The Heart of Islam: Security and Peace in the Holy Land (2021-05-19) #

0:00:10 [Music]
0:00:14 and sisters
0:00:15 and friends and welcome to the sapience
0:00:18 institute live stream where we're
0:00:21 talking about the heart
0:00:22 of islam security and peace
0:00:25 in the holy land this is a very
0:00:28 critical and contemporary topic
0:00:32 and it's really resonating in the hearts
0:00:35 and minds of
0:00:36 every single human being because any
0:00:39 sincere
0:00:41 and true human being someone who's in
0:00:44 touch with the
0:00:46 natural disposition will basically be
0:00:49 very worried
0:00:50 and in anguish about the suffering
0:00:54 of their fellow human beings and the
0:00:57 kind
0:00:58 of context of today's discussion
0:01:01 is to really talk about values
0:01:04 and to talk about a worldview and an
0:01:07 approach
0:01:08 that is important to
0:01:11 to facilitate peace and security
0:01:16 in the holy land and obviously at
0:01:19 sapiens institute
0:01:20 our focus is to share
0:01:24 and defend islam intellectually and
0:01:26 academically
0:01:27 and to develop others to do so the same
0:01:30 and it's very critical that we use these
0:01:33 contemporary issues
0:01:35 in order to basically articulate a
0:01:37 positive
0:01:39 intellectual and compassionate case for
0:01:42 the islamic tradition
0:01:44 and of course by extension islamic
0:01:46 values
0:01:47 and before i bring on my guests
0:01:50 i want to basically just summarize
0:01:53 something very important concerning
0:01:55 the islamic worldview and islamic
0:02:00 values because when you look at the kind
0:02:03 of
0:02:03 intellectual foundations of the islamic
0:02:07 tradition and you look at its
0:02:09 values of justice and compassion
0:02:12 and fairness and mercy and so on and so
0:02:15 forth
0:02:16 you will understand that it is
0:02:19 something that needs to be put onto the
0:02:21 table with regards to
0:02:24 having a discussion in order to
0:02:27 facilitate that much needed security and
0:02:30 peace
0:02:31 not just in the region that we're going
0:02:32 to be talking about but
0:02:34 all around the world and it's from that
0:02:36 perspective
0:02:38 that we start today's discussion but to
0:02:41 bring this
0:02:42 to light and to the forefront of your
0:02:44 mind i want you all to understand that
0:02:47 allah says in the quran about the
0:02:49 prophet sallallahu alaihi
0:02:51 wasallam that he was sent
0:02:56 for no other reason if you like
0:02:59 except as a mercy for the world allah
0:03:02 says
0:03:03 and we have sent you o muhammad
0:03:05 sallallahu
0:03:06 alaihi wasallam not but as a mercy
0:03:09 for the worlds and the prophet muhammad
0:03:12 upon him peace also said
0:03:13 in an authentic tradition narrated by
0:03:16 bukhari
0:03:17 in tariq al-kabir that he said love
0:03:20 for humanity for the people what you
0:03:23 love for yourself
0:03:24 the arabic here is not
0:03:28 not your brother that's another
0:03:29 prophetic tradition this authentic
0:03:31 tradition talks about the people
0:03:33 and what is loving for humanity what
0:03:35 what you love for yourself actually mean
0:03:38 well according to the likes of anawi the
0:03:41 classical scholar
0:03:42 the maliki scholar
0:03:46 they basically said that this means that
0:03:49 you are committed to the goodness and
0:03:52 guidance of old people
0:03:54 so this is a kind of default position
0:03:55 when it comes to islamic tradition
0:03:57 we are committed to the goodness and
0:03:59 guidance
0:04:00 for all people but specifically when it
0:04:03 comes to islamic values
0:04:04 when we look into history and we see
0:04:07 when these islamic
0:04:08 values were implemented in history we
0:04:11 see something very special about the
0:04:13 islamic intellectual tradition about the
0:04:15 islamic world view
0:04:17 and for instance when you see islamic
0:04:20 spain
0:04:21 when the muslims came into islamic spain
0:04:24 in around 7-11
0:04:26 there were many sources that really
0:04:28 indicate that
0:04:30 the situation of the jewish people
0:04:33 wasn't very positive it was actually
0:04:35 quite negative
0:04:37 and the jewish community was severely
0:04:40 oppressed
0:04:40 by whom by the catholic power at that
0:04:44 time
0:04:45 and for example if you look at the
0:04:47 proceedings of the fourth council of
0:04:49 toledo in 633
0:04:51 ce it states the following we decree
0:04:55 that the sons and daughters of the jews
0:04:58 should be separated from the company of
0:05:00 their parents
0:05:01 in order that they should not become
0:05:02 further entangled in their devotion
0:05:04 deviation
0:05:05 and entrusted either to monasteries or
0:05:08 to christian
0:05:09 god-fearing men and women in order that
0:05:13 they could learn from their way of life
0:05:14 to venerate their faith
0:05:16 and educate educated on better things
0:05:19 progress in their morals as well as
0:05:20 their faith basically what
0:05:22 this council was basically saying the
0:05:24 catholic power at the time was basically
0:05:26 saying is remove
0:05:27 jewish children away from jews and give
0:05:30 them
0:05:30 to christians in order to learn the
0:05:32 christian way of life
0:05:34 and this kind of false conversions were
0:05:37 were extremely extremely oppressive but
0:05:40 when the muslims
0:05:42 that implemented you know the
0:05:44 foundations of islam
0:05:46 implemented the true sublime values of
0:05:48 islam they basically liberated all
0:05:50 people
0:05:51 and in particular in this context our
0:05:53 jewish brothers
0:05:54 and sisters in humanity for example zion
0:05:58 zohar
0:05:58 a jewish american historian he confirms
0:06:02 the appreciation of the jews
0:06:04 for the muslim arrival in spain he says
0:06:08 thus when muslims crossed the straits of
0:06:10 gibraltar from north africa in 711 ce
0:06:14 and invaded the iberian peninsula jews
0:06:18 welcomed them as liberators from
0:06:20 christian persecution
0:06:21 and this is not just a historical
0:06:23 accident brothers and sisters
0:06:25 it is not a historical accident
0:06:28 what we see from the islamic tradition
0:06:31 we see that this
0:06:32 is based on the values of the prophet
0:06:34 muhammad upon him be peace
0:06:35 think about this think about it from a
0:06:37 kind of intellectual and
0:06:39 ethical perspective because the prophet
0:06:42 muhammad according to ibn hisham who is
0:06:45 an islamic historian he narrates the
0:06:48 text of the treaty of medina
0:06:50 and listen to the treaty of medina
0:06:51 medina was
0:06:53 the kind of place where the prophet saw
0:06:55 allah implemented
0:06:57 the social values of islam the political
0:07:00 values of islam
0:07:01 the the the foundations of islam
0:07:04 and ensured peace justice and
0:07:08 fairness for all peoples and this is
0:07:09 what the the
0:07:11 treaty of medina actually says in the
0:07:14 name of allah the compassionate
0:07:16 the merciful this agreement of allah's
0:07:19 prophet muhammad
0:07:20 sallallahu alaihi wasallam shall apply
0:07:23 to the migrants
0:07:24 quraish the citizens of yathrib
0:07:27 who have accepted islam and all such
0:07:30 people who are in agreement with the
0:07:32 above mentioned bodies
0:07:33 and side with them in war those who are
0:07:36 a party to this agreement shall be
0:07:38 treated as a body
0:07:40 separate from all those who are not a
0:07:41 party to this agreement so there's a
0:07:43 concept of citizenship here from that
0:07:45 perspective
0:07:46 and listen to what it says it is
0:07:48 incumbent
0:07:49 on all the muslims to help and extend
0:07:53 sympathetic treatment to the jews who
0:07:55 have entered into an agreement with us
0:07:58 neither an oppression of any type should
0:08:01 be perpetrated on them
0:08:03 nor should their enemy be helped against
0:08:05 them allahu akbar
0:08:07 beautiful treaty of the prophet muhammad
0:08:12 and this is very important because
0:08:15 throughout history when these values
0:08:16 were actually implemented and these
0:08:18 values
0:08:18 come from an intellectual foundation
0:08:20 when these values were implemented
0:08:22 we see even kind of testimony
0:08:26 from jewish influentials and historians
0:08:30 that articulate the kind of power of
0:08:33 these values
0:08:34 for example from a 9th century jewish
0:08:37 source
0:08:37 is called cepha it basically says
0:08:42 the people in whose hands the temple is
0:08:44 today
0:08:45 namely the muslims have made it into a
0:08:48 choice excellent honorable place of
0:08:50 worship
0:08:51 they say let us worship the one god who
0:08:53 created heaven and earth
0:08:54 to whom the creatures belong into the
0:08:57 coming of the messiah
0:08:58 and on that day the true worship will be
0:09:00 renewed and we
0:09:02 and will be acceptable before god now
0:09:05 this was in jerusalem so
0:09:07 the jewish people felt safe in jerusalem
0:09:10 and this is why you know this kind of
0:09:12 orientalist critique that muslims came
0:09:15 with a sword and all of this stuff and
0:09:17 forced
0:09:17 everybody at the point of the sword is
0:09:20 actually
0:09:21 a a refuted notion now in academia for
0:09:25 example
0:09:25 even as the early 1920s delay
0:09:29 o'leary who was one of the leading
0:09:31 authorities on the history of islam in
0:09:32 the 20th century
0:09:33 he was compelled to state the following
0:09:36 he said history makes it clear however
0:09:38 that the legend of fanatical muslims
0:09:41 sweeping through the world and forcing
0:09:42 islam
0:09:43 the point of the sword upon conquered
0:09:45 races is one of the most fantastically
0:09:47 absurd myths
0:09:48 that historians have ever repeated
0:09:52 even as triton the author of the widely
0:09:54 acclaimed
0:09:55 caliphs and the non-muslim subjects he
0:09:57 also echoed something very similar he
0:09:58 said
0:09:59 the picture of the muslim soldiers
0:10:01 advancing with the sword in one hand
0:10:03 and the quran in the other is quite
0:10:05 false
0:10:06 and it's very important to talk about
0:10:07 the relation between muslims and jews
0:10:09 from a
0:10:10 kind of social political value
0:10:11 perspective because
0:10:13 this is how we're advancing islam here
0:10:15 to show
0:10:16 islam is an intellectual tradition
0:10:18 that's based on truth
0:10:19 and to show that whatever comes from
0:10:21 truth is true
0:10:22 we have to show its practical
0:10:24 manifestations as well especially
0:10:26 in today's contemporary context and when
0:10:28 you look at for example
0:10:30 jewish travelers or jewish historians
0:10:32 and jewish influentials throughout the
0:10:33 ages
0:10:34 they've said nothing but good things
0:10:36 about the islamic tradition for example
0:10:38 benjamin of teluda a spanish jew who
0:10:41 traveled to baghdad in 1168
0:10:43 this is how he described iraqi jewry
0:10:46 he said in baghdad there are about 40
0:10:49 000
0:10:50 jews and they dwell in security
0:10:52 prosperity
0:10:54 and honor under the great caliph and
0:10:56 amongst them are the great sages
0:10:58 the heads of the academies engage in the
0:11:00 study of the law
0:11:01 you also had an italian rabbi obedia
0:11:04 yara de vetkenoro
0:11:06 he traveled to jerusalem in 1468 and he
0:11:09 wrote a letter to his father
0:11:11 telling him about the country and its
0:11:12 people listen and contrast this
0:11:14 which with what is happening today he
0:11:17 said the jews are not persecuted by the
0:11:19 arabs in these parts
0:11:20 i have traveled to the country in its
0:11:22 length and breadth and none
0:11:24 none of them has put an obstacle in my
0:11:26 way they are very kind to strangers
0:11:28 particularly to anyone who does not know
0:11:30 the language and if they see many jews
0:11:32 together
0:11:33 they are not annoyed by it in my opinion
0:11:35 an intelligent man
0:11:36 versed in political science might easily
0:11:39 raise himself to be the chief of the
0:11:40 jews
0:11:41 as well as of the arabs another italian
0:11:45 jew a jewish traveler david de rossi he
0:11:47 traveled to the ottoman empire in the
0:11:49 16th century
0:11:50 and he said something very similar he
0:11:52 said the exile here is not like in our
0:11:54 homeland
0:11:54 the turks hold respectable jews in
0:11:57 esteem
0:11:58 here in alexandria egypt jews of the
0:12:02 chief officers and administrators of the
0:12:03 customs
0:12:04 and the king's revenues no injuries are
0:12:07 perpetrated against them in all of the
0:12:08 empire
0:12:09 let's focus now on jerusalem karen
0:12:11 armstrong who's a popular historian
0:12:13 she says something very interesting
0:12:15 which is probably the topic of our
0:12:16 discussion today really
0:12:18 she says the muslims had established a
0:12:20 system
0:12:21 that enabled jews christians and muslims
0:12:24 to live in jerusalem together for the
0:12:26 first
0:12:26 time so i would argue brothers and
0:12:28 sisters from a theological perspective
0:12:31 the reason muslims achieved this is
0:12:33 because they followed the quran
0:12:35 and what does allah say allah says allah
0:12:37 has promised
0:12:38 those among you who believe and do
0:12:41 righteous good deeds
0:12:42 that he would certainly grant them
0:12:43 succession in the land
0:12:45 as he has granted it to those before
0:12:47 them and that he will grant them
0:12:49 authority to practice the religion
0:12:51 which he has chosen for them and also
0:12:53 what the
0:12:54 answer is about justice all you have
0:12:55 believed stand
0:12:58 firmly for justice as witnesses to allah
0:13:00 even though be against yourselves
0:13:02 or your parents or your kin be rich or
0:13:05 poor
0:13:05 allah is better protected to both so
0:13:08 follow not the lusts
0:13:09 lest you avoid justice also allah says
0:13:12 in the quran
0:13:13 or you have believed believe stand
0:13:16 firmly for justice as just witnesses
0:13:18 and let not the end stand firmly for
0:13:20 allah as just witnesses
0:13:22 and let not the enmity and hatred of
0:13:24 others make you avoid
0:13:25 justice be just and that is nearer to
0:13:28 your piety
0:13:29 and be conscious of allah very allah is
0:13:31 well acquainted of what you do and this
0:13:34 is very significant brothers and sisters
0:13:35 for us to introduce it this way
0:13:37 because from the sapiens institute
0:13:39 perspective we believe in the truth of
0:13:41 islam
0:13:41 and we want to share that truth with
0:13:43 wisdom and with compassion
0:13:45 intellectually and academically to
0:13:47 everybody this is where
0:13:48 this is how we want to see the world
0:13:50 where people hear the message of islam
0:13:52 and where muslims are able to articulate
0:13:54 islam
0:13:54 intellectually and academically so when
0:13:56 you understand that
0:13:58 the islamic world view the existence of
0:14:00 god
0:14:01 the proof of the quran the proof of the
0:14:03 prophet muhammad upon repeats these
0:14:04 things are truths
0:14:06 that they are truth then you'll realize
0:14:08 whatever comes from these truths
0:14:10 is actually true and today is a
0:14:12 manifestation of that meaning what i've
0:14:14 explained about the manifestation of
0:14:16 these islamic values coming from the
0:14:17 islamic tradition
0:14:19 will bring truth peace and prosperity
0:14:22 and this is echoed not just by me
0:14:24 obviously but by academics
0:14:26 by jewish historians and by secular
0:14:29 non-muslim academics too and in this
0:14:32 slide it's very important to introduce
0:14:33 our view for amazing guests
0:14:35 we have with us i'm going to bring them
0:14:36 on board right now we have
0:14:38 our beloved dr uthman latif
0:14:42 and we have a beloved hussein i'm going
0:14:44 to allow them to introduce themselves so
0:14:46 i'm going to
0:14:46 let them come on for a few minutes to
0:14:48 speak about who they are and their
0:14:50 background then i'm going to ask them
0:14:51 some
0:14:52 very specific questions because to be
0:14:53 honest about the contemporary reality
0:14:56 this is not my expertise that's why we
0:14:57 brought experts today our beloved dr
0:14:59 uthman latif who's got a phd
0:15:02 uh concerning jerusalem and history
0:15:05 and he's done post doctoral studies in
0:15:07 dehumanization
0:15:08 authorization and we have our beloved
0:15:10 hussein who is the co-editor
0:15:13 of five pillars the only muslim online
0:15:16 site
0:15:17 that is was it accredited i forgot the
0:15:19 word for it now
0:15:20 but get your muted
0:15:24 independently regulated that's the one
0:15:27 independently regulated
0:15:28 and you know i'm a huge supporter of the
0:15:30 work and of that sector
0:15:32 it's important that we support the
0:15:33 sector in order to facilitate
0:15:36 to facilitate defending islam and
0:15:37 muslims from a media perspective because
0:15:39 as you know
0:15:40 based on even non-muslim research that
0:15:42 it's uh
0:15:43 quite negative considering the media
0:15:45 space although although i have to say
0:15:47 it's been quite surprising what i've
0:15:49 seen because in the news considering the
0:15:50 current conflict
0:15:52 that there have been a lot of media
0:15:53 outlets that have actually basically
0:15:55 you know started to show a little bit
0:15:58 more truth
0:15:58 rather than falsehood but anyway let's
0:16:00 start with doctor's manatee introduce
0:16:02 yourself then we'd get deleted to
0:16:03 introduce bismillah
