FULL DEBATE! Mohammed Hijab vs. David Wood | Tawheed vs. Trinity (2018-11-08) ​

0:00:17 Sam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa
0:00:19 barakaatuh before we start we're gonna
0:00:23 have quran recitation by Kharitonov for
0:00:28 a few minutes Salaam alaikum fertilizer
0:00:46 Ducato min ash-shaytani r-rajim
0:00:55 bismillahi rahmani raheem
0:01:03 Lada come on Athena in long order messy
0:01:10 Roberto mom I am a little messy we are
0:01:16 bunnies so long in Abu Dhabi what'll
0:01:23 Duncan in know who me
0:01:29 you shouldn't be loved you by the
0:01:34 Harlingen one wall-e mean I mean
0:01:47 so
0:01:49 look what a conformal Athena wanna know
0:01:56 that Sonny's don't sign I mean you need
0:02:05 he'd won
0:02:08 [Applause]
0:02:11 Oh
0:02:12 [Music]
0:03:03 [Music]
0:03:08 you're
0:03:13 bounnam you do kneel a mother
0:03:17 Nikola
0:03:21 one enough one long was similarly
0:03:30 bismillah you don't man you door hey
0:04:00 [Music]
0:04:03 film yukimura-kun - a local nursery
0:04:12 in
0:04:14 that'll hold up all day long
0:04:18 what does that mean Dooney he is a
0:04:30 [Music]
0:04:37 lapu-lapu now I am a symbol
0:04:50 [Music]
0:05:01 if so-called adjourn
0:05:13 Oh Kleenex limo silverfish in bismillah
0:05:57 Ilana let me a leader one immune under
0:06:02 warm you cool
0:06:08 salahuddin hamdullah Masato Alamelu
0:06:18 Sayed Nasrallah le haut Sophia's marine
0:06:20 your College Muslim Student Association
0:06:23 is very proud to present this event and
0:06:26 before we start this event we actually
0:06:28 want to thank our sponsors grassroots
0:06:30 Dawa
0:06:31 Muslims give him back and Salaam
0:06:34 initiatives so we have brother Muhammad
0:06:37 hijazi who's gonna give us one minute
0:06:39 speech before we start Salam alaikum
0:06:45 warahmatullahi wa arigatou hamdu lillah
0:06:49 wa salatu salam ala rasulillah while he
0:06:51 was off your man wallah your brother
0:06:53 mustafa Hejazi there's a clock here so
0:06:56 I'm basically here to represent the and
0:06:59 introduce the co-sponsors mainly we have
0:07:01 a grassroots that wa NYC muslims giving
0:07:04 back and salam so just to run through
0:07:09 each of them so grassroots Dawa NYC is
0:07:11 aid our organization more focus on
0:07:14 Street Dawa initiatives in the tri-state
0:07:17 area mainly New York City and so what we
0:07:21 do is we go out and we convey the call
0:07:23 and basically set up the dowel boots in
0:07:26 our New York areas and the popular areas
0:07:31 such as Union Square Park
0:07:32 Times Square different areas and the
0:07:35 Bronx and the Queens everywhere that you
0:07:37 could possibly think of in in the New
0:07:39 York boroughs and so this is a call to
0:07:41 invite each and every one of you to join
0:07:44 this initiative Allah so planet Allah
0:07:46 says in surah al-e-imran in chapter 3
0:07:49 verse 104 where Allah says
0:07:53 letter arrives to you a small group or a
0:07:55 nation that enjoins in good and forbids
0:07:57 evil and they are too successful and
0:08:01 Allah also tells us in chapter 3 verse
0:08:04 64 the same surah kulia haladki turtle o
0:08:07 allah Kalimantan so when in banana obey
0:08:09 now come and learn about Allah he says
0:08:12 all people at the scripture come to come
0:08:14 in terms between us and you that we
0:08:16 worship the one true God and not ascribe
0:08:19 any partners to him and so this is
0:08:22 highly relevant to today's debate this
0:08:25 is essentially a doubt initiative and
0:08:27 there are much more to come so please
0:08:30 join this to join the effort there's our
0:08:33 Facebook grassroots Dawa NYC for more
0:08:36 information ask for Muslims giving back
0:08:38 similar work Dawa but they also focus on
0:08:41 providing to the homeless and the needy
0:08:43 so if you're interested visit MGB MGB
0:08:47 inshaallah and finally salam is actually
0:08:50 the organization that muhammad a job and
0:08:52 a li de zhua work closely with in fact
0:08:55 they're the founders and initiators of
0:08:57 of that organization and so you can find
0:09:00 more information by going on their site
0:09:04 specifically i think it would be of
0:09:06 interest to look into their podcast
0:09:08 which deals with a lot of the polemics
0:09:10 and its conceptions in islam today and
0:09:15 so does a Camilo here and may Allah
0:09:16 support Allah make this a fruitful
0:09:19 evening
0:09:26 coming up next introducing himself is
0:09:29 brother brother Ali Dawa
0:09:36 [Music]
0:09:38 assalamualaikum warahmatullah better
0:09:40 care to before I start when I praise
0:09:43 Allah subhana WA Ta'ala the most
0:09:44 merciful the most just or praises glory
0:09:46 and gratitude belong to him for the
0:09:48 works that we do as you guys know from
0:09:51 the YouTube videos that we do for the
0:09:53 past couple years hamdulillah we've
0:09:55 reached a vast amount of people I'm
0:09:57 going to reach 52 million people every
0:10:00 month we reach 2 to 3 million people we
0:10:02 serve this organization not just me
0:10:04 myself a Mohammadi job we shouldn't just
0:10:05 get the credit we have our teachers
0:10:07 mohammad sheikh hamad of man and the
0:10:10 whole team may Allah bless every single
0:10:12 one of them salam stands for sharing
0:10:14 affection love and mercy at the times
0:10:16 that we live sadly a lots of people have
0:10:19 hijacked our religion and be the
0:10:22 extremist muslims don't need to mention
0:10:24 their name you guys know what I'm
0:10:25 talking about and B it's non-muslims who
0:10:28 lie about religion on a constant basis
0:10:30 so Islam is there to give the people a
0:10:32 pure understanding by deconstructing
0:10:34 false narratives and reconstructs in
0:10:37 pure of minds so people can understand
0:10:38 the true essence of Islam so that is
0:10:41 what Salam is about you can check out
0:10:42 our website Shalala you can check out
0:10:44 check out our youtube channel and that's
0:10:46 exactly what we're here to do and
0:10:47 today's debate is installed a star of
0:10:49 that and we thank every single one of
0:10:51 you guys who have come here today may
0:10:53 Allah bless you guys make to answer
0:10:54 Allah this called successful and that's
0:10:57 about me I'll grant you guys John Salam
0:10:58 alaikum warahmatullah better care to
0:11:03 thank you very much brother Ali Dawa so
0:11:06 before we start this event I want to
0:11:08 make sure to inform people why we are
0:11:10 hosting this event as your College
0:11:12 Muslim student at MSA we're something
0:11:14 that we're seeking to host a respectful
0:11:15 and friendly dialogue debate between two
0:11:17 Keating figures David Wood and Mohammed
0:11:19 had job both of these respected figures
0:11:21 have expertise in their core beliefs
0:11:23 that said the topic of the debate will
0:11:25 be Trinity or Tahiti
0:11:27 the debate will focus on the essence of
0:11:29 God from both Christian and Muslim
0:11:30 perspectives it will be as it will be an
0:11:33 educational discussion platform
0:11:35 expanding on core theological concepts
0:11:37 there will be significant references
0:11:39 exchanged both from the Quran and the
0:11:41 Bible
0:11:42 so before we start just
0:11:45 make sure that the audience has have
0:11:47 this clear we there are gonna be
0:11:50 multiple opinions in this in this debate
0:11:53 so I don't want anyone to feel offended
0:11:56 this is we're here to learn about each
0:11:58 other's perspective
0:12:00 if you feel easily offended please do
0:12:02 not react and at the same time if any of
0:12:05 the speakers make any make any statement
0:12:08 that you feel that is a very good
0:12:09 statement or feel that you agree with
0:12:11 clapping is sufficient we don't want any
0:12:13 verbal cheering or something like that
0:12:15 this is a very very educational debate
0:12:18 clapping is sufficient so without
0:12:20 further ado I would like to introduce my
0:12:22 co-moderator bir salim rahim so this is
0:12:33 how the format of the debate is gonna
0:12:34 start we're gonna have 20 minute opening
0:12:38 statements for each speaker then it's
0:12:40 there's gonna be 12 minute first
0:12:41 rebuttals and then eight minute second
0:12:44 rebuttals then crossfire examination
0:12:45 were where the speakers will be asking
0:12:47 each other questions each speaker will
0:12:49 have six questions to ask the other
0:12:51 speaker and it will take two minutes to
0:12:52 answer each of the questions then we're
0:12:54 gonna have five minute conclusions then
0:12:56 as you can see there are mics in at the
0:12:58 front where there's going to be a Q&A
0:13:00 session where you can ask where you can
0:13:02 ask our brothers the brother I'm at the
0:13:06 edge AB and David would any questions if
0:13:09 you have please keep everything
0:13:11 respectful if there's if there are any
0:13:13 any disrespectful remarks view you will
0:13:16 be escorted out so without further ado
0:13:18 introducing our first speaker dr. David
0:13:21 Wood
0:13:22 [Applause]
0:13:23 [Music]
0:13:24 [Applause]
0:13:28 so just a little background on dr. David
0:13:30 Wood he's a Christian evangelist and
0:13:32 preacher David Wood is a member of a
0:13:34 society of Christian philosophers the
0:13:36 Evangelic ol philosophical society and
0:13:39 the humor is a former atheist David
0:13:42 became a Christian after examining the
0:13:43 historical evidence of the resurrection
0:13:45 of Jesus he's a contributor to the books
0:13:47 evidence for God fifty arguments for
0:13:51 faith from the Bible history philosophy
0:13:53 and science defending the resurrection
0:13:55 and true reason Christian responses to
0:13:57 the challenge of atheism David has a PhD
0:14:00 in philosophy from Fordham University
0:14:03 and has been in more than 60 moderated
0:14:06 public debates with Muslim atheists and
0:14:08 other Christians and that's a little
0:14:10 background on our first key speaker dr.
0:14:12 David would and without further ado
0:14:14 introducing our his opposition brother
0:14:17 Mohammad hijab
0:14:18 [Music]
0:14:22 [Applause]
0:14:26 a little background on Muhammad a job
0:14:30 he's an academic researcher and media
0:14:31 host he is a debater and public speaker
0:14:34 who engaged in discussions and polemics
0:14:36 on wide variety of topics including
0:14:37 religion politics and society he
0:14:39 completed a politics degree and a
0:14:41 master's in history from Queensbury
0:14:43 University he has taught and instructed
0:14:44 courses on humanities and languages in
0:14:46 many contexts he has numerous Jazz's and
0:14:49 some Islamic Sciences and has studied in
0:14:52 multiple Islamic seminaries in including
0:14:54 the shinkichi Institute which employs a
0:14:56 traditional Meridian style of teaching
0:14:58 the sacred sciences mister Hadj AB is
0:15:00 currently doing further postgraduate
0:15:02 research in Islamic studies at the
0:15:03 School of Advanced Study University of
0:15:05 London so like I said just please keep
0:15:09 everything that I said in mind and I
0:15:12 think we will start with brother
0:15:15 Mohammed a job giving us his 20 minute
0:15:17 opening statement
0:15:20 [Applause]
0:15:20 [Music]
0:15:23 [Applause]
0:15:24 [Music]
0:15:25 you know the Quran tells us to Allah
0:15:29 Allah Kelly meetings over
0:15:30 when an hour become lnamidal Allah the
0:15:34 first thing we are asked to do and we're
0:15:35 engaging with Christian people is to
0:15:37 come to common terms that would worship
0:15:39 none but allah subhana wa ta'ala and
0:15:41 that's something we really need to think
0:15:42 about we need to think about the common
0:15:44 grounds that we have with christians
0:15:46 there's lots in common we believe in
0:15:49 jesus christ who believe in the Messiah
0:15:51 we believe in him we love the Messiah
0:15:54 who believe Jesus I believe that he was
0:15:56 born from the Virgin Mary there's a
0:15:59 whole chapter in the Quran dedicated to
0:16:00 that well of course the elephant in the
0:16:03 room or the difference of opinion is in
0:16:06 the fact that we as Muslims do not
0:16:09 believe that Jesus was divine or that
0:16:13 the Holy Spirit is divine today's
0:16:15 discussion ladies and gentlemen is about
0:16:17 our head and Trinity so hate is
0:16:22 monotheism
0:16:24 to believe and worship in one God the
0:16:27 Quran says put below I had the love
0:16:28 summit that say he is unlock one and
0:16:31 only the eternally besought of all the
0:16:33 sovereign the Trinity is defined by the
0:16:38 after nation Street in 500 AD after
0:16:40 nation Creed as one divine person that
0:16:44 one Divine Being divided into three
0:16:46 divine persons the Father the Son and
0:16:48 the Holy Spirit the father is God the
0:16:51 Son is God the Holy Spirit is God but
0:16:54 there are not three gods but one God it
0:16:57 goes the father is Almighty
0:16:59 the son is almighty and the Holy Spirit
0:17:02 is Almighty but there are not three or
0:17:03 Mighty's there's one Almighty this is
0:17:06 what the Athanasian Creed says now to be
0:17:09 honest with you I've heard David would
0:17:11 speak before and I've noticed that there
0:17:13 are three common fallacies that he falls
0:17:15 into quite often one of them is a
0:17:18 fallacy called the to call qui fallacy
0:17:20 which is an appeal to hypocracy another
0:17:23 one is a straw man and a third one is
0:17:25 the red herring these three fallacies
0:17:28 are employed by him quite often and he
0:17:33 talks about Islam extensively as you
0:17:34 guys may know in a negative way
0:17:37 Salaam Initiative has put up a database
0:17:40 of all of the major misconceptions
0:17:43 against Islam being answered and this
0:17:45 can be seen in the link below I also
0:17:48 want to give credit to one team member
0:17:53 who has made a website called many
0:17:55 prophets one message which can also be
0:17:58 seen in the link below you can see more
0:18:00 information about that now to come
0:18:02 straight into it the question now is
0:18:05 this the question is when we look at the
0:18:10 Old Testament do we find this idea of
0:18:15 the Nicean Trinity because the Nicean
0:18:17 Trinity is very specific
0:18:20 after the Constantinople Creed in 381
0:18:23 the idea that the Father the Son and the
0:18:26 Holy Spirit are three co-equal Co
0:18:29 eternal independent beings remember
0:18:32 those words Co
0:18:33 Coweta no independent persons of the one
0:18:38 being of God
0:18:39 this is the Nicene understanding of the
0:18:41 Trinity now having said that guys when
0:18:44 you look at the Old Testament do we see
0:18:47 this because when we look at the Old
0:18:49 Testament we find the Shama chapter 6
0:18:51 verse 4 Shama Israel at the right along
0:18:53 you know I've had here o Israel My Lord
0:18:57 our Lord is one load here when you look
0:19:01 at the first commandment chapter 20
0:19:03 verse 3 of Exodus you find there's no
0:19:05 God beside me I'm your Lord and is not
0:19:07 God beside me you find in Isaiah chapter
0:19:10 43 verse 11
0:19:11 once again the discussion of I'm you God
0:19:14 and besides me there is no Savior now
0:19:18 someone might argue about the word
0:19:20 eloheem and this is the weakness of the
0:19:22 argument it's a weak linguistic Cartman
0:19:25 who at him is a majestic plural they
0:19:27 would argue look there are nine thousand
0:19:33 pronouns in the Bible which relates to
0:19:35 God's name let's take for example
0:19:38 Genesis chapter 1 verse 1
0:19:41 Bereshit Maha siddhis Baha Elohim the
0:19:48 word Baja means he created whenever you
0:19:52 find a pronoun in the Old Testament
0:19:56 referring to you know him
0:19:58 you always find it in third person male
0:20:04 singular one more time
0:20:07 third-person male singular you don't
0:20:10 find a plural version of that you don't
0:20:13 find the a pronoun which is pluralized
0:20:15 so now the question would be is this a
0:20:18 Jew who is acquainted with the Torah
0:20:20 with the Old Testament why would one ask
0:20:23 him to realign his belief his
0:20:25 theological doctrines into believing in
0:20:27 a triune God
0:20:29 when in fact he's been instructed quite
0:20:33 explicitly in fact in the Old Testament
0:20:34 not to break the commandments you see it
0:20:41 gets a little bit more interesting even
0:20:42 when you look at the New Testament now
0:20:43 we're not the New Testament has
0:20:46 different Austen authors there's 27
0:20:47 books of the New Testament
0:20:48 you've got Paul who's written up from 7
0:20:51 to 13 books and there's dispute as to
0:20:53 exactly how much is written John written
0:20:56 many books who is John we don't know who
0:20:57 John is by the way we don't know who
0:20:59 John is but yes
0:21:01 Paul had a kind of exaltation
0:21:03 Christology there's no doubt he did
0:21:05 believe that Jesus was divine and a good
0:21:08 example of that is the second
0:21:10 Philippians for him but he believed in a
0:21:15 kind of supposed racialism how do we
0:21:16 know that because if you look at in line
0:21:18 9 to 11 it's quite explicit that God
0:21:22 gives him the name so he didn't have it
0:21:25 before Jesus did not have the name
0:21:27 before and he makes above all names so
0:21:30 that he believes in a kind of
0:21:31 subordination is now a subordination ISM
0:21:32 it's a hierarchy within the Trinity
0:21:34 remember we said and I see and Trinity
0:21:36 is three co-equal Co eternal persons of
0:21:40 the Godhead Paul didn't believe this he
0:21:43 believes in a hierarchy John believed in
0:21:46 an incarnation Christology in the
0:21:48 beginning was the word and the Word was
0:21:49 with God
0:21:50 everyone knows the prologue John chapter
0:21:52 1 yeah but the question is this who is
0:21:56 John his gospel was found some 95 ad
0:21:59 this is the time it was found in 95 AD
0:22:01 that's some 65 years after Jesus's
0:22:04 disappearance
0:22:05 the irony overall is that you'll find in
0:22:10 the Gospel of John
0:22:12 for example passages like John 17:3
0:22:18 where explicitly mentions that the
0:22:20 father is the only true God explicitly
0:22:23 mentions this and this was such a thorn
0:22:25 in the side of the church fathers that
0:22:29 Augustine a major church father who died
0:22:34 430 ad and who
0:22:36 who wrote an exegesis on John do you
0:22:40 know he said he rearranged the words of
0:22:43 John chapter 17 verse 3 he changed the
0:22:47 word order so as to make Jesus and the
0:22:50 father the true gods this is how severe
0:22:52 it was when you find mark chapter 12
0:22:56 verse 29 that you came to Jesus asking
0:23:03 how to be saved and what did Jesus say
0:23:05 did Jesus say and Mark by the way is the
0:23:07 most ancient manuscript of all of the
0:23:10 Gospels most ancient Gospels what did
0:23:15 Jesus say did he say you have to believe
0:23:18 in the Father the Son and the Holy
0:23:20 Spirit as co-equal Co eternal
0:23:21 independent beings he said no he said he
0:23:25 referred him to the Shema chapter 6
0:23:28 verse 4 of Deuteronomy that's what he
0:23:31 referred him to he didn't tell them
0:23:32 believe me as God or believe the Holy
0:23:34 Spirit is God or all these things know
0:23:37 so you see real entry that the question
0:23:40 is where do people Christians today
0:23:42 where do they get their information of
0:23:43 the Trinity you'll find that in Matthew
0:23:47 chapter 28 verse 19 it talks about it's
0:23:51 called the baptismal formula where the
0:23:53 father a son of the Holy Spirit is
0:23:54 mentioned going the way a baptizing the
0:23:56 way the Father the Son and the Holy
0:23:57 Spirit and so Christians use this as
0:24:01 just proof okay is in the Bible now the
0:24:04 users say look the Trinity is in the
0:24:07 Bible now but why don't they look at
0:24:09 Luke chapter 9 verse 26 because Luke
0:24:11 chapter 9 verse 26 has a different
0:24:13 triadic formula where there's the father
0:24:15 the son and the holy angels yes the holy
0:24:20 angels not the Holy Spirit so why don't
0:24:23 we infer a Trinity from this this is the
0:24:26 question now we've had these debates
0:24:30 before and they've been done before and
0:24:32 it's usually okay we'll get a vague
0:24:34 verse here and I'm vigorous verse here
0:24:35 and we'll start talking about these
0:24:36 things but here's an interesting
0:24:38 question now how did the earliest
0:24:43 generations of Christians interpret the
0:24:46 New Testament corpus you have church
0:24:50 fathers who are the most learned men of
0:24:53 Christendom people at Clement of Rome
0:24:58 Polycom origin people like those
0:25:03 individuals
0:25:04 none of those church fathers for the
0:25:07 first 300 years listen to what I'm
0:25:11 saying
0:25:11 none of those church fathers for the
0:25:15 first 300 years of churches dream in
0:25:19 third a nice C and Trinity from this can
0:25:24 you imagine
0:25:25 300 years 10 minutes Eve even Julian who
0:25:32 died 240 ad to Julian who dubbed or
0:25:35 coined the term Trinity us which was
0:25:38 later translated into Trinity he was a
