Modern Trends: Orientalism & Perceptions of Islam | Mohammed Hijab (2022-12-08) ​

0:00:00 oh
0:00:05 foreign
0:00:07 welcome to another session where we're
0:00:09 going to be talking about perceptions of
0:00:11 Islam and Muslims throughout the world
0:00:14 now this is extremely important because
0:00:16 obviously a big part of the media
0:00:18 discourse in particular is this is is
0:00:21 the fact that someone will come and say
0:00:22 Islam is and then fill in the blanks or
0:00:25 Muslims are and then fill in the blanks
0:00:26 now a lot of what we have to do as let's
0:00:30 say dawa carriers or whatever is then
0:00:32 combat these misconceptions and or
0:00:35 misnomers
0:00:37 uh but before we before we can do that
0:00:39 we need to kind of have Frameworks in
0:00:41 place and we need to be aware of both
0:00:43 the literature and the data that
0:00:46 surrounds Islam and Muslims the most
0:00:48 Cutting Edge data are the most uh
0:00:50 up-to-date data relating to Islam and
0:00:54 Muslims and in this session that's what
0:00:55 we're going to be doing basically and
0:00:56 we're going to equip everyone here with
0:00:58 both the Frameworks which are very
0:01:01 useful to us in our responses and also
0:01:04 the data which is also useful to us when
0:01:06 we're speaking to people and I'll be
0:01:08 honest in this kind of session
0:01:11 a lot of my own public you know
0:01:13 discussions with people especially when
0:01:15 they speak about Muslims because that's
0:01:17 what
0:01:18 that's what many people in the world are
0:01:20 interested in most people in for example
0:01:22 Western culture are not necessarily
0:01:24 interested in religion to follow but
0:01:26 interested in the people that follow it
0:01:28 because people have a sociological
0:01:30 interest and so when they say Muslims
0:01:32 believe in this or Muslims do that and
0:01:34 Muslims whatever
0:01:35 they're interested in this and a lot of
0:01:37 what they say will be inaccurate how do
0:01:40 you combat that without yourself
0:01:42 generalizing in a certain way speaking
0:01:44 without data we're going to be talking
0:01:46 about it but before I start with that I
0:01:48 think it's important
0:01:50 to mention a few Frameworks which the
0:01:53 Western Academy has recognized and I
0:01:55 think everyone needs to know these
0:01:57 things
0:01:57 one of them is what is referred to as
0:01:59 the post-colonial
0:02:01 um now it's a school of thought a
0:02:03 postcolonial school of thought
0:02:05 who knows anything about the
0:02:06 post-colonial school of thought what is
0:02:08 the postcolonial school of thought who
0:02:11 are some of the main protagonists
0:02:13 of the school who are some of the main
0:02:15 uh what are some of the main books on
0:02:18 this
0:02:23 okay so this is why it's so important
0:02:24 because you know this is very important
0:02:27 I'm sure when I when I say you'll you'll
0:02:30 recollect
0:02:31 but probably one of the main
0:02:33 protagonists is Edward site
0:02:37 and he wrote a book called orientalism
0:02:41 and orientalism was in this book
0:02:44 orientalism Edward said
0:02:46 he used two or three different
0:02:48 Frameworks
0:02:50 he used what is called gramsian
0:02:52 framework
0:02:54 a gram she was a Marxist thinker
0:02:58 and he also used the post-modernist
0:03:00 framework
0:03:01 and to use a kind of discourse analysis
0:03:03 and he I I would argue these are
0:03:07 incoherent like because postcode post
0:03:10 modernism
0:03:12 and grampian
0:03:13 Frameworks are not in not entirely in
0:03:16 unison with one another
0:03:18 I'm not sure if you noticed but when we
0:03:20 were talking to um Jordan Peterson
0:03:21 tangent right he he says this all the
0:03:25 time he says postcolonial marxists I'm
0:03:27 not sure if you've noticed this
0:03:29 and I asked him who do you mean by them
0:03:31 and then he mentioned zerida do you
0:03:34 remember that back and forth that I had
0:03:35 with him I said who who do you intend
0:03:37 with the post-colonial
0:03:40 sorry the post
0:03:42 uh modernist Marxist and he said
0:03:44 Jacquees derida yeah
0:03:46 and I said I don't agree with that and
0:03:47 then I said to her he said I said it's a
0:03:49 worthless battle I don't want to get
0:03:50 into it but just to let you know since
0:03:53 we're talking about it now
0:03:54 post-modernism
0:03:56 is post-modernism if you remember
0:03:59 attempts to deconstruct metanarratives
0:04:03 so anything which is a meta narrative it
0:04:05 tries to deconstruct it
0:04:08 um including Marxism so in other words
0:04:10 Marxism is not it's not
0:04:14 um commensurate
0:04:15 with post-modernism
0:04:18 now Edward sides however Edward said he
0:04:22 says he in the beginning of his book
0:04:23 orientalism he said I'm going to use two
0:04:25 or three Frameworks he said I'm going to
0:04:27 use the postmodernist framework I'm
0:04:28 going to use the gramshin framework and
0:04:30 I'm going to use
0:04:32 um
0:04:33 of discourse analysis
0:04:37 an argument that can be made and I'll be
0:04:39 honest I think in the first Masters I've
0:04:40 done I made this argument to good effect
0:04:42 and my professor said this is fair
0:04:45 enough argument is that these two
0:04:46 Frameworks don't actually make sense
0:04:48 together
0:04:49 going back to Jordan Peterson's
0:04:51 imaginary Phantom
0:04:53 uh post-modernist Marxist that he talks
0:04:55 about there is no postmodernist Marxist
0:04:57 they don't exist this this segment of
0:04:59 individuals fake person
0:05:02 that he's created and now so who who are
0:05:04 these people Jack who's there he's not
0:05:06 that if you ask Jack who is derida or
0:05:08 Michael Foucault are you a Marxist they
0:05:10 will say we're not marxists we believe
0:05:12 in this instead
0:05:14 anyway point is
0:05:17 Edward side
0:05:20 um he he writes really well
0:05:23 like if you if you really want to have
0:05:28 um
0:05:29 a good experience with the English
0:05:31 language
0:05:32 in an argumentative structure Edward
0:05:34 Seitz books is one of the top top 50
0:05:37 books you can read in English language I
0:05:38 think
0:05:39 especially orientalism he's written many
0:05:42 other books we've got them here in fact
0:05:43 covering Islam it's in this shelves with
0:05:46 you if anyone wants them these books he
0:05:47 he writes well but not as good as
0:05:49 orientalism orientalism he does his
