ST#62: Divine Perfection - The Adamic Conundrum with Dr. Osman Latiff (2022-06-24) ​

0:00:06 assalamualaikum welcome to sapient
0:00:08 thoughts it's dr humanity from going
0:00:09 through my book divine perfection
0:00:11 christianity and islam on sin and
0:00:12 salvation published this year by
0:00:13 sapience institute we have of course
0:00:15 unpacked quite a bit already about
0:00:17 arguments presented by our christian
0:00:19 friends detractors william lane craig
0:00:22 and others before and after him who make
0:00:24 these arguments about islamic theism in
0:00:27 fact craig makes three primary arguments
0:00:30 about allah being not maximally
0:00:32 omniscient therefore making a mistake in
0:00:34 the trinity in the quranic outlook we've
0:00:37 been through that very very cohesively
0:00:40 and
0:00:40 and thoroughly now of course the second
0:00:43 argument perhaps is the most is the most
0:00:45 important of all the arguments that
0:00:46 craig makes
0:00:48 and in fact the biggest one between us
0:00:50 and our christian friends james langford
0:00:52 in his very seminal thesis about some
0:00:56 you know ideas about christian mission
0:00:57 to muslims says that muslims have no
0:01:01 doctrine of sin
0:01:02 that he says that there is no concept of
0:01:04 an estrangement between god and humanity
0:01:07 in islam and therefore there's no need
0:01:09 for reconciliation between god and man
0:01:11 therefore no need for a savior he's not
0:01:13 the first in fact to make that argument
0:01:14 see our marsh in his work says that you
0:01:17 know only and if ever the muslims see
0:01:20 themselves as inherently sinful in the
0:01:23 eyes of god will they ever see the need
0:01:25 for a savior now the the fundamental
0:01:28 thing here is that they're both arguing
0:01:29 similar things about does islam have a
0:01:32 concept of sin what is sin in islam does
0:01:35 sin create the sense of a distance or a
0:01:37 strange assumption between us and god
0:01:40 and is there a need at the end of the
0:01:41 day for a savior now craig of course
0:01:44 makes that same argument they all make
0:01:46 the same argument there is nothing new
0:01:48 it's all the same things that they're
0:01:50 saying
0:01:51 now craig's second argument that he
0:01:52 makes in his website reasonable faith
0:01:54 and his videos and in his debates is the
0:01:56 same one about the fact that the
0:01:59 doctrine of salvation what we call
0:02:01 soteriology in islam is not sufficient
0:02:04 in representing god's maximal holiness
0:02:07 whereas in christianity through that
0:02:10 price paid uh from jesus christ on the
0:02:13 cross that's enough enough and
0:02:15 sufficient for god's wrath to be
0:02:17 appeased and therefore god forgives
0:02:19 humanity and therefore god loves
0:02:21 humanity and so on and so forth now of
0:02:22 course in the last episode we went
0:02:24 through christian atonement theories and
0:02:26 as you remember herring there were many
0:02:28 many of them there was of course that
0:02:30 that primal one of of augustine and the
0:02:34 devil ransom theory christus victor
0:02:36 theory uranuses theories uh origins
0:02:39 theories there was the
0:02:40 uh athanasius's mystical theory there
0:02:43 was uh anselm's satisfaction theory the
0:02:46 one before that of gregory evnessa and
0:02:48 the fish hook theory the one much after
0:02:50 that of calvin and penal substitution
0:02:51 theory and all these theories were in
0:02:53 attempt by christian theologians some of
0:02:55 them church fathers to make sense of
0:02:58 what happened between god and humanity
0:03:01 humanity through jesus christ in the
0:03:03 whole cosmic order of things and the
0:03:05 fundamental position of adam us human
0:03:08 beings as his progeny in light of the
0:03:10 sacrificial model presented by jesus
0:03:13 christ as a way for sins our sins adam's
0:03:16 sins to be atoned for and therefore
0:03:18 god's anger to be appeased and for us
0:03:20 therefore to be forgiven those were
0:03:22 atonement theories and there are of
0:03:24 course some that are being developed and
0:03:26 evolving over time uh over the christian
0:03:30 centuries
0:03:31 uh now
0:03:32 how do we and how do we understand that