0:16:05 assalamu alaikum it's very difficult to
0:16:07 introduce yourself actually
0:16:08 um but i would say alhamdulillah it's uh
0:16:10 it's a blessing to be you know
0:16:12 within the company of such esteemed
0:16:13 guests as yourselves um
0:16:15 so i think people of course who have
0:16:16 followed my work know that i'm a
0:16:18 medieval historian i
0:16:19 i write on medieval history i have my
0:16:22 first book published a cutting edge of
0:16:23 the poet's sword
0:16:25 i have another book coming out now
0:16:26 inshallah very soon in a few months by
0:16:28 springer
0:16:29 uh which retaps it in fact very much to
0:16:30 our discourse today which is entitled
0:16:32 navigating war descent and empathy
0:16:35 seeing our others in darkened spaces i'm
0:16:38 also
0:16:38 a senior researcher for the sapience
0:16:40 institute and a lot of my work there is
0:16:42 is a bit different but it's uh it's
0:16:44 extremely important also
0:16:46 looking at kind of theological issues
0:16:48 and and concerned with
0:16:50 uh you know arguing against the
0:16:51 detractors of islam
0:16:53 and so aside from that of course i'm
0:16:55 just a human being like everybody
0:16:57 every one of us and uh and we ask
0:17:01 in our faith
0:17:12 co-founder and deputy editor of five
0:17:14 pillars news
0:17:15 um by practice and in theory and on
0:17:18 paper i'm a journalist
0:17:19 though i've been honest with you i've
0:17:20 not done much investigative journalism
0:17:22 of late that's an admission
0:17:24 i've had writers blocked for a couple of
0:17:26 years but
0:17:27 yes i'm a journalist i have been for the
0:17:29 last 10 years i've graduated with a ba
0:17:31 politics
0:17:32 ba in politics specializing in middle
0:17:35 east
0:17:35 and north african current affairs and
0:17:38 when i've done my
0:17:39 postgraduate in newspaper journalism i
0:17:41 then very quickly
0:17:43 navigated towards british and western
0:17:46 foreign policy within the middle east
0:17:47 area and north africa and here i am with
0:17:50 you today very honored
0:17:52 and looking forward to a robust
0:17:54 conversation
0:17:55 as saiyans never fails to deliver
0:17:58 alhamdulillah
0:18:03 so let's start well it was on mic oh it
0:18:05 was on me apologies so let's go first
0:18:07 straight to
0:18:07 dr up my latif so what how would you
0:18:10 summarize
0:18:11 the current situation in the holy land
0:18:13 at the moment the palestinians and the
0:18:15 israelis
0:18:16 and from a kind of historical
0:18:17 perspective based on your research and
0:18:19 even your research on authorization
0:18:22 why why and how what is going on how did
0:18:26 this happen why has it happened
0:18:28 and maybe you could start you know
0:18:29 suggesting some kind of
0:18:31 forward so bismillah
0:18:35 it is of course uh with with a lot of
0:18:37 heavy-heartedness that we speak about
0:18:38 this issue because what we're seeing
0:18:40 of course have seen have had uh you know
0:18:43 for four months now but remember of
0:18:44 course that this is not a conflict that
0:18:46 began just with sheikh jarrah
0:18:48 um it's something that's dating back in
0:18:50 many many decades
0:18:51 uh you know for for decades of course
0:18:53 have the muslims and palestinians in
0:18:55 fact christians and muslims
0:18:56 suffered from settler colonialism uh
0:18:59 this goes back to of course the the
0:19:01 british mandate
0:19:02 to the uh to the the words of and the
0:19:05 actions of of general allenby to the uh
0:19:08 1948 nakaba
0:19:10 and in fact the the the what we're
0:19:11 seeing in sheikh is just a reenactment
0:19:14 of the nakba which in fact hasn't ended
0:19:16 because indigenous palestinians are
0:19:18 still being forced you know from their
0:19:19 homes
0:19:20 this is of course ethnic cleansing that
0:19:22 we're seeing in the world is seeing
0:19:24 as you were speaking i was reminded in
0:19:26 fact what i was teaching my family in
0:19:28 fact just the other day was about the
0:19:29 fact that
0:19:30 history that you of course you've
0:19:32 mentioned so many examples of hamza
0:19:34 about history and historical examples
0:19:35 and anecdotes of
0:19:37 of muslim civilization um
0:19:40 you know on on may the 9th uh just two
0:19:42 weeks or two weeks back
0:19:44 may the 9th the world celebrated the
0:19:46 centennial
0:19:47 of the birth of of sophia shoal who in
0:19:50 fact was born
0:19:51 on may the 9th uh 1921
0:19:54 uh those of you who have followed my
0:19:56 work know that i speak a lot about her
0:19:58 i've written about her i've included her
0:20:00 in my even
0:20:01 acknowledge her in my book in fact as
0:20:03 well um
0:20:05 and and israel in fact celebrated her
0:20:08 germany poland celebrated her and her
0:20:10 achievements and here's a remarkable
0:20:12 paradigm and archetypal character
0:20:14 uh who was part of the white rose
0:20:16 movement who
0:20:17 fought tirelessly um you know as a just
0:20:20 21 22 year old young woman
0:20:22 to campaign against the the forced
0:20:25 expulsion of jews
0:20:27 from their homes in in nazi germany
0:20:30 and i thought about the tragic irony of
0:20:32 history that here we have you know the
0:20:34 world is celebrating that paradigm of of
0:20:36 rescuing
0:20:37 um and at the same time of course
0:20:39 they're they're forcibly evicting
0:20:41 uh you know those palestinians from
0:20:42 their homes on the same date at the same
0:20:45 time
0:20:46 from sheikh jarrah the other of course
0:20:48 uh
0:20:49 historical interesting uh in observation
0:20:53 we could make
0:20:54 about sheikh jarrah itself as you know
0:20:56 srikanzo was mentioning about
0:20:58 about medieval jerusalem here we have
0:21:01 sheikh jarrah named of course after
0:21:03 hussaim dean al-jarrahi
0:21:05 who was the the physician of salahidin
0:21:07 al-ayubi
0:21:08 in the 12th century uh salahuddin of
0:21:11 course again was a paradigm not only of
0:21:13 of muslim resistance against crusader
0:21:16 rule
0:21:16 but also of of justice because of course
0:21:19 that
0:21:20 whenever the christians would take power
0:21:22 in jerusalem
0:21:23 uh they would always expel the jews from
0:21:25 that city and when salah hadin
0:21:27 and those who came after him took power
0:21:29 from the christians
0:21:31 they would always invite the jews back
0:21:32 into jerusalem and again that taps into
0:21:34 the paradigm of justice that you spoke
0:21:36 of before
0:21:37 but in jarahi was the physician of
0:21:40 salahadeen but
0:21:41 interesting to note that so was
0:21:43 maimonides and maimonides was also the
0:21:45 physician of
0:21:46 salahadeen when one of these being the
0:21:48 second moses uh
0:21:49 the most celebrated rabbi in judaism and
0:21:52 the most celebrated after moses himself
0:21:54 is yusuf even by numerous
0:21:57 himself who was a physician of of salah
0:22:00 and therefore you know we have a
0:22:01 remarkable history
0:22:03 founded upon you know paradigms and
0:22:05 principles of justice
0:22:07 but this conflict what we're seeing now
0:22:08 of course has its has its
0:22:10 has its history uh every day for the
0:22:12 palestinians
0:22:13 is a nakba every day for the
0:22:15 palestinians is a catastrophe
0:22:18 every day is a day of of forced
0:22:20 evictions forced expulsions
0:22:23 land theft home theft uh victimization
0:22:26 brutality
0:22:27 uh othering dehumanization all of these
0:22:30 in fact
0:22:31 are are very sadly entrenched within
0:22:34 within israeli zionist psyche
0:22:37 and are played out against against the
0:22:39 palestinians that they're always
0:22:40 living there and so therefore we're
0:22:42 seeing effect on microcosm
0:22:44 but there is a macrocosm that we have to
0:22:47 of course pay our attention to
0:22:48 and so therefore that's what's happened
0:22:50 in in most recent most recent weeks so
0:22:54 in terms of the kind of islamic
0:22:56 perspective
0:22:58 in terms of understanding islam
0:23:01 from its basis and also from its values
0:23:04 that manifest themselves
0:23:06 you know what would you say to people
0:23:08 trying to understand this conflict and
0:23:09 understand
0:23:10 solutions of this conflict what would
0:23:12 you say with regards to
0:23:14 you know islam in terms of specifically
0:23:16 what it has to say about othering what
0:23:18 it has to say about justice where it has
0:23:19 to say about
0:23:20 these contemporary problems because
0:23:22 let's be honest you know you can't
0:23:24 divorce ideas away from practice away
0:23:27 from society away from politics
0:23:29 and they have a huge impact they may be
0:23:31 in the ivory towers one day but they get
0:23:32 filtered down on a practical level so
0:23:35 what is islam saying about this whole
0:23:36 thing how can we echoing the words of
0:23:38 karen armstrong how how can we create
0:23:40 that environment where
0:23:41 everyone lives together peacefully
0:23:43 because that's what everyone wants we
0:23:44 don't want an expansion
0:23:45 of everybody we want everyone to live
0:23:47 peacefully and harmoniously
0:23:49 like it did in the past so your comments
0:23:52 on that doctor
0:23:53 well really i mean you're obviously
0:23:55 familiar with the fact that i authored
0:23:56 the book
0:23:57 entitled on being human how islam
0:23:59 addresses othering dehumanization
0:24:01 empathy this book was authored
0:24:03 following the the terrorist attacks in
0:24:05 christchurch new zealand the book in
0:24:07 fact was launched in christchurch
0:24:09 um and the book in fact was a response
0:24:12 to a lot of what we're seeing in the
0:24:13 world today of othering but also to
0:24:15 understand what does islam say about
0:24:17 those
0:24:17 those currents of dehumanization and
0:24:19 othering um
0:24:21 really the the the way i begin in fact
0:24:24 the book is by speaking about the fact
0:24:25 that all of us
0:24:26 as human beings we have a we have a
0:24:29 mental canvas
0:24:30 you know and on our mental canvases we
0:24:32 paint all sorts of
0:24:34 pictures and paintings and different
0:24:35 things about other people
0:24:37 but if we are painting on our mental
0:24:39 canvases using
0:24:40 white brushes and broad strokes and
0:24:43 disallowing
0:24:44 uh you know finer grades of nuances and
0:24:48 finer grades of distinction
0:24:49 and we're disallowing identity creation
0:24:52 then of course what we're left with
0:24:54 uh in our mental canvases from what
0:24:56 we're seeing and
0:24:57 of others is is simply a
0:25:00 characterization
0:25:01 and that's really what what othering is
0:25:03 it's to characterize somebody
0:25:05 uh to disallow uh perspective building
0:25:08 to disallow identification to put
0:25:10 everybody as
0:25:11 as one kind of a mesh and then we judge
0:25:13 them by based upon
0:25:14 that sense of singular grouping
0:25:17 uh which really of course is is tragic
0:25:20 because uh i mean just to speak about
0:25:23 you know the state of uh
0:25:24 of israel itself remember of course that
0:25:26 the jews themselves
0:25:28 were victims of very very intense
0:25:32 extreme uh examples of othering and
0:25:35 dehumanization
0:25:36 in poland in nazi germany um you know
0:25:39 i've visited auschwitz amber canal i've
0:25:41 delivered lectures in auschwitz and by
0:25:43 canal
0:25:44 uh i've written extensively in fact i've
0:25:47 i've
0:25:47 i've written a lot you can read my work
0:25:49 even on sapience institute websites
0:25:51 um so i have i have quite an
0:25:53 understanding about about these things
0:25:56 but one thing i would say is that you
0:25:57 know before before hitler even came to
0:26:00 power 1933 you had
0:26:02 years of social death and social dying
0:26:05 the jews were experiencing a social
0:26:08 dying meaning they were castigated
0:26:10 as as worthless others as
0:26:13 almost like non-human entities and so
0:26:16 therefore
0:26:16 this kind of tendency of of castigating
0:26:20 of creating
0:26:21 uh others as being the the worst of
0:26:25 yourself
0:26:25 it is to impute upon others the worst of
0:26:28 yourself and so
0:26:30 you know jews in fact were called rats
0:26:32 and vermin
0:26:33 and cockroaches uh as being gypsies as
0:26:36 being homeless
0:26:37 today of course in palestine the
0:26:39 palestinians are called
0:26:41 homeless savages are called gypsies
0:26:44 you know are called are the other
0:26:46 therefore and this in fact is is a is a
0:26:49 current
0:26:49 throughout human society civilization
0:26:52 because
0:26:52 and one thing that i discuss in my book
0:26:54 on being human are examples you know
0:26:56 from many examples of human genocide
0:26:58 including of course rwanda
0:27:00 as well um the way that we have to
0:27:03 understand this of course is therefore
0:27:04 that's the that's that's the first the
0:27:06 beginning point it's what are we
0:27:08 creating
0:27:09 of others and remember of course that
0:27:11 what the other is
0:27:12 is a self-effacing i describe it as a
0:27:14 self-effacing
0:27:15 it is it is a doing of an injustice unto
0:27:18 oneself
0:27:19 before projecting that onto another
0:27:20 person it is you
0:27:22 you know you kind of self typifying
0:27:24 yourself
0:27:25 uh before you typify the other person
0:27:28 and so therefore i think it begins
0:27:29 therefore with with kind of a cognitive
0:27:32 mental self-reflection going back and
0:27:34 thinking what is it we're making
0:27:35 of ourselves and making over the people
0:27:38 that's creating this
0:27:39 the sense of discord um that's that's of
0:27:42 course
0:27:43 one thing to think about what is it that
0:27:45 we're creating of other people
0:27:47 are we othering are we dehumanizing and
0:27:50 remember of course that
0:27:51 uh social death and social dying that's
0:27:54 the starting point would always be
0:27:55 therefore othering
0:27:57 ostracizing castigating denying
0:28:00 vilifying but then of course when that
0:28:02 is unchecked
0:28:03 uh it would lead to dehumanization it
0:28:05 would lead to seeing not those people
0:28:08 as as worthy human entities anymore
0:28:11 uh in fact uh it's a very good book to
0:28:13 read called
0:28:14 facing the extreme by zavete and
0:28:16 todoravu i i quote extensively in my
0:28:18 book on being human
0:28:20 where he says that now the jews in the
0:28:22 holocaust were called things like cargo
0:28:24 and items meaning they weren't allowed
0:28:26 to have names they weren't allowed to
0:28:28 have that sense of personality but that
0:28:30 of course
0:28:30 is equally even more troubling uh
0:28:33 because of the book i'm reading early
0:28:35 which is of course this book here
0:28:36 called the end of judaism and ethical
0:28:39 tradition betrayed hajj admired the
0:28:40 earth in fact was an auschwitz survivor
0:28:42 and it can he makes these parallels
0:28:44 between what he witnessed
0:28:46 you know in in nazi germany and with
0:28:48 what is being played out today with the
0:28:50 palestinians
0:28:51 this is brilliant this yeah doctors just
0:28:53 want to bring delhi now because
0:28:55 what you know for those who don't know
0:28:57 uh dr uthmanity's book on being human
0:29:00 can be downloaded for free on the
0:29:01 sapience institute website
0:29:02 go to sapience institute forward slash
0:29:05 books it's an amazing
0:29:07 uh book that goes into the islamic
0:29:08 tradition talks about prophetic empathy
0:29:10 and mercy and how islam is a barrier to
0:29:13 these types of othering and
0:29:15 dehumanization that
0:29:17 the islamic tradition dignifies human
0:29:18 beings now from this perspective it's
0:29:20 great that you've set this kind of
0:29:21 backdrop
0:29:23 now we could juxtapose what you've said
0:29:25 and what happened with
0:29:26 nancy in nazi germany to the jews with
0:29:28 what's happening now in palestine so
0:29:30 dili
0:29:31 one would argue right that what happened
0:29:34 to the jews
0:29:35 in nazi germany is now happening to the
0:29:37 palestinians in palestine please comment
0:29:39 on this and what what do you think is
0:29:41 the way forward
0:29:44 i mean that analogy has been made by
0:29:46 various commentators unfortunately
0:29:48 even that specific wording to liken
0:29:50 what's happening to the palestinians
0:29:52 to what happened to the jews in poland
0:29:55 and in german germany during world war
0:29:56 ii and prior to that even to make that
0:29:59 comparison hamza would be problematic
0:30:00 and seen as problematic by many
0:30:02 because we're living in such a time
0:30:05 where the language and the discourse
0:30:06 surrounding this particular
0:30:08 conflict and may i say a
0:30:09 disproportionately one-sided conflict
0:30:11 for the best part of 73 years is that
0:30:15 the language has been dominated by one
0:30:17 side right
0:30:19 so to suggest that the palestinians are
0:30:20 experiencing
0:30:22 what the jewish experience under the
0:30:24 nazis
0:30:25 would then suggest that the israeli
0:30:27 authorities at the moment
0:30:29 are similar to the nazis and this is
0:30:32 something that unfortunately has been
0:30:33 conflated by some
0:30:34 within within at least the mainstream
0:30:36 spectrum that's something that could be
0:30:38 uh you know anti-semitic so we want to
0:30:41 make absolutely clear from the very
0:30:42 onset
0:30:43 that any critique of the zionist
0:30:45 ideology or zionist movement or zionist
0:30:48 principles and values of epistemology
0:30:50 is done from the perspective of a