0:05:51 discourse analysis and what he does is
0:05:52 this basically his main argument
0:05:54 is that the way
0:05:56 and he gives the example of the National
0:05:58 Geographic I'm not sure if you come
0:06:00 across this magazine the National
0:06:01 Geographic is a magazine where she talk
0:06:04 about like animals and this and that
0:06:07 he he says that the way in which the
0:06:09 West is now looking at the East
0:06:13 is that they are and he uses this phrase
0:06:15 they are used as or they are looked at
0:06:18 as subjects of inquiry
0:06:21 like zoo-like creatures
0:06:23 and by the way I'm subscribed to um the
0:06:26 National Geographic
0:06:28 and it is like that it's quite
0:06:30 ridiculous if on Instagram I see
0:06:32 sometimes like the stuff that comes up
0:06:33 you see on the one hand like a parrot
0:06:36 and the bear and a monkey and another
0:06:38 man a black man Sonny so it's in your
0:06:40 mind what you're doing just you're
0:06:41 creating associative links like this is
0:06:45 we're going to analyze the black man
0:06:47 just like we're going to analyze the
0:06:49 power and the dog and whatever it may be
0:06:51 what you won't find in National
0:06:53 Geographic is a white person standing
0:06:54 with a suit
0:06:55 do you see what I'm saying
0:06:58 do you get the point here
0:07:04 yeah and like he's like you know like in
0:07:06 a museum just looking at different
0:07:07 humans you just find like someone in the
0:07:09 hijab next to like run the model
0:07:12 so yeah exactly so what that already
0:07:14 does and this is extremely powerful it's
0:07:17 not there's no argument being made here
0:07:19 and as I say it's we have to
0:07:22 we have to now move past arguments
0:07:27 there's a there's a deeper psychological
0:07:29 manipulation Happening Here
0:07:32 its Association
0:07:35 so we start off by showing you
0:07:37 the monkey
0:07:40 they will show you the power and then we
0:07:43 show you
0:07:45 the black man you know in Kenya with his
0:07:48 fluffy thing and colors on his face or
0:07:50 whatever he's doing so what the man is
0:07:52 doing here is there's a link there's a
0:07:54 black man there and there's a parrot
0:07:55 here they're all animals basically
0:07:58 and then like you said the next thing is
0:08:00 a hijabi woman
0:08:03 and the next thing is a woman in Iran
0:08:05 maybe it's you know
0:08:07 but you won't find a woman white woman
0:08:09 walking to the you know the building
0:08:14 to go to work
0:08:16 in fact
0:08:17 it would just be unusual to find
0:08:20 anything like that because it's seen as
0:08:22 the hustle and we're the father put it
0:08:23 that way they are seen as the normative
0:08:25 and we are seen as the exception
0:08:29 do you see what's happening so
0:08:30 orientalism is
0:08:31 it's called authorization dehumanization
0:08:34 these words are very important
0:08:36 they are authorizing they are alienating
0:08:40 the rest of the world it's eurocentrism
0:08:44 so the center of the world
0:08:46 is Europe
0:08:47 and everything else is periphery it's
0:08:50 hashia it's you know on the side
0:08:56 so this is
0:08:58 how he argues and what he does is he
0:09:00 brings all these examples like from the
0:09:01 National Geographic from this novel from
0:09:03 this place uh 1001 Nights and how about
0:09:08 1001 Nights
0:09:09 has been trans has when it was
0:09:12 translated into English
0:09:14 there was something called orphan tale
0:09:16 and how they Tran they translated it in
0:09:18 an orientalizing way to make Aladdin or
0:09:21 whoever the protagonist may be to make
0:09:23 him seem unusual
0:09:27 it's always it's this is called Western
0:09:29 gays this is the Western gaze it's
0:09:31 always like the West is looking at this
0:09:34 is you know the rest in a certain way
0:09:37 so it's not I mean
0:09:40 it's not as simple as
0:09:42 disorientalizing discourse it's not as
0:09:45 simple as someone coming and saying
0:09:48 yeah the West is best in fact there's a
0:09:50 book called us well one of the one of
0:09:52 these ex-muslims
0:09:53 West is best forgot I had the bottom
0:09:55 shelf because we put these kinds of
0:09:56 lower level books on the little box
0:09:59 we should put it in the toilet maybe but
0:10:01 that's something else
0:10:03 um he wrote I mean that that is I mean
0:10:06 westerners
0:10:07 even in British culture that's not seen
0:10:09 as normal say England is best
0:10:11 it starts to come in creep in to
0:10:13 conservative politics this is the best
0:10:15 country in the world Boris has started
0:10:17 it and now Liz trust and they start
0:10:19 using this language
0:10:21 but it's not really it's not really
0:10:23 about British culture to be honest with
0:10:24 you
0:10:25 it might be part of American culture
0:10:27 definitely but saying that what's this
0:10:29 best and we're the better than this and
0:10:30 we're better than these guys even having
0:10:31 a flag here it's like you know people
0:10:34 think you're a nationalist or something
0:10:35 right but I'm saying saying that the
0:10:37 West is best in this direct way is is a
0:10:40 is a lazy man's method to manipulation
0:10:44 they're better at manipulating than that
0:10:46 and this is the idea so Edward side's
0:10:50 book
0:10:51 the the main thrust of the argument is
0:10:53 that the subject of inquiry are these
0:10:56 other people or the the East and the
0:10:59 West is is the uh
0:11:02 is everything is set to that obviously
0:11:05 before we had France Fanon
0:11:07 who wrote The Wretched of the Earth
0:11:10 uh and this is another important uh you
0:11:14 know person who went to Algeria and he
0:11:18 spoke about it and he saw French
0:11:19 colonialism there he famously said that
0:11:22 what is this a woman within a club he
0:11:24 said what is this uh garment that
0:11:26 frustrates the colonizer you know
0:11:29 frustrates the colonizer there's things
0:11:31 that frustrate the colonizer
0:11:33 and so orientalism has there's only a
0:11:36 few big names
0:11:38 but it's now become a discipline so like
0:11:40 if you go and do a sociology degree if
0:11:42 you do a Philosophy degree if you do
0:11:44 even a politics degree you will have to
0:11:46 cover this
0:11:48 if you do almost any degree you'll cover
0:11:50 orientalism you'll cover his book you'll
0:11:51 you'll be required to read at least
0:11:53 parts of it
0:11:54 why because it has shaped the discourse
