Miracles in Christianity & Islam with Shaykh Hamza Karamali (2022-03-21) ​

0:00:04 hello everyone and welcome to blogging
0:00:06 theology today i'm delighted to talk
0:00:08 again to shake hamza karamali you are
0:00:11 most welcome sir
0:00:13 thank you so much for having me again
0:00:14 paul you're most welcome now for those
0:00:17 who don't know hamza is the founder of
0:00:19 basira education where he trains parents
0:00:22 teachers scholars in high schools
0:00:24 weekend religious schools and a variety
0:00:26 of other educational institutions how to
0:00:29 show their students why islam is true
0:00:33 he's developed a textbook an online
0:00:35 teacher's portal and is on a mission to
0:00:38 train ten thousand teachers
0:00:41 you can follow him on his social media
0:00:43 platforms to learn about the details of
0:00:45 this project which will be will be
0:00:47 released very soon in the month of
0:00:50 ramadan
0:00:52 today hamza will be speaking about
0:00:54 miracles in christianity and islam which
0:00:58 lies at the core of his work on religion
0:01:01 and science from an islamic perspective
0:01:04 and i think maybe a good starting point
0:01:06 for our discussion today would be jesus
0:01:10 because he's really the common figure in
0:01:12 christianity and islam and in religions
0:01:15 science debates in the western tradition
0:01:18 which go all the way back we should go
0:01:20 back to the history of the christian
0:01:22 church
0:01:23 so perhaps hamza you can just introduce
0:01:26 us to this subject
0:01:28 thank you for your introduction paul um
0:01:31 so
0:01:32 yeah so i did some before i came i
0:01:34 reviewed
0:01:36 the gospel of john
0:01:38 which i thought would be appropriate
0:01:39 starting point it's the most uh
0:01:42 i guess allegedly trinitarian of all the
0:01:44 gospels and so i went through the signs
0:01:46 that are mentioned there and the word
0:01:48 signs is important because
0:01:50 miracles in both christianity and islam
0:01:53 are described as being signs there's a
0:01:56 difference on on what exactly they're
0:01:58 signs of but they're both signs quran 2
0:02:01 allah describes them as signs
0:02:04 particularly in reference to jesus so in
0:02:06 uh so we'll take just i went through the
0:02:08 the signs and the gospel of john so he
0:02:11 starts off the first sign in in the in
0:02:13 the gospel is that he turned wine into
0:02:15 water and jars of wine into water that's
0:02:17 one of the miracles that he did that was
0:02:19 a sign absolutely it was water into wine
0:02:22 i think it was the other way around
0:02:23 wasn't it yeah
0:02:26 yeah
0:02:28 yeah my islamic bias
0:02:29 Laughter
0:02:32 so um
0:02:34 um so he um healed the son of a royal
0:02:38 official he healed a paralytic who'd
0:02:40 been um
0:02:42 paralyzed for 38 years he multiplied
0:02:45 food miraculously fed 5 000 people he
0:02:48 walked on water
0:02:50 he healed somebody who was blind from
0:02:51 birth
0:02:53 and
0:02:54 there's the resurrection
0:02:55 of lazarus and
0:02:57 there's his own resurrection from the
0:02:59 dead as well which he hinted at earlier
0:03:02 so these are some of the miraculous
0:03:04 signs in the gospel of john um
0:03:07 in the quran there's two ver two verses
0:03:11 um that
0:03:12 where he talks about his signs and it's
0:03:14 interesting the word is also sign so
0:03:16 allah ta'ala in
0:03:18 in the surat al-imran chapter 3
0:03:21 verse 49 he says that jesus the allah he
0:03:25 sent jesus as a rasul as a messenger to
0:03:29 the israelites
0:03:30 and that um
0:03:33 and and he said to them that i've come
0:03:35 to you with the ayat india
0:03:38 with a sign from your lord and then he
0:03:40 mentions a number of signs the first
0:03:42 sign he talks about the famous sign of
0:03:44 the clay bird that he fashioned and he
0:03:47 breathed life into it's not found in the
0:03:49 canonical gospels but there's other
0:03:51 infancy gospels which which mentioned
0:03:52 that um he talked about it mentioned
0:03:55 that i
0:03:56 um i um so there's one thing that's
0:03:59 relevant here which he says the quran so
0:04:01 the quran it is conscious of the way
0:04:04 that these
0:04:05 signs and other
0:04:08 events from the life of jesus are
0:04:09 described in the judeo-christian milia
0:04:12 that was
0:04:13 that was there in in in which the the
0:04:17 prophet muhammad sallallahu alaihi spoke
0:04:19 and so there's there's a
0:04:20 there's a reference repeatedly to the
0:04:23 fact that these signs they all happen
0:04:24 with the permission of allah with the
0:04:27 permission of god he says that i
0:04:30 cure
0:04:31 the
0:04:32 somebody who's
0:04:34 blind born blind just like in in the
0:04:36 gospel like i cure those who are born
0:04:39 blind
0:04:40 and uh the lepers which is not in the
0:04:43 gospel of john but in
0:04:44 other other some of the other gospels i
0:04:46 cure the lepers and i bring the dead
0:04:49 back to life the islam with the
0:04:52 permission of god
0:04:53 and then there's this other miracle
0:04:55 which he talks about he says that i tell
0:04:58 you what you eat and what you store up
0:05:01 in your houses i don't think this is in
0:05:02 the canonical gospels i haven't really
0:05:04 seen um
0:05:05 where uh where that would be
0:05:08 but it was recognized by the jews and
0:05:10 the christians to whom um the quran was
0:05:12 speaking
0:05:13 um so it was there and uh and so these
0:05:17 are two
0:05:18 uh you know similar miracles both
0:05:20 described as signs
0:05:22 and they are um so that's that's how
0:05:25 that's how um the signs of jesus
0:05:28 are described now with science with the
0:05:30 rise of modern science um the
0:05:33 uh miracles came to be
0:05:36 seen as
0:05:38 unacceptable
