Is Britain still a Christian country? With Professor Linda Woodhead (2022-12-18) ​

0:00:04 hello everyone and welcome to blogging
0:00:07 theology today I'm delighted to talk to
0:00:09 Professor Linda Woodhead you're most
0:00:11 welcome Linda thank you lovely to be
0:00:14 here thank you for those who don't know
0:00:16 Professor Linda Woodhead is a British
0:00:19 academic specializing in religious
0:00:21 studies and sociology at King's College
0:00:24 here in London
0:00:26 now the BBC reported a couple of weeks
0:00:28 ago but that for the first time fewer
0:00:31 than half of people in England and Wales
0:00:33 describe themselves as Christian
0:00:36 according to the 2021 census
0:00:40 the proportion of people who said they
0:00:41 were Christian was 46.2 down from
0:00:46 59.3 in the last census in 2011. and in
0:00:51 contrast the number who said they had no
0:00:53 religion increased to 37 of the
0:00:57 population up from a quarter and
0:01:00 interestingly those who identify as
0:01:02 Muslim Rose from 4.9 in 2011 to 6.5
0:01:08 last year
0:01:10 so today Linda has kindly agreed to
0:01:13 discuss uh the burning question is
0:01:16 Britain still a Christian country
0:01:19 so over to you Linda
0:01:24 thank you I should perhaps subtitled
0:01:27 this and and why so few people like the
0:01:30 answer
0:01:31 I'll come back to that I have discovered
0:01:34 that on talking about this topic and
0:01:37 it's uh it's about it my answer is very
0:01:39 unpopular and my answer is
0:01:41 um one that's but sociologically based
0:01:43 right and I think I'll explain why I
0:01:45 think few people like the answer I think
0:01:47 that's a very interesting part of the
0:01:48 whole issue
0:01:50 so it's not just about the actual data
0:01:52 really there's a lot more at stake here
0:01:54 people have a very big stake in this on
0:01:57 either side I'll come back to that point
0:01:58 but let's just try and tackle the
0:02:00 question in as objective away we can
0:02:03 using the best evidence that we can
0:02:07 and
0:02:09 um
0:02:11 well I'll start a little anecdote I was
0:02:13 just buying some Christmas cards
0:02:14 yesterday because it's that time of year
0:02:16 at the moment and in the local
0:02:19 supermarket there were quite a lot of
0:02:21 Christmas cards but there was only one
0:02:23 that had a a Christian theme of any kind
0:02:26 it said Oh Holy Night on the Christmas
0:02:29 card and that's um that's a fairly
0:02:33 indicative thing we all celebrate
0:02:35 Christmas the entire Supermarket is
0:02:38 dedicated to Christmas but Christianity
0:02:41 has become quite a niche interest at
0:02:42 Christmas yeah and not easy to supply it
0:02:46 so that is telling us something
0:02:49 well if we I mean I think the way to
0:02:51 approach it perhaps most usefully is to
0:02:54 remember that religion all religions are
0:02:57 are complex things that have a number of
0:03:00 strands religion is not one thing it's
0:03:02 not just the beliefs it's not just the
0:03:05 going to a church or a mosque it's more
0:03:07 complex and I think that there are I go
0:03:11 through five things I think are
0:03:13 particularly important and we can look
0:03:14 at whether in relation to those Britain
0:03:17 is still Christian hmm
0:03:23 let me start with with one often that
0:03:25 gets neglected and that's let's call it
0:03:27 cosmology or metaphysics
0:03:29 the way we look at the whole universe
0:03:31 the way we see our place in relation to
0:03:34 The Wider picture
0:03:36 I think our cosmology is no longer
0:03:38 Christian
0:03:40 it's some kind of mix of you know people
0:03:42 believe in the Big Bang they say and
0:03:45 they're influenced by astrophysics and
0:03:48 they have a sense of of being a vast
0:03:51 expanding universe and we get pictures
0:03:54 being back to us
0:03:57 um and we can see how unimaginably vast
0:04:00 and beyond our perceptive apparatus it
0:04:03 is and I think that has completely won
0:04:06 out over the Christian metaphysic which
0:04:08 is of uh in a way much smaller Cosmos
0:04:12 with a Creator God who brings it into
0:04:15 being at a moment of time and will will
0:04:18 end it at a moment of time
0:04:21 that was the Christian framework for our
0:04:25 for most of our history and I think it's
0:04:27 lost ground and I think Christians are
0:04:29 quite um
0:04:31 um reluctant to really own up to that
0:04:34 and be honest about it and talk about it
0:04:35 so there's one area I think we're not a
0:04:38 Christian country anymore
0:04:41 um actually the United States is more
0:04:43 because creationism is is a certain
0:04:46 version of it is a modern version is
0:04:48 more more prevalent there yeah
0:04:50 um
0:04:51 um
0:04:53 Community it would be another aspect my
0:04:55 second aspect of what a religion is
0:04:56 religions
0:04:58 often provides strong Community they
0:05:00 provide it in a small sense that you
0:05:02 would go to church in relation to
0:05:03 Christianity and you would belong to
0:05:05 your Parish in this country
0:05:09 um that has we haven't been Christian in
0:05:11 that sense for a long time that the
0:05:13 number of people attending church now on
0:05:16 a typical Sunday is down to about five
0:05:20 or possibly six percent of the
0:05:22 population so small numbers
0:05:25 uh do people still have a sense of
0:05:27 belonging to a parish much less so for
0:05:29 lots of interesting reasons which we can
0:05:31 talk about if you like
0:05:33 um so Community absolutely were not
0:05:35 Christian intensive our communities and
0:05:38 people don't want to go to church any
0:05:41 longer
0:05:43 um
0:05:44 um I mean you could say there's a bigger
0:05:45 sense in which
0:05:47 um of community which this country was
0:05:49 Christian and that was being English or
0:05:51 Scottish
0:05:52 um the Church of England the Church of
0:05:54 Scotland and the Chapels and Wales gave
0:05:58 a sense of ethnic or national identity
0:06:02 uh that is still there to some extent
0:06:04 you could see it in the brexit vote
0:06:05 where anglicans are more likely to be
0:06:07 pro-brexit but those were older people
0:06:10 so
0:06:12 um that's much less common amounts
0:06:13 younger people and I guess it's gonna
0:06:15 die out
0:06:16 so Community I'd say no we're not uh
0:06:19 we're not Christians in where we find
0:06:21 Community anymore
0:06:24 uh my third thing would be ethics and
0:06:27 values hmm
0:06:29 and when people tick Christian on the
0:06:32 census in a lot in the um
0:06:35 in
0:06:36 um the last census
0:06:38 some people did research and they went
0:06:40 round and asked why
0:06:42 Abby day was one of the sociologists she
0:06:44 went and asked people why do you tick
0:06:45 that
0:06:46 and and one of the answers was well I'd
0:06:48 like to think I'm a Christian
0:06:50 so that's about that's about uh how you
0:06:53 behave and a lot of people would say I'd
0:06:56 like I think with Christian values are
0:06:58 still really important
0:07:00 um I don't think actually though that
0:07:01 it's right I think that the Christian
0:07:03 ethic has
0:07:04 has been replaced quite recently
0:07:07 actually but the Christian there's no
0:07:09 such thing as the Christian ethic but
0:07:10 the ethic that was dominant in the 20th
0:07:13 century was one that that elevated
0:07:15 self-sacrificial love or Agape you can
0:07:17 see it in the you know the war memorials
0:07:20 um were in the sake of a crucified or a
0:07:24 cross to symbolize the greatest
0:07:25 sacrifice of love the Christian value
0:07:27 that people were dying for people don't
0:07:29 believe in self-sacrifice
0:07:32 um in that sense now we believe much
0:07:35 more I I call it a shift from a give
0:07:37 your life to a live your life ethic We
0:07:39 Believe much more in living your life to
0:07:41 the full and really supporting other
0:07:43 people yes to do the same thing right
0:07:46 not getting your life
0:07:49 so that's that's a different ethic I
0:07:52 think we have lost
0:07:53 um
0:07:54 the Christian ethic or the church's
0:07:56 ethic is not what people listen to
0:07:57 anymore for sure
0:08:01 and
0:08:02 um
0:08:03 and then I'll do a fourth one then I'll
0:08:06 come to wherever I think we are still
0:08:07 Christian my fourth one would be
0:08:08 spirituality I mean absolutely important
0:08:11 for religion obviously
0:08:12 um and and often neglected by
0:08:15 sociologists but quite wrongly is that
0:08:17 religion is primarily in a sense about
0:08:19 putting people in relationship with
0:08:21 higher power with god with Gods with
0:08:25 Spirits with
0:08:26 with um the beyond the transcendent
0:08:30 and I think if religion I don't think
0:08:32 that's essential for religions they can