0:11:57 now who who was he responding to who's
0:11:59 responding to a person called
0:12:01 Bernard Lewis
0:12:04 now Bernard Lewis was another historian
0:12:06 who talked about the decline of the
0:12:08 Muslim world and why you know all these
0:12:10 kinds of things he spoke in a much more
0:12:12 conventional way
0:12:13 and he was attacking him throughout the
0:12:15 book saying like this is a very binary
0:12:17 way of looking at things and there was a
0:12:19 good refutation here
0:12:23 and there's another book which I think
0:12:24 is behind one of you guys it's called Uh
0:12:26 Samuel Huntington's book on The Clash of
0:12:28 civilization so this is more Bernard
0:12:30 Lewis esque
0:12:31 uh so these are the kinds of so you need
0:12:34 to be aware of postcolonial theories
0:12:36 because they can be quite useful and a
0:12:39 lot of them are true like if you think
0:12:40 about them
0:12:41 especially considering that the
0:12:43 assumption is liberalism
0:12:44 that the liberal ethic is about Freedom
0:12:47 it's about expression and these kind of
0:12:48 things
0:12:50 and there is not true truth with a
0:12:52 capital T in that sense but there's
0:12:54 everyone's expression of it and these
0:12:56 kinds of ideas
0:12:58 this shows you how actually there's a
0:13:00 deeper manipulation going on so it's a
0:13:03 very it's imperative for anybody in the
0:13:05 in in the tower to actually be aware of
0:13:07 this and uh Mahmoud is a contemporary
0:13:10 writer
0:13:11 she writes the following and I found
0:13:12 this quite interesting because I found
0:13:14 this
0:13:16 in one of her books now she's more like
0:13:19 left-wing liberal individual probably
0:13:21 postcolonial Theory like
0:13:24 but this is what she says I found it
0:13:26 very interesting in it and she refers to
0:13:28 actually
0:13:30 she's refuting here which is very
0:13:32 interesting she's refuting a Muslim
0:13:34 liberal Muslim and we'll cover who are
0:13:36 the liberal Muslims
0:13:38 actually let me just tell you now just
0:13:40 so you can have a background liberal
0:13:41 Muslims in the academy in the in the
0:13:43 academy are people like fossil Rahman
0:13:48 uh he's probably the biggest one and the
0:13:50 most prolific one is like Pakistani
0:13:53 individual who wrote many books or major
0:13:55 scenes in the Quran
0:13:57 uh his PhD was actually only been seen
0:13:59 now actually avisana he's one he's he's
0:14:01 a bona fide scholar now even even seen
0:14:04 in every Center
0:14:05 uh and he's written books about like
0:14:08 Sharia and stuff like that and basically
0:14:10 he's not as flagrant about it
0:14:13 but he's not as flagrant about it
0:14:15 however he's basically trying to
0:14:18 encourage a kind of lip liberalism
0:14:21 inside of Islam like some some of the
0:14:24 practices he mentions in one of his
0:14:25 books polygamy for example and now
0:14:27 everyone's going to hate him we should
0:14:29 now and not perform this practice you
0:14:31 know we should we should this was this
0:14:33 practice was back then and you know this
0:14:35 yeah and the reason he gives is Liberal
0:14:38 Liberal reasoning the situation has
0:14:41 changed and this kind of thing before
0:14:43 him obviously you have Muhammad Abdullah
0:14:44 in Egypt you know
0:14:48 and it was said that he was they were
0:14:51 the first salaries I don't know if you
0:14:52 know about this situation
0:14:55 but they were the first selfies in a way
0:14:57 which is liberal way
0:14:58 because they said we have to break free
0:15:00 from the tradition
0:15:02 and we have to go back to the salaf
0:15:04 but the way they're doing it their
0:15:06 motivations for doing it were completely
0:15:08 different to say someone like albani who
0:15:09 came after
0:15:10 and he had he took the same idea but he
0:15:13 implemented it in a different way and
0:15:14 this is what made Albany great by the
0:15:16 way
0:15:17 it's not just as Hadith prowess the
0:15:20 reason why we're speaking about
0:15:21 today is because
0:15:24 he was able to mobilize an ideology like
0:15:29 it was a figure that was an idea
0:15:31 it was and that's what people of
0:15:33 influence do so he took this idea he
0:15:35 recycled it in his own way of going back
0:15:38 to the salaf but it was now I'm not
0:15:39 going back to the seller for the
0:15:41 purposes of fitting in with the liberal
0:15:43 although the colonial order but now it
0:15:44 is actually to find out what the prophet
0:15:46 did to do to go back to to to do away
0:15:49 with the methods to just go back to the
0:15:51 pure texts and so on
0:15:53 but why they did it was because they
0:15:56 wanted to
0:15:57 they wanted to create some kind of
0:15:58 lenience for themselves in a colonial
0:16:01 environment
0:16:02 because they didn't want to rebel they
0:16:04 don't want to fight like that they
0:16:06 thought we have to be clever about this
0:16:07 we have to and this was in Egypt
0:16:10 and so he had this physical or something
0:16:14 like that his magazine that you'll see a
0:16:16 lot of his ideas coming out in that
0:16:18 magazine so you can see that there's a
0:16:20 thread of a liberal Islam sign with
0:16:24 these individuals there like
0:16:26 and then from
0:16:29 and then the new age ones which most
0:16:31 people declare to be disbelievers
0:16:34 because they just gone too far people
0:16:36 like anami I'm not sure if you've heard
0:16:38 of this person and Nami the question is
0:16:40 he a liberal Muslim or not
0:16:43 and it's it's interesting because when I
0:16:45 was in the in universities and stuff is
0:16:48 disowned by both
0:16:53 like because
0:16:57 liberal Muslims consider him to be too
0:16:59 traditional for them and traditional
0:17:00 Muslims consider him to be too liberal
0:17:02 for them they're right like the Sadies
0:17:09 somewhere in the middle
0:17:11 but the point is that Tarak Ramadan is
0:17:13 uh without a yeah
0:17:15 the jury's out is he a liberal or not a
0:17:18 liberal uh we don't know any
0:17:21 but he's definitely if he is with if he
0:17:23 is a liberal then he's one of the best
0:17:24 liberals from our perspective and if he
0:17:27 is a tradition he's one of the worst
0:17:29 ones
0:17:31 so put it that way at it
0:17:34 um
0:17:36 I guess that's probably what itself you
0:17:38 say about about me something if he's a
0:17:40 celebrity
0:17:42 but everyone's got their Spectrum right
