"Proving God" is like "Proving Gravity" (2018-06-18) #

0:00:00 poverty in honor of itself it's not
0:00:03 something which you can empirically see
0:00:05 you can't see it or hear it or feel it
0:00:08 or touch it empiricism
0:00:10 Mellon I'll tell you what you saw the
0:00:13 effects of gravity you didn't see
0:00:15 gravity you see what I'm saying so if I
0:00:18 were to ask you you believe in gravity
0:00:21 but you don't but you have no evidence
0:00:23 directly of its existence all you have
0:00:25 is evidences of the effects of gravity
0:00:28 gravity if I say to you look gravity is
0:00:30 actually an angel wait a minute what did
0:00:36 you say there Francis you look gravity
0:00:39 is not actually gravity gravity is a
0:00:42 range of angels drilling down objects on
0:00:48 celestial bodies like earth or planets
0:00:50 planetary bodies that's what gravity is
0:00:52 all in the cosmos
0:00:53 so gravity is in fact angels I'm not
0:00:57 gonna call it gravity anymore I'm going
0:00:59 to call it the angels that pull down
0:01:01 objects on planets I have as much of a
0:01:05 truth claim a legitimate truth claim as
0:01:07 the scientist who's referring to gravity
0:01:10 as gravity the only difference is a
0:01:12 semantical difference yeah but you're
0:01:14 both wrong well both of us no no no I'm
0:01:19 not saying look it we're not both wrong
0:01:24 both of us let me tell you why we don't
0:01:27 yes sorry go ahead by the way that I
0:01:34 believe in angels but I'm just saying no
0:01:36 no angels there's no angel of gravity in
0:01:38 this lamp I'm just saying that I'm
0:01:39 giving you just an example right if I if
0:01:41 I said if and this is a conditional so
0:01:44 what I'm saying to you is for you to say
0:01:47 it's both from you could say is this
0:01:48 unfalsifiable yeah unfalsifiable right
0:01:52 to take Pope alien kind of logical
0:01:54 understanding is those unfalsifiable
0:01:56 just because something is unfalsifiable
0:01:58 it doesn't mean it's wrong sure but
0:02:01 there's no way really
0:02:02 no no science we're not no police your
0:02:05 faith nobody else which is I'm not
0:02:07 saying that
0:02:08 I'm not and I'm not saying that I am NOT
0:02:11 making that I'm not working that point
0:02:13 bro I'll show them again sorry Darren
0:02:16 yeah I'm not saying it's wrong what I'm
0:02:18 saying is that I'm just making it I'm
0:02:22 not talking about God now I thought it's
0:02:23 a confusing discussion no no we're not
0:02:26 not whenever you see we just got that
0:02:27 Muslim it doesn't mean I'm always going
0:02:28 to be talking about God but I can't have
0:02:30 discussions and other things as well
0:02:31 okay I can well I was while I was saying
0:02:35 - is this the point I was making to you
0:02:37 an overarching point was that just
0:02:39 because something is given as scientific
0:02:42 and I think you agree with this right
0:02:43 just because something has given a
0:02:44 scientific label so I was giving an
0:02:46 example of gravity gravity is a pulling
0:02:48 force okay or pushing force or whatever
0:02:52 you want to call it depending on what
0:02:53 theory you want to go with right now
0:02:56 here's the thing the thing of gravity
0:02:58 itself we said can't be empirically
0:03:00 justified the effects of gravity is
0:03:03 obviously so my point was that if I were
0:03:05 followed to a place toward gravity with
0:03:07 gremlins or angels or whatever I'd have
0:03:11 as much right to do that from a
0:03:12 philosophical perspective as a scientist
0:03:22 perfect
0:03:26 would you accept we are excellent not
0:03:28 food I I would I would say no problem
0:03:31 that's very nice but then you've given
0:03:34 us a nice premise to start off our
0:03:35 discussion I'll see a logical discussion
0:03:37 because I know you all have to took a
0:03:39 while good let me know what's your name
0:03:42 again I forgot my Jordan Jordan nice to
0:03:44 meet you man are you a religious person
0:03:46 or more scientific okay so it's
0:03:50 perfectly said that right
0:03:51 I'm happy you said this because you said
0:03:54 that we can understand something through
0:03:56 its effects you know there's a beautiful
0:03:59 interesting quote of the Arabs one our
0:04:02 man he said advisor to tadoule Allah is
0:04:07 said that the the entrance all the you
0:04:14 can say the entrails of the camel is the
0:04:18 camera was there yes yeah you know your
0:04:23 property you know whatever it is uh yeah
0:04:27 I'll buy to the lobby so hey the point
0:04:29 is the effects of something gives us
0:04:31 reason to believe of something gravity
