Modern Trends: Islam & Science | Mohammed Hijab (2022-11-17) ​

0:00:00 oh
0:00:05 yeah
0:00:07 so how are you guys doing and welcome to
0:00:09 another session where we're going to be
0:00:11 discussing some of the modern Trends and
0:00:13 some of the modern interrogations in the
0:00:15 academy
0:00:15 especially the Western Academy relating
0:00:18 to Islam and Muslims today we're going
0:00:20 to be talking about Islam and Science
0:00:21 and no we're not going to be mentioning
0:00:23 necessarily all the ayat and the Hadith
0:00:25 that's a different kind of inquiry which
0:00:28 claimed to have scientific meaning or
0:00:30 something like that we've in fact done a
0:00:32 series on this before a 27 part series
0:00:36 responding to some of the shovelheads
0:00:38 surrounding that in fact today we're
0:00:40 going to be talking about the history of
0:00:42 Islamic science some of the key things
0:00:44 that we should know as a group
0:00:45 especially as it pertains to one
0:00:47 particular interrogation which is made
0:00:50 and has been made by the new atheists
0:00:53 um which is simple as this
0:00:55 new atheists
0:00:57 claim okay they claim that religion
0:01:00 inhibits science that is a claim it's as
0:01:03 really as simple as that religion
0:01:04 inhibits science
0:01:06 uh so meaning that if you are a
0:01:09 religious person or Islam or
0:01:11 Christianity or whatever
0:01:13 science as an Enterprise is less likely
0:01:16 to flourish is more likely to be
0:01:18 inhibited and you can add as a you know
0:01:22 in addition to that
0:01:23 if you don't have religion therefore
0:01:25 science will prosper and the
0:01:27 establishment or the institution the
0:01:29 scientific institutions will do much
0:01:30 better
0:01:31 so I'm going to read something from
0:01:32 Grayling AC Grayling who is many will
0:01:35 not know but he's actually a new atheist
0:01:37 himself and academically he's probably
0:01:40 one of the top new atheists we all know
0:01:42 about the four horsemen of new atheism
0:01:44 who are who let's just get over people
0:01:46 involved who are the so-called Four
0:01:47 Horsemen of new atheism
0:01:57 Daniel Dennett so these are the four
0:01:59 right and they added to it funny enough
0:02:01 uh Richard always said if we've got to
0:02:03 add another person to it
0:02:05 will be the fight the fifth horse lady
0:02:07 of new atheism who is it going to be
0:02:11 a lady yeah they said if we're gonna add
0:02:13 a fifth person into this mix who's it
0:02:15 going to be no no no it was iron Hersey
0:02:19 Ali no way yeah yeah he said if we're
0:02:21 gonna add a fifth person it's gonna be
0:02:22 Iron Hersey you know the fourth it's a
0:02:25 quota maybe because she's black and
0:02:27 she's a woman then this is something you
0:02:29 know so it's not all white men you know
0:02:30 so it's like tokenistic however another
0:02:34 nue atheist who's really like you know
0:02:36 he praises the other guys from his AC
0:02:38 Grayling now he's in the University of
0:02:39 Cambridge
0:02:41 I think he still lectures there he's
0:02:43 written books against religion and stuff
0:02:44 like that and of one of the main things
0:02:47 that he tries to push is this narrative
0:02:48 so this is what he says he says whatever
0:02:50 whatever else one might think about the
0:02:53 checkered history of the relation
0:02:54 between science and religion at least
0:02:57 one thing is clear
0:02:58 that they do indeed compete for truth
0:03:01 about the origins of the universe and
0:03:04 the nature of human beings and whether
0:03:06 the universe manifests evidence of
0:03:07 intelligent design
0:03:09 so what has he done here if someone
0:03:11 could just uh break it down what what's
0:03:12 what is AC Grayling trying to say
0:03:17 yes there's a tension between religion
0:03:21 and science they both they're both
0:03:22 trying to speak about this is what he's
0:03:24 saying anyway yeah that they're both
0:03:25 trying to speak about the same things
0:03:26 and so when they end up with conflicting
0:03:29 uh conclusions or answers to these
0:03:31 questions about you know the origin of
0:03:33 the universe for example yeah then
0:03:35 there's a exactly so the way he's
0:03:38 positioning it he's saying look you have
0:03:40 two ways of explaining the origins of
0:03:42 the universe you have science on the one
0:03:44 hand and you have religion on the other
0:03:47 and these two things are not necessarily
0:03:51 in harmony with each other in fact
0:03:53 they're in opposition to each other
0:03:54 these are two separate ways
0:03:56 and to caricature this maybe a little
0:03:59 bit or to put this in simple terms the
0:04:01 way that they would put it is say for
0:04:02 example back in the days they used to
0:04:04 think that there was a God for rain and
0:04:05 a God for lightning and whatever now we
0:04:07 know that rain is done through
0:04:08 evaporation condensation the water cycle
0:04:11 or whatever so now we have a better
0:04:13 explanation to the superstitious and
0:04:15 religious explanations that still
0:04:17 persist in our world today this is the
0:04:19 kind of way so before it used to be like
0:04:21 this or this was the way witches and
0:04:23 magic and this was the way to explain
0:04:25 the world now the way we explain the
0:04:27 world is through science and so we don't
0:04:29 need therefore the uh a
0:04:33 a mention of religion is a Superfluous
0:04:36 one this is unnecessary because we know
0:04:37 exactly how
0:04:39 things are happening
0:04:42 you know this is classic new atheist
0:04:44 argumentation okay this is classic new
0:04:46 atheist argumentation and you'll see
0:04:48 this trickle down to lower level people
0:04:51 who copy the new atheists this is the
0:04:53 kind of thing for example you'll see
0:04:55 some of them say well we know now the
0:04:57 the meteorites are like this and how
0:04:59 could they Pelt devils and how could
0:05:01 they Pelt Devils when we know blah blah
0:05:02 blah
0:05:03 you see the same kind of arguments being
0:05:05 made we know now where it comes from
0:05:06 it's a new atheist argument
0:05:09 and AC railing is a is a philosopher
0:05:11 actually he's one of the most qualified
0:05:13 new atheists there are but this is the
0:05:15 level of his augmentation
0:05:18 uh now the question is
0:05:20 how would you answer this before we move
0:05:22 forward like can I so if someone says
0:05:24 there's a tension between uh religion on
0:05:27 the one hand and science on the other
0:05:28 and both of them are separate ways of
0:05:30 trying to explain the origins of the
0:05:32 universe for example how would you uh
0:05:33 how would if you're confronted with that
0:05:35 how would you answer this Matty how
0:05:37 would you answer that
0:05:40 sure
0:05:42 oh then
0:05:43 then yes bye I would say their purposes
0:05:47 are different
0:05:49 so the purpose of science is to uncover
0:05:51 and understand the natural world whereas
0:05:53 the purpose of religion for the most
0:05:55 part is more existential than that it's
0:05:58 looking at our purpose looking at what
0:06:00 we're here for and afterlife if you know
0:06:03 the said religion believes in that so I
0:06:05 would say the purposes are different
0:06:06 yeah I think that's right the way I
0:06:09 would put it is this is that this is a
0:06:11 category mistake fallacy okay
0:06:14 it's a category mistake fallacy because
0:06:17 as you mentioned yeah this is correct
0:06:20 it's like you know when we're looking at
0:06:21 science we're looking at what
0:06:25 what
0:06:26 is there and how is it there you know
0:06:30 how what is there and how is it there
0:06:33 but when we when we're looking at more
0:06:35 religious Notions sometimes we're
0:06:36 thinking about why why has God done this
0:06:38 you know what that why is not something
0:06:41 which the scientific method is actually
0:06:43 capable of even investigating
0:06:45 the only way you can claim that there is
0:06:47 a contradiction here is in situations
0:06:50 where both
0:06:51 religion and science are talking about
0:06:53 what or how
0:06:54 that there is a clear
0:06:57 difference
0:06:58 and here we have to start talking about
0:07:00 the philosophy of science and soccer
0:07:01 well how sure are we of said Theory
0:07:05 like how are we talking about a physics
0:07:07 theory are we talking about like things
0:07:10 have what you call different epistemic
0:07:12 weightings like for example things which
0:07:14 are observable
0:07:16 are different to the explanation of the
0:07:18 observables
0:07:20 if if I drop a vase
0:07:23 if I drop this phone okay on the floor
0:07:25 okay we can all observe it falling onto
0:07:28 the floor
0:07:28 but the way scientists will explain that
0:07:31 is going to be different has been
0:07:33 different actually
0:07:34 now the explanation of that
0:07:36 is theoretical
0:07:40 and the observance or me observing the
0:07:43 the falling phone
0:07:45 that's something which is not
0:07:47 necessarily as theoretical
0:07:49 at all Annie so then you start thinking
0:07:53 about well you in philosophy of science
0:07:54 these Notions which you should all be
0:07:57 aware of very much it's just for example
0:07:59 the problem of induction
0:08:01 everyone should know the point of
0:08:02 induction something called
0:08:03 theory-relatedness
0:08:05 which is the idea that you're bringing
0:08:07 your own Theory and pushing on to the
0:08:09 observable reality
0:08:11 so it's Laden with your own Theory
0:08:14 something called under determination
0:08:17 so once again this idea that you have
0:08:21 not enough evidence or you have some you