0:17:44 so you know it is what it is
0:17:47 um so
0:17:49 this is you had this and then obviously
0:17:51 Amino dude the feminist Muslim who
0:17:55 has been declared to be a disbeliever
0:17:57 because what she said was you know uh
0:18:00 you know today
0:18:03 that may not protect the maintainers
0:18:06 and then uh well Tribune
0:18:09 she said no I had a conscientious Gap I
0:18:11 don't agree with this
0:18:13 so people they rejected her as a Muslim
0:18:16 anyway the point is this is the kind of
0:18:18 the background of liberal thinkers now
0:18:21 you've got another guy who she's talking
0:18:23 about now and that's why I'm bringing
0:18:25 this to the table called uh
0:18:28 yeah he's seen as a contemporary guy but
0:18:32 he's a he writes a lot and he's he's
0:18:34 well known Academy I don't know if he's
0:18:36 a Mark teslie or what he is but he's
0:18:39 taking a liberal position where he's
0:18:40 saying look Islam and human rights are
0:18:42 compatible this kind of a liberalism and
0:18:44 Islam are compatible if not we'll make
0:18:46 it he's not saying this but Yani in a
0:18:49 sense we can create the flexibility we
0:18:52 should create the flexibility morality
0:18:54 is a certain way uh morality it can be
0:18:56 understood that side of religion I
0:18:58 remember reading his stuff in it so I
0:19:00 don't even think she's a Muslim I don't
0:19:02 know if she's Muslim or not but she's a
0:19:04 liberal in her own right she's
0:19:05 responding to him
0:19:07 so this is the background yeah so this
0:19:09 is what she says and I the reason why I
0:19:10 bring into the table so I think it's
0:19:11 very interesting yeah
0:19:16 is an erudite attempt to explore those
0:19:18 principles and values with this with
0:19:19 Islamic political and legal Traditions
0:19:21 that could be made compatible with ideas
0:19:24 of liberal democracy
0:19:26 joins a growing number of Scholars who
0:19:29 have been writing on this theme in the
0:19:31 last three decades some of these writers
0:19:33 are in the Muslim world and others in
0:19:35 the Europe Europe and the United States
0:19:37 these things these thinkers represent a
0:19:40 wise spectrum of physical perspectives
0:19:43 some of the reformers Trends within the
0:19:45 islamist movement for example
0:19:47 in Egypt the Tunisian scholar Rasheed
0:19:51 who lives in Exxon France
0:19:54 and others as far as a more
0:19:56 straightforward secular liberal line
0:19:59 yeah
0:20:00 The increased attention that the Western
0:20:03 media have recently given these
0:20:05 Explorations an indication of the hope
0:20:07 that liberal Islam has been invested
0:20:10 with following the events of September
0:20:12 11 a potential resources for
0:20:14 quote-unquote saving Islam from its more
0:20:16 militant and fundamentalist interpreters
0:20:18 so she's saying that these individuals
0:20:21 are given a voice because it's a
0:20:24 strategy from the West to try and create
0:20:26 you know a liberalizing atmosphere
0:20:28 she continues because I like what she
0:20:31 says next it's really powerful
0:20:40 she says uh
0:20:42 how do I get the whole thing yeah good
0:20:45 curiously in this exploration by Muslim
0:20:48 Scholars Islam Bears the burden of
0:20:50 proving its compatibility with liberal
0:20:52 ideals this is I want you to think about
0:20:55 this uh
0:20:56 wording very carefully because it's very
0:20:58 powerful yeah
0:21:00 let's take it step by step she says
0:21:02 curiously in these Explorations by
0:21:04 Muslim Scholars Islam Bears the burden
0:21:08 of proving its compatibility with
0:21:10 liberal ideals Islam Bears the burden
0:21:14 the onus is on Islam and Muslims to
0:21:17 change it's not on who
0:21:19 liberalism or liberals of the white man
0:21:21 we go back to what
0:21:23 we welcome back to orientalism now she's
0:21:25 taking this this can you see what's
0:21:26 going on here going back to National
0:21:28 Geographic
0:21:30 going back to the black man
0:21:32 being compared with the bear in The
0:21:34 National Geographic or the parrot or
0:21:37 something like that I'm putting these
0:21:38 pictures associated with each other
0:21:39 that's what
0:21:41 is going on here
0:21:43 so the black man has to wear the suit
0:21:46 it's not the white man that has to wear
0:21:47 the traditional Nigerian costume
0:21:51 we we oh we bear the responsibility for
0:21:54 copying the white man we have to be like
0:21:56 him
0:21:57 we have to follow his language we have
0:21:59 to speak like him we have to act like
0:22:01 him
0:22:02 you see Islam is the one who Bears the
0:22:05 responsibility now what she says next is
0:22:07 very powerful I like it yeah
0:22:09 considering she's
0:22:11 her positioning is interesting she goes
0:22:13 this line of this line of question is
0:22:16 almost never reversed
0:22:19 imagine I just want you to think for a
0:22:20 second yeah imagine if I have a
0:22:22 conversation
0:22:23 with
0:22:25 somebody like an intellectual and I say
0:22:29 to him why is it that your country does
0:22:32 not have tawheed
0:22:34 why is it that your Constitution does
0:22:36 not have monotheism
0:22:38 now it's almost comical because it's
0:22:40 like why should it we don't believe in
0:22:42 that we believe in the secular values we
0:22:44 believe in this is our history
0:22:46 if you don't like it you can leave it's
0:22:47 really as simple as that they have no
0:22:49 quality of saying any of this is it's
0:22:51 almost laughable saying imagine this
0:22:54 I'll go further imagine if I speak to a
0:22:55 woman in the street we do that yeah
0:22:57 we'll go on the street woman go to
0:22:59 Piccadilly go to Leicester Square
0:23:01 and I say to a woman why is it that you
0:23:05 do not wear the full face covering and
0:23:07 that you read what you're wearing right
0:23:09 now
0:23:10 she turns around and says what do you
0:23:11 mean there's I've never thought about
0:23:13 that I've never thought about doing
0:23:15 anything I'm not Muslim I'm not there's
0:23:17 some of that
0:23:20 so it's this is what she means by the
0:23:23 line of questioning is never reversed
0:23:26 and if it is reversed it's actually
0:23:28 laughable
0:23:30 that's how bad is but if someone comes
0:23:32 to a Muslim woman ask her why is it that
0:23:35 you have to wear this
0:23:37 it's not a laughable proposition
0:23:39 I remember in University it was like we
0:23:41 had a hijabi girl and the professor