0:08:34 go a long time without
0:08:36 doing that for people but not that long
0:08:39 you know I think they die out when
0:08:40 people find they're not really providing
0:08:42 them with genuine spiritual relation
0:08:46 uh so does Christianity is it the main
0:08:49 place people go for
0:08:52 spirituality for contact with the Divine
0:08:56 these days it's very hard to research
0:08:59 that it's very hard to answer that my
0:09:03 I think yes and no
0:09:05 um older people who brought up Christian
0:09:07 much more likely if they are deeply
0:09:10 spiritual to find it in that framework
0:09:12 younger people are much more likely to
0:09:14 be attracted to Alternative forms of
0:09:17 spirituality we could see in the census
0:09:19 that's just come out that that's been
0:09:21 growing very fast
0:09:22 you can write in and that paganism
0:09:25 wicker other you know other forms of
0:09:27 shamanism and those are growing very
0:09:29 fast
0:09:31 um so in a way you could say
0:09:33 um maybe there's always been around you
0:09:35 know much more magical ways of
0:09:37 enchanting life but now they've really
0:09:39 there's no Stigma and they've come to
0:09:41 the form again no Stigma left that's
0:09:43 right no Stigma and of course there are
0:09:45 other forms of religion as well and
0:09:47 people are very interested in Islam
0:09:48 young people more likely to probably
0:09:49 have a Muslim friend who's talking a lot
0:09:52 about their faith well as likely as a
0:09:54 Christian friend so other forms of other
0:09:57 ways of of engaging with Divine as well
0:10:00 so
0:10:02 um that's the that's the fourth one the
0:10:04 spirituality and and finally I think
0:10:06 there's one sense in which we are still
0:10:07 a Christian country and that's that it
0:10:10 is institutionalized in this country you
0:10:13 know you could say it's built in and
0:10:15 it's baked in
0:10:16 it's built in the environment everywhere
0:10:20 um how how towns and cities are laid out
0:10:22 where the sacred buildings are
0:10:26 um where the church is in every village
0:10:28 in every city
0:10:30 it's in the architecture it's in the
0:10:32 place names it's in the calendar
0:10:34 it's in our festivals I started with
0:10:36 Christmas
0:10:38 um it's in our ceremonies we're about to
0:10:40 have a coronation of a new king
0:10:42 it's um it's in our symbols our rituals
0:10:46 there's a lot of everyday practices and
0:10:48 language still yeah it's there even if
0:10:51 you don't know what it where it comes
0:10:52 from it's there in the way that
0:10:54 Parliament laid out like a chapel you
0:10:56 know it's there and all sorts of things
0:10:57 people don't even notice now because
0:10:59 they're just so much
0:11:01 accustomed and that's actually a very
0:11:04 strong way in which religions have
0:11:05 always persisted and lasted very long
0:11:08 it's not insignificant at all
0:11:11 and it can support a sort of loose sense
0:11:13 of community of being a Christian
0:11:14 because while we're a Christian country
0:11:16 aren't we've got all these things
0:11:19 um and people who aren't Christian might
0:11:21 say that sometimes Muslims say that you
0:11:23 don't realize how Christian you are but
0:11:24 I can see it because it's other to me
0:11:28 so for and I've said kind of four ways
0:11:31 in which we're probably not Christian
0:11:32 anymore spirituality was a question mark
0:11:35 um and the fifth way in which we are so
0:11:37 that's I think partly why people don't
0:11:39 like the answer because the answer is
0:11:40 are we is Britain still a Christian
0:11:42 country the answer is no and yes
0:11:46 and that's not an answer that people
0:11:48 like there's another reason people don't
0:11:50 like that officer yes because there are
0:11:53 people like Tom Holland or um before him
0:11:56 Roger scrutin or Edward Norman you know
0:11:58 historians and philosophers and so on uh
0:12:00 in the media perhaps the daily mail
0:12:03 um Main Line in the daily mail it
0:12:05 doesn't like the answer because it wants
0:12:07 us to be a Christian country because it
0:12:09 has a certain set of values that it
0:12:11 wants to uphold and it identify tags
0:12:14 them as Christian I think that's that's
0:12:15 why yeah
0:12:17 um so that constituency doesn't like the
0:12:19 answer and then
0:12:21 often the media and certainly
0:12:24 explicit secularists don't like the
0:12:26 answer because they want to say we are
0:12:28 not a Christian country the first like
0:12:30 that like it felt so we are a Christian
0:12:32 country the second group don't like it
0:12:34 because they want to say we are
0:12:35 absolutely definitely not a Christian
0:12:36 country look at the census it tells you
0:12:39 less than half
0:12:42 um and and some sometimes one of the
0:12:45 reasons people don't like the answer
0:12:46 that we no and yes answer is because
0:12:49 they
0:12:51 become very common for people because
0:12:53 they're distance from religion to think
0:12:54 they're religion that to take a
0:12:55 fundamentalist view even though they're
0:12:57 secular to think that actually being
0:12:59 religion means going to church and
0:13:02 believing the Creeds well that's a very
0:13:05 odd way of looking at religion you know
0:13:07 it didn't it doesn't really work like
0:13:08 that but that's that view is become
0:13:10 quite widespread so on that
0:13:11 understanding now of course we're not a
0:13:13 Christian country
0:13:14 uh final group we don't like the answer
0:13:17 are Christians from outside the UK
0:13:20 particularly
0:13:21 from Colonial countries formerly
0:13:24 Colonial countries who see Britain you
0:13:27 know as a terrible example of awful
0:13:28 Christian Decline and secularism needing
0:13:30 missionary help
0:13:32 so so they wanted to be absolutely
0:13:34 secular uh very religious people from
0:13:37 outside the UK theaters and so you know
0:13:41 like emblem of secularism and uh Decay I
0:13:45 suppose
0:13:46 so it's a very ideologically loaded
0:13:49 issue I think yes
0:13:52 yes well thank you for that fascinating
0:13:54 the complexity of it there's not a
0:13:55 simple yes or no it's yes or no and yes
0:13:58 or yes and no uh of course and I mean
0:14:01 officially one could argue um and you
0:14:03 just touched on it uh a bit that we are
0:14:05 officially a Christian country the king
0:14:07 of the queen are the head of England
0:14:10 which is the established church is the
0:14:13 official Church of the of England
0:14:15 um the Church of England uh a House of
0:14:18 Lords which is part of the Palace of
0:14:19 Westminster the second chamber of
0:14:21 parliament it's stuffed full of like
0:14:22 that's the right word
0:14:25 um who are there by virtue of the fact
0:14:27 that they are Anglican Bishops uh that
0:14:29 is their qualification
0:14:31 um so they actually have a formal legal
0:14:33 part of the process of legislation in
0:14:35 this country
0:14:36 um so in that sense we're very much uh
0:14:38 officially Christian but all the other
0:14:40 things you say are very real as well was
0:14:43 it five six percent of the population go
0:14:45 to church uh in uh
0:14:48 yeah any church
0:14:51 um and there was another the vignette
0:14:54 here in my limited experience of
0:14:55 funerals uh in the UK and how they are
0:14:59 conducted the kinds of services that
0:15:01 people have now as opposed to them and
0:15:04 I've noticed that many there's
0:15:06 an increasing emphasis on celebrating
0:15:09 the life of the deceased at a funeral
0:15:11 service
0:15:12 as opposed to in the past well here's
0:15:15 our dear Christian Soul who has left us
0:15:17 and gone to heaven or gone to Jesus
0:15:19 whatever you know the afterlife and the
0:15:21 dev judgment are a much more
0:15:23 eschatological or otherworldly
0:15:25 understanding of a funeral service now
0:15:27 it's well let's celebrate Fred's life
0:15:29 you know oh he was a great guy and let's
0:15:31 play Frank Sinatra songs or whatever
0:15:33 after the funeral having to do with you
0:15:35 Frank Sinatra
0:15:37 um so it's become more saccharized and
0:15:39 this worldly and that transition as you
0:15:41 said from a kind of selfless self a
0:15:43 sacrificial understanding of love to
0:15:46 um celebrating the life of that person
0:15:48 the here and now uh in the Dunya as
0:15:51 Muslims put it and and that that is a
0:15:53 funeral I mentioned the funeral service
0:15:55 because that is an indicator of how
0:15:57 people's perception life and death have
0:15:59 changed as well as an indicator of the
0:16:01 loss of Christian presence in our
0:16:03 country
0:16:04 and there's another funerals have just
0:16:07 pluralized very rapidly the church has
