned this
0:15:18 point before and I think it's it's worth
0:15:20 mentioning again this is a major
0:15:22 difference between how Islam expanded
0:15:25 and how for example the European
0:15:27 countries expanded because there are
0:15:29 some will watch and say oh you're
0:15:30 talking about colonialism more about
0:15:31 Islam one Islam spread especially in the
0:15:34 early days
0:15:35 the resources for example that were in
0:15:37 Egypt or in Yemen or wherever Islam
0:15:39 spread to stayed in those countries they
0:15:42 didn't go back to the Mecca
0:15:45 whereas with European colonialism
0:15:48 the resources that were extracted went
0:15:50 back to London or went back to wherever
0:15:51 it was
0:15:52 that's a major difference by the way
0:15:55 so the main the the resources stayed in
0:15:59 the land people's houses were not taken
0:16:01 away from them let alone their person
0:16:04 like in the case of transatlantic slave
0:16:06 trade
0:16:07 they weren't forcibly moved around like
0:16:10 that
0:16:11 if there was slavery it usually stayed
0:16:13 within its own borders and if it didn't
0:16:17 it existed before there wasn't an
0:16:19 attempt to say well we're on a
0:16:21 civilizing mission we need to get these
0:16:22 race of people to go there
0:16:24 so there are major differences between
0:16:27 how Europeans expanded versus how Islam
0:16:32 expanded in the early days especially
0:16:33 yeah
0:16:35 um another thing I'll say is
0:16:37 um yeah
0:16:40 if you if you took no if you took over
0:16:42 nowadays it's probably the biggest
0:16:44 reason why this country has done success
0:16:46 it's not because they don't want to
0:16:48 succeed or they don't have their
0:16:49 capabilities it's because they're not
0:16:52 lit they're not it's not in their
0:16:55 interests in with some interest to let
0:16:58 this country success like Africa Africa
0:17:01 when was colonizes colonizes and then
0:17:04 after divided it was divided in certain
0:17:06 ways so you have a group of different
0:17:09 ethnicities divided into
0:17:11 in different countries which created
0:17:13 conflicts and even now uh one can argue
0:17:17 that they
0:17:19 they create conflicts so countries stay
0:17:22 in the in those
0:17:24 in those Wars and they never get to grow
0:17:28 the best the best example is I recently
0:17:31 Pakistan when there was this prime
0:17:34 minister
0:17:34 and because he went Olivia Libya I think
0:17:37 Gaddafi it was one of the biggest
0:17:40 examples when he wanted to create his
0:17:41 own currency and what to create the
0:17:44 African Africa to become something like
0:17:48 Europe and I think it was very obvious
0:17:51 like that was going to it against her
0:17:54 against with Western agenda so yeah and
0:17:59 you mentioned a good point when you said
0:18:00 okay so it was the age of Discovery uh
0:18:03 there's three or four events which I
0:18:04 think is very important people to know
0:18:06 does the age of discovery which took
0:18:07 place let's say 17th century yeah
0:18:10 like 1600s
0:18:12 in this country was Elizabeth the first
0:18:14 who who kind of
0:18:16 popularized the notion and
0:18:18 she sent off the different people to go
0:18:21 and stuff like that and then after that
0:18:23 then you had the Scientific Revolution
0:18:25 this is the second thing which many
0:18:27 people we must know about this time
0:18:30 and the one of the main reasons why
0:18:33 there was a scientific revolution
0:18:35 was because
0:18:37 um
0:18:39 they wanted
0:18:41 they want for ballistic missiles and
0:18:43 Armory and guns and all these kind of
0:18:46 things in fact behind you there are
0:18:48 books yeah you can see this book
0:18:50 somewhere we can get me one of them one
0:18:52 of them says natural natural philosophy
0:18:54 or natural philosophy can you see one of
0:18:55 those you can see yes in this in that
0:18:57 section one of those it's a whole book
0:18:59 it says natural philosophy
0:19:02 yeah
0:19:04 uh explain this to you if I get if I get
0:19:07 it but science was called natural
0:19:10 philosophy it wasn't called science
0:19:13 okay I see that maybe it's a little
0:19:15 small book it's called natural
0:19:16 philosophy or something like that
0:19:18 you got it yeah is that yeah look at
0:19:20 that very nice book and then kill me if
0:19:23 you see it I'm doing this and then she's
0:19:26 collection here don't worry I'm handling
0:19:27 it was a great care as you can see here
0:19:29 it says natural philosophy okay this is
0:19:32 a book I I would presume this this book
0:19:34 has probably been written somewhere in
0:19:36 the in the 16th uh sorry in the 17th
0:19:39 century right let me open it up and see
0:19:41 yes oh actually sorry no this is uh well
0:19:43 after in fact they were even calling it
0:19:45 this 1827s this this might have been the
0:19:49 third print or something but
0:19:50 nevertheless if you can if you open it
0:19:53 up and you look at this natural
0:19:54 philosophy for example it says here on
0:19:57 the laws of motion on the attraction of
0:19:59 gravity
0:20:00 uh on Optics
0:20:02 and then on Springs and fountains
0:20:05 um mnemonics
0:20:07 you know uh the structure of the eye and
0:20:10 so on this is one book it's meant to
0:20:13 have all the
0:20:15 all of the things inside of it
0:20:19 back in the days they used to call this
0:20:20 in the in our tradition
0:20:24 not even our tradition Christians have
0:20:26 this as well as they call it summer a
0:20:28 summer
0:20:29 a summer was a book which control
0:20:30 contained all the things inside of it so
0:20:33 it contained logic in there it contains
0:20:35 science in there this is what it looks
0:20:36 like
0:20:37 it contains science in that it contained
0:20:40 um
0:20:40 uh religion in there so it was meant to
0:20:43 be like almost excitopedic
0:20:45 but in the Scientific Revolution
0:20:48 they started specializing in dividing so
0:20:51 science became its own subject matter
0:20:53 and so you had like physics and
0:20:54 chemistry and all these things now this
0:20:57 really took place in the UK again
0:20:59 it was
0:21:01 the reason why was engineering purposes
0:21:04 they wanted to engineer guns and all
0:21:05 these kind of things so you have first
0:21:07 at the age of Discovery then you have
0:21:09 Scientific Revolution
0:21:11 and then you have the Industrial
0:21:13 Revolution
0:21:15 the industrial and now we're going into
0:21:16 the 19th century yeah now with the
0:21:19 Industrial Revolution
0:21:20 that's when you have steam trains I'm
0:21:22 sure you guys have seen and once again
0:21:24 it's in the UK
0:21:25 but the part of the reason why it was
0:21:28 happened in the UK is because some of
0:21:30 the natural resources that were required
0:21:32 like coal and stuff only existed here in
0:21:34 the UK
0:21:35 so these events that took place the age
0:21:38 of Discovery the scientific Scientific
0:21:40 Revolution the Industrial Revolution put
0:21:43 the West in a very special position
0:21:45 especially comparative to its Rivals the
0:21:48 Ottoman Empire wasn't developing fastly
0:21:50 enough and especially technologically
0:21:52 and stuff it was not developing as fast
0:21:55 as the other you know rivals
0:21:58 that's why the ultimate Empire used to
0:22:00 have many wars with the Russians and the
0:22:02 beginning they were winning all these
0:22:03 wars and then afterwards you see that
0:22:05 they started losing the wars because
0:22:06 they weren't keeping up technologically
0:22:08 so one of the biggest especially the
0:22:10 printing press
0:22:12 you know we're going back to like 17th
0:22:14 century or something yeah 16th 17th
0:22:16 century with the with the pr with the
0:22:18 printing press and technological
0:22:19 developments they
0:22:21 there was no catch up and then you had
0:22:23 divide and conquer and you know
0:22:25 tribalism and nationalism within the
0:22:27 Muslims which led to infighting and then
0:22:31 now we're in a specific space in history
0:22:36 which the Western hemisphere is in
0:22:39 control
0:22:41 you know Western Europe has extensions
0:22:44 but if you consider
0:22:46 most Russians don't consider themselves
0:22:47 as part of the West
0:22:50 and if you divide Russia from Western
0:22:53 Europe and its extensions on the America
0:22:58 actually it's a little bit more
0:23:00 complicated than that because then we
0:23:02 will say when did the superpower reign
0:23:05 of the Knights of America begin
0:23:06 somewhere in 91 31 years ago or
0:23:10 something like this why because that was
0:23:12 the end of the Cold War
0:23:13 that was the end of the Cold War
0:23:15 and so that's what before you had a
0:23:17 professional international relations as
0:23:19 a bipolar system
0:23:21 I don't know how the Cold War from was
0:23:22 it 40 years or something how 40
0:23:24 something years and in that time you had
0:23:27 two great Powers Financial now really
0:23:29 have one great power and these other
0:23:32 competitors that are vying for