0:08:23 have a part of the puzzle and you're
0:08:25 making a generalization of some sorts
0:08:27 these are all issues which philosophers
0:08:29 of science have spoken about once we've
0:08:30 established that the thing in question
0:08:33 the scientific whatever it is in
0:08:35 question is of a higher epistemic value
0:08:38 we have to expand we have to explain and
0:08:41 justify why it's high first of all what
0:08:43 level is it and then we can discuss
0:08:46 whether or not it's in contradiction
0:08:47 with science let me give you some maybe
0:08:49 some live examples
0:08:52 in America you have a group called the
0:08:55 young age creationists
0:08:57 okay
0:08:58 now what do they believe does they don't
0:08:59 know what they believe
0:09:03 what was created in six literal 24-hour
0:09:06 periods yeah and how long is how how old
0:09:09 okay so I believe that the the age of
0:09:11 the universe is six thousand years they
0:09:13 get that
0:09:14 directly from the Bible and the
0:09:16 literalistic reading of the Bible
0:09:18 why because if you look at Genesis 1 it
0:09:21 says that the Earth was created in six
0:09:23 days yeah then they add Genesis 4 which
0:09:26 basically
0:09:27 Genesis 4 tells you the lineages
0:09:30 from people from Adam to basically our
0:09:32 times and so the lots of people have
0:09:35 said okay if you add it all up to six
0:09:36 thousand years ago the Jewish calendar
0:09:38 six thousand eight five thousand
0:09:39 something yeah the Orthodox Jews believe
0:09:42 that the universe is six thousand years
0:09:44 old again
0:09:45 okay now they say that I'm not saying
0:09:49 all Christians believe in that they are
0:09:51 old age creationists of course but this
0:09:53 is a theory on the literal reading of
0:09:55 the Bible this is what you come with
0:09:56 yeah and Orthodox Jews believe in the
0:09:59 same thing most of them
0:10:00 the universe is exercising is now if I
0:10:02 come and say well I've got good
0:10:04 justification
0:10:06 on many different disciplines
0:10:08 archeology paleontology cosmology
0:10:11 physics all these things to show the
0:10:13 universe is not six thousands much
0:10:14 longer that we have in fact
0:10:16 civilizational remnants which are longer
0:10:17 than six thousand years
0:10:20 this is a very strong argument you're
0:10:21 making against the old young age
0:10:23 creationists you see so now it becomes
0:10:26 problematic and there is a tension here
0:10:29 so if you believe in something which
0:10:31 there's so much triangulated evidence
0:10:33 against because this triangulated
0:10:35 evidence it's more than one field here
0:10:37 and now you have to justify that there
0:10:39 is a tension here well if I don't
0:10:41 believe the Earth is six thousand
0:10:42 Universe 6000 years old I don't have the
0:10:44 same issues
0:10:46 so it depends on what we're talking
0:10:47 about if you talk well if you if we want
0:10:49 to talk about
0:10:50 the expanding Universe once again
0:10:53 how much volatility is there in
0:10:55 believing in the redshift and expanding
0:10:58 universe there's so much volatility here
0:11:00 like Penrose I remember 10 years ago 15
0:11:02 years ago he was one of the biggest
0:11:03 proponents he's recently Roger Penrose
0:11:06 made a study a paper saying now he
0:11:09 doesn't believe in that anymore
0:11:10 this is in his own lifetime he's changed
0:11:12 his mind on something so fundamental as
0:11:14 the origins of the universe and the
0:11:17 functionality of it so I'm saying is
0:11:19 that there are some things which change
0:11:20 quite often and some things which don't
0:11:23 and so we have to first assess what
0:11:25 we're talking about so unless one is
0:11:27 coming with okay
0:11:30 we have to be talking about the same
0:11:32 category we're talking about how and
0:11:33 what on this side and how and what on
0:11:35 this side once we've assessed that this
0:11:37 is the same category
0:11:38 then we see is there tension or no
0:11:39 tension
0:11:41 but if we're saying God puts down rain
0:11:43 so he can teach us a lesson so that's
0:11:46 explanation of why it sends down rain or
0:11:48 that he can give us so so that we can be
0:11:50 grateful for example this is more as you
0:11:52 mentioned it's more of a purpose it's
0:11:53 more teleological so if you try and
0:11:56 juxtapose a teleology which is a y with
0:11:59 a what there's no contradiction because
0:12:00 it's a different category so you have to
0:12:02 be very careful as to exactly what
0:12:04 they're saying if they're saying there's
0:12:06 something in your Quran on the Sunnah or
0:12:08 in the Bible wherever it may be that
0:12:10 contradicts with modern science we have
0:12:12 to assess how strong the thing is in
0:12:13 modern science that you're talking about
0:12:15 how epistemic epistemically justifiably
0:12:18 is and then
0:12:19 talk about well this is there is a
0:12:21 tension there's not attention that's
0:12:22 where the discussion is if it's not the
0:12:24 case there's a category mistake fallacy
0:12:27 so these new atheists haven't really
0:12:30 laid out the situation like that they've
0:12:32 simplified it and Hyper caricatured it
0:12:34 by saying look it's there's an issue
0:12:36 here there's an issue here both of them
0:12:37 are separate explanation does this make
0:12:39 sense so far
0:12:40 yes
0:12:43 I think a lot of times and it's not just
0:12:44 even on this question even last week
0:12:45 with the secularism question whenever
0:12:47 the term religion is mentioned
0:12:48 what people really mean by that is
0:12:50 really Christianity because that's the
0:12:52 Paradigm that they're coming from that's
0:12:53 what they've been interacting with this
0:12:55 whole native or conflict between you
0:12:57 know church and state last week this
0:12:58 year religion and science yeah a lot of
0:13:00 these are very Christian controversies
0:13:01 that are sort of just exactly and that's
0:13:03 why most of their arguments like you
0:13:04 you'll see most of their arguments as
0:13:06 like all of religion believe in young
0:13:08 attritionism if you if you read new age
0:13:10 new ACS it's as if they've now blanket
0:13:15 blanketed all of religion with okay you
0:13:17 all believe in this thing
0:13:27 people do that like sometimes a lot of
0:13:28 Christians that I speak to that have
0:13:30 left Christianity yeah they would paint
0:13:32 the same brush the Islam with yeah
0:13:34 exactly and we're like no and a lot
0:13:35 they're making the same mistake yeah you
0:13:37 know you can see they just think oh
0:13:39 these people even if you think about
0:13:40 actually Islam is against these kind of
0:13:42 um you know uh like you said the god of
0:13:44 rain this this is actually it's what we
0:13:46 call it a because it's major to us
0:13:48 no but for us we have angels for example
0:13:49 the angel is in charge of the mountain
0:13:51 danger so they'll say that's one
0:13:53 explanation we have another scientific
0:13:54 information yes we're saying for for
0:13:55 instance those two things don't
0:13:57 contradict because this you're looking
0:13:59 at things physically but the
0:14:00 metaphysical realm is a separate
0:14:02 category which is undetectable by the
0:14:05 scientific method yeah so this is this
0:14:07 is the kind of things that we need to
0:14:08 bear in mind okay we're gonna go to the
0:14:10 next thing here which is uh Islamic
0:14:13 science itself now obviously one of the
0:14:15 best and strongest arguments against the
0:14:17 fact that religion inhibits after we've
0:14:19 laid the groundwork as we just have yeah
0:14:21 so you can lay the groundwork and I've
0:14:23 almost assigned a philosophical way
0:14:25 which as we just have broken down how
0:14:27 and what and this and that weather you
0:14:30 can also show history historically was
0:14:33 what's happened
0:14:35 and
0:14:39 he he also he answers the question what
0:14:42 caused the decline of Islamic science
0:14:43 he's one of the historians of science
0:14:45 now in in history you have sub you know
0:14:48 obviously categories one of them is
0:14:50 called History of Science yeah so the
0:14:51 these historians they just focus on how
0:14:54 science has changed yeah Ahmad is one of
0:14:57 the top guys in especially Islamic
0:14:59 science another guy which we're going to
0:15:00 cover is a guy called George Saliba
0:15:02 you should know this guy's name is he's
0:15:04 actually not a Muslim salib is his
0:15:07 crucifixion
0:15:09 um
0:15:14 so he's a Christian but despite him
0:15:17 being a Christian his very fair-minded
0:15:18 when he comes to approaching Islamic
0:15:20 history and stuff like that and his
0:15:22 stuff is actually very very very good
0:15:24 like in terms of the English I think
0:15:26 this is the best one like in terms of
0:15:28 the English-speaking historians of
0:15:30 science
0:15:31 he's probably the best because he he
0:15:33 will
0:15:34 he will scour in English and Arabic and
0:15:37 all these other languages I think he's
0:15:39 got access to at least two or three
0:15:40 other languages
0:15:42 all of the manuscripts and so reading
0:15:44 him will save you a lot of Heartache if
0:15:46 you're and it's better than reading a
0:15:47 primary source material on a specific
0:15:49 issue so let's see what Ahmad says first
0:15:51 on um what caused decline in the Islamic
0:15:55 in science he says that there is no
0:15:56 single reason
0:15:58 uh no single reason dictates scientific
0:16:01 decline in the Muslim World rather it is
0:16:02 attributed to a variety of
0:16:04 civilizational factors including
0:16:05 military confrontations with Europe at