0:03:35 or appreciate that in light of the
0:03:37 quranic the islamic the prophetic
0:03:39 discourse about salvation if that's the
0:03:42 way that christians perceive of it how
0:03:43 do we perceive of it remember we said
0:03:45 initially that there is much that we
0:03:47 agree with with our christian friends
0:03:48 that we both believe in similar things
0:03:50 about adam about god about not from the
0:03:52 the particular tree uh to enjoy the
0:03:55 garden him and his wife we both believe
0:03:57 that we both believe in the devil the
0:03:59 devil of course has a plan and and we
0:04:01 all believe in that stuff but the
0:04:03 quranic outline is remarkably
0:04:06 different in fact uniquely different
0:04:09 than our christian friends
0:04:11 outline presented to them in the bible
0:04:13 or at least even not so much from the
0:04:15 bible but in fact in their theoretical
0:04:17 developments in their history and that's
0:04:19 a lot a lot to say about that
0:04:21 so what happens then how is it presented
0:04:23 in the quran what happens with adam in
0:04:25 the quran that is the subject of of this
0:04:28 series here now this is in light of what
0:04:30 i call what the book terms the adamic
0:04:32 conundrum now in the quran is presented
0:04:35 like this
0:04:36 allah of course had forewarned adam and
0:04:39 his wife not to eat from a particular
0:04:41 tree
0:04:42 and allah says
0:04:44 beware of the devil right in the fight
0:04:46 in the quran says
0:04:47 beware of the devil because he is your
0:04:49 enemy
0:04:51 so take him therefore as an enemy adam
0:04:53 was pre-warned we're also warned about
0:04:55 the devil in our lives as well remember
0:04:58 of course in the quranic paradigm human
0:05:00 beings all of us are weak frail prone to
0:05:04 sin
0:05:05 we're not perfect creatures we're
0:05:07 imperfect creatures that means we have a
0:05:09 capacity to do good
0:05:11 and capacity to do sin a beautiful
0:05:14 verses which is outlined in israel
0:05:16 in the quran in which allah says
0:05:21 foreign
0:05:25 beautiful verses what do they say they
0:05:28 say that
0:05:29 consider the self consider yourself
0:05:32 myself yourself
0:05:34 how it's formed
0:05:36 and how it could be inspired by
0:05:39 by depravity by moral depravities but
0:05:42 also inspired by
0:05:44 saintliness
0:05:45 by moral goodness by goodness by good
0:05:49 character right so human beings have
0:05:52 both potentials to do
0:05:54 wondrous dazzling acts of kindness of
0:05:57 mercy of sympathy of empathy of love all
0:06:00 of that but also evil acts hideous acts
0:06:03 reprehensible acts as well in fact the
0:06:06 world of course is a witness to both of
0:06:08 these currents and trends but then the
0:06:11 next verse says
0:06:13 successful is he that purifies it
0:06:16 meaning purifies himself
0:06:18 that that's the undertaking the task
0:06:20 that is set out to man from god
0:06:22 successful is the one that purifies
0:06:24 himself that works labors in that task
0:06:27 day and night all the time that's
0:06:29 success and that loss is the one that
0:06:31 buries it buries himself this allows
0:06:33 himself to reach heights of moral
0:06:36 goodness of moral character of excellent
0:06:38 beautiful behavior beautiful conduct
0:06:40 beautiful acts of worship and so on and
0:06:42 so forth so therefore we have both of
0:06:45 these strands as human beings and so
0:06:47 therefore uh adam therefore when he sins
0:06:51 against allah well the way it's
0:06:53 presented in the quran is not exactly
0:06:54 like that either so we know therefore
0:06:56 that the devil exists and the devil
0:06:59 goes to or we don't know in fact if it
0:07:01 was to eve or adam first except that
0:07:04 they're both blamed for that mistake
0:07:07 that they make
0:07:08 now of course in the quran allah calls
0:07:10 it many things allah calls it an act of
0:07:12 disobedience that's true allah calls
0:07:15 they were misled deceived by the devil
0:07:18 allah says there was a case of
0:07:20 forgetfulness from from adam
0:07:22 forgetfulness perhaps of many things
0:07:23 maybe he forgot therefore the great
0:07:25 undertaking that god gave him in the
0:07:27 first place he forgot his responsibility