0:04:34 is a perfect example of that you've
0:04:35 never seen gravity you've never heard
0:04:37 gravity empirically you can't
0:04:39 substantiate gravity you can only see
0:04:41 the effects of gravity and I'll say to
0:04:42 you the same thing about the the
0:04:43 universe now you might have never seen
0:04:50 the clothes of the universe we've never
0:04:53 seen the cause of the universe but we've
0:04:55 seen the effects of it now the point is
0:04:58 since we've seen the effect of it can we
0:05:00 apply the same logic to the universe as
0:05:02 we apply to gravity
0:05:04 remember when I asked you about gravity
0:05:06 the first thing you did was you grab
0:05:07 your bottle and you dropped it you
0:05:08 showed me that look these are the
0:05:09 effects of gravity now look I'm saying
0:05:11 the same thing about the universe the
0:05:13 effects of the universe or the result of
0:05:17 a universe is that we have a finely
0:05:19 tuned system and why they I mean and not
0:05:24 an aesthetically pleasing I'm talking
0:05:26 about a universe which allows for any
0:05:29 kind of life to exist
0:05:30 that's a finely tuned universe with
0:05:33 systems motions consistencies colony
0:05:40 synchronization a life time space 3d all
0:05:45 of that at the same time halos
0:05:54 isn't is another way of saying
0:05:57 randomness and randomness doesn't exist
0:06:01 randomness is a word human beings use to
0:06:07 describe that which they don't
0:06:08 understand so here just because and
0:06:13 that's this is called the argument from
0:06:15 ignorance it's a very classical logical
0:06:18 fallacy just because you don't
0:06:18 understand something you don't assign
0:06:21 the black hole you don't understand the
0:06:23 problem of evil it doesn't mean that
0:06:25 this result is that this thing is
0:06:27 falsified no that's the gap of the god
0:06:34 of the gaps argument but you can say the
0:06:36 same thing of science you have the
0:06:38 science of the gaps removed to say yeah
0:06:40 so the point I'm making dick in the step
0:06:42 back here the question is we have the
0:06:45 effect which is the universe what is the
0:06:47 cause of this universe if we agree with
0:06:54 if we if we agree with a cause and
0:06:57 effect the premise so if we choose one
0:07:05 of them that you're convinced on fire
0:07:14 the Big Bang
0:07:18 I mean I will say I don't know what
0:07:20 caused it universe and I don't know if I
0:07:24 could even comprehend it how do you know
0:07:28 that gravity is either a pulling or
0:07:32 pushing force how do you know that
0:07:33 because the two series that we have
0:07:35 really Newtonian / Einstein Yin is
0:07:38 either it's going to be a pulling force
0:07:39 or pushing force I mean that's the two
0:07:41 options you have if it's not really that
0:07:44 difficult how do you know that gravity
0:07:47 is either a pulling force or a pushing
0:07:48 for another so if I have this thing here
0:07:57 if you have that it's going to go down
0:07:59 it's going to go from an elevated as
0:08:00 ascension position to a descended
0:08:03 position or a declined position it's not
0:08:06 correct and that down downward motion
0:08:11 suggests either something is pushing or
0:08:13 something is pulling isn't that right I
0:08:15 mean I know physics is much more
0:08:16 complicated and I'm not a physicist but
0:08:19 yeah but it's logical
0:08:23 it's relatively a because of the
0:08:27 attraction of math no problem
0:08:29 I I'm saying how do we come to a
0:08:31 conclusion that is either one of those
0:08:32 two things but you're using a kind of
0:08:39 reductionism physics and logic are
0:08:40 inextricably linked physics because the
0:08:44 language of physics is mathematics at
0:08:46 the end of the day geometry is part of
0:08:48 mass and logic is part of like geometry
0:08:51 is logical right so from that
0:08:53 perspective if we're talking about
0:08:56 gravity we're talking something pulling
0:08:58 something pushing something compressing
0:09:00 something like this right now why did we
0:09:02 come to that conclusion we came to that
0:09:04 conclusion with a deduction a kind of
0:09:07 inference to the best sex relation we
0:09:09 say okay well look if it's coming down
0:09:11 either something is pushing it well
0:09:13 something is pulling it now I want you
0:09:15 to apply the same exact logic because
0:09:17 you're 100% sure and I'm 100% sure that
0:09:19 gravity exists I'm not most of your
0:09:23 hundred central you know okay maybe not
0:09:25 yourself but that there is a force
0:09:27 that's pulling or pushing or creating
0:09:29 this kind of movement okay and that they
