Salvation in Islam & Christianity | A Discussion Between Dr. Osman Latiff & Dr. Michael Nazir-Ali (2022-04-02) #

0:00:06 i'm the auditor of the theological
0:00:08 society here in trinity college uh
0:00:10 theological society of course being our
0:00:13 third oldest society in the university
0:00:16 so it's a pleasure to welcome
0:00:19 and
0:00:20 all of you here as members of the muslim
0:00:22 students association
0:00:25 as we embark on this exciting
0:00:27 collaboration and this discussion on
0:00:29 stereology
0:00:31 we're very much uh
0:00:33 excited
0:00:34 for this uh just what we've built very
0:00:37 much as a discussion to help uh
0:00:40 understand each other
0:00:42 as christians and muslims to understand
0:00:45 where we stand and why we differ
0:00:48 because of course
0:00:49 such relations are very important
0:00:52 so you're very welcome here and a
0:00:55 special welcome to dr latif and
0:01:08 as we come to hear from them so i'm
0:01:10 going
0:01:19 may the peace mercy and blessings of god
0:01:21 be with you
0:01:22 welcome to this iconic event a
0:01:25 much-awaited collaboration the first of
0:01:27 its kind between the college's
0:01:28 theological society and the muslim
0:01:30 students association
0:01:32 as timothy introduced me my name is
0:01:33 fabila and i will be co-chairing this
0:01:35 event along with tim from the
0:01:37 theological society as we take you
0:01:38 through this evening's program with our
0:01:40 esteemed guest speakers
0:01:42 firstly it's important that i set the
0:01:44 scope for this evening
0:01:47 we're talking about god
0:01:49 the creator of the heavens and the earth
0:01:52 humans are roaming this planet for a
0:01:54 limited time with a purpose
0:01:56 put here by him
0:01:58 ultimately we will return to him and
0:02:00 answer for how we used our lives the
0:02:02 right and wrong we did our virtues and
0:02:04 our errors
0:02:05 our hope following judgment is salvation
0:02:09 to be allowed into heaven forgiven for
0:02:11 our sins and to have earned god's
0:02:13 pleasure and eternal bliss
0:02:15 so we ask
0:02:17 who is god
0:02:18 we speak of salvation but what matters
0:02:20 is who is saving us and how are we being
0:02:23 saved
0:02:24 is god merciful
0:02:26 is god vengeful
0:02:28 what are the requisites for being
0:02:29 forgiven
0:02:30 how do we atone for our sins
0:02:32 is salvation achieved through sacrifice
0:02:35 by personal effort or have we already
0:02:37 been granted it by some special grace
0:02:40 all of these questions and more are what
0:02:42 we will be exploring this evening
0:02:44 comparing and contrasting islamic and
0:02:46 christian beliefs of salvation
0:02:48 from the time of adam and eve till 2022
0:02:51 and forevermore this question's
0:02:53 relevance is eternal
0:02:56 so with that said i hope you're all
0:02:57 excited for what's to come now that we
0:02:59 have a sense of the magnitude of
0:03:01 tonight's discussion
0:03:02 with this i now have the honor of
0:03:04 introducing our guest speaker
0:03:05 representing the muslim position
0:03:08 so dr uthman
0:03:10 is an academic researcher and teacher
0:03:12 with sapiens institute
0:03:14 he holds a bachelor's degree with in
0:03:16 history an m.a in crusader studies and
0:03:18 has completed a phd in the place of
0:03:21 allah the merits of jerusalem and
0:03:23 religious poetry in the muslim effort to
0:03:26 recapture jerusalem in the crusades he
0:03:28 has delivered many papers in the uk and
0:03:30 internationally at renowned academic
0:03:32 institutions
0:03:34 books written by him include the cutting
0:03:36 edge of the poet's sword and on being
0:03:38 human how islam addresses othering
0:03:40 dehumanization and empathy
0:03:43 he is also written and continues to
0:03:44 write academic articles and book
0:03:46 chapters in the field of history
0:03:48 further to his phd he conducted
0:03:50 postdoctoral research in politics and
0:03:52 international relations and dr ludleif