0:07:29 between him and god he forgot the great
0:07:33 deceptive character and potential of the
0:07:36 devil he forgot
0:07:37 but in this verse in the in the second
0:07:40 chapter of the quran it's outlined
0:07:41 beautifully in that allah says that the
0:07:44 devil
0:07:47 allah says that the devil caused them
0:07:49 both to slip
0:07:51 the word used here is the word zel which
0:07:53 is stumble or slip now of course in the
0:07:56 book of genesis the bible is called the
0:07:58 fall
0:07:58 fall kind of connotes like something
0:08:01 that is irrecoverable i mean as you've
0:08:03 fallen now but a slip has different
0:08:05 connotations of while you're slipped and
0:08:07 you stumble but perhaps you're still
0:08:09 able to get back up on your feet that's
0:08:10 the first difference that you'll notice
0:08:12 in the quranic narrative
0:08:14 allah says that the shaitaan the devil
0:08:16 caused them both to
0:08:17 slip
0:08:18 and then they were removed from where
0:08:19 they were meaning in the garden they
0:08:21 were taken out from them placed
0:08:23 elsewhere
0:08:24 now that's the first thing now zell of
0:08:28 course has connotations it's like when
0:08:29 we believe that when we uh leave our
0:08:31 homes in the morning or whatever homes
0:08:33 we say a particular prayer that we say
0:08:36 allah
0:08:43 prophetic prayer that we recite oh allah
0:08:45 i seek refuge with you that i go astray
0:08:47 or leaders as a straight or that i slip
0:08:49 and stumble
0:08:50 right or cause others to slip and
0:08:51 stumble so we all in our lives can slip
0:08:55 and stumble we can lose sight of where
0:08:57 we're going sometimes in life that's a
0:08:59 reflection of our imperfect human
0:09:02 character and nature and of course god
0:09:04 creates us with perfect knowledge and
0:09:06 perfect wisdom that's a key fundamental
0:09:09 point for us to emphasize god creates us
0:09:11 with perfect knowledge and perfect
0:09:12 wisdom knowing of course this is who we
0:09:14 are this is our capacity our potential
0:09:17 and these are ways of course we could be
0:09:19 led astray but we have to be on our god
0:09:21 the quran says by the way in the quran
0:09:23 we have the word
0:09:26 which means deviation straying
0:09:29 misleading
0:09:30 repeated more than 200 times in the
0:09:32 quran
0:09:34 straying misleading deviating but we
0:09:36 also have the word wakaya wakka is where
0:09:39 we get the word taqwa from which means
0:09:40 protection which means safeguarding
0:09:43 repeated through and through the quran
0:09:45 as a way of pushing back offsetting the
0:09:48 dangers of dalala of deviation of
0:09:51 straying of of of misleading and going
0:09:54 astray and so the next verse now is is
0:09:57 very essential and key for us in showing
0:10:00 the difference between us
0:10:01 and the christian narrative which ends
0:10:03 up in a lot of confusion a lot of
0:10:05 ambiguity with all of these atonement
0:10:07 theories are proposed and still
0:10:08 developing and evolving and that is this
0:10:11 verse that allah quran says
0:10:18 what does it say it says therefore so
0:10:20 adam slept therefore was removed from
0:10:22 where he was and then allah says adam
0:10:25 was met with some words from his lord
0:10:28 what does it mean to be met with some
0:10:29 words from his lord what does it mean
0:10:31 adam was met with some words from his
0:10:33 lord it means that adam in this state of
0:10:37 vulnerability because of course he has
0:10:39 sinned and done something against god's
0:10:41 wishes is now stuck because he's there
0:10:43 by him so remember adam is there by
0:10:45 himself with his wife that says no other
0:10:46 prophets around to ask to seek help from
0:10:48 nothing that's just them too right but
0:10:50 there of course is allah there is god
0:10:52 and it's god that they beseech but not
0:10:54 just that they beseech god and ask of
0:10:56 god no that is not even the first thing
0:10:58 that happens
0:10:59 allah says adam was received words from
0:11:02 his lord that means
0:11:04 allah god the lord of the heavens and
0:11:07 the earth the most kind the most
0:11:08 merciful the maximally perfect
0:11:11 the most magnificent the most supreme