0:16:08 the time of Rapid Colonial expansion
0:16:11 if you think about
0:16:13 there's a let me Preamble this by saying
0:16:15 there is a controversy within historians
0:16:18 of science as to when did the decline
0:16:20 begin
0:16:21 when was the Golden Age of Islamic
0:16:22 science
0:16:23 and when did the decline actually begin
0:16:26 like we all know the ambassad period
0:16:28 okay fine there was a golden age here
0:16:30 you know the there was a golden age that
0:16:32 lasted 12 13 until the 13th 13th century
0:16:35 but a lot of like for example I read the
0:16:38 guy who wrote the history of Western's
0:16:40 uh Western Civilization scientific I
0:16:43 think the book is here somewhere
0:16:45 uh
0:16:46 I think it might have been uh numbers
0:16:49 yeah he he argues
0:16:52 Ross numbers he argues that it happened
0:16:54 this is a misconception he says actually
0:16:55 it's not the 12th century it's 15th
0:16:57 century
0:16:58 and it continued up into the ottoman
0:17:00 times that scientific
0:17:03 Enterprise and stuff continued up until
0:17:05 the 15th 16th century then you had the
0:17:07 decline which is why Dalal here is
0:17:09 saying confrontations with Europe
0:17:10 because confrontations of Europe
0:17:12 was more so with the Ottoman Empire than
0:17:14 was with our bassets for example our
0:17:17 ambassadors didn't really have these
0:17:18 kinds of conversations the Ottomans
0:17:20 really engaged with Europe you know so
0:17:22 if you if you consider
0:17:25 you know 14 uh when was the 1453 the
0:17:30 great uh conquest of uh Constantinople
0:17:33 yeah and then after that there were
0:17:36 scientific
0:17:38 operations in the Ottoman Empire
0:17:40 after there was a decline in the 16th
0:17:42 17th century of the Ottoman Empire more
0:17:45 so the 17th 18th century like they
0:17:47 called the Ottoman Empire the sick man
0:17:48 of Europe
0:17:49 that is because the Ottomans didn't
0:17:52 couldn't keep up with the Europeans for
0:17:55 a variety of reasons which we've
0:17:56 discussed before do you remember some of
0:17:57 those reasons what did the Europeans do
0:17:59 now if you're considering the
0:18:00 colonization and stuff like that
0:18:02 discovered America they discovered
0:18:03 America I mean to put it lightly you
0:18:05 know the English the English found coal
0:18:08 and what did that uh lead to
0:18:11 industrial Industrial Revolution okay
0:18:13 what else happened
0:18:15 East transportation for them
0:18:18 ease transportation for them yeah yeah
0:18:21 yeah what else happened colonialism okay
0:18:24 and what kind of colonism uh in South
0:18:27 America and in Africa okay places in
0:18:29 India what other Revolution took place
0:18:31 in the West
0:18:33 well more specific to this situation
0:18:35 here in the 15th 16th century
0:18:37 the Scientific Revolution the Scientific
0:18:39 Revolution why is the Scientific
0:18:40 Revolution take place
0:18:43 we discussed this
0:18:46 what what initiated the scientific
0:18:49 revolution in Europe religion or
0:18:52 renaissance
0:18:53 renaissance took place one century
0:18:55 before
0:18:56 and the clearly there was a link but
0:18:59 there's there's something particular
0:19:00 that
0:19:01 why did the English for example
0:19:04 start the scientific like why did they
0:19:06 have such an interest now in what was
0:19:08 then no no no yeah Revolution 19th
0:19:11 century
0:19:15 he said the interaction what do they
0:19:17 want to do build what did they want to
0:19:19 invent
0:19:20 what were they trying to do
0:19:24 it's an engineering thing
0:19:28 scientific religion
0:19:31 why do you think that these universities
0:19:33 now they had newly found scientific
0:19:38 you know departments and what was it why
0:19:41 were they putting so much money into
0:19:42 this thing now if it's 15 16 16th
0:19:45 century in the UK in the Britain for
0:19:47 example
0:19:50 what they're trying to get from doing
0:19:52 science
0:19:53 fifteen sixteen hundreds
0:20:02 okay so it was to do with ballistic
0:20:05 yeah it's like a weaponry
0:20:08 okay so to guns
0:20:10 so obviously in we said before that
0:20:13 natural philosophy was all one subject
0:20:15 there's a book there called we showed it
0:20:17 to you admin's book it's a good natural
0:20:19 philosophy yeah
0:20:20 they used to put everything inside
0:20:22 imagine like you have Optics and you
0:20:24 have you have everything in one book and
0:20:27 then they start breaking it down and
0:20:28 special super specializing afterwards
0:20:31 one of the main reasons is because they
0:20:32 they realize that they need to know how
0:20:34 to use
0:20:35 guns and they wanted to like engineer
0:20:37 guns and stuff like that so it was it
0:20:39 made sense from a governmental
0:20:40 perspective for them to put money into
0:20:42 this thing
0:20:43 so you've mentioned some really key
0:20:45 points here which I think is worth
0:20:46 summarizing
0:20:48 in the 14th century had the Renaissance
0:20:50 very important movement although it
0:20:52 wasn't specifically scientific
0:20:55 it still had scientific traits some you
0:20:58 know critical traits
0:21:00 15th and 16th century had the Scientific
0:21:01 Revolution
0:21:02 18th 19th century had the Industrial
0:21:04 Revolution which because they found coal
0:21:07 and so on
0:21:08 and then afterwards you had
0:21:10 you know world wars and colonialism was
0:21:12 expanded and all these kinds of things
0:21:13 as you know all of that
0:21:15 put the West in a privileged position
0:21:18 now when it comes to science and they
0:21:20 decide to overtake the Muslim World
0:21:22 specifically the Ottomans obviously the
0:21:25 ottomans at that time were the most
0:21:27 notable Islamic
0:21:29 governance at that time
0:21:31 and they started losing Wars now the
0:21:34 ottoman side losing Wars against the the
0:21:36 the the westerners the Russians and so
0:21:38 on
0:21:39 who are not specifically westerners when
0:21:42 they couldn't keep up with their techn
0:21:43 them technologically
0:21:46 weaponry and stuff like that so weapons
0:21:48 didn't change the game really Scientific
0:21:51 Revolution changed the game
0:21:53 the new the new world that they found
0:21:55 imagine they found a new world now you
0:21:57 know they've occupied an entire
0:21:59 hemisphere
0:22:00 that changed the game
0:22:02 the world was never the same again after
0:22:04 that
0:22:05 so this was centuries and centuries so
0:22:07 what Ahmad is saying is that on the one
0:22:09 hand these guys are discovering new
0:22:11 places and colonizing the world and
0:22:14 doing in revolutions and the Muslims are
0:22:16 not and they're not keeping up with them
0:22:18 so that's why this shift took place
0:22:20 where you have now the Western is going
0:22:23 this direction and the Muslims not
0:22:24 keeping up with them
0:22:27 so it's not because oh Islam inhibited
0:22:29 them or because it's not because it's
0:22:32 just the circumstantial factors that
0:22:35 were at play
0:22:36 a lot of them was like okay you've
0:22:38 discovered oil you've discovered that
0:22:39 sorry um coals you've discovered this
0:22:41 you've discovered new continents
0:22:43 it just it wasn't afforded to the
0:22:45 Muslims at that particular time
0:22:49 yeah when he made that Cannon yeah now
0:22:53 can we not say there was like there was
0:22:54 technology so there was why didn't they
0:22:56 not Advance it from there because was
0:22:57 this before we sent you 1453 so it's
0:22:59 15th century so this is way before they
0:23:00 even discovered it so what happened that
0:23:02 they could come to that levels where he
0:23:04 made it with the biggest cannon or
0:23:05 something yeah they had cannons and
0:23:07 stuff and all these are my stuff but I'm
0:23:08 like taking ships on on land literally
0:23:11 so the thing is why did they not pursue
0:23:14 it
0:23:15 this is it's not necessarily that I
0:23:17 didn't pursue it there was there's a
0:23:19 theory to be made that okay like with
0:23:20 certain things like the printing press
0:23:21 and stuff like they had a more cautious
0:23:23 and conservative attitude they were
0:23:26 afraid of it there's an argument to be
0:23:27 made of that but the the stronger
0:23:29 argument is not to do with how badly the
0:23:31 Muslims were operating is to do with how
0:23:34 well the where the West Was operating is
0:23:36 to do what they found
0:23:37 do you know what I'm trying to say it's
0:23:38 like if two people are having a fight
0:23:40 and one of them does really well in
0:23:42 round six
0:23:43 it's not because this guy is now he's
0:23:45 just done really well these people have
0:23:46 just found stuff they're colonizing
0:23:49 they're doing these things so
0:23:50 economically they're going to do better
0:23:52 you know and the Renaissance was
0:23:54 actually if you look at a Thomas Arnold
0:23:56 Walker who wrote the preaching of Islam
0:23:57 he actually says the Renaissance was
0:24:00 as a result of the West finding
0:24:02 information from the Islamic World they
0:24:04 took all the information from the
0:24:05 Islamic world and then they translate
0:24:07 those major translation movement
0:24:09 you that's why you'll find in the
0:24:11 Renaissance thinkers they have a lot of
0:24:14 commonalities with the golden age
0:24:16 Islamic thinkers they clearly read their
0:24:18 Works they're clearly like IBN Russia
0:24:20 for example they use this guy they
0:24:22 proper Annie because he was seen as the
0:24:24 commentator of Aristotle and so on so
0:24:26 they used they used the bencina they
0:24:28 used
0:24:30 that's why you'll find like Rene de Carr