0:05:40 violations of the laws of nature
0:05:42 and
0:05:43 based on a worldview where people would
0:05:47 explain
0:05:48 things in the universe the events in the
0:05:51 universe as acts of god
0:05:54 with
0:05:55 through supernatural explanations rather
0:05:57 than through natural explanations so i
0:05:59 guess both of these narratives would be
0:06:03 they came to be problematized so that's
0:06:05 the
0:06:06 i think that's a good starting point for
0:06:08 our discussion and and of course um
0:06:11 after the enlightenment in in europe uh
0:06:14 which affected christians as much as
0:06:15 anyone else uh but many became much more
0:06:18 liberal uh get liberal christians
0:06:20 liberal christianity and theologians
0:06:22 started to see these uh miraculous uh
0:06:24 stories in the gospels as more
0:06:26 metaphorical perhaps or more symbolic or
0:06:29 just simply unhistorical and just
0:06:31 dismissed as mere superstition but the
0:06:33 more sophisticated ones saw them as
0:06:35 metaphors for for god's generosity or
0:06:38 inclusivity and and so on so there's
0:06:40 been a um
0:06:42 a complicated reaction from christians
0:06:43 some have maintained that these stories
0:06:45 are literally historical happened as is
0:06:48 in the gospels others um
0:06:51 have seen them as not historical as more
0:06:53 symbolic or metaphorical as i say so
0:06:56 it's been a complex reaction to the rise
0:06:58 of rationalism
0:06:59 and secularism
0:07:01 from the enlightenment um right and
0:07:04 that's still the case today in in the
0:07:05 churches uh that there's
0:07:07 differences of opinion amongst
0:07:09 christians um at the highest levels even
0:07:12 and so the resurrection of jesus some
0:07:14 will see that as a as a figure of speech
0:07:16 or metaphor rather than a bodily
0:07:17 resurrection for example
0:07:19 um
0:07:20 so yeah anyway that's the digression but
0:07:22 so christianity and islam agree that
0:07:24 jesus uh did miracles those that agreed
0:07:26 that they did he did actually do them
0:07:28 and this seems to place both of them at
0:07:31 odds with modern science how would you
0:07:34 characterize the differences between the
0:07:36 two religions
0:07:38 so um
0:07:39 yeah so
0:07:40 i i i think that
0:07:42 um so in in many ways the effect of the
0:07:46 there were similar effects um not
0:07:48 completely like the christians not to
0:07:50 the same degree but there were some
0:07:52 effects similar effects amongst the
0:07:54 muslims too there was a a movement
0:07:56 during a period of colonialism about the
0:07:58 reinterpretation of miracles um you know
0:08:01 because they were seen as unscientific
0:08:03 and the prophet salallahu was presented
0:08:05 as somebody of uh as a genius moral
0:08:07 character and his miracles were
0:08:10 de-emphasized
0:08:12 but i think i don't think it went to the
0:08:14 same degree that that you that you
0:08:17 described and i think that
0:08:18 one of the reasons for that is that
0:08:20 christians they started off
0:08:23 they started off
0:08:25 they didn't start off where the muslims
0:08:27 started off so
0:08:28 in christianity uh
0:08:30 the there's a common in historically in
0:08:33 the western tradition miracles have been
0:08:36 seen as proof of
0:08:38 divinity so the resurrection is proof
0:08:41 that jesus is god the other miracles
0:08:43 that he did were proof that jesus is god
0:08:46 because he was now there's there's some
0:08:48 uh
0:08:49 you know inconsistency in this account
0:08:52 within the within the gospels they might
0:08:54 not fit with this but that's
0:08:56 um i think generally characteristic of
0:08:58 christianity that the positions that
0:09:00 they hold doctrinally don't always
0:09:03 accord with what's found in um
0:09:06 in in scripture
0:09:08 um and i want to i want to i i'll come
0:09:11 back for a second but but it's it's
0:09:14 commonly held that the fact that jesus
0:09:17 did miracles is evidence that he has got
0:09:19 it that he's god because
0:09:21 only god has the power to overcome the
0:09:24 laws of nature
0:09:25 so so that's that's uh that's how
0:09:29 miracles um one way in which miracles
0:09:32 have been viewed for in for muslims
0:09:35 miracles
0:09:36 are all acts of god they're signs that
0:09:39 give that are given to human beings
0:09:42 um as evidence that they are really
0:09:44 speaking on behalf of god that god god
0:09:48 is verifying that they are
0:09:50 uh receiving inspiration from him that
0:09:52 they're not imposters this found in the
0:09:54 old testament as well i think it's found
0:09:56 in the gospels too um many of the
0:09:58 gospels this uh this sentiment is found
0:10:00 i was just
0:10:01 going through the gospel of john and
0:10:03 it said that after one of the signs that
0:10:06 jesus performed they the israelites they
0:10:08 said that this is indeed the prophet of
0:10:10 god
0:10:11 um who has come into the world right um
0:10:15 so uh
0:10:16 so i think that the the starting point
0:10:19 for
0:10:20 christianity is not the pure
0:10:24 the hate of islam so this so for the
0:10:27 muslims
0:10:28 everything in the universe
0:10:30 is an act of god um
0:10:33 but uh but i think that at the trinity
0:10:35 it kind of um
0:10:37 it mars the ability of us to view the
0:10:41 world as a as being completely an act of
0:10:44 god because it raises something that is
0:10:46 created to the level of the divine and
0:10:48 in doing that it brings
0:10:50 brings the divine down hmm
0:10:54 and essentially even in the new
0:10:55 testament as we have it now there are
0:10:57 passages which
0:10:58 uh jah which don't agree perhaps with
0:11:01 the uh the traditional christian view of
0:11:04 jesus being divine because he does
0:11:07 miracles and uh a very striking passage