0:25:41 subordination is he believed the
0:25:44 hierarchy within the different persons
0:25:48 of the Godhead the interesting point
0:25:52 here is you have someone like you have
0:25:56 someone like Hill operas he was taught
0:26:02 by Iranian massive church father Justin
0:26:06 Matta massive church father he taught
0:26:08 origin of Alexandria massive church
0:26:10 father and he writes in his book against
0:26:13 the heresies in chapter 22 what does he
0:26:15 write he talks about this group called
0:26:17 the Ebionites who were around around 70
0:26:21 AD forty years after the disappearance
0:26:25 of Jesus and they believed that Jesus
0:26:28 was not God that he was a prophet and
0:26:33 that he was the Messiah there were other
0:26:38 groups like the monarchy lists who
0:26:40 believed the non divinity of Jesus it
0:26:42 wasn't just the Ebionites someone our
0:26:44 kin is also believed that Jesus was not
0:26:46 divine in the way that Trinitarians make
0:26:48 out to be no one spoke about the Holy
0:26:52 Spirit
0:26:52 being God co-equal and coeternal and
0:26:55 independent with the father and the son
0:26:57 in the first 300 years that discussion
0:27:00 is completely gone so this is quite
0:27:06 interesting ladies and gentlemen you
0:27:07 know why because you could say from this
0:27:11 that we're the Islamic position of the
0:27:15 non divinity of Jesus and the non
0:27:17 divinity of the Holy Spirit was
0:27:21 represented in the early church then I
0:27:24 see in Trinitarian position was not who
0:27:27 I say that one more time he wants to
0:27:29 hear it okay where the Islamic position
0:27:35 of the non divinity of Jesus Christ was
0:27:41 present and the non divinity of the Holy
0:27:44 Spirit was present in early Christian
0:27:46 church history the Nicean Trinitarian
0:27:50 understanding of the post Constantinople
0:27:52 Creed was not proved me wrong David
0:27:56 prove me wrong give me one person for
0:28:00 the first 300 years of church history
0:28:02 that detail co-equal Co eternal
0:28:05 independent father son Holy Spirit gave
0:28:08 me silence me prove me wrong I want to
0:28:12 be proven wrong today I want to be
0:28:15 proven wrong to be silence me tell me
0:28:19 one church father for the first 300
0:28:20 years of church history that said the
0:28:22 Holy Spirit was co-equal Co eternal
0:28:24 independent with the father a son please
0:28:27 please give me the give me the records
0:28:29 is a historical investigation you just
0:28:31 give me one I will be quiet I will
0:28:32 apologize I will apologize in front of
0:28:35 everyone I will apologize in front of
0:28:38 everyone yes
0:28:40 now it gets a little bit more sticky
0:28:44 than that because if you look at a book
0:28:45 called the Christian doctrines early
0:28:48 Christian doctrines by J&D Kelly
0:28:49 conservative Christian scholar he
0:28:51 details exactly how this Trinitarian
0:28:53 nice internet Aryan thing came about if
0:28:56 you look at chapter 5 is a very
0:28:57 interesting read go and read it
0:28:58 it's
0:28:59 that you had for example Athanasius who
0:29:01 was a very ardent trinitarian around
0:29:03 Nicean times and then you have Hillary
0:29:06 up on tears they were advocating the
0:29:08 trinitarian position then you had the
0:29:09 capital she and fathers who are Greg
0:29:11 Greg revenues and Xia's gregory of nyssa
0:29:13 and mass of the grape and they battle
0:29:15 the so-called great they are the ones
0:29:17 who advanced the Trinitarian position
0:29:19 the question is who gave those guys the
0:29:21 authority to interpret texts like this
0:29:23 and to overrule all the things that came
0:29:26 before why
0:29:27 now the last thing I want to talk about
0:29:30 is the rationality of the Trinity
0:29:33 because this has to be mentioned now the
0:29:34 Trinity asked Thomas Jefferson mentioned
0:29:37 is an unintelligible is what he says an
0:29:41 unintelligible idea of platonic
0:29:43 mysticisms that three are one it's a
0:29:47 contradiction ladies and gentlemen that
0:29:49 you have fathers almighty son Almighty
0:29:52 Holy Spirit is Almighty
0:29:54 but they're not through all that is
0:29:55 about one Almighty that's a
0:29:58 contradiction that's why Randolph Road
0:30:00 Ross wrote in his book common sense
0:30:01 Christianity talking about the
0:30:03 hypostatic Union because none of Jesus
0:30:05 who's 100% man and 100% God tell me what
0:30:10 is a contradiction of that isn't it's
0:30:12 like saying X is a hundred percent a
0:30:14 square and 100 percent a circle Randolph
0:30:19 Ross II dismissed this is impossible I
0:30:21 can't believe this
0:30:22 he's a Christian now as is mentioned in
0:30:25 nine minutes left in the introduction in
0:30:27 the introduction he mentioned that David
0:30:30 Wood is part of the evangelical
0:30:31 Christian philosophical society his
0:30:33 Boston superior someone called Paul
0:30:34 Koplin
0:30:35 Paul Koplin wrote a whole thing talking
0:30:37 about because talking about social
0:30:39 determinism and basically he tries to
0:30:41 reason in the same way as Nabeel Qureshi
0:30:43 did in his previous debate by the way
0:30:44 with Shiva rally he says a look the way
0:30:46 it works is he said look I'm a being and
0:30:49 European yes I am Muhammad her job I'm a
0:30:53 being I'm a human being
0:30:54 David was a human being
0:30:56 but how is differentiated from you
0:30:59 that's what he said
0:31:01 how is differentiated from you this is
0:31:02 the idea that Paul Koplin
0:31:04 and William Lane Craig and these social
0:31:06 Trinitarians believe in that how it
0:31:08 differentiated from who that's not
0:31:11 correct that's false you know why
0:31:13 because you can only differentiate from
0:31:15 how from who when you have a
0:31:17 multiplicity of instantiations in any
0:31:19 given genus say that one more time when
0:31:21 you have a multiplicity of instantiation
0:31:23 in any given genus e in any given class
0:31:25 let me tell you I mean I can't
0:31:27 differentiate between me Muhammad you
0:31:29 God and David whoops unless the two of
0:31:33 us because if there was one human being
0:31:36 the how the rule would be that the what
0:31:39 said that all more time if there was one
0:31:41 human being the who would be the what
0:31:44 and the what would be the who there
0:31:45 would be no differentiation you have to
0:31:47 establish now and this is the third
0:31:48 thing I want to say how you can have a
0:31:51 differentiation from who and how without
0:31:54 having a multiplicity of instantiation
0:31:57 in any given genus which means you have
0:32:01 to admit first that there was more than
0:32:02 one God for you to differentiate between
0:32:04 them as persons and by the way this is
0:32:08 an unbiblical unscriptural thing the
0:32:10 differentiation between person and being
0:32:13 it's an unbiblical thing I would like to
0:32:16 see if it is in the Bible where it is in
0:32:18 the Bible so just to summarize what I've
0:32:21 said because I've only got three minutes
0:32:22 left these are the questions I want the
0:32:25 answers to today question one why is it
0:32:31 that in the Old Testament you do not
0:32:33 find the Trinity mentioned or inferred
0:32:36 and if it wasn't for why haven't the
0:32:40 rabbi's the Jewish scholars for 4,000
0:32:44 years of Hebrew history inferred it
0:32:46 that's question one question 2
0:32:49 how is it the case that if the Trinity
0:32:54 is explicit in the New Testament that
0:32:56 for 300 years of church history nice
0:33:00 unitarianism was not inferred by the
0:33:03 church fathers question three
0:33:07 well give me one person of the first 300
0:33:12 years that says that the Holy Spirit was
0:33:15 Co eternal co-equal independent with God
0:33:19 one name I will apologize in front of
0:33:22 everyone today yes I will apologize
0:33:26 question for how is it the case that
0:33:32 how can you rationalize this
0:33:35 contradiction of the Trinity when you
0:33:38 have a hypostatic Union someone who is
0:33:41 100% man and 100% God are you telling me
0:33:44 to believe in the squared circle today
0:33:46 sir is that the is that what you have
0:33:50 for me you want me to become a
0:33:53 Trinitarian square circle and then you
0:33:54 have another thing the Father is
0:33:57 Almighty
0:33:57 the son is Almighty in the Holy Spirit
0:33:58 Almighty the Quran refuses chapter 23
0:34:00 verse 91 now Alibaba whom Allah but if
0:34:04 this was the case they would have tried
0:34:05 to outstrip each other deal with the
0:34:07 Quranic argument you'd like to attack
0:34:09 the Quran you will see today that the
0:34:11 planet argument will suffocate you it
0:34:13 will suffocate you
0:34:15 [Applause]
0:34:23 number five one minute left
0:34:26 in fact I think four questions is a lot
0:34:31 for this man if you could do with four
0:34:33 I'll be grateful to him I want to say
0:34:36 one thing before I can't fight you might
0:34:39 be thinking why are you being quite firm
0:34:41 with this man today you know James white
0:34:44 he's a very respectable scholar of
0:34:45 Christianity and he's a good man yes he
0:34:49 is and he refuted this man because of
0:34:51 his mockery this man makes
0:34:53 mockumentaries against Muslims and he
0:34:56 refuted him on the basis of a verse in
0:34:57 the Bible first Peter chapter 3 verse 15
0:35:00 where it says be respectful and
0:35:02 honorable what is the point of causing
0:35:04 social Disko Asian what is the point of
0:35:07 attacking a people making a mockumentary
0:35:10 of Muslims drawing the Prophet playing
0:35:13 them in the thumbnail all those things
0:35:14 and you know it's going to offend the
0:35:16 Muslim community isn't that high time at
0:35:18 the age of isn't high time at the edge
0:35:21 of Islam of five seconds and racism that
0:35:23 we stopped this was salam aliekum wa
0:35:25 rahamtullah again
0:35:30 [Music]
0:35:33 [Applause]
0:35:35 thank you very much Mahadev for that
0:35:39 wonderful opening statement and not
0:35:41 without further ado we have dr. David
0:35:42 Wood with his first 20 minutes of
0:35:44 opening statement he'd jam this thing in
0:35:56 there alright I'll just leave it like
0:35:59 that can't overcome that strength all
0:36:03 right well good evening I'd like to
0:36:05 thank Mohammed had job for challenging
0:36:09 me to this debate and for crossing the
0:36:12 Atlantic Ocean so that we can share our
0:36:14 thoughts with you I'd also like to thank
0:36:16 grassroots Dawa and the Muslim Students
0:36:19 Association and all the other groups
0:36:21 that were involved in organizing and
0:36:25 planning and hosting my prediction is
0:36:29 that tonight will be what what young
0:36:32 people call epic see now what's the
0:36:37 difference between the Trinity and sowhy
0:36:42 well one is admittedly so utterly
0:36:47 confusing that people wonder how it can
0:36:49 possibly be true the other is the
0:36:53 Trinity yes you're going to find out
0:36:56 that I think that the doctrine of
0:36:59 tawheed which oddly enough we didn't
0:37:01 hear much about in Mohammed had jobs
0:37:04 opening statement I'm convinced that the
0:37:06 doctrine of tell he'd at least as it was
0:37:07 taught by Mohammed is vastly more
0:37:10 confusing than we hear about today so
0:37:14 let's compare them and we'll start with
0:37:16 the Trinity why do Christians believe in
0:37:19 the doctrine of the Trinity we believe
0:37:25 it because we are forced into this view
0:37:26 by the triune God not because of church
0:37:30 councils the church councils were forced
0:37:32 into that view by the triune God for
0:37:40 Christians
0:37:41 we have certain amount of data that we
0:37:44 work with everyone has some data right
0:37:46 we look around we see the world we see
0:37:47 that it's organized in certain ways we
0:37:49 know that there's a moral law there are
0:37:51 hundreds of millions of people in the
0:37:52 world today who believe that they have
0:37:53 witnessed miracles all of this helps us
0:37:56 formulate a concept of God but
0:37:59 Christians also have the Scriptures the
0:38:01 Old Testament and the New Testament and
0:38:03 when we start reading the scriptures
0:38:06 things get very interesting very quickly
0:38:09 so these are the first two verses of the
0:38:12 Bible long before Christians came along
0:38:13 in the beginning God created the heavens
0:38:16 and the earth and the earth was without
0:38:18 form and void and darkness was over the
0:38:21 face of the deep and the Spirit of God
0:38:24 was hovering over the face of the waters
0:38:28 so we've got God but then there's a
0:38:31 distinction it says and the Spirit of
0:38:32 God was hovering over the face of the
0:38:36 waters
0:38:37 later in the same chapter opening
0:38:40 chapter the Bible verse 26 we read then
0:38:43 God said let us make man in our image
0:38:48 after our likeness now two obvious
0:38:52 questions one who is he talking to
0:38:55 and two why does he say let us plural
0:38:58 make man plural I mean make man in our
0:39:01 Laurel image the plural of majesty right
0:39:06 well the Jews didn't use the plural of
0:39:08 majesty so why is he using this it's
0:39:12 just a mystery so far we don't know yet
0:39:15 but as we continue reading the mystery
0:39:18 gets deeper in Isaiah 9:6 the Prophet
0:39:22 delivers a prophecy for to us a child is
0:39:26 born to us a son is given and the
0:39:28 government shall be upon his shoulder
0:39:30 and his name shall be called wonderful
0:39:33 counselor mighty God father of eternity
0:39:37 Prince of Peace a child is born a son is
0:39:40 given and this child is said to be the
0:39:44 mighty God how's a child going to be the
0:39:46 mighty God in Isaiah chapter 48 verse 16
0:39:51 yahweh is speaking yahweh is the speaker
0:39:54 and he says draw near to me here this
0:39:57 from the beginning I have not spoken in
0:40:00 secret from the time it came to be I
0:40:02 have been there and now the Lord God has
0:40:06 sent me and his spirit yahuwah is
0:40:11 speaking and yahweh says that he has
0:40:13 been sent by yahweh along with the
0:40:15 spirit of yahweh how can god be sent by
0:40:19 god along with the Spirit of God well we
0:40:22 just don't know still later in the Old
0:40:25 Testament zachariah 12:10 Yahweh is
0:40:28 again speaking and he says I will pour
0:40:31 out on the house of David and the
0:40:33 inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of
0:40:35 grace and supplication they will look on
0:40:38 me the one they have pierced and they
0:40:40 will mourn for him as one mourns for an
0:40:43 only child and grieve bitterly for him
0:40:45 as one grieves for a firstborn son
0:40:47 Yahweh will pour out a spirit which
0:40:49 causes people to repent and they will
0:40:51 look on Yahweh whom they have pierced
0:40:53 and mourn for him as one grieves for a
0:40:56 lost son how can an immaterial God be
0:41:01 pierced unless he takes on the body so
0:41:05 the Old Testament concludes and leaves
0:41:07 us with a lot of questions about how to
0:41:10 reconcile the claim that there is only
0:41:11 one God with some intriguing hints at
0:41:15 plurality then Jesus comes along Jesus
0:41:21 tells his followers that he's the final
0:41:23 judge of all people even though the Old
0:41:25 Testament says that Yahweh is the final
0:41:28 judge of all people Jesus says that he's
0:41:33 the one who raises the dead at the
0:41:35 resurrection even though the Old
0:41:37 Testament says that Yahweh is the one
0:41:39 who raises the dead at the resurrection
0:41:41 Jesus calls himself the lord of the
0:41:45 Sabbath he claims to be the lord of the
0:41:47 Prophet David he claims to be the IAM of
0:41:50 the Exodus he claims to be greater than
0:41:53 God's temple Jesus tells us that he has
0:41:56 an absolutely unique relationship with
0:41:58 the Father that he can answer prayers
0:41:59 that he's present wherever his followers
0:42:01 are gathered that he is with his
0:42:03 followers forever and that he has all
0:42:06 authority
0:42:07 in heaven and on earth he even makes the
0:42:10 startling declaration that all things
0:42:13 that the father has are mine but Jesus
0:42:18 also prays to the Father and he claims
0:42:22 to be from the father why would Jesus
0:42:25 make claims that only God can make yet
0:42:28 also be drawing attention to God as the
0:42:32 father in John 14 through 16 Jesus says
0:42:36 that after he returns to the Father he
0:42:38 and the father will together send the
0:42:41 Holy Spirit the Spirit is sent and yet
0:42:45 as we've seen the Spirit was with the
0:42:48 father at creation Psalm 104 verse 30
0:42:52 says that the Spirit creates the
0:42:53 universe the Spirit is omniscient in
0:42:56 first Corinthians omnipresent in Psalm
0:42:59 139 and eternal in Hebrews 9 these are
0:43:04 divine attributes and the Spirit is
0:43:07 distinct from the father and the son
0:43:11 so what do we do with all of this well
0:43:14 if the father is God and the son is God
0:43:16 and the Spirit is God and the father is
0:43:19 not the son and the son is not the
0:43:21 spirit and the Spirit is not the father
0:43:24 and there's only one God the Trinity is
0:43:29 the only way out and that's why I said
0:43:31 that we were forced into this view by
0:43:33 the triune God himself now my Muslim
0:43:39 friends tell me that this concept of God
0:43:41 is absurd even though we got it from God
0:43:44 through the missions of the Son and the
0:43:46 Spirit my Muslim friends tell me that I
0:43:49 should reject this confusing concept of
0:43:52 God and believe in something much
0:43:54 simpler the Islamic concept of God but
0:43:57 I've been going through your sources for
0:43:59 a good little while now and I see some
0:44:03 serious problems with the doctrine of
0:44:05 Touhey let me give you a few examples
0:44:08 first Allah praise people ask Jesus is
0:44:13 God why does he pray I have to remind
0:44:17 them that we're Trinitarians makes
0:44:18 perfect sense for the son to speak to
0:44:20 the father
0:44:21 makes much less sense given the Islamic
0:44:24 concept of God for a lot to pray in
0:44:26 surah 33 verse 56 of the Quran we read
0:44:30 shortly Allah and his angels pray for
0:44:34 the Prophet o you who believe
0:44:36 pray for him and salute him with a
0:44:38 worthy salutation Allah and his angels
0:44:40 pray for the Prophet translators try to
0:44:45 hide this by translating it as Allah and
0:44:48 his angels send blessings or show mercy
0:44:51 or they praise Him the problem here is
0:44:54 that what it says Allah does is Salah
0:44:57 and you know what that means you know
0:45:00 there are perfectly good Arabic ways of
0:45:02 saying all of those other things every
0:45:05 Arab speaker in the world knows that
0:45:06 Salah means prayer and it says that
0:45:09 Allah does Salah so who is Allah praying
0:45:12 to second according to the Quran most of
0:45:19 Allah's parts will die the Quran and the
0:45:23 hadith refer to a las face his hands to
0:45:27 right hands in fact fingers waist Shin
0:45:30 feet and so on now there's a tendency to
0:45:33 interpret scriptural statements about
0:45:35 God's bodily parts figuratively if we
0:45:38 say God's eyes see everything no one
0:45:40 thinks we're saying that God has
0:45:42 eyeballs but there are most of the
0:45:45 Muslim scholars themselves are the ones
0:45:48 who are arguing that descriptions of a
0:45:51 laws face and hands and feet and so on
0:45:54 have to be interpreted literally not
0:45:57 simply anthropomorphic Allah 10 minutes
0:46:00 left so Allah has a literal face literal
0:46:03 hands and so on and yet we read in the
0:46:07 Quran Sura
0:46:08 28 verse 88 everything will perish
0:46:13 except a laws face which means if you
0:46:18 arts if you are taking these parts
0:46:20 literally and the only thing that
0:46:22 survives is a laws face then allows face
0:46:25 has different attributes from the rest
0:46:26 of his parts perishable versus
0:46:29 imperishable third the Quran
0:46:33 is an eternal person while Orthodox
0:46:39 Islamic theology insists that the Quran
0:46:42 is the uncreated speech of Allah and Co
0:46:45 eternal with Allah that would be
0:46:47 interesting enough we can't forget that
0:46:49 according to Muhammad the Quran is also
0:46:52 a person who intercedes for Muslims and
0:46:54 Sahih Muslim 1874 Muhammad says to his
0:46:57 companions recite the Quran for it will
0:47:00 come on the Day of Resurrection
0:47:02 interceding for its companions now how
0:47:06 can a book intercede for people
0:47:09 Muhammad explains in musnad ahmed and
0:47:11 Sunnah inhibin maha where he says the
0:47:14 quran will meet its companion on the day
0:47:17 of resurrection when his grave is open
0:47:19 for him in the form of a pale man the
0:47:23 Quran will say to him do you recognise
0:47:25 me he will say I do not recognise you it
0:47:27 will say I am your companion the Quran
0:47:29 who kept you thirsty on hot days and
0:47:31 kept you awake at night so the Quran
0:47:34 which is eternal and uncreated appears
0:47:36 as a pale man speaks to Muslims and then
