Dr. Jordan Peterson Questioned on 'Message to Muslims' (2022-10-18) ​

0:00:00 your brothers and sisters in the slum
0:00:02 net from Norway are establishing a
0:00:04 Masjid a dawa Center this Center this
0:00:08 Masjid this educational institution will
0:00:10 act like a beacon of light calling the
0:00:14 Muslims in Norway back to the essence of
0:00:16 Islam so give generously and Allah
0:00:18 azzawajal would give you even
0:00:21 I it is not obvious to me that I let me
0:00:23 kind of push back a little bit on that
0:00:25 point because you're an individual like
0:00:27 obviously in your newest book you're
0:00:28 talking about
0:00:29 um category about precision and I would
0:00:31 say you're an individual that is very
0:00:32 precise they're categorized like if I
0:00:34 was to say anything I would say that
0:00:36 you're individual that's scrupulously
0:00:37 meticulous inexactitude and I don't know
0:00:40 meticulousness or whatever yeah so you
0:00:42 speak and you think about what you're
0:00:44 going to say before you say it that's
0:00:46 what you're known for in fact if someone
0:00:48 says something which is uh kind of off
0:00:50 the market ill but you pull them up for
0:00:52 it right and you know usually because I
0:00:54 don't understand it then yeah for
0:00:56 example like the Kathy Newman interview
0:00:57 like the assumptions and the questioning
0:00:59 that she had she had when she was
0:01:01 questioning yourself you pulled her up
0:01:02 on it and that's why it became so uh
0:01:04 popular the discussion was so popular
0:01:06 and you're a clinical psychologist so
0:01:09 what I was going to say is that for
0:01:10 example if I were to make a video right
0:01:11 I say this message to the you know to
0:01:13 White Canadians or something yeah yeah
0:01:15 and I said you know it's hard to talk to
0:01:17 them I say look you know um sensitively
0:01:19 why don't you reach out to some Russians
0:01:21 you know know or you know heaven forbid
0:01:23 you know reach out to Black Africans or
0:01:25 First Nation people you know whatever it
0:01:28 may be
0:01:29 how do you think
0:01:31 the community of why Canadians let's say
0:01:34 for the sake of argument will react to
0:01:35 that kind of message what if it was you
0:01:37 yeah well you're pretty disagreeable so
0:01:39 you'd probably get bit back a lot yeah
0:01:40 but exactly I don't I don't it's hard to
0:01:43 say until you do it you know yeah I mean
0:01:45 I have reached out to other communities
0:01:48 let's say I did an interview with a
0:01:50 friend of mine who's a Native American
0:01:52 Carver who lives on the west coast and
0:01:55 you know I'm not very happy with the
0:01:57 narrative that's being promoted in
0:01:59 Canada which is that the European
0:02:03 settlement of Canada is best viewed as
0:02:06 genocidally Colonial
0:02:09 and having said that my friend this
0:02:11 Carver was in a residential school in
0:02:14 Canada and the residential schools were
0:02:16 put forward by the government in an
0:02:19 attempt and other institutions in an
0:02:21 attempt to separate the indigenous
0:02:23 children from their families and then
0:02:25 socialize them rapidly according to
0:02:28 European norms and there was some
0:02:30 positive motivation for that and
0:02:33 sometimes that helped and work but one
0:02:36 of the things that did happen was that
0:02:37 some schools were let's say invaded by
0:02:40 people of a pronounced pedophilic and
0:02:43 and sadistic bent and my friend ended up
0:02:46 in one of those schools and his life was
0:02:48 so Dreadful that you can't even hear
0:02:50 about it without
0:02:52 without
0:02:53 serious emotional damage and so you know
0:02:56 I went forward with that discussion and
0:02:58 it was very contentious but it went very
0:03:01 well and it it told a story that was
0:03:04 true and needed to be told and so you
0:03:06 know you step into foreign territory at
0:03:08 your peril that's for sure but
0:03:11 you know and it was relatively difficult
0:03:13 for me to arrange
0:03:15 for this to be a possibility of course
0:03:17 and and but my my thought again because
0:03:22 I'm trying to look for what we have to
0:03:24 offer each other rather than what
0:03:26 divides us I thought it was worthwhile
0:03:28 so let me push back again once again
0:03:30 once again on this plan so for example
0:03:32 it's not always what you say sometimes
0:03:34 it can be what you don't say so for
0:03:36 instance
0:03:37 I think you've become somewhat of an
0:03:39 emblem of Western Civilization right in
0:03:41 terms of your intention help us no you
0:03:44 have and I also pushed back at the point
0:03:45 that this is a foreign culture because I
0:03:46 think that it's like I mean you've
0:03:47 mentioned this in lecture as well that
0:03:48 Islam has now become part of like you
0:03:50 know Western culture yeah well that's
0:03:52 the open question as as we noted in the
0:03:55 introductory marks it's like well our is
0:03:58 Islam part of the West we're kind of
0:03:59 having the same discussion about Russia
0:04:01 in some real sense and yeah that's
0:04:03 really going well at the moment yeah so