0:03:55 is a lecturer and teacher at jamiyah
0:03:56 masjid and islamic center in slough and
0:03:59 is a regular speaker at mosques and
0:04:01 university in the uk and internationally
0:04:04 and most relevant to this discussion of
0:04:06 course he has recently released a course
0:04:08 with sapiens institute titled divine
0:04:11 perfection christianity and islam on sin
0:04:14 and salvation based on his recently
0:04:16 published book of the same title
0:04:19 finally i'd like to hand back over to
0:04:21 tim who will introduce dr nasir ali and
0:04:23 then we will talk about the format of
0:04:25 this event
0:04:28 thank you very much and so doctor nasser
0:04:30 raleigh and i'm sure dr nazarella you'll
0:04:32 correct me if i get any of this wrong uh
0:04:35 because i've left my notes in my bag
0:04:38 um dr nazareli uh is a native of
0:04:41 pakistan
0:04:43 from a christian and muslim family
0:04:46 background
0:04:47 he was ordained to the anglican church
0:04:50 in 1976
0:04:52 and
0:04:53 served as a bishop in the church in
0:04:56 pakistan until 1980 from 1984 until 1986
0:05:02 after which
0:05:03 he came to england on the special
0:05:05 invitation of the then archbishop of
0:05:07 canterbury
0:05:08 from
0:05:09 1994 until 2009 dr nasralli served as
0:05:14 bishop of rochester
0:05:18 and i did a lot of work there
0:05:21 during his time as wish for rochester
0:05:23 in ecumenical relations with the roman
0:05:25 catholic church
0:05:27 and was
0:05:28 heavily involved also in the global and
0:05:30 future conference
0:05:34 dr nazareli is also the president of the
0:05:37 oxtrad
0:05:39 foundation which seeks to train
0:05:42 and equip christians for ministry in
0:05:46 parts of the world where
0:05:48 the church is under pressure
0:05:50 and facing persecution
0:05:52 and since october of 2021
0:05:55 uh dr nasir ali has been serving as a
0:05:58 priest within the roman catholic church
0:06:00 having been ordained to the ordinariate
0:06:03 of our lady of watson
0:06:09 [Music]
0:06:11 so we're very pleased to have
0:06:19 that we've speakers our esteemed
0:06:20 speakers i'd like to take you through
0:06:22 the format of this debate and how it's
0:06:24 going to go
0:06:25 so each speaker will begin with a
0:06:26 presentation for 30 to 40 minutes then
0:06:29 it should be followed by a dialogue
0:06:31 between both speakers for 20 minutes and
0:06:33 finally opening the floor for questions
0:06:34 for the audience from the audience in
0:06:36 the last 30 minutes um so with that i'd
0:06:38 like to hand the floor to dr uthman
0:06:41 all right assalamu alaikum
0:06:43 may the peace of god be on all of you
0:06:46 bismillahim in the name of god almighty
0:06:49 the most merciful the most compassionate
0:06:52 it is a great honor for myself to be in
0:06:54 the company such esteemed people as
0:06:56 yourselves i want to thank all of you
0:06:58 for your attendance today tonight to
0:07:00 this great university i want to thank
0:07:02 the the holy society and tim of course
0:07:04 and thank the msa and of course thank
0:07:07 our esteemed guest dr nasir ali a great
0:07:10 honor for myself to you speaking
0:07:11 alongside all of you and in your
0:07:12 presence
0:07:14 i want to of course begin by saying that
0:07:18 we have to ensure although we're going
0:07:19 to have a lot of discussion
0:07:20 disagreements with one another perhaps
0:07:22 in the course of today
0:07:24 we have to of course uh
0:07:26 really imbue a sense of collective
0:07:29 empathy and a collective sense of mercy
0:07:32 that of course is in line with the
0:07:33 prophetic paradigm when the prophet of
0:07:35 allah said peace be upon him
0:07:39 the most merciful ones
0:07:41 are those the merciful ones are those
0:07:42 who are the most merciful shows mercy
0:07:43 towards
0:07:45 being merciful with those on the earth
0:07:47 and the one in the heavens meaning god
0:07:48 almighty we must fall unto you therefore