0:23:34 uh superpower status
0:23:38 so that's that's the history of how we
0:23:40 got to where we are talking with those
0:23:41 Wars you know during the wars you have
0:23:44 the best you come with the best
0:23:46 inventions with the the best
0:23:50 you create the best things like because
0:23:52 of I would argue because of this first
0:23:54 and second world war we had cars and
0:23:57 planes and better cars and better planes
0:23:59 and better and all kinds of technology
0:24:00 and that's why this is It's a good point
0:24:03 technological developments really took a
0:24:06 the The
0:24:07 Accelerated and was especially World War
0:24:10 one and World War II
0:24:11 because necessity is the mother of all
0:24:13 invention
0:24:15 okay so now we know what the world how
0:24:18 it got to where it is and it was very
0:24:20 simplistic but
0:24:21 the the notion therefore that Islam
0:24:23 where Islam is you know you don't find
0:24:25 as much economic uh you know things
0:24:28 going on we can see how weak this is
0:24:31 because it's it's trying to put
0:24:33 correlation and causation it's trying to
0:24:35 create a fake link between correlation
0:24:37 and causation that link doesn't actually
0:24:39 exist especially if we look at history
0:24:41 yeah all right so what we're going to be
0:24:45 doing today is we're going to be looking
0:24:46 at
0:24:47 a book that was written by someone
0:24:49 called now this might take one or two
0:24:51 sessions
0:24:53 the book is called
0:24:54 The Impossible state
0:24:56 okay well halakh is not Muslim he's I
0:24:58 think he's a Christian
0:25:01 um and this book became very very
0:25:03 especially in academic circles it became
0:25:05 very
0:25:06 uh important in fact
0:25:09 I'll tell you something interesting
0:25:10 though there was a guy called avocatada
0:25:13 you know the accused of terrorism there
0:25:15 was a huge bid
0:25:17 and I think this might be misattributed
0:25:19 to him
0:25:20 the person who understood my book
0:25:23 really understood it was avocado I don't
0:25:26 know what we wanted to make out of that
0:25:28 but it's interesting
0:25:29 basically one of the things that was is
0:25:31 that the Islamic State judged by any
0:25:34 standard definition of what a modern
0:25:36 State represents is both impossible and
0:25:38 inherently self-contradictory
0:25:40 now why does he say that
0:25:43 I'm going to tell you why he says that
0:25:45 the argument he makes is that basically
0:25:48 the Sharia and the modern State both of
0:25:51 those two things together are
0:25:52 contradictions in terms
0:25:54 he says that the modern state is taken
0:25:56 for granted by Leading intellectuals and
0:25:58 islamists and by that he means people
0:26:00 like the Muslim Brotherhood and those
0:26:01 who want to engage the political process
0:26:04 the Muslim world is colored by
0:26:05 postcolonial realities which we just
0:26:07 explained yeah
0:26:10 so let me explain some more it says that
0:26:14 first of all he speaks about the concept
0:26:16 of the citizen
0:26:18 what is this idea of a citizen so
0:26:20 nowadays like football British citizens
0:26:23 I hope I mean some of us I should say
0:26:28 yeah yeah others are still you know
0:26:30 waiting for the papers or whatever you
0:26:32 know
0:26:34 but when we're gonna say a modern State
0:26:36 you get preferential no one speaks of
0:26:39 discrimination
0:26:41 if this is very interesting and the
0:26:43 basic point but just think of it for a
0:26:45 second
0:26:46 no one speaks of discrimination as a
0:26:49 relation to citizenship so for example I
0:26:51 go to an airport and it says like
0:26:53 you know if you have a bridge passport
0:26:55 go on this line any other possible go
0:26:57 here
0:26:58 no one says this is an act of
0:26:59 discrimination
0:27:01 do you see the point so if I have a
0:27:03 British passport come on this line
0:27:05 and me I always have to go on the other
0:27:07 line anyway
0:27:08 but you know if you have any other you
0:27:10 EU passport would have gone the other
0:27:11 line
0:27:12 or if you're in Spain or any other
0:27:15 country the whole thing is if you have
0:27:17 to get a visa to go into the other
0:27:18 country
0:27:20 no one says well why do we why do we
0:27:21 have to be treated like
0:27:24 second class people they there's always
0:27:28 there's only a discussion about setting
0:27:29 class citizens but the idea of
0:27:31 citizenship is there already no one says
0:27:34 why why are we why do we have to be
0:27:36 treated like set second class citizen
0:27:39 why is citizenship taken for granted
0:27:43 because it is a form of discrimination
0:27:45 just see the point it's definitely awful
0:27:47 but
0:27:49 the idea of citizenship is
0:27:51 is there and he's clever for bringing
0:27:53 this up he's saying this idea never
0:27:55 existed in the Islamic world in the way
0:27:58 that these guys are making it out to be
0:28:00 we didn't have citizenship like that
0:28:04 we didn't have like okay you're a Muslim
0:28:06 citizen so what does that mean
0:28:08 you had Muslim subjects and you had no
0:28:10 muslim subjects that was historically
0:28:12 what you had
0:28:13 if you are within the radius or the
0:28:16 circumference or the area or the Muslim
0:28:19 procession was taking place then you had
0:28:22 to follow the laws
0:28:23 but that's not because of citizenship
0:28:25 purposes
0:28:26 now
0:28:28 you know if if someone goes and does
0:28:30 something in another country
0:28:31 there's treaties between countries that
0:28:33 these are our citizens and this
0:28:35 so that's the first point of tension
0:28:38 he's saying citizenship any points on
0:28:40 that any questions
0:28:44 that way
0:28:46 pardon do you think you should be that
0:28:48 way no no but before we get to shouldn't
0:28:51 all and all that stuff let's just get
0:28:52 the let's lay out the framework that
0:28:54 he's
0:28:55 the second thing he says is that
0:28:57 he looks at the Iran obviously after
0:29:00 1979 the uh the Iranian the so-called
0:29:04 Islamic revolution yeah
0:29:07 and he says it's disfigured he calls it
0:29:09 disfigured he says because they're
0:29:11 trying to put things together which
0:29:13 don't belong together so they've created
0:29:15 a parliament yeah and then you've got
0:29:17 the mullers
0:29:19 so you're putting two things which are
0:29:21 not
0:29:23 what's the point of the parliament if
0:29:25 the mothers are going to make all the
0:29:26 decisions anyway
0:29:28 so it's he calls this this figure and
0:29:30 there's a good point here
0:29:31 if you if we think wisely and carefully
0:29:34 why'd you have this Parliament then you
0:29:36 have elections
0:29:38 and in fact he goes further and I think
0:29:39 he makes a very powerful point which is
0:29:41 almost impossible to argue against fully
0:29:44 you can say well I argue to some extent
0:29:46 or whatever he says the very fact that
0:29:49 you're you have a democratic system
0:29:52 think about it where does the power
0:29:54 where does the sovereignty lie
0:29:58 with the people because democracy
0:30:01 as Abraham Lincoln's government
0:30:02 representations for the People by the
0:30:04 people and whatever yeah of the people
0:30:09 of the people okay but every four years
0:30:11 so that means that it's conceivable that
0:30:15 someone we the people will decide we
0:30:17 don't share anymore
0:30:19 so we put Sharia when we want it and we
0:30:21 leave it when we don't want it
0:30:22 so he says what kind of sovereignty is
0:30:24 this where's the where is the
0:30:26 the Sharia where is the sovereignty
0:30:30 actually lying is it with Allah with the
0:30:32 people he's saying that actually when
0:30:33 you have systems of democracy every four
0:30:35 years or whatever maybe where you you
0:30:37 can vote in people and take people out
0:30:41 then here
0:30:43 what kind of uh sovereignty for Sharia
0:30:45 is this if you can remove it
0:30:48 so he's saying this is the disfigured uh
0:30:51 typology that he's referring to that's
0:30:53 why he calls it disregard he said you
0:30:55 don't even know what a sovereignty lies
0:30:56 you're trying to put things together
0:30:58 which don't belong together and he's
0:31:00 also not just Iran but he's talking
0:31:01 about the Muslim Brotherhood as well
0:31:03 and I think he makes a good point about
0:31:05 that because
0:31:07 we just died recently
0:31:09 for example
0:31:12 but one thing that karadawi mentions
0:31:13 very candidly right is you know
0:31:17 democracy is good basically like you
0:31:18 know democracy is part of the religion
0:31:22 but what we're talking about here
0:31:24 are we talking about the Democracy which
0:31:25 means that our human being can decide
0:31:27 that God's law is not implemented
0:31:29 I was talking about the representative
0:31:31 democracy which means that you can
0:31:33 remove
0:31:35 God's law and that we are The Sovereign
0:31:37 of God's law
0:31:40 and I don't think there's much
0:31:41 justification that can be made on that