0:23:44 middle class English man he asked her
0:23:46 directly why is he have to wear this
0:23:49 he informed everyone he said this
0:23:51 and the class wasn't objecting it's not
0:23:53 it was like yeah let's speak about it
0:23:55 it's worth discussion
0:23:57 but so this like when the line of
0:24:00 questioning is somehow reversed it's
0:24:01 comical it's laughable
0:24:04 but it's always that we have to we we
0:24:07 have the responsibility of proving
0:24:09 ourselves justifying ourselves
0:24:11 exonerating ourselves explaining
0:24:13 ourselves
0:24:15 to the white man
0:24:20 now we can't you might say well the way
0:24:23 to defeat this is to go completely
0:24:25 Unapologetic we can come to Solutions
0:24:27 but if you do it will it will it will
0:24:30 look wrong aesthetically I I promise you
0:24:32 why'd you take this and why'd you do
0:24:34 that why did you listen to music why it
0:24:36 won't work
0:24:37 so there is a middle ground of how to
0:24:39 deal with it
0:24:41 we'll come to that in a second
0:24:44 but she's saying the line of inquiry is
0:24:46 never reversed yeah
0:24:49 we do not ask for example would it would
0:24:52 it mean what would it mean to take the
0:24:54 resources of the Islamic tradition and
0:24:56 question many of the liberal political
0:24:58 categories and principles for the
0:25:00 contradictions and problems they embody
0:25:02 or how would one think these problems by
0:25:04 bringing the resources of Islamic
0:25:06 political history to Bear upon them for
0:25:08 instance many of their aforementioned
0:25:10 authors of authors including
0:25:14 urged that liberal conceptions of
0:25:16 individual autonomy human rights and
0:25:18 individual Freedom be incorporated into
0:25:20 Islam thus I will father in his essay
0:25:23 argues that the quranic celebration and
0:25:25 sanctification of human diversity should
0:25:28 be made the ground for incorporating
0:25:29 what appears to be the liberal
0:25:31 conception of Tolerance an ethic that
0:25:33 respects dissent and honors the right to
0:25:35 adhere to different religious or
0:25:37 non-religious convictions it is striking
0:25:40 that the normative claims of liberal
0:25:41 conceptions such as
0:25:43 tolerance are taken at face value and no
0:25:46 attention is paid to the contradiction
0:25:47 struggles and problems that these ideals
0:25:50 actually embody
0:25:52 as Scholars of liberalism have shown
0:25:55 yeah
0:25:56 the history the historical trajectory of
0:25:58 a concept like tolerance encompasses
0:26:00 violent struggles that dispossesses
0:26:02 people dispossessed people have had to
0:26:05 wage to be considered legitimate members
0:26:07 of liberal societies not to mention the
0:26:09 ongoing battles about what it means to
0:26:12 tolerate someone or something who does
0:26:14 the tolerating and who is is the
0:26:17 tolerated under what circumstances and
0:26:19 to what end this is kind of similar to
0:26:20 the conversation we're having with
0:26:21 Andrew Tate funny enough
0:26:24 talking about tolerance
0:26:25 they always put this word of Tolerance
0:26:27 there but who is the tolerated one who's
0:26:29 the tolerating one and what is tolerance
0:26:31 and why why are the limits of Tolerance
0:26:33 and who's setting those limits
0:26:35 you see
0:26:37 the point is
0:26:40 she's making the same point we can't
0:26:43 flip the script
0:26:45 and she made a very good point when she
0:26:47 says look we don't even look at the
0:26:49 veracity the truth of liberalism in
0:26:52 other words we're not and this is where
0:26:53 I like to start
0:26:54 and it seems like a very simple
0:26:56 straightforward question
0:26:58 but before we talk about us being like
0:27:00 you tell us why you're right
0:27:03 like yeah I mean a very simple question
0:27:05 I like to ask is what evidence you have
0:27:07 that liberalism is true
0:27:09 because now we both have to bring
0:27:11 evidence to the table I have to bring
0:27:12 evidence to Islam and you have to bring
0:27:14 evidence for liberalism so we're both
0:27:15 justifying things
0:27:17 I don't like asymmetrical types of
0:27:20 relationship unnecessarily
0:27:23 you shouldn't either especially when it
0:27:25 comes to Islam because
0:27:30 the upper hand is better than the lower
0:27:33 hand
0:27:33 so if you start a conversation and your
0:27:35 hand is already on the bottom
0:27:37 you're you're already on the ropes
0:27:39 especially if we're dealing with these
0:27:41 matters so we have to try and calibrate
0:27:44 and bring about some kind of
0:27:47 equality here we start by saying okay so
0:27:49 do you tell us no problem what do you
0:27:52 believe in you believe in whatever it is
0:27:53 they believe in fill in the blanks
0:27:56 prove what you believe and I'll prove I
0:27:58 believe in and see which proof is better
0:28:00 and this is The Chronic question
0:28:03 bring your proof If You're truthful all
0:28:06 we have to do is go back to what the
0:28:08 Quran is telling us to do
0:28:10 bring your proof basically we start off
0:28:12 with everyone proves provides their
0:28:15 proof for what they're trying to achieve
0:28:17 so that's the first thing
0:28:27 any questions here
0:28:35 and this is one of the biggest problems
0:28:36 of allying with the West oh sorry with
0:28:38 the left the left wing because left-wing
0:28:41 agenda is actually so encroaching is
0:28:44 like
0:28:45 when you Ally with the left on issues to
0:28:48 do with let's say lgbtq homosexuality
0:28:50 transgender is
0:28:52 where there are clearly different
0:28:53 paradigms
0:28:55 you convolute
0:28:57 the moral standard
0:29:00 we don't we no longer know what what
0:29:02 groups believe in
0:29:04 who what do the Muslims believe in what
0:29:06 do you believe in and it becomes a quid
0:29:08 pro quo it becomes I scratch your back
0:29:10 you scratch mine the ultimate truth is a
0:29:12 utility truth how do we save ourselves
0:29:14 from destruction
0:29:16 it's no longer okay you know this is a
0:29:19 principle that we're going for
0:29:21 versus this principle
0:29:23 any questions on these points
0:29:26 okay let's move on to the next slide
0:29:27 because
0:29:28 there's another slide here that I sent
0:29:30 you guys
0:29:33 um
0:29:34 now we went so the first thing we went
0:29:36 through
0:29:40 we we spoke about some things
0:29:45 another thing now so we've gone back to