0:07:51 having therefore that sense of approach
0:07:53 was one another with humility and mercy
0:07:55 and love is of the great essence
0:07:58 there is of course a lot in our
0:08:00 discussion that we can of course agree
0:08:02 on at the fact that we're all of course
0:08:04 well humans to begin with theists we are
0:08:07 muslims and christians they are of
0:08:10 course parallel sometimes narratives
0:08:12 narratives running through our religious
0:08:14 discourses
0:08:15 personalities personages that are
0:08:17 similar
0:08:18 their narratives in some ways
0:08:20 interconnect intelligence in our
0:08:22 religious texts
0:08:24 names that you're familiar with that
0:08:25 we're familiar with we're going to speak
0:08:26 about jesus and adam and mary and other
0:08:30 names that we're familiar with we hold
0:08:32 all of them with great reverence and
0:08:33 great esteem and great devotion
0:08:36 at the same time however there are of
0:08:37 course noticeable differences and even
0:08:40 though the quran is telling us that we
0:08:41 should of course speak with one another
0:08:44 at some points
0:08:46 in a way that you know brings out these
0:08:48 sense of commonalities between us the
0:08:50 quran still declares about our christian
0:08:52 friends
0:08:56 that they did forget a great portion of
0:08:58 what they were reminded about reminded
0:09:00 of what does that mean so if you think
0:09:03 if we start therefore from the beginning
0:09:04 point i mean the beginning as in the
0:09:06 narrative of human history
0:09:09 uh we of course agree in this sense that
0:09:12 god of course created
0:09:14 adam
0:09:15 creates his wife eve
0:09:18 the first humans in that sense the quran
0:09:21 declares that as does the bible as well
0:09:23 we also both believe that adam and eve
0:09:26 were placed in a garden garden of eden
0:09:28 in the book of genesis and were told to
0:09:32 enjoy the garden with full luxury but
0:09:34 with one instruction not to partake from
0:09:36 a particular tree or a fruit of a tree
0:09:40 and uh we know therefore that in the
0:09:42 book of genesis the serpent comes in the
0:09:44 form of the devil comes form of a
0:09:46 serpent and convinces the woman eve
0:09:49 to eat from that tree and she then does
0:09:52 so and then she convinces her husband
0:09:54 adam to do the same and both therefore
0:09:56 are thereafter condemned in the words of
0:09:58 the logan build in his work on hamad
0:10:00 theology they undergo three types of
0:10:02 damnation a physical damnation spiritual
0:10:04 damnation and an eternal damnation
0:10:08 therefore adam therefore has quite a
0:10:09 limited role and context at least in the
0:10:12 beginning here except he imagined later
0:10:14 on a book of romans with paul as this
0:10:16 kind of uh as a second adam as a second
0:10:20 father as uh jesus in fact sorry a
0:10:22 second father taking the place of adam
0:10:25 uh who failed you know in this context
0:10:27 in the book of genesis by by sinning
0:10:30 against god
0:10:31 now any discussion on salvation of
0:10:33 course so teriology must begin with the
0:10:35 discussion on
0:10:36 hama theology which is a concept of sin
0:10:39 what do we believe christians and
0:10:41 muslims about sin
0:10:43 in the christian paradigm of course sin
0:10:45 is reprehensible
0:10:47 sin creates a chasm a rift
0:10:50 alienation between us and the divine
0:10:54 perfect being god that is
0:10:56 and in christian theology
0:10:59 in soteriology it is jesus christ who
0:11:01 comes and reconciles between us and god
0:11:05 so that we us and sinners specifically
0:11:08 all of us of course are sinners find a
0:11:10 way back to
0:11:12 god find a way back to god through the
0:11:15 blood sacrifice atonement of jesus
0:11:18 christ of course paul in romans figures
0:11:20 jesus as the hellesterion as his blood
0:11:23 the redeemer the atoner with his blood
0:11:25 sacrifice
0:11:27 christian theologians for i mean the