0:31:42 Grant to be honest with you and I think
0:31:44 well hallak's Chris oh well
0:31:47 um
0:31:48 criticism is actually
0:31:50 very powerful to this kind of thing to
0:31:53 the Muslim Brotherhood and to Iran's
0:31:56 regime and all of them
0:31:59 that they have not been able to solve
0:32:00 this really
0:32:03 any questions
0:32:11 um
0:32:13 uh in a sense it's relevant to what
0:32:14 we're talking about before with uh this
0:32:16 issue of economic system that
0:32:18 uh and there's one academic Charles
0:32:20 Tilley I think makes this point really
0:32:21 well for that uh the whole nation state
0:32:24 system where you have at least on a
0:32:27 conceptual one to be fair practically as
0:32:29 well a separation between religious
0:32:31 authorities and political authorities
0:32:33 and these different polities with hard
0:32:36 borders that have sovereignty in and of
0:32:38 themselves
0:32:40 it's something which was initially
0:32:42 European yeah and you could say that
0:32:44 there were historical circumstances that
0:32:46 led to the sort of
0:32:47 organic development of that in Europe
0:32:49 specifically
0:32:50 yeah where you take that system now and
0:32:52 the history that goes with it and the
0:32:54 organic development of that in Europe
0:32:56 and then in the 20th century that system
0:32:59 gets kind of superimposed on the rest of
0:33:00 the world yeah that's where you end up
0:33:02 with the tensions that you have now
0:33:03 because yeah sort of overnight now like
0:33:06 you go from Islam and that the moral
0:33:09 ethics of Islam having a place in the
0:33:11 law and Islam being crucial to people
0:33:14 how they identify with their political
0:33:16 establishments or institutions whatever
0:33:18 and then all of a sudden now there's a
0:33:21 nation state and this body is Sovereign
0:33:23 and it's recognized by it as entrenched
0:33:26 by the UN all these different things so
0:33:28 that's where that tension comes from
0:33:29 yeah and so I think and that's exactly
0:33:31 by the way we just said exactly what he
0:33:32 says yeah so that's that's sort of his
0:33:34 argument that's what he points out and
0:33:35 so I think that's a challenge basically
0:33:37 for uh frankly any Muslim political
0:33:39 project now yeah yeah is operating
0:33:41 within that dynamic because as long as
0:33:43 you're within the nation-state system
0:33:44 you're always going to be wrestling with
0:33:47 that tension exactly and that's exactly
0:33:49 what he's saying you're gonna have to
0:33:50 enjoy those contradictions uh there are
0:33:52 there are issues there and
0:33:55 to pretend
0:33:58 to pretend that actually democracy is
0:34:01 fully compatible and all of us every
0:34:03 single way with the idea of a sovereign
0:34:06 law that's from God that's problematic
0:34:09 and it's it's not something which anyone
0:34:11 can
0:34:12 definitely uh
0:34:14 yeah I mean easily argue you know
0:34:17 so anyway we'll move on to another thing
0:34:19 which he says
0:34:22 which is yeah so as you mentioned that
0:34:24 to put it in a word he says that the
0:34:27 modern States
0:34:28 genealogy is exclusively European okay
0:34:32 and he also says that morals divorce
0:34:36 from science economics technology Etc
0:34:38 whereas in Islam there's no such divorce
0:34:40 so in other words morality and all the
0:34:43 other workings of the economy are
0:34:44 divorced whereas in Islam everything is
0:34:47 together
0:34:48 you know
0:34:50 um
0:34:51 so the question really is what is
0:34:53 subordinate to what
0:34:55 is the law subordinate to the ruler or
0:34:58 the ruler subordinate to the law
0:35:00 in Islam everything is subordinate to
0:35:03 the laws of God
0:35:04 simple as that
0:35:06 and that was consensus
0:35:09 but then when you have democracy in the
0:35:11 modern State and all these kind of
0:35:13 things the opposite is truth at least in
0:35:16 election time or when the referendum is
0:35:17 being done
0:35:21 is democracy subordinate to Sharia or
0:35:23 the Sharia subordinates the will of the
0:35:25 people
0:35:26 so this is the question yeah
0:35:30 okay you've got a question oh okay
0:35:34 um
0:35:35 so this is halak's basic criticism of
0:35:37 islamism yeah
0:35:39 the islamists are trying to create a
0:35:41 modern state
0:35:42 when the apparatus are both are
0:35:45 basically incompatible with one another
0:35:47 the Islamic operators incompatible with
0:35:49 modern State and vice versa
0:35:51 so let me read out to you what exactly
0:35:53 what halak says and then we can discuss
0:35:55 in groups and come back and
0:35:57 see how it works and you agree or
0:35:58 disagree yeah
0:36:00 hallak States this is in his book so
0:36:02 I've just taken some pertinent you know
0:36:05 things that he said he says first as an
0:36:08 anthropocentric entity the state
0:36:10 possesses a metaphysic that resides
0:36:12 resides within its own boundaries as
0:36:15 Sovereign will
0:36:16 as the highest manifestation of
0:36:18 positivism the state possesses and
0:36:20 display and displays a metaphysic of the
0:36:23 Here and Now reflecting its own Concepts
0:36:26 structures and practices
0:36:28 what is for the state is its truth of
0:36:32 will its Will To Power all other truths
0:36:35 being marginal and subordinate by stark
0:36:38 contrast no form of Islamic governance
0:36:41 can permit positivism nor is there a
0:36:45 place for for a metaphysic that issues
0:36:47 they're from
0:36:50 if the autonomy of the moral is the
0:36:52 highest
0:36:54 of all
0:36:57 how do you say this right let's see
0:36:58 Derita
0:36:59 desiderata yeah the metaphysics which
0:37:03 foregrounds moral autonomy cannot
0:37:05 descend to positivism
0:37:07 second and flowing from the formal
0:37:10 consideration Islamic governance cannot
0:37:13 permit any sovereignty or Sovereign will
0:37:16 other than that of God
0:37:19 Islamic governance is thus Bound by a
0:37:22 sovereign will outside of and higher
0:37:25 than itself
0:37:26 whereas the modern State sovereignty
0:37:28 represents an inner dialectic of
0:37:32 self-constitution sovereignty
0:37:34 constitutes the state and it and is
0:37:36 constituted by it
0:37:38 these two opposed conceptions of
0:37:41 sovereignty will inevitably stand in a
0:37:44 Deadlock
0:37:45 third I'm flowing from the form or two
0:37:47 consideration if God is the only
0:37:49 Sovereign which is to say if God is the
0:37:52 ultimate source of moral Authority then
0:37:54 any system that regulates human behavior
0:37:57 must Heat
0:37:58 the general norms and Technical rules
0:38:00 and regulations derived from and
0:38:03 dictated by the by the higher moral
0:38:06 principles
0:38:07 fourth under and reflecting
0:38:10 the aggregate effects of the former
0:38:12 three considerations the modern state
0:38:15 produces subjects that differ from those
0:38:18 produced by any form of Islamic
0:38:20 governance in profoundly political
0:38:22 social moral epistemic and psychological
0:38:25 ways
0:38:26 the microcos the microcosmic existence
0:38:28 of the Muslim subject on the unity of
0:38:31 the is and ought is a faithful
0:38:35 representation of the
0:38:36 microcosmic Sharia or shalai maybe and
0:38:41 sufist insistence that fact and value
0:38:45 are one and the same that all existence
0:38:48 is the unity and that the term poor
0:38:51 isn't in quranic discourse and in the
0:38:53 Muslim social and economic life is not a
0:38:56 statistic or a scientific datum
0:38:59 Fifth and finally the modern state in
0:39:02 this collaboration and contestation with
0:39:04 the globalization project
0:39:06 remains engaged in a preeminently
0:39:08 material world of fact it depends on and
0:39:12 promotes a homo economicus
0:39:15 whose exclusive and ultimate
0:39:18 or sis well again
0:39:22 is material profit and little else
0:39:26 this stands in sharp contrast with the
0:39:29 morally constructed homo economicus of
0:39:32 Islam and and its governance a species
0:39:35 that is subordinated to a higher moral
0:39:38 imperative
0:39:39 this latter subject is neither
0:39:41 contingent Norman accident in the
0:39:43 structure and makeup of Islam and
0:39:45 Islamic governance it is of its essence
0:39:49 who um let's let's take this along to be
0:39:53 taken so what we're going to do
0:39:55 work in groups of two
0:39:57 and have five minutes just to take this
0:40:00 all in summarize it and then tell us
0:40:01 what you will have a discussion to tell
0:40:03 you what tell each other what we think
0:40:07 um let's get some quick summaries
0:40:11 um what do you think he was
0:40:13 trying to say
0:40:16 in in the thing that we just read out
0:40:20 first points
0:40:23 um you know to put it very crudely he's
0:40:25 he's basically saying that in normal
0:40:27 West you know the the west or you know
0:40:31 we what we could um
0:40:33 uh it's called Western governments or
0:40:35 whatever they are they they
0:40:37 um use they they Place High emphasis on
0:40:41 pragmatism like uh he's in the high uh