0:11:14 allah
0:11:15 taught adam words to say that means
0:11:18 allah inspired adam with words to say in
0:11:21 order for adam to know how to ask god
0:11:24 for forgiveness
0:11:26 it's something fundamentally beautiful
0:11:28 here
0:11:28 that is not so much adam then quickly
0:11:30 asked for forgiveness is that allah
0:11:33 aided adam enabled adam facilitated for
0:11:37 adam that path of seeking for seeking
0:11:40 forgiveness which is remarkable right
0:11:42 and so in adam being taught the words
0:11:45 and we know the words from another verse
0:11:47 in the quran when they both said
0:11:48 they both said
0:11:56 our lord our lord
0:11:59 we have wronged our souls
0:12:02 and if you don't forgive us and have
0:12:03 mercy on us we're going to be of the
0:12:05 losers so what's happening here number
0:12:07 one our lord
0:12:09 number two we've wronged ourselves
0:12:11 injustice on ourselves
0:12:13 number three
0:12:16 you forgive
0:12:17 you are the one that forgives number
0:12:19 four you show mercy and number five if
0:12:23 you do we're successful if you don't
0:12:25 wear losers all of that contained in
0:12:27 that beautiful prayer of adam and his
0:12:30 wife that was inspired upon them taught
0:12:32 to them instructed to them by god
0:12:34 himself enabling adam and all of us adam
0:12:38 is archetypal here all of us as his
0:12:40 progeny to remember the way back to god
0:12:43 whenever we slip and whenever we stumble
0:12:45 in life there is a model
0:12:47 paradigmatic model here for us to always
0:12:49 remember and realize that's how it
0:12:51 happened with adam our father where his
0:12:54 progeny that's how god deals with us
0:12:56 remember we ended the last chapter by by
0:12:58 mentioning the verse in the quran when
0:12:59 allah says
0:13:02 what is your impression
0:13:04 of the lord of the worlds how do we
0:13:06 perceive imagine
0:13:08 of god in light of all these tournament
0:13:11 theories and god
0:13:12 and the blood and the sacrifice and the
0:13:14 the wrath and the all of these things
0:13:17 and now how do we
0:13:18 perceive imagine of god
0:13:20 when we know that that's how god treats
0:13:22 and dealt with
0:13:24 the first of us the first of us our
0:13:26 father
0:13:27 adam when he stumbled he stumbled and he
0:13:30 slipped
0:13:32 in the garden there you know when the
0:13:33 devil when he was deceived by the devil
0:13:35 so therefore allah inspired adam with
0:13:37 the words to say but it doesn't end
0:13:39 there
0:13:40 it doesn't end there because then allah
0:13:42 says
0:13:43 now taba it means to lean towards to
0:13:47 relent towards
0:13:48 that means who's doing it all here it's
0:13:51 god doing it towards adam it is not adam
0:13:53 that is the first actor here it is god
0:13:56 enabling assisting adam when allah says
0:14:00 lean to him by showing him repentance by
0:14:03 showing you by accepting repentance
0:14:04 allah did that and allah is of repenting
0:14:08 and allah is merciful that is a
0:14:10 beautiful model here that we we can
0:14:12 clearly see in this adamic paradigm
0:14:15 right conundrum between us and
0:14:16 christians but really when the quran is
0:14:18 an adamic paradigm an archetype showing
0:14:21 illustrating for us the mercy the
0:14:23 closeness the love of god towards his
0:14:26 creation
0:14:27 even though adam made a mistake and
0:14:29 sinned here against god
0:14:31 or he made a mistake some they say it
0:14:33 was a mistake some they say it was act
0:14:35 of disobedience but in any case it was
0:14:37 something that was not what he wasn't
0:14:39 supposed to do but he did and so now
0:14:41 therefore there was a way out for him in
0:14:43 light of that
0:14:45 in light of that mistake or that sin
0:14:47 that he made now i want to show you one
0:14:49 more thing in light of this just so that
0:14:50 you realize this is not restricted to
0:14:53 adam this is not only about adam so we
0:14:56 have of course clarified a big thing
0:14:58 here in light of
0:15:00 salvation what it means from the islamic
0:15:02 perspective and the christian
0:15:03 perspective a big thing but just to show
0:15:06 you something really remarkable this is
0:15:07 not just about adam you might say