0:11:29 late lehman strauss for example said
0:11:31 that in spite of god being
0:11:33 uh maximally you could say loving and
0:11:36 merciful still the penalty of sin needs
0:11:39 to be paid that's kind of the beginning
0:11:42 point i think of our discussion
0:11:44 i'm going to take you through three core
0:11:47 points in the course of my presentation
0:11:49 in sha allah with you today
0:11:51 i'm going to begin by number one
0:11:53 outlining what is sin and salvation in
0:11:56 the christian paradigm and then point
0:11:58 number two
0:11:59 uh something that i call in my book the
0:12:02 adamic conundrum and i call it conundrum
0:12:05 for a reason that we'll try to learn
0:12:07 about very shortly
0:12:08 and then point number three is to look
0:12:11 at sin and salvation in the islamic
0:12:13 paradigm and how i believe it reflects
0:12:15 the maximal perfect perfection of god
0:12:17 almighty himself
0:12:19 so that being said therefore although
0:12:21 there are things that we would of course
0:12:23 agree on
0:12:24 there are noticeable differences between
0:12:26 us
0:12:27 now in light of the sin elements in
0:12:29 christianity the fact that we're all
0:12:32 sinners
0:12:33 adam sinned we inherit that sin although
0:12:35 of course our jewish friends would
0:12:38 debate about whether there is a concept
0:12:40 of original sin in the old testament
0:12:42 tradition but in any case uh you know
0:12:45 paul figures adam as the and he says of
0:12:48 course i think in romans that because of
0:12:50 the sin of one man all of us were
0:12:52 condemned and because of the sacrificial
0:12:55 death of one man jesus all of us of
0:12:57 course were saved
0:13:00 now christian theologians in the course
0:13:02 of christian history have tried to
0:13:03 understand what does this all mean
0:13:06 in the whole cosmic scheme of things
0:13:08 between god between us as humans and
0:13:12 between jesus christ who emerges later
0:13:14 what is this whole thing what is this
0:13:16 whole paradigm all about who is god in
0:13:18 the face of all of this and who are we
0:13:20 in the face of order who is jesus in the
0:13:22 face of all of this as well
0:13:24 uh and so you know one of the earliest
0:13:26 theories by proposed by origen in the
0:13:29 second century was the theory of the
0:13:31 devil ransom
0:13:32 and the devil ransom theory was this
0:13:34 idea that you know when adam sins
0:13:38 the devil holds humanity captive on
0:13:41 account of that sin
0:13:43 because adam of course has done
0:13:44 something so ungodly he's removed from
0:13:47 that presence of god no longer he can
0:13:49 enjoy that closeness with god and now
0:13:53 the devil holds humanity captive
0:13:56 and so god therefore sends jesus christ
0:13:59 as a ransom to pay off that price to
0:14:03 bring humanity back into the fold with
0:14:05 god almighty himself
0:14:07 and so there are of course other
0:14:09 tangents to do with this but that's the
0:14:11 kind of the framework of this idea of
0:14:13 the devil ransom theory the fact that
0:14:15 god sends jesus as a ransom to pay the
0:14:17 price of for the devil in in some sense
0:14:20 you have others like the fish hook
0:14:22 theory of gregory of nisa very shortly
0:14:25 thereafter which was similar the idea
0:14:27 that you know god sends jesus it's a bit
0:14:29 like the debate uh the devil not knowing
0:14:33 of course that jesus christ is god
0:14:35 incarnate thinking he's a a great holy
0:14:37 person
0:14:38 uh working great miracles
0:14:40 but doesn't know that through his
0:14:43 blood sacrifice
0:14:45 god's anger wrath would be appeased and
0:14:48 therefore the burden of that sin then
0:14:50 therefore would be lifted from all of us
0:14:52 as human beings
0:14:54 uh the fishhook theory you had others of
0:14:56 course before like uh iran is his theory
0:15:00 of recapitulation the idea that you know
0:15:02 where the first man adam sins against
0:15:04 god