0:47:38 speaks to Allah on their behalf again
0:47:41 this person this pale man is eternal
0:47:48 fourth the Quran isn't just personal
0:47:51 it's multi personal and I hear from
0:47:54 Muslims that that's impossible even
0:47:57 though the Quran is an eternal person
0:47:59 who appears as a pale man and intercedes
0:48:01 for Muslims there are actually multiple
0:48:03 persons within the one nature of the
0:48:05 Quran in Sunan Abu Dawood 1400 Muhammad
0:48:11 said there is a surah in the Quran which
0:48:13 consists of 30 verses is referring to
0:48:16 surah Elmo it will intercede for its
0:48:20 companion until he is forgiven so a
0:48:24 specific chapter of the Quran can appear
0:48:26 and intercede for those who read it but
0:48:30 Muhammad isn't done so he Muslim 1874 he
0:48:34 tells his followers to recite Surat
0:48:36 al-baqarah and sura al-imran because
0:48:38 these surahs will come as two flocks of
0:48:41 birds on the day of resurrection
0:48:44 on behalf of the Muslims who recited
0:48:47 them since Mohammed mentions three
0:48:51 different sorts of the Quran which have
0:48:54 their own distinct personalities their
0:48:55 own knowledge I think we can say that
0:48:58 all of the surahs of the Quran have
0:49:01 their own distinct personalities the
0:49:02 Quran Muslims read today is thus one in
0:49:05 essence as the word of Allah but a
0:49:08 hundred and fourteen in person the
0:49:11 personal chapters come as flocks of
0:49:13 birds pleading on behalf of Muslims I
0:49:16 see lots of Muslims smiling and laughing
0:49:17 at this is what your prophet said your
0:49:19 prophet I think it's funny too but I try
0:49:23 to I try to try to hide that a little
0:49:25 bit fifth the multi personal Quran has a
0:49:31 mother Christians claim that Jesus is
0:49:34 the Son of God the Quran responds sir 6
0:49:37 verse 101 how can a lot have a son when
0:49:39 he has no wife notice that the Quran
0:49:42 discern assumes that filial terms taught
0:49:44 terms referring to offspring have to be
0:49:47 interpreted in a biological sense well
0:49:50 if we can only understand these terms
0:49:52 biologically we have to ask about the
0:49:54 qur'an's mother
0:49:55 so our 13 verse 39 Allah blots out what
0:49:58 He wills and confirms what He wills and
0:50:00 with him is the mother of the book boom
0:50:03 al-kitab the Quran x' mother is in the
0:50:07 presence of allah i would normally be
0:50:09 happy with some metaphorical meaning of
0:50:12 something like that but it's the quran
0:50:14 itself which says that we have to
0:50:15 interpret claims about Jesus being the
0:50:17 Son of God biologically so if we have to
0:50:21 interpret these claims biologically then
0:50:23 I have to say if the Quran has a mommy
0:50:26 who's the daddy 6 Allah spirit who is
0:50:33 eternal and the co-creator of life is a
0:50:37 person according to Islamic theology
0:50:40 nothing that is a part of Allah or that
0:50:42 originates from within Allah is created
0:50:46 but the Quran says that Allah breathes
0:50:48 out his spirit
0:50:50 this means that like Allah is eternal
0:50:52 speech the spirit comes from within
0:50:54 Allah and is thus uncreated and it
0:50:57 Colonel Allah creates man insert of 15
0:51:01 by fashioning a body out of clay men
0:51:03 breathing a spear hydrants left the
0:51:05 Quran says that Allah strengthens Jesus
0:51:08 by the Spirit and that the that he
0:51:10 strengthens all true believers with the
0:51:12 spirit but the Spirit is a conscious
0:51:16 agents who can appear in the form of a
0:51:18 man the spirit appears to Mary and
0:51:20 speaks to her in surah 19 and then
0:51:22 breathes into her just as Allah breathed
0:51:24 into clay to create Adam so the Spirit
0:51:29 is an uncreated eternal co-creator who
0:51:32 is sent by Allah in the form of a man to
0:51:35 perform certain tasks and if he can
0:51:39 strengthen believers wherever they are
0:51:41 he would have to be omnipresent
0:51:45 and some divine attributes all over the
0:51:47 place here vii islam deifies Muhammad
0:51:53 when Muhammad would spit his companions
0:51:57 would rush to collect the spit and they
0:51:59 would rub it on their faces they would
0:52:04 struggle to save his used ablution water
0:52:07 if a hair fell off his head they would
0:52:09 rush to grab it after the Battle of hood
0:52:12 Muhammad's companions men named Malik
0:52:15 collected the blood that ran from
0:52:17 Muhammad's wound and drank it Muhammad
0:52:21 said the fire will never touch you this
0:52:25 isn't how you treat someone you regard
0:52:27 as a mere human being today however no
0:52:31 one can drink Muhammad's blood or rub
0:52:34 his saliva on their faces but Muslims
0:52:37 still address him directly in their
0:52:40 prayers most of the time when lessons
0:52:42 are praying they're reciting words that
0:52:44 are directed towards Allah well there's
0:52:47 a part of their daily prayers where they
0:52:48 say assalamu alayka by johann the BU now
0:52:53 that does not mean God please bless
0:52:57 Muhammad that is peace be upon you
0:53:02 Muhammad for speaking they're laughing
0:53:05 and they're speaking directly to
0:53:06 Muhammad in their daily prayers they're
0:53:08 talking directly to Muhammad in their
0:53:10 daily prayer this assumes that he can
0:53:12 hear them and so he hears them all over
0:53:14 the world in which case he must be
0:53:16 omnipresent interesting for a mere human
0:53:19 being viii Islam deifies Jesus without
0:53:26 even realizing it
0:53:27 Allah is uncreated and eternal but as
0:53:30 we've seen there are two uncreated and
0:53:32 eternal persons with Allah his word his
0:53:35 eternal speech and the spirit that he
0:53:36 breathes out and yet answer for verse
0:53:39 171 even when the Quran is asserting
0:53:41 that he's only a prophet it refers to
0:53:43 Jesus as a laws word and as a spirit
0:53:47 from Allah as if this weren't enough
0:53:50 Jesus goes on to create life in exactly
0:53:54 the same way Allah creates life a lot of
0:53:56 fashions of man out of clay and then
0:53:58 breathes his spirit into it what does
0:54:00 Jesus do he fashions a clay bird and
0:54:03 then breathes his spirit into it and
0:54:06 this gives life Jesus is co-creator no
0:54:10 wonder his followers started worshipping
0:54:12 him ix Islamic worship draws extensively
0:54:17 from the polytheism of 7th century
0:54:20 Arabia during the time of Muhammad the
0:54:24 polytheists of Arabia would perform
0:54:25 Tawaf walking circles around the Kaaba
0:54:28 why did they do that because they were
0:54:30 following Abraham no they believed in
0:54:34 seven planetary deities who circled the
0:54:36 earth and so they walked seven circles
0:54:39 around the Kaaba in order to honor these
0:54:41 seven planetary deities Muslims do the
0:54:43 same today but not realizing where the
0:54:45 practice came from there's also the
0:54:49 black stone this was one of the pagan
0:54:52 idols became part of Islam you kiss it
0:54:54 and it can be an expiation for your sins
0:54:57 but according to Muhammad the black
0:54:59 stone itself is conscious one minute
0:55:03 left
0:55:03 we read intermit II and Nibin Maha The
0:55:06 Messenger of Allah said concerning the
0:55:08 stone by Allah Allah
0:55:10 bring it forth on the day of
0:55:11 resurrection and will have two eyes with
0:55:14 which it will see and a tongue with
0:55:16 which it will speak and it will testify
0:55:17 in favor of those who touched it in
0:55:19 sincerity so this isn't a random
0:55:21 lifeless Idol this is a living breathing
0:55:25 Idol so in the Quran we've got a loss
0:55:32 wearing by literally everything we'll be
0:55:37 talking about that in a little in a few
0:55:38 moments given that we find these things
0:55:43 in the Muslim sources
0:55:46 I'm truly interested in how we can sit
0:55:49 here and poke fun at the doctrine of the
0:55:51 Trinity now the real basis I find for
0:55:56 reconciling these texts with the
0:55:59 doctrine of tell heed is that Muslim
0:56:01 scholars don't let you know this stuff
0:56:04 which is why you think it's funny when
0:56:05 you're hearing it
0:56:06 time is up dr. wood
0:56:13 now we're gonna start our second part
0:56:15 which is the the 12 minute rebuttal and
0:56:18 going first is mr. Mahatma hijab and you
0:56:20 can go ahead I think that would have
0:56:23 said some career-ending embarrassing
0:56:24 statements today I mean to be honest
0:56:26 with you
0:56:32 after 20 years of researching Islam you
0:56:35 come with this okay
0:56:37 let's deal with one one-by-one spirits
0:56:40 of God hovered over the hovered over
0:56:44 after the God created the heavens in the
0:56:46 earth
0:56:47 okay no problem it's that's meant to be
0:56:49 God no problem let's go to Zacharias in
0:56:53 Old Testament chapter 6 verse 5 there
0:56:55 are 4 spirits so are there seven gods
0:56:57 now because the word in Hebrew is Roja
0:57:00 and you wouldn't know about Hebrew
0:57:02 because look I I think not only do you
0:57:05 not know Arabic but you don't know
0:57:07 Hebrew and you're making a big mistake
0:57:08 by trying to interpret the biblical text
0:57:11 in this way there's two words for
0:57:13 spirits in Hebrew language the raw which
0:57:15 is the same as the Arabic in the WA the
0:57:16 word rock is here in Zechariah chapter
0:57:20 six verse five talking about four
0:57:22 spirits so tell us why if that is a
0:57:24 spirit and it's God then how comes
0:57:25 there's only three gods three persons of
0:57:27 God and and there isn't seven for
0:57:31 example he says that food that Jesus
0:57:36 this is called the etymology fallacy
0:57:38 that's you know he's been referred to in
0:57:40 manual etc God is with us
0:57:42 Elijah is also what Elijah in the in the
0:57:45 Hebrew language means God is with us so
0:57:48 if if that makes Jesus gods and the
0:57:50 larger is also a God we move on where
0:57:54 else did he say
0:57:54 I am statement if you look at the New
0:57:57 International Version of the Bible the I
0:58:00 am is actually not translated as I am
0:58:03 but I will be and there's a whole
0:58:05 discussion on that and to be honest with
0:58:07 you frankly I don't even take the Gospel
0:58:10 of John to be completely authoritative
0:58:12 and neither do the majority of biblical
0:58:14 scholars anyways 95 ad it's a long way
0:58:19 he says Allah says that Allah is on the
0:58:22 island Nabi and he's here saying that he
0:58:24 prays to the Prophet there's a
0:58:27 difference between you suddenly laho and
0:58:29 you saw the ILA
0:58:30 in the Arabic language I knew this was
0:58:32 going to happen
0:58:35 I knew I was going to have to give you a
0:58:39 free Arabic lesson here today I knew it
0:58:43 and that's why the translators put four
0:58:46 not to the profit you don't know what
0:58:50 the words in Arabic meaning daunting
0:58:51 here speak so solid this even come on
0:58:53 please don't immerse yourself
0:58:54 Allah has parts he says Muslim scholars
0:58:57 say we should take this literally which
0:58:59 wisdom scholars which was them scholars
0:59:03 he says kulla shay'in helical ilaha in
0:59:06 surah al-qasas chapter 20 of the quran
0:59:08 means everything is destroyed except for
0:59:09 his face and this means that allah all
0:59:11 his body parts will be destroyed he has
0:59:13 body parts and these things first of all
0:59:15 the word cool in arabic doesn't
0:59:16 necessarily mean all a sub hero book
0:59:18 alcool vomited on and he said and he
0:59:21 shows with examples that what cool
0:59:23 doesn't mean all I'll give an example in
0:59:24 chapter 46 of Quran so - aha - damn
0:59:27 Miroku Lucia in Vietnam behind fast bahu
0:59:30 that you are in lemma Sakina whom that
0:59:33 the wind destroyed everything cool - a
0:59:36 the same words here in pseudo-classes
0:59:38 everything was destroyed except for the
0:59:40 houses if it meant every single thing it
0:59:42 wouldn't have been there houses would
0:59:43 not be there
0:59:43 so what cool doesn't mean that an Arabic
0:59:45 language once again it's a problem with
0:59:47 language he says that this is exactly
0:59:51 his words he said the Quran is eternal
0:59:53 person tell me one scholar in the
0:59:55 history of Islam who said that this is a
0:59:56 lie
1:00:00 he says the Quran is a you have to it
1:00:05 will come as a Shaffir on the day of
1:00:06 judgement so if this is the question the
1:00:08 output Butterfree I'll help you yeah if
1:00:10 the Quran is an attribute of God how can
1:00:13 it intercede for you this is what he's
1:00:14 saying right it's a good question
1:00:16 this is a good question well it's not a
1:00:18 proper understanding of the hadith this
1:00:20 is the only good question you had I'll
1:00:21 give it to you it's the only good
1:00:23 question you have the hadith says EPCOT
1:00:26 al-quran so it's not the Quran ie the
1:00:30 attribute of a lot that will intercede
1:00:32 for you on the day of judgment but it is
1:00:33 your Kira of the Quran and the Sarah you
1:00:36 gave the Quran which means the reward
1:00:37 you get from the recitation of the Quran
1:00:39 not the Quran as an attribute of Allah
1:00:45 he says their form is 114 passes of the
1:00:48 Quran - Koko a fallacy - Koko a fallacy
1:00:51 I told you do it and appeal to hypocracy
1:00:53 so hey are you admitting that having
1:00:55 more than one person or the being of God
1:00:57 is wrong because you should lead
1:00:59 trinitarianism then well obviously as we
1:01:02 know there's no one in the history of
1:01:03 Islam that referred to the surah of the
1:01:05 Quran as persons this is wrong you don't
1:01:07 know about Islam here you're being
1:01:08 educated he said well I'm tech would
1:01:11 level sake but he didn't know the Arabic
1:01:13 but I'm going to give him the Arabic in
1:01:14 chapter 6 verse hundred eight of the
1:01:16 Quran where Allah says that Allah does
1:01:18 not have a mate so does this mean what
1:01:21 does this mean that biological they had
1:01:24 the discussion of apology really and
1:01:25 truly how can you have a begotten son
1:01:27 there's only three options number one
1:01:29 biology number two
1:01:30 adoption and number three metaphor and
1:01:33 if you say it's not biology and it's not
1:01:35 adoption it must be a metaphor so Jesus
1:01:36 is not a son of God okay and then he
1:01:45 says that the prophets they play no they
1:01:47 tried to get his hair and the spit and
1:01:49 these things okay well if you think
1:01:51 spearing once someone makes you a god
1:01:53 well that's what he implies then I
1:01:55 wonder why you look at every other verse
1:01:57 of the Bible as implying that Jesus was
1:01:59 God because for you as spit that's
1:02:04 that's making me a god now I mean
1:02:09 don't embarrass yourself in front of me
1:02:13 assalamu alayka is that this means that
1:02:15 he's interceding because it's a
1:02:17 narrative voice assalamu alayka we say
1:02:20 this in the shout every time it's a
1:02:22 narrative voice however let's not say
1:02:24 it's a narrative voice let's give it to
1:02:25 him he says this must mean that the
1:02:27 Prophet Muhammad is omnipresent yes he's
1:02:30 omnipresent let's let's have fun with
1:02:32 him today there is a hadith in Bukhari
1:02:34 which says that whenever one person does
1:02:36 Salah on the Nabi which means blessings
1:02:39 and praise on the Prophet blessings on
1:02:42 the Prophet the angel will carry that
1:02:44 and give it to him
1:02:45 it doesn't mean that he's hearing it
1:02:47 everywhere the angel is moving around
1:02:49 this is from the will of Allah and if
1:02:52 you didn't know that now you do he says
1:02:57 that kalamullah
1:02:59 the eyes have been referred to as the
1:03:01 word of Allah must mean that he is
1:03:03 divine
1:03:03 so although the Quran says clearly that
1:03:05 he's not divine no it makes a mistake he
1:03:07 is divine why you're all over the place
1:03:10 you're fumbling all over the place it's
1:03:11 embarrassing Karim Allah is is defined
1:03:14 in chapter 3 verse 58 of the Quran
1:03:16 well Allah subhana WA Ta'ala says in the
1:03:18 methylase and the lie and the like a
1:03:20 method leeadams ha ha ha woman robbing
1:03:22 from mcaren fire kun five minutes left
1:03:27 he said to him be and he was the world
1:03:29 is defined in the Quran as B so Allah
1:03:32 says B and things are just like he said
1:03:33 being with Adam he said be with Jesus
1:03:35 and he was he says that there are seven
1:03:39 planetary things in Arabia and these
1:03:41 things I mean how can you make a
1:03:43 judgement first of all I haven't got
1:03:46 reference for that I didn't see a rough
1:03:47 he didn't say yes I give you a reference
1:03:49 here it says Bukhari whatever even if
1:03:51 he's got a reference how do you know
1:03:52 that the practice originated from that
1:03:54 and not from Abraham after all Abraham
1:03:56 even in the Old Testament yes he existed
1:04:00 pre existed before Jesus even though you
1:04:03 have a yeah you know the physical Jesus
1:04:05 and he was there in the desert and you
1:04:07 have in the book of psalms mention of
1:04:08 pilgrimage so if this is the case then I
1:04:12 wonder why this is mentioned now this is
1:04:14 I think this all that he kind of
1:04:16 mentioned I want to give you one
1:04:18 principle ladies and gentlemen that will
1:04:20 destroy everything he said
1:04:21 chapter 42 verse 11 laser chemistry
1:04:24 shell horse Samuel massive that there's
1:04:25 nothing like him you cannot do to speak
1:04:28 or tamseel' of Allah anything that we
1:04:32 see in the Quran talking about the hand
1:04:34 talking about the face all of these
1:04:36 things you can rest assured because of
1:04:39 this verse and the other verse well a
1:04:40 miracle out before now had that this
1:04:42 means yes
1:04:43 this means it cannot be compared to
1:04:46 anything you imagine that was very cool
1:04:48 observe over you little observe in the
1:04:51 Quran anyways me I mean every Muslim
1:04:53 knows this but the idea is is as
1:04:55 implicit admission here that I've lost
1:04:57 this is this is where I come up with
1:04:59 I've lost yes we know trinitarianism so
1:05:02 confusing but I'm going to show you how
1:05:03 much you know tell hate is confusing as
1:05:05 well I have admitted defeat therefore
1:05:08 I'm going down I'm going down and we'll
1:05:09 try and take you down with me that's
1:05:11 that's really what you're trying to say
1:05:12 to me David would I know but the look of
1:05:15 your face in you probably agree with me
1:05:16 let's be honest look at his face
1:05:17 everyone ladies and gentlemen take a
1:05:20 look at his place yes anyways I've got a
1:05:23 few minutes left let me recite some
1:05:24 Quran because I've done with this guy
1:05:25 allah subhanaw taala he says in Chapter
1:05:29 number 19 verse number 31 about Jesus is
1:05:33 what we believe about Jesus all in Nina
1:05:42 Rajani Mubarak and also nice Allah she
1:05:49 was like him doom - hi what we are wrong
1:05:53 being really dirty
1:05:57 chipiya mozzarella - una muchacha hi
1:06:05 the lake is of annamaria : Hawking a TV
1:06:10 him turn
1:06:14 Oh little happy if he and
1:06:22 McConnell a toffee dong-su bhajana
1:06:31 so vahana who either
1:06:35 for in
1:06:37 Paula Hawkins a when Allah Arabic
1:06:43 become Fargodome
1:06:49 see welcome
1:06:52 team laughing hey do me now being the
1:07:03 ice hazard jesus according this is guys
1:07:05 Christians this is what Allah says in
1:07:10 the Quran listen to it tell me if this
1:07:11 is not a better model for you be honest
1:07:13 this is Jesus he says I am the slave of
1:07:17 Allah of God he gave me the book and he
1:07:20 made me a prophet
1:07:21 just like in chapter 8 mark mark verse
1:07:25 one minute left
1:07:26 yes 48 people thought Jesus was a
1:07:29 prophet in the Old Testament the New
1:07:32 Testament time in the time of Jesus when
1:07:33 he was alive Jelani Mubarak an enema
1:07:37 contain he made me blessed wherever I am
1:07:39 this is what we believe of Jesus he made
1:07:42 me blessed wherever I am you know
1:07:45 well Sonny we saw that he was ducati
1:07:47 madam to higher and he told me to pray
1:07:49 and to give charity so long as I am
1:07:51 Alive you know this is what we believe
1:07:55 about Jesus Christ
1:07:56 what about Ron be really dirty I was
1:07:58 good with my mother well I'm a
1:08:00 jabberin Jackie I wasn't that arrogant
1:08:01 person
1:08:02 well salam ala yeah you're more willing
1:08:03 to and peace be upon me the day I was
1:08:06 born and the day I die and the day I
1:08:08 will come back to life that is Jesus son
1:08:11 of Mary the one who you didn't suck out
1:08:13 his welcome allahu khairan
1:08:24 before we start on dr. David woods
1:08:27 rebuttal I'd just like to remind fellow
1:08:30 audience verbal cheering is please
1:08:33 please refrain from verbal cheering
1:08:35 clapping is sufficient enough and we
1:08:37 just like to remind both speakers to
1:08:39 stay on topic and be respectful towards
1:08:40 the other speaker thank you and dr.