0:30:53 political ideology which is manifested
0:30:55 into
0:30:56 a secular nation state today um
0:30:59 as dr ultima native rightly uh mentioned
0:31:02 in his opening uh
0:31:04 segment is that this predates
0:31:07 it predates the oslo and camp david
0:31:10 accords it predates
0:31:11 the 73 war it predates the six day war
0:31:14 it predates
0:31:15 even anakwa it goes all the way back to
0:31:18 one could argue
0:31:19 um even before the british mandate to do
0:31:22 with the site's pico agreement
0:31:25 it could some would argue that it could
0:31:26 even predate before that
0:31:28 where there was where the the ideology
0:31:31 of
0:31:32 zionism had began in the mid to late
0:31:34 19th century
0:31:36 formalized in 1896 by theodore herzl in
0:31:39 the jewish chronicle in a pamphlet
0:31:41 and this was a political ideology at a
0:31:43 time when nationalism in europe
0:31:44 especially ethno-nationalism which is
0:31:47 now obviously mixed with
0:31:49 jewish theologies you have to understand
0:31:50 zionism from that perspective
0:31:52 for those of you who have a cursed
0:31:54 understanding of the ottoman empire and
0:31:56 its eventual collapse or decline
0:31:59 was that nationalism as an ideology
0:32:01 started flaring up in different parts of
0:32:03 the state
0:32:04 all the way from the balkans to greece
0:32:06 to armenia and so forth
0:32:08 and one could argue some of it was
0:32:10 organically i
0:32:11 would say this was something that was
0:32:12 instigated externally but however you
0:32:14 see it
0:32:15 the 19th century was a century of
0:32:18 nationalism where nationalism
0:32:19 was thriving it was seen as an
0:32:21 alternative ideology a shift away from
0:32:23 conventional empires
0:32:24 though the irony is that the true brute
0:32:27 the british and french empire we saw
0:32:28 after world war one but going back to
0:32:30 that
0:32:31 there was this thinking that after
0:32:33 centuries of dehumanization
0:32:36 and being treated as sub-humans in
0:32:39 europe
0:32:39 not just in germany brothers and sisters
0:32:41 this was prevalent in the uk it's
0:32:42 prevalent in france it's probably in
0:32:44 holland and belgium and germany and all
0:32:46 them places across europe
0:32:49 it just manifested in its most ugliest
0:32:51 form under nazi germany
0:32:54 so this discussion of how zionism
0:32:56 ideology began and it's important harms
0:32:58 of people know this is to understand
0:33:00 how it's manifested in terms of policies
0:33:02 and the treatment of palestinians
0:33:04 there's a thinking that as a result of
0:33:06 centuries of systemic oppression
0:33:09 simply for being jewish in religion
0:33:12 and jew by race that the ideology of
0:33:15 zionism shifted away from diaspora
0:33:18 communities residing in exile from the
0:33:21 holy land
0:33:22 in europe it was time to go and
0:33:25 recapture and regain
0:33:27 a land for the jewish people and not
0:33:29 live in exile anymore
0:33:31 which kind of moved away from some
0:33:32 traditional normative thinking
0:33:34 hope that the holy land was not promised
0:33:36 to the jewish people yet
0:33:39 so we're trying to identify when this
0:33:41 ideology of zionism began
0:33:43 it was definitely the 19th century
0:33:45 formalized much later there were even
0:33:47 conversations between
0:33:48 between theodore hustle and khalifa
0:33:52 i know there's many romanticized and
0:33:54 many kind of um
0:33:56 uh dramatized versions of these uh
0:33:59 exchanges
0:34:00 but there was more certainly a
0:34:01 conversation that took place in theodor
0:34:04 from hamid weakest point
0:34:07 of the last islamic polity refused to
0:34:09 give a hand span away
0:34:11 and some narration go that i don't have
0:34:13 to give this to you i'd have to sell
0:34:14 this to you there will come a time where
0:34:15 you will get it
0:34:16 and will cost you nothing another
0:34:18 narration he said that i cannot give you
0:34:19 a hand span of what
0:34:21 the blood and the hard work and the
0:34:22 struggles have done
0:34:25 but we had autumn was lost in world war
0:34:26 one then we had
0:34:28 of course uh prior to that the the sykes
0:34:32 pico
0:34:32 and not like the balfour declaration
0:34:35 then of course we had another british
0:34:37 mandate
0:34:37 a huge migration of jewish people from
0:34:41 europe migrating to palestine
0:34:45 and of course with this ideology it
0:34:49 manifested in the worst of ways when
0:34:51 armed groups then started to wanting to
0:34:53 capture their land
0:34:54 under the british mandate there were
0:34:55 acts of zionist terrorism under the
0:34:57 british mandate
0:34:59 british soldiers and colonial governors
0:35:01 and
0:35:02 and imperial figures were killed in
0:35:04 these conflicts
0:35:05 so it was a case where various armed
0:35:09 groups of
0:35:10 zionist jews from europe were just newly
0:35:12 migrated into
0:35:13 philistine started taking up arms and
0:35:16 committing
0:35:17 acts against of terrorism against the
0:35:19 british mandate
0:35:20 who then kind of i'm very paraphrasing
0:35:23 history here and i don't know
0:35:24 amongst in the presence of mine doesn't
0:35:26 feel right doing this
0:35:29 so then of course the british mandate
0:35:30 had enough therefore yanni we already
0:35:33 promised you this
0:35:34 state so who wants to give it to you you
0:35:36 end up killing us
0:35:37 all and then of course the palestinians
0:35:39 around about 500 000
0:35:41 were forcibly displaced and then forced
0:35:43 out of their homes
0:35:45 to create this new jewish state this new
0:35:48 state of the jewish people
0:35:50 um which sadly was anything but from the
0:35:52 tyrannic
0:35:53 or talmudic values which they which they
0:35:57 should have perhaps based anything on
0:35:58 but the fact of the matter is this
0:36:01 is that that state was formed by a theft
0:36:04 it was it was stolen from the
0:36:06 palestinians it was established from
0:36:08 brute violence
0:36:10 disproportion of violence this issue has
0:36:12 been disproportionate
0:36:13 since the very get-go there was and and
0:36:16 so therefore
0:36:17 you then had a huge migration and
0:36:21 expulsion of
0:36:22 palestinians in their own lands um
0:36:25 heading eastwards towards um the west
0:36:27 bank
0:36:28 and then goes towards what is gaza
0:36:30 bordering
0:36:32 uh egypt um and you know we always see
0:36:35 these kind of comparative
0:36:36 posters whenever the gaza is where
0:36:38 conflict happens when the palestine
0:36:39 israel comes backwards
0:36:41 1940 uh pre-1947 1947 united states
0:36:44 we've all seen them right and roughly
0:36:48 you can see how much land was eventually
0:36:50 taken
0:36:51 through policies that were you know the
0:36:53 fact that human rights watch ambitiously
0:36:56 have recently come out
0:36:57 and said that they were an apartheid
0:36:59 state the fact is the
0:37:01 the trimmings and the signs were there
0:37:02 from the very get-go
0:37:04 right let's put aside the issue of
0:37:06 dehumanization which is as an
0:37:08 absolutely necessary caveat before such
0:37:11 policies
0:37:12 become policies right to otherwise
0:37:14 palestinians
0:37:16 and not necessarily by their faith is to
0:37:19 do with their race being
0:37:20 arabs in fact the zionist ideology being
0:37:23 an ethno
0:37:24 religious nationalist ideology was very
0:37:26 mindful of not necessarily conflating
0:37:28 always this issue with the arabs or
0:37:30 palestinians as one with islam
0:37:32 and that's obviously another
0:37:34 conversation another time
0:37:35 and we've just seen throughout the
0:37:37 decades of the last 73 years since
0:37:42 land being slowly and slowly and slowly
0:37:45 being taken away
0:37:47 illegally through bogus court
0:37:52 court adjudications like the one we find
0:37:54 in
0:37:56 short was basically some properties
0:37:58 within a predominantly
0:38:00 muslim palestinian neighborhood where
0:38:03 some houses and apartments and families
0:38:05 had to pay rent
0:38:06 to these new jewish homeowners because
0:38:10 this land was formerly owned by
0:38:12 jordanian government
0:38:13 but now all of a sudden they declared
0:38:16 themselves to be
0:38:17 the ancestral owners of particular homes
0:38:19 and lands in
0:38:20 general just look at the audacity of
0:38:22 that just look at the audacity of that
0:38:24 imagine you are in your home you are up
0:38:27 keeping this home
0:38:28 in a situation of a brutal occupation
0:38:31 and then come along
0:38:33 illegal armed settlers with the support
0:38:36 of the zionist forces and police force
0:38:38 to say that we are your new landlords
0:38:41 why
0:38:41 because our forefathers 2000 years ago
0:38:43 on this not that you you did not get
0:38:45 this left from the jordanians this is
0:38:46 the audacity
0:38:47 of what the palestinians are having to
0:38:49 experience and this only was come to
0:38:50 light hamza
0:38:51 but we're not talking about the separate
0:38:54 roles the journeys the checkpoints
0:38:56 the daily humiliation the transgression
0:38:58 upon masjid al-aqsa
0:38:59 and even the christian arabs we saw
0:39:02 um emmanuel macron when he went to uh
0:39:06 israel that we went to philistine uh
0:39:08 maybe a year ago
0:39:09 and he got very frustrated at the way
0:39:11 that israeli forces were trying to uh
0:39:14 you know control his movement into
0:39:16 certain holy places he didn't like it
0:39:18 he reacted you know what yes it's very
0:39:21 interesting what you said about
0:39:22 if they followed the torah and the
0:39:25 talmudic injunctions we will not have
0:39:28 this kind of zionist oppressive state
0:39:29 today which is very interesting
0:39:31 i want to tell you a story which would
0:39:32 lead to another question okay so i was
0:39:34 in aksa with
0:39:35 our beloved doctors nearly five six
0:39:38 months ago now i believe
0:39:39 it was a transformative experience and i
0:39:42 remember i was an aksai and i was
0:39:44 actually giving dawa near the dome of
0:39:45 the rock
0:39:46 and were sharing pamphlets and there was
0:39:49 a time was it's actually during this
0:39:51 period where
0:39:52 the jewish people were basically i think
0:39:56 it's not celebrating but it was like the
0:39:58 anniversary of the expulsion of the jews
0:40:00 from the temple mount or something like
0:40:01 that
0:40:02 and i and there was a policy in place
0:40:04 that anyone under the age of 40 or
0:40:05 something
0:40:06 couldn't get into masjid al-aqsa at that
0:40:09 time i wasn't four years old i was i was
0:40:12 younger
0:40:12 and i still wanted to get in somehow to
0:40:15 basically you know
0:40:16 meet the brothers to share islam you
0:40:18 know with with wisdom and
0:40:20 compassionately as you know
0:40:22 and so what we did i was with brother
0:40:24 mohsin a teacher in london
0:40:26 uh in slough i believe yeah he's from
0:40:28 slaughter and we took a taxi
0:40:30 to the wailing wall and we had no idea
0:40:33 where we were then we realized and there
0:40:35 was so many
0:40:36 of you know the the the jewish men there
0:40:40 and i actually went in with all these
0:40:42 like i think probably thousands of
0:40:44 of men i went through the security and i
0:40:46 met a
0:40:47 liberal jewish um online news channel
0:40:51 they're called i forgot what they're
0:40:54 called now i found their name and they
0:40:55 basically wanted to interview me on the
0:40:56 way back saying what's going on and i
0:40:58 was talking about my experiences in aksa
0:41:01 but as you know i had some orthodox jews
0:41:03 just looking at me
0:41:04 trying to explain what was going on it
0:41:06 was a very tense situation it was really
0:41:08 tense
0:41:09 and when the the the
0:41:12 the kind of jewish gentleman was looking
0:41:14 at me and you could tell who was from an
0:41:16 orthodox orthodox perspective
0:41:18 potentially you know uh he was
0:41:20 anti-western by the way because he was
0:41:22 gunning down the west and america and
0:41:24 and stuff like that i was actually
0:41:25 defending the west because it was a
0:41:26 caricature and you know
0:41:28 muslims are just we don't like carrick
0:41:29 controls right um
0:41:31 on more than one level of course yeah
0:41:34 so of course absolutely proud brits as
0:41:38 we say right
0:41:39 so basically i was saying to him about
0:41:42 the concept of
0:41:43 rahma in the islamic and jewish
0:41:45 tradition and there was another jewish
0:41:47 lady who's like you took it from us i
0:41:49 said
0:41:49 no problem we don't believe we have a
0:41:51 monopoly on the truth we believe we have
0:41:52 this kind of
0:41:53 we're we we're basically uh the
0:41:55 monotheistic
0:41:56 final testament tradition like the quran
0:41:59 came down as a foreign
0:42:00 as a criterion to basically correct
0:42:03 what was basically changed by human
0:42:06 hands in history that you know we all
0:42:07 believe in one creator that is merciful
0:42:09 and so on and so forth
0:42:10 but the discussion was so powerful bro
0:42:12 that was going into their tradition and
0:42:13 into the islamic tradition from a rahma
0:42:15 perspective
0:42:16 from a values perspective he actually
0:42:18 ended up hugging me
0:42:20 yeah and then the the kind of liberal
0:42:24 news news people there were there was
0:42:27 tears in their eyes
0:42:28 it was one of the most amazing
0:42:29 experiences i've ever had to this day
0:42:32 i'm looking for the footage but anyway
0:42:34 so that was a really nice experience
0:42:35 that i had also i had very negative
0:42:36 experience as well
0:42:37 when went to masjid ibrahim and the way
0:42:39 i was treated and dehumanized
0:42:41 it and i thought that dehumanization i
0:42:44 sat in the measure i started crying
0:42:45 i was just i was literally for the first
0:42:48 time in my life i've never
0:42:49 felt so disempowered
0:42:52 and helpless really bro um and it was it
0:42:55 was a
0:42:56 quite a moving experience but anyway i
0:42:58 thought i'd share that story
0:43:00 when it comes to values therefore habibi
0:43:03 why is it important
0:43:04 and obviously i'm going to say this from
0:43:05 the sapiens perspective even an islamic
0:43:08 perspective
0:43:08 why is it important to share islamic
0:43:10 values therefore
0:43:12 because look what karen armstrong said
0:43:14 it was the first time where jews muslims
0:43:16 and christians live peacefully
0:43:18 we these are the problems a lot of
0:43:19 people are aware of these problems
0:43:21 but let's think about it from a kind of
0:43:23 practical and values perspective
0:43:25 practically what can we do and why are
0:43:27 values important in this discussion
0:43:29 because you can't practice anything or
0:43:31 put things into practice without
0:43:33 sharing the values behind what you want
0:43:35 to implement or what you want to
0:43:36 basically
0:43:38 act upon you know when you look at
0:43:42 the holy land modern-day palestine
0:43:45 lebanon syria and parsons jordan
0:43:48 it's had a history of competing empires
0:43:51 and competing
0:43:51 civilizations i want to take control
0:43:54 over this particular region
0:43:56 ranging from religious to geopolitical
0:43:59 strategic reasons and so forth
0:44:01 when you look at the current conflict
0:44:03 right which has been ongoing for
0:44:05 73 years on paper but actually much
0:44:07 longer than that near a century
0:44:09 as human beings it's normal for us to
0:44:11 look back and think okay
0:44:13 can we identify a time in history where
0:44:15 things were better than this
0:44:18 where a particular system worked
0:44:21 right or a particular social
0:44:23 understanding between these three
0:44:26 abrahamic faiths worked and people lived
0:44:28 in general
0:44:29 prosperity and security there is it was
0:44:33 under
0:44:33 muslim rule of various polities
0:44:38 now brothers and sisters i am not one to
0:44:40 romanticize islamic history
0:44:43 our civilization our history is not a
0:44:44 utopian one
0:44:46 it was never utopian under the best
0:44:48 human being who walked this earth
0:44:49 sallallahu alaikum
0:44:51 that even during his tenure of his
0:44:54 10-year tenure
0:44:55 in madina there were problems right so
0:44:58 we don't present our history or
0:44:59 civilization of utopia but we will say
0:45:01 is this
0:45:02 certain practices certain policies
0:45:05 certain ways
0:45:07 emanate from a particular creed
0:45:09 irrespective of which individual
0:45:12 person is ruling a state or structures
0:45:15 or institutions that run a state or a
0:45:17 civilization
0:45:18 certain uh a certain level of social
0:45:22 harmony
0:45:22 emanates from a particular understanding
0:45:25 right
0:45:26 now the ottomans let's take it back the
0:45:28 most recently
0:45:29 up until the 1850s prior to
0:45:33 the uh the reforms of globally i forgot
0:45:36 the name of the
0:45:38 the something reasonable i can't believe
0:45:40 i forgot um
0:45:42 they had the melee system the melee
0:45:44 system is where
0:45:46 the jews and the christians would have
0:45:48 their respective courts of laws
0:45:50 to literally rule by their religious
0:45:52 laws
0:45:53 independent of the state and if they
0:45:56 were unhappy with this they could then
0:45:57 resort it back to the ottoman courts
0:46:00 and this wasn't an optimum practice this
0:46:02 existed
0:46:03 amongst those dynasties and entities
0:46:06 that ruled
0:46:07 prior to them dating all the way back to