0:40:44 the highest manifestation of positivism
0:40:46 and whereas um uh you know in as a
0:40:50 Muslim uh with Muslim governments we we
0:40:54 have a metaphysic where we we believe in
0:40:58 uh uh things like heaven and uh you know
0:41:02 Place uh religious things as a
0:41:05 which are incompatible with modern
0:41:09 um yeah
0:41:11 I think that's that is one of his points
0:41:15 or what else does he say so let's
0:41:18 quickly summarize everything else yeah
0:41:20 so what we had five points all together
0:41:22 anyway
0:41:27 yeah
0:41:29 why not
0:41:32 um so the the second point he makes is
0:41:34 basically that
0:41:35 um whereas you could say the nation
0:41:37 state system requires that a certain
0:41:40 body be out of parliament a government a
0:41:42 sovereign whatever is absolutely
0:41:44 Sovereign within that uh that boundary
0:41:47 territory Islam doesn't really permit
0:41:49 that because Islam puts that sovereignty
0:41:52 in God that Allah is the only one that
0:41:54 has that ranked or that station to be
0:41:56 able to legislate absolutely and for to
0:41:58 be obeyed
0:42:01 that uh
0:42:03 um the uh you could say I don't know if
0:42:07 it's about to say the right of of
0:42:08 judgment but like that Allah is the only
0:42:10 one who who adjudicates and judges
0:42:13 um yeah it makes you more an absolute
0:42:14 sense the
0:42:16 in this country for example with
0:42:18 Parliament is sovereign
0:42:19 parliamentary sovereignty
0:42:22 and so such Notions in an Islamic State
0:42:24 would be completely
0:42:26 not acceptable
0:42:27 you know so he's saying that because
0:42:29 that sovereignty originally it comes
0:42:32 from God so I mean the whole idea of a
0:42:35 parliament if you think about the
0:42:36 infrastructure of parliament right
0:42:39 a parliament one of its main
0:42:40 functionalities is to create law
0:42:44 that's what Parliament does I mean if
0:42:46 for example let's go back to this
0:42:47 country you have the House of Commons
0:42:50 and then you have the House of Lords
0:42:52 which now they're calling this pre
0:42:53 Supreme I don't know whatever
0:42:55 good it used to be called Supreme sorry
0:42:58 the House of Lords that's called the
0:42:59 Supreme Court I think yeah
0:43:01 in the judicial sense because the House
0:43:04 of Lords was actually the highest
0:43:05 judicial
0:43:06 body as well as being a secondary
0:43:09 uh second house
0:43:11 huh
0:43:13 in the 2000s yeah so it came out from
0:43:15 the households became an independent
0:43:16 thing the the Supreme Court
0:43:20 so there's always these checks and
0:43:22 balances in place but the idea of the
0:43:25 House of Commons
0:43:26 is you've got this process
0:43:29 where you have a white paper and then it
0:43:32 goes usually initiated by the cabinet
0:43:35 the government the executive call it
0:43:37 whatever you like but can be technically
0:43:40 though hasn't happened if I don't know
0:43:42 if when was the last time it did happen
0:43:43 one of the back bench MPS comes and puts
0:43:47 forward an idea for white paper and law
0:43:49 and then it actually becomes law because
0:43:51 the law process is actually a very long
0:43:54 one
0:43:54 you have to have you know the
0:43:56 presentation of the white paper and then
0:43:57 the first draft and the second draft and
0:43:59 then debate
0:44:00 and then you know the the they argue
0:44:03 over it
0:44:04 and in America they have very strict
0:44:06 laws on what passes as law and certain
0:44:10 percentage of the
0:44:13 house whether it's the House of
0:44:15 Representatives or the Senate and there
0:44:17 are two just like in this country in
0:44:19 America there's a House of
0:44:20 Representatives and then there's a
0:44:22 senate their job is to pass through laws
0:44:25 you in America it's more it's a little
0:44:28 bit more complicated because you have a
0:44:29 codified constitution
0:44:31 with amendments in there and if you want
0:44:34 to add an amendment there has to be once
0:44:36 again as numbers like for example if you
0:44:38 I wanted to add an amendment you have to
0:44:40 have I think two-thirds of the backing
0:44:41 of the house
0:44:43 you know I'm just
0:44:45 from memory it could be
0:44:48 three quarters of this three-quarters of
0:44:50 the house and of the House of
0:44:52 Representatives no three calls are like
0:44:54 the actual individual states in America
0:44:55 in the senate in the Senate so it's I
0:44:58 think it's first it's two-thirds of the
0:45:01 House of Representatives yeah and the
0:45:02 Congress so that that they have to like
0:45:04 two-thirds of them have to go for it
0:45:06 yeah
0:45:07 of this of the states yeah from the from
0:45:10 the Senate then no like from that state
0:45:12 of America
0:45:13 yeah well then they're represented
0:45:15 through the Senate right so like they
0:45:17 know that I think their individual
0:45:18 legislatures they each have to three
0:45:20 cores of yeah
0:45:22 because things and for my remember each
0:45:26 state each state has two
0:45:28 semis right
0:45:31 yeah it used to have two sentences right
0:45:34 anyway we've gone back into 10 years or
0:45:37 15 years ago policy is available
0:45:39 whatever yeah but but I think each state
0:45:41 has two senators and the House of
0:45:43 Representatives is done by proportional
0:45:45 population of a particular state
0:45:48 so for example if you have a state with
0:45:50 a huge population like state of New York
0:45:52 or California
0:45:54 then they'll have more members in there
0:45:57 anyway there's a certain threshold that
0:45:59 must be met in order for a law to pass
0:46:01 or an amendment to be made on the
0:46:02 codified Constitution
0:46:04 the idea of so you can't have separation
0:46:07 of powers if you don't have power in the
0:46:09 first place and the idea of a
0:46:10 legislature in any government
0:46:14 is that they they make laws that's what
0:46:17 that's that is the job of the
0:46:18 legislature they make laws that is the
0:46:21 job of the legislature there are three
0:46:24 primary
0:46:26 parts of any government
0:46:29 there is a legislature the executive and
0:46:32 the Judiciary
0:46:34 and in modern states there has to be a
0:46:37 separation of powers between all three
0:46:39 of them
0:46:40 so you can't have for example the
0:46:44 checks and balances they call them
0:46:46 checks and balances
0:46:48 that's why in America you have the
0:46:50 Supreme Court of Supreme Court yeah now
0:46:53 these Supreme Court
0:46:54 because it's 12 or 9 I can't remember
0:46:57 whoever how many however many there are
0:46:59 there I think it's nine because it has
0:47:00 to be odd number in it together
0:47:01 otherwise they're gonna keep getting you
0:47:03 know
0:47:04 there can't be it would be a problem if
0:47:07 they were also making the laws
0:47:09 do you see what I'm saying
0:47:12 if you imagine if they were
0:47:13 you're a senator and a judge that would
0:47:16 be impossible that's not allowed
0:47:17 actually
0:47:19 but the idea of a legislature is that
0:47:22 you're meant to create laws
0:47:24 now in Islam the laws are already there
0:47:28 so how are you going to create laws the
0:47:30 laws in the Quran Sunnah
0:47:33 so there's no need for creation so it
0:47:36 renders
0:47:37 the legislature
0:47:39 as a redundant
0:47:41 body
0:47:42 you don't need electricity
0:47:45 the one who created the heavens and the
0:47:47 earth and the atoms and for everything
0:47:49 in talks and strings and whatever you
0:47:51 like that one who created everything is
0:47:54 we trust him with all that
0:47:56 we also trust him with the laws of God
0:47:59 with the laws of the world yeah I mean
0:48:02 how we should govern ourselves how she
0:48:04 would get married how should we
0:48:05 eat me how should we go to war all of
0:48:08 that is there
0:48:11 there are some things which the Sharia
0:48:13 has not spoken about directly like
0:48:14 traffic laws and stuff like that there
0:48:16 you can have a discussion
0:48:19 you know how would that be passed
0:48:21 it'll be passed by the ruler
0:48:24 by the Khalifa
0:48:26 by the sultan by whomever but and it's
0:48:29 important to note here that
0:48:30 traditionally especially in books of
0:48:33 yeah anyway
0:48:35 imama whatever you want to call it where
0:48:37 how is their mom chosen
0:48:39 and Imam was chosen in Islam
0:48:42 through
0:48:45 is chosen by the elites
0:48:48 like for example uh Joanie mentions this
0:48:51 increathi
0:48:52 and
0:48:53 um
0:48:54 so you have these people who are the
0:48:58 elites meaning what do you mean by the
0:48:59 elites the scholars the ones who are
0:49:02 most influential in this particular
0:49:04 society the economists whoever it may be
0:49:07 like if these people were removed from
0:49:09 society then the bureau problems these
0:49:12 guys will come together and say this is
0:49:13 our new leaders so in a sense you know
0:49:16 in America they have something called
0:49:17 The Electoral College
0:49:19 they still do have it