0:24:32 his meditation is very similar to both
0:24:34 his books so there was a clear Islamic
0:24:36 influence but they took
0:24:39 just like the Muslims took the Greek
0:24:41 stuff and translated it in the third
0:24:42 Century which is called the Greek
0:24:44 translation movement the westerners took
0:24:46 the Islamic stuff and translated in the
0:24:48 14th century and they used it so it's
0:24:50 always cultural borrowing cultural
0:24:52 boring and there was something to be
0:24:54 said about the fact with where
0:24:56 everything is geographically placed
0:24:58 the countries which done the best
0:25:01 are those which had the most interaction
0:25:04 with other civilizations
0:25:06 and that's just strategic placement
0:25:08 a lot of it is just to do with where
0:25:10 they are geographically what access do
0:25:12 they have
0:25:13 do you see what I'm trying to say so
0:25:15 that's there is there is something we
0:25:16 said about that as well
0:25:18 any questions
0:25:20 are you saying that the reason
0:25:22 the
0:25:25 Islamic empire didn't progress is
0:25:27 because of the
0:25:29 uh it's because not because
0:25:32 um they were banned but because of the
0:25:33 advancements and tactical placement and
0:25:36 chance of the West yeah I mean what
0:25:39 Ahmad was saying is that basically
0:25:40 there's a variety of circumstances the
0:25:42 lack of which I've just mentioned there
0:25:43 some of which might show you know
0:25:47 lack of action from the Muslims but I
0:25:50 think more of them show just a set of
0:25:53 very favorable circumstances for the
0:25:54 west but but couldn't you say that yeah
0:25:57 if we're saying it from an Islamic
0:25:58 perspective yeah that the whole the sole
0:26:01 reason for this is because of uh of a
0:26:03 wine that has inflicted the Muslims I.E
0:26:05 they just became too relaxed and
0:26:08 comfortable in their life that they had
0:26:09 become the superpower Hollow so we don't
0:26:11 need to do Jihad anymore we don't need
0:26:13 to expand we don't need it yeah and this
0:26:15 is yeah and this is this is what said
0:26:19 interestingly
0:26:21 I'm sure a few guys it's like one of the
0:26:24 most important books in probably in
0:26:26 Arabic
0:26:27 and he said that the rise and fall of
0:26:30 Empires a book called the rise of fall
0:26:31 of Empires by by Gibbons and so I think
0:26:33 we've got it here and they basically
0:26:35 they both say the same thing which is
0:26:36 that as you've just mentioned when the
0:26:39 when a when a civilization has reached
0:26:41 an apex
0:26:43 when it's achieved so much it becomes
0:26:45 complacent people become lavish they
0:26:47 start relaxing now they start becoming
0:26:50 gluttonous they start becoming desirous
0:26:52 of worldly things and so on like you
0:26:54 just remember when and so on like you
0:26:55 just mentioned so as a result of that
0:26:57 what you've just done all these
0:26:59 victories
0:27:00 like you know 1453 the biggest Victory
0:27:03 one of the hugest victories in human
0:27:05 history undoubtedly like it saw the end
0:27:08 of the Roman Empire which is one of the
0:27:09 longest lasting empires of all human
0:27:11 beings
0:27:12 and you know there's a Hadith on it and
0:27:15 they just won and these kind of things
0:27:16 it's no surprise that after Such Great
0:27:20 Heights there was a decline because that
0:27:22 goes in line with that kind of theory
0:27:24 which is even khaldoon and Edward
0:27:25 Gibbons and stuff like that which is
0:27:27 that there's a rise and fall of great
0:27:29 Empires and you you fall most when
0:27:32 you've risen the highest yeah that's
0:27:33 usually what happens
0:27:37 you know on a historical Point actually
0:27:39 yeah
0:27:40 um when we contextualize it the Ottomans
0:27:42 were not actually as wealthy as the
0:27:44 models and when you look at Britain
0:27:47 because it's directly relevant Britain
0:27:49 one of the country's main countries that
0:27:50 they colonize and directly benefit from
0:27:52 was India moral India and being one of
0:27:56 the wealthiest if not the wealthiest
0:27:58 Nation at the time globally right
0:28:01 um like in terms of economy India I
0:28:04 think to the global economy contribute
0:28:06 25 wow right it's a very large
0:28:09 percentage so now imagine one small
0:28:10 country like uh Great Britain one small
0:28:13 you know piece of land
0:28:15 colonizes that over the space of over a
0:28:18 few hundred years it's going to give
0:28:19 them immense power immense wealth yes
0:28:20 and that's just one example the slave
0:28:22 trade comes in turns out you know the
0:28:25 whole triangular rule Etc all of this
0:28:27 stuff comes in and then that argument is
0:28:30 given a lot of strength yeah yeah
0:28:31 because Britain then became very very
0:28:33 significant power even compared to the
0:28:36 other European countries that are around
0:28:38 yes I think that's a brilliant point and
0:28:40 I think that's exactly right and when
0:28:41 you consider we mentioned this point
0:28:43 before
0:28:44 uh but I'll mention it again because
0:28:46 sometimes it's important to re uh
0:28:48 mention these things when Islam expands
0:28:50 or when it has expanded you know and
0:28:52 this is what it does give us Credit One
0:28:55 of the guys who's actually helped us
0:28:56 here the professor at the University of
0:28:58 Oxford or lecturer
0:29:00 he made this point now it stuck with me
0:29:02 it's very powerful point he said when
0:29:04 Islam expanded it's not like the
0:29:06 resources moved from everywhere else and
0:29:07 went to Mecca
0:29:09 but when the West expanded it was the
0:29:12 case that the resources moved from
0:29:13 everywhere else and came back to London
0:29:14 for example
0:29:16 and so now it's I find it one of the
0:29:18 most pathetic of irony is like well let
0:29:19 me give you an example when I speak to
0:29:20 Jordan Peterson for the first time
0:29:22 and he's mentioning so what kind of
0:29:24 countries are in the top 10 of GDP per
0:29:26 capita or whatever it may be
0:29:29 from the Muslim countries and I
0:29:30 mentioned four countries which is good
0:29:32 enough right you should be considering
0:29:34 that Muslims are one one-third of the
0:29:36 less than one one-third of the world's
0:29:37 population
0:29:38 and he said I don't I mentioned three
0:29:40 oil rich countries you know the UAE you
0:29:43 know Saudi Arabia Qatar he said no I
0:29:45 don't know why I don't know why you're
0:29:47 mentioning those is there either I
0:29:48 wouldn't include them but my question
0:29:50 maybe I didn't get the opportunity to
0:29:52 say this but I'll say it now is why why
0:29:55 do we have a problem
0:29:57 with mentioning countries which are
0:29:58 Muslim countries
0:30:00 being oil rich countries when they've
0:30:02 extracted their own resources and we
0:30:04 have no problem
0:30:05 with the West extracting other people's
0:30:07 resources and taking it to them
0:30:09 do you see the point it's like okay so
0:30:10 what you're you have a problem with me
0:30:12 adding into the list countries which
0:30:15 they take their own oil and use it but
0:30:17 you don't have a problem with me putting
0:30:19 on to list countries which took human
0:30:21 beings and put them
0:30:24 and then having and the um having a go
0:30:27 out the one who earned it with his own
0:30:28 hands exactly and so the the if you look
0:30:30 at the why are the streets cleaner and
0:30:32 the buildings higher
0:30:34 in the West
0:30:36 and actually that's the second part I've
0:30:38 just mentioned is questionable because
0:30:39 most high rises I mean the UK is not
0:30:42 even on top 10 of high-rises
0:30:45 well I mean just to let you know they
0:30:46 don't have high rises the most countries
0:30:48 the high rises uh actually the buyers in
0:30:51 the fourth number four the UAE is number
0:30:52 four uh what do you call it um another
0:30:55 place in the top 10 is a
0:30:57 Singapore or something no but they've
0:30:59 got a lot of like China's got high rises
0:31:01 Japan have got a lot of high rises okay
0:31:02 yeah but the point is is this the
0:31:04 streets are cleaner and there's more
0:31:06 facilities in Western Europe than many
0:31:08 parts of the Muslim World why well it's
0:31:10 because of this Legacy here and I've
0:31:12 mentioned this point and I want you to
0:31:13 remember these things because they're
0:31:14 very important
0:31:16 it's no coincidence that the Middle East
0:31:19 and Latin America have a very similar
0:31:22 economy
0:31:23 it is no coincidence because both of
0:31:26 them have had the same Colonial
0:31:27 treatment
0:31:30 so once again it's this narrative can
0:31:32 easily be dismissed anyways going back
0:31:33 to the point
0:31:36 um when you when you when you understand
0:31:37 the history behind it
0:31:39 we can easily answer these questions and
0:31:41 Allah mentioned the Quran
0:31:47 these are the days which we alternate
0:31:49 between the people it's like it's not as
0:31:50 if Islam is saying that you're always
0:31:52 going to be rich are you always going to
0:31:53 be uh powerful no it's there's going to
0:31:55 be days when these ones are going to be
0:31:57 more powerful than these to test you to
0:31:59 see who's you know so the but it's very
0:32:02 interesting because you always be
0:32:04 surprised this is one of the biggest
0:32:06 obstacles for some people accepting
0:32:08 Islam especially people at the middle
0:32:09 class
0:32:10 High echelons of the socioeconomic
0:32:12 standing because they feel like why
0:32:13 should I
0:32:14 and this is mentioned the Quran actually