0:29:47 the answer this question a lot of people
0:29:49 will come and say Muslims believe in
0:29:51 this Muslims believe in that especially
0:29:52 the right wing especially vis-a-vis
0:29:55 Sharia law Muslims believe in
0:29:57 terrorism or whatever it may be a good
0:30:00 way to combat that is actually through
0:30:02 studies and data sets yeah
0:30:04 so for example
0:30:10 in terms of the what the studies
0:30:14 or methodology how do we know what the
0:30:16 question is how do we know what Muslims
0:30:18 think okay so I'm telling you now these
0:30:20 are the ways that so soldiers would come
0:30:21 about to tell you how anyone would think
0:30:23 not just Muslims yeah
0:30:25 number one
0:30:26 voting information in free elections
0:30:28 okay
0:30:30 if you want to know what a country
0:30:31 thinks about or what where it stands
0:30:33 that can be an interesting measure I'm
0:30:35 not saying it's perfect but just take a
0:30:36 look and it has to be a free election it
0:30:38 can't be a rigged one
0:30:40 you know so that's that's one way of
0:30:42 doing it
0:30:43 surveys like that of Pew because puc is
0:30:45 the gold standard of survey information
0:30:47 so if you quote Pew research and it's
0:30:51 not conducted by Muslim people in a
0:30:53 Muslim environment for Muslim purposes
0:30:55 this is one of their gold standard
0:30:58 things
0:31:01 what Muslims watch online which you can
0:31:03 gather this information we talked about
0:31:05 this before through things like Google
0:31:07 trends
0:31:08 if you're going without a google.com
0:31:10 forward slash Trends or whatever or
0:31:12 Google trends.com
0:31:14 and you put down
0:31:17 certain keywords you'll see what people
0:31:19 are watching and another thing is Google
0:31:22 engram
0:31:23 engram Google engram is like you have
0:31:26 these books and you see what keywords
0:31:28 are being used in each book from the
0:31:30 1500s till now they've got a digital
0:31:32 library
0:31:33 so it's a very interesting thing Google
0:31:34 and gram see for example if you write
0:31:36 the word the f word
0:31:39 like you know definitely the effort
0:31:41 you put it in you'll see how it went in
0:31:44 English language people start using this
0:31:46 word like when it became popular word
0:31:48 maybe somewhere in this maybe 50s I
0:31:51 would guess
0:31:52 that's why you have something for
0:31:53 example let me just tell you the
0:31:55 relevance of this you have certain TV
0:31:57 programs that are set in the 20s or the
0:31:59 films that San Antonio's and they're all
0:32:00 using effort and think
0:32:02 but this wasn't a common word in that
0:32:04 time
0:32:05 so I mean it wasn't really a
0:32:06 commonwealth at the time
0:32:08 you can use engram to kind of bolster
0:32:10 your Casey for example
0:32:14 another thing before they used to have
0:32:16 something called alexa.com
0:32:17 now now there are other websites I can
0:32:19 give you the names of them later on for
0:32:21 your own purposes
0:32:22 not Elixir but other websites Elixir
0:32:25 used to tell you the ranking of a
0:32:27 website like for example you can put in
0:32:29 a country of your choice and you put
0:32:31 like what are the top 10 top 20 websites
0:32:34 that are watched in that particular
0:32:35 country
0:32:36 you'll find obviously at the top will be
0:32:38 things like YouTube and Google and all
0:32:40 these things yeah
0:32:41 YouTube is like number one actually
0:32:43 overtakes Google in some countries
0:32:46 so the the ranking is usually Google's
0:32:49 number one
0:32:50 YouTube's number two and maybe Facebook
0:32:52 or something is number three yeah
0:32:54 and then after that you have all these
0:32:56 kinds of websites and you know Amazon is
0:32:58 there probably in the top 10 somewhere
0:33:00 uh sorry to say what pornography
0:33:02 websites are there
0:33:03 I try to do analysis actually
0:33:06 of
0:33:07 it whether or not it's true to say that
0:33:10 Muslim countries they watch more
0:33:11 pornography than other Muslims I I
0:33:13 actually put in
0:33:14 I don't know if it's true you know
0:33:16 because
0:33:17 you know in every almost every country
0:33:19 in the Known World a pornography website
0:33:22 is in the top 50 of websites at least
0:33:24 three or four or five in every single
0:33:26 country in the world it shows you this
0:33:27 is a very powerful industry
0:33:30 you know
0:33:33 there's actually a book that I've uh
0:33:35 maybe I shouldn't maybe I should have
0:33:37 mention this
0:33:38 vowel
0:33:41 uh that today I'm just point this out
0:33:44 uh
0:33:46 which is I'll tell you what it's called
0:33:49 it's called a billion Wicked thoughts
0:33:51 yeah
0:33:53 so by August and garden I thought of
0:33:56 this has been to be a I mean the cover
0:33:59 of the book is halam
0:34:01 but maybe you can get an audio book and
0:34:03 this book is interesting because it
0:34:04 tells you what sexual things people
0:34:07 thinking about what fantasies what they
0:34:09 like throughout the world
0:34:11 because that's very interesting because
0:34:12 we'll see if there's the connections and
0:34:14 Trends and stuff and I've been looking
0:34:16 into this matter as well
0:34:18 well like because it tells a lot about
0:34:21 human like for maybe I'm not gonna go
0:34:23 into this but there are certain
0:34:24 countries where certain taboos sexual
0:34:26 taboos aren't
0:34:28 and then those same taboos that are like
0:34:30 exaggerated
0:34:32 the people watch these things online
0:34:35 and you can see like
0:34:37 even the pornography websites they have
0:34:41 they have data sets
0:34:44 anyway moreover what Muslims watch
0:34:46 online this is very important for
0:34:48 example like
0:34:50 I did my own research on Egypt yeah I
0:34:53 wanted to know
0:34:54 I started putting Google Trends certain
0:34:57 names of Islamic speakers
0:35:01 whatever the big ones
0:35:03 and I also put in the names of the Quran
0:35:10 these ones because these are the main
0:35:12 quranic reciters that all Egyptians
0:35:15 agree on like them men cherry and these
0:35:18 and I try to do a data analysis to see
0:35:21 what's going on
0:35:22 it was amazing because I I'm not saying
0:35:24 correlation causation but I found
0:35:27 I think it was 2008. I I need to look
0:35:29 back at the data but I'm giving you an
0:35:31 example of something I found yeah
0:35:33 there was a time I think it was in 2008.