1:08:42 David what do you have the floor thank
1:08:55 you again Mohammad in my opening
1:08:58 statement I laid out a basic case for
1:09:02 the doctrine of the Trinity and I
1:09:04 claimed that the Islamic concept of God
1:09:06 is a more confusing than what we're
1:09:10 normally told I pointed out that Allah
1:09:14 prays and he said well there's a
1:09:16 difference in the meaning of the verb
1:09:17 here well the Quran says repeatedly that
1:09:20 Allah prays and guess what he prays in
1:09:25 the Hadees as well and what's
1:09:27 interesting is there are even Muslim
1:09:29 translators who are acknowledging this
1:09:30 and translating these passages as Allah
1:09:34 prays so I ship you Lee I've got a ton
1:09:37 of them Islamic books translated by her
1:09:40 respected around the world from riyad
1:09:44 salihin The Messenger of Allah said
1:09:48 Allah and His angels and the people of
1:09:51 the heavens and the earth even the ants
1:09:53 in their rocks and the fish pray for
1:09:56 blessings on those who teach people good
1:10:01 so Allah prays who's he praying to Allah
1:10:07 hadith alkyd SIA translated again by a
1:10:10 Muslim translator hadith number 216 the
1:10:14 Israelites said to Moosa does your Lord
1:10:16 pray moosa said fear allah o sons of
1:10:21 israel Allah said o Moosa what did your
1:10:24 people say will so said o my lord
1:10:27 you already know they said does your
1:10:29 Lord pray Allah said tell them
1:10:32 prayer for my servants is that my mercy
1:10:35 should precede my anger if it were not
1:10:39 so I would have destroyed them Allah
1:10:42 prays that his mercy will triumph over
1:10:45 his wrath
1:10:47 now if Allah is praying what he's
1:10:49 praying for self-control here apparently
1:10:50 right he wants to punish them but he
1:10:52 prays for self-control this is not me
1:10:56 this is these are your hadith and your
1:10:57 translators translating these passages
1:10:59 as Allah praying why because that's what
1:11:03 Salah means if I'm wrong give me give me
1:11:08 the linguistic basis for for saying
1:11:09 otherwise second I said that Allah has
1:11:13 various parts but only his face is
1:11:16 imperishable which means that different
1:11:18 parts of law have different attributes
1:11:20 that's just what it says it says
1:11:23 everything will perish except his face
1:11:27 so if you're interpreting the parts as
1:11:30 literal parts we've just got a problem
1:11:33 here right it gives the qualification
1:11:35 and saying everything will perish and I
1:11:37 understand it can say you know
1:11:38 everything this or everything that it's
1:11:39 saying that everything perishes except
1:11:41 his face it's drawing the only the only
1:11:43 exception there which would mean that
1:11:46 certain parts are parts with different
1:11:50 attributes unless Allah is just not
1:11:53 clear in his Quran which he claims to be
1:11:55 clear over and over again third I said
1:11:59 that the Quran is an eternal person
1:12:01 these Allah is eternal word but he also
1:12:04 takes the form of a pale man now it's
1:12:07 kind of hard to hear because over there
1:12:09 but I think Muhammad replied that it's
1:12:12 your own recitation that appears to you
1:12:14 now that's interesting enough if your
1:12:16 own recitation of the Quran is appearing
1:12:18 as a pale man but I don't think that's
1:12:23 what it means because of the next point
1:12:25 which is that individual chapters of the
1:12:27 Quran appear as flocks of birds to
1:12:30 intercede for you so if individual
1:12:32 chapters of the Quran are appearing and
1:12:35 pleading for you then why wouldn't the
1:12:40 entire Quran as a whole also be
1:12:41 appearing to you so it seems that it's
1:12:43 not just talking about your own
1:12:44 good recitation or something like that
1:12:46 but the book itself he says I am the
1:12:49 Quran now by the way this is a very
1:12:54 interesting and I think it might be a
1:12:56 source of problem here Mohammed says
1:13:02 well who refers to these Quran chapters
1:13:04 as persons and I think there's a little
1:13:07 difficulty here this might be why he's
1:13:08 having trouble understanding the doctor
1:13:11 of the Trinity if he's if he's
1:13:12 misunderstanding this word person here
1:13:14 and and and how its applied if a flock
1:13:19 of birds can talk and has knowledge and
1:13:24 this flock of birds knows what you've
1:13:27 been doing they know that you've been
1:13:29 reciting the Quran they intercede for
1:13:32 you they plead to Allah on your behalf
1:13:35 well those are qualities of what we call
1:13:39 a person in philosophy right it's
1:13:41 communicating like that it has it has
1:13:43 certain kinds of knowledge it it appeals
1:13:46 to people in certain way this is what we
1:13:48 mean by the term person and by the way
1:13:51 because we're talking about origins of
1:13:54 Islamic practices if you go to the early
1:13:58 Islamic history there were goddesses
1:14:01 there were many people in Arabia who
1:14:03 believed in you know in a kind of
1:14:08 hierarchy right where they believed in
1:14:10 Allah and they believed that Allah was
1:14:11 the main deity but they believed in
1:14:13 lower deities and these were
1:14:15 intercessors now a lot of loose and
1:14:17 manat were three goddesses and they were
1:14:20 called the exalted cranes they were the
1:14:23 birds that would carry your prayers to
1:14:25 Allah or they would fly up to Allah and
1:14:27 intercede for you and why is this
1:14:29 interesting well the goddesses are
1:14:31 described in terms of birds who go and
1:14:33 intercede for you
1:14:35 but Muhammad after introducing Coheed
1:14:38 says that it's actually chapters of the
1:14:41 Quran that do that for you now they
1:14:43 appear as flocks of birds to go up to
1:14:46 Allah and intercede for you now if I ask
1:14:50 any Muslim in here hey if someone
1:14:52 believes that there's God and then there
1:14:54 are these other beings who intercede and
1:14:57 fly up to them and
1:14:58 and intercede for you and plead for you
1:15:00 is that polytheism monotheism every
1:15:02 Muslim would say that's polytheism okay
1:15:05 well if there are these flocks of birds
1:15:07 around and they are the eternal speech
1:15:10 of Allah and they fly up and intercede
1:15:13 for you and they plead on your behalf
1:15:15 what is that it's pure monotheism that
1:15:19 is very interesting he says no one
1:15:23 refers to the Quran as a person or
1:15:26 chapters the Quran as a person again if
1:15:29 you understand how we use the term that
1:15:31 should end the confusion as for the
1:15:35 Quran having a mother will melt Kitab
1:15:38 yeah
1:15:40 you pointed out that well if you're if
1:15:42 you're saying it's not literally
1:15:45 biological then you must be saying it's
1:15:48 merely metaphorical and no not in the
1:15:51 Jewish or Christian scriptures son of is
1:15:55 used in a variety of ways and so the
1:15:58 appropriate minutes left the appropriate
1:16:01 response to Christian theology would be
1:16:04 explained to you explain to us what
1:16:06 Jesus sonship means and that would be
1:16:08 explained in terms of the doctrine of
1:16:11 the Trinity but no Christian has ever
1:16:13 meant that Jesus is the biological son
1:16:18 of the Father so if Allah is telling
1:16:21 Muslims in the Quran and I bring this up
1:16:23 because I hear this from Muslims almost
1:16:25 every day well how can you believe that
1:16:26 God had sex with Mary well I never heard
1:16:29 of a Christian believing that where are
1:16:31 you getting that idea from getting it
1:16:33 from the Quran from Allah so the point
1:16:35 here is if Allah knows what the
1:16:39 Christian doctrine is why doesn't Allah
1:16:42 say what the Christian doctrine is and
1:16:44 then explain why it's wrong he just
1:16:47 never does Allah tries to refute the
1:16:49 Trinity doesn't know what the doctor and
1:16:51 the Trinity is he thinks it's it's Allah
1:16:53 Jesus and Mary were three separate
1:16:55 beings who just work together that's not
1:16:57 the doctrine of the Trinity what's he
1:16:59 responding to likewise with the sonship
1:17:01 of Jesus he gets it all wrong so you've
1:17:05 got a problem here either your God
1:17:06 doesn't know what we believe in which
1:17:09 case he lacks knowledge or
1:17:11 does know what we believe and he's
1:17:13 deliberately making fun of it or
1:17:15 misrepresenting it if he's deliberately
1:17:18 misrepresenting it then that would be an
1:17:20 ethical problem six I said that a laws
1:17:24 spirit is an eternal person who takes
1:17:27 the form of a man to carry out tasks
1:17:30 again having trouble hearing down there
1:17:33 if there was a response to that please
1:17:34 remind me seventh I said that it's LOM
1:17:37 deifies Mohammed said well you know
1:17:40 Mohammed spitting and stuff doesn't that
1:17:42 what's that got to do with him being God
1:17:43 that's not that's not the point
1:17:44 the point was Mohammed's just a man the
1:17:47 Mohammed's just a man Mohammed's just a
1:17:48 man and then you see how his followers
1:17:51 acted towards him and it's clear he was
1:17:55 much more than a man Tim when a normal
1:17:57 human being is walking down the street
1:17:59 and spits you don't say oh I have to rub
1:18:01 this all over my body Muhammad's
1:18:02 companions did if a hair falls off a
1:18:05 normal human beings head you don't say
1:18:06 ooh I need to grab this I need to save
1:18:09 this if someone is bleeding a normal
1:18:12 human being is bleeding you don't say
1:18:13 hey let me get that running blood and
1:18:15 drink it this was acceptable behavior
1:18:19 from Muhammad and his followers and how
1:18:24 if you saw anyone doing this if I said
1:18:27 hey there's this place somewhere in
1:18:29 South America or something and they've
1:18:31 got this guy down there and whenever he
1:18:34 spits they rub it on their faces
1:18:36 whenever he washes himself they collect
1:18:38 the water so they can rub it on
1:18:39 themselves whenever he bleeds he gets
1:18:42 cut they drink it you say ah look at
1:18:44 this idolatry look at this paganism
1:18:46 that's exactly how Muhammad expected his
1:18:49 followers to act and for some reason
1:18:53 whenever it's in Islam it's still just
1:18:54 pure monotheism I said that Islam
1:18:58 accidentally deifies Jesus calls Jesus a
1:19:03 laws word and a spirit from Allah now
1:19:07 keep in mind those are the two eternal
1:19:10 co-creating Co eternal beings with Allah
1:19:14 his word and his spirit now this is
1:19:17 interesting
1:19:19 Muhammad said mamita job said that
1:19:22 the Quran calls Jesus the word because
1:19:25 Allah said be and he was so Allah said
1:19:29 be and he was and this makes him a laws
1:19:34 word now that's very interesting because
1:19:35 uh according to chapter 16 verse 40 of
1:19:38 the Quran that's how Allah creates
1:19:39 everything that's how Allah creates me
1:19:43 so Allah created me by saying B and
1:19:46 according to Muhammad hijab that's how
1:19:47 you can identify someone as the word of
1:19:49 Allah what's that make me I am the word
1:19:53 of Allah according to Muhammad hood job
1:19:55 so if you reject anything I've in it
1:19:58 left if you reject anything I say for
1:20:00 the rest of the evening you're guilty of
1:20:03 rebelling against Allah's word as far as
1:20:07 Islam drawing its worship from its basic
1:20:12 practices from the pagans of Mecca it
1:20:16 really noticed you you can read in the
1:20:18 Muslim sources that the pagans are
1:20:19 walking these circles and kissing the
1:20:20 black stone and so on you can also read
1:20:23 that they believed in these seven
1:20:25 planetary deities that are circling the
1:20:27 earth so you can read all about their
1:20:29 worship what you have to believe if you
1:20:31 want to reconcile this with Islam's you
1:20:33 have to say Abraham set that up walking
1:20:35 the seven circles and then the pagans
1:20:37 misinterpreted it at some point and they
1:20:39 started walking seven circles around the
1:20:41 Kaaba for a completely different reason
1:20:43 so you'd have to believe that and then
1:20:45 as far as the black stone well it was a
1:20:47 black stone and then it became part of
1:20:49 their pagan worship and then got brought
1:20:51 back but keep in mind this in seconds a
1:20:53 rock that is going to appear with eyes
1:20:55 and a mouth and you kiss it thank you
1:20:59 very much dr. David look
1:21:02 now we're going to enter into our second
1:21:05 phase of rebuttals word shape each
1:21:07 speaker will have eight minutes each you
1:21:09 can go ahead mr. Hamid hi John he
1:21:12 mentioned again this issue of Salah
1:21:14 Allah Allah and I've told you the
1:21:15 difference I don't know I kept repeating
1:21:16 him he says person work friend lives in
1:21:20 three minutes yeah
1:21:20 he says person this shows you that the
1:21:24 sword upper he thinks he says he thinks
1:21:26 this means that the chapters of the
1:21:28 Quran are persons I wanted to do this
1:21:30 yeah to take a word from Dwayne the rock
1:21:33 Johnson it doesn't matter what you think
1:21:35 it doesn't matter what you think flock
1:21:43 of birds and the man who comes the pail
1:21:46 man yes this is in good deeds and this
1:21:48 proves my point once again that the pure
1:21:50 of the Quran is what is represented the
1:21:53 web you get the rewards for doing the
1:21:56 good then it comes that's what the
1:21:58 hadith is talking about the man comes in
1:21:59 in a good form this is the hadith in
1:22:01 Bukhari he says a lateral also matters
1:22:05 that it's a local commerce Bud's
1:22:06 intercession means policy ISM well
1:22:09 Mendel as he has found that 111 me
1:22:11 chapter 2 verse 255 over on who will
1:22:14 intercede with God except with his
1:22:15 permission it's one part of a verse
1:22:18 which refutes all of your claims about
1:22:20 intercession in fact he says home means
1:22:22 mother it doesn't all only mean mother
1:22:24 don't tell me about the Arabic language
1:22:25 you asked me about Arabic language in
1:22:27 this in this forum you asked me you
1:22:29 don't tell me you ask Muhammad what does
1:22:31 the work home mean you don't tell me it
1:22:34 means this no I tell you it means mother
1:22:36 yes it doesn't only mean mother we say
1:22:38 Omaha telco tube the the main books it
1:22:41 means something foundational Quran Quran
1:22:43 says the main city is come on man
1:22:45 don't waste my time with this he says he
1:22:49 said he actually asked me for something
1:22:51 linguistic he said what's the linguistic
1:22:52 basis that the words Salah
1:22:54 what is it what does it come from
1:22:55 etymologically the word Salah comes from
1:22:57 the word Silla Silla means connection so
1:23:00 it could be any connection it doesn't
1:23:01 necessarily always have to be prayer and
1:23:02 the word actually Salaam means do i yes
1:23:05 this is the root word but it comes from
1:23:07 the etymological root word Silla
1:23:08 which means connection it could mean any
1:23:10 connection serum for exam
1:23:12 connecting with your family members you
1:23:14 don't know these things he says the
1:23:15 quran gets the Trinity wrong and he's
1:23:17 talking about chapter 5 verse 116 of the
1:23:19 Quran where it talks about did you tell
1:23:21 your mother that you can take two of us
1:23:23 as law - beside God it's not talking
1:23:25 about the Trinity in this verse where
1:23:26 does it say this is the Trinity and they
1:23:28 describe it the only the verses that
1:23:30 describe the Trinity
1:23:31 for example chapter 4 verse hundred
1:23:32 seventy one of the Quran other places
1:23:33 the Quran like chapter five with the
1:23:35 brother was reading it never tells you
1:23:37 what the Trinity is which is why for
1:23:38 example many scholars like him came in
1:23:40 as a jobber sahi many scholars actually
1:23:42 did say that the Trinity was Father Son
1:23:44 the Holy Spirit but some scholars
1:23:46 differed with them in exegesis it
1:23:47 doesn't matter the word 3 in Arabic
1:23:49 fellas that means all of the kinds of
1:23:51 Trinity's that all of the Christians
1:23:52 have ever believed in in all of history
1:23:53 so the west allis and arabic is all
1:23:55 comprehensive it doesn't say that the
1:23:57 word Trinity is Mary it doesn't say that
1:24:00 the Quran you have light against the
1:24:01 Quran and then he says here the raw the
1:24:05 Rope of Allah subhana WA Ta'ala this you
1:24:08 have to understand basic basic rules of
1:24:09 grammar of Arabic Udolpho but not got
1:24:12 Allah not that Allah means the coming of
1:24:13 Allah is another person I would help you
1:24:15 I would help you it mean it offer means
1:24:18 that's not going to go into it to be
1:24:20 honest with you it offer it go to a
1:24:22 basic Arabic you know text book your
1:24:25 voice mobile food awfully is the first
1:24:27 thing that our students learn let's not
1:24:29 waste my time with this please you've
1:24:30 come here 20 years of research and this
1:24:31 what you present don't waste my time
1:24:33 it says here Islam accidentally deifies
1:24:37 Jesus because he is Kali Mutulu why does
1:24:41 the Koran call in the Kalima because
1:24:43 it's stressing the fact that Allah said
1:24:45 be and he was
1:24:46 to make an emphasis a point of emphasis
1:24:49 for Christians who believe otherwise
1:24:51 and then the pagans pagan sources he
1:24:55 didn't give any now realize ladies and
1:24:57 gentlemen this man put Christianity
1:24:59 under the bus he threw Christianity
1:25:01 under the bus today I asked him for
1:25:03 questions none of those questions were
1:25:05 answered
1:25:07 those questions were answered by our
1:25:11 minutes now is the Trinity in 300 years
1:25:15 if it is a basic natural inference of
1:25:18 the Old Testament how could you have
1:25:21 4,000 years of Hebrew history no one has
1:25:24 inferred it if it's a natural reading of
1:25:28 the New Testament how comes you have 300
1:25:31 years 300 years and no church father
1:25:35 believed the Nicene to the terrorism the
1:25:37 way that you believe today why are you
1:25:39 back projecting anachronistic Allah
1:25:41 superimposing this idea that was
1:25:45 advanced and crystallized by the
1:25:47 Cappadocia in fathers in 381 and putting
1:25:50 it and forcing it you're the one force
1:25:52 again forcing on the New Testament more
1:25:54 egregiously you're forcing it in the Old
1:25:55 Testament you have put you have done a
1:25:57 shameful service today for the
1:25:59 Christians you have not defended
1:26:00 Christianity today you should have
1:26:02 brought James white with you or someone
1:26:04 like that seriously you should have
1:26:06 brought someone who could have helped
1:26:08 you you are saying me and not Nana and
1:26:10 Ali versus you man you should have
1:26:12 brought someone with you seriously
1:26:13 what's going on here 20 years of
1:26:16 attacking Islam 20 years of attacking
1:26:19 Islam 99% of your content is anti Islam
1:26:22 and all of those things you brought
1:26:23 today were dismissed in four minutes you
1:26:30 couldn't handle the questioning I gave
1:26:33 you four I gave you four questions I did
1:26:37 the servicer of answering all of your
1:26:40 questions you didn't even answer all of
1:26:42 mine how dare you
1:26:45 how dare you
1:26:48 what is this seriously and the reason
1:26:51 why once again I apologize to all the
1:26:54 other Christians here why this man is
1:26:56 made mockumentaries against Islam he's
1:26:58 attacked Muslims and aggravated Muslims
1:27:01 we know his story he's not any regular
1:27:03 Christian ladies and gentlemen the class
1:27:04 is less aware the Christians are not all
1:27:07 the same if it was James White I would
1:27:09 have shown him the utmost respect if it
1:27:11 was William Lane Craig I would have shot
1:27:12 him the utmost respect if it was any of
1:27:14 those guys I would have showed them the
1:27:15 utmost respect for this man no no no no
1:27:18 no no read the Bible I will teach you
1:27:23 the Bible today please stay on topic
1:27:26 okay no problem I've got to one minute
1:27:32 and a half and I'm pretty much done I
1:27:35 can't believe it should I give it as a
1:27:38 charity to him I'll keep it as a charity
1:27:41 - you have a minute-and-a-half
1:27:44 charity for muslim - you go ahead
1:27:52 starting our second rebuttal 8 minutes
1:27:54 dr. David would you may start that's
1:27:56 nine and a half he said I got a charity
1:28:03 thank you thank you I'd say I take all
1:28:06 the charity alright well I guess we'll
1:28:08 start off with the four questions I only
1:28:10 I know we had more rebuttal time and I
1:28:12 didn't think they were too terribly
1:28:13 difficult to answer so let's go through
1:28:15 them question number one why isn't the
1:28:20 Trinity mentioned in the Old Testament
1:28:23 well I pointed out multiple passages
1:28:26 multiple passages where you find a
1:28:29 plurality and the question is why you
1:28:30 have this plurality if it's just this
1:28:35 pure monotheism that Muslims believe in
1:28:37 i quoted isaiah chapter 48 verse 16
1:28:40 where yahweh is speaking and yahweh says
1:28:43 that he has been sent by yahweh along
1:28:45 with the spirit of yahweh how do you
1:28:48 make sense of that note to be clear that
1:28:50 is not that is not a clear statement of
1:28:57 the doctrine of the Trinity but to say
1:28:59 that these passages refute the doctrine
1:29:01 of the Trinity that the Old Testament
1:29:02 refutes the doctrine of the Trinity wait
1:29:04 a minute we'll keep this time
1:29:19 even the go-to verse you have lots of
1:29:22 verses that sound like plurality you
1:29:24 have to interpret those away if you
1:29:25 don't want to believe that the Old
1:29:27 Testament is actually calling for saying
1:29:29 that God is plural in some sense but
1:29:32 even the go-to passage the Shema which
1:29:37 he said it in in the Old Testament and
1:29:40 the New Testament that's the go-to verse
1:29:42 that's the go-to verse that proves this
1:29:48 pure monotheism you know what the
1:29:51 neshamah
1:29:52 actually says shema yisrael Yahweh
1:29:57 Elohim Yahweh Akkad now we insert extra
1:30:01 words in there to make that a complete
1:30:03 sentence what that actually says hear o
1:30:06 Israel Yahweh his name of God hello hey
1:30:10 new means our God Yahweh means our
1:30:14 that's God one that's what it says here
1:30:19 Oh Israel Yahweh Elohim Yahweh one
1:30:23 that's what it says
1:30:25 names God three times and then says one
1:30:29 now this is a Jewish commentary on the
1:30:34 Torah wanted to quote this because
1:30:38 there's a commentary on the Shema itself
1:30:41 the comment saying they say hear o
1:30:43 Israel Yahweh Elohim Yahweh is one these
1:30:48 three are one
1:30:49 how can the three names be one only
1:30:53 through the perception of faith and the
1:30:57 vision of the Holy Spirit and the
1:30:58 beholding of the hidden eyes alone now
1:31:02 that beef by the way these are
1:31:04 Unitarians here but the fact that
1:31:07 they're discussing a kind of try unity
1:31:10 in the go-to passage for Muslims around
1:31:14 the world to say this refutes the
1:31:16 doctrine of the Trinity and they're
1:31:18 describing it in Trinitarian terms again
1:31:24 not the Christian Trinity but try unity
1:31:26 of the names there if that's your best
1:31:28 you're going to need something better
1:31:31 so you find plurality throughout the Old
1:31:34 Testament in various passages why
1:31:36 doesn't the why doesn't God specifically
1:31:38 say Trinity well I think it's very
1:31:41 similar to what you find when Moses
1:31:44 comes along and God says to him Abraham
1:31:48 Isaac and Jacob knew me but they did not
1:31:51 know me as Yahweh now this isn't just
1:31:55 talking about the name is talking about
1:31:56 God's character so think about this God
1:32:00 is bringing a covenant God is bringing a
1:32:02 covenants to the children of Israel with
1:32:05 Moses and then he says I'm revealing
1:32:08 more about myself than I did to Abraham
1:32:11 Isaac and Jacob now think about this
1:32:13 according to Mohamed ajob we'd have to
1:32:15 say oh well why didn't they know this
1:32:16 earlier stuff then why didn't they have
1:32:18 the same knowledge well
1:32:20 Christians and Muslims believe in
1:32:22 progressive revelation God can give more
1:32:24 now think about what God did there he's
1:32:26 giving a covenant a new covenant fact
1:32:28 that we called the Old Covenant now but
1:32:30 back then it was a new covenant he's
1:32:31 giving a new covenant and he says giving
1:32:36 you a new covenant and I'm going to
1:32:38 reveal more about myself to you so
1:32:42 according to the Old Testament what does
1:32:44 God do when he brings a new covenant
1:32:45 well the pattern is he gives them a