0:15:10 christians might say well that's unique
0:15:12 about adam but what else is there in the
0:15:14 quran what else is there in islam how do
0:15:16 we know that god doesn't deals with us
0:15:18 in the same way that with adam for
0:15:19 example let me show you one beautiful
0:15:21 example from the chapter called atoba in
0:15:23 the quran
0:15:25 this chapter which in fact is called
0:15:27 meaning remains repentance but here you
0:15:29 have a beautiful incident concerning
0:15:31 three individuals these individuals were
0:15:33 three people
0:15:34 who made excuses
0:15:36 for not participating in a very
0:15:38 important one called the battle of tabuk
0:15:39 in the life of the prophet sallallahu
0:15:41 alaihi allah please be upon him
0:15:43 they stayed behind and allah says that
0:15:45 you know
0:15:47 about the three who stayed behind
0:15:49 these three therefore they were wracked
0:15:51 with guilt
0:15:52 knowing of course that they've stayed
0:15:54 behind everybody else has gone there by
0:15:56 themselves now what to do they've made
0:15:58 this sin it's a sin this act of
0:16:00 disobedience against god and so allah
0:16:03 then says the three who remained behind
0:16:05 stayed behind held back
0:16:10 until the earth became squeezed and
0:16:13 tight and restricted
0:16:15 for them even though the earth is
0:16:17 spacious and wide
0:16:20 all right
0:16:20 how do you feel when you've sinned
0:16:23 against god that's how you're supposed
0:16:24 to feel you feel you know guilty you
0:16:27 feel as if the earth is closing in
0:16:29 around you you feel like what what are
0:16:31 you supposed to do you've done something
0:16:33 that is a terrible thing in the eyes of
0:16:35 god right and that's how they felt
0:16:38 and then allah says the earth therefore
0:16:40 it was as if the earth was squeezed and
0:16:42 restricted for them
0:16:45 and their own souls their own selves
0:16:48 were constricted and tight and
0:16:50 restricted and squeezed for them they
0:16:52 felt that sense of agitation
0:16:55 and distance and they felt that sense of
0:16:58 inner sense of remorse and then allah
0:17:00 says
0:17:01 and they realized
0:17:04 there is no refuge from god except to
0:17:07 god
0:17:08 there is no
0:17:09 escaping from god except going back to
0:17:12 god
0:17:13 no refuge except going back to god the
0:17:16 only
0:17:17 salvation they will find is with god
0:17:19 himself they can't run anywhere or find
0:17:22 help anywhere or seek assistance in
0:17:25 anything or anyone or anywhere except
0:17:27 with god himself
0:17:29 that's the quranic paradigm about human
0:17:32 salvation your only safety your only
0:17:34 security your only peace of mind peace
0:17:37 of heart
0:17:38 is in god himself there's nothing else
0:17:41 there's not in a stone or an idol or in
0:17:43 a or mary or in jesus or in anybody
0:17:46 except god himself that's the one that
0:17:48 you've transgressed against that's the
0:17:50 one you ask from now right and then
0:17:52 allah says after this allah says now
0:17:54 look at the comparison here similarity
0:17:56 with the with the adamic model paradigm
0:17:59 allah says
0:18:02 then allah turned to them so that they
0:18:04 tend to him
0:18:05 right then allah turned to them so that
0:18:07 they turned to him remember in adam's
0:18:09 case it was allah turned to him first
0:18:12 taught him first 25 so that he would
0:18:14 turn to allah the same thing exists here
0:18:17 then allah turned to them allah relented
0:18:19 to them
0:18:20 allah inclined to them so that they
0:18:22 turned to him in repentance and allah is
0:18:25 all forgiving allah is all merciful a
0:18:26 beautiful paradigm here illustrating for
0:18:29 us that concept of salvation in islam in
0:18:32 light of the adam the adamic conundrum
0:18:35 that we find you know going through from
0:18:38 the biblical narrative to through
0:18:40 centuries of christian theological
0:18:42 debate about what happened with adam and
0:18:45 his kind of cosmic significance between
0:18:47 himself and god and and us as humans as
0:18:49 his progeny and of jesus himself
0:18:53 there's a lot of clarity therefore in
0:18:54 the quranic in the quranic outlook may
0:18:57 allah bless you all