0:46:10 the agreement with um
0:46:15 and other faith leaders at the time
0:46:17 right so you're saying basically to give
0:46:20 people the option to
0:46:21 actually live by their own value system
0:46:23 within within a framework of security
0:46:25 and peace is the right way forward
0:46:26 yeah and not just liv hamza you opened
0:46:29 today's
0:46:29 very exhaustive segment today or
0:46:32 highlighting what the autumn
0:46:33 what certain jews were saying about life
0:46:35 in the ottoman states
0:46:36 we were the officers we were custom
0:46:38 officers
0:46:39 these were people who 200 years ago were
0:46:42 violently
0:46:43 expelled from spain and the optimists
0:46:47 and the ottomans sent ships there ships
0:46:49 yeah i need to welcome you
0:46:51 one argue then bro one would say well
0:46:53 what about under a secular israel
0:46:56 maybe if you give them a little bit
0:46:58 longer then there will be palestinians
0:47:00 and authority and people who live in
0:47:01 peace and harmony
0:47:03 okay i mean i've heard this argument
0:47:05 being presented before
0:47:07 and if we're going to do that from a
0:47:08 comparative point of view from certain
0:47:10 examples that we've just mentioned from
0:47:11 islamic history and i need to
0:47:13 reemphasize this brothers and sisters
0:47:17 our civilization is not perfect there
0:47:20 were
0:47:20 many many cases of oppression and unjust
0:47:23 rule and
0:47:23 you know misapplication of of divine
0:47:26 laws
0:47:26 across dynasties and so forth you know
0:47:28 we're not presenting that what we are
0:47:29 saying however
0:47:31 is that when islam had ruled or muslim
0:47:33 dynasties and policy
0:47:34 rule this particular region there was a
0:47:37 stark
0:47:38 difference in the treatment and the
0:47:40 social harmony between jews christians
0:47:42 and muslims
0:47:43 even compared to the byzantines who the
0:47:45 muslims had taken
0:47:47 that blessed holy land from so it is
0:47:49 absolutely important
0:47:50 is and it's not just important look the
0:47:53 practice of having jews and christians
0:47:54 or jews specifically having their calls
0:47:56 it's just a manifestation a
0:47:58 manifestation
0:47:59 of this um world view you know
0:48:03 this this way of life which accepted
0:48:06 jews and christians as people of the
0:48:07 book
0:48:08 people who prior to the coming of the
0:48:10 prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam were
0:48:11 followers of god's prophets may allah be
0:48:13 suppressed be upon them
0:48:15 and so therefore when you look back at
0:48:17 history you don't have to look that far
0:48:18 back to see how
0:48:20 such a society had not just survived
0:48:23 but it thrived without this necessary
0:48:27 70 to 100 years of brutality and
0:48:30 bloodshed
0:48:30 and genocide didn't say you know
0:48:34 what's interesting there's a 19th
0:48:35 century documents i think called the cgi
0:48:37 records amnan cohen he's a jewish
0:48:39 historian he wrote a
0:48:40 two-volume book called a world within
0:48:42 and he collects bro
0:48:44 ottoman archives and this is so
0:48:46 phenomenal
0:48:47 and he he he affirms that
0:48:50 the jewish people had the choice to go
0:48:53 to
0:48:53 the states kind of courts or to go to
0:48:56 the jewish courts
0:48:58 and he argued that many of them didn't
0:49:00 go to the jewish courts
0:49:02 they they preferred the the islamic
0:49:04 votes because they
0:49:05 understood justice was that even to the
0:49:07 point i think there are some and you
0:49:08 have to double check it
0:49:09 there are some narrations of jewish
0:49:11 women going to islamic courts
0:49:13 complaining about what you know in
0:49:15 islamic thick as nafaka
0:49:16 maintenance of house you know the house
0:49:19 family maintenance well
0:49:20 i know it's it may be a crude example
0:49:22 but it just shows
0:49:24 the kind of dynamic and merciful and
0:49:27 compassionate nature of the values i've
0:49:29 implemented at that time but for me
0:49:31 it also shows the world view where it
0:49:34 came from
0:49:35 because we believe the prophet muhammad
0:49:37 is a mercy to all the worlds
0:49:39 as i mentioned in the beginning we
0:49:41 believe that islam is for everybody
0:49:43 we believe that islam is here to dignify
0:49:46 all human beings
0:49:47 and it should be put onto the discussion
0:49:50 table
0:49:51 as a kind of values and
0:49:54 ideas perspective that these are true
0:49:56 and whatever comes from truth is true
0:49:58 and that's what we teach in sapiens
0:49:59 institute in our tower courses
0:50:01 we teach people that the islamic
0:50:02 intellectual foundations are true and we
0:50:03 could show they're true
0:50:05 and whatever comes from this truth is
0:50:07 true but not in an abstract way but also
0:50:09 in a very practical way and i'm very
0:50:10 happy delhi i'm
0:50:11 i'm not i'm not saying i'm surprised i'm
0:50:13 very happy that you understand that
0:50:15 you know human beings make errors you
0:50:17 know the person said that human beings
0:50:19 sin and the best of all sinners are
0:50:20 those who repent
0:50:21 we make mistakes in our history we
0:50:24 shouldn't over glorify our history
0:50:25 because i personally feel
0:50:27 that over glorifying your history is
0:50:29 actually a sign of a weak mind yeah
0:50:31 because you're like oh you just it's
0:50:32 like you're misrepresenting your own
0:50:34 history
0:50:34 so it's very good but what's very
0:50:36 interesting that you said i could unpack
0:50:37 from that is
0:50:38 but the good things that we find the
0:50:40 things that facilitate justice and mercy
0:50:43 can be linked back to the islamic
0:50:45 tradition hundred percent for centuries
0:50:48 we've not been talking about sporadic
0:50:49 periods for the medieval period we're
0:50:52 literally talking about the time from
0:50:54 islamic rule under the khilaf
0:50:57 and up until 1099 when he was taken
0:50:59 during the first crusade then there was
0:51:01 like a 97 year occupation
0:51:03 and from 1187 literally up to world war
0:51:06 one
0:51:06 it would be starkly different in terms
0:51:09 of peace and security
0:51:11 between these three abrahamic faiths
0:51:13 that period comes up
0:51:14 look at the period mid mid
0:51:17 7th century ce to 1099
0:51:20 100 year occupation 1187 all the way up
0:51:23 to 1917.
0:51:25 if you take this massive chunk of
0:51:28 islamic rule or muslim rule
0:51:30 i mean let's let's put aside the
0:51:32 semantics of it being islamic
0:51:34 muslim rule between various polities and
0:51:36 dynasties
0:51:38 the security that they enjoy throughout
0:51:40 the times
0:51:41 over a period of a millennia nearly
0:51:43 right now definitely over a millennia
0:51:45 that it just simply is like it's like a
0:51:48 dystopia
0:51:49 what we're seeing right now you're the
0:51:51 the level of
0:51:52 the level of oppression uh according to
0:51:55 international law
0:51:56 i know whenever muslims discuss the
0:51:59 palestine uh
0:52:00 issue you know we always want to cite
0:52:02 international law because
0:52:04 we sometimes a bit concerned maybe we
0:52:06 take certain conversations elsewhere
0:52:08 that we go beyond what could perhaps be
0:52:10 accepted
0:52:11 but let's look at international laws
0:52:13 then in that case yeah
0:52:15 the un has passed various resolutions
0:52:17 the by the british governments on
0:52:19 definition the ongoing
0:52:20 settlements that are taking place in
0:52:22 east jerusalem and beyond are illegal
0:52:25 right but there has to be hamza there
0:52:28 has to be
0:52:29 a conversation about history
0:52:32 where we are and where we're going
0:52:35 whether it be from a downward point of
0:52:37 view
0:52:37 which essentially should be like the
0:52:39 main
0:52:40 nucleus of how muslims operate and move
0:52:43 and try to survive
0:52:45 is we need to understand that how does
0:52:48 the history link back to our current
0:52:49 situation and how can it help us moving
0:52:51 forward
0:52:52 so where are we going where should we go
0:52:54 we definitely need to have a
0:52:55 conversation about what we
0:52:57 as muslims as awar muslims can do within
0:53:00 our means so we can fulfill the
0:53:02 condition of being one of the greatest
0:53:04 nations racial amongst mankind because
0:53:06 we enjoy
0:53:06 enjoying a good evil so we need to
0:53:08 ensure what we can do within our limited
0:53:10 capacity and there's many things we can
0:53:12 do
0:53:13 and there's so many things on the table
0:53:14 dr founded was with a conversation with
0:53:17 us just
0:53:17 about a week ago during ramadan but we
0:53:20 had a plethora of different views
0:53:23 whether they were solutions that's a
0:53:24 different conversation but there are
0:53:26 many things that
0:53:27 muslims can do at least speaking in the
0:53:30 west
0:53:31 um which will help us in our most
0:53:33 definitely inshallah
0:53:34 at the very least we can say that there
0:53:36 was a monker which took place
0:53:38 um and and you did whatever was within
0:53:41 your means to do it
0:53:42 whether those things are solutions um is
0:53:45 a completely different conversation
0:53:47 uh but not one that we should
0:53:48 necessarily avoid
0:53:50 if we look at the region now if we look
0:53:52 at the region and notice how i'm saying
0:53:54 region not just palestine hamza i'm
0:53:55 saying the region
0:53:56 yeah professor noam chomsky a secular
0:54:00 jewish
0:54:01 professor known as the the founding
0:54:03 father of modern
0:54:04 linguists linguistics dr finkelstein
0:54:07 you know the two most prominent
0:54:09 anti-zionist jewish academics
0:54:12 they have said that you know even under
0:54:15 the ottomans even though we have
0:54:16 religious issues with them and certain
0:54:18 backward and regressive practices of
0:54:20 this polity
0:54:20 it was a lot better under the ottomans
0:54:24 than it was uh under current zionist
0:54:26 occupation
0:54:27 right yeah you know just the just the
0:54:30 general living standards
0:54:31 the harmony the peace the the population
0:54:34 management
0:54:36 the respect and tolerance of each
0:54:38 other's faiths of people's holy days and
0:54:40 practices
0:54:40 and people's uh you know sacred places
0:54:44 it's just incomparable to compare
0:54:47 a situation since it was the last 73
0:54:49 years
0:54:50 look at what we're doing we're comparing
0:54:52 it to a situation which existed 500
0:54:54 years ago
0:54:55 that actually shows how starkly horrific
0:54:58 the current occupation is
0:54:59 yeah anyway i'm sorry and we haven't
0:55:02 even gone into by the way because
0:55:04 we haven't even gone into you know the
0:55:06 kidnappings
0:55:08 the shootings of young children the
0:55:09 amount of under 16
0:55:11 boys and girls who are arrested and
0:55:13 currently doing six months to two years
0:55:15 in prison for yani for having a stone
0:55:17 we're not talking about one day a
0:55:19 palestinian mother has gone out to go to
0:55:20 shopping she comes back out of the house
0:55:22 is literally occupied honey
0:55:24 these are daily occurrences brothers and
0:55:26 sisters i want you to put yourself into
0:55:28 this perspective this is what we've been
0:55:29 talking about
0:55:30 many people have because i don't know
0:55:32 what was unique this time but the sheikh
0:55:33 jarrah case really blew up this time
0:55:36 so many people are talking about
0:55:37 masha'allah but
0:55:40 has been happening for the last 70 years
0:55:43 and it's been worse than it's just that
0:55:44 this time around is very is very
0:55:46 they've emboldened themselves and
0:55:47 they're very brazen about it um
0:55:50 so we have to talk about solutions our
0:55:53 solution the dao has many manifestations
0:55:56 and one that has to go back to uh our
0:55:59 uh scripts and um and this prophetic
0:56:03 tradition and we've already mentioned it
0:56:05 how is it that under medina and the
0:56:07 prophet sallam
0:56:08 flourished in terms of a faith tolerance
0:56:11 point of view
0:56:12 while still maintaining islam as the
0:56:14 final um you know
0:56:16 not monopoly but the final testimony of
0:56:19 monotheism as per the abrahamic faiths
0:56:22 we still managed to be the authorities
0:56:24 over
0:56:25 these regions as was doing a little hop
0:56:28 up as it was during the
0:56:30 basic period and the um period and the
0:56:33 ottoman period the ubiquitous period
0:56:35 the mango period nothing changed the
0:56:38 holy land
0:56:39 yes it wasn't perfect it wasn't it
0:56:41 wasn't perfect but again
0:56:43 just the testimonials of european
0:56:45 chroniclers and crusader chroniclers
0:56:47 just tells you that it was crazy there
0:56:49 was a blood buffer crying out loud in
0:56:51 1099 last month he's going to so many
0:56:52 lectures on it
0:56:53 it was a bloodbath when the crusaders
0:56:55 entered jerusalem the christians were
0:56:57 worried
0:57:00 who by the way many scholars have argued
0:57:01 that if he wanted
0:57:03 a blood bath he would be right there is
0:57:06 a
0:57:06 there is a room to justify it in terms
0:57:09 of retribution but he didn't
0:57:11 he didn't even apply the jizy attacks on
0:57:13 all the christians
0:57:15 many of whom even were ready to fight
0:57:16 him he welcomed the jews back
0:57:19 like the muslims did when they entered
0:57:21 the holy land
0:57:22 these are things which you simply cannot
0:57:25 you know to try even
0:57:26 articulate and understand how such a
0:57:29 value-based system could survive
0:57:31 or come into shape or even have a
0:57:33 discussion within
0:57:35 muslims and non-muslims about let's be
0:57:37 honest with ourselves guys
0:57:39 you know 73 years isn't a long time our
0:57:41 grandparents would remember this period
0:57:43 their parents would remember this period
0:57:46 there was peace and prosperity
0:57:47 in that in this very land just less than
0:57:50 100 years ago
0:57:51 we don't have to go back to history
0:57:53 books there were
0:57:54 very recent examples of how jews muslims
0:57:57 and christians
0:57:58 lived in peace and we then need to
0:58:00 understand what
0:58:01 thinking what ideology what mindset what
0:58:04 social values changed
0:58:06 what new thing was injected into this
0:58:08 holy land
0:58:09 that has now made it into a dystopia a
0:58:12 hell of earth
0:58:14 for muslim and christian arabs yes
0:58:17 and this is why it's important to make a
0:58:18 very striking distinction a clear
0:58:20 distinction between
0:58:22 kind of ideological zionism and actually
0:58:24 what jewish tradition actually says
0:58:26 because as you said earlier and i'm just
0:58:27 echoing what you said
0:58:28 that if there was a kind of talmudic
0:58:32 or torah-based kind of you know social
0:58:35 political environment we want to be
0:58:37 facing what we're facing today
0:58:39 so we need to make that clear
0:58:40 distinction and so doctors my latif i
0:58:42 want to bring you here
0:58:43 i want to i want to ask you a question
0:58:45 say for example you speak to
0:58:48 an average person or even an academic
0:58:49 whoever they are whether they're secular
0:58:51 or religious
0:58:52 and they're they're worried about what's
0:58:54 happening today in a contemporary
0:58:56 in in you know contemporary palestine in
0:58:59 terms of what's happening concerning the
0:59:01 conflict
0:59:02 what would you say to them in order to
0:59:04 understand the kind of veracity of the
0:59:05 islamic tradition and the islamic values
0:59:08 uh citing your amazing kind of research
0:59:10 on dehumanization and history so
0:59:12 imagine having a conversation with
0:59:14 someone say hey dr uthman you're from
0:59:16 the sapiens institute
0:59:17 i heard your phd in history post
0:59:20 doctoral research and dehumanization
0:59:22 talk to me what do you think is a
0:59:23 solution why is it the solution what's
0:59:25 going on help me
0:59:26 and enlighten me in some way what would
0:59:28 you say
0:59:33 you're new you're a mew sorry bismillah
0:59:36 i think the examples that dilly
0:59:38 mentioned are really important examples
0:59:40 the
0:59:40 examples are historical uh we kind of a
0:59:42 lot from them
0:59:44 there is of course a distinction between
0:59:46 objective position between the idea of
0:59:48 of cohesiveness and convergency and
0:59:50 exclusivity that we find in fact in the
0:59:53 in the most current paradigm you know in
0:59:55 that part of the world uh what was
0:59:57 happening of course in examples that
0:59:58 you've just mentioned is the fact that
0:59:59 there was
1:00:00 an understanding that the world is not
1:00:02 ours to inherit
1:00:03 the idea of world inheritance isn't for
1:00:06 nobody
1:00:06 the idea is that you know allah will of
1:00:09 course give people
1:00:10 time on earth and the time of course is
1:00:12 limited time as well i think that that's
1:00:15 important for everybody to realize state
1:00:17 powers
1:00:17 aggressors uh and of course all people
1:00:20 and those of course who are suffering
1:00:22 the quran he says uh that these are what
1:00:25 i these are am we alter between the
1:00:28 people
1:00:29 right so that of course time has mercy
1:00:32 on nobody
1:00:32 i was teaching a poem in fact early
1:00:34 today in a muslim school uh
1:00:36 the poem ozymandias very famous poem by
1:00:38 percy mary shelley which of course is
1:00:40 is supposed to be about ramesses ii and