1:32:48 deeper understanding of who he is so why
1:32:53 doesn't the Trinity just clearly define
1:32:55 I mean why doesn't the Old Testament
1:32:56 clearly define the doctrine of the
1:32:57 Trinity well in the Old Testament as
1:33:00 well Jeremiah chapter 31 a new covenant
1:33:02 is coming
1:33:03 it's prophesied in the future the big
1:33:06 one is coming the big Covenant is coming
1:33:09 well don't you think God's got some more
1:33:11 information in store for the people of
1:33:13 the new covenant when this new covenant
1:33:15 comes I do and who brings the new
1:33:19 covenant well Jesus it's Jesus entering
1:33:23 the world and then the Holy Spirit being
1:33:26 poured out where we find out about the
1:33:29 inner life of God and this is correlated
1:33:32 with God's plan of salvation four
1:33:35 minutes left so why isn't it clearly
1:33:38 mentioned well that's how God works the
1:33:41 progressive revelation he does this
1:33:43 throughout the Bible he keeps giving
1:33:44 them more
1:33:45 information especially when he's giving
1:33:47 a new covenant Mohammed ajob says white
1:33:50 in the church fathers from the second
1:33:53 third century and so on
1:33:55 give fourth century descriptions of the
1:33:57 doctrine of the Trinity nothing about
1:33:59 this in the first century the books of
1:34:02 the Bible are passed out and they're
1:34:04 they're sort of individual books there's
1:34:07 not a collection yet so in the first
1:34:11 century you've still got books
1:34:13 circulating as individual books by the
1:34:14 second century they start getting
1:34:16 collected let's think about how
1:34:17 Christians are there there you've got
1:34:19 farmers you've got fishermen and so on
1:34:20 you don't have this early on this
1:34:24 professional class of theologians that
1:34:26 builds up over time and for the first
1:34:30 three centuries Christians are and
1:34:32 Christianity is an illegal religion and
1:34:35 persecuted they can't get together for
1:34:36 big conferences to do stuff and to and
1:34:40 have and to have discussions like this
1:34:42 the first time they're able to get
1:34:45 together and have these big these big
1:34:47 councils is in the fourth century and
1:34:49 that's what they do and it gets ironed
1:34:51 out very quickly so the problem as far
1:34:54 as what's revealed to the Christians
1:34:57 they have revelations about the father
1:34:59 about the son about the spirit these
1:35:02 things are given to them one they need
1:35:06 the tools of exegesis for saying this is
1:35:10 what the Holy Spirit did this is what
1:35:12 Jesus did how do we understand the
1:35:14 eternal nature of God based on this well
1:35:17 that's kind of difficult work to do
1:35:19 ladies and gentlemen it's kind of
1:35:21 difficult work to do so that sort of
1:35:24 thing takes a while and they don't have
1:35:26 the terminology how are you describing
1:35:27 God being one in essence or nature and
1:35:30 three in person they don't have a
1:35:32 there's no language to apply to the
1:35:34 eternal God they eventually settle on
1:35:36 some but that takes time but throughout
1:35:39 this father is God Holy Spirit is God
1:35:42 son is God this is revealed in Scripture
1:35:44 if every church father in the history of
1:35:47 the world had gotten it wrong that
1:35:48 wouldn't change what the Bible teaches
1:35:49 and by the way just imagine if if we're
1:35:53 going to be discussing the nature of the
1:35:55 Quran or something like this and I start
1:35:56 oh you know we got Sunnis and Shias
1:35:58 and these earlier heretical groups and
1:36:01 everyone's getting stuff wrong and so on
1:36:02 well it's LOM should be defined by the
1:36:05 Islamic sources and the teachings that
1:36:07 you could draw from them just like
1:36:08 Christianity should be defined by
1:36:10 Christian sources question three was who
1:36:13 says that the Holy Spirit is co-equal
1:36:15 and coeternal which part of he's God
1:36:20 don't you understand right if the Holy
1:36:24 Spirit is God we see how where do you
1:36:27 say co-equal and coeternal with the
1:36:30 father like later creeds say where does
1:36:32 it say where did they say that earlier
1:36:34 one minute left
1:36:36 he's God if I say the Holy Spirit has
1:36:42 the attributes of God
1:36:43 you can ask well what about all these
1:36:46 later distinctions it became very
1:36:48 important to them later on when they're
1:36:49 dealing with various kinds of heresies
1:36:50 they come up with the terms to respond
1:36:52 to the heresy but all of these are based
1:36:54 on going back to the scriptures and
1:36:56 seeing what lines up with them and
1:37:00 finally how can we reconcile the
1:37:01 contradiction of the Trinity I don't
1:37:03 know what you mean by contradiction
1:37:04 contradiction is saying that a statement
1:37:07 is both true and false at the same time
1:37:09 in the same sense no Christian says that
1:37:12 God is one and three in the same sense
1:37:14 never met a Christian who said that say
1:37:17 that God is one in essence or being or
1:37:20 nature and three in person if you say
1:37:23 that's false well I mean think even
1:37:24 Islam believes that God is one in one
1:37:26 more than one in another way God is one
1:37:28 on the level of being more than one on
1:37:30 the level of attribute has mercy tramps
1:37:32 over his wrath you don't say that's
1:37:33 another God why because that's the level
1:37:34 of attribute we have the level of person
1:37:36 Doctorow do time's up
1:37:39 [Music]
1:37:42 good
1:37:43 that's it +5 mister her job yep
1:37:49 if you want to stay seated for the
1:37:50 crossfire that's always in Oh
1:37:52 conclusions no conclusions we're
1:37:54 actually about to do the crossfire okay
1:37:56 questions with so you can go ahead and
1:38:01 ask the first question to dr. David Wood
1:38:03 and he will have two minutes to respond
1:38:06 well let's just start with the questions
1:38:08 you didn't answer which church father
1:38:11 for the first 300 years explicitly
1:38:14 mentioned that the Holy Spirit is
1:38:17 co-equal Co eternal with God again from
1:38:24 the Bible on the Holy Spirit is God now
1:38:29 here's what I don't understand if you
1:38:30 take someone like Tertullian or
1:38:31 something like this and say who calls
1:38:33 the Holy Spirit God and the question
1:38:35 then becomes well when did he say he's
1:38:38 co-equal or Co he turned what do you
1:38:40 think God what do you think these guys
1:38:42 mean when they say the Holy Spirit is
1:38:44 God what do you think the Bible means
1:38:46 the Bible calls him eternal what do you
1:38:49 mean koete urn Allah if he's eternal
1:38:51 then he's obviously Co eternal with the
1:38:53 father so I'm not under it's like it's
1:38:57 like saying if I tell you I am the
1:38:59 current president of the United States
1:39:00 and you say aha but where where are you
1:39:03 claiming to be Donald Trump well if I
1:39:05 claim to be the current president of the
1:39:07 United States I would be claiming to be
1:39:08 Donald Trump right I don't have to say
1:39:10 that other thing right so if you say so
1:39:13 and so is God or so-and-so has the
1:39:15 attributes of God it just doesn't make
1:39:19 it just doesn't make sense to say well
1:39:20 where is he
1:39:20 co-equal with the Father echo this these
1:39:23 are one minute these are terms these are
1:39:25 terms this is language that was used in
1:39:29 later councils to clarify right to
1:39:35 clarify I mean I got turn right around
1:39:36 say where does the Quran say that the
1:39:39 Quran is eternal well that's a
1:39:41 conclusion you draw right that's a
1:39:43 conclusion you draw from various things
1:39:45 that the Quran says it doesn't say that
1:39:46 right you have to interpret it that way
1:39:48 I don't understand why you can say okay
1:39:51 well the Bible says that the father is
1:39:53 God the Holy Spirit is God the Son is
1:39:55 God
1:39:56 and therefore as far as the essent as
1:39:58 far as their essence they're all god
1:40:00 they're all Yahweh and therefore in that
1:40:02 sense they are co-equal so what you have
1:40:06 is later church father saying ok if they
1:40:08 all share the same essence then in that
1:40:09 sense they're co-equal why would they
1:40:12 why would you expect someone in the
1:40:13 first century to use a word that came
1:40:16 about to clarify something in the fourth
1:40:18 century I don't know
1:40:19 thank you very much dr. bud you may ask
1:40:25 your first question in towards mr. Raja
1:40:28 yes
1:40:30 going back to Allah pray because I'm not
1:40:33 just trying to mess with you guys here
1:40:34 really I'm really confused right because
1:40:38 as I pointed out you have Muslim
1:40:40 translators translating passages in the
1:40:42 hadith saying that Allah and His
1:40:45 creation prays and you look at the Quran
1:40:48 and it's using similar word but this is
1:40:50 different this is the Quran and you know
1:40:52 it's multiple passages and then we'll
1:40:54 some translators are translating it as
1:40:56 praise and then you have I think it's
1:40:58 turma D which which use it and it won't
1:40:59 translate as anything it just says a lot
1:41:01 of performances a lot right they won't
1:41:03 say what it means because if you say it
1:41:05 means praise then you're going to be
1:41:06 confused and if you translated it
1:41:08 something else well if you're then
1:41:11 you're gonna have to nail down a
1:41:12 definition of the word so what should
1:41:14 this word mean what should this in the
1:41:17 in the Quran and the hadith how should
1:41:19 this be translated and why are even
1:41:24 Muslim translators now translating as
1:41:26 praise if there's this clear other
1:41:28 meaning I have two minutes I don't think
1:41:31 I need two minutes to be honest with you
1:41:33 I think I've dealt with that extensively
1:41:34 the well Salah solidly Allah is
1:41:37 different from so Leela and this these
1:41:39 are basically these are certain
1:41:42 propositional words that come after the
1:41:46 verb and depending on which of those
1:41:49 words come it differentiates the meaning
1:41:51 completely so because it says Allah
1:41:53 Allah and you'll never find anyone the
1:41:54 Quran verse says leave for example after
1:41:57 the Asolo respects of Sarah province
1:41:59 Rosalind linguists and Muslims clearly
1:42:03 concludes that
1:42:05 it means blessings etc now obviously
1:42:08 just looking at the Quran on a cursory
1:42:11 level if you read it in English
1:42:13 translations of the meanings you'll find
1:42:15 that there are certain verses before I'm
1:42:16 if you are just if you respect your
1:42:18 intellect you will see that it does not
1:42:22 tell you to pray to Prophet Muhammad
1:42:23 does not because it tells you only let
1:42:25 Allah Hill and the Quran says lie lie
1:42:26 low only God is worthy of worship you
1:42:29 know these things so one minute I
1:42:32 appreciate that you've come a bit more
1:42:33 humble this time and you said I'm
1:42:35 confused I hope I hope you have
1:42:38 understood this now and if you don't I
1:42:39 think you should blame your intellect
1:42:41 and your lack of knowledge that's that's
1:42:43 that's the state it should be right now
1:42:44 but just to just to kind of touch upon
1:42:46 what you said because I do have a bit of
1:42:48 time back so Chilean he was a
1:42:49 subordination list so Julian was a
1:42:51 subordination is he died 240 I don't
1:42:53 actually think you read his works yeah I
1:42:55 don't believe you read his works his
1:42:57 primary source materials all stipulate
1:42:58 he does use the language of the fourth
1:43:00 century men but he does not use it in
1:43:02 the context of the Holy Spirit and so
1:43:05 therefore I conclude that so Chilean was
1:43:07 and that's why he's deemed as a heretic
1:43:08 by the Catholics he's and and by the
1:43:10 Protestants he's deemed and other people
1:43:12 are deemed as heretics so it's a back
1:43:14 projection based on later developments
1:43:16 of the church and this is something you
1:43:18 could not deal with basically in this
1:43:20 second in the end in this particular in
1:43:23 this particular debate thank you very
1:43:30 much mr. job you might go forward with
1:43:31 your second question all right so you
1:43:33 you spoke about the attributes of you
1:43:36 spoke about the attributes of the Holy
1:43:37 Spirit etc I'm just going to give you
1:43:40 one example I mean it's a very easy
1:43:42 question in mark chapter 13 verse 32 it
1:43:46 says only the Father Knows when the hour
1:43:48 is now I understand why the son might
1:43:51 not know because it's the human side you
1:43:52 see it's the human side so he you know
1:43:55 the god side might know what the human
1:43:57 but what about the Holy Spirit why does
1:43:59 the Holy Spirit not know when the hour
1:44:01 is
1:44:04 I have two minutes dr. hood well the
1:44:09 Holy Spirit is included
1:44:11 we have elsewhere that the Holy Spirit
1:44:14 searches the mind of God and knows
1:44:15 everything that God knows if you look at
1:44:18 what Jesus is doing there when he says
1:44:21 when he says no one he's referring to
1:44:23 the level of human beings by the way if
1:44:24 you if you guys like that verse that's
1:44:27 uh if you believe Jesus said that then
1:44:29 Islam is false because notice you've got
1:44:31 father and son there according to Quran
1:44:33 Allah as a father to know in the highest
1:44:35 relationship you can have with Allah as
1:44:36 a slave to master relationship so did
1:44:39 you believe that then Islam is false but
1:44:42 if you look what he says there already
1:44:45 he sets up a hierarchy says the day of
1:44:48 their time he says no one knows
1:44:50 referring to the level of men and then
1:44:52 he says not even the angels so that's
1:44:56 the entire created order no man knows
1:44:59 not even the angels not even the son
1:45:03 only the father so even in this verse
1:45:06 you're quoting he's putting himself one
1:45:09 minute left he's putting himself above
1:45:11 all of creation he's putting himself
1:45:14 above all of creation and so the
1:45:17 question is why wouldn't why would Jesus
1:45:19 say that he doesn't know the hour well
1:45:20 there's there's a long explanation which
1:45:23 I'm not even sure it is correct but
1:45:26 usually we would we would explain this
1:45:28 in terms given the easier one here
1:45:32 you're interfering of my time here they
1:45:35 straightforward one is Christians also
1:45:38 believe in the canosa's when Jesus takes
1:45:41 on human nature they find this in John
1:45:43 one and Mohammed mentioned earlier the
1:45:47 the him to Christ in Philippians where
1:45:50 it says he was in the form of God but he
1:45:52 made himself nothing taking on the
1:45:54 nature of a servant and we believe he
1:45:56 actually took on the nature of the
1:45:58 servants and limited himself in that way
1:46:01 if you believe it's a problem by the way
1:46:03 I mean think about it the Quran doesn't
1:46:04 contain verses that the eternal Quran
1:46:06 has and yet you still believe you have
1:46:08 the Quran he
1:46:09 certain things have been withheld from
1:46:11 you so thank you very much doctor would
1:46:14 you could start your second question
1:46:24 right now uh yeah I'm confused by this
1:46:30 claim which you made earlier that that
1:46:32 Jews Jews have regarded the doctrine the
1:46:36 Trinity as polytheism Jews never saw any
1:46:38 plurality in the Old Testament
1:46:40 that's simply false before the end of
1:46:42 the second century AD it was very
1:46:44 widespread to see a plurality within the
1:46:46 one God this is from Benjamin's summer
1:46:49 from the Jewish Theological Seminary in
1:46:51 New York who writes no Jew sensitive to
1:46:54 Judaism's own classical sources can
1:46:57 fault the theological model Christianity
1:46:59 employs when it avails belief in a God
1:47:01 who has an earthly body as well as a
1:47:03 Holy Spirit and heavenly manifestation
1:47:06 for that model we have seen is a
1:47:08 perfectly Jewish one a religion whose
1:47:10 scripture contains the fluidity
1:47:12 traditions whose teachings emphasize the
1:47:14 multiplicity of the Shekinah and whose
1:47:17 thinkers speak of the sefirot does not
1:47:20 differ in its theological essentials
1:47:22 from a religion question its questioning
1:47:26 so if Jewish scholars who are
1:47:29 acknowledging that the turn to
1:47:32 Unitarianism only arose in the second
1:47:34 century as a reaction to Christianity to
1:47:36 set themselves against the Christians
1:47:37 more how can you say that Jews never saw
1:47:41 this when it's widely understood that
1:47:42 they did have two minutes thank you for
1:47:46 that question he talks about in the last
1:47:49 part of his speech the Shama and how it
1:47:51 can mean three gods now he's speaking
1:47:53 about he spoke about three minutes about
1:47:55 Prophet Muhammad spitting I believe you
1:47:57 me I think that generally speaking if
1:48:00 you saw if you give your exegetical
1:48:02 interpretation to a rabbi I think you
1:48:04 would spit at you
1:48:05 because I don't think anybody of the
1:48:08 Jewish in 4,000 years of Hebrew history
1:48:11 has ever believed in what you say that
1:48:14 they believed give me one primary source
1:48:16 of any Jew that believed in the Trinity
1:48:21 one don't give me Benjamin Summers is a
1:48:24 secondary source of material you're
1:48:25 meant to come here with academic
1:48:26 information and I've always I've only
1:48:28 mostly quoted you primary source
1:48:31 materials you're an academic you
1:48:32 understand how it works in academia give
1:48:34 me a primary source material of a Jew
1:48:36 who believed three co-equal Co eternal
1:48:42 independent beings you will never all
1:48:45 persons of a bill of one God you will
1:48:47 never find this one minute left okay in
1:48:50 that minute since to be honest with you
1:48:54 I mean it was pretty easy to answer his
1:48:57 question actually I'll give it to him
1:49:00 man I don't need to I'll give it to him
1:49:01 I'll give it to is it my turn to ask
1:49:09 yeah okay I'll give you a primary source
1:49:15 material Justin Martyr was a was a
1:49:20 church father as you know who was very
1:49:24 early I think he died 110 or something
1:49:26 like that ad and he wrote a book called
1:49:28 the first apologies in chapter 21 of
1:49:31 this book
1:49:33 Justin mata was having a conversation
1:49:35 with a pagan okay and he said to the
1:49:39 purse of the pagan he said to him that
1:49:43 just as you believe that Jupiter is God
1:49:47 and there are sons of Jupiter we believe
1:49:51 that the father is God and Jesus is the
1:49:53 Son of God my question to you is this
1:49:58 how can you assure us today that in the
1:50:02 first 300 years of Christian history
1:50:04 that there has not been a
1:50:07 mythological influence in the
1:50:12 formulation of the Trinity you have two
1:50:16 minutes dr. Woodley
1:50:17 [Applause]
1:50:20 well we we have first century documents
1:50:27 right with the the possible exception of
1:50:30 Luke they're all devout Jews they had
1:50:34 utter contempt for the religions of the
1:50:39 pagans of the polytheists the scriptures
1:50:41 that they appeal to are the Old
1:50:44 Testament these guys were thoroughly
1:50:46 Jewish they appealed to Old Testament
1:50:49 prophecies they are devout monotheists
1:50:55 the views they came to have about Jesus
1:50:58 and the Holy Spirit came from Jesus and
1:51:00 the Holy Spirit they didn't go up to
1:51:02 Europe and get something about Zeus or
1:51:04 something like that so we know where
1:51:07 their beliefs came from right Jesus
1:51:09 comes in the world Jesus makes all kinds
1:51:11 of claims these guys many of these early
1:51:13 Christians went to their horrible bloody
1:51:16 deaths proclaiming that Jesus is Lord
1:51:20 one minute left
1:51:22 if they were just sort of trying to
1:51:24 compromise or picking up something they
1:51:26 heard in in the market they they
1:51:31 wouldn't have to deal with that sort of
1:51:32 thing as for as for Justin Martyr now
1:51:35 Justin everyone acknowledges that Justin
1:51:37 Martyr makes a bad comparison but he's
1:51:39 actually appealing to the Rome leaders
1:51:41 to stop persecuting Christians making a
1:51:44 plea here stop stop killing us stop the
1:51:46 persecutions please we're begging you
1:51:49 and in this is well you know we believe
1:51:53 Jesus the Son of God you believe in sons
1:51:54 of God so where are you guys out here
1:51:56 where you why are you guys out here
1:51:58 persecuting us you can't draw a
1:52:00 tremendous amount of that about our
1:52:04 theology coming from them especially
1:52:08 when you have Old Testament passages
1:52:10 send out the son the Messiah
1:52:13 and the Messiah being the Sun and the
1:52:15 Sun beating the mighty God thank you
1:52:18 very much doctor would you may ask your
1:52:21 third question yes Touhey when we look
1:52:33 at all the things we have here we have
1:52:35 the eternal word of allah which is co
1:52:38 eternal and so he's got his Co eternal
1:52:39 word with them we've got a spirit we've
1:52:42 got all of these different things going
1:52:44 on and then you have the word tell heed
1:52:49 to describe it which doesn't simply mean
1:52:51 oneness as I understand it's right so
1:52:53 since you're talking about the Arabic
1:52:55 here as I understand it comes from Ojeda
1:52:58 which means to unify and therefore
1:53:01 tawheed means the unification but if
1:53:04 you're unifying something then you're
1:53:05 bringing different things together and
1:53:07 so if we look and we see these flocks of
1:53:10 birds taking the place of the pagan
1:53:13 goddesses and interceding for you and
1:53:15 things like that could this word tell
1:53:21 heed means something beyond oneness here
1:53:24 when we see all of these different
1:53:25 things if Allah is trying to avoid
1:53:27 anything but Touhey and you've got all
1:53:29 of these different things and things
1:53:31 that are Co eternal with them and
1:53:33 interceding flocks of birds how do we
1:53:39 reconcile all this okay thank you so
1:53:43 here is a we equal a muster in the
1:53:45 Arabic language yes you're right to say
1:53:47 it comes from the Arabic word Waheeda
1:53:49 which means unifying something and it
1:53:53 could mean different things in different
1:53:54 contexts for sure now the quran let's
1:53:57 look at what the quran actually says the
1:53:58 quran says cool who allah who one more
1:54:02 time one more time thank you one more
1:54:05 time one more time
1:54:08 okay okay ahead in Arabic language means
1:54:13 the one and only yes there was this
1:54:17 difference in were hit and I had warhead
1:54:19 could mean something which is cardinally
1:54:21 counted there's cardinal numbers one the
1:54:25 first second third yes what I hate yeah
1:54:28 but I had can never be so means one and
1:54:33 only that's what the Koran says in one
1:54:35 of the smallest chapters when you say
1:54:39 that the the Quran one minute left the
1:54:42 Quran this is this is a most half okay
1:54:44 these are pages and this this is these
1:54:47 are pages right
1:54:48 we don't believe these pages and this
1:54:49 ink is co eternal we don't believe that
1:54:53 John Jennison I'm saying these pages and
1:54:56 this thing this this is not we don't
1:54:59 really have never said no Muslim has
1:55:01 ever said in history that this is Co
1:55:03 eternal it's never there not even the
1:55:05 martyrs in Exodus by the way from Lhasa
1:55:07 not our lightest we don't have to say
1:55:09 three ad
1:55:09 aah so no one has said that what we
1:55:12 believe is that the Kalam of Allah which
1:55:14 is the words of Allah are an attribute
1:55:16 of God without mchb we don't make we
1:55:20 don't like in it and that the Quran
1:55:23 spoken from Allah is a subset of that
1:55:26 attribute that's our belief not this
1:55:28 physical thing here that you see with
1:55:30 the patron saint we don't believe in
1:55:32 that thank you very much miss Punjab
1:55:38 for mister Hadj app sharks have sports
1:55:40 questions it's a friendly reminder
1:55:41 please turn your cell phones off or keep
1:55:43 it on silent so it won't distract the
1:55:45 speakers thank you very much you may go
1:55:47 ahead mister hand job thank you very
1:55:49 much
1:55:51 the question I have is looking at a lot
1:55:55 of your content online in the past week
1:55:58 or two I found that seemingly I mean you
1:56:02 can correct me if I'm wrong yeah you
1:56:03 seem to make a moral case for
1:56:07 Christianity in a moral case against
1:56:08 Islam I watched one of your videos with
1:56:11 someone called Elliot I I think his name
1:56:13 was and he made the point he asked you a
1:56:15 question
1:56:16 it's on the record he said if Jesus and
1:56:19 this what we've been talking about today