0:09:31 call it in the van in the vernacular the
0:09:32 scientific vernacular gravity let's
0:09:35 apply the same logic to the universe so
0:09:39 we have
0:09:47 well no look me oh I can conclude that
0:09:51 my [ __ ] drop I'm not really trying to
0:09:54 make analogies with their I'm just
0:09:55 trying to great we make decisions on a
0:10:00 daily basis as to what is what so in
0:10:02 other words why we believe a certain
0:10:04 thing no but not just your - with that
0:10:07 but we make deductions on inferences on
0:10:10 a daily basis right physicists do the
0:10:12 same things logicians do the same things
0:10:14 that mathematicians do the same thing
0:10:15 everyone does in now I'm saying is that
0:10:17 the same ways we've come to inferences
0:10:20 about gravity we can do the same thing
0:10:21 about the universe it's not that
0:10:22 difficult just because there is a
0:10:24 narrative now and I'm gonna use the word
0:10:27 but I suppose colonial narrative yeah
0:10:32 yeah it is a post-colonial narrative
0:10:35 what is a Wilson that not my opinion so
0:10:38 what's to notice it right opposed to
0:10:39 lighten my narrative yeah what which is
0:10:43 which is a postmodern narrative in many
0:10:45 ways as well which is pushing us to
0:10:47 believe in that atheism there's some
0:10:50 kind of alternative see a theistic
0:10:52 explanation the big bang or saying that
0:11:24 it started
0:11:27 spread out think they can think just
0:11:31 like just like with them like you said
0:11:32 with a cop and we're looking at that
0:11:34 that's that everybody we have the
0:11:37 effects of the cause as well
0:11:47 so yep yep they can say we think because
0:11:52 of this evidence because of this data
0:11:56 that we've collected yes the universe
0:11:58 was likely to start this long ago
0:12:05 from here and it started from one point
0:12:08 like what my premise is today yeah yeah
0:12:15 sorry that that is a lot closer to
0:12:17 anything no no no I'm a creationist
0:12:23 there is a hell of a lot more of an idea
0:12:26 than Cameron obtained
0:12:33 something that's almost like a like a
0:12:36 myth I promise
0:12:37 okay well that's interesting you either
0:12:39 say New Atheists
0:12:40 dargon right which maybe you've been
0:12:42 affected by because of primary or
0:12:44 secondary socialization no problem
0:12:46 but while stem assiduous we'll come to
0:13:00 that but what I was going to say was
0:13:01 that look
0:13:01 my premise today is that God is as
0:13:05 feasible as gravity that's my premise
0:13:08 right ya know what I'm saying to you is
0:13:12 that we believe in gravity because we
0:13:14 see the effects of gravity we believe in
0:13:16 God because one of the reasons not good
0:13:18 the primary reason there are other
0:13:20 reasons but one of the reasons from not
0:13:22 only a sense datum perspective like
0:13:24 inference and using empiricism and
0:13:26 cause-and-effect but another perspective
0:13:29 which is in the deduction is perspective
0:13:30 we can believe in God as a result of the
0:13:34 effects of God now you don't need use
0:13:36 the word God yeah yeah well I'm not
0:13:39 witness not use the word God and entity
0:13:42 right an entity that created the
0:13:45 universe is sustaining the universe
0:13:46 maintaining the universe cetera
0:13:50 let's say the universe what is so what
0:13:57 is an effect of
0:13:59 like an example
0:14:02 now what I'm saying is look like the
0:14:04 things that the universe exhibits so the
0:14:06 universe exhibits order law and order oh
0:14:10 really yeah
0:14:11 because there are lives lost physics
0:14:23 there's gravitational constant says
0:14:26 little there's lots of things right one
0:14:27 thing not we do know look we know
0:14:32 gravity or through its effects right
0:14:34 well you're confident and so the
0:14:36 physicists to say that gravity exists
0:14:38 now the reason why is because we see the
0:14:39 effects now I'm saying is the same thing
0:14:41 we look at the things that the universe
0:14:42 exhibits universe exhibits order law
0:14:45 universe exhibits sophistication
0:14:48 complication now the same thing I'll say
0:14:50 to you we've used the effects of
0:14:53 something to kind of infer the course
0:14:55 same thing we could say about the
0:14:56 universe the fact that there is a
0:14:59 creation sophisticated creation or let's
0:15:01 not even use the word creation let's use
0:15:02 the word sophisticated entity right yeah
0:15:05 we did jump sorry I apologize
0:15:06 there's something which is sophisticated
0:15:08 it's an entity in place the fact that
0:15:10 that exists may suggest may suggest yeah