1:00:43 and i was going through the poem with my
1:00:45 students and i said look
1:00:46 uh you know she says on the pedestal is
1:00:49 written my name is ozymandias king of
1:00:51 kings
1:00:51 he says look on my works you mighty and
1:00:53 despair and then
1:00:55 the narrator says but then you know the
1:00:57 person looks around and there's nothing
1:00:59 there and the
1:01:00 the the bear and level sands stretch far
1:01:02 away there is nothing
1:01:04 left now of ozimandius or ramesses ii in
1:01:07 the sands of
1:01:08 egypt right the monuments the
1:01:09 architecture everything has finished
1:01:11 because time has mercy on nobody
1:01:13 everything is going to crumble one day
1:01:14 and that of course is a lesson for all
1:01:16 of us including of course the aggressors
1:01:18 and tyrants of our world
1:01:19 nothing of course remains forever i
1:01:21 think that the key thing is for us you
1:01:23 know as muslims of course in in
1:01:25 in really uh showing islam to the world
1:01:28 and even in the most
1:01:29 difficult moments to show islam to the
1:01:31 world really mention example of
1:01:32 salah and coming back into bethlehem
1:01:36 this and there was of course this idea
1:01:38 that the the proceeding generation
1:01:40 meaning the the forefathers the parents
1:01:43 of those who
1:01:44 who marched along with salahuddin into
1:01:45 bethlehem this uh
1:01:47 had witnessed so much horror in the
1:01:49 accounts of even
1:01:51 you know chronicles albert of akhen the
1:01:53 the the counts of
1:01:54 the fact that crusaders would smash the
1:01:56 heads of babies against the walls
1:01:58 all of these things are are living
1:02:00 memory you know for the muslims of that
1:02:02 time
1:02:03 but it's about what is it then that we
1:02:05 would show
1:02:06 you know in our actions in our pursuit
1:02:09 of justice that would reflect not just
1:02:11 justice for us and others in the world
1:02:13 but would reflect the
1:02:15 the the beauty of islam that the world
1:02:17 can have a witness to
1:02:18 and there's many beautiful examples of
1:02:20 that so remember of course that you know
1:02:22 before 1099
1:02:23 you had 1096 the rhineland massacre so
1:02:27 chris crusaders you know in the vengeful
1:02:30 fury against the jews
1:02:31 you had the people's crusade and on the
1:02:33 way rhineland they committed a massacre
1:02:36 against the jewish people
1:02:37 so therefore uh the the jews of
1:02:40 jerusalem were also fearful of the fact
1:02:43 that these crucibles would have no mercy
1:02:44 and in fact they had no mercy on them
1:02:46 because they also massacred them as well
1:02:48 but it's about what is it that we're
1:02:50 showing in terms of
1:02:51 the the paradigm of islam you know
1:02:53 there's two verses in the quran that
1:02:55 that tap into this
1:02:56 the the impediment of love and the
1:02:58 impediment of hatred
1:03:00 allah the quran says you who believe in
1:03:01 a standout family for justice as
1:03:03 witnesses to allah
1:03:04 even if it's against yourselves or your
1:03:06 parents if they're rich or poor should
1:03:08 make no difference
1:03:09 um you could love somebody so much it
1:03:12 could swerve you from being just
1:03:14 at the same time another verse in the
1:03:16 quran very similar to the first one
1:03:18 or you who believe stand out firmly for
1:03:20 allah as witnesses to justice
1:03:22 and do not let the hatred you have for a
1:03:24 people swerve you from being
1:03:26 just allah says be just and that is
1:03:29 closer to piety
1:03:30 and that's the paradigm remember that
1:03:32 you know if
1:03:34 from the from the muslim perspective we
1:03:36 believe that
1:03:38 life doesn't exist isn't last forever
1:03:40 we're only here on earth for a short
1:03:42 time
1:03:42 when salahuddin captured brittle
1:03:43 mocktails they inscribed on the gate of
1:03:47 the verse in the quran
1:03:53 that we have decreed in the zaboor after
1:03:55 the reminder
1:03:56 the earth will be inherited by the pious
1:03:58 servants of allah
1:03:59 it was it was a template it was a way
1:04:01 that we have to always
1:04:03 live up to this expectation and that
1:04:05 means dealing with people
1:04:07 with goodness with kindness with mercy
1:04:09 with justice
1:04:10 and there's examples not only of the
1:04:12 jews always being welcomed back
1:04:14 um you mentioned hamza about al-andallah
1:04:17 so
1:04:17 you know before talib arrived seven
1:04:19 eleven you had visigothic kings
1:04:21 chintilla the first recurred the first
1:04:24 they had their they had their
1:04:26 inquisition before
1:04:27 the spanish inquisition they were
1:04:29 already being forcefully
1:04:30 removed from al andalus and and forced
1:04:33 baptisms and forced conversions
1:04:35 the muslims you know showed sympathy
1:04:37 with that suffering for them they were
1:04:39 sympathetic
1:04:40 for that they showed empathy for that
1:04:41 they showed mercy the mercy of islam
1:04:43 by affording them these these rights and
1:04:46 the justice of islam
1:04:47 and the same is true in our contemporary
1:04:48 history look we forget of course
1:04:50 i was on a i was on a i was in dublin i
1:04:53 was in dublin and i was on a train
1:04:55 and um and i was in a carriage and i was
1:04:58 the only
1:04:59 uh you know asian looking person
1:05:01 everybody of course was just you know
1:05:02 why irish
1:05:03 and um and i'm on this carriage and
1:05:05 there's you know this
1:05:07 kind of ladies maybe in their 50s or 60s
1:05:10 and they're they're all around me so
1:05:12 there's three in front and there's two
1:05:13 beside me
1:05:14 and uh and and i'm just there by myself
1:05:17 and
1:05:18 and they're talking amongst themselves
1:05:19 but i thought i want to make a
1:05:20 conversation with these ladies and show
1:05:22 them of something of islam and so i had
1:05:24 lots of sweets you know in my my bag
1:05:26 and so i thought i was going to share
1:05:27 these sweets with them and then maybe
1:05:28 some conversation might emerge
1:05:30 and and so i'm giving these sweets and
1:05:32 they're thanking me so much and they
1:05:33 said what are you here for
1:05:35 and i said i'm here to speak about
1:05:36 empathy and it's true because i was
1:05:38 giving
1:05:38 a lecture on on human empathy and
1:05:41 empathy in islam and the paradigm of
1:05:42 empathy in the quran and the sunnah
1:05:44 and the prophetic empathy and beautiful
1:05:46 discussion and i'm showing them that
1:05:48 i mentioned some hadith about the
1:05:49 prophetic character and how the person
1:05:51 was was
1:05:51 empathetic and then i said i've just
1:05:53 come back from
1:05:54 auschwitz and burke canal and it was so
1:05:57 interesting because one of the ladies
1:05:58 there said it's interesting you
1:06:00 mentioned that because
1:06:01 you know my great grandfather was one of
1:06:03 the soldiers
1:06:04 who who rescued the jews you know from
1:06:07 auschwitz
1:06:08 and it just shows therefore that the
1:06:09 world in fact is a small place and every
1:06:11 one of us has
1:06:13 has segments of understanding with one
1:06:15 another
1:06:16 but it's about opening up our spaces of
1:06:18 understanding with one another opening
1:06:20 the spaces
1:06:21 when the person was coming back you know
1:06:22 on the fatal mecca uh
1:06:24 again the meccans would would have this
1:06:26 sense of understanding and this is what
1:06:28 the meccans did for it did to us
1:06:30 back in the days they must they
1:06:31 massacred us they killed us and they've
1:06:33 imprisoned us um and one of them in in
1:06:36 one narration i think it says that he
1:06:37 says
1:06:39 today is a day of vengeance and
1:06:41 slaughter we're going to slaughter these
1:06:42 people
1:06:43 and the prophet said murhamma today is
1:06:46 the day of rahmah today is a day
1:06:47 you know of mercy you know i mean that's
1:06:50 it what is it that we're leaving behind
1:06:52 i mean except that we're leaving these
1:06:53 beautiful examples and when he of course
1:06:55 came back on the
1:06:56 uh what did he say the words of yusuf to
1:06:58 his brothers
1:07:00 there's no blame on you today came back
1:07:02 into al-qud's
1:07:03 uh on the night of on the uh you know uh
1:07:08 the the occasion of the prophet's night
1:07:10 journey the same day
1:07:11 and his words were very similar the
1:07:13 whole point is is that
1:07:14 in islam we believe that allah subhanahu
1:07:17 wa ta'ala created bani adam sons of adam
1:07:19 and allah gave them a nobility
1:07:22 we've ennobled the son of adam it is us
1:07:25 as human beings that we do this
1:07:26 disservice to that
1:07:27 every human being every human being we
1:07:30 have the capacity to do wondrous
1:07:32 miraculous works of righteousness and
1:07:34 goodness
1:07:35 but we also have failings we could fail
1:07:38 that and we could
1:07:39 we could resort to this regressive
1:07:41 history like delhi was mentioned that's
1:07:42 just regression
1:07:44 if for example like you mentioned uh you
1:07:46 know a hundred years back or 200 years
1:07:48 back
1:07:48 there's a beautiful example i mean
1:07:50 jerusalem could in fact
1:07:52 also serve as this convention model just
1:07:54 like a
1:07:56 for example or baghdad for example but
1:07:58 if it is that in our most recent history
1:08:00 we have this
1:08:01 uh you know devilish um oppression
1:08:04 meted out against other innocent human
1:08:06 beings then that's regression
1:08:08 but to show therefore that we have that
1:08:10 human beings
1:08:11 if if we don't act on on these beautiful
1:08:14 value systems of of justice of
1:08:16 mercy we can we can resort to that allah
1:08:19 says
1:08:24 allah says consider the human self how
1:08:26 it could be inspired by this
1:08:28 uh act of of goodness and and and
1:08:31 righteousness
1:08:32 and at the same time could also be
1:08:33 inspired by by moral depravities
1:08:35 and so therefore islam is about
1:08:38 promoting the goodness of man
1:08:40 right in creating a society where that
1:08:42 goodness of man could thrive
1:08:44 you know and you think for example look
1:08:46 in in more recent history we're speaking
1:08:48 about the jewish suffering
1:08:49 in the holocaust for example you know
1:08:51 there's a good book called
1:08:52 among the righteous by robert satloff
1:08:54 and he in his research
1:08:56 look at the exam looks at examples of of
1:08:58 muslims who rescue
1:09:00 jews in the holocaust amazing chapters
1:09:03 on albania for example albanian muslims
1:09:05 who acted on this code of
1:09:07 of the visa which is a code visa which
1:09:10 is like
1:09:11 if you think uh about what what hajo
1:09:13 meyer in the book i just showed
1:09:14 we're speaking about in in the ethical
1:09:16 tradition betrayed it's a betrayal of
1:09:18 the golden rule which is supposed to be
1:09:21 you know the the foundation of judaism
1:09:23 the golden rule do unto others as you
1:09:25 would like done unto yourselves i mean
1:09:27 that's the golden rule
1:09:28 in the besa code in albania it was it
1:09:31 was something similar it was to rescue
1:09:33 others
1:09:33 even in spite of yourself rescue others
1:09:36 in spite of yourself and remember this
1:09:38 and this is advice for all of us in this
1:09:40 particular time uh
1:09:41 and you know any time that whenever you
1:09:43 have examples of of human genocide mass
1:09:46 murder mass killing
1:09:47 theft of land apartheid anything like
1:09:50 this
1:09:50 there's always going to emerge four
1:09:52 kinds of people
1:09:53 there will be of course the perpetrators
1:09:55 there will be the victims
1:09:56 may allah ease their situation give them
1:09:58 victory there will be the bystanders
1:10:00 there will be those who will simply be
1:10:02 the onlookers and the bystanders
1:10:04 and they have indifference and they will
1:10:06 be then the rescuers there will be those
1:10:07 who will try and do something
1:10:09 to change that situation what we have to
1:10:11 do is that
1:10:13 remember uh you know we have a thing
1:10:15 called um
1:10:16 mental buffers mental buffers you know
1:10:19 uh dilly mentioned example that in this
1:10:21 example of sheikh jarrah there was more
1:10:23 of a sense of awakening
1:10:24 and i really felt that myself i think
1:10:26 that the world is seems to be more alert
1:10:28 to what's happening that that is really
1:10:30 in the narrative card of
1:10:32 of uh of what's being played out in the
1:10:34 propaganda it doesn't seem to be working
1:10:36 anymore
1:10:36 but the mental buffers are such that uh
1:10:39 you know if i if i for example asked
1:10:42 an englishman about uh about 1966
1:10:46 right the year 19 he probably gonna say
1:10:48 oh that's the year when
1:10:50 when england won the the world cup of
1:10:52 football but if i ask an indonesian
1:10:54 about 1960 they will say that's the year
1:10:57 where one million of us
1:10:59 were slaughtered in a genocide up to one
1:11:02 million people were killed
1:11:03 in a genocide in 1966 uh funded by
1:11:07 america
1:11:08 an anti-communist purge you know up to
1:11:10 one million people but what's happening
1:11:12 is that if i if i'm looking at
1:11:14 if i'm looking at what the right hand is
1:11:15 doing but i'm not paying attention to
1:11:17 what the left hand might be doing
1:11:18 i'm going to miss that if i said for
1:11:20 example if i said to the americans
1:11:22 if i said american tell me about 1969
1:11:26 for example they'll say yeah well that's
1:11:28 the year that we landed on the moon
1:11:29 and it's true but in 1968 it was a mile
1:11:33 massacre in vietnam by the time that
1:11:35 news reached american media it was 1969
1:11:38 no one had that much time for it because
1:11:40 everybody's celebrating
1:11:41 the fact that america has landed on the
1:11:43 moon right it's about where we're
1:11:45 looking
1:11:45 where are we looking you know one of the
1:11:48 uh i i i
1:11:49 and i cite him in my book on being human
1:11:51 uh i was really touched by this
1:11:53 individual stephan hassell
1:11:54 that you might know of who wrote this
1:11:56 book in france called um
1:11:58 in french and transit called uh time for
1:12:01 outrage
1:12:02 time for outrage this man was an
1:12:03 auschwitz survivor
1:12:05 he died at the age of nine he wrote the
1:12:06 book age of 91 he's
1:12:08 he's passed away now his penultimate
1:12:10 chapter is outrage over palestine
1:12:12 he says the greatest indignation i have
1:12:14 in the world is for what's happening to
1:12:16 the palestinians
1:12:17 i mean look at that right for a person
1:12:19 who has that sense of empathy who's
1:12:21 understood that this is what we
1:12:22 experienced in the holocaust
1:12:24 and now this is what we've seen
1:12:25 palestinians but you know it's his last
1:12:27 paragraph in his book that i took the
1:12:29 cutscene of memorizing because i thought
1:12:30 it was so relevant
1:12:32 in his last paragraph in his book he
1:12:34 writes this he says that we call for a
1:12:36 mass public uprising
1:12:38 against the means of mass communication
1:12:40 that offer nothing but mass consumption
1:12:43 as a prospect for our youth general
1:12:45 amnesia
1:12:46 and the outrageous competition of all
1:12:48 against all that that's his
1:12:50 final words and what he's saying
1:12:51 therefore is if we are
1:12:53 consumed by you know our fixation with
1:12:56 consumerism we will have no time
1:12:58 to worry about and anybody else is
1:13:00 suffering on anything else
1:13:01 so therefore i think that we have number
1:13:03 one a human responsibility
1:13:05 to be able to look and observe and see
1:13:08 and feel
1:13:08 that there is a world outside of us we
1:13:10 don't it's no exclusivity we live with
1:13:13 human beings we're social beings we have
1:13:14 other people in the world around us
1:13:16 and to know therefore that one of the
1:13:18 most beautiful things and this of course
1:13:19 is the islamic paradigm
1:13:21 is to act on to act on mercy
1:13:24 you know when the prophet says
1:13:31 the merciful ones are those whom the
1:13:33 all-merciful shows mercy towards
1:13:35 be merciful with those on the earth and
1:13:37 the one in the heavens allah
1:13:39 will show mercy unto you right so to
1:13:41 always have that as a stimulus to
1:13:43 motivate your actions that you want to
1:13:45 be
1:13:45 merciful unto others and i think that in
1:13:47 that we can
1:13:48 really show the world a beautiful
1:13:50 example of the prophetic character
1:13:52 saying that of course at the same time
1:13:53 we have to be very very
1:13:55 um uh you know very staunch
1:13:58 in in refusing uh yeah you know people
1:14:02 to to suffer such injustices as as we're
1:14:05 seeing of course against the
1:14:06 palestinians today
1:14:07 we have a very strong voice a very
1:14:09 strong actions
1:14:10 uh you know against injustices against
1:14:13 palestinians or anybody else in our
1:14:15 world today
1:14:16 meaning we're all socially morally
1:14:18 responsible people
1:14:20 and i think that that's something that
1:14:21 we should we should think deeply about
1:14:23 in this time from that perspective look
1:14:26 you know if i was you know i became
1:14:29 muslim around 18 19 years ago and
1:14:31 if i heard stuff like this i'd be like
1:14:32 wow there seems to be something special
1:14:34 about the islamic tradition
1:14:36 not only in its ideas its worldview but
1:14:38 its values and its practices because if