0:04:05 there's that part but what I would say
0:04:06 is that you know if there is a bloody
0:04:10 history of Western colonialism and
0:04:12 that's almost undeniable like for
0:04:13 example look at Algeria for instance
0:04:15 Algeria when it was annexed by France
0:04:18 and there's no dispute there's no
0:04:20 dispute in what happened there so the
0:04:21 issue like I'll give you one example of
0:04:23 many this Spanish colonialism of Latin
0:04:26 America for example
0:04:28 um there are things that happened and
0:04:29 it's I'm not saying that's not things
0:04:31 that happened on only just on the
0:04:33 Western Front yeah uh there are things
0:04:35 that happened on the Muslim front as
0:04:36 well of course that's true yeah no doubt
0:04:38 about it right no I'm not going to stand
0:04:40 here and you know defend them who came
0:04:42 and we're very intolerant to uh
0:04:44 producing Christians and kick them out
0:04:45 of their homes and stuff like that who
0:04:47 existed in Spain as well in fact so the
0:04:49 point is I feel like I don't know as a
0:04:51 psychologist I think my question would
0:04:53 be to you that don't you think is it of
0:04:55 any benefit to be concessionary in this
0:04:57 regard like to start off a discussion by
0:04:59 saying like we know
0:05:01 um that these are things that could
0:05:02 cause resentment yes because like for
0:05:05 example I know a lot of Algerian people
0:05:07 and this is very clear in their
0:05:08 historical memory yes and the the
0:05:11 accusation will be that the West have
0:05:13 Colonial Amnesia here they don't they
0:05:16 are not taking into account what they've
0:05:17 done I'll be honest with you they don't
0:05:19 don't even know how well okay yeah well
0:05:22 absolutely I mean look here here's how I
0:05:25 would address that psychologically
0:05:28 um in in many of the mythological
0:05:31 stories that I've read There is the
0:05:34 motif of the evil uncle
0:05:36 and so for example in the ancient
0:05:39 Egyptian cosmology
0:05:41 that there were two there were four
0:05:44 deities four Central deities although a
0:05:46 host of associated deities and one of
0:05:48 them was Osiris who was the deity of the
0:05:50 state that might be a good way of
0:05:52 thinking about it and he had an evil
0:05:53 brother Seth who was always conspiring
0:05:56 in the background to overthrow the state
0:05:58 and to establish his own rules say based
0:06:01 on Power and the Egyptians this is
0:06:04 thousands of years ago had figured out
0:06:05 by that point because their society was
0:06:07 quite large that
0:06:09 there is something in the social
0:06:10 structure itself that posed a threat to
0:06:12 the structure and that was the tendency
0:06:14 for the structure and its leaders to
0:06:16 become willfully blind and for
0:06:18 conspiratorial
0:06:21 powers or patterns that would use
0:06:23 resentment and the desire for power to
0:06:25 overthrow that and they thought of
0:06:27 Osiris as willfully blind and Seth has
0:06:30 an eternal danger and that's true and
0:06:31 and then but there's a there's another
0:06:34 element to the evil Uncle too which is
0:06:36 that in some real sense and it's a very
0:06:39 difficult thing to sort through morally
0:06:41 all of us walk on blood soaked ground
0:06:43 because human history is in some regards
0:06:48 a nightmarish catastrophe and some of
0:06:50 that's just because life was so
0:06:52 difficult but it's also because people
0:06:54 did in unbelievably cruel and malicious
0:06:57 and deceptive
0:06:59 uh
0:07:00 committed committed unbelievably cruel
0:07:02 and atrocious and deceptive acts and so
0:07:05 we're all stuck with this problem that
0:07:07 here we are in relative peace and
0:07:10 Harmony so far although we seem to be
0:07:12 doing everything we can to try to
0:07:14 disrupt that at the moment and part of
0:07:17 the price that's being paid for that is
0:07:19 an endless Litany of historical
0:07:21 catastrophe and then we all have to face
0:07:24 up to well what does that mean for us in
0:07:27 terms of our individual responsibility
0:07:28 and how do we construe ourselves in our
0:07:31 society in light of that fact and we
0:07:34 could go back and forth continually
0:07:36 about whose historical atrocities were
0:07:38 worse and that's a rough contest because
0:07:41 you know the devil is definitely in the
0:07:43 details there and then it also brings up
0:07:45 the other problem which is well
0:07:47 when the Spaniards went to Central
0:07:50 America a lot of the Bloodshed they
0:07:53 produced or the death they produced was
0:07:55 actually a consequence of the
0:07:56 introduction of disease because that
0:07:58 took out about 95 percent of the native
0:08:00 population in the Western Hemisphere and
0:08:03 then the conquistadors were well maybe
0:08:06 they weren't the finest representatives
0:08:08 of the of the highest flowering Western
0:08:10 Civilization we don't know what to what
0:08:13 degree they were the sort of thugs that
0:08:15 couldn't get along at home and went out
0:08:17 adventuring and and then and and even if
0:08:20 I say attempted to take full