0:32:17 uh I cannot forget the benefits
0:32:23 yeah that one for your friend yeah but I
0:32:25 was thinking about uh the one where
0:32:27 Allah mentions about
0:32:30 um about uh if
0:32:32 any Israel mentioning say that if it was
0:32:35 any good in it we would have done it
0:32:37 first
0:32:39 uh
0:32:41 um yeah
0:32:45 foreign
0:33:02 have come to it first
0:33:05 yeah right yeah
0:33:09 but the first part is
0:33:10 these guys what do you mean These Guys
0:33:13 these guys who are lower than us
0:33:15 did you get it and this is why there's a
0:33:17 verse in Quran as well
0:33:19 which is in sorted
0:33:27 very interesting because when I started
0:33:28 looking at fear in this do not make us
0:33:30 at trial a tribulation for the
0:33:33 disbelievers
0:33:34 uh I think somebody mentions that one of
0:33:38 the ways you can become a trial for
0:33:39 disbelievers is by losing in water them
0:33:41 because they will think to themselves
0:33:43 how can we adopt the religion of the
0:33:45 losers
0:33:46 so this idea of being winning and losing
0:33:48 is a big thing
0:33:49 it's difficult for individuals who think
0:33:52 they're better than you to accept your
0:33:54 way of life it's really as simple as
0:33:55 that
0:33:56 I've got more money than him why should
0:33:58 I follow him we're living in a cleaner
0:34:00 environment why should I look at that
0:34:01 you go to their country go to my why why
0:34:03 should I follow these guys
0:34:06 used to say like it should have come to
0:34:08 us if anyone wise it come to because
0:34:11 they have this uh security complex yeah
0:34:14 it's like you should have come to us why
0:34:15 is it coming to someone like
0:34:17 um and that's why the prophet saws in
0:34:19 the very very famous Hadith
0:34:23 the majority of people that will come to
0:34:25 Islam other are the working class
0:34:28 because they don't have that Spirit
0:34:30 complex so the majority of people are
0:34:32 the working class and heraculous asked
0:34:34 what what is the prophet Mass following
0:34:36 is it is it higher class people or is it
0:34:39 upper class or is it the working class
0:34:41 and also fiance said it was the working
0:34:43 class and he recognized through that
0:34:45 that he was a true Prophet because he
0:34:47 realizes that this is the kind of
0:34:49 movement where the majority of people
0:34:51 are going to like the Working Class
0:34:53 People accept it but the the top five
0:34:55 percent if you like the high value
0:34:57 so-called whatever they they feel like
0:34:59 they don't need it on a practical level
0:35:02 and I'm going on a bit with this but if
0:35:03 you if we do that on the streets and we
0:35:05 take a you know a thing and start
0:35:07 speaking to the people
0:35:08 the areas which you do the best in is
0:35:10 other working-class areas Kilburn this
0:35:13 place that place if we go to king king
0:35:15 sorry um Nice Bridge
0:35:17 he started doing that one there
0:35:19 or in a place which is a Chelsea well
0:35:21 like you'll get the worst results you
0:35:23 will get the worst results it's very
0:35:25 difficult they feel like they're better
0:35:26 than you
0:35:28 and it is is a thing which is part of
0:35:30 The Human Experience that's why there's
0:35:32 police brutality because police people
0:35:33 they believe that they're Above the Law
0:35:35 they think they've got extra power as a
0:35:37 fitness in itself but that's why we make
0:35:39 on them we ask Allah to make the fitna
0:35:42 go less
0:35:43 that's why in debates and discussions in
0:35:45 the Habib versus Kona and these kind of
0:35:47 things it's important that we win I'll
0:35:49 be honest because it's a fitness for
0:35:50 these guys to see if they're on the
0:35:52 truth why are they why are they winning
0:35:54 why are we winning
0:35:55 it's a fit it's actually a fitness
0:35:57 so um look the new Aces have made a
0:35:59 whole argument about it
0:36:01 so look these guys the science is not as
0:36:03 good as our signs
0:36:04 so why should we follow them
0:36:07 now Joshua says something on the
0:36:09 classical narrative and the classical
0:36:10 narrative is
0:36:12 there was a decline in the 10th to 12th
0:36:14 century of Islamic sciences and he's
0:36:17 saying no it's not like that so he says
0:36:18 the following he says does anyone read
0:36:20 this because I feel like I'm reading too
0:36:22 much
0:36:23 foreign
0:36:27 the classical narrative
0:36:30 okay okay yeah there is
0:36:35 just tell me when to stop yeah now let's
0:36:37 read the whole thing uh so the classical
0:36:39 narrative goes on to postulate that from
0:36:42 then on Europe had no need for Arabic
0:36:44 scientific material and that the Islamic
0:36:46 scientific tradition was beginning to
0:36:48 decline under the onslaught of the works
0:36:51 of gazelle of Brazil and thus was no
0:36:54 longer deemed important by other
0:36:55 cultures in this in the grand scheme of
0:36:58 things the European Renaissance was then
0:37:00 characterized as a deliberate attempt to
0:37:02 bypass the Islamic scientific material
0:37:04 in other in another Act of appropriation
0:37:06 so so to speak and to reconnect directly
0:37:09 with the Greco-Roman Legacy where almost
0:37:13 all science and philosophy began and
0:37:15 where the European Renaissance could
0:37:17 find its Wellsprings okay brilliant so
0:37:19 this is the classical narrative we heard
0:37:22 that with uh what's his name uh deGrasse
0:37:25 Tyson do you remember the gross Tyson I
0:37:27 made a refutational video against him
0:37:29 but he got it from here you see you see
0:37:31 now we know where everyone's getting
0:37:33 their stuff
0:37:34 he got it from this
0:37:35 so they believed that the beginning of
0:37:38 the end was uh obviously when when did
0:37:41 he die
0:37:44 no uh in Gregorian
0:37:47 you cannot forget this day
0:37:49 one one one one
0:37:51 this one died one one one okay so this
0:37:56 is uh what then 12th century right
0:37:59 so they're saying like I said the 12th
0:38:01 Century doesn't decline and they
0:38:03 attribute it to a Teflon philosopher the
0:38:06 encouragement of the philosophers
0:38:07 because they're saying look razali he
0:38:09 came out and he's attacking
0:38:11 montec and falsafa and all these things
0:38:15 and they bring these obscure quotes and
0:38:17 stuff like that and say that's really
0:38:19 when the Islamic things like they stop
0:38:21 caring about science because there was a
0:38:23 religious attack on it
0:38:26 now obviously before we get to it what
0:38:28 are some of the problems with this idea
0:38:32 why not he was just
0:38:35 Refuge philosophy a certain type of
0:38:38 philosophy so it's not really science
0:38:39 anyway okay
0:38:41 so so give me more
0:38:44 give me more he's probably You could
0:38:46 argue that he was even the advocate of
0:38:47 science I guess how because he argue I
0:38:50 mean he uh
0:38:52 apostrophe that people should like
0:38:53 Advocate like reason and thinking and
0:38:57 stuff like that and like uh explore I
0:39:00 don't know so I don't really see how it
0:39:02 correlates to a decline
0:39:03 him being the decline in science I don't
0:39:06 receive the correlation yeah I mean
0:39:07 first of all this is material itself
0:39:09 yeah uh you'll find these obscure quotes
0:39:12 of him saying that you shouldn't study
0:39:14 mathematics or stuff like that yeah
0:39:16 but that is all contextual he's saying
0:39:18 you shouldn't study mathematics in the
0:39:19 context of from these guys who are going
0:39:21 to try and bring you to atheism
0:39:23 but clearly was engaging in philosophy
0:39:26 himself clearly believed in I mean he's
0:39:29 from school he believed in you know
0:39:32 engaging critical things I mean
0:39:37 is another
0:39:39 I mean so it's kind of ridiculous to
0:39:41 cite him as the example
0:39:43 you know which is that they believe that
0:39:45 the critical inquiry is the first thing
0:39:46 you have to do as a worship you have to
0:39:49 see all the other World Views and see
0:39:51 which one's true and which one's false
0:39:53 so this idea is that's the first issue
0:39:57 that's not there in his writings
0:39:59 the second thing is that and this is
0:40:02 what Ronald numbers mentions and
0:40:03 remember this is called the history of
0:40:05 Western Civilization that's the book and
0:40:06 I'll just remembered it so red book is
0:40:09 is an important one
0:40:11 um it's called the history of Western
0:40:13 Civilization although a history of
0:40:15 Western science yeah and he there's a
0:40:18 whole section that he mentions like
0:40:20 Islamic sciences and stuff like that
0:40:22 this is the misconception is that and I
0:40:24 think you'll mention it George Charlotte
0:40:25 because you mentioned the same thing the
0:40:27 Islamic science it ended in 12th century
0:40:30 but we know and he mentions examples the
0:40:33 observatories and so like the
0:40:34 observators continued 13th 14th century
0:40:37 15th century and so on that Islamic
0:40:39 science continued up until the 15 16th
0:40:41 century to operate a very high level
0:40:43 so that's the first thing it's like if
0:40:44 this was such a turning point then why
0:40:46 did Islamic science continue after last
0:40:49 Ali
0:40:50 that's a very
0:40:51 glaring question so the idea that it
0:40:53 stopped in 12th century in the first
0:40:55 place is problematic
0:40:57 and other problems which I think George
0:41:00 Oliver mentions
0:41:03 foreign
0:41:07 classical narrative creates the
0:41:09 impression that the birth of Islamic
0:41:10 science took place
0:41:12 the early period of our best at times