0:16:09 lost control of funerals which is very
0:16:11 recent this established church used to
0:16:14 do the vast majority of funerals I was
0:16:15 just automatic
0:16:17 it's changed in my lifetime to be not at
0:16:19 all automatic and they're a whole range
0:16:21 and you're seeing also with younger
0:16:23 Generations now a rejection of the more
0:16:25 secular funeral and there is a lot more
0:16:28 if you go around a graveyard you'll see
0:16:30 an awful lot of Angel symbolism and
0:16:32 dream catchers and windmills and uh
0:16:36 benches and get a very strong sense that
0:16:38 the Dead live on that the spirits of the
0:16:40 Dead are available to us communicate
0:16:42 with us still
0:16:44 yes there's not a second not a secular
0:16:47 approach and this is a really important
0:16:49 Point here because I said earlier that
0:16:51 um according to the census there's a
0:16:52 2021 census in the UK or England and
0:16:54 Wales anyway not in Scotland who uh have
0:16:57 a different census the number who said
0:16:58 they had no religion increased to 37 of
0:17:01 the population uh up for the quarter now
0:17:04 I remember I saw some tweets from some
0:17:06 atheists saying aha atheism is 37
0:17:09 percent are atheists and you know and I
0:17:12 thought no that's not what's happened at
0:17:15 all actually what we're seeing is a
0:17:17 shift from former religious Allegiance
0:17:18 going to church I you know I'm a Roman
0:17:21 Catholic I'm a church of England two
0:17:23 um unofficial spiritual expressions of
0:17:26 religiosity from belief from the great
0:17:28 it's kind of coming from Belize rather
0:17:29 than top down and and I should say in in
0:17:32 the graveyards and the way that people
0:17:34 love swans are remembered
0:17:37 um we're seeing uh an evolution or
0:17:40 development of religiosity rather than a
0:17:43 secularization such an extent that will
0:17:45 any kind of religious sentiment however
0:17:47 Define is extinguished from our lives
0:17:49 that's not happened it's just morphed
0:17:52 into something different would that be
0:17:53 accurate that's really true so
0:17:56 um and so no one answer is ever right
0:18:01 and why should it be we are not secular
0:18:03 and we're not becoming increasingly
0:18:05 secular we are not religious of becoming
0:18:07 increasingly religious these monolithic
0:18:11 views that it's all going to go one way
0:18:13 until all going to homogenously be the
0:18:15 same it's just not happened so so all
0:18:19 those predictions whether it was we're
0:18:21 going to evangelize the whole country
0:18:22 which people thought at the beginning of
0:18:24 the 20th century everyone's going to
0:18:25 become Christian or it's going to become
0:18:27 increasingly scientific and secular no
0:18:30 one's going to be religious both wrong
0:18:32 in a way what's one out I suppose is
0:18:35 sort of um is um is sort of Human Rights
0:18:38 and the law that we are in a country
0:18:39 where you have the freedom to choose
0:18:41 your religion or belief and people do
0:18:44 and that's becoming a way a kind of new
0:18:46 sacred so most parents think it's up to
0:18:50 my child to decide and indeed most
0:18:52 children do decide for themselves now
0:18:54 and they decide different things so we
0:18:57 have this rich
0:18:58 clear diversity and pluralism of
0:19:01 different and competing views
0:19:03 religious and non-religious
0:19:05 yes and I mean the question
0:19:08 um here of uh the remarkable statistic
0:19:10 uh of those identifying as Muslim in in
0:19:13 England and Wells Road some 4.9 in 2011
0:19:16 to 6.5
0:19:17 uh last year and many will say oh well
0:19:20 that's just immigration of course people
0:19:22 from the uh you know Pakistan and of
0:19:25 course that is true to some extent but
0:19:27 it's not the only reason because these
0:19:28 people could just become very
0:19:30 secularized like the Christians have but
0:19:32 I think you know that that's not
0:19:33 happening and that Muslims are retaining
0:19:37 the Integrity of their faith as as a
0:19:39 fairly conservative understanding of
0:19:41 like the universe and everything uh and
0:19:43 also sexual mores social mores
0:19:45 traditional gender roles and so on but
0:19:48 why why is the Muslim Community
0:19:51 um you know uh persisting in its the
0:19:54 Integrity of its Faith whereas other
0:19:55 Faith communities are seeing it's um
0:19:58 deconstruction and decline as you've
0:20:00 described
0:20:02 uh um I think a number of answers I mean
0:20:05 one one is that
0:20:07 um Islam is important to maintaining a
0:20:09 sense of a minority identity
0:20:13 um so my minorities often do do better
0:20:16 you know religious minorities support
0:20:18 have strong support internal support for
0:20:21 that identity because they have to fight
0:20:23 for their identity against the majority
0:20:26 that's part of the answer also because
0:20:28 Islam like Judaism is much better at
0:20:32 passing on the faith domestically it
0:20:34 doesn't need clergy
0:20:36 it doesn't need mosques it can do it at
0:20:40 home and that's of an effective form of
0:20:42 transmission
0:20:43 it's being done in the home by parents
0:20:46 and they can be celebrated in the home
0:20:48 and particularly for women that's the
0:20:50 case in Islam
0:20:53 um but Islam's actually also very
0:20:55 successful in establishing after school
0:20:57 places of learning
0:21:01 um for children and in transmitting the
0:21:04 faith in those sorts of ways
0:21:06 uh and actually British Islam is really
0:21:10 significant I think in the world on the
0:21:12 world Islamic scene because it's
0:21:14 actually rather creative and
0:21:17 we're now into third or fourth
0:21:19 generation of Muslims so the initial
0:21:21 battles have been won of course as it
0:21:23 was still a huge amount of ill feeling
0:21:25 in islamophobia but the initial battles
0:21:27 have been won the infrastructure's there
0:21:29 the community's established it's counted
0:21:31 in the census it's got basically
0:21:33 infrastructure you can get
0:21:35 halal food there are mosques and so on
0:21:37 the early Generations had to really
0:21:39 struggle for that but now that's there
0:21:40 so the confidence about it and it's
0:21:43 allowing young people and students today
0:21:45 and many are going into higher education
0:21:46 lots of my students are Muslim to
0:21:49 explore their faith
0:21:51 um to experiment with new forms of
0:21:53 Islamic music and poetry and creativity
0:21:56 and it's become quite a cool form of
0:21:58 Islam worldwide that other young Muslims
0:22:01 look to so um I think we're seeing a lot
0:22:03 very I've watched this space I think
0:22:05 there's a the kind of creativity that
0:22:07 Christianity used to Foster in young
0:22:09 people I think Islam is doing very
0:22:11 successfully with young Muslims in
0:22:13 Britain today could you you said this I
0:22:15 I I'm quoting you from a recent lecture
0:22:17 Islam is Central to emerging Muslim
0:22:19 youth identities in the UK and it's
0:22:22 still cool I mean you use this
0:22:24 uh cool unlike Christianity this is
0:22:27 verbatim quote British Muslim cultural
0:22:30 output is cool around the world so it's
0:22:33 not just within the UK globally now why
0:22:37 is it so called what is it that's been
0:22:39 exported that globally is is thought to
0:22:42 be so cool
0:22:43 yeah
0:22:44 it's partly fashion address it's music
0:22:48 it's or things are important in young
0:22:51 people's cultures
0:22:53 um and it's partly I think because there
0:22:55 isn't because there isn't
0:22:58 a clergy with real control in Islam like
0:23:01 there is in the churches so clergy make
0:23:04 things very uncool when you've got older
0:23:07 people around of course it's not cool
0:23:09 you know parents clergy anyone older
0:23:12 who's putting restrictions around what
0:23:14 you can say and do is going to make it
0:23:16 extremely uncool for for it you know
0:23:19 modern young people and and Islam you
0:23:22 know for young people young Muslims have
0:23:23 sense Freer to do everything
0:23:26 here because you say that and I I take
0:23:28 that as a sociological point of view
0:23:30 what you say makes sense however Islam
0:23:32 of all religions there's a religion by
0:23:34 definition the word Islam in Arabic
0:23:36 means submission and so you're not free
0:23:39 to make up your rule as a Muslim you're
0:23:40 not free you look to your creator for
0:23:43 guidelines and parameters
0:23:45 for how you live your life it is a very
0:23:48 structural religion in that sense I mean
0:23:50 that are not permissible just cohabiting
0:23:53 a bad one that is not permissible