0:08:22 responsibility for that I'm not sure
0:08:24 what it would mean because I suspect I
0:08:26 have a lot more in common with you
0:08:28 people in the modern world than I do
0:08:30 with Spanish conquistadors from 300
0:08:32 years ago now I'm not saying I bear no
0:08:35 responsibility for the Bloodshed of the
0:08:38 past but I would say we all bear that
0:08:41 responsibility and that's something I
0:08:43 would say that something like the
0:08:44 conception of original sin yeah that's
0:08:46 the point of difference to be honest I
0:08:48 would disagree with that point like as a
0:08:50 Muslim there is a verse no Quran says
0:08:53 that one Soul should not bear the
0:08:55 responsibility of someone else's actions
0:08:57 yeah well that that's the other ethical
0:08:59 complications so can you call me out in
0:09:03 relationship
0:09:05 but it's complicated right because yeah
0:09:08 but because at the same time you do say
0:09:10 and I don't mean you personally but you
0:09:13 know we can say things like Well the
0:09:15 West is not bearing sufficient
0:09:16 responsibility for its Colonial past and
0:09:19 so at some level that kind of devolves
0:09:21 down to the individual so let me let me
0:09:24 kind of rephrase it then I think you
0:09:25 know I think that's more of a left-wing
0:09:27 criticism that's like you know there's
0:09:28 reparations and affirmative action
0:09:30 programs yeah I'm not advocating any of
0:09:32 that and not I even believe in any of
0:09:33 that to be honest with you or me yeah so
0:09:35 what I was putting as an alternative to
0:09:37 that is this is there is this kind of I
0:09:39 would call this maybe an oriental it's a
0:09:41 new orientalist narrative which states
0:09:43 that Islam is incapable of XYZ call it
0:09:45 tolerance Call It Whatever It Is and
0:09:48 look at what's happened in Islamic
0:09:49 history you've got all of these deaths
0:09:51 and you've got all of these kinds of
0:09:52 things are happening comparative to what
0:09:54 we have in the west and what we're
0:09:55 saying is that let's look at what you
0:09:57 have in the west because liberalism was
0:09:58 an ideology that was cited in the 17th
0:10:00 century like I mean really it was
0:10:01 crystallized you know with John Locke
0:10:02 and all those kind of things then and
0:10:04 after liberalism was established in fact
0:10:06 the Constitution and the documents for
0:10:09 founding fathers and stuff like that
0:10:10 were based on the liberal secular
0:10:12 principles even after that you had
0:10:14 Napoleonic Wars even after that you had
0:10:16 colonialism continue you had slavery
0:10:17 continue until 1867 whatever was you
0:10:20 know the American Civil War ended
0:10:22 um so what we're saying is that this
0:10:24 picture of history that you know the
0:10:26 West is best basically this idea because
0:10:28 our ideology can fix all problems it's
0:10:31 not reasonable when you look at the
0:10:33 Historical records I mean one of um one
0:10:35 scholar called Navid Sheikh actually
0:10:36 done a piece it's called body count and
0:10:39 he was counting the amount of people
0:10:41 that died in each civilization and he
0:10:44 put the Western Civilization is the
0:10:46 highest and because you have things like
0:10:47 World War one and World War II and these
0:10:49 things were World War One World War II
0:10:50 were nationalistic conquests they were
0:10:52 not religiously inspired when you can
0:10:54 you can argue to what extent where World
0:10:56 War one was religiously inspired but
0:10:57 certainly Islam didn't was not a main
0:10:59 feature of the 30 million people that
0:11:01 died in World War One or however many
0:11:03 many million people died in order to so
0:11:05 the point is that we're saying is that
0:11:06 and obviously you've got Concepts in the
0:11:08 west like Manifest Destiny and which I
0:11:11 think every single president of the
0:11:12 United States of America lived in
0:11:13 Westwood expansion these kind of things
0:11:15 the point is is that the proposition
0:11:18 that the ideology of the West can fix
0:11:21 our problems this is what we have an
0:11:22 issue with because what we're saying is
0:11:24 that if we look at the historical record
0:11:25 there is no evidence of that in fact
0:11:28 what has shown us is that there's more
0:11:29 Bloodshed individualism has caused More
0:11:31 Death like with all due respect I know
0:11:34 that you you do cherish individuals I'm
0:11:36 not saying everything is bad about it
0:11:37 but there's when when you have a society
0:11:39 deplete of a communitarian ethic
0:11:42 is bereft of a communitarian ethic then
0:11:45 you can have these issues and so these
0:11:48 are conversations and I think you are
0:11:49 moving towards a communitarianism your
0:11:51 newest book you're talking about
0:11:52 institutions and these kind of things
0:11:53 and the respectful tradition and these
0:11:55 kind of things I'm not sure if I'm
0:11:57 reading you correctly but
0:11:58 these are the kinds of conversations I
0:12:00 think we need to have but on that point
0:12:02 I think
0:12:03 I don't want this to be interrogative