0:15:05 jesus christ is like the second adam the
0:15:08 second father adam makes mistakes makes
0:15:11 wrong choices in life jesus christ of
0:15:13 course makes the right choices in life
0:15:16 recapitulation and you had of course
0:15:17 others after that as well you had
0:15:20 in the 11th you had
0:15:22 an anselm of canterbury and his great
0:15:24 theory of the satisfaction theory and of
0:15:27 course he has an interlocutor boso he's
0:15:28 writing his text cordus homo why god
0:15:31 became man connecting therefore
0:15:34 the need for incarnation or niece or
0:15:36 need for incarnation to atonement in
0:15:39 fact even and gregory makes something
0:15:41 similar the need for incarnation in
0:15:43 connection to atonement that god needed
0:15:46 to become
0:15:47 human
0:15:48 incarnated in order to pay the price of
0:15:51 that sin back to himself
0:15:53 now there's an interesting point there
0:15:55 because of course in all of these
0:15:56 theories you have detractors
0:15:59 you have those who didn't quite like
0:16:01 them you are those who argued against
0:16:03 them contemporary to those people and
0:16:05 those who came afterwards as well and
0:16:07 christian theology
0:16:08 uh and then he had of course so and some
0:16:11 serious satisfaction the idea that when
0:16:13 adam sins he besmirches the honor of god
0:16:17 god who is esteemed god who is mighty
0:16:19 god who is holy and sanctified has his
0:16:22 honor besmirched through the sin of adam
0:16:25 then of course our collective sinning
0:16:27 thereafter we all take on that kind of
0:16:29 depraved nature in us
0:16:31 and there are of course different
0:16:33 tangents in terms of original sin how
0:16:35 it's kind of considered augustine's
0:16:37 theory and others thereafter but that's
0:16:39 the basic premise and so
0:16:41 uh anselm writes therefore that it was
0:16:43 necessary for for god to come into the
0:16:46 earth himself and pay the price back
0:16:48 himself right because there is nothing
0:16:51 that you could do or i could do that
0:16:53 could ever have that sin
0:16:55 uh you know lifted so to say or to ever
0:16:57 have god's honor restored back to
0:16:59 himself because god is so holy that
0:17:01 there's nothing that we could do that
0:17:03 could ever match up to god's standards
0:17:06 in that sense you know
0:17:07 and of course you have detractors in
0:17:09 that case as people of course argued uh
0:17:12 you know the sacrifice made by god
0:17:15 for himself on behalf of humanity to pay
0:17:18 the debt back to himself
0:17:21 doesn't quite work because god of course
0:17:24 isn't the one who is in debt
0:17:26 and others of course would say what
0:17:28 about things like well
0:17:30 is it the recompense of a debt which of
0:17:32 course wouldn't work either because god
0:17:34 isn't the one who was at fault in this
0:17:36 context and as i would say about the
0:17:38 anselmian tradition
0:17:40 that
0:17:41 would it work if god is
0:17:44 you know trying to pay that that back to
0:17:46 himself
0:17:48 uh
0:17:49 but by doing it in a way that infringes
0:17:51 upon the night of rights of somebody
0:17:52 else jesus christ in this sense which of
0:17:55 course speaks of a great injustice but
0:17:57 christian theologians have argued about
0:17:59 all of these things
0:18:00 william then craig in fact in my book of
0:18:02 course is a great response
0:18:04 to dr william lane craig divine
0:18:06 perfection i go to each of his arguments
0:18:08 but he speaks about these in terms of
0:18:10 retributivism
0:18:12 but if it's a positive or a negative one
0:18:14 that the idea that even if one says that
0:18:18 it was something that was uh
0:18:21 you know
0:18:22 it was some kind of a difficulty placed
0:18:24 on jesus christ at the cross
0:18:27 it was done in a positive way because of
0:18:29 the future outcome the greater end of
0:18:32 all of humanity being saved and second
0:18:35 to that of course was the idea that