0:23:55 um this is quite strict and yeah why a
0:23:58 culture there's no problem with men and
0:24:00 women cohabiting and yet it's completely
0:24:02 taboo and everyone accepts it as taboo
0:24:04 by the way even those who break the
0:24:06 rules still understand that it's a rule
0:24:09 that is being broken so there's a
0:24:10 paradox here they're not sociologically
0:24:12 I get what you're saying but religiously
0:24:14 the religion is very clear on right and
0:24:16 wrong Haram Halal in how we live our
0:24:19 lives sure yes very often it is but I
0:24:21 I'm decided I'm I'm deciding I'm looking
0:24:24 at the online fact where I'm looking at
0:24:26 I'm learning it I'm looking at the Quran
0:24:28 I've learned Arabic I'm decided with
0:24:30 myself
0:24:31 um you know that's that's
0:24:33 that's of course you're doing it you're
0:24:35 trying to understand what it's telling
0:24:36 you
0:24:38 um but you're not deferring to an older
0:24:41 guy
0:24:43 that's what's not cool
0:24:47 yeah that's a bit interesting uh
0:24:49 distinction there
0:24:51 um you also asked uh you've also asked I
0:24:53 think a particularly insightful question
0:24:55 if I can put it like this you asked will
0:24:57 Islam keep intellectually will it remain
0:25:01 intellectually vibrant and you said that
0:25:05 is the key question I think and I think
0:25:06 that's a very good question and I I'm
0:25:09 I'm very happy uh without being
0:25:11 patronized that you you reference
0:25:13 explicitly reference Cambridge Muslim
0:25:14 college with um uh Abdul Hakim Murad
0:25:17 although otherwise known as Tim winter
0:25:19 at Cambridge University he's the dean
0:25:21 founder that and now there's a whole
0:25:23 host of other academics Young Generation
0:25:25 of Scholars who are now uh on the staff
0:25:28 there who are teaching a new generation
0:25:30 of Muslim leaders and academics
0:25:32 in the UK and I think that each of this
0:25:35 is going to be if not already Global
0:25:38 um and I think you you highlighted that
0:25:41 as an example of actually uh
0:25:43 intellectual vibrancy in the Indigenous
0:25:46 British Muslim culture
0:25:48 I did I think and the bigger point is
0:25:51 um there's a sort of internal debate I
0:25:53 think in British Islam about whether the
0:25:56 version that says oh Islam is a religion
0:25:58 of Law and ethics
0:26:00 is going to win out
0:26:02 um and it's been very dominant and
0:26:03 Powerful for a long time or whether the
0:26:06 The View that says there's a really
0:26:08 strong theological tradition and we
0:26:10 shouldn't neglect it and say it's all
0:26:11 about ethics and law
0:26:13 um and I think Tim winter and Cambridge
0:26:15 School stand more for that and so they
0:26:18 ask bigger questions as well and this is
0:26:21 about keeping intellectually vibrant if
0:26:22 we go back to my you know metaphysics
0:26:24 cosmology really matters uh and open
0:26:28 ethical debate really matters as well
0:26:30 and religions that don't
0:26:32 keep an intellectual tradition alive
0:26:34 don't last very long I think that was
0:26:36 part of the problem with the churches in
0:26:37 Britain the church is withdrew
0:26:39 particularly Church of England and a
0:26:41 Catholic Church withdrew from
0:26:42 intellectual life they literally
0:26:45 withdrew their training from
0:26:46 universities which had always been the
0:26:48 case for clergy quite recently and
0:26:53 they became increasingly
0:26:55 anti-intellectual and I think that's
0:26:57 always it's always the death Knoll for
0:26:59 religion because young people ask big
0:27:01 questions and if they don't get
0:27:02 satisfactory answers
0:27:04 they go somewhere else where they are
0:27:06 going to find that I think I think that
0:27:08 that's absolutely true there's also the
0:27:09 sense and it's just my own personal
0:27:10 subjective non-academic perspective it
0:27:13 is that uh and I I don't I'm not trying
0:27:15 to be rude here but the Church of
0:27:16 England is often seen as just irrelevant
0:27:18 to life
0:27:20 um uh but in contrast to a religion like
0:27:23 Islam which offers uh it's called the
0:27:25 dean you know the sense of uh a
0:27:28 comprehensive understanding of life
0:27:29 meaning it's a totality not just
0:27:31 theology but law ethics you know
0:27:33 marriage uh inheritance Finance you name
0:27:36 it there's uh it's all encompassing
0:27:38 within the dean and and that that uh and
0:27:42 so it's seen as offering answers to you
0:27:44 know how should I live my life how
0:27:46 should I relate to my employer how
0:27:47 should I treat my wife you know um
0:27:49 should I be just and caring to my
0:27:51 neighbors for the answer of course in
0:27:52 Islam and in Christianity is yes
0:27:55 um so it offers this helpful way of
0:27:57 navigating and living a life before God
0:27:58 and it's perceived right or wrong the
0:28:01 Church of England say the Civic doesn't
0:28:03 have that comprehension intensive
0:28:06 packet not package but way of living
0:28:09 life religion in the broadest sense by
0:28:11 which people can access and live in it's
0:28:13 something you do on Sundays you you may
0:28:15 go at Christmas you may go yeah and
0:28:18 maybe you might have the vicar for the
0:28:19 funeral maybe for the baptism perhaps
0:28:21 that's kind of is whereas Islam you have
0:28:24 Ramadan every year which is like a very
0:28:27 absorbing uh you know time of fasting
0:28:29 it's much more community and and based
0:28:32 and an integrated understanding of life
0:28:35 that that may be the strength of Islam
0:28:38 over again I'm gonna disagree with you
0:28:41 here I'm gonna find yourself offending
0:28:43 the Church of England
0:28:45 um
0:28:45 I mean if Islam in this country lasts
0:28:48 for as long as the Church of England
0:28:49 with as much strength it'll be doing
0:28:51 unbelievably well think how long the
0:28:53 Church of England maintained enormous
0:28:56 influence and in this country it's
0:28:58 astonishing this achievement how did it
0:29:01 do that it did that I think by having a
0:29:03 very very compelling comprehensive
0:29:06 um view of the kind you're talking about
0:29:08 it didn't have to do it as explicitly as
0:29:13 Islam as a minority in a majority has to
0:29:15 do it
0:29:16 finding their way in a country that's an
0:29:18 alien country and often hostile
0:29:21 it was the majority so you can you can
0:29:24 do it in a much more implicit way but
0:29:27 um people were brought until very
0:29:29 recently people were brought up in that
0:29:31 context it was just part of the fabric
0:29:33 of life it provided a very clear set of
0:29:36 values it provided an absolutely clear
0:29:38 set of rituals and ceremonies for your
0:29:40 individual life from Cradle to grave and
0:29:43 for the cycle of the Christian year and
0:29:45 it regulated the whole local community
0:29:47 so it's just what you're saying when it
0:29:49 was when it was successful and it was
0:29:50 for a very long time that's what it did
0:29:52 it ceased to be able to do that for
0:29:55 various reasons only relatively recently
0:29:58 only two or three generations ago
0:30:02 I did those as a very good very good
0:30:04 answer and I think um the the Muslim
0:30:07 Community and this is the slight danger
0:30:09 of seeing it as the Muslim minority
0:30:11 community in Britain Muslims see
0:30:12 themselves as part of a global Umar
0:30:14 which absolutely absolutely two billion
0:30:17 people and globally uh Islam is uh very
0:30:20 much on the rise numerically and in
0:30:22 terms of perhaps gaining its confidence
0:30:24 and its own understanding of its
0:30:26 self-identity and so on and that's still
0:30:28 ongoing and playing out we've seen in
0:30:30 this issue emerging even during the
0:30:32 World Cup with the support from Morocco
0:30:34 amongst many non uh Moroccan Muslims
0:30:36 because it was see as a Muslim team who
0:30:38 traded sujued and so on
0:30:41 um and so it's not like just like the
0:30:44 Church of England which was a National
0:30:45 Church uh very much not part of the
0:30:48 Roman Catholic community and that was
0:30:49 the whole point that's very true
0:30:51 very it's very different kind of church
0:30:53 it's extremely important to realize that
0:30:55 people get confused and think all
0:30:56 churches are like each other they're not
0:30:58 they're incredibly different so you're
0:31:00 right the nearest analog to British
0:31:02 Islam is British Roman Catholicism or
0:31:06 rather English and Scottish because they
0:31:07 were quite different really
0:31:09 um and that was a minority Faith you
0:31:12 know since the Reformation uh in the
0:31:15 16th century that was a persecuted