0:49:21 but they used to refer to as
0:49:23 smoke-filled rooms like people in
0:49:25 smoke-free rooms they choose the leader
0:49:27 and all that stuff
0:49:28 because they would choose the leader who
0:49:30 would be
0:49:31 a you you know uh a leader of particular
0:49:35 political party
0:49:37 or they would count the Electoral
0:49:39 College votes or whatever it is
0:49:42 for us is is that there would be people
0:49:46 that are the elites that would choose
0:49:48 who the next leader is
0:49:51 that's it that's how it's done now this
0:49:53 leader would then get legitimacy through
0:49:55 doing Bayer
0:49:57 or asking for Bayer this would give him
0:50:00 legitimacy on a Monday
0:50:02 which means he's asked now for a pledge
0:50:04 of allegiance from the people if he's
0:50:05 unable to Garner
0:50:07 Pledge of Allegiance it doesn't mean he
0:50:09 cannot be in charge but it just means
0:50:10 he's going to find that real problematic
0:50:13 really problematic and that's why
0:50:14 traditionally this you you need to get
0:50:16 some level of legitimacy
0:50:19 and that person in order for him to be
0:50:21 or I'm gonna say or her
0:50:24 even though the majority of Scholars
0:50:27 they don't accept a female leader
0:50:31 no all of them don't accept as a Khalifa
0:50:33 one of there's nine conditions of being
0:50:36 a Khalifa
0:50:37 one of them is
0:50:41 you have to be from quraish it doesn't
0:50:44 mean that you have you have to be Arab
0:50:46 because there's many people that claim
0:50:48 to be from College from all different
0:50:49 types of background yeah
0:50:51 there's nine conditions
0:50:54 you have to have some some lineage about
0:50:59 and one of them is Decorah which is that
0:51:01 you have to be a male
0:51:03 okay
0:51:04 now what if like the Ottomans they're
0:51:06 not parashi what do we call that
0:51:09 you call it whatever you want to call it
0:51:10 call them Sultans it's just for a label
0:51:12 it's for all intents and purposes the
0:51:14 same thing is not going to be it doesn't
0:51:16 matter like it doesn't matter what you
0:51:18 call them Sultan or Khalifa If a woman
0:51:21 this is controversial
0:51:25 in the books of FIP and like I've just
0:51:28 mentioned like this kind of books they
0:51:29 say
0:51:32 if they if they say you Revolt like the
0:51:34 abbasids did
0:51:36 over the omeyads and they become in
0:51:38 power
0:51:39 so
0:51:41 he mentions this book that
0:51:44 this is
0:51:48 he mentions that's not right to do that
0:51:51 but he says if they do and they succeed
0:51:53 then you have to follow them
0:51:55 he actually mentioned so so a lot of you
0:51:58 cannot
0:52:00 uh
0:52:01 offer you cannot be a ruler without
0:52:04 power
0:52:05 it's called shulker
0:52:08 shulker means you have to have power to
0:52:10 protect
0:52:11 the people this is why especially like
0:52:14 Isis and these daesh and uh
0:52:17 these radical groups is you know there
0:52:19 is terrorist groups and uh still the one
0:52:21 called Japan all these ones there could
0:52:23 never be
0:52:25 thinking they could never be the Khalifa
0:52:28 of the people because they cannot offer
0:52:31 me how can you often be protect you can
0:52:32 offer me protection
0:52:34 one of the prerequisites is that you
0:52:36 have to be able to offer me protection
0:52:37 you have to if I'm going to give Bayer
0:52:38 to you if I'm going to give allegiance
0:52:40 to you then you have to be able to
0:52:42 protect my own or myself
0:52:43 but if I'm here again if I'm if you live
0:52:46 anywhere else I'm in Egypt too I'm in
0:52:49 Lebanon or you have no power you can't
0:52:51 protect me watch everyone will give you
0:52:53 my taxes now and you can't you're not
0:52:55 even giving me protection
0:52:58 even made a contract with the Jews that
0:53:01 he protected them in return for the
0:53:03 juzia
0:53:04 so their Pages yeah they get protection
0:53:06 so I'm some Ola if that's as a Jewish
0:53:10 he's been protected under the Islamic
0:53:13 State so you want me to give you taxes
0:53:15 and give you Allegiance and pledge and
0:53:17 you can't even protect me
0:53:19 so Yani that's just one technical point
0:53:22 of why a caliphate can actually never be
0:53:24 actually declared
0:53:27 without shulk
0:53:29 without this idea of being able to give
0:53:31 protection but the reason why I've given
0:53:33 you this kind of insight is because
0:53:35 just to let you know
0:53:38 that there's a difference between the
0:53:39 Democratic representative democracy
0:53:41 system
0:53:43 and what Islam says
0:53:45 no matter what the scholars of today who
0:53:48 are inclined towards whatever way of
0:53:49 thinking say
0:53:51 classically
0:53:52 the way of choosing a leader in Islam
0:53:56 is different has been different to a
0:53:59 representative democracy there are
0:54:00 similarities clearly similarity level
0:54:03 one but yeah
0:54:06 desert people process of legitimacy and
0:54:09 mandate giving through the people
0:54:11 and by the way this was men and women
0:54:13 became Bayer so now they're celebrating
0:54:16 the fact that woman has a vote for 100
0:54:17 years
0:54:18 women were giving back to the prophet
0:54:20 sallam from a thousand four hundred
0:54:22 years
0:54:23 that's the truth yeah so that Yani
0:54:26 that's one number two there's a shorter
0:54:29 process
0:54:31 which is consultation process
0:54:34 so we believe in shura which is
0:54:35 consultation
0:54:36 we believe in Bayer which is pledge and
0:54:38 there are some traits within those
0:54:40 mechanisms which resemble representative
0:54:43 democracy but they're not the same and
0:54:46 if we lie to the people and say yeah we
0:54:48 believe in democracy
0:54:49 Islam like we're not using it as a list
0:54:52 of two evils we believe in that
0:54:55 I'm not saying whether it's allowed or
0:54:57 not allowed to be used I'm saying
0:54:58 whether we're saying it's part of our
0:54:59 religion that's a real problem here
0:55:02 because if it was part of our religion
0:55:03 why wasn't why wasn't it documented
0:55:05 a thousand years ago
0:55:08 this is a real problem
0:55:10 number three
0:55:13 uh you have to have protection so as we
0:55:15 said the khalaba thing now we're saying
0:55:18 a morality and uranium everyone says
0:55:20 this is Richard I'm not allowed to do
0:55:22 this but if it happens
0:55:24 then yes
0:55:27 and you know these metallic types and
0:55:29 secular Muslims
0:55:31 other ones they'll say they have a big
0:55:33 deal about uh
0:55:35 not obeying the obeying the ruler
0:55:38 or being the ruler the truth is
0:55:41 this was the majority opinion
0:55:44 but the way they take it further is on a
0:55:47 different kind of level you know they
0:55:48 make a mockery of themselves in so doing
0:55:50 but the idea of obeying a ruler a Muslim
0:55:53 ruler that Rules by Allah's books uh a
0:55:56 book and stuff this was the the issue is
0:55:58 who does this apply on who does this not
0:56:00 apply on if what if it's a Jew that's in
0:56:03 charge of Muslims but the Muslims don't
0:56:05 have the power to fight him
0:56:07 and then the issue of comes into place
0:56:10 if they don't have the means they get
0:56:12 rid of him
0:56:13 what do you do you create Bloodshed you
0:56:15 know these are big things are way above
0:56:17 my pay grade but it's important for you
0:56:18 guys to know
0:56:19 uh about it
0:56:23 so sorry the reason why I brought this
0:56:26 up is because just to show you there's a
0:56:27 difference in in that system in that in
0:56:29 the system of Islam classically at least
0:56:31 there is a difference what was the third
0:56:33 point
0:56:34 do we mention one or two points just now
0:56:37 to okay what's the third point
0:56:42 um
0:56:47 that the consequence of establishing was
0:56:49 established previously that uh that led
0:56:53 to that really and truly uh Islam find
0:56:56 it difficult to accommodate a sovereign
0:56:58 other than God
0:56:59 that uh
0:57:02 the system that regularly says the
0:57:03 system regulates human behavior must
0:57:05 heed the general norms and Technical
0:57:06 rules and regulations derived from and
0:57:08 dictated by the higher moral principles
0:57:10 so it's in a sense of reiteration of the
0:57:12 previous point that morality is
0:57:15 absolutely
0:57:16 defined by God I think and sort of
0:57:19 related to that I'm not sure if this
0:57:20 ends up becoming 0.4 actually it does he
0:57:23 sort of uh Intimates towards that
0:57:25 um
0:57:26 uh the way I guess in a lot of
0:57:28 nation-state arrangements uh there is a
0:57:30 sort of there is a uh once again a
0:57:34 theoretical and practical division
0:57:36 between that which you might legislate
0:57:38 as a law and that which you might
0:57:39 consider to be moral so you hear people
0:57:41 today for example I'm against abortion
0:57:42 morally but legally I'm a Libertarians I
0:57:44 don't think the government should get
0:57:45 involved for example yeah without saying
0:57:48 anything too stranger on the abortion