0:41:14 mainly during the latter period of the
0:41:15 8th century and the early period ninth
0:41:17 ninth and as a result one of the more
0:41:19 following processes of transformation
0:41:22 it continues so when we examine that
0:41:25 translation movement so basically
0:41:27 sorry
0:41:28 the question is
0:41:31 there was a translation movement that
0:41:32 took place in the 8th century two three
0:41:34 hundred years of the problem
0:41:36 which basically this translation who
0:41:38 knows about translation movement what is
0:41:40 this translation movement
0:41:41 degree transition yeah what happened
0:41:43 there was that the library uh that I
0:41:48 think at the time of the
0:41:50 Khalifa I forgot the Khalifa it was
0:41:53 basically a big transition from Greek
0:41:55 Works to Arabic okay so a lot of uh
0:41:57 Aristotle's work on Plato's work will
0:41:59 Translate into Arabic yeah and then that
0:42:01 led to the Muslims reading them and
0:42:03 obviously being Avid readers a lot of
0:42:04 them read them and adopted loads of
0:42:06 their views so theologically uh who
0:42:09 really was influenced by them
0:42:17 as well and later on in the rushed very
0:42:20 much like you know advocate of that yeah
0:42:24 in fact he was staunch
0:42:27 against those who attacked
0:42:30 the Aristotelian method
0:42:32 there's a very close connection between
0:42:34 by the way John Hoover writes a paper on
0:42:37 it
0:42:38 I'm not sure if you know this but if you
0:42:40 look at some of the ideas
0:42:42 some of the things he believes in like
0:42:44 even take me are clear and he Praises
0:42:46 him very highly
0:42:47 even even take me says he's the of the
0:42:49 philosopher he's the best one
0:42:51 uh why because he he attacks obviously
0:42:54 as you know who does he attack who's the
0:42:56 most attack
0:42:57 s
0:43:01 you have to have to fallacy for the
0:43:03 encourage of the philosophers
0:43:05 which is the incoherence of the
0:43:07 incoherence
0:43:09 so obviously they found Common Ground
0:43:11 there but there's a there's more there's
0:43:13 like a lot of the arguments for example
0:43:15 the the issue of canal
0:43:19 and all these things that they had a
0:43:21 very similar opinion on on that anyway
0:43:24 point is
0:43:26 saliva says the question first of all is
0:43:29 why did the Romans and Persians not do
0:43:31 with the translated texts what the
0:43:32 Islamic civilization did because what
0:43:34 they're saying is this
0:43:36 they're saying you've got this Greek
0:43:37 translation movement Greek is Greece is
0:43:39 part of the West
0:43:40 so all of your success this is another
0:43:43 argument now all of your success is
0:43:45 based on the Greeks because the Greeks
0:43:47 they gave you the Aristotle they gave
0:43:48 you Plato and then you took him and you
0:43:50 start doing what you want with them
0:43:51 you know your Pythagoras and this one
0:43:54 and that one so the first question is if
0:43:56 it was so intuitive
0:43:59 okay
0:44:00 to develop these uh Greek translated
0:44:03 texts and why did not the Persians and
0:44:05 the Romans do with those translated
0:44:07 Works what the islamicates
0:44:11 did the Muslims did at that particular
0:44:13 time so that's the first question
0:44:16 the second question which is very
0:44:17 important I think you need to remember
0:44:20 this one
0:44:22 but this is what George Sullivan says
0:44:23 this is when we examine the translation
0:44:24 Movement we find translated such as
0:44:27 lunane
0:44:28 uh searching searching for classical
0:44:31 Greek scientific texts all over the
0:44:32 Byzantine domain and sometimes failing
0:44:35 to find what was needed under such
0:44:37 conditions when books were not taught or
0:44:39 used in wide circulation
0:44:41 how could contact have produced any
0:44:43 positive effects or transfer of
0:44:45 knowledge in other words just because
0:44:47 there was translation movement it
0:44:48 doesn't mean everything was translated
0:44:50 there were some things we should not
0:44:51 translate it yeah
0:44:53 then he continues he says where did his
0:44:55 usual collaboration learn his astronomy
0:44:58 so that he could produce together with
0:45:00 fazari a translation of a Sanskrit which
0:45:04 was complete during the caliphate of
0:45:06 Mansour
0:45:07 so he's saying here once again there's
0:45:09 an issue if you say it's all about
0:45:11 translations and why how could it be the
0:45:12 case
0:45:13 that you have he gives examples
0:45:16 learn his own astronomy so that he can
0:45:19 produce together with uh
0:45:20 fazol or Fazal
0:45:22 a translation of Sanskrit uh whatever it
0:45:26 is called here which completed which is
0:45:28 completely during the caliphate of a
0:45:30 Mansour
0:45:31 now he continues
0:45:35 and this is I think this shows the two
0:45:36 arguments yeah your answer oh okay
0:45:43 two arguments number one he's saying
0:45:45 there's things that are not translated
0:45:47 number two there were things
0:45:49 which were translated from elsewhere
0:45:52 number three
0:45:54 can someone read this one because it's
0:45:55 long
0:46:01 okay actually don't read it's too long
0:46:03 it's too long I think it was it will be
0:46:05 too long just read what is me because
0:46:07 this one's a very good one which is me
0:46:13 during the same early period that is
0:46:15 during the same early period that is
0:46:16 during the reign of animal Moon
0:46:19 we've also witnessed the creation of the
0:46:20 new discipline of algebra by by Muhammad
0:46:23 Musa
0:46:26 already in a mature format treating for
0:46:28 example the field of second degree
0:46:30 equations in its most general form this
0:46:32 happened before the translation of the
0:46:33 work of diphonitis and other Greek
0:46:36 sources so this is very important
0:46:38 there's clear evidence me
0:46:43 he that he was engaged in independent
0:46:46 knowledge production because the
0:46:48 translation of the works of the Greeks
0:46:50 in the same field were not there and
0:46:52 moreover you could even argue that he he
0:46:55 didn't take even with those translations
0:46:57 what how has been brought forward in
0:46:59 terms of algebra was completely
0:47:00 different anyway
0:47:02 it was new so Muhammad is me who is so
0:47:07 instrumental because from him you have
0:47:09 algorithms you have algebra you have all
0:47:11 these things like this camera now is
0:47:13 being used and this phone all of it is
0:47:15 based on how this means Works basically
0:47:17 UAE simplified one of these one of the
0:47:20 greatest Minds when it comes to
0:47:21 mathematics but he had nothing to do he
0:47:24 couldn't you couldn't say it was taken
0:47:25 from the Greeks because it was
0:47:26 independent knowledge production and
0:47:28 moreover the Greeks Works hadn't even
0:47:29 been translated yet this is a very
0:47:30 powerful argument
0:47:32 because what we're responding to here
0:47:34 responding to the fact that they're
0:47:35 saying well actually the only the only
0:47:37 way you can do good is if you take from
0:47:40 our guys we're saying well actually no
0:47:42 that's not the case because
0:47:44 one of the best examples of someone done
0:47:46 well and he didn't take anything from
0:47:47 your guys
0:47:49 you could also just say that your guys
0:47:50 can only do well by taking our guys yeah
0:47:54 and and that's the mature approach the
0:47:56 mature approach is that we we admit
0:47:58 there's been cultural borrowing we admit
0:47:59 this but you have to admit it as well
0:48:01 you admit this is just as you guys did
0:48:03 it in the Renaissance we did it in the
0:48:04 second third Century ah or eighth ninth
0:48:08 Century uh Gregorian calendar it
0:48:10 happened but there's two things to say
0:48:12 that uh there's no independent knowledge
0:48:15 production that all we need is your
0:48:17 religion and your culture and your
0:48:19 civilization this is where we can now
0:48:21 fight back with these examples of
0:48:23 independent knowledge production and
0:48:25 that's why Georgetown was fighting back
0:48:26 with it
0:48:27 you know
0:48:32 so Robert Merton he says in this direct
0:48:35 fashion religion sanctioned science
0:48:36 raising so this is another Merton very
0:48:39 famous sociologist and this is now
0:48:41 coming into the Modern Age
0:48:44 he's actually he believes that religion
0:48:47 facilitated and sanctioned a scientific
0:48:50 discovery so he says that in this direct
0:48:52 fashion religion sanctioned science
0:48:53 raising the social estimation of those
0:48:55 Pursuit scientific investigations
0:48:57 with the associated intensification and
0:48:59 spread of interest in such Pursuits
0:49:03 foreign
0:49:04 he's saying that like and the example I
0:49:07 think he uses from what I remember he
0:49:09 uses
0:49:10 um the Protestant Reformation
0:49:13 he used the personal information so he
0:49:15 says that Protestant reformation and you
0:49:17 will know Max Weber has written a book a
0:49:20 very famous an important one to know
0:49:22 which is called the Protestant ethic
0:49:24 and the whole thesis of that book Max
0:49:26 Weber is seen this
0:49:28 one of the founding fathers of Sociology
0:49:30 in the western world
0:49:32 and his the whole book was the the
0:49:35 process in ethic the whole idea of it
0:49:37 was the Protestant Reformation do you
0:49:39 know when it took place anyone
0:49:42 14th 15th century oh no 15 16. 16th
0:49:46 century so for example Martin Luther not
0:49:49 Martin Luther King Martin Luther who's
0:49:51 uh into German Martin Luther he wrote a
0:49:54 book called the 95 thesis in the year
0:49:57 1517.