0:31:17 minority uh for a long time and it
0:31:20 developed that sense for that reason and
0:31:22 then um you know that sense of minority
0:31:24 status of reinforced in the 19th century
0:31:26 when it went up with Irish migration so
0:31:28 catholicin was a migrant religion with
0:31:31 people who were looked down on
0:31:33 um in really quite similar ways and
0:31:35 there was violence and prejudice against
0:31:37 Catholics and that lives on in the way
0:31:38 that Catholics in this country think of
0:31:40 themselves as well so very very
0:31:42 different for the majority churches in
0:31:44 Scotland and England absolutely that's a
0:31:48 a much better analogy I think with the
0:31:49 the Catholic presence in England part of
0:31:51 the universal communion as they see
0:31:53 themselves the body of Christ as they
0:31:55 continue that's the point of that point
0:31:57 I was trying I forgot to say but yes
0:31:59 oral understanding that we are a limb of
0:32:01 this larger body uh it's obviously a
0:32:03 metal yeah so even though we're
0:32:04 oppressed in this country we know that
0:32:07 we've got this you know we're actually
0:32:09 bigger worldwide and it's a very
0:32:10 distinct sense yes and and that is the
0:32:14 same uh there's certainly a parallel
0:32:15 there in analog with the the Muslim Uma
0:32:17 uh Global even since the corporeal
0:32:19 metaphor is there in um some of the
0:32:21 hadiths uh as as well but but this but
0:32:24 but doesn't this whole discussion isn't
0:32:26 it distorted it it might give the
0:32:28 impression that religion is on the
0:32:30 decline as such now you're not saying
0:32:32 that you're saying religion in the UK is
0:32:34 on the decline but of course globally uh
0:32:37 this is not the case or even in Eastern
0:32:40 Europe Poland Hungary Russia uh Africa
0:32:43 South America religion Christianity and
0:32:46 Islam are still very much vibrant alive
0:32:48 face and are not declining it just seems
0:32:51 to be there I mean you may disagree
0:32:53 because you're the expert but it seems
0:32:55 to me this is a Western European issue
0:32:57 problem and to some extent in the United
0:32:59 States which is kind of lagging behind
0:33:01 but we're seeing similar kinds of
0:33:02 processes Dynamics going on there
0:33:04 although religion there is still more
0:33:06 robust arguably
0:33:08 um but in Western Europe and perhaps
0:33:10 Canada New Zealand and Australia the the
0:33:12 former colonies we are seeing a decline
0:33:14 but this is unusual I'm saying this is a
0:33:16 minority in a much more robust Rosy
0:33:19 picture for religious uh life and
0:33:22 vitality globally would you agree with
0:33:24 that
0:33:25 yeah probably yes but um
0:33:28 it's not it's not just Western Europe
0:33:31 um former former communist countries
0:33:35 are often highly non-religious as well
0:33:37 and some have some have some have
0:33:40 re-sacralized that is unusual you know
0:33:42 like like like we didn't expect it but
0:33:44 that has happened in in Russia be an
0:33:46 obvious example some haven't like
0:33:48 Czechoslovakia and East Germany
0:33:50 extremely secular very secular Britain
0:33:53 isn't the most secular country in the
0:33:55 world
0:33:56 um of course the whole of China comes
0:33:58 out as very non-religious on surveys but
0:34:00 that's a bit misleading there are
0:34:03 because if you go to China you'll see
0:34:05 all sorts of local spiritual practices
0:34:08 but they don't fit any none of the world
0:34:10 religions and there's a political
0:34:12 obviously a political reason as well why
0:34:14 people don't say they're religious in
0:34:15 China so so the world picture is complex
0:34:18 um I think it's also complex
0:34:21 um books have got very very poor data
0:34:23 from a lot of places so in Africa
0:34:25 everyone always says Africa's incredibly
0:34:27 religious but yes and no I think when
0:34:29 you go there
0:34:31 um and it depends where and
0:34:34 um actually people often get it is very
0:34:36 religious in a sense people go to lots
0:34:37 of different churches and traditional
0:34:39 practices but they get they get sort of
0:34:42 five times counted
0:34:44 so I'm always a bit wary of the of the
0:34:47 it's incredibly growing everywhere kind
0:34:49 of picture but you're right on the whole
0:34:51 you know non-religion and secularism is
0:34:53 definitely
0:34:55 um a minority
0:34:56 a minority approach historically and
0:35:00 globally but but this is important
0:35:01 because I mean I'm not a sociologist and
0:35:03 you are but I mean I seem to vaguely
0:35:05 remember uh eminent sociologist the
0:35:08 American Peter Berger uh from I think
0:35:10 Boston University who in his early
0:35:12 career he died recently I think I was a
0:35:14 great Advocate and proponent of this
0:35:16 idea of secularization as modality
0:35:18 increases and uh modernism and so on uh
0:35:22 religious uh belief is going to decline
0:35:24 because of the rise of Science and
0:35:25 alternative cosmologies and so on
0:35:27 secularization and he said recently on a
0:35:29 video at the end of a very long and
0:35:32 distinguished career as a sociologist
0:35:33 that he was just wrong he admitted that
0:35:36 this was just a failed hypothesis that
0:35:39 secularization as expected by the
0:35:41 sociologists had not actually happened
0:35:43 and that religion uh obviously is
0:35:45 referring globally was very much on the
0:35:48 ascendant and engaging people
0:35:50 passionately people are passionate about
0:35:51 faith I don't necessarily mean in the
0:35:53 Church of England I'm sorry I had to be
0:35:55 rude about judging again but I mean
0:35:56 globally and so this hasn't happened why
0:35:59 does sociologists get it so wrong do you
0:36:01 think
0:36:03 um I think it it was there was a wide it
0:36:07 wasn't just sociology it was uh
0:36:10 um
0:36:10 a social scientific of the broad sense
0:36:13 view that
0:36:15 religion would decline
0:36:17 as societies modernized and it was a
0:36:20 very Western Enlightenment view it was
0:36:24 an ideologically driven review that that
0:36:27 science will inevitably drive out
0:36:28 religion because religion is
0:36:30 superstitious and will become more and
0:36:32 more rational and Science and therefore
0:36:34 religion will disappear so it was it was
0:36:36 it wasn't really an empirical the tested
0:36:38 hypothesis it was an ideological hope
0:36:41 for Western Scientific domination
0:36:45 has has not come about but as I say I
0:36:49 mean we just have to abandon this idea
0:36:51 that there's one answer that everywhere
0:36:53 is getting everywhere the world's
0:36:54 getting more religious
0:36:55 in safaris peterberg are saying that
0:36:57 that's not true either or the world's
0:36:59 getting more secular you have the better
0:37:01 much better sociologists David Martin
0:37:03 who is the first to say back in the 70s
0:37:05 to attack the secularization thesis and
0:37:07 say look at each each Nation because
0:37:10 it's got a distinct history and
0:37:12 something distinct is going to happen
0:37:13 and that's what's happened so if you
0:37:15 look at Iran now
0:37:18 um
0:37:18 uh again it's hard to get very accurate
0:37:21 data but there's an awful lot of
0:37:23 indications that Iran has become
0:37:24 incredibly secular yes yes yeah
0:37:28 no absolutely strong The Atheist because
0:37:31 of the particular you know political
0:37:33 Alliance of religion that that people
0:37:36 now reject because of its abuses the
0:37:39 same thing has happened in the United
0:37:40 States which everyone said oh it's
0:37:41 exceptionally religious it's an
0:37:43 exception to the case but there's been a
0:37:46 collapse uh in the last 25 years of
0:37:50 Christianity in the US and it is now
0:37:53 been demonstrated by good evidence that
0:37:55 that is tied up with Christianity
0:37:57 getting captured by
0:37:59 the Evangelical bright and those who
0:38:02 don't belong to that therefore
0:38:03 disavowing Christianity amongst young
0:38:05 people so there are very specific
0:38:07 stories that go with the political
0:38:09 circumstances of different parts of the
0:38:11 world and and we have to just realize
0:38:13 it's actually more diverse and there
0:38:15 isn't ever going to be one
0:38:16 meta-narrative that's going to gonna
0:38:18 tell you and there's so far as
0:38:19 sociologists want to believe in a single
0:38:20 meta-narrative don't distrust them right
0:38:23 the The Meta narrative is there is no
0:38:26 metanarrative there is no overarching a
0:38:28 single one-size-fits-all
0:38:30 um you know model of everywhere it is
0:38:33 different depending Iran is a
0:38:34 particularly unique place I think