0:11:10 in that regard is found in the acts of
0:11:11 the apostles where peter this is the
0:11:15 luke's uh history of the early church
0:11:17 and there's a very interesting statement
0:11:20 attributed to the apostle peter the
0:11:22 prince of the apostles now this is after
0:11:24 he says this after jesus ascended into
0:11:26 heaven uh after the coming of the holy
0:11:29 spirit in acts chapter two so he now
0:11:32 knows who jesus is no more doubting no
0:11:35 more who are you you know who do you say
0:11:37 i am he now knows and he's sent out to
0:11:39 preach to the israelites who jesus is
0:11:42 and there's a statement attributed to
0:11:44 him in acts chapter 2 which speaks
0:11:45 directly to the issues you raised and i
0:11:47 don't know peter said this or not but
0:11:48 this is what the bible says according to
0:11:51 the passage peter says you that are
0:11:54 israelites listen to what i have to say
0:11:58 jesus of nazareth a man attested to you
0:12:01 by god with deeds of power wonders and
0:12:05 signs that god did through him among you
0:12:08 as you yourselves know
0:12:11 this man and he goes on to talk about
0:12:13 events so
0:12:14 here
0:12:16 jesus is not god he is not the second
0:12:18 person of the trinity he is not a divine
0:12:21 being because he does miracles is the
0:12:23 other way around actually god works
0:12:25 through him and this is actually almost
0:12:28 islamic as an islamic paradigm of the
0:12:30 relationship between jesus as miracle
0:12:32 worker and god jesus didn't do then god
0:12:35 worked through jesus and this is a
0:12:37 prophetic paradigm we see all across the
0:12:39 old testament with the old testament
0:12:41 prophets elisha and elijah
0:12:43 who also rose the dead and did
0:12:45 miraculous nature miracles and and other
0:12:48 miracles uh um so that's fascinating the
0:12:50 beginning of the the church
0:12:53 jesus was proclaimed as a miracle worker
0:12:55 by the power and the permission of god
0:12:57 which coincidentally is exactly i think
0:13:00 what the quran says isn't that ironic
0:13:03 yeah so there's there's uh so just a
0:13:06 further down in the same chapter
0:13:08 Music
0:13:10 there's a there's a description there's
0:13:12 a description of a dialogue that took
0:13:14 place between the prophets allah and the
0:13:15 christians in the arabian peninsula and
0:13:18 they argued that jesus is god
0:13:22 uh jesus is the son of god because he
0:13:24 had a mother and he didn't have a father
0:13:26 and um in a famous verse um and uh the
0:13:30 prophet saws was inspired by allah to
0:13:33 that jesus
0:13:35 is the example the description of jesus
0:13:38 is like the description of adam and he
0:13:41 created so adam was didn't have a father
0:13:43 or a mother
0:13:45 yet
0:13:47 you don't say that he is divine so and
0:13:50 he's even more miraculous than jesus
0:13:53 um so the i think that
0:13:56 there's a one of the things that i like
0:13:57 to take from here is that when
0:14:00 when when i as a muslim when i come to
0:14:02 the bible um i don't come to it in the
0:14:05 same way that a secular historian would
0:14:08 come to it so secular historian um i
0:14:10 would agree with the secular historian
0:14:12 the bible has been tampered with and
0:14:14 it's been altered but i would disagree
0:14:17 with him because the secular historian
0:14:19 would deny the fact that it had any kind
0:14:22 of a divine origin he would deny the
0:14:24 divine altogether and dismiss miracles
0:14:27 as as
0:14:28 as historically
0:14:30 um untrue
0:14:32 um but that's not what i would do right
0:14:34 so i would i would i would say that that
0:14:36 there is a divine origin but there's
0:14:38 vena tampering and so i would i would
0:14:40 fit in somewhere in the middle between
0:14:44 uh between between the between the chris
0:14:46 between christianity and between the
0:14:48 modern yeah
0:14:50 you touch briefly on the the differences
0:14:52 between um islam and christianity when
0:14:54 it comes to the role of miracles and
0:14:56 their evidential role and value for
0:14:58 belief but
0:15:00 what leads to this difference is it just
0:15:01 scriptural or is it philosophical as
0:15:03 well
0:15:05 i think it's both and i think the
0:15:06 trinity lies at the center of it
0:15:08 so there's a
0:15:10 so there's a philosophical difference so
0:15:11 the philosophical difference is that
0:15:15 for
0:15:16 in the quran allah subhanahu wa
0:15:17 describes himself as the one who is
0:15:20 acting in the world he's the one who is
0:15:22 doing everything he's the one who sends
0:15:24 down the rain he's the one who makes the
0:15:26 clouds move he's the one who gives life
0:15:29 he's the one who gives death he's the
0:15:31 one who cures somebody when they when
0:15:32 they become ill he's the one who gives
0:15:35 to gives food he's the one who gives a
0:15:36 drink and so everything in the world is
0:15:39 happening
0:15:40 through the direct action of god and
0:15:43 it's based on the argument from
0:15:44 contingency which we talked about in the
0:15:46 last episode the the way philosophically
0:15:48 the way that this goes is that
0:15:50 everything in the universe needs
0:15:51 something to make it the way that it is
0:15:53 so when i look at the when i look at the
0:15:56 shining of the sun i say what made it
0:15:58 shine when i when the wind blows i say
0:16:00 what made the wind blow and what made it
0:16:02 blow in this way and then i search for
0:16:04 explanations because i see that the
0:16:06 things in the universe they need
0:16:08 something
0:16:09 outside of them to make them the way
0:16:11 that they are
0:16:12 what a
0:16:14 what the the fallacy of materialism is
0:16:17 that we ascribe
0:16:20 actual independent causation to other