1:56:21 is the author of the Old Testament if
1:56:24 Jesus is the author of the Old Testament
1:56:26 how can you explain all of the things
1:56:29 which is deemed as immoral because as a
1:56:32 divine command theorist I would expect
1:56:35 you to believe that all of the things in
1:56:37 the Old Testament in terms of
1:56:39 injunctions if there had been made by
1:56:40 Jesus who is meant to be the author of
1:56:42 the Old Testament God the triune God
1:56:44 would have been good but you actually
1:56:47 said it's bad there are lots of Baptist
1:56:49 these rewards there are lots of bad
1:56:50 things in the Old Testament
1:56:52 now if Jesus is God and he's the old
1:56:54 four author of the Old Testament and he
1:56:57 has bad injunctions how can you
1:57:00 reconcile the fact that God a maximally
1:57:03 perfect good being could give us bad
1:57:06 injunctions
1:57:12 Doctorow do you have two minutes yeah I
1:57:14 don't recall saying bad things I have to
1:57:17 take a look at the clip I did
1:57:19 acknowledge that there all I said there
1:57:21 are all sorts of things in the in the
1:57:23 Bible that bother me
1:57:24 I do recall saying that and what I mean
1:57:27 by that is I'm a philosopher I'm a
1:57:29 former atheist when and this would go
1:57:32 for the Quran as well when when you know
1:57:34 things in passages talking about Hell or
1:57:37 something like that eternal torment or
1:57:39 warfare or something like that
1:57:41 those things bother me that doesn't mean
1:57:44 I reject that they're from God actually
1:57:45 okay those are something I've noticed a
1:57:47 mindset in Islam that if you accept
1:57:49 Islam you you can never really think
1:57:52 critically about it and I can't I can't
1:57:56 be like that
1:57:56 so always I'm always wrestling with
1:57:59 issues Old Testament and New Testament
1:58:02 and with the Quran as well so as far as
1:58:04 as far as them the moral case if we're
1:58:08 talking about
1:58:10 Old Testament passages looking at those
1:58:11 things yeah I would say these things are
1:58:13 these things they're you know the one
1:58:16 minute left entering the land of Canaan
1:58:18 and fighting the Canaanites and so on
1:58:19 those things those things they make me
1:58:21 wonder sometimes but if you believe that
1:58:25 Jesus rose from the dead then you have
1:58:28 to say okay if Jesus rose from the dead
1:58:29 then if I'm going to listen to anyone
1:58:31 tell me about God I'm going to listen to
1:58:34 Jesus and so if he's Lord then hey if
1:58:38 something bothers me that's my problem
1:58:39 right that's my problem that's something
1:58:41 I have to wrestle with God accepts that
1:58:43 we have to wrestle with think the Psalms
1:58:44 are filled with people really really
1:58:46 wondering why certain things are
1:58:48 happening and I don't think that's a bad
1:58:50 thing and I don't think God thinks it's
1:58:51 a bad thing when we look at something
1:58:53 and go wow that's really rough now I
1:58:55 really want to I really want to think
1:58:56 about that so I don't see there's any
1:58:58 big problem if something bothers me but
1:59:00 I'm convinced that I have good reasons
1:59:03 to believe in Christianity then 10
1:59:04 seconds I don't really see the problem
1:59:06 and that's why I would still accept it
1:59:09 because Jesus rose from the dead thank
1:59:13 you doctor would
1:59:15 you may ask your fourth question yes in
1:59:21 the hadith I'm wondering because when
1:59:24 Allah says however you want to translate
1:59:27 it he says he prays and the angels pray
1:59:31 therefore you pray it's like he's
1:59:32 setting himself up as a model so however
1:59:34 you want to translate that that's not
1:59:35 fun I'm not talking about that but he's
1:59:37 setting himself up as a kind of model
1:59:38 for behavior but in hadith we read
1:59:40 Muhammad's saying that if you swear
1:59:44 about Heidi's yeah it was questioned
1:59:46 yeah if you swear by anything other than
1:59:49 Allah you're committing shirk and
1:59:51 setting it up as a partner with Allah so
1:59:53 if Muhammad says that swearing by
1:59:55 anything is committing shirk and in the
1:59:57 Quran Allah swears by literally
1:59:59 everything he swears by all kinds of
2:00:01 things and then says he swears by the
2:00:02 seen and the unseen then if Muhammad
2:00:06 says doing this is shirk and Allah then
2:00:09 does it with literally everything
2:00:11 doesn't this sound more like pantheism
2:00:14 then if everything is set up with a
2:00:17 partner as a partner with Allah so it's
2:00:19 mainly about what sort of things Allah
2:00:21 has to do when Muhammad lays down rules
2:00:22 like that
2:00:23 you have two minutes thank you by
2:00:28 definition can only be done by other
2:00:31 than Allah by definition
2:00:37 because it means associating
2:00:40 partners with allah that's what that's
2:00:44 what shirk is associating partners with
2:00:46 Allah so Allah can not it's not within a
2:00:50 lot of attributes to do it's not
2:00:53 possible that's not a possibility right
2:00:55 so the question that you ask is about
2:00:58 how comes Allah a person will be had and
2:01:01 valid levels may be either always in the
2:01:03 world fedorov and all this
2:01:04 he makes cool Qasim he does always in
2:01:07 the Quran well Allah even doesn't offer
2:01:10 himself a fellow Arabic a layman who now
2:01:14 had to hack him or give him a shot
2:01:15 Saravanan so the point is why does Allah
2:01:19 have the ability to do to make an oath
2:01:21 with anything he wants and we can only
2:01:24 make an oath with Allah because Allah
2:01:26 owns everything
2:01:27 one minute land to allah we belong this
2:01:30 is the reality yes oh and the scholars
2:01:33 say and the scholars say whatever Allah
2:01:36 makes an oath off that becomes weaker
2:01:38 more album chillon it becomes an
2:01:40 important thing in the Sharia okay now
2:01:43 really and truly just to because some
2:01:45 Muslims might be confused with is it
2:01:47 true that if someone does custom with
2:01:49 other than Allah that they've committed
2:01:51 major this is not the view of the
2:01:54 majority of scholars alright so they say
2:01:55 that this is a minor kind of just
2:01:57 for the filthy things don't make takfeer
2:02:00 of your friends are saying or my mom's
2:02:02 life yes don't do next communication of
2:02:04 them so that hopefully answers your
2:02:06 question thank you you may ask your
2:02:12 first question oh yes this is really
2:02:16 interesting to follow up from what you
2:02:18 said before because it seems to me that
2:02:20 it was not a satisfactory answer you
2:02:22 were saying that you were wrestling with
2:02:24 with these things in the Bible wrestling
2:02:27 grappling in your mind about these
2:02:28 things in the Bible in the Old Testament
2:02:30 you seem to think that morality yes can
2:02:36 be achieved you're a philosopher yes
2:02:39 can be achieved from other than an
2:02:42 objective law it is your suggestion that
2:02:43 an objective morality can be achieved
2:02:45 from other than the objective law so I
2:02:50 want to understand as a are you a divine
2:02:54 command theorists do you believe that
2:02:55 the injunctions of God must be perfect
2:03:00 and if if you do believe this how can
2:03:02 you explain and you did say bad it can
2:03:05 easily be retrieved on the ins and I
2:03:06 listened to it just yesterday you said
2:03:08 the Old Testament has bad things in it
2:03:10 you said this yes how can you explain
2:03:12 that a maximally perfect good God at one
2:03:19 point and time put forward injunctions
2:03:25 which could be bad or which otherwise
2:03:27 bother you can you explain them I have
2:03:33 two minutes doctor would oh
2:03:35 I mean if you mean hey you know there's
2:03:37 all kinds of really bad things going on
2:03:39 in the Old Testament yes very very bad
2:03:41 things going on in the Old Testament
2:03:42 right it's a history right but I mean
2:03:45 you can take any history book and say oh
2:03:47 look at all these bad things going on if
2:03:49 you mean that things you know that did I
2:03:52 say well you know hey you know I'm
2:03:54 wondering about this that's not just me
2:03:56 I mean I'm a diagnosed psychopath right
2:03:59 I don't have I don't have bad feelings
2:04:02 about these kinds of things the
2:04:05 reconciliation is that in the New
2:04:07 Testament God is defined as love right
2:04:10 we're told God is love which we only
2:04:12 understand in a Trinitarian it makes no
2:04:14 sense for God to be loved from all
2:04:17 eternity but in the light of the
2:04:21 doctrine of the Trinity with Father Son
2:04:22 and Holy Spirit now we can see how God
2:04:24 can be loved from all eternity not just
2:04:26 not just one person within God so if
2:04:31 Jesus says that if we're told that that
2:04:34 God loves everyone left that we are to
2:04:38 love everyone that we are to harm no one
2:04:41 that we are to seek peace with everyone
2:04:44 we're told these then I have to obey
2:04:47 these kinds of things and so the
2:04:50 difficult part the
2:04:52 part then becomes what would I do about
2:04:55 these Wars and so on given what I now
2:04:57 believe about God and so that's where
2:05:00 the struggle comes in
2:05:01 fortunately the bible does deal with
2:05:03 that right jesus says Jesus says Moses
2:05:06 allowed divorce in these certain in
2:05:08 these circumstances because of the
2:05:10 hardness of your heart but from the
2:05:12 beginning it was not so now look at what
2:05:14 he said here this is not the will of God
2:05:16 God is allowing certain things at
2:05:18 certain times because of the hardness of
2:05:20 your heart
2:05:20 so even according to the Bible that is
2:05:23 not the ideal situation that is not in
2:05:25 solids will for Humanity God looks down
2:05:27 and sees a world of sinners and then has
2:05:32 to deal with that right and it's not
2:05:34 always it's not always going to be
2:05:35 pretty but the New Testament affirms
2:05:37 that the the situations in the Old
2:05:39 Testament were not always ideal thank
2:05:41 you doctor would you may ask your fifth
2:05:46 question yes chapter 61 verse 14 of the
2:05:53 Quran Allah says that he aided the true
2:05:58 followers of Jesus until they became
2:05:59 uppermost now I suppose you can
2:06:02 interpret that in different ways
2:06:03 commentators such as Yusuf Ali
2:06:04 interpreted it specifically to mean that
2:06:07 Christians the Christian followers of
2:06:09 Jesus took over the Roman Empire and
2:06:11 that that's how they that's how they
2:06:13 became uppermost and and more powerful
2:06:16 than the Jews who rejected Jesus but we
2:06:19 know that the Christianity that took
2:06:21 over Europe took over the Roman Empire
2:06:23 believed in Jesus death resurrection and
2:06:26 deity and the Trinity by the time they
2:06:28 did and so why would Allah help the
2:06:32 wrong Christians if there were earlier
2:06:33 Christians who believe the right thing
2:06:35 why did Allah help the wrong ones
2:06:36 according to the Quran according to the
2:06:38 Quran thank you according to the Quran
2:06:42 the disciples of Jesus the how are you
2:06:45 were Muslim this is the answer okay the
2:06:48 Quran says about the Haroon in Chapter
2:06:51 three of the Quran fresh had bien
2:06:54 slimmin let us know let we bear witness
2:06:57 that we are Muslims meaning what
2:06:59 not that they believed in Prophet
2:07:00 Mohammed know that they were submitters
2:07:02 to God in the same way that Jesus wasn't
2:07:04 John chapter 5 verse 30 I don't submit
2:07:06 myself to my own will but the will of
2:07:08 God so why did Allah help the hilarion
2:07:12 in sorts of stuff in chapter 61 of the
2:07:14 Quran al Imran chapter 3 of the Quran
2:07:17 because they followed Jesus and he was a
2:07:20 prophet of God and so therefore Allah he
2:07:24 helped them because he they followed the
2:07:26 true prophet at that time and that true
2:07:28 prophet which we believe in as the
2:07:29 Messiah was Jesus Christ so it was
2:07:32 nothing to do with the Roman Empire this
2:07:33 stuff seer is null and void you will not
2:07:35 find this anyway all sorts of stuff this
2:07:38 thing about the Roman Empire no no this
2:07:40 one in it laughs you will not find this
2:07:41 in poverty you will not find this in
2:07:42 quote to be you'll not find this in
2:07:43 Lukis here you will not find this in any
2:07:45 of them as Celine's works it is
2:07:47 something I don't know what you've got
2:07:48 it from but here is the the the initial
2:07:50 point is that the how are you the
2:07:52 disciples we have good opinion of them
2:07:54 yes and that is why I say to you and
2:07:56 I've been saying to you for the for the
2:07:58 whole discussion you will not find a
2:08:00 Polish apostolic succession for your
2:08:03 beliefs as a Christian you will not find
2:08:06 apostolic you will not find an opus
2:08:09 taluk provenance back to Jesus Christ
2:08:12 for what you believe you have to go
2:08:13 further back in time you have to back
2:08:14 project you have to take the ideas of
2:08:16 the later people and basically and in
2:08:19 some terms makes up dia you have to
2:08:22 render heretical the earlier people we
2:08:25 as Muslims we believe that the earlier
2:08:26 peoples of the prophets were the best
2:08:28 and then they became worse as it goes on
2:08:30 you as Christians believe in the
2:08:32 opposite and that's a disaster of a
2:08:33 belief
2:08:37 [Music]
2:08:39 Thank You mr. job and you may ask her
2:08:41 sixth and final question related to this
2:08:44 I want to just ask this question one
2:08:48 last time because I've given him many
2:08:50 times in this debate an opportunity to
2:08:52 ask this question okay my question is
2:08:55 simple I appreciate that
2:08:58 early church fathers believed that Jesus
2:09:02 was God some of them did believe that
2:09:04 some of them believed he was God but not
2:09:06 co-equal that he was in a hierarchy some
2:09:09 of them believed he was God but not in
2:09:12 the same level as like subordination ISM
2:09:13 right I am asking a question if they
2:09:18 could designate Jesus as God's co-equal
2:09:22 and coeternal and they used that
2:09:25 language respective to Jesus can you
2:09:28 give me one person who has interpreted
2:09:30 the New Testament yeah for in the first
2:09:33 300 years who has said the same thing
2:09:37 about the Holy Spirit because if you
2:09:40 cannot the frank truth is you have a
2:09:43 baseless foundation for your belief for
2:09:46 300 years people would have been the
2:09:48 farmer as you know what the farmer the
2:09:50 fisherman the you know the butcher the
2:09:53 teacher all of those individuals are
2:09:55 damned to hell
2:09:56 despite the fact that they had the
2:09:58 Gospels in front of them because they
2:10:01 couldn't make the natural inference of
2:10:02 the Holy Spirit being God can you give
2:10:04 me one person church father first 300
2:10:07 years who designated the Holy Spirit as
2:10:11 co-equal Co eternal independent the same
2:10:15 language that they use in Nicaea for the
2:10:17 Holy Spirit please do so
2:10:23 I'm shocked that people still take this
2:10:25 here who called the Holy Spirit Khoa
2:10:27 turned the Bible calls him eternal the
2:10:31 Bible calls him eternal that language
2:10:37 that specifically he he said here's a
2:10:40 counsel in the fourth century that came
2:10:41 up with a specific way of phrasing
2:10:44 things
2:10:45 well that was to help people avoid
2:10:46 confusion here so if we're saying that
2:10:50 the Holy Spirit is God father is God the
2:10:53 Son is God if this is revealed in
2:10:56 Scripture there's only one God guess
2:10:57 what that's what they were believing
2:10:59 time if someone objects at some point
2:11:02 and says I believe that the Holy Spirit
2:11:05 is not eternal well then in your Creed
2:11:08 you need to clarify hey this guy doesn't
2:11:11 know what he's talking about the Bible
2:11:12 says that he's eternal
2:11:13 so he's Co eternal with the father and
2:11:16 so they put it in a Creed just to be
2:11:19 clicked Creed's have no authority beyond
2:11:21 the scripture one minute left
2:11:24 there's this scripture but it's a lot
2:11:27 it's 66 books covers 1500 years 40
2:11:32 different authors right there are
2:11:34 threads running throughout the scripture
2:11:37 right the purpose of the Creed is to say
2:11:39 here's a little short list of the
2:11:41 essentials here's a short list of the
2:11:44 essentials to make sure that you're on
2:11:45 the right side of being an Orthodox
2:11:48 Christian and so I put a little Creed
2:11:51 there just because Oh so-and-so is
2:11:53 coming to a different position and he's
2:11:54 contradicting the Bible therefore we
2:11:56 need to make we need to make sure we
2:11:57 mentioned Co eternal here right but the
2:12:00 Co eternal does not come from the
2:12:02 counsel the co eternal comes from the
2:12:04 Bible right and all of the claims about
2:12:06 the Equality of the Father the Son and
2:12:09 the Holy Spirit those come from the
2:12:11 scripture acknowledging them all as
2:12:13 Yahweh sin seconds and so you're
2:12:17 basically saying hey why are you using
2:12:18 language of clarification later on that
2:12:21 you didn't use earlier
2:12:22 well the earlier people have said we
2:12:25 and he's God so before we start our QA
2:12:35 each speaker will have five minutes for
2:12:37 that inclusions anyway he started why
2:12:39 shouldn't I
2:12:40 what's that no no I mean he started with
2:12:43 the question so oh yeah I wasn't
2:12:46 counting so I wasn't counting but you
2:12:48 have the six questions there's one final
2:12:49 question
2:12:50 okay this is kind of a side issue but I
2:12:53 was wondering about it because uh
2:12:55 Mohammed you mentioned the Ebionites as
2:13:00 early as an early group who didn't
2:13:04 believe in the deity of Christ the
2:13:06 Ebionites as I understand that we're a
2:13:09 group they didn't have the Bible they
2:13:11 only had part of the Gospel of Matthew
2:13:13 so they had part of the Gospel of
2:13:16 Matthew and in that part of the Gospel
2:13:17 of Matthew even have the beginning but
2:13:19 they also rejected the virgin birth they
2:13:22 didn't believe that prophets actually
2:13:24 got revelations from God the prophets
2:13:25 spoke on their own wisdom so if we're
2:13:27 taking the Ebionites as the true
2:13:30 followers of Christ here what we have to
2:13:32 reject Islam as well okay thank you now
2:13:38 I've never made the claim that the
2:13:39 Ebionites are the true followers of
2:13:40 Christ that's something you have said
2:13:41 that's not something I've said I've just
2:13:43 made the point that they had the Islamic
2:13:45 position on two aspects the non divinity
2:13:48 of Jesus Christ and the non divinity of
2:13:49 the Holy Spirit now they didn't have the
2:13:51 Bible do you know why because they came
2:13:53 before Jordan
2:13:54 they came on 70 AD John came 95 AD
2:13:59 [Applause]
2:14:01 [Music]
2:14:02 I don't know what to say they only had
2:14:04 the Gospel of Matthew because only Mark
2:14:06 Matthew and Luke the synoptic Gospels
2:14:08 were available to them they had those
2:14:09 synoptic Gospels now the thing is when
2:14:13 you when you talk about what they
2:14:14 actually believed in I gave you a
2:14:16 primary source material Hippolytus he
2:14:19 said who was the student of the rainiest
2:14:22 and he was a student of Justin Martyr
2:14:25 and who taught origin of clam
2:14:27 origin of Alexandria he said in against
2:14:31 the heresies
2:14:31 chapter xxii what they believed you can
2:14:34 go and check it if you don't believe me
2:14:35 it's a primary source material now one
2:14:37 minute left I've got I mean I will use a
2:14:39 minute now the point you said here about
2:14:42 the Holy Spirit is absolutely null and
2:14:44 void you know how many things in the
2:14:45 Bible are coated our eternal look at
2:14:48 Milch istic the mill Chyzyk he didn't
2:14:51 have a mother it didn't have a father in
2:14:52 the book of Hebrews he was eternal bring
2:14:55 you into the Trinity bring him into the
2:14:56 Trinity today bring him into the Trinity
2:14:58 today if that's your only parameter if
2:15:00 that is the only thing you have you said
2:15:02 God just because something is referred
2:15:04 to as cos in the Greek it must be a
2:15:06 co-exist Co eternal then bring Paul in
2:15:09 bring the devil in because they're
2:15:11 called Theo's as well
2:15:14 [Applause]
2:15:17 now as it relates to how long of all
2:15:20 left okay as it relates to the Holy
2:15:23 Spirit gregory of nazianzus and gregory
2:15:25 of nyssa they throw in church documents
2:15:28 primary source materials you can check
2:15:29 the website many prophets one message it
2:15:31 has all the references they quote we
2:15:33 didn't know people were disputing about
2:15:35 what the Holy Spirit is some said it was
2:15:37 a creature some said it was God
2:15:39 some said was this some said it was that
2:15:40 we did not know that's what they said
2:15:42 it's not an argument from Silence I'm
2:15:44 making it's an argument from evidence
2:15:51 thank you very much my job
2:15:55 dr. wood you may start your five minute
2:15:57 conclusion or switching
2:16:12 well thank you thank you again a couple
2:16:15 side notes here who says the Ebionites
2:16:17 were too early our earliest reference to
2:16:19 the EB Knights was from 140 of course
2:16:23 they they they could be earlier but the
2:16:25 point is these were people who had one
2:16:28 part of one gospel and there were
2:16:32 certainly there were certainly the rest
2:16:33 of the Gospels around during the time
2:16:36 but they are they're regarded as a
2:16:38 radical offshoot of Judaism so to lay
2:16:42 them down as authoritative again these
2:16:44 are these are guys who didn't believe
2:16:45 that prophets spoke from God they didn't
2:16:47 believe in the virgin birth and so on so
2:16:49 these guys are the closest to the true
2:16:51 Jesus then we have to reject the Islamic
2:16:54 Jesus they said no kids it echoes
2:16:56 eternal now you have to understand what
2:16:57 what the author of Hebrews is doing
2:17:00 there he's talking about the
2:17:01 descriptions right we don't have really
2:17:04 time to go into this if someone wants to
2:17:06 bring it up in the Q&A ask about
2:17:07 Melchizedek when we can actually go what
2:17:09 he's doing it he was not saying that
2:17:10 Melchizedek milk acidic is eternal
2:17:13 certainly not claiming that so and the
2:17:18 last point just because something is
2:17:20 called a God in Scripture doesn't mean
2:17:22 it's a you know it has divine attributes
2:17:25 as not God yes we understand the term
2:17:27 they us in the the term Elohim and the
2:17:29 Old Testament can mean various things
2:17:31 the question is how are these terms used
2:17:33 of Jesus how are these terms used of the
2:17:36 Father how are these terms used of the
2:17:39 Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit is creating
2:17:41 the world in the Bible the Holy Spirit
2:17:44 is eternal in the Bible so they just
2:17:47 brush that off and say one of the things
2:17:48 are called gut yeah not in the same not
2:17:51 in that way right you could say oh those
2:17:52 are false gods they're you're calling
2:17:54 them you're saying they're their gods in
2:17:56 some way you're using the term but
2:17:58 you're not applying it seriously when we
2:18:01 have Father Son and Holy Spirit these
2:18:03 are used seriously of Father Son and
2:18:08 Holy Spirit so as far as what we have
2:18:11 what we have tonight again we see in the
2:18:15 Old Testament we see from the opening
2:18:18 verses of the book of Genesis and
2:18:19 throughout the Old Testament various
2:18:22 claims of plural
2:18:24 within the one god Jewish commentators
2:18:28 have mentioned this modern experts in
2:18:33 Judaism acknowledged that prior to the
2:18:36 end of the second century where the
2:18:39 Jewish community swung very hardly in a
2:18:42 Unitarian direction there was widespread
2:18:45 agreement in the Jewish community and
2:18:47 Muhammad had job how did he respond well
2:18:49 show me where they say co-equal Co
2:18:51 eternal father son holy snow one's
2:18:54 claiming they knew that the point was
2:18:56 you think they had this how he dish
2:18:59 belief and they just didn't write what
2:19:02 did what did the scholar say and what do
2:19:03 various Jewish scholars say that's the
2:19:06 doctrine that Christians believe in
2:19:07 would have fit in very comfortably with
2:19:09 what Jews prior to the second century at
2:19:12 Finan there would have been nothing
2:19:13 therefore for a Jew to claim about to
2:19:16 complain about in terms of theology they
2:19:18 would reject they wouldn't reject it by