0:38:35 because of the uh extraordinary events
0:38:37 that happening at the moment and then
0:38:38 disillusion people must be feeling it
0:38:40 what's perceived to be the most
0:38:42 oppressive
0:38:43 um uh harsh uh regime uh there and I
0:38:46 know nothing about it
0:38:47 one gets and of course very similar or
0:38:50 look at Ireland look at what's happened
0:38:51 in Ireland it's a very similar reasons
0:38:54 terrible abuses of Power by a religious
0:38:57 institution that was dominant and it
0:38:59 just collapses you know incredibly
0:39:01 quickly when when that in those
0:39:04 conditions religion can go very swiftly
0:39:07 that's interesting Islam more generally
0:39:09 um has as you know no clergy I mean
0:39:12 obviously sheer the sheer understanding
0:39:13 of Islam apart the 10 or the 90 of Sunni
0:39:17 Islam there's no clergy there's no
0:39:19 hierarchy uh that there's no priesthood
0:39:21 lording it over or people to tell you
0:39:24 um it has a kind of demotic kind of
0:39:26 Grassroots appeal to it but by
0:39:28 attraction rather than authoritarianism
0:39:31 um Iran exception because of its unique
0:39:34 uh history history and that is both a
0:39:37 weakness given there isn't a caliphate
0:39:40 there isn't a a single Imam who uh
0:39:42 historically has uh been the ruler the
0:39:44 like think of the Ottoman Empire and
0:39:46 preceding that but also um as you say an
0:39:49 attraction because you don't have the
0:39:50 younger people don't feel there's an
0:39:52 older authority figure telling them they
0:39:54 can identify with a a way of life which
0:39:58 they find intrinsically attractive
0:40:01 okay so um in terms of the future then I
0:40:04 I mean you don't have a crystal ball I
0:40:06 take it but um are you thinking in terms
0:40:09 okay so some sociologists have liked to
0:40:11 as we've already discussed make
0:40:13 predictions about the future and some of
0:40:15 them are not just sociologists as you
0:40:17 rightly say uh some of them got it wrong
0:40:19 in the past so I'm going to ask you to
0:40:20 do what
0:40:21 but what is your uh prediction for the
0:40:24 future of Britain are we just going to
0:40:26 see a continued inexorable decline of
0:40:29 religion understood in this official
0:40:32 traditional
0:40:33 and an increase in popular you mentioned
0:40:37 paganism Shamanism and Islam and so on
0:40:40 oh are we going to how do you see the
0:40:42 future rolling out because you did in
0:40:44 your lecture you you quoted from a book
0:40:45 written I don't know 30 years ago or
0:40:47 something which actually start a
0:40:49 particular chronological time now and
0:40:51 you see the predictions in that book
0:40:52 were actually most yes remarkably
0:40:55 accurate
0:40:56 um and I thought wow I didn't expect
0:40:58 that
0:40:59 um so how do you see the next 30 Years
0:41:01 rolling out for the UK do you think yes
0:41:05 um that was a book called 2020 visions
0:41:07 that was written by
0:41:09 religious studies and sociology religion
0:41:13 people
0:41:14 um 30 years ago so it was I I didn't
0:41:16 expect I picked it up that it would be
0:41:18 so accurate but they really got it right
0:41:19 in this country
0:41:21 um I think the reason they got well they
0:41:23 were very perceptive about the driving
0:41:25 forces but also we do have very we've
0:41:28 got good data now to establish Trends
0:41:31 and we can be quite confident that those
0:41:34 Trends will continue in relation to the
0:41:37 churches because they're so long lasting
0:41:40 so actually Christian decline in this
0:41:41 country has been going on
0:41:43 probably for 100 years but we know from
0:41:45 the data for 50 years steadily every
0:41:48 year completely steady and that is
0:41:51 because it's actually about children not
0:41:54 following being half as likely as
0:41:56 their parents to be Christian so that's
0:41:59 really where religious change happens
0:42:02 so that's inexorable there's no reason
0:42:04 to think that that's going to change
0:42:05 what's interesting is that nothing's
0:42:08 made a difference it hasn't gone up and
0:42:09 down in the 60s or because of a Revival
0:42:11 or you know it just steadily goes down
0:42:14 so I would expect that to continue the
0:42:17 big churches to continue that and yes
0:42:19 you will find everyone says oh but
0:42:21 there's a Evangelical Church in the
0:42:23 local you know University Town that's
0:42:25 doing well there is there's one in every
0:42:27 University Town doing well it's not even
0:42:29 a tiny blip on the horizon well black
0:42:31 Pentecostal churches African Heritage
0:42:34 ones yes they're doing very well they're
0:42:35 not they're such tiny numbers overall
0:42:37 that's the that's why it doesn't change
0:42:39 the trend line gosh
0:42:42 um but that will I'm confidently say
0:42:44 that will continue
0:42:46 um I'm much less confident about whether
0:42:47 the growth in Islam we've seen it in the
0:42:52 later census Islam Hinduism Sikhism
0:42:54 Judaism is steady I'm much less
0:42:57 confident that will continue I wouldn't
0:42:58 want to predict that it's very hard to
0:43:01 sustained growth
0:43:02 up across up Generations
0:43:05 and the same with
0:43:07 alternative spirituality even though
0:43:09 it's growing very rapidly and it has
0:43:11 been growing for two or three
0:43:13 generations because particularly in
0:43:16 societies like ours where there's a
0:43:19 premium on choosing your own religion
0:43:23 that means there's a premium on not just
0:43:24 doing what your parents did
0:43:27 so it's very hard to sustain
0:43:29 a continuity we see this in a lot of
0:43:32 groups that that flourish for 20 or 30
0:43:35 years and then they fail to get the Next
0:43:37 Generation or the one after that so
0:43:39 it'll be extremely interesting to see
0:43:41 what happens to the smaller growing
0:43:43 religions and I'm not going to predict
0:43:45 about those but but the the continued
0:43:47 Rise of non-religion and the decline of
0:43:49 Christianity in this country I would
0:43:51 confidently predict that will continue
0:43:53 in our lifetimes
0:43:55 gosh that's quite pessimistic I know
0:43:58 many Muslims would uh uh be disturbed by
0:44:00 that because uh that they would not want
0:44:02 uh a robust Christian Church uh or any
0:44:04 Christian Church replaced by just a
0:44:06 nihilistic kind of secularist emptiness
0:44:09 that they would want some uh something
0:44:10 why would it be a nihilistic secularist
0:44:12 emptiness um because this is one of the
0:44:14 caricatures isn't it well yes but is
0:44:16 there not a truth in that caricature
0:44:18 that if if one follow if one follows
0:44:20 Nietzsche for example I'm not saying the
0:44:22 population at large I don't
0:44:25 um there is a sense that you know what
0:44:27 is there on offer if one takes the
0:44:29 Transcendent the sense of uh the Divine
0:44:32 out of one's well I will confidently
0:44:35 predict that the Transcendent will be
0:44:36 not taken out of the equation
0:44:38 interesting interesting I will predict
0:44:41 another thing and I this is this is um I
0:44:44 I this is my unproven hypothesis only
0:44:48 one in five people have ever been really
0:44:50 spiritual and that won't change
0:44:52 I think it's pretty steady I just think
0:44:54 that's steady you know people who really
0:44:56 really want care about a devout that one
0:45:00 person in your family who prayed a lot
0:45:03 or
0:45:05 deeply cared about their faith change
0:45:07 you know had a strong relationship with
0:45:10 God or Spirit or the powers
0:45:14 it's a minority sport it always has been
0:45:16 and it always will be and I don't think
0:45:18 it could get much I don't think it goes
0:45:20 up much up or down what goes up and down
0:45:22 is what's socially acceptable
0:45:24 okay the a pushback from that uh um from
0:45:27 my completely non-academic non-scholarly
0:45:29 approach
0:45:30 scholarly hypothesis
0:45:36 I'm going to challenge your hunter in my
0:45:38 hunch I think a great privilege of
0:45:40 speaking to Professor Dale Allison who's
0:45:41 a professor at Princeton Theological
0:45:43 Seminary just uh four or five days ago
0:45:45 about his new book
0:45:46 um about
0:45:48 um secularism and religious experiences
0:45:49 in the secular world and um I don't know
0:45:52 if you're familiar with that but it's
0:45:53 astonishing book and um is it typical
0:45:56 kind of erudite but he doesn't he's not
0:45:58 dogmatic he is quite hesitant to he's
0:46:00 talking about a range of religious
0:46:02 experiences whether it be near-death
0:46:04 experiences or people seeing uh these
0:46:07 loved ones or uh uh the the perceived
0:46:10 presence of a malevolent Spirit or