0:57:49 issue but it's just an example
0:57:51 um
0:57:52 that that distinction between those two
0:57:54 things doesn't it's not really something
0:57:55 that uh Islam permits so the remote law
0:57:59 should be in line with morality uh not
0:58:01 apart from it this kind of division was
0:58:04 we saw this like recently in certain
0:58:07 diets and making that distinction and
0:58:09 National TV and stuff and even like this
0:58:13 is an academic here
0:58:15 who is not Muslim who's saying I don't I
0:58:17 don't know I don't agree with this you
0:58:18 know which is quite embarrassing for us
0:58:20 and it was the fourth point
0:58:23 yeah so that was um that was sort of the
0:58:26 fourth point that uh
0:58:29 uh
0:58:33 yeah so it's in a sense that fact and
0:58:35 value are the same uh he makes reference
0:58:38 here to the Sufi idea of all existence
0:58:40 is a Unity but the idea is that there is
0:58:43 no separate sphere here operating on one
0:58:46 side of the the facts and the figures
0:58:48 and what is and then on another side
0:58:49 your moral considerations which have
0:58:52 largely been relativized and privatized
0:58:54 in the nation state system that those
0:58:56 two things are sort of interlocking one
0:58:58 in the same okay what's the fifth point
0:59:01 someone finish it off for us would you
0:59:03 want to finish off because then we can
0:59:04 do a quick discussion
0:59:09 um
0:59:12 yeah reiterating the point of uh this is
0:59:14 this this thing about the positivism and
0:59:16 the facts that that world view also has
0:59:19 implications on how you look at human
0:59:21 beings so as they're he's saying that um
0:59:24 the modern world is looking at the human
0:59:25 being as the quote-unquote uh the
0:59:28 economic uh human you know the rational
0:59:31 actor and all of the things that come
0:59:34 with along with that
0:59:35 uh the Islam is viewing the human being
0:59:38 in a in a different way okay so let's
0:59:41 open this up guys what what do you think
0:59:43 the strengths or weaknesses of what he's
0:59:44 saying is
0:59:45 well how do you evaluate what you said
0:59:47 do you think what are the strongest
0:59:49 points he makes you think foreign
1:00:03 [Music]
1:00:17 and I also think we would have a
1:00:21 a better Society in the sense of we
1:00:23 wouldn't have so so many of this
1:00:25 new programs that
1:00:27 we find nowadays with the feminism all
1:00:30 this it's a good point Matthew what do
1:00:33 you think
1:00:36 fundamentally
1:00:37 democracy or like the law of man
1:00:40 to legislate to have that that will with
1:00:43 that power is incompatible with Islam
1:00:46 because
1:00:48 that God is the only one Allah
1:00:51 so to have like a democratic state is
1:00:54 not really compatible with Islam
1:00:57 and so what do you think the Muslim
1:00:59 Brotherhood and the and these
1:01:00 organizations what do you what arguments
1:01:03 you reckon that they would counteract
1:01:04 what you're saying with what do you
1:01:06 think they would say
1:01:06 [Music]
1:01:07 um
1:01:15 I'm guessing they would agree with some
1:01:16 parts of democracy
1:01:18 that the past are compatible they say
1:01:20 you should implement or whatever it's
1:01:22 not
1:01:23 yeah
1:01:24 yeah much
1:01:27 uh
1:01:28 at first I'd say that um
1:01:31 are these direct quotations from what
1:01:33 yeah
1:01:34 so I think to be fair to him that uh his
1:01:38 position regaining to sovereignty is
1:01:41 that Allah remains an ultimate Authority
1:01:43 so you saw me the point as well that it
1:01:45 doesn't that doesn't necessarily mean
1:01:46 that for example uh it becomes Haram for
1:01:50 uh someone who's in charge to you know
1:01:53 do traffic laws or you know some
1:01:55 educationals or whatever it is some of
1:01:56 these things where the Sharia has not
1:01:58 really taken any firm position like a
1:02:00 Khalif that Hadith will have to operate
1:02:01 within the general Spirit of Islam or
1:02:03 even whoever the leader is has to
1:02:04 operate within the general Spirit of
1:02:05 Islam to to legislate in line with the
1:02:09 the interests of the religion but uh
1:02:12 then the the Democracy Point uh the the
1:02:15 discussion would be well I guess the the
1:02:17 Nuance would be is is a person saying
1:02:20 that
1:02:21 uh democracy is uh you could say the
1:02:24 ideal system or that is what Islam came
1:02:26 with in
1:02:28 its entirety perhaps I guess it's how
1:02:31 you understand what he's saying like if
1:02:33 if someone says that uh given the
1:02:36 situation that we're in uh and the
1:02:38 restraints that we have to operate
1:02:39 within uh this is a a pragmatic like if
1:02:44 someone proposes a demo because I have
1:02:46 to rewind over here so democracy for
1:02:49 nobody is is a perfect thing yeah no I
1:02:52 haven't come across anybody who's ever
1:02:54 argued that I think anybody who ever
1:02:56 argued or argued for
1:02:58 um on pragmatic grounds yeah or
1:03:00 instrumental yeah we need this as a way
1:03:02 to like like peacefully deposed leaders
1:03:05 uh you know and that's why they put all
1:03:07 these checks and balances you mentioned
1:03:09 constitutions in place to basically you
1:03:12 know allay the worst effects of uh a
1:03:15 polity gone wrong yeah so if now some
1:03:18 some Muslim groups will say like given
1:03:20 the situation that we're in and the
1:03:21 constraints that we have to operate
1:03:22 Within
1:03:23 if we have a system where you have a
1:03:28 democracy that focuses on the election
1:03:30 of leaders for example that operates
1:03:32 within firm constraints that are put
1:03:35 down by the Sharia for the time being
1:03:39 I guess that's the argument they would
1:03:40 make instead of this is this is what
1:03:41 we're trying to do is that the argument
1:03:43 progressing two we have made
1:03:45 that's how you that's how you take in it
1:03:48 I think with with that it's you would
1:03:51 find that even being said amongst uh
1:03:53 salafis like if not I mean with this if
1:03:56 you know hardcore
1:03:58 hardcore but very very um well known
1:04:03 salafi person of the last 34 years he's
1:04:08 saying in order to he he was asked a fat
1:04:09 to our question
1:04:11 should we vote in the American elections
1:04:13 he said in order to choose the lesser of
1:04:15 two evils yes but he made it clear that
1:04:17 what he was saying was it's the letter
1:04:19 of two evils that's what we're doing
1:04:20 here
1:04:22 whereas in karadawi
1:04:25 in in in contradistinction with or sorry
1:04:28 in contradiction to this is saying no
1:04:32 he's saying that
1:04:33 democracy
1:04:35 we want a state of democracy
1:04:38 this is which which of the two would you
1:04:40 think is more right here
1:04:44 for example
1:04:46 sorry to say
1:04:52 and then you have a third you have a
1:04:54 third opinion should we put this in
1:04:55 there should make it even worse then you
1:04:57 have this opinion of some groups who say
1:04:59 that even engaging in this process takes
1:05:02 you is
1:05:05 is something which is disbelief just
1:05:08 engaging in this
1:05:09 is that is that a tenable uh
1:05:13 democracy here mean like democracy as is
1:05:16 known around the world because if it is
1:05:18 that and you're saying man can legislate
1:05:20 I mean as a Muslim I can advocate
1:05:26 once again like like if you're going to
1:05:28 Macau State on things Lord this is the
1:05:29 intention and that but you just like
1:05:30 putting layers upon layers upon what
1:05:32 you're trying to say
1:05:34 like when it comes down to it what is
1:05:35 democracy how does everyone understand
1:05:37 this definition
1:05:39 uh yeah go ahead I I see you good point
1:05:42 go
1:05:44 I honestly it may sound extreme but I
1:05:48 don't think that they can be a democracy
1:05:49 which is fair I think I think people
1:05:53 most people are not able to decide
1:05:55 what's better for them and this is Plato
1:05:58 what he said yeah so so
1:06:00 probably the best if you have to if you
1:06:03 had to choose a democracy I think it
1:06:05 would have to be very very limited only
1:06:07 to those people that are capable to
1:06:10 decide on our way of
1:06:12 issues so
1:06:15 you have to pass an exam
1:06:21 yeah if I would choose the first one if
1:06:24 the letter of the two he was like yeah
1:06:26 yeah okay just
1:06:28 so you acknowledge that it's it's not
1:06:30 ideal yeah but you say that okay we're
1:06:33 just using because there's three there's
1:06:35 three opinions if you haven't seen the
1:06:36 Muslim world right now
1:06:38 one opinion opinion one which seems to
1:06:41 be though
1:06:42 and stuff
1:06:44 the parents saying
1:06:46 Muslim Brotherhood seemed to be saying
1:06:47 this democracy is part of Islam and
1:06:49 that's what we want
1:06:51 call too
1:06:53 or the second opinion is that it's a
1:06:55 letter of two evils and we use it
1:06:56 instrumentally
1:06:57 call three is that actually is koffer
1:06:59 and shuriken if you do it you you've
1:07:01 committed this belief