0:35:36 his numbers was very similar to Tamer
0:35:40 Hosny now temer Hosny is the number one
0:35:43 singer one of the like top singers in
0:35:45 Egypt
0:35:46 like you know I don't know the
0:35:47 equivalent of
0:35:49 Adele here or something top singer yeah
0:35:52 in Egypt so I was I was shocked to find
0:35:55 that he was competing with
0:35:57 like almost the same people were
0:35:58 listening to Islamic content and to
0:36:00 Quran
0:36:02 as much as they were listening to music
0:36:04 which is actually very powerful because
0:36:06 you know in any country that's powerful
0:36:09 after the political things happened
0:36:11 especially when the Brotherhood took
0:36:13 power I started to see a complete lack
0:36:18 I'm not saying but one of the theories
0:36:20 is that when you have Muslims in power
0:36:24 you have less people like them more less
0:36:27 because when anyone is in power they're
0:36:30 disliked when anyone is empowered in
0:36:32 this life
0:36:33 so it was it was interesting but maybe
0:36:36 it was because it was a bit of a sham
0:36:37 organization or because of the failures
0:36:39 regarded to that particular
0:36:42 thing but it was interesting I I was
0:36:45 looking at these things interestingly
0:36:46 and because you want to see what works
0:36:48 and what doesn't work do you see so
0:36:50 Google Trends really works it's a nice
0:36:52 uh thing to use
0:36:54 and you can filter it
0:36:57 what Muslims buy is another thing
0:37:01 for example that's much harder to
0:37:04 to find out about but now with Amazon
0:37:08 I think there are ways you have to pay
0:37:10 some money like you have to pay a lot of
0:37:11 money
0:37:12 to find out not that much but you
0:37:15 there's a way of finding out what
0:37:16 products people buy on Amazon and stuff
0:37:18 like that
0:37:19 they do it for business purposes like
0:37:22 they pay like three grand five grand I
0:37:24 find out but unless someone is doing a
0:37:25 big study it's not worth the
0:37:27 thing
0:37:28 who Muslims fund
0:37:31 you know because and that shows you like
0:37:34 for example if Muslims fund they're not
0:37:36 gonna there's organizations and Muslim
0:37:38 funds so yeah I mean it shows you that
0:37:40 obviously when people put their money
0:37:41 into something
0:37:42 that they believe in it
0:37:45 so these are some of the ways we can
0:37:48 find out obviously there's always going
0:37:49 to be methodological problems at every
0:37:51 single one of those categories every
0:37:53 single one
0:37:55 they are methodological problems but
0:37:58 if you have in your mind okay
0:38:00 I'm going to start doing dawa you have
0:38:02 to start being aware of the data sets
0:38:06 the Pew data sets Okay what are the main
0:38:09 studies that are like done on this area
0:38:12 of sharia on terrorism like for example
0:38:14 John Esposito and uh Dalia mugahed
0:38:20 they wrote a book it's kind of like what
0:38:22 a million Muslims or what a billion
0:38:24 Muslims think and they were going
0:38:26 through some data sets and they were
0:38:28 asking the question how many people
0:38:29 actually sympathize with
0:38:30 with Isis or whoever it may be and I
0:38:33 showed it was a negligible amount and
0:38:35 these are very important things because
0:38:36 they're peer reviewed you know the Pew
0:38:38 research actually asked the same
0:38:39 question about terrorism for example and
0:38:41 you see it's negligible it's so once
0:38:44 again when you're having this discussion
0:38:45 how many people think this and
0:38:47 how many people believe in killing the
0:38:49 infidels and stuff and you bring that to
0:38:51 the table so actually this is a
0:38:52 negligible minority they believe in that
0:38:55 then it strengthens and bolsters our
0:38:57 position
0:38:59 and it's important because a lot of it's
0:39:01 a barrier to entry for many people
0:39:02 coming into Islam this this is what
0:39:05 Muslims think
0:39:08 obviously be careful when your inference
0:39:11 making don't make causation correlation
0:39:13 are not the same thing don't make that
0:39:14 link all the time
0:39:16 I'll give you an example here I'll put
0:39:17 an example of the data
0:39:21 this is peer research data
0:39:23 if views on Strictly following the Quran
0:39:25 for laws after widely different
0:39:27 countries yeah
0:39:28 so
0:39:29 you can see
0:39:34 the half or more this is pure research I
0:39:37 was reading half or more in four of the
0:39:40 10 countries surveyed say that laws in
0:39:43 their country should strictly follow the
0:39:44 teachings of the Quran
0:39:46 this opinion is particularly prevalent
0:39:48 in Pakistan 78 percent
0:39:51 one of only five declared Islamic
0:39:54 republics in the world and the
0:39:56 Palestinian territories
0:39:57 support for strict adherence has grown
0:39:59 in the Palestinian territories in 2011
0:40:02 only 36 Palestinians had their laws
0:40:06 should uh strictly follow the Quran
0:40:09 so basically it shows you for instance
0:40:11 countries which are more likely to
0:40:13 follow the Quran Sharia law and which
0:40:15 which are not so saying Palestinian
0:40:17 territories have increased is there a
0:40:19 link between war and Sharia
0:40:21 because Somalia is another country
0:40:23 Afghanistan is another country which is
0:40:24 very high on these kinds of lists like
0:40:26 most if you ask most somalis in Somalia
0:40:28 should we follow Sharia law they would
0:40:30 say yes
0:40:31 same thing with Afghanistan same thing
0:40:33 with Pakistan
0:40:34 but these are War zones
0:40:36 because you're if you're facing death
0:40:38 every day you're most likely to be
0:40:40 religious maybe maybe that can be an
0:40:42 interest I'm not saying it is if the
0:40:43 Palestinian territory is the same thing
0:40:45 but if you go to some countries where
0:40:46 death is like for instance Bosnia
0:40:50 Bosnia and we'll talk about Albania
0:40:52 before right but Albania is one of the
0:40:54 least Islamic countries in terms of
0:40:57 practice in the world Kosovo the same
0:41:00 thing yeah right next to it it's an
0:41:02 independent country now it was almost
0:41:03 completely westernized
0:41:06 now if you compare Bosnia with Albania
0:41:10 you'll find that the level of religious
0:41:11 in body is much more
0:41:14 why because I mean if you compare Bosnia
0:41:16 with Kosovo there was war in Kosovo but
0:41:20 the major genocides took place in uh
0:41:22 Bosnia there was more genocide and then
0:41:24 Kosovo
0:41:26 so maybe is there a link to be made
0:41:28 there we don't know for a fact
0:41:30 about war the warlink death if there's a
0:41:33 threat of death is it more likely to
0:41:34 increase religiosity or not whatever but
0:41:37 you can make your inferences you can we
0:41:39 can discuss those I'm not saying this is
0:41:41 the case but what I'm saying is that
0:41:42 when you have this data you can start
0:41:45 thinking about what works what doesn't
0:41:47 work what happens and what doesn't
0:41:49 happen
0:41:51 and then you can also face some of these
0:41:52 orientalist critiques
0:41:54 because now if someone says Muslims
0:41:56 believe in this and say well actually
0:41:57 according to this they don't
0:41:59 so now you have backing
0:42:00 with with some level of methodological
0:42:03 bias however having said that you have
0:42:05 to if you want to get to the higher
0:42:06 levels of this thing it's not good
0:42:08 enough just going on pew.com and seeing
0:42:10 what they said
0:42:11 you the high levels of it is going on