0:16:22 things in the universe so we'd say that
0:16:24 the shining of the sun is because of
0:16:26 nuclear fusion we say the blowing of the
0:16:27 wind is because of differences in air
0:16:29 pressures but then that explanation
0:16:32 itself is
0:16:33 also in need of another explanation it's
0:16:36 contingent and so we so what science
0:16:39 will do it's a never-ending quest for
0:16:42 the uh you know for uh explaining
0:16:45 contingent things dependent things with
0:16:47 other contingent things dependent things
0:16:50 and what the quran would argue is that
0:16:53 is that there is that no contingent
0:16:56 thing can really explain anything else
0:16:59 and it's like a line of people who are
0:17:01 leaning on each other and a long line of
0:17:04 people if they're not on the ground it
0:17:05 means that right at the end there's
0:17:06 something someone who's holding them all
0:17:08 up and that's a necessary being that's
0:17:11 god who's holding everything who's
0:17:12 making everything in the universe happen
0:17:14 so when i when i uh so when i do science
0:17:18 as a as a scientist as a muslim
0:17:20 scientist
0:17:21 i
0:17:21 see what i see is not the same as what a
0:17:25 materialist scientist would see what i
0:17:28 see is i see
0:17:30 relationships i see relationships that
0:17:32 god has placed in the universe that
0:17:35 i see regularities with which god acts
0:17:38 in the universe
0:17:39 a scientist sees necessary a material
0:17:42 scientist will see necessary cause and
0:17:45 effect relationships that are
0:17:47 inviolable they cannot be broken so
0:17:50 materialists will say that miracles are
0:17:53 impossible because these are necessary
0:17:56 relationships i'll say that the
0:17:59 relationships are there but they're not
0:18:01 necessary because i can use my mind you
0:18:03 usually just use the argument from
0:18:04 contingency to see that they all depend
0:18:07 on a necessary being their patterns in
0:18:09 that allah has placed in the universe
0:18:12 and so miracles are indeed possible
0:18:14 and when miracles happen there is an
0:18:18 interruption of a regular association
0:18:21 that god has placed in the universe so
0:18:24 this is these are two there's your two
0:18:27 kinds of perspectives there's a
0:18:28 materialist perspective and there's the
0:18:30 quranic perspective
0:18:32 christianity lies somewhere in the
0:18:34 middle so what what christians when they
0:18:37 attributed divinity to jesus
0:18:40 and even though jesus is a contingent
0:18:43 thing he's dependent and the quran says
0:18:45 that quran
0:18:54 says so
0:18:56 they to the christians to whom the
0:18:59 the quran was speaking some of them they
0:19:01 claimed that that mary was the mother of
0:19:03 god and she was divine as well um so the
0:19:06 quran says that
0:19:08 jesus son of mary and mary the most that
0:19:12 jesus was was a messenger and many other
0:19:14 messengers have died and gone before him
0:19:17 and the most that his mother was the
0:19:19 virgin mary was a great saint and then
0:19:23 it gives an argument it says
0:19:26 they used to eat food they're dependent
0:19:28 they're needy they need somebody to
0:19:30 fulfill their needs you should be able
0:19:31 to see that they need something else and
0:19:34 so
0:19:34 as long as something needs something
0:19:36 else it cannot be
0:19:39 divine but when but when
0:19:42 when a contingent thing is
0:19:45 given
0:19:46 divine properties then there's a
0:19:49 philosophical confusion that's
0:19:51 introduced in the way that we analyze
0:19:52 the universe we can we come to imagine
0:19:55 that okay well if this contingent thing
0:19:58 can actually
0:19:59 be independent and do things then maybe
0:20:02 other contingent things can be
0:20:04 independent and do things as well so the
0:20:07 so the perspective of
0:20:10 the universe from a christian
0:20:13 perspective came to be one where
0:20:16 laws of nature are
0:20:18 true meaning not in the sense of just
0:20:20 being
0:20:21 patterns and regular relationships but
0:20:23 they
0:20:24 really bring about their effects and
0:20:27 what a miracle is is a miracle is an
0:20:30 interruption
0:20:31 of a necessary relationship and that's
0:20:34 how it shows that the one who is doing
0:20:37 the miracle is god because god is the
0:20:39 one who is more powerful
0:20:42 than the laws of nature that are
0:20:45 powerful and so god comes and he
0:20:47 interrupts the system and then something
0:20:49 happens and now that means he's god so
0:20:51 someone does a miracle that means their
0:20:53 god and um
0:20:55 and so and this kind of thinking is
0:20:57 quite is quite prevalent you know in our
0:20:59 in our times and um but from from our
0:21:02 perspective from the islamic perspective
0:21:04 everything is already an act of god you
0:21:07 know you don't need so a miracle is not
0:21:10 an intervention
0:21:12 a miracle is a
0:21:14 pattern break a break in a pattern and
0:21:16 that and so when i when i see so from so
0:21:20 how does it how does it work the way it
0:21:21 works is that they give an example the
0:21:23 scholars of kalam they give an example
0:21:25 they say like if you
0:21:27 they take an example of a messenger from
0:21:30 a king
0:21:31 a human king so human king sends
0:21:34 us a messenger and this messenger says
0:21:36 that um hamza
0:21:39 paul i am a messenger from king
0:21:42 so-and-so and he's telling you he's
0:21:44 commanding you to do this and so we say
0:21:46 well i want authentication i want
0:21:47 verification and the king is there he
0:21:49 happens to be there and he's watching
0:21:51 and so the the messenger says that the
0:21:54 king right now is going to do something
0:21:55 that he doesn't normally do and the king