0:49:58 so we're talking about 16th century here
0:50:01 then and uh basically just just a quick
0:50:03 one what happened was you what did you
0:50:06 have what institution was he critical of
0:50:09 yeah the Catholic church and so on what
0:50:11 kind of criticism did he have
0:50:13 uh the corruption and stuff like that
0:50:15 yeah indulgences the money indulgences
0:50:18 yeah yeah and all these kind of things
0:50:19 yeah yeah and he was accusing uh you
0:50:21 know the pope and stuff of corruption as
0:50:23 you mentioned what did that lead to
0:50:25 Reformation the Reformation what else
0:50:27 did it lead to
0:50:30 the Church of England here in England
0:50:31 and other churches elsewhere in Western
0:50:33 Europe
0:50:34 and it led to war
0:50:36 one of the biggest Wars in European
0:50:37 history that no one wants to speak about
0:50:39 do you know what it's called
0:50:41 the third year war and listen by the way
0:50:43 the third year war was a great example
0:50:45 especially when uh detractors of Islam
0:50:48 they come and say well you guys have
0:50:49 shias and Sundays attacking each other
0:50:51 killing uh Catholics and Protestants
0:50:54 were killing each other the 30-year war
0:50:55 on a scale that has never been recorded
0:50:57 ever in Islamic history is one of the
0:50:59 biggest Wars that has ever taken place
0:51:01 in human history I don't even know what
0:51:03 the death toll is but it's one of the
0:51:05 biggest if you Google today the 30-year
0:51:07 War it's worth Googling
0:51:09 what is a 30 year one that you see the
0:51:11 Protestants of Catholic killing each
0:51:12 other on the basis of these things the
0:51:14 things like you know 95 thesis
0:51:16 corruption indulgences the pope and this
0:51:18 and and Independence that they want from
0:51:19 the from from the Catholic Church
0:51:21 so anyway the point is is that Max Faber
0:51:24 is see what he's saying here is that
0:51:26 when the process of reformation took
0:51:27 place
0:51:28 and the people were no longer confined
0:51:31 to the Catholic church then people start
0:51:34 to have a different attitude towards
0:51:35 religion he says that they started to
0:51:38 try and raise money make money
0:51:41 make money so that they can fund their
0:51:43 relations so they had a religious
0:51:45 incentive
0:51:47 the theory goes and it's a very famous
0:51:48 Theory one of the most famous in
0:51:50 sociology
0:51:51 they're trying to raise money for their
0:51:53 religious institutions
0:51:54 so that he says was actually the
0:51:56 beginning of capitalism
0:51:59 he says capitalism started here
0:52:03 this triggered capitalism
0:52:06 you know so this is his theory this is
0:52:10 his theory and there's a big discussion
0:52:12 if you compare Karl Marx and Weber
0:52:14 there's a lot of interesting interesting
0:52:16 discussions their tube their two
0:52:19 theorists which you should you should
0:52:20 study in conjunction with each other
0:52:22 because if you look at the sociological
0:52:24 theories of car marks obviously the
0:52:26 Surplus value we talked about Marxism
0:52:27 stuff like that but Weber says there's a
0:52:29 different kind of exploitation going on
0:52:30 as well which was the exploitation of
0:52:34 relationships
0:52:37 he called the capitalist system an iron
0:52:39 cage very interesting you should watch
0:52:41 you should read some of his stuff anyway
0:52:43 point is is that the reason why I'm
0:52:45 bringing this to your attention in
0:52:46 relation to science is because there is
0:52:48 an opposite Theory to the theory of
0:52:51 religion Inhibitors inhibit science the
0:52:54 opposite theory is in fact Robert Merton
0:52:55 is saying religion gives people the
0:52:58 incentive to to engage in industry and
0:53:02 and create science and it's no
0:53:05 he would say I'm not sure what yeah I'm
0:53:07 not saying I agree with the disagree you
0:53:09 say it's no coincidence that after the
0:53:11 Protestant Reformation you had the
0:53:12 Scientific Revolution happened in the
0:53:14 same century
0:53:16 says why is it if you know if you're
0:53:19 saying that the Catholic because what
0:53:20 they bring
0:53:21 especially on the other side is what do
0:53:23 you think what what is the most notable
0:53:24 Christian example
0:53:26 beginning with G
0:53:28 yeah Galileo they bring Galileo he
0:53:31 wasn't killed he was put in prison yeah
0:53:32 and there was a book called Galileo goes
0:53:35 to trial
0:53:36 I think once again Ross uh his name is
0:53:38 Ronald numbers
0:53:39 and uh I forget I forget the other guy
0:53:41 but it's a book called Galileo goes to
0:53:42 trial okay and the the arguments I think
0:53:46 that Ronald Lumber's is making is that
0:53:48 actually
0:53:49 this is this does not representative of
0:53:52 the entire because we can easily
0:53:53 caricature it we can say this is the
0:53:56 argument they're making
0:53:57 that Christianity inhibits science the
0:54:00 crow there is a big tension between the
0:54:02 Christian church
0:54:04 and science Robert Merton is saying but
0:54:07 if that's the case why did the
0:54:08 Scientific Revolution happen after the
0:54:09 personal information number one
0:54:12 it's true to say okay that there was a
0:54:15 decline in church membership let's say
0:54:16 in Christianity and religious
0:54:18 religiosity Christian religiosity at the
0:54:20 same time as the enlightenment when did
0:54:22 the enlightenment happen
0:54:25 17th 18th century yeah so it started in
0:54:28 the 17th century but what else happened
0:54:30 the Enlightenment what was
0:54:32 now in the atmosphere which wasn't there
0:54:34 before
0:54:36 no no Renaissance 14th century
0:54:37 Enlightenment 17th century
0:54:39 you had to Empire but what was there
0:54:42 what what did the enlightenment produce
0:54:44 sinkers
0:54:46 huh I think thinkers but what did they
0:54:49 produce works
0:54:51 now that we this is after the Scientific
0:54:53 Revolution now yes there you have it
0:54:55 okay so
0:54:56 liberalism you know you had these
0:54:59 ideologies came about like communism
0:55:01 wasn't a thing before Karl Marx really
0:55:03 came into the equation he formalized the
0:55:05 thing you know uh all these kinds of
0:55:08 ideologies from the 17th century onwards
0:55:10 then you have all these competing
0:55:11 theories so you can easily say religions
0:55:15 start to be substituted with them this
0:55:16 became the substitute for the morality
0:55:18 of religion
0:55:19 so it's difficult to uh to align a
0:55:22 causation with this particular thing uh
0:55:25 basically I'll conclude with this we
0:55:27 finished almost I know it's been quite
0:55:28 long today
0:55:30 another thing which is very important is
0:55:31 someone okay Darwinism obviously they
0:55:34 use him as an example over and over
0:55:36 again
0:55:38 when did you write his book anyone
0:55:39 remember
0:55:45 19th century
0:55:48 1852 1854. that was a guess but it was
0:55:52 he wrote was origins of sushi it's the
0:55:55 same year I think that Heinz started as
0:55:57 a company
0:55:58 you catch up I I don't know why it's a
0:56:01 trivial fact but
0:56:05 yeah
0:56:07 but so Darwin is used used by a new
0:56:10 atheists and he's used because he he was
0:56:13 there's Pop there's parts of his uh
0:56:16 written works where he talks about being
0:56:17 a disbeliever
0:56:18 but if you really see why he became with
0:56:20 this believer it's not because of this
0:56:21 science stuff
0:56:23 it's because of theodicy yes it's
0:56:25 because of the problem of evil which we
0:56:27 mentioned which we have to do a whole
0:56:29 session about problem of evil he
0:56:30 believed he had I think a disabled child
0:56:32 or something like that so he was like