0:18:37 jesus took a voluntary played a
0:18:39 voluntary role
0:18:40 in terms of agreeing to that sacrificial
0:18:43 death but all of these are tangents that
0:18:45 christian theolous of course debate
0:18:46 about and argue about you have of course
0:18:48 calvin spinner substitution theory which
0:18:50 is quite unique and different
0:18:52 and doesn't doesn't seem exactly like
0:18:55 the earlier ones and so the devil ran
0:18:58 some theory christians victory these are
0:18:59 like
0:19:00 theories that lasted for a very long
0:19:02 time in fact christus victor was for
0:19:04 almost one millennium of christians
0:19:07 believing this was a dominant theory
0:19:09 about how to understand sin
0:19:12 in the context of human salvation and
0:19:15 only much later after the reformation
0:19:17 you had the lutherans and calvin who
0:19:19 argued things like
0:19:21 the penal substitution even though there
0:19:23 are
0:19:24 for sure you know to be
0:19:26 courteous i mean there are of course
0:19:28 remnants of this in early traditions as
0:19:30 well but the idea that jesus christ pays
0:19:33 a price for everybody's sin that jesus
0:19:36 christ on on the cross takes on
0:19:38 humanity's sins
0:19:40 and pays the price himself remember of
0:19:43 course in the context of all of this
0:19:45 jesus christ is believed to be god
0:19:48 fully god or god man but depending on
0:19:51 how you
0:19:52 look at it if it's the god acting in
0:19:54 some ways and the man acting in other
0:19:56 ways but of course he is believed to be
0:19:58 a nicer in creed fully god
0:20:00 and so he's therefore
0:20:03 paying taking that price upon himself
0:20:05 paying it back but it's affected to
0:20:06 himself it isn't to soothe like in the
0:20:09 devil ransom theory it isn't to satisfy
0:20:12 the devil because it isn't the devil
0:20:14 who's been wrong this is god who's been
0:20:16 wronged and so therefore the anger the
0:20:18 wrath has to be appeased which means
0:20:20 soothed and it is god's wrath that of
0:20:22 course has to be
0:20:23 soothed uh and each of course these have
0:20:26 distractions and they have finer points
0:20:28 of detail as well but i mean that's the
0:20:30 christian idea
0:20:32 in a general sense about about sin and
0:20:35 its place in humanity what it does
0:20:38 and the catastrophe of sin
0:20:40 uh our alienation distancing from god
0:20:43 because of sin and the way that
0:20:45 christian theologians our church fathers
0:20:47 try to make
0:20:48 us try to make sense out of these
0:20:50 theories
0:20:51 about what is the role of god in the
0:20:53 cosmic scheme of things of human beings
0:20:56 and of
0:20:57 jesus christ himself
0:21:12 now
0:21:14 that is the first of my points i would
0:21:16 say however that
0:21:18 there are in academics today who
0:21:21 argue that
0:21:22 there is even
0:21:24 in spite or in light of these
0:21:26 theological models about atonement
0:21:29 no real consistency there is a lot of
0:21:32 ambiguity no real consistency and
0:21:34 nothing clear william lane craig in fact
0:21:36 argues in his book on the atonement that
0:21:39 early church fathers they weren't that
0:21:42 interested in this area of discussion
0:21:44 i mean there was no ecumenical council
0:21:46 about how to understand salvation there
0:21:48 was
0:21:49 big debates about who jesus christ was
0:21:51 and his person and everything else but
0:21:53 not about salvation
0:21:55 itself
0:21:56 douglas estes in his art and his article
0:22:00 on soteriology
0:22:02 in the encyclopedia of christian
0:22:04 civilization writes
0:22:06 that the greatest dilemma in soteriology
0:22:09 in the is a lack of clear and precise
0:22:12 biblical delineations
0:22:14 for the manner and means of salvation
0:22:18 in the bible salvation is paradoxical
0:22:21 at times
0:22:23 particular at times progressive at times
0:22:26 completed past at times future event
0:22:30 at times coming through faith at times