1:07:03 which is a view of some brothers from
1:07:05 Hezbollah
1:07:06 and also the view of the of the Techni
1:07:09 groups like
1:07:12 although although having said that
1:07:14 um
1:07:15 halwin who's Big scholar that
1:07:19 you know some radical groups used to ask
1:07:22 him for fatwa he said that he believes
1:07:25 it's kufar
1:07:27 yeah he said he believes his koffer
1:07:30 however if you do it you're not careful
1:07:34 no there are some things like which are
1:07:36 covered but if you do not careful so I'm
1:07:38 just giving you all the Catholic reading
1:07:39 this belief I am yeah
1:07:43 those who hold the third opinion and
1:07:44 maybe with that's it anyways that third
1:07:47 opinion I think is uh is is based on a
1:07:50 misunderstanding of what we're talking
1:07:51 about because I think they're they hear
1:07:53 our democracy our laws and then they are
1:07:56 uh understanding from that this means
1:07:59 that you are getting rid of the uh the
1:08:01 authority of the Sharia equation and you
1:08:04 are doing like tough deal of that of the
1:08:06 of like some kind of uh man-made how
1:08:09 would you really Define that opinion
1:08:10 over the vinyl so you say look if you I
1:08:14 guess the one that we like has been used
1:08:16 is the one with the example of us
1:08:18 if what you're saying is that to operate
1:08:20 within a governmental structure that
1:08:23 isn't necessarily uh fully compliant
1:08:26 with the Sharia it becomes careful
1:08:27 because you're legislating with other
1:08:29 than what Allah has uh has registrated
1:08:31 with then you have Yusuf alaihissalam
1:08:33 who's working in the uh who's a minister
1:08:35 how do you know that the minister is not
1:08:37 Muslim
1:08:40 uh
1:08:48 he wasn't going to take him into the
1:08:51 religion of the Malika Allah
1:08:54 so
1:08:55 clearly he was not Muslim the the
1:08:59 he was not Muslim the the the king that
1:09:02 time
1:09:03 and he was working with him in fact he
1:09:05 Joseph in the Quran makes a case
1:09:09 you know he said make me you know
1:09:12 preside over the Treasures of the earth
1:09:14 meaning the like today's treasure or
1:09:18 something yeah
1:09:20 uh so and that's why montemia said if if
1:09:24 someone is going into this
1:09:25 if someone's going into a situation and
1:09:28 it's bad but he wants to make it better
1:09:31 then this is
1:09:36 that you know and have fear of Allah as
1:09:38 much as you can the third opinion
1:09:40 therefore seems to be quite weak
1:09:42 well so does the first opinion to me
1:09:45 anyway I don't know what you think the
1:09:47 first opinion which is that democracy is
1:09:48 part of the religion of Islam yeah any
1:09:51 Islam and democracy are two sides of the
1:09:53 same coin uh representative democracy
1:09:55 maybe it's uh
1:09:56 yeah I mean I don't agree with either I
1:09:58 think the the second opinion here
1:10:00 what is what do you mean by democracy
1:10:02 what's intended what's intended by this
1:10:04 because there's like a I feel like
1:10:05 there's so many conflictions here we
1:10:06 have on one side democracy is a
1:10:08 legislating thing we'll have another
1:10:09 Well
1:10:11 as a means of representative democracy
1:10:14 so where you can choose a leader and
1:10:16 there is a potential that the leader is
1:10:17 not is not Muslim even or that he
1:10:19 doesn't represent Islamic ethics or laws
1:10:22 and there is a potential that there are
1:10:23 some that all that will Implement some
1:10:25 laws and there's a potential that some
1:10:27 will not Implement all the laws
1:10:30 so all that in in the American example
1:10:33 if it was American elections or British
1:10:35 elections Jeremy corbyn or something
1:10:36 yeah he doesn't Implement Islamic laws
1:10:39 but he's more favorable to Muslims you
1:10:42 see
1:10:43 so the arguments is that well we're not
1:10:46 we're not voting for him because we
1:10:49 agree with him
1:10:51 we're voting for him because we're
1:10:52 trying to lesser an evil or because it
1:10:54 will make life easier for Muslim people
1:10:55 so
1:10:57 thank you are they saying that
1:10:59 you're afraid yeah are you saying that
1:11:02 they're saying that
1:11:04 we're going to use with that democracy
1:11:06 meaning a a representative democratic
1:11:09 system where we are electing people that
1:11:12 are going to legislate by other than
1:11:14 what Allah has revealed
1:11:15 it's a potential that they can be
1:11:18 elected
1:11:19 and they say that's compatible with this
1:11:22 one yeah that's what that's what I was
1:11:24 saying look in theory once again devil's
1:11:25 advocate here but look in etherea if you
1:11:28 do Bayer
1:11:29 and you put in a and and now the the
1:11:32 Khalifa judge or some other like in
1:11:35 Islamic history there's potential that
1:11:37 anyone who's given that power can
1:11:39 so if it's based on potential then you
1:11:41 have the same thing with the bear
1:11:43 but BR is even if the bear has not
1:11:46 concluded the person can still rule
1:11:48 let's have shulker yeah but if through
1:11:50 that it's possible to have a Khalifa
1:11:52 who's alignment the legislative
1:11:54 he's known as a Muslim he's saying this
1:11:57 one is potentials the issue of
1:12:00 sovereignty
1:12:01 I haven't I haven't decided of like any
1:12:03 of that I don't want anyone to
1:12:06 is dangerous because
1:12:09 the question would be to what extent for
1:12:12 example if you've got a person in the
1:12:13 house yeah and this is where hydrogism
1:12:15 and technicalism can actually come up
1:12:16 because he was a slippery slope yeah so
1:12:18 for example you've got a father he's the
1:12:20 head of the house in Islam yeah he's a
1:12:22 man and his father is the husband
1:12:23 everything
1:12:24 and he puts on MTV music or let's say he
1:12:28 puts on uh you know yeah put some empty
1:12:30 music as a music video of a woman you
1:12:33 know dancing and this and that on the
1:12:35 screen
1:12:38 would you agree with that
1:12:41 there's one call that says no no there
1:12:44 is no hole this is
1:12:46 you know this whole seeing a woman
1:12:49 before like naked before you get married
1:12:50 and stuff that's if you want to get
1:12:51 married to it you know you have no
1:12:53 chance of getting married and there's no
1:12:54 issue no no thing there so what I'm
1:12:57 saying is that say for example like the
1:12:58 man he actually puts on
1:13:00 or he lets he allows his children or his
1:13:04 wife or whatever to put that stuff on
1:13:07 let's just say he does
1:13:09 what is what is the status of this man
1:13:10 is he a kaffir is
1:13:15 no none of them
1:13:16 let's just stick with this example
1:13:19 let's just stick with this example if
1:13:22 this is believer because this goes back
1:13:25 to a question of Allah
1:13:28 the question of what if you rule by what
1:13:31 other than Allah has revealed
1:13:33 so then intention has a big part of it
1:13:35 if you're ruling because of shahwah
1:13:38 because he's in charge he can change the
1:13:40 situation
1:13:41 he is in charge he can change he can
1:13:43 take he can rip up all the wires and
1:13:45 he's in charge just as much I will talk
1:13:48 about these in Muslim lands or the
1:13:50 contests and stuff happening but in the
1:13:51 Hat in the house this happens
1:13:53 the same person who's criticizing you
1:13:55 know the the concepts happening in us
1:13:56 has got the concepts up on his
1:13:58 television
1:14:00 do you make a distinction a father who
1:14:02 for example no but he's the head of the
1:14:04 house yeah yeah so a father who allows
1:14:06 his his his family to get involved in
1:14:08 whatever right you can see that's one
1:14:10 thing and then another thing is a father
1:14:11 who says who puts on the MTV but then
1:14:13 doesn't allow his son to pray in the
1:14:15 house for example
1:14:16 or like when his son is trying to do
1:14:18 dollar one item he says uh you're not
1:14:20 allowed to do that you're not allowed to
1:14:21 do that he takes this away no but now
1:14:22 we're convoluting the thing the terrible
1:14:24 item is it's not worship anyway okay
1:14:25 okay fine but anything that's part of it
1:14:28 let's say prayer if he stops his son
1:14:30 from praying in the uh in the house okay
1:14:32 does he become a cafe
1:14:34 that's more complicated bro
1:14:36 yeah
1:14:38 and he's okay with this is he ruling
1:14:41 girl
1:14:42 he just said the youth is is happy with
1:14:44 it right it wasn't making with their
1:14:46 youth if he's happy with it
1:14:48 the youth is someone is
1:14:51 he he doesn't mind his wife or something
1:14:54 actually having intercourse with other
1:14:55 men
1:14:56 that's what the Tariff of the youth is
1:14:58 we will use it freely for another one
1:15:00 but the youth is they translate into
1:15:05 s yeah so it's a is somebody
1:15:10 so what is that he has like friends and
1:15:13 he's okay with this it's not it's not
1:15:14 the he's not their youth okay he's
1:15:16 lacking a moral uh