0:21:57 is watching
0:21:58 and he's seeing everything happening and
0:22:01 the the messenger says he's now going to
0:22:04 against his habit
0:22:06 um you know stand on one leg and then
0:22:08 stand on one leg again and then turn
0:22:11 around and in a in a you know do a twirl
0:22:14 like this and and we turn to look at the
0:22:16 king and he's watching everything and lo
0:22:18 and behold at that moment he does
0:22:20 exactly that so in this context in this
0:22:23 particular context of a claim to be a
0:22:26 messenger from this king when the king
0:22:29 does something that goes
0:22:32 against the way that he regularly does
0:22:34 things it's understood to be a sign a
0:22:38 sign is something that signifies it can
0:22:40 it so what what does this signify it's
0:22:42 like sign language it signifies that the
0:22:45 king is saying without actually speaking
0:22:47 to us that this
0:22:49 servant of mine is really speaking on my
0:22:53 behalf so in the same way when you have
0:22:56 a someone who claims to be god's
0:22:59 messenger and god in the islamic
0:23:02 paradigm he's running everything
0:23:04 everything is dependent on him directly
0:23:06 he's watching everything he hears
0:23:07 everything and he's there and this
0:23:10 messenger says that this
0:23:12 this being who you already know
0:23:15 is running everything is now going to
0:23:17 interrupt the way that he does things in
0:23:20 this way and that happens then in that
0:23:22 context it's understood as
0:23:25 divine confirmation so the the thing so
0:23:29 this is why this is why philosophically
0:23:32 um from a christian perspective a
0:23:35 miracle would be understood as a sign of
0:23:38 divinity
0:23:39 and whereas from a muslim perspective it
0:23:42 would be understood as a sign of
0:23:45 prophet
0:23:46 authentication
0:23:48 i think scripturally
0:23:50 the trinity introduces um what it allows
0:23:54 a it also scripturally mars things
0:23:56 because it's like a lens that you put on
0:23:58 that
0:23:59 that that colors the way that you read
0:24:02 what's happening so when uh when when
0:24:05 there's any when there's when it says
0:24:07 that only god does things and you say
0:24:10 well jesus is god therefore jesus is
0:24:11 doing something but jesus is also human
0:24:14 and so there's all of these human
0:24:15 characteristics and even though humanity
0:24:18 and godhood
0:24:20 are opposites and cannot coexist because
0:24:24 they cannot be the same thing because
0:24:26 one is needy and contingent and one
0:24:28 doesn't need anything but when you allow
0:24:30 for that and then you read scripture
0:24:32 through that then then you can you can
0:24:34 then read
0:24:36 scripture to
0:24:37 to there's a way that you can read it to
0:24:39 justify
0:24:40 um your position so it kind of clouds
0:24:43 and confuses um but if you kind of take
0:24:45 off those classes and you look at things
0:24:47 from the argument from contingency i
0:24:48 think that even
0:24:50 scripturally from a um biblical
0:24:52 perspective it would be more coherent
0:24:54 just as you described by citation no no
0:24:57 it's very helpful i i think also has
0:24:58 been noted by uh some biblical scholars
0:25:01 that none of the miracles attributed to
0:25:02 jesus in the christian gospels
0:25:05 is without parallel in the old testament
0:25:07 prophets themselves so all of the
0:25:08 miracles that he does whether it be
0:25:10 raising the dead or nature miracles or
0:25:13 healings and so on all found all fine
0:25:16 precedence in old testament prophets
0:25:18 actions
0:25:19 um uh elisha and elijah are two very
0:25:22 well examples so it's not even within
0:25:25 the so-called judeo-christian tradition
0:25:27 um
0:25:28 this is not necessarily at all an
0:25:30 indication of these miracles of someone
0:25:32 being god it can simply be someone who
0:25:35 has been commissioned by god chosen by
0:25:37 god god is working through them um so
0:25:40 there's an instability in the biblical
0:25:42 narrative here it being a library of
0:25:44 books of course there are many different
0:25:45 writers and authors over many over many
0:25:47 centuries some of it points to
0:25:49 an islamic conclusion arguably with the
0:25:51 prophets themselves in the jewish bible
0:25:53 um doing things by the power of god as
0:25:55 as you have have said it doesn't lead to
0:25:57 the christian conclusion i mean
0:25:59 so it's very um it's very very
0:26:01 complicated but but how does all this
0:26:03 relate to modern science religion
0:26:05 debates and i've got it back in my mind
0:26:07 i'm thinking intelligent design
0:26:09 arguments in america i'm thinking a lot
0:26:11 of the gaps i'm thinking all sorts of
0:26:12 things because it really does impact on
0:26:14 yeah it does yeah uh issues uh very much
0:26:17 so i think
0:26:19 yeah so what
0:26:20 happens is that so i think what's
0:26:22 happened in the
0:26:24 in the western tradition where there's
0:26:27 this battle between
0:26:29 atheism and religion science and
0:26:32 religion it's happened
0:26:34 in a christian context and that
0:26:36 christian context has colored those
0:26:39 debates and this is something that
0:26:41 i i i
0:26:42 you know i talk about a lot i have a
0:26:44 thinking muslims die to um atheist
0:26:46 arguments and
0:26:47 um
0:26:48 and so the the
0:26:50 uh
0:26:50 so a christian to a christian who sees
0:26:53 the world in this way
0:26:54 um
0:26:55 there's a competition there's a
0:26:57 competition between
0:26:59 natural explanations
0:27:01 and divine action
0:27:02 so uh so if
0:27:05 something can be explained by laws of
0:27:08 nature if i can say that laws of nature
0:27:10 did this
0:27:11 then
0:27:13 it means that the laws of nature have