0:46:12 angels and so on and so on those
0:46:15 extraordinary accounts and these are all
0:46:16 now well researched it's not just gossip
0:46:19 there's now a lot of research showing
0:46:21 how common these experiences are they're
0:46:24 not
0:46:24 um you know statistically and now people
0:46:26 are opening up about them in the 50s and
0:46:28 60s and 70s most people were very
0:46:30 reluctant to admit they've had a
0:46:32 religious mystical experience yes now
0:46:34 most people uh admit that they do now I
0:46:37 mentioned this is because
0:46:39 um if you're was it one in five
0:46:41 hypothesis
0:46:43 20 in other words the 105 hypothesis
0:46:46 that's a good name for it okay oh dear
0:46:48 why don't you find spiritual hypothesis
0:46:50 thank you yeah I get the impression from
0:46:52 my completely uh non-scholarly memory um
0:46:55 that uh the that there's much more
0:46:58 common than this in the population and
0:47:01 also randomly it's not like religious
0:47:03 people are having these experiences
0:47:05 everyone not everyone but they are
0:47:07 equally to be found or just as likely to
0:47:09 be found amongst atheists self-described
0:47:11 atheists and non-religious people as
0:47:14 well as religious people and that this
0:47:16 is uh uh you know and whole industries
0:47:18 that like they're devoted to you know
0:47:20 Angel worship or you know uh or whatever
0:47:23 and I mentioned this because it it just
0:47:24 seems to be much more widespread than
0:47:27 the 20 would suggest now I'm not saying
0:47:30 this is religion in any traditional
0:47:32 sense but it is a kind of spirituality
0:47:35 slash mysticism slash concern with the
0:47:38 supernatural slash whatever whatever
0:47:40 that really does overlap with a lot of
0:47:43 religious traditional religious concerns
0:47:45 and and cosmology actually and this
0:47:48 seems to be unaffected so Professor
0:47:51 Alison said unaffected by any
0:47:53 saccharization of the world it seems to
0:47:55 continue on and on and on regardless of
0:47:58 what's happening in the academy uh with
0:48:01 skeptical signs saying oh we whatever
0:48:04 this just carries on anyway
0:48:08 no I think that's that's really what my
0:48:10 my one in five hypothesis says I would
0:48:13 agree with that there is this constancy
0:48:16 of experience of the Supernatural and
0:48:19 the sacred
0:48:21 um
0:48:22 and it it
0:48:24 what I disagree is that it's it's it's
0:48:26 it's it's that widespread because we do
0:48:29 have quite a lot of polling data on
0:48:31 belief in angels and other sorts of
0:48:34 sometimes called a paranormal but
0:48:36 um Spirits etc etc there's a lot of
0:48:38 polling on it now and it tends to come
0:48:40 out about 20 of people who have these
0:48:42 experiences the difference between
0:48:44 believing in ghosts and experiencing a
0:48:46 ghost but those who actually have the
0:48:48 experiences
0:48:49 um and those for whom they're important
0:48:50 I think it's nearer one in five but I do
0:48:52 agree that they're they've they seem to
0:48:54 have always been there sometimes you
0:48:56 can't talk about them because they're
0:48:57 stigmatized like you say now we can and
0:48:59 so it's much more open but have there
0:49:02 always been fortune tellers and wise
0:49:04 people in every village town and City
0:49:07 yes of course they have and there are in
0:49:09 this country and I often I was trying to
0:49:11 make a point of going to them when I go
0:49:13 somewhere because they're absolutely
0:49:14 fascinating and um and far more profound
0:49:17 and interesting in what they offer than
0:49:19 people often think so there is there's
0:49:21 always been that often working class
0:49:24 often women highly stigmatized and the
0:49:27 really important point you've raised
0:49:29 here is that we have become so in a way
0:49:32 um
0:49:33 we've bought into the propaganda of
0:49:35 monotheistic religions but all religion
0:49:37 is really about our God and everything
0:49:40 else is superstition and we shouldn't
0:49:42 take it seriously that's an ideological
0:49:45 Viewpoint that wipes out the experiences
0:49:48 of an awful lot of particularly
0:49:50 marginalized groups and and we should
0:49:53 pay much more attention to them and I'm
0:49:55 delighted that they are Allison is
0:49:56 paying attention to them I also pay
0:49:58 attention to them and and spend time
0:49:59 have always researched amongst those
0:50:02 groups and they're just as spiritually
0:50:04 interesting and profound as you're
0:50:06 getting any monotheistic religion but
0:50:07 they of course have different views yes
0:50:10 I mean I think you said that there was
0:50:11 still a lot of stigma attached to
0:50:13 reporting of these views and it's often
0:50:15 found that people who say they don't
0:50:17 believe in anything at all
0:50:19 further questioning often do reveal they
0:50:22 have had some remarkable experiences
0:50:24 which don't fit in with that kind of
0:50:26 non-religious Paradigm so I'm not saying
0:50:28 it's free for all now there are the
0:50:30 people the pathologist the pathologize
0:50:33 Asian of these experiences as he calls
0:50:36 it is still evident the medical
0:50:37 profession psychiatric profession you
0:50:39 know they're explained away a psychosis
0:50:42 or hallucination or oh you're just
0:50:45 Disturbed and erotic and so there is
0:50:46 still that
0:50:47 um uh in mainstream Society there's
0:50:49 still this medicalization of it so
0:50:52 there's I still I I think you're right
0:50:55 watching it's still underreported it's
0:50:57 not like everyone's just saying it
0:50:58 openly but there's been an increase in
0:51:00 the mission of the mission that is
0:51:02 happening and that's significant but I
0:51:04 suspect it's still underappreciated as a
0:51:07 phenomenon um no there is a widespread
0:51:09 quasi-secularism in universities in
0:51:12 professions that you wouldn't you just
0:51:14 wouldn't say those things I was very
0:51:15 struck lots of examples in universities
0:51:17 but when the pandemic was on I was at
0:51:20 Lancaster University then and you know
0:51:22 the the university hierarchy put out an
0:51:24 official sort of um condolences to
0:51:27 people affected by bereavement in the
0:51:29 pandemic it was wholly secular it was
0:51:33 all about well you know we have a
0:51:35 memories and whatever and you think
0:51:36 actually a lot of people don't believe
0:51:38 that they do believe that there is some
0:51:40 continuing presence and afterlife and
0:51:42 yet it could not be spoken in a
0:51:44 university setting so there is a you're
0:51:46 right uh you reminded me there is still
0:51:48 a lot of um
0:51:49 it's a hard and that's again the kind of
0:51:51 monotheist grip even in secularism
0:51:54 yes that you're superstitious if you you
0:51:57 can either be a religious and believe in
0:51:58 God
0:51:59 or you can be secular and everything
0:52:00 else is just superstition
0:52:03 ideological intellectually this derives
0:52:05 from the Protestant uh um Reformation
0:52:07 that uh reacting against uh the Catholic
0:52:10 belief in you know angels and Saints you
0:52:12 know a very kind of vibrant Supernatural
0:52:14 relationship with all sorts of the
0:52:16 relics and so on and that's all that's
0:52:18 all now completely Superstition
0:52:21 um you know we don't believe in Saints
0:52:22 we don't believe in the dead appearing
0:52:23 and all this stuff and so all that was
0:52:25 kind of shut down for the Protestant
0:52:27 mentality historically
0:52:29 um
0:52:30 Islam what about Judaism it's a
0:52:33 monotheistic trait isn't it to say it's
0:52:35 all idolatry no no I've got actually I'm
0:52:38 just agreeing I'm saying that's a
0:52:39 Protestant trait because I'm disagreeing
0:52:42 okay the faster argument is in
0:52:45 Catholicism
0:52:46 um the spirituality there is anything
0:52:48 but shutting down of these you know the
0:52:50 Pedro Pedro Pio people go relics they go
0:52:52 on pilgrimages in England we have but
0:52:55 you're hard to say yes
0:52:57 in Catholicism
0:53:00 um Let me Give an example
0:53:02 um I was doing some interviews with
0:53:03 Catholics in Fleetwood
0:53:05 um which is in Lancashire you might know
0:53:08 hardly anyone goes to Fleetwood but it's
0:53:10 very interesting place and
0:53:12 um talking to a Catholic and she had
0:53:14 developed her own personal interior
0:53:18 um Stations of the Cross and and she
0:53:21 went round in her sort of in prayer life
0:53:23 you know and she went from uh you know
0:53:26 Padre Pio to Saint Jude to her deceased
0:53:31 grandmother who still speaks to her to
0:53:33 you know she had her own
0:53:34 can't stay on if you like yeah