1:15:20 all that stuff but he's not the he's not
1:15:22 the youth the Persian is pimp
1:15:25 oh is that they call it no way yeah
1:15:29 really yeah yeah
1:15:31 I don't know what you heard about me
1:15:35 but um I was gonna say was um
1:15:38 the point is is that really this person
1:15:40 who is doing this is letting his let's
1:15:42 say this example because I don't
1:15:44 convoluted too much letting them watch
1:15:46 whatever series or or whatever it may be
1:15:50 he's not a cafe
1:15:51 because he's just he's got shahua he
1:15:54 means his desires of certain things in
1:15:56 this Dunya
1:15:57 and because if you say that then you're
1:15:59 gonna there's a slip there's such a fine
1:16:02 line between saying that says any any
1:16:03 kabira that you do is
1:16:05 can you see the halogy idea that if you
1:16:09 do any major sin that you're a
1:16:10 disbeliever why because they actually
1:16:12 premised it on the same idea that you're
1:16:13 doing
1:16:15 that's what they claimed
1:16:17 they claim that they're doing so if you
1:16:19 if you allow yourself for other people
1:16:21 to do this stuff then you're doing
1:16:26 so the question is on what grounds is
1:16:33 is when the person makes it clear that
1:16:34 they're doing it because they believe in
1:16:36 that they have to show us somehow that
1:16:38 they believe in that
1:16:40 they believe they actually believe that
1:16:42 this law is better than this law so if
1:16:44 someone says I believe
1:16:46 that the law of
1:16:50 putting people in prison is better than
1:16:51 the amputation on the Quran
1:16:55 this is
1:16:57 I'm not saying the person becomes
1:16:58 automatically a careful but it can be
1:17:00 like if you do a common stuff because
1:17:02 what are you talking about the Quran has
1:17:03 spoken on the matter is
1:17:09 so if Allah has spoken about it then
1:17:12 you're saying something opposite to
1:17:13 Allah says how you actually believe in
1:17:15 what Allah says then
1:17:16 that means I don't believe that you
1:17:18 believe I have I have reason to believe
1:17:20 that you don't believe
1:17:22 but if the person has that wheel for
1:17:23 example says that we can't put it in now
1:17:25 because people are not ready for it or
1:17:27 or we whatever
1:17:29 that's different that's that's different
1:17:31 because at the end of it he doesn't
1:17:32 theoretically believe that the
1:17:35 you know the law of Allah should be in
1:17:36 place but this idea of believing the law
1:17:38 of Allah
1:17:39 is the highest is extremely important
1:17:41 there's so many ayas in the Quran about
1:17:43 it
1:17:44 foreign
1:17:49 foreign
1:18:16 foreign
1:18:19 foreign
1:18:24 they don't find anything like
1:18:25 constrained in their hearts
1:18:28 miani
1:18:30 and then they completely submit to Allah
1:18:33 this is the true belief of Islamic
1:18:36 this is if you don't believe in this
1:18:37 this
1:18:38 is so emphatic this is
1:18:46 Allah says that do they it's a
1:18:48 historical question do you prefer the
1:18:50 ruling of jali ignorant times
1:18:55 pre-islamic ignorant times do you prefer
1:18:57 man-made laws
1:19:00 uit question uh
1:19:03 um
1:19:11 three times whoever does not rule by
1:19:14 what Allah has revealed than Dead's
1:19:16 believers
1:19:17 meaning what not if the man is doing it
1:19:19 from or because he's been forced because
1:19:21 the Americans are going to put sanctions
1:19:22 they're going to kill his people if he
1:19:23 doesn't do it none of that is because he
1:19:26 prefers X laws of Hawaii laws he prefers
1:19:28 that he believes in it
1:19:29 that's the best way to spot more effects
1:19:32 today
1:19:34 hola is one of the best ways to spot a
1:19:36 moon effort and hypocrite somebody who
1:19:38 does not believe in Islam he's a fake
1:19:40 when you when you start speaking to them
1:19:42 and then you realize
1:19:43 that they don't actually believe in this
1:19:45 uh stuff basically put it put it in a
1:19:47 nutshell don't believe in the
1:19:48 stockholstery
1:19:50 yeah the same God that created the
1:19:53 cosmos and all this you believe in he
1:19:55 created all that stuff and he organized
1:19:56 it but he couldn't organize your life
1:19:58 and my life
1:20:00 no way yeah so these are three
1:20:04 approaches I think I personally lean to
1:20:07 the set approach number two which is
1:20:08 that we use
1:20:10 democracy instrumentally
1:20:12 uh and it's definitely not covered I'm
1:20:15 completely convinced it's not that stuff
1:20:17 and it should be in fact not it's not
1:20:19 could be should be used instrumentally
1:20:21 if it will put us in a better position
1:20:25 but this idea that it's part of the
1:20:26 religion and you get however by doing it
1:20:28 and all these kind of things
1:20:30 this is also Haram I think this is to
1:20:33 say that is is taking it too far I don't
1:20:36 see how someone can come to that because
1:20:37 I've been trying my best to understand
1:20:39 that but I don't I don't believe in that
1:20:41 at all so I think the middle ground is
1:20:43 best any questions on this or any points
1:20:47 well if you if you have a controller you
1:20:50 or maybe exists already but how
1:20:53 controller you don't choose the Leader
1:20:55 by choose certain people
1:20:58 that didn't choose that either
1:20:59 and the condition being that those
1:21:03 people have to be that's exactly that's
1:21:04 what happens here in the UK for example
1:21:07 we choose the conservatives and then
1:21:08 they look who they chose this trustful
1:21:09 we don't know no one voted for this
1:21:11 woman she's the weakest leader in human
1:21:13 history actually yeah so we
1:21:17 just forget about British history in
1:21:18 human history
1:21:19 do you know I was watching I was
1:21:21 watching the news
1:21:23 sorry I was watching my mom yeah
1:21:26 and she came up and she was speaking and
1:21:28 I've been asked questions and stuff
1:21:30 and you know what my mom said she said
1:21:32 she she's the Prime Minister she goes
1:21:34 primary school teacher
1:21:38 it's like the maximum she could be
1:21:42 you know is it what the hell like I
1:21:44 probably she's trying to she's trying to
1:21:46 take control of her country she wouldn't
1:21:47 be able to take control over your nine
1:21:48 classroom I promise you she wouldn't
1:21:49 she'd be in and everyone would tell us
1:21:51 to get the hell out and she'd have to
1:21:52 call the deputy head and the the the
1:21:55 male the male the head teacher someone
1:21:57 with a real force or something like that
1:22:00 yeah I said but uh
1:22:02 that you know I mean it's absolutely no
1:22:05 no we have a system nowadays where the
1:22:07 parties choose their own leaders in it
1:22:08 and it's it's possible for maybe they
1:22:11 should change that if you because if you
1:22:13 thing is democracy is always sacrificed
1:22:15 okay because in this country we have
1:22:17 first pass the post system anyway
1:22:19 if they wanted the most democratic thing
1:22:21 they should have put together something
1:22:23 called proportional representation PR
1:22:26 which is what they have in them in if
1:22:28 ironically in Israel so-called Israel
1:22:31 yeah which is Palestine which is that
1:22:33 they have something called the list
1:22:34 system which is PR system that's why
1:22:36 they have to create a huge Coalition of
1:22:38 every time they have um you know they
1:22:40 have to create a huge solution of
1:22:41 different pies
1:22:43 uh so first possible post gives you this
1:22:47 proportionate number of
1:22:49 seats to the amount of thing so they
1:22:51 they realize that you have to sacrifice
1:22:53 democracy to get stability
1:22:55 they realize that and they're happy to
1:22:57 do it and there's not really much debate
1:22:58 there was a referendum that I think I
1:23:00 don't know when this was Nick cleggy or
1:23:02 we want an AV system which is some happy
1:23:04 medium between the first possible system
1:23:07 and the proportional representation
1:23:09 system
1:23:10 and there was a referendum and it failed
1:23:12 I don't know 10 years ago when I
1:23:14 remember when this one it was when they
1:23:16 did the uh
1:23:17 the vote Cameron did it yeah in his
1:23:21 leadership for to leave the EU that this
1:23:24 is and they would do that option and
1:23:26 then they did the option for AV AV yeah
1:23:28 but most people most people in Britain
1:23:30 decided no because actually we want
1:23:32 stability we don't want uh democracy as
1:23:35 much so Halas let's take this thought to
1:23:37 its logical conclusion you know what I
1:23:40 mean if you want to sacrifice democracy
1:23:41 then sacrifice it properly and you get
1:23:43 profitability
1:23:45 I'm not advocating authoritarianism or
1:23:47 dictatorship so but I'm saying there's
1:23:50 always a trade-off being made but you
1:23:53 are I like it
1:23:54 so I've already got one of those at home
1:23:59 I want that bombshell hopefully you have
1:24:02 uh have have enjoyed this as much as I
1:24:05 have