2:19:19 saying oh that's a confusing doctrine of
2:19:21 God is the point they say we reject
2:19:23 Jesus as the Messiah that would be the
2:19:25 main complaints of Jews during the time
2:19:30 and what have we seen on the other side
2:19:32 right and here's what's interesting
2:19:34 Christians have a lot of data right we
2:19:38 have the Old Testament passages we have
2:19:40 Jesus coming into the world and we see
2:19:43 the various things that Jesus did and
2:19:45 the claims he made and since he rises
2:19:47 from the dead we have to take those
2:19:48 claims seriously so when he's claiming
2:19:49 to be the final judge of all mankind
2:19:51 when he's claiming to be the one who
2:19:54 raises the dead at the resurrection we
2:19:57 recognize the kinds of claims that he's
2:19:59 making and then when we find various
2:20:01 claims about the Holy Spirit we take
2:20:02 those seriously and we say all right
2:20:03 everything that God has revealed to us
2:20:05 we have to take seriously and the only
2:20:09 way to take it all seriously is with
2:20:10 something like the doctrine of the
2:20:11 Trinity one minute left
2:20:13 we turn to Islam and we find all kinds
2:20:17 of things that are just confusing right
2:20:19 you know I talk about Allah praying and
2:20:22 it means sending blessings there
2:20:23 perfectly you say Baraka right we know
2:20:27 how to say that why does he use the word
2:20:29 that's prayer so much so confusing so
2:20:31 confusing that even Muslim translators
2:20:33 are now translating it as Allah pray
2:20:36 of different circumstances a lot praying
2:20:37 for self-control so that his mercy can
2:20:39 triumph over his wrath and we find this
2:20:41 over and over again that you have an
2:20:43 eternal word that there is a spirit that
2:20:46 proceeds from within Allah that you have
2:20:49 a man that his followers were we're
2:20:52 drinking his blood all of these things
2:20:54 if we said again goddesses are
2:20:57 interceding with you with a lot you
2:20:59 would say polytheism but the quran is
2:21:00 doing in the form of birds who know
2:21:02 things who talk and it's pure monotony
2:21:04 seconds left and so when we see this
2:21:06 over and over again islam looks like
2:21:09 it's trying to copy christianity but
2:21:12 just doing a really bad job of it thank
2:21:16 you very much dr. word five minutes
2:21:24 never would has been more interested or
2:21:27 more concerned with trying to disprove
2:21:29 islam today than defending christianity
2:21:33 he talks about the indian accent as
2:21:35 being a radical offshoot this is a a
2:21:38 historic way of rendering history one
2:21:40 man's Orthodox is another man's heresy
2:21:43 gospel Gospels he says in one other time
2:21:45 he says the Gospels were not present at
2:21:47 the time of the church father this is a
2:21:48 liar I missed reading one
2:21:50 misunderstanding you should be reading
2:21:51 his primary source materials almost all
2:21:53 of them refer to the four Gospels all of
2:21:55 the major Church Fathers referred to the
2:21:57 four Gospels let's say from Justin
2:21:59 Martyr onwards 100% this is something
2:22:01 well-known look at their works
2:22:03 Athanasius he's the one who make it a
2:22:06 short list of what is going to be the
2:22:08 Bible right he made a short list in mid
2:22:10 4th century the 27 books of the Old
2:22:13 Testament now the question we could ask
2:22:15 is who gave him the authority to do that
2:22:16 to include in God's Word to take out of
2:22:19 God's Word this is God's Word this is
2:22:21 not good why is the Gospel of Thomas not
2:22:22 in the Bible why is it he's making the
2:22:24 decision it then became quite popular
2:22:26 and it was an organic thing it wasn't in
2:22:28 the council that these are the 27 books
2:22:29 of the Old Testament that's another
2:22:31 issue when we talk about the Bible what
2:22:33 are we really talking about there's
2:22:35 issues with the Bible there is no chain
2:22:38 going back to Jesus everything that we
2:22:40 have called a sorry hadith an authentic
2:22:42 hadith has a chain going back to Prophet
2:22:44 Muhammad or Allah
2:22:46 and that's what you don't have and
2:22:47 that's why our books are preserved and
2:22:48 yours are not that's another issue he
2:22:54 says he believes in progressive
2:22:55 revelation in the Oh in the New
2:22:58 Testament or light that's very good you
2:23:01 know why because I agree with him on
2:23:02 this point I want to end with this I
2:23:04 agree with him
2:23:04 I believe he's right yes the bible does
2:23:07 talk about a progressive revelation
2:23:08 which is why it talks about the upcoming
2:23:12 prophet and that's why if you read
2:23:19 isaiah 42 ask answer me this
2:23:23 who in history has come to the kada
2:23:25 right there arabs has made the people of
2:23:29 Celle the mountaintops rejoice who in
2:23:32 history went to the Arabs and made the
2:23:34 Arabs rejoice defeating his enemies in
2:23:37 military warfare and this is not
2:23:39 something we're shy about by the way
2:23:40 this is something we're very proud of
2:23:41 very proud of this is something we're
2:23:47 very proud of because our prophet is a
2:23:50 winner and military winner it's part of
2:23:53 his prophecy that he was going to do
2:23:54 that
2:23:55 that's what Deuteronomy chapter 18 says
2:23:56 that there was going to be one of the
2:23:58 ways to tell a true prophet is through
2:23:59 prophecy every single one of the
2:24:01 prophets Muhammad's prophecies came true
2:24:02 look at the Quran it's a way that a
2:24:05 Christian an honest Christian could come
2:24:08 to terms who is this man prophet
2:24:10 mohammed salah salem do the research
2:24:11 right he's right there is progressive
2:24:13 revelation but did not end with jesus it
2:24:16 continued to prefer muhammad sallallahu
2:24:18 alayhi wa sallam
2:24:22 and that is why in the Quran it doesn't
2:24:26 mention progressive revelation
2:24:27 heartening the being is the final
2:24:29 prophet if you really want salvation
2:24:31 what lie he all that said and done 20
2:24:34 years of attacking Islam documentaries
2:24:36 you know making fun of Prophet Mohammed
2:24:38 dressing up as a woman and these things
2:24:39 no problem
2:24:40 well I I believe I'm speaking on behalf
2:24:43 of all the Muslims here yes I will
2:24:45 forgive you and the Muslims will forgive
2:24:46 you if you repent today I will forgive
2:24:49 you and the Muslim we will forgive you
2:24:50 if you repent today I want to give you
2:24:54 one piece of advice sorry I'm just
2:24:57 making calling I want to pick I want to
2:24:59 give the Muslims and my concluding
2:25:01 speech one piece of advice which is
2:25:03 you'll find that in first Peter chapter
2:25:05 3 verse 15 that if someone asked you a
2:25:08 question you know about what you what
2:25:11 you hope you know then speed
2:25:14 speak to them respectfully yes honorably
2:25:17 respectfully mocking Muslims you know
2:25:20 dressing like them at these things
2:25:21 that's not respectful be like James
2:25:23 Wyatt be like William Lane Craig we can
2:25:26 have we can have we can have more
2:25:28 fruitful cohesion in our communities man
2:25:31 we want to have cohesion we have Muslims
2:25:36 I'm going that yes I'm putting the olive
2:25:38 branch now to the Christian community we
2:25:40 don't want it we will never the Francis
2:25:42 well that's us too bullet in a downunder
2:25:43 life is so blah I don't want to very
2:25:45 Alan
2:25:45 chapter 6 108 do not cuss their guns
2:25:47 we're not allowed to curse the gods or
2:25:50 other people the Bible is the same
2:25:53 ladies and gentlemen the Bible says
2:25:54 don't don't cuss look at first Peter
2:25:57 chapter 3 verse 15 don't curse us don't
2:26:00 mock us because like today you will be
2:26:03 shown the truth in a very harsh manner
2:26:05 you'll be shown the truth in a very very
2:26:08 embarrassing manner and that is the
2:26:11 reality ladies and gentlemen come humbly
2:26:16 ten-second come humbly and you'll be
2:26:18 received humbly give us your hand and we
2:26:21 will shake it only if you respect us in
2:26:23 the first place Oh Stella Molly come on
2:26:25 I hate to lie about
2:26:28 [Applause]
2:26:35 thank you very much mr. her job we would
2:26:37 like to thank both of our speakers we're
2:26:40 gonna start taking the questions right
2:26:42 now so for any questions for dr. would
2:26:45 form on the right any questions for dr.
2:26:48 and mr. hey job for him over here please
2:26:51 note doctor yet
2:26:56 what is here
2:26:57 oh okay
2:27:04 give me
2:27:16 you
2:27:30 okay
2:27:40 Oh what are the rules for that
2:27:44 [Music]
2:27:46 the question
2:27:50 no I mean about my time and stuff like
2:27:52 that
2:27:55 so just sort of like that
2:28:14 if we can all be try to be as quiet as
2:28:17 we can we're gonna start our Q&A right
2:28:19 now is it working
2:28:23 testing thanks
2:28:31 first question is going to be to brother
2:28:33 a job
2:28:35 on the right over here this is for
2:28:39 brother head job this any questions for
2:28:41 mr. hijabis start over here questions
2:28:46 for mr. head job just to clarify
2:28:48 questions for mr. her job over here
2:28:49 question for dr. wood would be over
2:28:52 there we'll start the first question
2:29:00 he's going to do too is the mic working
2:29:05 okay okay please if we can stay as quiet
2:29:08 as possible so we can hear the question
2:29:11 so one thing that doctor would a lot of
2:29:14 multiple times during both your intro
2:29:15 your Buttle as well as your conclusion
2:29:17 was the fact that Muslim scholars claim
2:29:19 that companions during the prophets
2:29:21 blood with your level of intellect I
2:29:24 mean with dr. Woods level of intellect
2:29:25 and profession I'm sure you're well
2:29:27 aware of one of the most basic teachings
2:29:29 of Islam which is regarding our diet
2:29:30 which is Wallen haraam or forbidden to
2:29:32 eat anything or drink any type of blood
2:29:34 in any form if you you know have any
2:29:37 doubt you can look at sir 6 I have 145
2:29:39 so you know with the claim above us
2:29:42 Muslims Karl scholars saying that the
2:29:45 Prophet the Companions did indeed drink
2:29:47 the prophet's blood can we get one
2:29:49 incredible name that of a scholar that
2:29:51 did in fact say that
2:29:53 [Applause]
2:29:57 I'm having trouble hearing hairdo can
2:30:00 you repeat like the genetically she was
2:30:02 busily juicing there's a verse of the
2:30:04 Quran that stated that drinking blood or
2:30:06 eating any type of yes so she she asked
2:30:10 if you can provide an actually proven
2:30:11 scholar that states that the that the
2:30:15 Sahaba or the Companions actually drank
2:30:18 the blood of the Prophet is that it was
2:30:20 that good question yes that that was the
2:30:22 question so yeah no I'll give you the
2:30:25 source okay go you want to another floor
2:30:27 c.push take it time don't worry about
2:30:29 that
2:30:33 oh that that's uh that's in that's in
2:30:37 Tati Illya
2:30:39 I'm sorry Cuddy Illya
2:30:42 I can give you the I think the reference
2:30:58 okay so this is a Shiva by gaudí
2:31:06 hillians has muhammad IBN saud waka
2:31:11 describe related that I said to the
2:31:12 Prophet when you come from relieving
2:31:14 yourself we do not see anything noxious
2:31:16 from you he said I should do you not
2:31:18 know that the earth swallows up what
2:31:20 comes out of the prophets so that none
2:31:21 of it is seen although this tradition is
2:31:24 not famous the people of knowledge still
2:31:27 notice the people of knowledge still
2:31:29 mentioned the purity of his feces and
2:31:31 urine there was also the time when Malik
2:31:33 Hibbins and n drank his blood on the day
2:31:36 of a hood and licked it up the Prophet
2:31:38 allowed him to do that and said the fire
2:31:41 will not touch you so this is pages 35
2:31:45 through 37 of sg5 thank you very much
2:31:48 dr. wood next question for mr. job good
2:31:54 hi some good debate things you proud you
2:32:00 debate you kept saying that there was no
2:32:01 apostolate succession for the Trinity
2:32:04 and basically until the next scene the
2:32:07 cops of night scene there was nothing
2:32:08 about the Trinity no but no church
2:32:10 father has said anything between Jesus's
2:32:12 death and 300 and whatever ad or
2:32:15 whatever that occurred one question for
2:32:18 you then can you name one person between
2:32:21 33 AD and 583 who said anything about
2:32:26 Islam because there was no apostolate
2:32:28 succession for Islam either so it was
2:32:31 the exact ly what he's saying can you
2:32:33 can you think he was basically saying
2:32:35 that if you could mention if you can
2:32:38 mention a source from free ad Jesus's
2:32:43 crucifixion so about the time of 583 ad
2:32:46 win when your prophet began yeah please
2:32:54 but he was started in fighting you can
2:32:58 actually speak into this mic just let
2:33:03 him come on
2:33:04 they might just need to turn that mic up
2:33:07 hi
2:33:08 so I was asking if you know one of your
2:33:11 core if questions were you know what's
2:33:14 the apostolate succession between the
2:33:16 Trinity Trinity there was nothing
2:33:18 mentioned by the church fathers between
2:33:20 Jesus's crucifixion and the council
2:33:23 might may seem can you mention one
2:33:27 person historically who has talked about
2:33:29 the massive succession of Islam between
2:33:32 33 AD and 583 AD when your prophet began
2:33:37 when my prophet began sorry what I don't
2:33:41 get it sorry what would you think he's
2:33:42 basically asking for a reference from 33
2:33:45 82 583 to 5 over 3 well is it was
2:33:48 mentioned that the prophecy Islam was
2:33:50 coming what sorry guys I'm really I'm
2:33:54 not doing it on purpose the source were
2:33:57 or any-any
2:33:59 is you're talking about Islam or
2:34:00 Christianity he's talking about Islam
2:34:01 okay 33 8 D so if they did not ask me I
2:34:04 know I know he says it was there
2:34:06 referenced it's not something to portray
2:34:08 that would say that Islam is coming okay
2:34:11 it's landing submission there's a
2:34:13 reference to that in the Bible John
2:34:14 chapter 5 verse 30 because it says I
2:34:16 don't submit myself to my own will but
2:34:18 to the will of the father that is Islam
2:34:19 linguistically that's what Islam means
2:34:21 so that's in the Bible we don't need to
2:34:23 go to 33 AD
2:34:24 is out it's alright I mean is that a
2:34:28 question yeah yeah sorry one more view
2:34:32 one more time I'm not understanding a
2:34:33 question you're saying that there's
2:34:35 there's nothing about the Trinity
2:34:36 between 33 AD and about the time of the
2:34:38 Council of Nicaea this is this is talks
2:34:40 of your argument Oh
2:34:42 the things you said the most yet but by
2:34:44 that same definition we have nothing
2:34:46 between 3380 that speaks anything about
2:34:48 anything what not anything in the crowd
2:34:49 but most of the things in the crop or
2:34:51 Islam yes okay as Muslims we don't
2:34:57 believe that the Quran was revealed to
2:35:00 Jesus we believe it was revealed to
2:35:02 Prophet Muhammad right so obviously the
2:35:04 Quran because it was not revealed to
2:35:06 Jesus it would be no reference to it
2:35:08 because it was a final Testament that
2:35:09 came afterwards you see so when I made
2:35:12 my argument I wasn't I did not make the
2:35:14 argument that the Trinity was not
2:35:15 mentioned yeah the Trinity was mentioned
2:35:17 by Tertullian I did I mentioned that I
2:35:19 mentioned the Nicean Trinity of 381 and
2:35:23 after that which stipulates very
2:35:26 specific specific parameters as to what
2:35:28 the Trinity is and what the Trinity
2:35:29 isn't that was my argument yes so I
2:35:32 didn't say the Trinity is not there in
2:35:34 the first wave of 300 years I said then
2:35:36 I see in Trinity wasn't there that's
2:35:38 what it's that my my point was that if
2:35:41 you don't believe that Jesus is divine
2:35:42 you don't believe that the Holy Spirit
2:35:43 is divine like many monarch in it
2:35:45 morning artists and even eyes didn't
2:35:48 believe then by definition you believe
2:35:50 there's only one God worthy of worship
2:35:51 right and if that if that's what you
2:35:54 believe then you're a Muslim in a sense
2:35:55 because you'll submit yourself to one
2:35:57 God so from that perspective I think the
2:35:59 case can be made thank you thank you one
2:36:06 question over there for dr. wood all
2:36:09 right so can you hear me properly dr.
2:36:11 wood I just want to make sure a little
2:36:13 bit all right I don't know if I'm in a
2:36:14 bad spot that's the only mic I could
2:36:16 hear really well just loud I might
2:36:18 better now
2:36:21 so my question is regarding the equality
2:36:24 among the Trinity
2:36:25 so in Matthew 28 verse 18 Jesus says
2:36:31 that all authority is giving to him and
2:36:33 on in the heavens and on earth and then
2:36:35 in John chapter 16 verse 13 and states
2:36:40 that but when the spirit of truth comes
2:36:42 he will be he will guide you into all
2:36:44 truth for he will not speak on his own
2:36:47 authority but he will speak on what he
2:36:49 hears so if the Holy Spirit is God why
2:36:52 doesn't he have any authority to speak
2:36:54 thank you if you look at if you look at
2:37:00 how the Gospel of John is using these
2:37:05 terms it's the the emphasis in these
2:37:08 passages is not is not that the Holy
2:37:13 Spirit is not God or that Jesus is not
2:37:17 God he's trying to show that there they
2:37:21 are one like in other words in John
2:37:24 chapter 5 right Muslims love to bring up
2:37:26 John chapter 5 where Jesus says of my
2:37:29 own self I can do nothing check-check
2:37:30 we're good sense of my own self I can do
2:37:33 nothing they say aha right there which
2:37:35 is parallel to the spirit doesn't speak
2:37:38 on his own on his on his own authority
2:37:40 right if you look at what's actually
2:37:41 going on there at the beginning of John
2:37:44 I mean earlier in John chapter 5 because
2:37:47 Jesus is calling himself the Son and
2:37:50 saying that he can work on the Sabbath
2:37:54 because the father does notice Jews are
2:37:56 not allowed to work on the Sabbath Jesus
2:37:58 says but the Father works on the Sabbath
2:38:00 and so do i right when he said that they
2:38:03 accused him of claiming to be another
2:38:05 God right he's a rogue deity right he's
2:38:08 a separate so what he does there and the
2:38:13 rest of John chapter 5 that's where he
2:38:15 claims to that he's the one who raises
2:38:17 the dead at the resurrection he says
2:38:19 that he's the one who is the final judge
2:38:22 and he says that we have to honor
2:38:26 just as we honor the father right so
2:38:29 keep in mind we have to you would only
2:38:32 honor someone the same way you honor the
2:38:34 father if he has the same nature nature
2:38:36 and attributes as the father so when he
2:38:38 says when he says that he can do nothing
2:38:40 of himself or when the holy spirit does
2:38:42 not not speak on his own authority what
2:38:45 these are saying is they don't do these
2:38:48 things separately as separate deities
2:38:51 from the Father because that's the
2:38:53 accusation as soon as you start saying
2:38:54 some things are divine they start
2:38:56 accusing of saying there's other gods so
2:38:58 the emphasis is he doesn't do this on
2:38:59 his own all right thank you very much
2:39:03 dr. wood we're past the halfway mark
2:39:05 right now and q8 so we're gonna try to
2:39:07 speed it up as much as we cancel will
2:39:09 limit each answer to one minute for both
2:39:12 speakers so I think the next question is
2:39:15 for mr. Jeff yes I have a question for
2:39:18 mr. headshop I was wondering since the
2:39:20 thrust of your argument hinges on
2:39:23 David's inexpert flaw knowledge of
2:39:26 Arabic don't you think it's a little odd
2:39:28 that the will of God can only be
2:39:31 discerned by people who speak in it so
2:39:34 Tarek language spoken by less than 5% of
2:39:37 the population and which has many
2:39:41 dialects and isn't even spoken by the
2:39:44 majority of self-professed Muslims and
2:39:47 what do you think of the fact that there
2:39:49 are people who are very learned in
2:39:51 Arabic who even born in Arabia who have
2:39:53 the same epistemological moro scientific
2:39:56 and historical critiques of the quran
2:40:00 thank you very much
2:40:02 the question was about the Arabic
2:40:03 language of the Quran and you were
2:40:05 saying that is it is it the case that
2:40:07 only Arabs can access the Quran in a
2:40:09 nutshell is it why is it the only 5% of
2:40:11 the population can access this and the
2:40:13 rest cannot now there's a difference
2:40:15 between understanding the fundamentals
2:40:17 of a religion yes and trying to do
2:40:19 exegesis yes exegesis is when you try
2:40:23 hermeneutic ly to go into the text and
2:40:26 understand it holistically and for that
2:40:30 you require language ability for that
2:40:34 you require whether you're doing with
2:40:35 the Bible or the
2:40:36 you require to have some kind of ability
2:40:38 to understand the language otherwise
2:40:40 your hermeneutic will be necessarily
2:40:42 limited now just quickly as I do have a
2:40:45 little bit of time answering the
2:40:47 question or the point on on John that
2:40:50 that David talked about don't John John
2:40:53 chapter 10 verse 34 Jesus clearly says
2:40:56 why did you call me God I mean they were
2:40:58 about to stone him when he said this and
2:41:00 he's really is referencing Psalms 82 so
2:41:03 if you really believe he's God then why
2:41:04 is he saying didn't didn't you say this
2:41:08 of old like you are gods
2:41:10 NUI are gods in other words it's a
2:41:13 language of the people and that's one of
2:41:15 the biggest problems serve them sorry
2:41:17 I'm sorry
2:41:18 apologies good you can go ahead question
2:41:22 for dr. wood I have one question for you
2:41:28 it has three co-equal parts but I assure
2:41:31 you that it is just one question you try
2:41:32 to keep it to one we're trying to get as
2:41:33 much
2:41:35 three is one
2:41:46 can I ask it would you agree that the
2:41:51 concept of the Trinity has evolved over
2:41:53 time what do you say about Revelation
2:41:56 chapter 22 verse 18 to 19 where it says
2:41:59 I warn everyone who hears the word of
2:42:01 the prophecy of this book if anyone adds
2:42:04 to them God will add to him the plagues
2:42:07 described in this book is etc etc etc
2:42:10 and can you explain Matthew chapter 7
2:42:13 verses 21 to 23 where Jesus says I never
2:42:16 knew I never knew you get away from me
2:42:20 well there he says not everyone who says
2:42:23 not everyone who says to me Lord Lord
2:42:25 will enter the kingdom of heaven but
2:42:28 only those who do the will of my father
2:42:30 so he will say I never knew you I don't
2:42:35 understand what what the problem is
2:42:37 there Jesus calls himself Lord but he's
2:42:39 saying not even not you you don't just
2:42:40 call him Lord and then and then you're
2:42:42 fine moves the other party what do you
2:42:45 would you agree that the concept of
2:42:48 Trinity has evolved over time
2:42:49 oh no the clarification of the concept
2:42:51 right keep in mind whether you're
2:42:54 talking about the Quran whether you're
2:42:55 talking about the Bible
2:42:56 you have historical events you have
2:42:59 revelations from prophets statements and
2:43:02 so on and if you're coming up with the
2:43:05 Creed you're trying to clarify it you're
2:43:08 trying to make it as concise as possible
2:43:09 so yeah they had to cook they had to
2:43:13 figure out how to say things in using
2:43:17 certain terms in language but matryona
2:43:21 God is eternal right the triune God is
2:43:23 eternal our our descriptions our
2:43:26 descriptions may take time but that's
2:43:28 not it that's not the Trinity evolving
2:43:31 that's our concepts being clarified and
2:43:33 what about the third part where I said
2:43:35 what do you say about revelation chapter
2:43:37 22 verse 18 to 19 where it says I want
2:43:40 everyone who hears the words of the
2:43:42 prophecy of this book if anyone adds to
2:43:44 them God will add to him the plagues
2:43:47 described in this book etc etc well the
2:43:49 book of Revelation it the author I
2:43:52 didn't know he's gonna be writing last
2:43:53 book of the Bible he's talking about his
2:43:54 prophecy his prophecy in book of
2:43:55 Revelation don't take my prophecy and
2:43:57 add a bunch of words to them so he's
2:43:59 just saying hey don't add to my prophecy
2:44:00 here and act like it's my prophecy that
2:44:03 doesn't mean you can't clarify concepts
2:44:05 right so thank you very much question
2:44:10 for mr. hijab yes a question for mr.