0:15:15 or should suggest from an inference
0:15:17 perspective that there was a cause which
0:15:20 caused that into being now what is that
0:15:23 cause that's when we start talking about
0:15:25 the attributes of the course
0:15:26 does it have intelligence does it have
0:15:28 knowledge because I have the power into
0:15:30 creative capacity to put the universe
0:15:32 into being because of course because it
0:15:36 causes the fine
0:15:39 because the course is defined as
0:15:41 something which brings rise to phenomena
0:15:45 is it comprehendible was the course of
0:15:49 the course that was that we're talking
0:15:50 about the yes can you comprehend it
0:15:56 weird some ways of this we know can you
0:15:59 comprendo right now no but why I'm
0:16:08 saying to you is you know grant you know
0:16:11 gravity through his effects why can't we
0:16:13 use the same principle was the universe
0:16:23 why it's a part of the universe we can
0:16:26 use the analogy of gravity to look at
0:16:28 like how we understand
0:16:36 my father-in-law ran eight
0:16:41 a conclusion that we came to with
0:16:43 gravity is there's something that we
0:16:44 don't know we know in effect but we
0:16:47 don't know that so it is like a leap of
0:16:51 faith to say when we're looking at the
0:16:54 universe to find the same thing and
0:16:55 there's a little face to say that
0:16:56 gravity exists it's the same it's the
0:16:59 same leap of faith when you say gravity
0:17:01 exists isn't it
0:17:02 well you believe you have you ever
0:17:03 doubted gravity but I can say gravity
0:17:06 exists and also say I don't understand
0:17:08 yeah I think yeah no that's no problem
0:17:10 now that's a fair point but that is
0:17:12 called the fallacy of incredulity you
0:17:16 say something is so amazing the fallacy
0:17:22 of incredulity is in a form of a logical
0:17:23 fallacy which is it's applicable in some
0:17:25 cases something is so complicated that I
0:17:27 just don't get it but just because you
0:17:30 don't understand it doesn't mean it's
0:17:31 not true we don't need to know the
0:17:40 intricacies we know on a fundamental
0:17:41 level that is some kind of force
0:17:51 like this I like this discussion I mean
0:17:56 I like it yeah for sure I think that
0:18:09 you're right they're not unimportant
0:18:10 details for sure and I think there's a
0:18:12 lot of disagreement here in what we're
0:18:15 saying and I think what we need to do I
0:18:17 want to just I swear to god I'm not
0:18:19 doing this on purpose we've had that
0:18:20 discussion cause and effect I just wanna
0:18:22 say one more thing completely off topic
0:18:24 wait a minute why am i changing topic
0:18:27 one more thing if you want to say
0:18:28 something before you go [ __ ] man I don't
0:18:32 mind but I just want to say one more
0:18:33 thing okay I want to ask you I want to
0:18:35 throw out there man
0:18:36 I do I want to really throw it out there
0:18:38 just one thing we talked about cause and
0:18:39 effect whatever it's not you've heard my
0:18:42 argument you know it I don't think I you
0:18:43 need to hear more I want ask your
0:18:45 question and I'm gonna do this with
0:18:47 people like yourself because I think
0:18:48 it's really important now so I'm gonna
0:18:51 touch you guys such a lot of people all
0:18:52 right I'll ask you a question what's
0:18:56 your purpose of life now we've done it
0:19:01 we've done it we've done the topic now
0:19:02 we're going to start with regurgitating
0:19:04 information or repeating ourselves so
0:19:06 that's done let people think about that
0:19:08 second question what's your purpose of
0:19:10 life why is the purpose of life
0:19:13 would you be willing to tell us yours
0:19:15 first yeah no problem
0:19:17 do you know what I've been reading
0:19:19 somehow yes of course trainers his
0:19:26 purpose of life is to wait wait wait so
0:19:28 they're gone everything is very nice as
0:19:31 a beverage
0:19:31 who's more complex in sauce
0:19:41 okay
0:20:02 so that's what he's asking everything
0:20:05 you're wearing has a purpose we have a
0:20:08 I like to think I'm more complicated
0:20:11 than a parent you have a same flip it's
0:20:17 good that you set objective while his
0:20:28 question was a very literal one because
0:20:29 he didn't ask about just your publisher
0:20:32 he said objective purpose is there's no
0:20:34 reason for us to be here in the world
0:20:40 yeah what's the what's the real what is
0:20:42 the reason for even being what do you
0:20:46 think the answer is
0:20:57 okay what do you think that's good okay
0:21:01 but why are human beings here what