0:27:15 crowded out god so if i want to bring if
0:27:20 i want to prove the existence of god
0:27:22 what i need to do is i need to create a
0:27:23 gap i need to create an opening i need
0:27:26 to find a space i need to find something
0:27:29 that a
0:27:31 that a scientist is unable to explain
0:27:34 and this manifests itself in a number of
0:27:37 areas and the most prominent one is
0:27:39 evolution so this is why evolution is so
0:27:44 such an important issue
0:27:46 in
0:27:47 science religion debates in the western
0:27:49 world because
0:27:50 for a um apart from the biblical
0:27:53 accounts of uh direct creation of
0:27:55 various different other kinds of human
0:27:57 beings um even non-humans um there's
0:28:00 there's this uh there's this
0:28:03 if
0:28:05 if
0:28:06 the human beings and all other animals
0:28:08 and the variety of life that we see
0:28:10 if there's a natural
0:28:12 way a process in which it can come about
0:28:14 then it means that
0:28:16 god didn't make it the laws of nature
0:28:19 did so but if i can prove that
0:28:22 that the laws of nature cannot
0:28:26 explain this design and variety this
0:28:28 compelling design in the universe then
0:28:31 i have carved out a space for the
0:28:33 existence of god and so the the
0:28:35 battleground for the existence of god
0:28:38 becomes the scientific evidence or lack
0:28:42 of scientific evidence for
0:28:44 uh the theory of evolution and it's all
0:28:48 um that's where the you know it's the
0:28:50 centerpiece of the intelligent design
0:28:51 movement and then there's other things
0:28:53 like um other things that cannot be
0:28:55 scientifically explained like the
0:28:57 constants of physical constants in the
0:28:59 universe or like or the beginning of the
0:29:02 universe you know it's not if the
0:29:03 universe had a beginning then by
0:29:05 definition it cannot have a natural
0:29:06 explanation because there was no nature
0:29:08 before it so so that's the that's the
0:29:11 lens through which through which they'll
0:29:13 come and
0:29:14 the it becomes and so what what the
0:29:16 scientist says is that wait a minute
0:29:19 like you're you're if you fine if you
0:29:23 know there there may be problems with
0:29:26 evolutionary explanations and
0:29:28 but that's the nature of science if if
0:29:30 you just come and say that no science
0:29:33 cannot explain it you're hindering
0:29:36 my
0:29:37 my ability to function as a scientist
0:29:39 because what science what scientists do
0:29:42 is they search there's things that are
0:29:43 unexplainable there is never perfect you
0:29:46 kind of improve in your knowledge but
0:29:47 you're telling me i cannot go further
0:29:50 and now it'll be seen from the
0:29:52 perspective of the scientists as
0:29:53 something that is getting in the way of
0:29:56 science so and and from the perspective
0:29:59 of the christian theist it's science
0:30:01 getting in the way of god and so there's
0:30:03 a they're inevitably locked in um in
0:30:06 dispute but if you if you step back and
0:30:09 you see things from an islamic
0:30:11 perspective and you see that well
0:30:14 everything is
0:30:15 uh you know the science discovers
0:30:18 the relationships that god has placed in
0:30:21 the universe then the more the better
0:30:23 you know like there's no you don't need
0:30:24 to
0:30:25 you don't need to
0:30:27 you don't need to bring out a space
0:30:30 where something cannot be explained in
0:30:32 order to prove the existence of god the
0:30:34 role of that space the role of that
0:30:36 space is just it's an anomalous event
0:30:39 it's rare the role of it is to
0:30:41 authenticate prophets happens once in a
0:30:44 while um but
0:30:46 and it could happen in certain other
0:30:48 contexts too but it's not normal it's
0:30:50 not regular
0:30:51 and
0:30:52 and and you know and the the more
0:30:55 the more
0:30:56 design there is the more natural
0:30:59 explanations there are if the natural
0:31:01 explanations are seen as patterns of
0:31:04 divine action
0:31:05 you know it points to the knowledge of
0:31:07 god the wisdom of god
0:31:09 um there's no the competition isn't
0:31:11 there so um so i think it's it's
0:31:14 unfortunate when when muslims with what
0:31:17 they
0:31:18 they go to a
0:31:20 um to a
0:31:21 christian refutation of
0:31:24 of of atheist arguments because they
0:31:26 they then take on certain assumptions
0:31:28 and they enter into a battlefield that
0:31:30 they don't need to enter into um
0:31:33 and uh
0:31:34 yeah
0:31:34 yeah i think the privilege of uh um
0:31:36 speaking to uh dr steven meyer on
0:31:38 blogging theologies just several days
0:31:40 ago he's uh perhaps america's leading or
0:31:42 most famous advocate of intelligent
0:31:45 design at the discovery institute and uh
0:31:48 he discussed uh some of these issues and
0:31:49 i did actually ask him um uh what one of
0:31:52 those questions that if
0:31:54 as you say if science at the moment
0:31:56 cannot explain phenomena x because there
0:31:59 are several phenomena that he alludes to
0:32:01 which proved the existence of god um is
0:32:04 this not a hostage to fortune in some
0:32:06 sense because you're basically saying
0:32:08 belief in god evidence for god
0:32:11 is predicated on the
0:32:13 non-explicability on naturalistic
0:32:16 grounds at the moment of certain
0:32:18 phenomena if if science can maybe not in
0:32:21 our lifetimes maybe in a 100 years time
0:32:24 come to some kind of explanation then
0:32:26 your argument your proof for the
0:32:28 existence of god just disappears and
0:32:30 you're left with no faith and uh um and
0:32:34 we can see his his response to that i'm
0:32:35 not going to rehearse his answer whether
0:32:38 or not you think you might think it's