2:44:13 David I'm sorry I have question if I
2:44:15 miss to work for mr. would would have to
2:44:19 take questions on the surface at first
2:44:20 anyone wants answer of course go ahead
2:44:22 Louis up I had a question for you yes
2:44:26 are you certain that you will be going
2:44:29 to heaven Janna as according to Islam
2:44:33 says you yourself no does that concern
2:44:37 you maybe David will go to heaven and I
2:44:39 will go to hell that's a possibility you
2:44:42 know I mean I as a Muslim as a Muslim I
2:44:45 can't guarantee and you know Christians
2:44:47 say Christians say that you know God
2:44:50 this is one of the arguments that you
2:44:51 can't guarantee you it's off the kingdom
2:44:53 of heaven yeah yeah that's true that's
2:44:55 true that what why is that amount to the
2:44:57 falsity of Islam I mean what logical
2:44:59 reasoning is that anyways the point is
2:45:01 say for instance you're a Christian and
2:45:03 you believe that if you're a Christian
2:45:05 you're going to go to heaven but even
2:45:06 according to your own belief system
2:45:08 there is a possibility a logical
2:45:10 rational possibility that for instance
2:45:12 you'll die upon Hinduism or atheism or
2:45:14 do Judaism and in which case you will
2:45:16 have to you have to conclude that you
2:45:18 cannot be perfectly sure that you're
2:45:21 going to heaven because that would mean
2:45:23 that you have perfect knowledge of the
2:45:24 future and not only do you not have that
2:45:27 perfect knowledge nor not even the Holy
2:45:29 Spirit had that knowledge oh thank you
2:45:31 very much mr. head now
2:45:33 you may ask your question for dr. wood
2:45:35 are you like yeah he said in the
2:45:37 beginning that God was in heaven and he
2:45:41 was his the spirit was hovering of over
2:45:44 the heaven and it was a mystery and the
2:45:46 mystery was supposed to be revealed but
2:45:49 it went on more into dark that mystery
2:45:52 never got explained if I am if I'm
2:45:54 pushed towards believing God to be a
2:45:56 mystery it will be Hinduism when God
2:45:59 comes through multiple incarnations to
2:46:01 earth in order to fix people does that
2:46:05 mean Christianity is a subset of
2:46:07 Hinduism when he claims Jesus came as a
2:46:09 incarnation of God
2:46:14 [Music]
2:46:25 if in Hinduism it is a common belief
2:46:28 that God comes as incarnations and I
2:46:31 suppose you also believe that Jesus came
2:46:35 as incarnation of God onto the earth to
2:46:37 fix people and to teach the variety does
2:46:41 that mean in Christianity is a subset of
2:46:43 Hinduism in terms of its beliefs no you
2:46:53 can't say anyone who believes in an
2:46:54 incarnation is a subset of Hinduism
2:46:58 if someone who's never heard one single
2:47:00 thing about Hinduism which would have
2:47:02 been first century Jews believed in an
2:47:04 incarnation has nothing has nothing to
2:47:07 do with with Hinduism just because you
2:47:10 have some sort of parallel in some way
2:47:15 like oh but there are many religions
2:47:17 that believe in rising from the dead
2:47:19 doesn't mean they all stole it from each
2:47:20 other so no
2:47:29 right
2:47:33 next question for mr. Hodge ah yeah oh
2:47:37 yeah guys thank you for coming thanks
2:47:39 Danika Mohammed and yeah so my question
2:47:42 is like there's a question that Debbie
2:47:44 dude asked about the fact that the Quran
2:47:46 says that Bob sorry Oh
2:47:48 the Quran says that the followers of
2:47:51 Jesus was supposed to be uppermost and
2:47:54 so like I was wondering what your
2:47:56 understanding of that is because I
2:47:58 thought that them being uppermost would
2:48:00 be that they're the ones who are going
2:48:02 to overcome over the disbelievers and so
2:48:05 we obviously know that Chris the
2:48:07 Christians who were there during
2:48:08 Muhammad's time we lived in the Trinity
2:48:11 and so like I was just wondering what
2:48:13 happened to Jesus's disciples according
2:48:16 to Islam and why did they why were they
2:48:19 not able to counter the faults yes
2:48:21 disciples well about this Virgil Idina
2:48:26 Ibaka focal Idina kafir o Allah I am
2:48:28 talking about the Howard Ian it says
2:48:31 that we're going to make them higher
2:48:32 than those who have disbelieved until
2:48:34 the day of judgment yes so it's talking
2:48:37 about the disciples of Jesus we believe
2:48:39 that those early Christians were on the
2:48:42 truth let me repeat the quran says very
2:48:45 clearly that those Christians will go to
2:48:47 heaven those Christians will go to
2:48:49 heaven they believed in Christ they were
2:48:51 followed Christ they believed in his law
2:48:53 etc now there's a difference now as a
2:48:57 point of demarcation between the early
2:48:59 Christians the disciples and then the
2:49:02 Church Fathers and then those who came
2:49:03 up to those so the point is as Muslims
2:49:06 our Creed is we believe Jesus was
2:49:08 innocent of all of this that his
2:49:10 followers were innocent of all of this
2:49:12 and that he and that they are people who
2:49:15 are honored in Islam and whoever says
2:49:16 anything wrong about the disciples in
2:49:18 Islam has left Islam because of
2:49:20 something in Islam yeah
2:49:22 which is very clear it's a clear point
2:49:25 of our Peter for us yes if anyone of
2:49:27 course is the the heroin the disciples
2:49:30 this is Cooper because Allah he says
2:49:32 were giant which means this belief well
2:49:34 giant ladina at about a focal Edina
2:49:37 control a blue camera at the same time a
2:49:38 lot of heart Allen says Lockhart cover
2:49:41 led no koala innallaha hulusi have no
2:49:43 Marion the ones who say that Jesus is
2:49:45 gone they are disbelievers as well so it
2:49:47 can't be both ways can't be both thank
2:49:50 you very much one question for dr. book
2:49:55 before I begin David would said that the
2:49:58 Companions of the Prophet deified the
2:50:01 Prophet well when he died Abu Bakr told
2:50:04 the people that he told the people that
2:50:06 the Prophet has passed away but God is
2:50:08 alive and he can never die Sahih Bukhari
2:50:11 book 64 hadith 472 now before that was
2:50:15 just a clarification my question is in
2:50:17 the Old Testament God says he is not a
2:50:19 man Hosea 11 9 and he is not the son of
2:50:22 a man numbers 23:19 and he has full
2:50:25 knowledge psalms 147 Jesus is a man he
2:50:29 calls himself the son of man and he
2:50:31 doesn't know everything Christians will
2:50:32 say that was before he took on the body
2:50:34 and he took on the attributes of man but
2:50:36 doesn't this contradict Malachi 3:6
2:50:38 where the Lord says he does not change
2:50:43 [Applause]
2:50:49 I was like 12 things yeah it was one
2:50:54 thing try to answer whatever you can all
2:50:56 right as far as yeah we understand that
2:50:58 Muhammad has died that the problem is
2:51:00 that Islam keeps taking these things
2:51:02 like the black stone and the Kaaba and
2:51:05 Muhammad and treating them in a way that
2:51:07 is far beyond what you would expect for
2:51:09 a mere creation so yes I understand
2:51:11 you know Muhammad died and is not a god
2:51:13 in that sense I'm saying they're showing
2:51:15 reverence that should never be shown to
2:51:17 a mere human being as far as God not
2:51:20 being a man or the son of man if you
2:51:23 look what's what's being said there God
2:51:25 is asked to change his mind he said God
2:51:27 is not a man that he should then he
2:51:29 should change his mind so it's saying
2:51:31 his character is not going to change
2:51:32 which is the same thing you find in
2:51:33 Malachi God is not going to change his
2:51:36 character or in that way it doesn't mean
2:51:37 God can never do something different in
2:51:39 some way or that God can't can't enter
2:51:43 creation he starts enters creation
2:51:45 repeatedly in Genesis right he walks in
2:51:47 the garden with Adam so he appears to
2:51:49 Abraham so God does that's not what
2:51:52 they're talking about as far as as far
2:51:54 as God changing house the best I could
2:51:57 do in one man one question for mister
2:52:02 good job yes yes the prophet muhammad's
2:52:12 allah wa sallam uses the bible as his
2:52:16 basis to validate his prophethood
2:52:19 especially in the words of Jesus Christ
2:52:22 when Jesus Christ said I'm going to the
2:52:24 Father and our sent you a comforter the
2:52:26 Spirit of Truth teach you treat like one
2:52:32 of your famous apologists and making
2:52:34 that refers to that scripture as the
2:52:37 validation for Prophet Muhammad's
2:52:39 prophethood now what do we make of what
2:52:43 Jesus Christ said emphatically to his
2:52:46 disciples that they should go and wait
2:52:48 upon him in Jerusalem and then the
2:52:52 Spirit will come on them and in the
2:52:53 prophets we witness a spectacle where
2:52:57 the Holy Spirit comes to the disciple as
2:52:59 cloven tongues on fire and we see a
2:53:02 significant transformation from in the
2:53:05 lives of the disciples and from there
2:53:08 even the Roman government could not
2:53:11 resist the power and the demonstration
2:53:14 of the Holy Spirit at work in the
2:53:16 disciples and over the years
2:53:19 Christianity has spread not by sword by
2:53:22 by the demonstration of the love power
2:53:24 of the Holy Spirit how do we reconcile
2:53:27 these demonstrations of the Holy Spirit
2:53:35 just one request we're gonna after this
2:53:38 we're gonna have to sing just two more
2:53:39 questions and try to keep you questions
2:53:41 like like you know as simple as possible
2:53:45 because you know we're trying to take as
2:53:46 much place as I can but you know it's
2:53:48 impossible with you stretching the
2:53:50 questions like that because we have
2:53:50 limited time so okay so there are a few
2:53:53 points the first thing you said it's
2:53:55 about taking the Bible as an authority
2:53:56 yes the Quran says the in GD that told
2:53:59 up but the original one center of Moses
2:54:01 and Jesus and the evidence of that is
2:54:02 chapter 5 verse 46 where it talks about
2:54:05 a failure and by the in the item in the
2:54:06 Maryam and then it goes well yeah metal
2:54:08 indeed women under the Lavi the land
2:54:11 is Alam Talia al Ghul to me says this
2:54:13 meaning it goes back to the previous
2:54:14 passage and the next verse chapter 5
2:54:16 verse 48 says what more Haman and Ali
2:54:18 that the Quran is a guardian over the
2:54:20 Bible yes this book is a guardian over
2:54:21 this
2:54:22 so it's an authority in as much as it
2:54:24 does not contradict the Quran according
2:54:25 to the Quran
2:54:26 now that's point 1 point 2 about
2:54:29 Christianity not being spread by the
2:54:30 sword is a misreading of history
2:54:32 actually if you look at Constantine and
2:54:34 the Theodosian code actually the only
2:54:36 way Johnse spread through the Roman
2:54:38 Empire was through the sword look at the
2:54:41 primary source material but a deviation
2:54:43 code from Philadelphia the audience is
2:54:45 the second he enforced Nicean
2:54:48 trinitarianism by force according to all
2:54:51 of the historians across the whole of
2:54:53 the Roman Empire until the pagan
2:54:54 religions of the Romans were completely
2:54:56 dissipated not to mention of course
2:54:58 colonialism not to mention of course the
2:55:00 Spanish The Economist not to mention of
2:55:03 course one of the biggest one of the
2:55:05 biggest casualties in war in human
2:55:08 history
2:55:08 yes one of the biggest was when the
2:55:10 Spanish Empire and the French Empire and
2:55:13 the British Empire spread it's your
2:55:15 country in Africa it spread it
2:55:18 everywhere
2:55:18 don't tell me wasn't spread by the sword
2:55:22 what are you talking about
2:55:25 the difference between Islam and
2:55:26 Christianity in this regard was a slam
2:55:29 spread organically
2:55:30 whereas Christianity required a man who
2:55:33 was an empire at that time to spread it
2:55:35 forcefully we fought as Muslims the
2:55:38 bigger enemy you were the bigger enemy
2:55:40 fighting the smaller people that's the
2:55:42 difference don't tell me about these
2:55:43 things this is a dog history history
2:55:49 thank you brother knees out for your
2:55:51 answer to your question for dr. wood
2:55:56 dr. wood it's an honor to be here I want
2:55:59 to first thank you speak closer to the
2:56:01 mic place I want to first thank you I
2:56:03 converted to Christianity this year
2:56:05 January 1st and part of it was because
2:56:07 of their answers that you have given me
2:56:09 so thank you I've watched a lot of your
2:56:12 debates with shivir le and others mr.
2:56:15 the job is talking about William Lane
2:56:18 Craig and how respectful they are but I
2:56:20 mean if this doesn't work out maybe you
2:56:22 can do some stand-up comedy but you
2:56:24 asked me you asked somebody asked about
2:56:26 knock is attack so could you please
2:56:27 explain who Melchizedek was in the Old
2:56:29 Testament thank you Oh with Melchizedek
2:56:33 well we're down to one minute now but if
2:56:35 you look at what the author of Hebrews
2:56:37 is doing he's saying that the Jews
2:56:41 already had their own priesthood the the
2:56:46 Levitical priesthood but the Messiah is
2:56:48 going to be from the order of
2:56:49 Melchizedek so he basically says what
2:56:52 are the differences in the descriptions
2:56:54 in scripture he this is a guy who reads
2:56:56 some kind of codes into the Bible right
2:56:58 he's looking for codes in description
2:57:00 they took this very seriously so he says
2:57:02 what's the difference in the description
2:57:04 textually between Melchizedek and Levi
2:57:09 and that's going to tell us something
2:57:11 about the Messiah so he starts doing
2:57:13 this haha well we have a genealogy for
2:57:15 Levi we have none from kissa death right
2:57:18 and so he starts going down the list and
2:57:19 then he draws a meaning out of it he's
2:57:21 not actually saying that he's eternal or
2:57:23 something like that he's saying
2:57:24 according these passages we can learn
2:57:25 something and his conclusion is that the
2:57:27 Messiah is eternal not that not that not
2:57:30 that
2:57:30 Melchizedek is Thank You mr. president
2:57:38 I'm sorry mr. president
2:57:41 mr. president so this is the final
2:57:43 question yes okay of course
2:57:49 okay yeah a question for mohammad hijab
2:57:53 yeah uh you sir have been complaining
2:57:57 that David will mocked Muslims sorry you
2:58:02 have complained that mister would have
2:58:05 mocked Muslims yeah and you have been
2:58:08 mocking him all night
2:58:12 okay that's right
2:58:16 my question goes around to Authority you
2:58:19 have been attacking the authority of
2:58:22 Christians on which authority we base
2:58:25 our faith on Trinity sorry
2:58:34 yes okay and you
2:58:38 seems like you believe in church more
2:58:41 than Christians do and let me tell you
2:58:44 why because you asked for church
2:58:46 authorities George scholars Christians
2:58:50 who have somehow in certain time talk
2:58:54 about the Trinity let me tell you and
2:58:58 teach you something about Christianity
2:59:00 tonight
2:59:04 I'm willing to learn for me number one
2:59:08 is Jesus Christ our authority is the
2:59:13 Bible so when we cite scriptures we're
2:59:19 citing a lot more than Augustine that
2:59:21 you worship okay can you put the cookies
2:59:26 there were dead Genesis 1:26 women can
2:59:31 speak air here right okay so much I
2:59:37 posed a question go ahead yeah this is
2:59:39 126 it says then God said let us make my
2:59:44 kind in our image in our likeness and 27
2:59:49 says so God created mankind in his own
2:59:53 image in the image of God he created
2:59:56 them male and female he created them God
3:00:00 is speaking by himself sir okay he's
3:00:04 blue wrong question and he calls himself
3:00:07 him verse so either you believe in
3:00:11 Genesis you will be Moses which wrote
3:00:14 the Genesis or you don't believe in
3:00:17 you're a bad Muslim
3:00:19 [Music]
3:00:22 and there's the question sorry of your
3:00:26 face I want to understand how that you
3:00:31 claim authority on Muhammad yep
3:00:36 who had multiple works at what Asia I'm
3:00:44 six years old according to others please
3:00:48 settle down
3:00:49 I want to understand I want to
3:00:51 understand excuse me excuse me miss you
3:00:58 either ask a question this is not a
3:00:59 debate you are not debating you know ask
3:01:02 the question you neither have some
3:01:06 questionnaire easily thank you very much
3:01:08 okay
3:01:09 no actually I knew behind my mother to
3:01:13 answer a question actually before before
3:01:17 that happens we have mister Hadj job he
3:01:18 wants to answer the question you know
3:01:19 yeah
3:01:21 why do I'm why why my firm and assertive
3:01:24 with David woods is because he spent 20
3:01:26 years of his life
3:01:27 mocking Muslims and Islam accumulating
3:01:30 more than 15 million 60 million channel
3:01:34 views attacking Muslims in Islam which
3:01:37 has led to brothers and sisters of mine
3:01:39 being attacked on roads in this country
3:01:42 exacerbating Islamophobia this man is
3:01:44 not going to get with nice treatment
3:01:46 from me
3:01:46 he's not gonna get it this guy is not
3:01:49 James White this guy is not William Lane
3:01:52 Craig this guy is not respectable so he
3:01:54 will not be treated with respect
3:01:56 now he now just because your boy was
3:01:59 smashed to use Cubs words
3:02:04 it doesn't mean now that you're gonna
3:02:07 give me a settle down please say yes
3:02:09 now point number two point where point
3:02:13 number two she mentioned many things
3:02:15 multiple wives
3:02:16 look look at the Old Testament please
3:02:18 you said you'll talk about the Old
3:02:19 Testament Abraham had three wives
3:02:21 Solomon had three hundred wives you're
3:02:26 very lucky that is slam CAPTA at four
3:02:28 because if it was in Solomon's time it
3:02:30 would be three hundred now really
3:02:33 untruly now I don't understand why why
3:02:37 you must be very upset with me like this
3:02:39 I mean why were you not upset with David
3:02:41 would when he was mocking the Muslims
3:02:42 for for for ten years why you are a
3:02:46 parent you miss our hypocrite
3:02:48 okay get the next question
3:02:52 [Applause]
3:02:56 I want to end this on a good note so we
3:03:01 have one question no no this side this
3:03:04 side this side this side we're trying to
3:03:07 get him first okay we'll get you up as I
3:03:12 go on would what presented or what
3:03:16 percentage of Christians had memorized
3:03:19 the entire Holy Bible
3:03:23 [Applause]
3:03:33 all the rules and everything this is
3:03:35 David
3:03:39 can you please settle down sir question
3:03:43 what I know is that most of the Muslims
3:03:46 memorize the Quran quickly and do you
3:03:49 know any Muslims any Christians that
3:03:51 memorize the Bible quickly or are any
3:03:54 any percent of them well the the Quran
3:03:59 is designed for an oral culture to be
3:04:01 memorized easily right there are
3:04:12 hundreds of thousands of people who have
3:04:14 memorized dr. Seuss's green eggs and ham
3:04:16 does that make it the Word of God ladies
3:04:19 and gentlemen I'm trying to be
3:04:20 respectful here so that's because these
3:04:22 are young guys here Christian
3:04:24 Christianity the Bible is meant to be a
3:04:27 book that's read right that's the idea
3:04:30 they they they wrote Creed's and you
3:04:32 would memorize Creed's we have some of
3:04:34 them they wrote songs they memorize
3:04:35 songs but the the books of the Bible are
3:04:39 written down to the books and to be read
3:04:42 in public the Quran the Quran is meant
3:04:45 to be is meant to be is meant to be
3:04:47 memorized so there are different kinds
3:04:49 of Scripture why you would say Oh a book
3:04:53 that's more memorize ofwell or something
3:04:55 like that is must be more the Word of
3:04:57 God or something again that would make
3:04:59 green eggs and ham much much more the
3:05:01 Word of God than the Quran because it's
3:05:02 much much easier to understand a little
3:05:07 side note as far as mocking Muslims
3:05:09 because it's been brought up like a
3:05:10 thousand times I haven't I haven't I
3:05:12 haven't responded I mock teachings of
3:05:15 Muhammad right like like dunking flies
3:05:19 and drinks and things like that and if
3:05:22 you say that's not what I read about
3:05:24 mockery in the Muslim sources right I
3:05:26 mean when there was a polytheist there
3:05:28 Abu Bakr said go suck a lot close your
3:05:32 ears if you're a child
3:05:33 he said go suck a lot's clitoris to one
3:05:36 of the polytheists they're mocking the
3:05:38 beliefs of the polytheists over and over
3:05:40 again we find them mocking the beliefs
3:05:42 if mockery is bad
3:05:44 then you've condemned your own God and
3:05:46 your own profit so okay please settle
3:05:49 down
3:05:49 leave please settle down settle down
3:05:53 settle down seriously this is not you
3:05:56 guys claim to be Muslims it's not how
3:05:58 Muslims act this is not how Muslims act
3:06:00 you guys want to represent Islam we have
3:06:02 brother Muhammad a job here he's set up
3:06:04 a very excellent job you basically
3:06:06 undoing everything that he has done
3:06:08 tonight please be respectful and we're
3:06:12 gonna end our Q&A session right here
3:06:13 thank you very much for coming we're
3:06:15 gonna have food in the cafeteria right
3:06:17 across an academic court building
3:06:19 thank you very much for coming New York
3:06:20 College Muslim Student Association
3:06:22 thanks both dr. wood and brother
3:06:24 Muhammad a job thank you so much
3:06:35 [Music]
3:06:45 you