1:14:40 this is true history then wow you know
1:14:42 the i've been missing something so
1:14:46 what i would say even from an outsider
1:14:48 perspective is
1:14:49 what's going on now bro where is all of
1:14:51 this mercy and this justice and this
1:14:54 kind of
1:14:54 you know amazing model of islam and its
1:14:57 so-called truth of islamic foundations
1:14:59 and the truth of his values
1:15:02 what's happening now there seems to be a
1:15:04 huge vacuum what's going on
1:15:06 i don't actually recall the many
1:15:07 conversations we used to have uh
1:15:10 hamza with augusta a particular verse of
1:15:12 the quran allah said
1:15:14 and strive in the cause of allah
1:15:18 and and then we looked at the the the
1:15:20 fear of this particular verse and the
1:15:22 best form of striving
1:15:36 telling us very clearly that the
1:15:38 solution is there
1:15:39 as well right and it's i'm going to
1:15:42 leave this for
1:15:43 perhaps another conversation which
1:15:44 safety's institute can perhaps inshallah
1:15:46 organize we can
1:15:48 talk about this particular topic
1:15:50 especially history
1:15:51 is an area which you guys have dealt
1:15:53 with especially
1:15:56 is that every example that we have cited
1:16:00 from even the one where the prophet
1:16:02 sallallahu alaihi wasallam entered
1:16:03 makkah with 10 000 soldiers and
1:16:05 some a minority of the sahaba before
1:16:07 this was a day of retribution
1:16:09 there was not and it was on this day the
1:16:11 process
1:16:12 whoever is from the household of abu
1:16:14 sufyan is forgiven he is safe
1:16:16 well you remember why this was the
1:16:17 people of abu sufyan meaning
1:16:32 my dear brother is respected sure we
1:16:35 have to obviously
1:16:36 now shift a conversation perhaps we're
1:16:39 striving in the cause of allah with the
1:16:41 quran
1:16:42 and looking at the manifestation of such
1:16:44 a value-based system
1:16:46 how it practically looks in society that
1:16:49 has happened when there has been a
1:16:50 civilization that lived by it
1:16:53 that lived and breathed the quran and
1:16:55 the prophetic tradition
1:16:56 and we know we very commonly cite and we
1:16:59 look at the state of the ummah we always
1:17:01 look at and we recite the verse that
1:17:03 allah will not change the situation of a
1:17:05 people until they change what is within
1:17:06 themselves
1:17:07 many at times mistakenly understand it
1:17:10 to me
1:17:11 one individual by individual yes that is
1:17:14 a take
1:17:15 but it's also in reference to a
1:17:17 collective
1:17:19 for us to be collectively worthy of
1:17:21 allah's victory and
1:17:23 whatever that may manifest in the 21st
1:17:25 century or the 22nd century
1:17:27 these are these are the conversations we
1:17:29 need to have because
1:17:31 yes even a system based on rahma during
1:17:35 a period of immense occupation of
1:17:37 one-sided depression
1:17:39 even this rahman will require the
1:17:42 believers
1:17:42 in this case to not just necessarily
1:17:45 because rahma doesn't automatically
1:17:46 equate
1:17:48 uh into being down trodden doormats for
1:17:51 oppression
1:17:52 the believer should not oppress nor
1:17:54 should he be oppressed yes
1:17:56 so we as muslims especially outside of
1:17:59 philistine need to have a conversation
1:18:02 because
1:18:03 they're not being able to have those
1:18:04 conversations they're too busy trying to
1:18:06 survive
1:18:07 without getting arrested and
1:18:08 incarcerated or killed or shot or bombed
1:18:11 so these conversations do need to be had
1:18:13 and i really want to applaud
1:18:15 savings institute for obviously
1:18:17 facilitating this conversation
1:18:18 but every example that we've spoken
1:18:20 about has happened from a civilizational
1:18:22 point of view
1:18:24 we do not have such a civilization at
1:18:26 the moment
1:18:27 we have 57 majority muslim majority
1:18:30 secular nation states
1:18:32 sadly if it was a case where they were
1:18:33 just silent i mean
1:18:35 that would be acceptable sadly we see
1:18:38 complicity
1:18:40 we see certain policies ask not just
1:18:43 continuing by enhancing and increasing
1:18:46 with an entity which is currently
1:18:49 oppressing
1:18:50 our brothers and sisters in philistine i
1:18:52 have done so for three quarters of a
1:18:54 century
1:18:55 i think they've been oppressing the
1:18:57 christians as well in palestine
1:18:58 of course but the issue with the muslim
1:19:01 the christians here that
1:19:02 the situation is bad but they have
1:19:04 france they have other christian nations
1:19:05 of europe to lobby
1:19:07 on behalf of them and you know we've
1:19:09 tend to forget that
1:19:10 yubi was a kurds from iraq
1:19:14 who first went to egypt to then go to
1:19:18 do what he liberated from the crusade
1:19:21 occupation
1:19:22 so we need to have a automatic paradigm
1:19:24 as well in terms of what we
1:19:26 can and be able to do never belittling
1:19:29 any action
1:19:30 every action is worth doing even if it
1:19:32 just means
1:19:34 so once we look at long-term meaningful
1:19:36 long-term and short-term
1:19:38 uh solutions there's also from a
1:19:41 daily point of view what we can do
1:19:45 that may not be solutions but could
1:19:47 contribute
1:19:48 as dramatic rightly said there are four
1:19:50 types of people that are born after
1:19:52 situations
1:19:53 the oppressor or the perpetrator the
1:19:56 victim
1:19:57 the bystander and the one who
1:19:58 contributes to wanting to bring a change
1:20:01 joseph goebbels the hitler's
1:20:03 propagandist said
1:20:05 you tell a people lie long enough they
1:20:08 will
1:20:08 accept it as true and even those who
1:20:11 don't accept it as true
1:20:12 they will not even intervene in cases of
1:20:14 clear oppression and justice
1:20:17 meaning that even if people watch
1:20:18 propaganda the dehumanization of muslims
1:20:21 and palestinians
1:20:22 right but even if they don't necessarily
1:20:24 agree with it
1:20:25 you feed people that long enough they
1:20:27 won't even care to be
1:20:29 just in speaking out and this applies to
1:20:32 muslims as well
1:20:34 that we cannot get apathetic towards the
1:20:36 third holy site of islam
1:20:38 our first qibla we cannot we cannot
1:20:41 get a prophetic about a land which the
1:20:44 angels and the prophets have
1:20:46 all visited and walked on
1:20:49 so these are the kind of conversations
1:20:50 we should have and we need to separate
1:20:53 between
1:20:54 practical actions that we can do
1:20:58 petitions boycott strategic boycotting
1:21:02 giving some kajarya writing to your mp
1:21:04 holding you
1:21:05 holding your democratically voted
1:21:08 parliamentarian to account to convey the
1:21:09 views of the constituents of a
1:21:11 particular
1:21:12 uh town or a city um right
1:21:15 to the israeli embassy attend their
1:21:17 conferences hold them to account this is
1:21:19 a problem
1:21:21 you have to do it but are they solutions
1:21:25 this is the conversation we need to have
1:21:26 how is that we've had an entire
1:21:28 conversation about
1:21:29 uh the justice and the merciful system
1:21:32 yeah absolutely right i think well it's
1:21:35 without
1:21:36 well from a theological perspective
1:21:38 every muslim
1:21:39 anyone who even has an inkling towards
1:21:41 normative islam
1:21:42 would say that the solution is to convey
1:21:45 the quranic message and
1:21:47 implement it at every level and that is
1:21:49 not i think that's nothing scary
1:21:51 that is a liberation of mercy for all of
1:21:54 mankind
1:21:55 and this is why and this is beautiful
1:21:57 we're actually concluding on this point
1:21:58 because
1:21:59 the reason we've mentioned this history
1:22:01 the reason we've mentioned these ideas
1:22:03 we me
1:22:04 reason we've mentioned some of these
1:22:05 positive examples
1:22:07 is to show that they've come from a
1:22:09 particular source the divine reality
1:22:11 allah who is
1:22:13 intensely merciful this mercy allah says
1:22:16 his mercy encompasses
1:22:17 all things everyone muslim and
1:22:19 non-muslim
1:22:20 and the quran is like a love letter to
1:22:23 humanity from that perspective giving
1:22:25 you glad tidings and giving you warnings
1:22:27 because the true love will warn you if
1:22:28 you go down this direction this is
1:22:30 what's going to happen
1:22:31 so if we truly share this quranic
1:22:34 message and we
1:22:35 implement it then it's going to solve
1:22:38 the problems and this is why
1:22:40 people of power muslims who are in
1:22:42 positions of power
1:22:44 should be reminded of this reality
1:22:46 because i truly believe that any sincere
1:22:48 human being
1:22:49 understands the quran and is sincere and
1:22:52 reads the quran would accept it to be
1:22:53 true
1:22:54 and would want to implement it in their
1:22:56 life not only individually but also
1:22:58 socially because they know
1:23:00 true justice and mercy will manifest
1:23:01 from this as we've just described
1:23:03 historically and that's our narrative
1:23:05 so i think this is very very important
1:23:06 you said that have you if i may add
1:23:09 also of course you know sometimes when
1:23:11 we cite
1:23:12 you know when we talk about
1:23:16 what we speak of
1:23:20 when we talk about these great
1:23:22 individuals and figures uh or samantha
1:23:24 fody or whoever it may be
1:23:27 you know it's you know as soon as you
1:23:28 google that name you'll see a muslim
1:23:30 military commander muslim military
1:23:32 general he's
1:23:33 oh god the the muslims are talking about
1:23:34 a military conquest no
1:23:36 what we're talking about was that there
1:23:38 was already an existing
1:23:40 arguably religiously oppressive and
1:23:43 intolerant system in the holy land
1:23:44 before
1:23:46 the rise of islam entering those lands
1:23:48 under the byzantians
1:23:50 the the coptic christians and
1:23:54 the the jews of the holy land they
1:23:56 welcomed muslim rule
1:23:57 they were sure to begin with they feared
1:24:00 it
1:24:01 whatever was naturally the pulse of
1:24:02 history but once
1:24:05 the dean of islam had mixed and
1:24:07 flourished in these lands
1:24:09 if lord sways of those respective lands
1:24:11 didn't become muslim
1:24:12 they lived in harmony and peace
1:24:16 and when we say harmony and peace we
1:24:17 just have i say that because when you
1:24:19 look at the situation now
1:24:21 it's it's horrendous horrendous it is
1:24:25 you know the amount of checkpoints and
1:24:27 metal detectors that are muslim
1:24:29 or christian palestinian has to make for
1:24:32 everyday journey to go to work
1:24:34 or to school to provide the very meager
1:24:38 amounts to make their families survive
1:24:40 daily humiliation
1:24:42 right that the elderly our women and
1:24:45 children have to experience this is
1:24:47 absolutely insane
1:24:49 these conversations need to be had bro
1:24:51 because we can't on the one hand
1:24:54 you know and i'm not saying any muslims
1:24:55 are doing this i'm glad that you said
1:24:56 that that's why the people of influence
1:24:58 the people of power
1:25:00 are so important because these
1:25:02 individuals that we praise and we tell
1:25:04 our children to look up to and so forth
1:25:07 we cannot secularize our own history
1:25:10 we can't do that we can't on the one
1:25:13 hand
1:25:14 pump our children with the greatness
1:25:20 and so forth but then you know totally
1:25:23 absolve
1:25:24 them on how that great society or
1:25:27 political civilization
1:25:29 thrived do you understand that's a
1:25:32 conversation we need to have
1:25:34 and i don't know concluding haditha
1:25:37 yeah sure guys look we shouldn't shy
1:25:40 away from the fact brothers and sisters
1:25:41 that
1:25:42 there is islam being a holistic way of
1:25:45 life
1:25:46 means that it would be an injustice and
1:25:48 i would even say a major sin to say that
1:25:50 allah and what he has revealed by his
1:25:52 scripture and his messengers
1:25:54 is somehow inadequate you know when we
1:25:56 say islam is the answer to all things
1:25:58 it's a cliche statement we've been
1:25:59 hearing it since
1:26:00 donkey's years right but islam really
1:26:02 does have the solution to those answers
1:26:04 it does we're we're not making it up we
1:26:06 literally just spoke about a millennial
1:26:07 of history where
1:26:09 jews christians and watsons lived in
1:26:12 you know incomparable peace and security
1:26:14 to the situation that's been taking
1:26:15 place in the last 73 years
1:26:17 do you understand so so so at the end of
1:26:20 the day
1:26:21 the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam
1:26:22 has already told us the greatest form of
1:26:24 struggle
1:26:25 is to speak a word of truth to a
1:26:27 tyrannical ruler or tyranny
1:26:30 and this is the k and we say this when
1:26:32 we look at the the story of the imam
1:26:33 hussain and yazid we look at this we
1:26:35 look at various cases even
1:26:36 intra muslim cases right that you know
1:26:40 the time is nigh brothers and sisters
1:26:43 and respected friends that we need to
1:26:44 perhaps take this grassroots
1:26:46 conversation that's taking place
1:26:48 within the mahamsa is there any
1:26:50 coincidence
1:26:52 when the when muslim was stormed
1:26:55 by the israeli forces uh in the
1:26:58 morning of jummah a week ago
1:27:02 was it a surprise that there was an
1:27:03 announcement on the minaret
1:27:05 from who were they calling out to
1:27:08 yes
1:27:12 that's much that saying that that's not
1:27:14 like dilio hamza announcing this from
1:27:16 our rooftops in bedfordshire or anything
1:27:18 like this
1:27:18 this is a call that came from the boxer
1:27:21 and dr manati in his various lectures
1:27:23 about
1:27:24 the events um you know that preceded
1:27:28 the liberation of jerusalem 1187 there
1:27:31 were various
1:27:32 emissaries that went from different
1:27:33 parts of the muslim world that went to
1:27:35 baghdad
1:27:36 that went to you know they articulated
1:27:38 in a very compassionate but in a very
1:27:39 uncompromising way reminding
1:27:42 the powerful and the influential of
1:27:43 their duties
1:27:45 because if it was not for the case of um
1:27:54 then islam would not have reached and
1:27:56 flourished those lands today
1:27:58 so this is a conversation i think we
1:28:00 need to have we don't need to
1:28:02 kind of compartmentalize historical
1:28:04 events there
1:28:05 we need to take something from it right
1:28:07 yes and even in those
1:28:09 even in those instances in history where
1:28:11 it wasn't great and where we could have
1:28:12 done things better
1:28:14 to see a solution moving forward um
1:28:17 so yeah so i i i think as well from the
1:28:21 perspective of even our work just
1:28:23 bringing it back to sapiens institute
1:28:25 it's so important
1:28:26 to basically get involved in the dao and
1:28:29 just do what you can
1:28:30 at your level and in your sphere of
1:28:32 influence so for example
1:28:34 a 10 hour advanced our training course
1:28:36 learn how to
1:28:37 articulate islam intelligently and
1:28:39 compassionately
1:28:40 also understand and read the books about
1:28:42 on being human
1:28:43 engage with our current and future work
1:28:45 on history
1:28:46 and values and ethics and why is it that
1:28:49 islam
1:28:50 and you know our theological
1:28:52 understanding was
1:28:53 able to create this peace and harmony
1:28:55 why is it the case because we had a
1:28:57 sense of accountability it wasn't an
1:28:58 abstract idea
1:28:59 you know we're not secularists we're not
1:29:01 philosophical naturalists we're muslims
1:29:02 we actually truly believe in the divine
1:29:04 reality and we will be held into account
1:29:07 and we believe that our life should be
1:29:09 revolve around
1:29:10 affirming his oneness and that he should
1:29:12 be known and loved and obeyed and all
1:29:14 our acts of worshipping to direct to him
1:29:15 alone
1:29:16 and we express that through the five
1:29:17 daily prayers and all the other
1:29:18 spiritual acts that we do
1:29:20 and that creates a kind of consciousness
1:29:22 within ourselves that we are
1:29:24 conscious of the divine so we're going
1:29:26 to be more likely from that from a
1:29:28 psychological perspective someone who
1:29:30 does this and more likely going to be
1:29:31 just and go beyond the call of duty
1:29:34 someone who's willing to sacrifice
1:29:36 someone who's willing to defend human
1:29:38 beings all human beings someone who's
1:29:39 willing to bring people together
1:29:41 just like what we saw in islamic history
1:29:43 in the treaty of medina
1:29:45 and so on and so forth so these are the
1:29:47 things that we should basically be doing
1:29:48 in order to become
1:29:50 beacons of light within our sphere of
1:29:51 control because allah is only going to
1:29:54 take into account of what you can do not
1:29:57 what you
1:29:57 can't do so brothers and sisters get
1:29:59 involved in this type of work
1:30:01 understand islamic theology understand
1:30:03 the intellectual foundations of islam
1:30:04 the values of islam
1:30:06 be a beacon of light as well embody them
1:30:08 as well because allah says in sort of
1:30:10 verse 33 and who is betting speech and
1:30:12 the one who calls to allah
1:30:14 does righteousness that you walk the
1:30:16 walk and then