0:32:39 satisfactory or not but the islamic
0:32:40 position seems invulnerable clearly to
0:32:43 any such objections uh and indeed the
0:32:46 uh the more wondrous nature the more
0:32:48 science there is uh it actually in a
0:32:50 sense is welcome it's not a threat it's
0:32:52 not competition this is i like your word
0:32:54 there there's no competition between the
0:32:56 islamic understanding of the universe
0:32:59 and god's action and god's patterns of
0:33:01 action in the universe and science
0:33:03 they're in harmony because they're
0:33:05 operating at different levels of
0:33:06 discourse it seems uh completely
0:33:08 different levels of discourse which can
0:33:10 sit comfortably together they're in
0:33:11 complementary harmonious relationship
0:33:14 rather than as you say in competition
0:33:16 where uh the id people want to claim
0:33:19 this for their territory you know the
0:33:20 scientists say well hang on
0:33:22 we may can or will have an explanation
0:33:24 one day perhaps we have faith in our
0:33:26 science so islam bypasses all that
0:33:29 completely that's a very
0:33:30 uh intellectually satisfying answer uh
0:33:33 perhaps some people might think
0:33:35 yeah and that's why miracles in science
0:33:37 and christianity in christianity and
0:33:38 islam are so important to um
0:33:41 to this issue it's like science religion
0:33:43 debates they're
0:33:45 um
0:33:46 it's core
0:33:47 okay well um
0:33:49 in conclusion um i had a particular this
0:33:51 is a slightly uh tangential we've
0:33:53 covered this already but i did want to
0:33:55 share uh a passage which uh in the
0:33:57 gospels which uh from the the christian
0:33:59 bible which um again is something for
0:34:02 christians to
0:34:03 reflect on when it comes to the way the
0:34:05 bible presents jesus i've already quoted
0:34:08 from peter's amazing testimony that
0:34:10 jesus was just a man through whom god
0:34:13 did miracles and signs and wonders
0:34:15 amongst you as you yourselves know
0:34:17 fitting rather extraordinarily with the
0:34:19 islamic view perhaps of
0:34:21 jesus action in the world and there's
0:34:23 another very very rarely cited passage
0:34:26 um which may have some um parallels in
0:34:30 the life of muhammad upon him be pieced
0:34:32 as well i just wanted to read that from
0:34:33 the earliest gospel of mark chapter
0:34:36 eight
0:34:36 um i'll just read it and then um make a
0:34:39 few comments perhaps this is where jesus
0:34:41 cures a blind man at uh bethsaida this
0:34:45 is a town in
0:34:46 palestine they came to bethsaida some
0:34:49 people brought a blind man to him and
0:34:52 begged him to touch him he that's jesus
0:34:55 took the blind man by the hand and led
0:34:57 him out of the village and when he had
0:34:58 put saliva on his eyes um when he put
0:35:02 saliva's when he put saliva on his eyes
0:35:05 and laid his hands on him he asked him
0:35:08 can you see anything so jesus doesn't
0:35:11 know he's asking the man the blind man
0:35:13 can he see anything that's interesting
0:35:15 in itself and the man looked up and said
0:35:18 i can see people but they look like
0:35:20 trees walking
0:35:22 okay so he's not completely healed he
0:35:24 can't see really truly clearly
0:35:27 then jesus
0:35:29 laid his hands on his eyes again
0:35:33 there's a stage several stages in this
0:35:35 healing process and he looked intensely
0:35:38 and his sight was restored and he saw
0:35:41 everything clearly then he went away to
0:35:44 his home saying do not uh do not even go
0:35:47 into the village so
0:35:48 what i find fascinating there is a
0:35:50 several things which struck me is that
0:35:53 in the traditional christian model of
0:35:55 jesus being god and his actions are uh
0:35:57 signs of his divinity this shouldn't
0:36:00 really happen you shouldn't have jesus
0:36:01 going through a staged healing
0:36:03 inquiring of the the the blind man have
0:36:07 you been killed have you been healed yet
0:36:09 how's it looking to you can you see
0:36:10 anything the guy says
0:36:12 well sort of so jesus has another go
0:36:15 and
0:36:16 and eventually the guy is is healed so
0:36:19 that that sits ill with the the uh the
0:36:22 traditional christian view but also it
0:36:25 speaks to that this idea of of using
0:36:28 spittle and laying hands on uh putting
0:36:30 saliva on his eyes was interesting and
0:36:34 then like laying hands on him as well
0:36:36 there's a uh almost a ritual aspect to
0:36:38 this as well and again when i first read
0:36:40 this a long time ago this this caused
0:36:43 cognitive dissonance i think hang on how
0:36:45 does this fit in with my traditional
0:36:47 christian beliefs at that time that
0:36:48 jesus is god and just does things by
0:36:51 fiat you know he just does things it
0:36:53 doesn't fit in with that and it speaks
0:36:54 to a more a different way of
0:36:56 understanding jesus action i'm not
0:36:58 saying by the way this is historical i
0:37:00 have no idea um a lot of stuff in the
0:37:02 gospels historians now say not for
0:37:05 anti-miraculous reasons but for
0:37:08 historical reasons are not historical
0:37:10 after all but um is there anything in
0:37:12 the life of the prophet muhammad upon
0:37:14 him beast that might offer some
0:37:16 reflections on this yeah so uh um
0:37:20 a lot of the miracles that that were
0:37:22 performed by jesus were also performed
0:37:24 by or as reported in the bible that were
0:37:26 performed by jesus were also performed
0:37:27 by the prophet muhammad
0:37:29 so miraculous multiplication of food
0:37:31 multiplication of water for example is
0:37:33 one one example but also i'm healing the
0:37:35 blind and
0:37:37 um and uh
0:37:38 i think um in the battle of the trench