0:53:38 um and I and I also interviewed a parish
0:53:40 priest and I and I told him without
0:53:42 mentioning anybody's names I've spoken
0:53:44 to you know a Catholic who who many
0:53:46 Catholics actually in practice have this
0:53:48 Rich he said no they don't
0:53:51 I said what do you mean they don't he
0:53:52 said no they I just knew what he was
0:53:54 going to say next they venerate the
0:53:57 Saints but they don't worship they knew
0:53:58 worship God
0:53:59 and I said yes I know that's the ideal I
0:54:02 know that's the doctrine but yeah
0:54:03 practice of course sent Anthony or Saint
0:54:06 Jude is just as important to no it's not
0:54:09 you know so the ideology the doctrine
0:54:11 still makes it that she couldn't have
0:54:14 told him that she couldn't have
0:54:16 been correct it yeah the difference
0:54:19 between practice yes and a physical
0:54:21 teaching in all every monotheism in
0:54:24 practice ends up with an enormous amount
0:54:26 of polytheism but the job of the
0:54:30 religious officials is to press it down
0:54:33 and get rid of it
0:54:35 that's the point and I think what you
0:54:37 say is very very helpful that is the
0:54:39 point because it's something Dale um
0:54:41 Allison mentioned in his book on
0:54:42 religious experience published just
0:54:43 recently that
0:54:45 um and he's an ordained Elder in the
0:54:47 Presbyterian Church USA by the way he's
0:54:49 no um you know he's a very common as a
0:54:52 priest or Minister um and he said you
0:54:54 know his experience a lot of religious
0:54:56 professionals
0:54:57 um you know priests and so on are quite
0:55:00 down on this phenomena that they they
0:55:02 don't expect them to say oh yes and my
0:55:04 prisoners I have these experiences yeah
0:55:06 it's part of this vibrant spiritual
0:55:07 reality and yeah we're I agree no that's
0:55:10 not enough but they're doing precisely
0:55:13 what you're saying but but that's the
0:55:15 point that they are not acknowledging it
0:55:17 they don't approve of it by the way
0:55:19 um but it doesn't mean it's not
0:55:20 happening though exactly right exactly
0:55:23 right oh no no no it doesn't mean it's
0:55:25 not happening it means he doesn't want
0:55:27 he's absolutely cut off from it and
0:55:28 doesn't want to acknowledge it argue but
0:55:30 arguably I'm not saying this individual
0:55:32 was wrong I have no idea but jealous is
0:55:35 suggesting that this is part of the the
0:55:36 the the the rejection or because these
0:55:39 people have been formed in seminaries
0:55:40 and institutions
0:55:42 which have been quite secularized and
0:55:44 influenced by materialist paradigms of
0:55:47 the universe and they don't really want
0:55:49 to embarrass themselves yeah we don't
0:55:51 really believe in this sort of stuff
0:55:52 that's another part as well exactly
0:55:54 exactly and that's not that's and again
0:55:56 there is this implicit racism and sexism
0:55:59 you know that's that's a that's for
0:56:01 silly people that's um women and
0:56:04 children and you know the Irish fortune
0:56:08 tellers and the gypsies there's a lot of
0:56:10 implicit Prejudice in that
0:56:12 um but you've brought us back
0:56:14 beautifully to
0:56:16 um
0:56:18 um my main point really which is that
0:56:20 you have to attend to the diversity of
0:56:22 how things are and not impose your
0:56:25 ideology on it whether it's secular or
0:56:28 nutrient or religious or monotheistic
0:56:30 it's disguising something more
0:56:32 interesting and modernity modern
0:56:35 societies that we live in
0:56:38 like to think they're pluralistic but
0:56:40 they're not modernity itself modernity
0:56:42 itself does not like to look at the
0:56:44 hidden Pockets that it doesn't want to
0:56:46 see and religion is still one of those
0:56:48 hidden Pockets
0:56:50 I'm so pleased you said this because
0:56:53 it's such this is a reality check you're
0:56:55 taking the red pill here you're thinking
0:56:56 not as they're supposed to be but the
0:56:59 reality is exactly I think it's such an
0:57:00 insightful Point sorry and that's why
0:57:03 people don't want Gina go back to our
0:57:04 discussion is Britain a Christian
0:57:06 country and why people don't want to
0:57:07 know the answer because the answer
0:57:09 doesn't fit people's governing
0:57:11 ideologies that's why people don't want
0:57:13 to know it
0:57:14 gosh that's such a profound thought okay
0:57:18 well I'm just going to sit here and
0:57:19 ponder that for the next hour but anyway
0:57:21 um well thank you very much uh indeed uh
0:57:24 Linda I mean uh Daryl are you working on
0:57:26 any um any projects or books that we
0:57:28 might look forward to
0:57:30 um in the future
0:57:33 well I just I just finished one actually
0:57:35 that's just come out I'll give it a plug
0:57:36 thank you called unknowing God that's my
0:57:39 first book of theology rather than
0:57:41 sociology I wrote it with a former
0:57:45 Catholic monk and the main the main it's
0:57:48 just a series of short Reflections very
0:57:50 personal Reflections on our spirituality
0:57:52 but
0:57:55 it's called unknown God because
0:57:58 it's about how bad ideas about God and
0:58:01 religion drive out
0:58:04 a living experience
0:58:06 a living spiritual experience
0:58:08 and I think that's been part of the tale
0:58:10 of actually of why the churches have
0:58:12 declined because people have experienced
0:58:14 you know have experienced a certain set
0:58:16 of things that doesn't seem like a
0:58:18 living God and isn't a living God
0:58:21 is there an illusion in the title there
0:58:23 to The Cloud of Unknowing this kind of
0:58:25 exactly exactly exactly you should say
0:58:28 that because I remember reading that
0:58:29 when um when I was um a Catholic uh in
0:58:32 uh in in a monastery of all places and
0:58:35 uh every day and just being totally
0:58:37 Blown Away by it this is kind of um so
0:58:39 that's why I thought hmm oh you're very
0:58:42 very very well read no it's a beautiful
0:58:44 wonderful medieval mystical
0:58:47 making the same point really that we get
0:58:49 trapped exactly trapped in our we seem
0:58:52 to somehow project the very worst things
0:58:55 about humans onto how I imagine God and
0:58:58 we get trapped in our views of what what
0:59:01 God is and we use them for our own power
0:59:03 plays the subtitle of the book is
0:59:04 towards a post-abusive theology
0:59:07 because religion is so often used to
0:59:09 abuse from abuse of power it was a
0:59:12 post-abusive theology that's a very
0:59:15 powerful subtitle gosh okay
0:59:19 is it published is it out it's published
0:59:21 it's published it's out yes okay I'll
0:59:24 link to it in the description below
0:59:26 um and it's got a lot about uh the the
0:59:29 the fairies and the angels and uh the
0:59:32 ghosts and uh what are we to make of
0:59:34 them and why don't we think that the
0:59:37 resurrected Jesus is a ghost I will
0:59:38 leave you with that question
0:59:40 what's the difference
0:59:42 okay you just open a huge can of worms
0:59:44 which normally I I jumped in with you
0:59:46 but I might not be the great time to
0:59:48 talk are you just so have you have you
0:59:51 read Dale Larson's recent book on
0:59:53 religion I haven't and I'm going to put
0:59:54 it on my Christmas reading list now I do
0:59:56 recommend it Linda I think you will find
0:59:58 it very much on your wavelength uh and
1:00:00 uh and and the video of course uh I wish
1:00:03 I spoke to him about is it just a matter
1:00:04 of days ago
1:00:05 um I will have a look is it up now
1:00:11 yes absolutely uh it's it's about a week
1:00:14 old I think
1:00:15 I've done very well I think it's not um
1:00:17 in terms of you and numbers but I I'm
1:00:19 not worried about that I'm I'm really
1:00:21 proud of the video I think uh because of
1:00:23 of what he said and is so important for
1:00:26 understanding of religion in the modern
1:00:27 world having an acronym from a very
1:00:30 eminent
1:00:31 um uh Professor from Princeton and um I
1:00:34 think fantastic even though it's not had
1:00:35 many views but I don't care
1:00:37 um but that's our link to that as well
1:00:39 then in the description below people
1:00:40 want to look at that so thank you very
1:00:43 much indeed uh Professor Linda would
1:00:45 head for your expertise it's been great
1:00:47 fun
1:00:48 um and very enriching and I I do hope a
1:00:51 lot of people uh uh listen to this or
1:00:53 listen to you uh read your book and and
1:00:56 just
1:00:58 really
1:01:00 understanding what's really going on in
1:01:02 the world of religions at the moment so
1:01:04 thank you very much indeed Linda
1:01:06 my pleasure
1:01:08 take care