1:30:17 says that i am one of those who submit
1:30:20 to him i am one of those my state of
1:30:21 being is such that i submit
1:30:23 to allah subhanahu wa ta'ala so this is
1:30:26 holistic endowed from that perspective
1:30:28 do whatever you can but don't forget
1:30:30 that we also have a wider kind of
1:30:32 massive responsibility
1:30:34 as a group of believers
1:30:37 globally that we have to command them
1:30:40 forbid the monk command what is good and
1:30:43 forbid what is wrong
1:30:44 and really the greatest command of good
1:30:46 is the command of tawheed
1:30:48 and the greatest forbidding of wrong is
1:30:49 the forbidding of shikh but what's
1:30:51 interesting
1:30:52 oppression and all of these things are
1:30:54 manifestation of
1:30:56 some aspect of shirk whether it's ego or
1:30:58 whatever the case may be
1:30:59 so we have to understand if we're truly
1:31:01 commanding the good and forbidding the
1:31:03 evil
1:31:03 then it must filter down at every level
1:31:05 of society politically socially
1:31:07 individually
1:31:08 and this is why we have to continue this
1:31:10 call and we do it with intelligence and
1:31:12 wisdom and obviously with rahma and i
1:31:14 agree with dilly
1:31:15 being merciful doesn't mean just
1:31:16 basically giving people flowers and
1:31:18 tickling the toes
1:31:19 true mercy is very comprehensive is how
1:31:22 to use your power
1:31:24 and use your power in the right way in
1:31:26 the right time for the right cause
1:31:27 for the goodness for the ultimate
1:31:29 goodness from that perspective
1:31:31 and sometimes being merciful means you
1:31:34 have to be assertive
1:31:35 you have to be right and we see this in
1:31:37 the life of the prophet sallallahu
1:31:39 alaihi within them and this is why you
1:31:40 shouldn't be shy this is not
1:31:42 unethical or illegal this is a given
1:31:44 right
1:31:45 that you have to be able to say the
1:31:47 right things and do the right things
1:31:49 at the right time in the right place in
1:31:51 order
1:31:52 to achieve goodness for all people and
1:31:54 this is what muslims should be
1:31:56 and this is what we're trying to
1:31:57 encourage and we believe that if you
1:32:00 you know learn from not just sapience
1:32:02 institute but from other institutes and
1:32:03 other organizations on how to give down
1:32:05 how to be
1:32:06 a beacon of light you know to share this
1:32:08 light of islam with people
1:32:09 every drop is gonna is gonna raise the
1:32:11 ocean insha allah so with that i'm gonna
1:32:13 let
1:32:14 dr utman latif uh end do a concluding
1:32:17 few minutes and i'll let dilly end with
1:32:19 a few minutes as well my dear brothers
1:32:20 and sisters i felt this was
1:32:22 a very powerful live stream i think
1:32:26 it was holistic i think it was dynamic
1:32:28 we talked about theology we talked about
1:32:30 history we talked about
1:32:31 solutions we talked about what we should
1:32:32 be thinking about who would who we
1:32:34 should be coming
1:32:35 who we should become and what's
1:32:37 interesting allah says that our success
1:32:39 you know all believers return back to
1:32:42 allah to allah
1:32:45 and collectively you know in order for
1:32:47 you to be successful
1:32:48 and that doesn't mean every single human
1:32:50 being from understand doesn't mean every
1:32:51 single muslim was too tall
1:32:52 but there was this kind of collective on
1:32:55 collective consciousness of us turning
1:32:57 back to allah you know what's
1:32:58 interesting here
1:32:59 because some people think oh we have to
1:33:00 be great muslims to have
1:33:02 success no
1:33:05 the assumption behind this verse is that
1:33:07 you're going to be in a state of doing
1:33:09 mistakes because why are you turning
1:33:10 back so
1:33:12 you know we're going to make mistakes
1:33:14 but the whole point is turn back to
1:33:15 goodness turn back to allah for the
1:33:17 benefit of ourselves first and foremost
1:33:19 and the whole of mankind dr uthman latif
1:33:23 some take your time some conclusions
1:33:28 bless you so much um you know i want to
1:33:31 advise
1:33:32 all of us all of those who are listening
1:33:35 uh
1:33:35 to never lose hope in the promise of
1:33:37 allah subhanahu wa ta'ala
1:33:40 never lose hope in allah subhana wa to
1:33:41 allah okay one of the
1:33:44 and the muslims in fact they understood
1:33:45 this in fact in 1187 when
1:33:47 when was taken by salahadeen and his
1:33:50 army
1:33:50 is that they had inscribed on the inner
1:33:53 dome of the dome of the rock
1:33:56 the first 21 verses of surah taha
1:33:59 and those 21 verses of surah taha are
1:34:01 speaking about
1:34:02 muslim and his he and his task of going
1:34:05 to pharaoh
1:34:06 and remember of course that that's also
1:34:09 a message
1:34:10 the message of liberation is a message
1:34:12 of rahmah is a message of mercy
1:34:14 to to stay the hand of the and to help
1:34:17 them
1:34:17 mean is an act of rahma you know for
1:34:20 them for society
1:34:21 but they had inscribed these 21 verses
1:34:24 and these 21 verses speaking about
1:34:26 muslim but they end
1:34:28 the 21st verse in fact ends
1:34:31 on this when allah says to musa islam is
1:34:34 what is in your right hand or musa it's
1:34:37 a stop and allah says throw it down it
1:34:39 throws it down it becomes a serpent
1:34:41 and and he becomes scared and allah says
1:34:44 sir
1:34:46 this is the 21st verse don't fair we
1:34:48 will return it to its original state
1:34:51 and that was a reminder for the muslims
1:34:52 of battle make this that even though you
1:34:54 lost bit make this for 87 years
1:34:56 allah just like he returned the staff to
1:34:58 his regional state he will return back
1:35:00 to make this to his original state so if
1:35:01 i never lose hope in the promise of
1:35:03 allah sir collective reminder for all of
1:35:04 us
1:35:05 number two don't stop trying you know
1:35:08 one of the things that we forget about
1:35:10 about the crusades and i'll speak
1:35:11 because of course has been a lot of my
1:35:13 work is that
1:35:14 the the the the the the fact that in the
1:35:17 initial decades
1:35:18 after the was taken there was not much
1:35:20 of a political response i mean you had
1:35:22 the khalif
1:35:23 but there simply wasn't that much of an
1:35:24 interest
1:35:26 the muslims the muslims call the ayaan
1:35:29 the civil civilian elite and the average
1:35:32 the lay people uh the uh uh um
1:35:35 the the of of uh of of of damascus uh
1:35:38 abu saleh the shafi faki
1:35:41 traveled with a contingent uh from
1:35:44 damascus to baghdad and they went
1:35:46 and they having and they learned a poem
1:35:48 by one of the first
1:35:50 poets uh of the 12th century muslim
1:35:52 poets who wrote about the first crusade
1:35:54 called
1:35:58 and his lines are very evocative there's
1:36:00 not even until today
1:36:01 they begin by saying
1:36:12 at a time like this that would awaken
1:36:14 any sleeper when your brothers are
1:36:16 sleeping in the in the ball in the
1:36:17 valleys of vultures
1:36:19 and they travel to baghdad to petition
1:36:21 the khalifa for assistance
1:36:22 in one account they even broke the
1:36:24 minbar because it was jummah as a sense
1:36:26 of
1:36:27 outrage that you're gonna do something
1:36:28 to help the your fellow brothers
1:36:30 in hashem but again the response it
1:36:32 wasn't there but the muslims didn't stop
1:36:35 so therefore the the act of i mean
1:36:37 poetry was in fact the voice like today
1:36:39 you have a voice you have social media
1:36:40 you have a voice
1:36:41 you can alert people about injustice
1:36:43 committed against people
1:36:45 you can use your voice to command good
1:36:46 forbid evil and
1:36:48 and that that kind of work the the work
1:36:51 of of poetry of
1:36:52 and not all posts by the way were court
1:36:54 poets these were
1:36:56 poets as wandering poes these were sufi
1:36:59 posts these were
1:37:00 average but who were using the skill and
1:37:02 the talent of poetry
1:37:03 and that was there was a medium of of of
1:37:06 of of of of power
1:37:07 and and disseminating of messing at that
1:37:09 time uh
1:37:11 that carried on for at least four or
1:37:13 five decades you know so therefore don't
1:37:15 give up on the work
1:37:16 that you're committed to and of course
1:37:18 number three to remember to remember of
1:37:20 course that
1:37:21 allah is is uh is is just
1:37:25 allah subhanahu wa to allah has given us
1:37:26 of course a short time on earth
1:37:29 and in the course of this life we're
1:37:30 going to encounter so many things
1:37:32 we ask allah subhanahu wa'ta'ala for for
1:37:34 assistance for for liberation
1:37:36 you know for strength and victory for
1:37:38 the muslim means of of
1:37:40 battle you know of china of all places
1:37:42 where people are suffering
1:37:43 but to remember also that when we speak
1:37:46 about empathy what are we talking about
1:37:47 with
1:37:48 speaking about the fact that you know
1:37:50 we're able to see
1:37:51 in in other people what we see in
1:37:55 ourselves
1:37:56 i mean that's empathy empathy is
1:37:57 perspective taking to take
1:37:59 a perspective with somebody else right
1:38:01 that's that's the power of empathy
1:38:03 right to know of course that what people
1:38:05 are experiencing and suffering
1:38:06 i mean they our human emotions are are
1:38:10 similar we all experience joy grief
1:38:13 sadness but in different gradients and
1:38:15 different ways
1:38:16 but the fact that they exist in other
1:38:18 people mean that they exist in us that's
1:38:20 what really bonds us in our
1:38:21 in our empathic connection and i would
1:38:23 say therefore uh you know as
1:38:25 hamza was mentioning about the point of
1:38:27 you know you look at the quranic
1:38:29 value system look at the prophetic model
1:38:31 look at the example of islamic history
1:38:33 example where of course
1:38:34 you know where islam was implemented and
1:38:37 of course remember this also that one
1:38:38 salah
1:38:39 yubi was seeking to recapture bill mcdes
1:38:42 again the khalif wasn't always
1:38:43 interested
1:38:44 but he always made it a point to fight
1:38:47 his battles in the name of the khalif
1:38:49 right to show of course that this is not
1:38:51 a struggle about salah
1:38:53 yubi nurutin zengi this is a struggle
1:38:55 that is more encompassing than that this
1:38:57 is about the islamic system
1:38:59 the governmental system that is seeking
1:39:01 to re-establish justice on the earth
1:39:04 when justice had been plucked out from
1:39:05 the earth and tyranny had taken its
1:39:07 place
1:39:08 and and it's similar in fact today that
1:39:10 the whole point is that we're
1:39:12 seeking of course to um you know to have
1:39:14 an end to the tyranny and end to the
1:39:16 oppression the apartheid and end to
1:39:18 uh secular colonialism and seeking of
1:39:20 course justice to islam it reminds me in
1:39:22 fact
1:39:28 the very famous encounter when he asked
1:39:30 what do you come here for and he says
1:39:31 we've come to take you out from the
1:39:33 uh worshipping of people to the worship
1:39:36 of the lord of all people
1:39:38 and from the uh uh from the narrowness
1:39:40 and restriction
1:39:41 of false religions to the justice and
1:39:44 expanse and vastness
1:39:45 of islam and that's really that's really
1:39:48 the call you know
1:39:49 of all of us as muslims may allah grant
1:39:52 all of us to fake
1:39:56 that was a very powerful and concise
1:39:58 conclusion
1:39:59 i don't know if i can try compared to
1:40:02 such a conclusion but i'll give it a
1:40:04 shot
1:40:05 brothers and sisters look um just to
1:40:07 echo pretty much everything dr
1:40:09 chief has mentioned um when we
1:40:12 talk of islam as a holistic way of life
1:40:16 as a creed a way of life a world view
1:40:19 which is comprehensive which has the
1:40:21 answers and the solutions for
1:40:22 everything related to mankind's actions
1:40:26 when we perceive islam in this manner
1:40:28 and we accept the quran to be the final
1:40:31 scripture and word of the word of allah
1:40:34 to mankind when we accept the prophet
1:40:36 sallallahu alaihi wasallam is the final
1:40:38 messenger
1:40:38 sent to mankind when we accept these
1:40:40 things and believe in it and
1:40:42 wholeheartedly
1:40:43 internalize it and actualize in our
1:40:45 actions in our speech
1:40:46 then we will know inshallah that allah's
1:40:48 victory is near how
1:40:50 allah's victory manifests where they
1:40:52 manifest in our lifetime without of our
1:40:54 children our grandchildren
1:40:55 that lies in allah but we need to ensure
1:40:59 that we as individual muslims that we do
1:41:02 our bit
1:41:03 within whatever we can because i always
1:41:06 say this whenever i go to islamic
1:41:08 societies or msas
1:41:10 my brother says i personally believe in
1:41:13 centuries to come
1:41:15 this particular generation of muslims
1:41:17 last hundred years
1:41:19 we will be analytically studied by
1:41:22 muslim generations to come
1:41:24 because i was speaking with doctor the
1:41:27 editorial achievement
1:41:28 institute the steamed and celebrated
1:41:31 academic and historian
1:41:32 and we both kind of agreed that this
1:41:35 particular century is a very unique one
1:41:39 unlike any other centuries in islamic
1:41:41 history since the dawn of islam
1:41:42 in makkah and beyond so do
1:41:46 we want to be bystanders in this
1:41:48 particular critical time
1:41:50 do we not want to be the people who the
1:41:53 prophet saw allah referred to
1:41:55 as his brothers not his companions and
1:41:57 the sahaba were jealous
1:41:59 they said we're your brothers because no
1:42:01 you're my companions
1:42:02 these are my brothers and the prophet
1:42:04 elaborated what does that mean
1:42:06 because they would believe in me and
1:42:07 then hold on to the quran when i was not
1:42:09 around
1:42:10 yeah you had me they did not have me we
1:42:13 do not want to be like those that allah
1:42:15 mentions this
1:42:16 when we turn back turn our backs to
1:42:18 islam that allah will replace us
1:42:20 with another generation or more worthy
1:42:22 people who will believe in islam
1:42:24 and manifest it and act upon it and live
1:42:27 according to
1:42:28 it so i'd give you this kind of boost
1:42:31 to tell you all to do everything within
1:42:34 your needs
1:42:34 don't belittle any act don't
1:42:38 whether you think that it is a solution
1:42:39 or not the discussion by solution is a
1:42:42 wider one and it's going to
1:42:43 continue happening it's been happening
1:42:45 for the last 70 80 years it's going to
1:42:47 carry on happening
1:42:48 but within our own individual means we
1:42:50 need to do everything that we can
1:42:52 with sincere with sincerity to
1:42:55 understand that the reason why you may
1:42:57 be boycotting a particular brand or
1:42:59 dates or olives that you like
1:43:00 is because you understand that this was
1:43:02 stolen from your brothers and sisters
1:43:04 or that if you're going to boycott a
1:43:05 particular sport brand like humor
1:43:08 is because they are heavily invested in
1:43:10 the illegal settlements and the theft of
1:43:12 the land of your brothers and sisters
1:43:14 or even if it was a muslim brotherhood
1:43:15 if you were just human beings not
1:43:16 muslims were being oppressed
1:43:18 and even on that principle these kind of
1:43:21 boycotts in sha
1:43:22 allah reward
1:43:25 with the pure intentions and that
1:43:27 includes everything from writing
1:43:29 letters holding politicians and leaders
1:43:31 and faith leaders to account
1:43:33 within a a an islamic etiquette
1:43:36 right to ensure that we don't transgress
1:43:38 upon how we account
1:43:40 um some of the leadership among us
1:43:43 and that also includes the wider and
1:43:46 greater
1:43:46 automatic stuff the conversation that we
1:43:48 need to be having with people of
1:43:49 influence
1:43:50 about what the possible solutions are as
1:43:52 western diaspora communities in the west
1:43:55 we are the eyes and the ears and the
1:43:56 mouths
1:43:57 uh of of of the ummah in the west london
1:44:00 and the uk
1:44:01 has long been known as the capital of
1:44:03 the islamic world outside of the muslim
1:44:04 world
1:44:05 so we have a huge role to play we have a
1:44:08 whole
1:44:08 whole huge role to play in terms of the
1:44:11 multi-faceted nature
1:44:13 of what we essentially want and that is
1:44:15 revival
1:44:16 that's liberation that is a a system
1:44:20 and a way of life which would benefit
1:44:21 not just muslim but not muslims alike
1:44:24 and history is quite frankly filled with
1:44:26 too many examples
1:44:28 to deny that this is just a
1:44:31 unrealistic breed with people who
1:44:33 haven't moved away from the
1:44:35 from the areas of empires no this is
1:44:37 this doesn't stand
1:44:38 this is not the end of history we should
1:44:40 be at the beginning of making history
1:44:44 right and then from that point brothers
1:44:46 and sisters do whatever you can within
1:44:48 your means
1:44:49 uh whatever you can have conversations
1:44:52 have even conversing the various things
1:44:54 that we've explored today
1:44:56 that we touched upon today that's very
1:44:58 important as well
1:44:59 and lastly you know just to
1:45:02 conclude on a promise on some glad
1:45:05 tidings
1:45:06 the there was a verse of the quran of