0:42:13 their methodology and seeing how they
0:42:15 collected their data
0:42:17 one of the companies I used to work for
0:42:19 I used to work for data I'm not sure if
0:42:20 I ever told you guys this I used to work
0:42:22 for a data collection company
0:42:24 yeah it was just around the corner it's
0:42:27 not around the corners in East London
0:42:28 actually
0:42:28 and what I had to call these guys they
0:42:32 were they were responsible for creating
0:42:35 data set surveys and stuff
0:42:38 I'll be honest and this might sound
0:42:40 ridiculous and I was actually thinking
0:42:41 of making some like documentary about it
0:42:45 we my job when I was younger this was
0:42:48 like I got fired like
0:42:52 I got I can't remember the guy said to
0:42:54 me do you want the good news or the bad
0:42:55 news I said just give me the good news
0:42:59 um he said no I have to give you the bad
0:43:00 news first and I don't think you fired
0:43:02 me I think he he told me something
0:43:03 that's left here and I can't remember
0:43:06 what it was but it was this I wasn't I
0:43:07 was in sales I wasn't like doing a lot
0:43:09 of sales jobs and stuff I was just
0:43:10 bouncing from place to places one of the
0:43:12 places you got commission every time
0:43:14 you get a survey done I'm just giving
0:43:16 you like actually what happens behind
0:43:17 the seats
0:43:19 so we have to call these people these
0:43:20 companies and then they ask them
0:43:21 questions survey server it was like a
0:43:23 black and white screen do you know have
0:43:24 you seen this kind of like black and
0:43:25 white things yeah you know well like the
0:43:29 people next to me used to fake it they
0:43:31 used to call the person and just go
0:43:34 through the thing with their own do you
0:43:36 get it because for us we had to get
0:43:38 commission and
0:43:40 so every server would put would get like
0:43:42 I don't know like 20 pounds or something
0:43:44 that's why I said it's not worth it
0:43:47 and I left
0:43:49 because there's other sales jobs out
0:43:50 there that you know when you're a
0:43:52 Salesman you're a bit like a you know a
0:43:54 freelancer you go anywhere where the
0:43:55 commission is higher
0:43:58 so
0:43:59 this guy is next to me is like yeah yeah
0:44:02 calling them headset whatever and they
0:44:05 just say like pretending to have a
0:44:06 conversation
0:44:07 and they were telling me they were
0:44:08 bragging about it they're pretending to
0:44:10 have a conversation do you know one day
0:44:12 will lie I said to them I had a
0:44:13 conversation I said had you ever do
0:44:15 religious surveys
0:44:16 he said yeah we do I said you do the
0:44:18 same thing he said yes
0:44:19 so in other words you can see the
0:44:21 mythological problems here they're doing
0:44:22 religious surveys calling Muslims what
0:44:24 do you believe about God and they
0:44:25 they're writing it themselves
0:44:27 what do you believe about terrorism
0:44:29 you're doing it yourself so this at the
0:44:32 point of collection of data all the way
0:44:34 to generalizing it this methodological
0:44:36 problems
0:44:38 and so when you reach the high levels of
0:44:40 assessing data sets this is what
0:44:43 sociology is all about this is the first
0:44:44 thing if you do any sociology a level
0:44:47 if you do a sociology degree
0:44:49 this is the first thing they'll teach
0:44:50 you about they call it methods and
0:44:52 approaches or they'll have a module on
0:44:53 that kind of thing methods or something
0:44:55 like that how do you collect data sets
0:44:57 what are the implications what are the
0:44:58 weaknesses are and the thing that comes
0:45:01 up all the time is generalizability I'll
0:45:03 give you one example before I end here
0:45:05 you might have heard of the study of you
0:45:08 know the Muslims in America 24 of them
0:45:10 become more Ted
0:45:13 have you heard of this 23 24 and it's
0:45:16 collected by Pew research
0:45:17 now this is a shocking thing you say 23
0:45:20 of Muslims in America become more Ted
0:45:23 so I went and looked at the methodology
0:45:24 and
0:45:26 because it's when you look at the
0:45:27 article they say we've interviewed the
0:45:29 people and they don't mention who
0:45:31 they've interviewed and how they've
0:45:32 interviewed them
0:45:33 they've interviewed a thousand people
0:45:37 and a big chunk of them are Iranians
0:45:39 Shiite Iranians who didn't know English
0:45:42 language they had to have translators
0:45:44 now we know Shiite Iranians they have
0:45:47 their own political baggage
0:45:49 that especially the ones who have after
0:45:51 1979 the the Islamic revolution
0:45:53 so-called is like Revolution
0:45:56 after that took place
0:45:59 they had a resentment we were just
0:46:01 talking about like when Islamic
0:46:03 authorities becoming power sometimes
0:46:04 representment and bruise and it led to
0:46:06 apostasies it did
0:46:09 so these people they just moved away
0:46:10 from they said why should we worship
0:46:12 well Hussein let's just worship Jesus
0:46:14 instead or whatever they thought in
0:46:17 their minds you know
0:46:18 Annie or they moved away from original
0:46:21 together they became secularists so when
0:46:23 you interview 30 40 of Iranians who
0:46:26 can't even speak English as a first
0:46:27 language and who have a disproportionate
0:46:30 uh disinterest in Islam compared to the
0:46:32 other Middle Eastern countries or
0:46:34 Islamic countries they're clearly going
0:46:36 to have a skewed result and if if that
0:46:37 constitutes 20 or 30 of your thousand
0:46:40 people that you've spoken to and then
0:46:42 you tell me afterwards that 23 of
0:46:43 Muslims in America are becoming
0:46:46 disbelievers I have reason to doubt you
0:46:48 now
0:46:49 because you're is is that
0:46:52 compositionally congruent with the uh
0:46:55 population in America it's not if you
0:46:58 look at a population of like demographic
0:47:00 population of Muslims America most of
0:47:02 them as African-Americans then you find
0:47:04 like Arabs and Asians coming from abroad
0:47:06 and then you find some like white
0:47:08 converts and stuff and yes you'll find
0:47:10 this Iranians and well but Iranian
0:47:12 Muslims make according to demographics
0:47:15 account five six percent
0:47:17 of the maybe less than that of the
0:47:20 Muslim population America but you've
0:47:22 made them overpopulated so that you can
0:47:23 get a skewed result
0:47:24 and you spoke to him on the phone and
0:47:26 how do I know when you were speaking to
0:47:27 him on the phone it wasn't like when I
0:47:29 spoke to them on the phone and my friend
0:47:31 and it was someone else doing it a white
0:47:33 man who has a new Colonial uh
0:47:36 conservative views that just wants to
0:47:38 make everyone seem like his disbeliever
0:47:40 so I don't trust your your stats too
0:47:43 much Johnny
0:47:45 fully especially if you've got a
0:47:46 thousand people
0:47:48 but having said that it's better than
0:47:49 nothing
0:47:50 and especially when they've got more
0:47:52 than that like for example when they go
0:47:54 and the the the billion Muslims I think
0:47:56 they uh they asked 50 000 people so now
0:47:58 you have a a stronger sample group and
0:48:00 the basic rule of thumb we can't go
0:48:02 through this now but is the bigger
0:48:04 sample group the more generalizable it
0:48:05 is
0:48:07 so once you start to
0:48:09 familiarize with yourself with that kind
0:48:11 of thing then you can come back Oriental
0:48:13 discourses
0:48:15 and with that we conclude is