0:56:34 how could God allow this to happen he
0:56:36 has a traumatic experience and he I
0:56:38 think he left Faith or something whether
0:56:39 he stayed as a disbeliever or not it's
0:56:42 something contested but what I will read
0:56:44 is
0:56:45 Brooke mentions uh I think his name is I
0:56:48 think I forget his name is the first
0:56:49 name of this guy but he writes with
0:56:50 Ronald numbers yeah
0:56:52 uh he mentioned Darwin turned 40 in
0:56:56 1849. long after developing his theory
0:56:59 of evolution by natural selection
0:57:01 and Brooke I agree with that the main
0:57:03 reason Darwin gave for his unbelief
0:57:06 derived not from his role he gave to
0:57:08 natural causes in explaining the Origin
0:57:10 of Species like other Victorian thinkers
0:57:12 Darwin reacted strongly against
0:57:14 Evangelical Christian preaching on
0:57:15 Heaven and Hell
0:57:18 this is what Brooke is saying and Brooke
0:57:19 is a
0:57:20 top-tier historian of Science in the
0:57:23 West
0:57:24 you know Richard Dawkins AC Grayling
0:57:26 Daniel Dennett are not these people are
0:57:28 uh not any of that stuff so he's a
0:57:31 Authority
0:57:33 writing in a book and he's saying the
0:57:35 reason why he's his conclusion because
0:57:37 there's controversy I'm saying his
0:57:38 conclusion is not my conclusion his
0:57:40 conclusion is that he didn't do it
0:57:42 because of the evolution Theory
0:57:45 um
0:57:47 now I think there's another argument you
0:57:50 can make which the argument I make and
0:57:52 I've written this in the book that I've
0:57:53 written called the scientific delusions
0:57:54 of the new atheist which is free of
0:57:57 charge in the sapiens issue uh website
0:57:59 you can get it
0:58:01 is that new atheism itself inhibits
0:58:04 science
0:58:05 because remember the argument they make
0:58:07 is a religion here besides but you can
0:58:09 argue that new atheism inhibit science
0:58:11 and I'll tell you why
0:58:13 it's clear
0:58:15 um
0:58:20 okay yep so I'm not gonna read all that
0:58:22 but basically uh let me explain
0:58:25 especially in the field of biology
0:58:28 darwinian theory of evolution has become
0:58:30 almost a religion okay
0:58:33 as a result now scientists who have not
0:58:36 got a dog in the fight they're not
0:58:37 interested in religion they don't even
0:58:40 Believers yeah
0:58:42 they feel intimidated and these are
0:58:45 postulations are these are assertions
0:58:47 I'm making but I'm going to put back
0:58:49 them up they feel intimidated
0:58:52 to engage scientifically
0:58:55 and undermine
0:58:57 known darwinian assumptions
0:59:01 I'll give you one I think the best
0:59:03 example I can give the best example I
0:59:05 can give
0:59:06 is this website that has been cited by
0:59:10 by
0:59:11 Dennis Noble
0:59:14 who is seen as a foremost biologist in
0:59:16 the University of Oxford Dr Denison
0:59:20 and James Shapiro no not Ben Shapiro
0:59:22 that's a different uh person
0:59:25 James Shapiro okay both of them started
0:59:28 this website called
0:59:28 thirdwayevolution.com
0:59:30 now this website is peer-reviewed
0:59:33 for all people who are basically saying
0:59:35 look you've got the first way which is
0:59:36 creationism
0:59:37 the idea of creationism like God created
0:59:39 everything simultaneously you have the
0:59:41 second way we should start with an
0:59:42 evolution we're looking for the Third
0:59:43 Way
0:59:44 and they explicitly mention the home
0:59:46 page they say we're we're not involved
0:59:49 in this religion discussion blah blah
0:59:50 blah blah why did they feel the need to
0:59:52 say any of that because they feel
0:59:54 intimidated by the propaganda of the
0:59:56 darwinian uh new atheists movement
1:00:00 so you'll find on that website people
1:00:02 like Eugene Koon
1:00:03 Dr Eugene who explicitly says
1:00:06 he says things in his peer-reviewed
1:00:08 paper
1:00:09 which are clearly against their own
1:00:10 evolution
1:00:12 people uh
1:00:16 who now propose new series as support
1:00:19 will tell you
1:00:21 which are not in line with darwinian
1:00:23 Evolution for example evolution by
1:00:26 genetic engineering
1:00:27 natural engineering or a neolimarcan
1:00:30 Evolution all these kinds of things yeah
1:00:33 which are not they did not uh agree with
1:00:37 Darwin Evolution these guys are all
1:00:38 putting their stuff on there it doesn't
1:00:40 have as much publicity nevertheless
1:00:41 these are the top guys in their industry
1:00:44 they're in the hundreds putting things
1:00:47 which they disturb the theory of
1:00:49 evolution they're putting cast as
1:00:51 Persian on this so-called
1:00:54 uh iron-clad Theory which is meant to be
1:00:57 according to Richard Dawkins as as good
1:00:59 epistemically as the uh heliocentric
1:01:01 model
1:01:04 so these guys are all casting aspersion
1:01:06 on the matter
1:01:07 and so the point is why is why am I
1:01:10 saying this I'm saying this because I'm
1:01:11 I am claiming
1:01:13 that new atheism itself has produced an
1:01:15 environment where you can't even
1:01:16 challenge science which is meant to be
1:01:18 the the Cornerstone of scientific
1:01:19 discovery is meant to be challenged
1:01:20 falsification you come with different
1:01:22 information you can't even do that
1:01:24 without being accused labeled in the
1:01:26 academy humiliated dejected take it to
1:01:29 court wherever it is because your
1:01:31 so-called denying a fact
1:01:37 yeah you should read a book very
1:01:39 interesting the guy's an atheist
1:01:42 and he's I remember him saying this and
1:01:44 I was on videos of his he says I find it
1:01:46 incredulous that you can have okay in a
1:01:49 theory of evolution you have like Wales
1:01:52 and cow like creatures are in the same
1:01:54 bracket of the same family
1:01:57 and he goes I find it incredulous
1:01:59 that something like a whale can become
1:02:01 something like a cow how many
1:02:03 Transformations must take place it's
1:02:04 saying it's how many Transformations the
1:02:08 respiratory system has to change this
1:02:10 has to change that has to change oh I'm
1:02:12 not even saying Islam goes against any
1:02:13 of that because there's nothing in the
1:02:15 Quran that says the will doesn't change
1:02:16 into account for them I'm just saying
1:02:18 this is what balinski is saying belinski
1:02:21 was an atheist is written against
1:02:22 Dawkins and so on he he finds it hard to
1:02:25 believe that something like a whale can
1:02:27 become something like a cow
1:02:29 because it does take a jump of Faith or
1:02:31 leap of faith or whatever it is leap of
1:02:33 faith you can't hear something like a
1:02:35 thing a big whale coming into a cup
1:02:38 he says no he says I find out to believe
1:02:41 I'm on that bombshell
1:02:43 we will conclude I hope um just
1:02:46 summarize we've spoken today about the
1:02:48 category mistake fallacy that some of
1:02:50 these new ACS broke to the table
1:02:53 when they
1:02:55 when they conflict between teleology
1:02:57 teleology or purpose or why something is
1:03:00 a certain way or metaphysics and the
1:03:03 physical world we then spoke about at
1:03:05 length
1:03:06 the reasons why the West has taken over
1:03:08 the Muslim World in terms of science
1:03:10 when the Muslim world was doing well
1:03:12 whether or not it's fair to say that the
1:03:14 Muslim World took everything from the
1:03:15 Greeks independent knowledge production
1:03:17 in the Muslim world and then we spoke
1:03:19 about the decline and we spoke about
1:03:21 some new atheist narratives all of which
1:03:24 now we're fully armed with and hopefully
1:03:27 that does what we need it to do which is
1:03:30 educate all of us