1:45:09 humanity please
1:45:10 cite it if you know which i'm talking
1:45:12 about allah tells us that some days
1:45:14 the believers will win some days they
1:45:16 will lose one for you one for me
1:45:19 you know so so this is just this this is
1:45:21 the sunnah of allah and we're just
1:45:23 living out what's already to some degree
1:45:24 has happened previously in history
1:45:27 what we want to ensure is that we
1:45:30 as muslims as believers in allah and his
1:45:33 messenger in the final day
1:45:35 are able to stand on the day of judgment
1:45:37 in front of allah
1:45:38 and say that we we had these various
1:45:41 options that we and actions that we
1:45:43 could have done
1:45:44 and we did it and we did it according to
1:45:47 islam upon what the quran the sunnah
1:45:49 has set as a framework for us to do
1:45:51 these things
1:45:53 and i pray to allah that we uplift the
1:45:55 oppression of the hardship
1:46:11 for your words exactly it's really
1:46:12 really wonderful hearing that
1:46:14 uh you know as you were speaking i was
1:46:15 just reminded about something because
1:46:16 you spoke about the fact that history
1:46:18 how history would record us
1:46:20 and that's true because history of
1:46:21 course is a witness and we've spoken
1:46:23 about historical examples and they of
1:46:25 course are witnesses for us
1:46:26 i spoke about before the example of
1:46:28 sofia shawl and i and i'm going to go
1:46:30 back to her just for a second
1:46:32 you know sophia schull was a young
1:46:33 activist 21 years old and there was her
1:46:35 brother hans scholl
1:46:36 a few friends christopher props to willy
1:46:39 graf and a few people white rose
1:46:40 movement
1:46:41 they would sneak out in the night they
1:46:43 would they rented this
1:46:44 small room in the dark of the night they
1:46:46 would manually copy
1:46:48 leaflets denouncing hitler and
1:46:50 everything and they they had they would
1:46:51 buy stamps on mass and envelopes on mass
1:46:54 and post these letters all over
1:46:55 stuttgart and munich and ullman all over
1:46:58 germany and hitler was so scared he
1:46:59 thought there was some kind of a russian
1:47:00 conspiracy but there weren't there were
1:47:02 just three or four activists
1:47:03 february 22nd 1943 they were put under
1:47:05 the guillotine they were caught
1:47:07 executed you know the nazis gave her a
1:47:10 small kind of a
1:47:11 article in one of their tabloid papers
1:47:13 in this silly young youth silly activist
1:47:15 who had nothing to live for
1:47:17 today in germany there are more than 243
1:47:21 schools named after sophia shoal
1:47:23 you know her old school called ullman
1:47:26 gymnasium is now called hans and sophia
1:47:28 shoal gymnasium
1:47:30 you know darius miguel did a poll to try
1:47:32 and ascertain the greatest german woman
1:47:34 in germany they voted so few show as
1:47:36 number one
1:47:37 you know so history remembers the
1:47:39 rescuers does not remember the
1:47:41 bystanders or the perpetrators history
1:47:43 remembers those who did something to
1:47:44 help
1:47:45 my last point is this about about hope
1:47:48 and about vision inaudible
1:47:51 he realized of course the fact that
1:47:53 crusaders are taking not only
1:47:55 jerusalem but the coastlines as well and
1:47:57 they're expanding their their latin
1:47:58 kingdom of jerusalem
1:48:00 he had a three-point plan of action the
1:48:02 first was this to remind
1:48:04 the muslims that because of course this
1:48:07 is now the second generation who have
1:48:09 or the first who have not seen little
1:48:11 mock this there because
1:48:13 their their fathers did but they hadn't
1:48:15 so therefore
1:48:16 how would he uh re-inspire
1:48:19 in the heart of the muslims to have this
1:48:21 sense of yearning love for jerusalem
1:48:23 that they would potentially one day want
1:48:24 to go and settle there and live there
1:48:26 and you know recapture that place he
1:48:29 began to build a motherless
1:48:30 building program this is really a lesson
1:48:32 a reminder for all of those who are in
1:48:34 in islamic schooling
1:48:35 madras who are teaching madras's our
1:48:37 imams our
1:48:39 mawlana's you know we we we expect a lot
1:48:41 inshallah from all of you from all of us
1:48:43 nuro denzenga began a mother's building
1:48:45 program in the internal states of syria
1:48:48 hammer homs battle back in damascus and
1:48:50 so therefore he's building
1:48:52 not mothers just because the edifice of
1:48:54 the building but so that
1:48:56 in these madrasas there was a new
1:48:58 teaching of
1:49:00 my phd in fact was about this this is my
1:49:02 phd it was about me tracing the books of
1:49:06 hashem damascus and where these books
1:49:09 are being written how they're being
1:49:10 written who's attending the
1:49:12 the modulus and how they're being
1:49:14 disseminated
1:49:15 and so therefore they're bringing out
1:49:16 old books of
1:49:18 old books of valor city they're having
1:49:20 new books of
1:49:22 so that the people of that generation
1:49:24 are not
1:49:25 re do not remain ignorant of why al-quds
1:49:28 why al-aqsa
1:49:29 is so crucial for us as muslims okay
1:49:32 that's one thing so you have teaching
1:49:35 learning and teaching
1:49:36 disseminating talking about al-quds for
1:49:39 eloqua
1:49:40 merits of jerusalem number two was this
1:49:43 engi he built a minbar a very famous
1:49:46 minba they called it minibar of saladin
1:49:48 but
1:49:48 it's in fact nura dean's miner very
1:49:49 famous minbari it was a member
1:49:51 uh of of you know interlocking parts no
1:49:54 nuts no bolts
1:49:56 and he builds his minbar and he stations
1:49:58 it in aleppo and he says that you know
1:49:59 when we recapture the kudzu we're going
1:50:01 to bring this minbar down to
1:50:02 al-qud's and they're going to have our
1:50:04 first juma there of course he didn't
1:50:06 live to see that he died 1174
1:50:07 al-qudri but inspired the sense of hope
1:50:11 in the muslims never to lose hope in the
1:50:13 promise of allah subhanahu wa'ta'ala
1:50:15 always remember allah's promise these
1:50:17 narratives that we're speaking about
1:50:19 they're they're really embedded uh with
1:50:22 with
1:50:22 further narratives of hope you know
1:50:26 that's the narrative of struggle of
1:50:28 truth and falsehood the hadith that
1:50:31 uh delhi mentioned of the the best the
1:50:33 struggle is to speak the word of truth
1:50:35 in the face of a tyrant ruler
1:50:37 was a tyrant ruler and musa engaged with
1:50:39 faraon but check this out
1:50:41 the message of liberation like hamza
1:50:43 mentioned is a message of rahmah
1:50:44 because when he goes to pharaoh and he
1:50:46 says to me and my brother haroon
1:50:48 are messengers from lord of the worlds
1:50:50 and aras
1:50:57 right so therefore take out israel from
1:51:00 the ruling and bring them into justice
1:51:01 and to peace
1:51:02 and then pharaoh and says what are you
1:51:04 talking about you know i've raised you
1:51:06 as a child
1:51:06 and look at what pharaoh and this is
1:51:08 what the the prophetic the narrative is
1:51:10 so powerful musa says to
1:51:12 uh you're telling me about all of this
1:51:14 stuff and
1:51:16 is you're oppressing bani israel you
1:51:19 know
1:51:19 you're reminding me of all of these
1:51:20 favors superficial favors
1:51:23 once you're oppressing bani israel to
1:51:24 think therefore about the great
1:51:26 about the consequence of what lulam
1:51:28 actually is when muslims of course acted
1:51:30 against
1:51:31 wollam it's about volume about what
1:51:33 injustice is the prophet said
1:51:35 beware of because that is darknesses on
1:51:38 the day of judgment
1:51:39 darkness is not of judgment says
1:51:42 my servants
1:51:46 myself and i've forbidden the same
1:51:48 amongst you so do not be
1:51:49 mean you know unto one another so
1:51:51 therefore to understand therefore the
1:51:52 great consequence of dulim
1:51:54 leaves its ugliness you know dr assam
1:51:57 quraishi
1:51:58 you know he he advised me to read a book
1:52:01 this was during the course of my
1:52:03 my post talk this is going back many
1:52:04 years and he says read this book
1:52:06 this book now in fact is cited at length
1:52:08 in my book on being human and
1:52:10 also my upcoming book as well this was a
1:52:12 book published in 1949 written by an
1:52:14 anonymous author called s yizhar
1:52:17 called kirbak khiz khirbet kizzay
1:52:21 and this was a book that was written
1:52:23 about a kind of a historicized fiction
1:52:26 historical fiction
1:52:27 about expulsion of the muslims in 1940
1:52:30 in the nakba and in one of his entries
1:52:32 that i said of course in my book on
1:52:34 being human
1:52:35 he speaks about the fact that he says
1:52:37 something like
1:52:38 how you know how well the newcomers in
1:52:41 these
1:52:41 new rooms of houses that they had not
1:52:44 inhabited
1:52:45 that that belonged to other people other
1:52:47 human beings like them
1:52:48 fathers mothers in which memories were
1:52:51 built
1:52:52 in what in which love was made you know
1:52:55 in which tears were shed
1:52:56 in which people cried and laughed and
1:52:58 celebrated in those same very rooms
1:53:01 he says that the walls will scream
1:53:04 the walls will scream in their silence
1:53:06 right
1:53:07 because you're occupying somebody else's
1:53:09 place
1:53:10 in which life existed you know and it's
1:53:13 it's a really
1:53:14 it's a very powerful account of the
1:53:16 great travesty of
1:53:17 of what apartheid occupation means the
1:53:20 book is
1:53:21 it's a fiction book you know but it's a
1:53:23 reminder therefore
1:53:24 and it was written in fact by by an
1:53:26 israeli himself and as a third reminder
1:53:29 of course is this that allah the quran
1:53:30 says it does say
1:53:32 they're not all the same there are many
1:53:34 you know activists
1:53:35 even in israel today many from the
1:53:36 jewish people who are very very
1:53:38 committed to the cause of
1:53:40 of of justice for the palestinian people
1:53:42 and for them of course you know we
1:53:43 acknowledge that
1:53:44 and therefore this i think is a reminder
1:53:46 and then of course the third point
1:53:48 in nouridhin's program was to was to
1:53:51 work
1:53:51 tirelessly in bringing the muslim ummah
1:53:53 the muslim armies together
1:53:55 you know for the liberation of this and
1:53:57 so that's kind of i think i wanted just
1:53:58 to say that before
1:53:59 before time runs out well so i think
1:54:03 what i'm capturing from today's is a few
1:54:05 things
1:54:06 number one that you know the islamic
1:54:09 worldview these islamic ideas islamic
1:54:11 foundations
1:54:12 you know if you really believe in them
1:54:14 to be true and this is our kind of
1:54:16 theo philosophical stance that we could
1:54:18 even justify of course
1:54:20 that the values that emanate from that
1:54:22 are sublime and we have so many
1:54:24 historical instances and examples
1:54:26 yes we didn't we didn't over glorify our
1:54:28 history for sure we have to be nuanced
1:54:30 as delhi said for sure
1:54:31 but the things that you do find can be
1:54:33 linked back to
1:54:34 that intellectual foundation and that
1:54:36 gives us hope for the future
1:54:38 because when we speak about these things
1:54:40 we don't speak about these things from a
1:54:41 position of tyranny or oppression but
1:54:43 rather one of
1:54:44 liberation and peace and harmony for all
1:54:48 peoples as i just echoing what i
1:54:50 mentioned earlier
1:54:51 love for lynn ness love for humanity
1:54:54 love for the people what you love for
1:54:56 yourself
1:54:56 and this means that we are dedicated to
1:54:58 the commitment and goodness for all
1:54:59 people
1:55:00 and from the sapiens institute
1:55:01 perspective and this is why
1:55:04 you know i really wanted to have this on
1:55:05 a contemporary issue because how do we
1:55:07 speak about contemporary issues to link
1:55:09 it back to kind of the strategic focus
1:55:11 of sapiens institute
1:55:12 which is if you start speaking about
1:55:14 islam
1:55:15 speaking about why allah is worthy of
1:55:17 worship why he is true
1:55:19 why the quran is true why the prophet
1:55:21 sallallahu alaihi alaikum is true and he
1:55:22 is the final messenger
1:55:24 when people internalize this and
1:55:25 understand this and they
1:55:27 follow what this intellectual foundation
1:55:30 actually says
1:55:31 we will have that world where people
1:55:34 will live in peace and harmony where you
1:55:36 have the jew
1:55:37 the muslim the christian and everybody
1:55:39 else coming together to live
1:55:41 under harmony and under
1:55:44 a sense of you know collective mercy and
1:55:47 compassion so this is why it's very
1:55:48 important to link it back
1:55:50 to this theological premise which is
1:55:52 brothers this is
1:55:53 get involved in this aspect of the work
1:55:55 as well every drop
1:55:56 raises the ocean and don't forget we
1:55:59 shouldn't have
1:56:00 what you call a collective outrage sorry
1:56:02 selective outrage
1:56:04 now i don't mean it in a negative way
1:56:05 because sometimes when we see something
1:56:07 in front of us we're going to deal with
1:56:08 it of course don't forget the weaker
1:56:11 brothers and sisters
1:56:12 in your duas and and for you to act
1:56:15 don't forget about
1:56:16 all the oppressed people around the
1:56:17 world muslim and
1:56:19 non-muslim and we have to be cognizant
1:56:22 of this
1:56:23 because the muslim has to be consistent
1:56:27 i had a private chat with daily earlier
1:56:28 and he was like you know this is because
1:56:29 of a lack of consistency hamsa yes
1:56:31 he's right we need to be consistent with
1:56:33 our moral values
1:56:35 and just like what dr maynard said when
1:56:37 allah says people are not the same if
1:56:39 you look at the exegesis of this verse
1:56:41 it talks about christians and jews as
1:56:43 upright people amongst other
1:56:45 you know there are bad muslims good
1:56:46 muslims they're good christians they're
1:56:48 bad christians
1:56:49 everyone's a dynamic everyone is
1:56:51 everyone's not the same
1:56:52 so don't use this as an excuse to be
1:56:54 unjust don't let the hatred
1:56:56 of others allah says in the quran make
1:56:57 you swear from justice
1:56:59 don't use this as a kind of you know
1:57:03 brush that you just tar everyone with
1:57:05 the same brush and saying they're all
1:57:06 evil they're all the same because that
1:57:08 is not the narrative of islam
1:57:10 and echoing what uh doctors minorities
1:57:12 introduced me to this amazing essay by
1:57:14 theodore o'donnell i haven't memorized
1:57:16 the first line but it's something of the
1:57:17 following and every time i used to read
1:57:18 it to people i used to cry
1:57:20 which was one of the primary objectives
1:57:22 of education is that our switch never
1:57:24 happened again
1:57:25 so from the sapiens this is your
1:57:26 perspective we want to educate the
1:57:27 masters on how to share islamic election
1:57:29 academically
1:57:30 and that would ensure insha allah not
1:57:32 only ours which will not happen again
1:57:34 but it would ensure that all these
1:57:36 brothers and sisters in humanity
1:57:38 will have the choice and the ability
1:57:41 to meet allah and say i worshiped you
1:57:44 alone
1:57:45 because remember brothers and sisters
1:57:46 the greatest injustice is actually shulk
1:57:49 and that is something that we have to
1:57:51 understand as well and if we have that
1:57:53 in our actions and we also understand
1:57:56 that a manifestation of tawheed of
1:57:58 believing in allah and loving him and
1:57:59 obeying him
1:58:00 and worship worshiping him is actually
1:58:03 trying to solve problems all around the
1:58:05 world whether it's depression in
1:58:06 palestine
1:58:07 or in uh china or wherever it is around
1:58:11 the world
1:58:11 muslims and non-muslims that trying to
1:58:13 deal with those issues is also
1:58:15 a manifestation of your belief in and
1:58:18 how you worship allah subhanallah
1:58:20 so secularize the way we act and the way
1:58:23 we see the world
1:58:24 so i'm very honored to have had
1:58:27 brother dilly hussain allah bless him
1:58:30 mashallah
1:58:32 all the way from from bedford
1:58:34 alhamdulillah many of us need to have a
1:58:36 visa to get there i believe
1:58:40 what you do anyway
1:58:44 you know dr martin please website called
1:58:46 download being human it's about how
1:58:49 islam addresses othering dehumanization
1:58:51 and empathy
1:58:52 he's got a forthcoming book on divine
1:58:54 perfection coming out i'm really looking
1:58:55 forward to that
1:58:57 and much much more work coming from our
1:58:59 beloved
1:59:00 academic and also please follow delhi
1:59:02 hussein
1:59:03 i think he needs a bit of help on
1:59:04 twitter at the moment but he's been
1:59:06 doing quite well mashallah
1:59:08 i would advise him to uh you know be as
1:59:11 ethical as possible which i think he has
1:59:12 been doing
1:59:14 there's been some elements of me wanting
1:59:15 to laugh when we called someone a granny
1:59:19 but anyway that's for another time man i
1:59:21 bless you dilly
1:59:22 uh if there's anything else that you
1:59:24 that if there's nothing else for you to
1:59:25 say that i'm going to end it here my
1:59:26 dear brothers give salams to everybody