0:37:40 the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam
0:37:42 he said that i'm going to give um
0:37:47 this i forget the details i'm going to
0:37:48 give this sword or this batter to
0:37:50 somebody who loves allah and his
0:37:51 messenger
0:37:52 and uh
0:37:54 and said ali was the hero of that battle
0:37:56 and he had a he had a
0:37:58 an eye condition and the prophet saw
0:38:00 allah
0:38:01 he miraculously cured it
0:38:03 through spitting and
0:38:06 interesting this was also um there's uh
0:38:09 uh
0:38:11 the liar the false prophet who emerged
0:38:13 in the life of the prophet sallallahu
0:38:14 alaihi
0:38:15 he um
0:38:16 people came to him and they said to him
0:38:18 that muhammad um cures
0:38:21 people when they go become blind he
0:38:23 cures them by spitting in your in their
0:38:25 eyes can you do the same thing he said
0:38:27 yes of course i can and so they brought
0:38:30 a man to him who was blind in one eye
0:38:33 and so he spat in it and the other eye
0:38:35 went blind too
0:38:36 so um so this is this is that rather
0:38:39 badly
0:38:40 miraculous phenomenon that that
0:38:42 signifies the opposite of what a
0:38:45 prophetic miracle signifies like a
0:38:47 divine act that uh that shows that uh
0:38:50 um that somebody is not an authentic
0:38:53 prophet but i think that one of the
0:38:54 things that that um the passage that you
0:38:57 brought out and the other passages that
0:38:59 you mentioned brings
0:39:01 is that um there's there's a lot of um
0:39:05 that when that when we when when we as
0:39:08 muslims read the bible
0:39:11 through an islamic lens
0:39:13 there's things that we can see that um
0:39:16 that allow us to to take a lot of it and
0:39:19 and uh
0:39:21 um
0:39:22 and give it a new give it a meaning that
0:39:24 uh you know
0:39:25 um
0:39:26 yeah i i i yeah i don't know so my my
0:39:30 own journey i came you know i was born
0:39:32 muslim but when i when i read the
0:39:34 gospels i i there's obviously there's
0:39:37 things there that i that i wouldn't that
0:39:38 i wouldn't um
0:39:39 accept but um but i love jesus you know
0:39:42 like it's just there's a lot of very
0:39:44 beautiful things there
0:39:45 and um
0:39:46 often christians don't appreciate that
0:39:48 uh muslims also love jesus revere jesus
0:39:51 and indeed the quran it speaks of jesus
0:39:54 on many cases and his mother too a whole
0:39:55 chapter of the crown is named after her
0:39:57 and speaks of her with great reverence
0:39:59 and respect um
0:40:01 and uh so jesus is truly a global figure
0:40:04 in the abrahamic uh faiths it's really
0:40:07 extraordinary
0:40:08 so um in conclusion uh hamza um
0:40:12 would you like to perhaps uh tell us a
0:40:13 bit about your why islam is true course
0:40:16 yeah so a lot of so everything that i've
0:40:19 described here is um it's there in a
0:40:22 course that i've developed is called
0:40:23 islam is true and the idea of miracles
0:40:26 and approaching them from the
0:40:28 perspective of
0:40:30 of of the quranic perspective and how um
0:40:34 modern religion science debates are
0:40:36 clouded by um by not having the islamic
0:40:39 perspective there in the mainstream so
0:40:42 it's um unfortunate that it's not there
0:40:44 yet inshallah i hope it'll come in the
0:40:45 future but uh but this is a course that
0:40:48 uh that is that that's developed for
0:40:51 high school students but there's adults
0:40:52 who take it too
0:40:53 and i'm i'm training teachers um in many
0:40:57 institutions to deliver this course
0:40:59 there's a textbook there's learning
0:41:00 there's lesson plans there's training
0:41:02 and um and there'll be an announcement
0:41:05 after ramadan um during ramadan actually
0:41:08 and so
0:41:09 um i hope all of you will follow
0:41:11 inshallah yes there's also the thing
0:41:13 that people can can subscribe to um and
0:41:17 thinking muslimsguy.com
0:41:19 um a lot of what i said is unpacked you
0:41:22 know but
0:41:23 okay well i'll link to that in the
0:41:25 description below so people can uh
0:41:26 follow that through so thank you
0:41:29 very much for that uh fascinating uh
0:41:31 presentation on miracles in christianity
0:41:34 and islam and uh uh i i perhaps uh god
0:41:37 willing you'll uh come back um
0:41:40 again to talk about uh david hume's
0:41:43 problem of miracles in christian and
0:41:46 islamic theology and david hume a
0:41:49 scottish philosopher of the scottish
0:41:50 enlightenment um hugely influential
0:41:54 intellectually
0:41:56 in in the world um and a very very
0:41:58 skeptical voice in um basically
0:42:02 rejecting the miraculous completely from
0:42:05 the world um and he his influence still
0:42:08 lingers in the background uh in the belt
0:42:11 and strong uh the world view that um we
0:42:14 inhabit in the west which now by
0:42:16 extension perhaps means that globally as
0:42:18 well so it's useful to have to pinpoint
0:42:21 i think these uh historical figures uh
0:42:24 who were they what did they say
0:42:26 uh and and their enduring influence on
0:42:29 discourse today because whether or not
0:42:30 we've heard of this guy his thought is
0:42:32 still in the in the in the air in the
0:42:35 atmosphere we breathe and and that's why
0:42:37 um hamza uh god willing if you would
0:42:40 like to come back another time to talk
0:42:42 about
0:42:42 uh hume's problem
0:42:44 problems with miracles because he wrote
0:42:46 a lot about this
0:42:48 yep yeah
0:42:50 and shall i'll see you inshallah correct
0:42:52 well thank you very well thank you very
0:42:54 much again as i say to um hamza sheikh
0:42:57 hamza karamali uh for your time your
0:42:59 expertise and um i'm sure viewers will
0:43:02 benefit as much as i did from your
0:43:04 presentation so until next time