0:22:32 replaced sorry at times related to human
0:22:35 acts
0:22:36 the mosaic and anthological nature of
0:22:38 the bible adds to the mystery even
0:22:42 though salvation is arguably the lead
0:22:44 motif
0:22:45 of the entire bible there is no precise
0:22:48 or extended discussion of it
0:22:52 now to move on to my next point about
0:22:54 what i call the adamic conundrum i would
0:22:55 begin by saying in islamic paradigm we
0:22:58 have a lot of clarity things are very
0:23:00 clear unequivocal when it comes to
0:23:02 topics of sin and salvation but just
0:23:04 because we just ended on this point
0:23:06 about the ambiguity
0:23:08 in the christian traditions about
0:23:10 soteriology
0:23:11 the quran declares in chapter 22 chapter
0:23:14 22 verse 37 that it is not their meat
0:23:17 all their blood that reaches allah
0:23:20 it isn't their meat in a sacrificial
0:23:23 sacrificing of an animal it isn't the
0:23:25 meat or the blood that reaches god
0:23:27 it is your piety instead that reaches
0:23:30 him
0:23:31 that god isn't concerned about blood a
0:23:33 blood payment that the only way to
0:23:35 appease god would be through the blood
0:23:37 of of a person like jesus christ or
0:23:39 something it has to be blood payments
0:23:41 that's the only way but the quran is
0:23:43 reminding us it is not their meat or
0:23:45 their blood that reaches allah it is in
0:23:47 fact instead your piety what is
0:23:49 concerned about you
0:23:51 about me
0:23:52 what is concerned about you and mine our
0:23:55 human consciousness about our repentance
0:23:58 about our tears about our sincerity
0:24:01 the point of soteriology is about
0:24:03 something personal between you and god
0:24:06 not about an external event that happens
0:24:09 of course which christians of course
0:24:10 argues is really important but it's
0:24:12 about you more than anything else it's
0:24:14 about your failing you're lacking all of
0:24:16 us as human beings and so in the islamic
0:24:19 paradigm we have an amazing story
0:24:22 which is is in some ways similar some
0:24:24 ways different to the adamic narrative
0:24:27 in the book of genesis so where we both
0:24:29 agree therefore that god sends adam uh
0:24:32 you know to the to the to the garden of
0:24:33 eden in genesis and they're both
0:24:36 commanded to eat from the tree and uh
0:24:38 sorry no e from the tree and to enjoy
0:24:40 the garden uh and the devil comes in a
0:24:42 form of a serpent and they convince his
0:24:44 eave to eat from the tree and then he
0:24:46 gives the she gives the fruit to adam
0:24:49 and they're both condemned the quran has
0:24:51 something similar but where we detract
0:24:54 where the point of separation emerges is
0:24:56 really right here
0:24:57 at this point
0:24:59 what happens then what happens at that
0:25:01 point
0:25:02 is it true that there is some kind of a
0:25:05 perpetual condemnation eternal spiritual
0:25:10 physical
0:25:11 separation between god and adam or is
0:25:14 this something else the quran spells it
0:25:16 out like this in the second chapter of
0:25:17 the quran chapter 2 verse 26 37
0:25:20 it says that allah says
0:25:25 that the devil satan calls them both to
0:25:27 slip
0:25:29 stumble the word arabic is zell which of
0:25:32 course connotes something different to a
0:25:34 fall which seems perpetual but a slip
0:25:37 and a stumble is something you can kind
0:25:38 of get back get your get yourself back
0:25:40 up on your feet if you still slipped and
0:25:42 stumbled on the prayers that we recite
0:25:45 when we leave our homes every day
0:25:47 as a prophet what is that we say
0:25:52 i seek refuge with you oh god that i
0:25:55 slip or stumble or cause others to slip
0:25:57 and stumble or behave ignorantly or have
0:26:00 injustice done unto me or do unto others
0:26:03 a prayer that we recite about the zell
0:26:06 but then it says and then they were
0:26:07 removed from where they were
0:26:09 we of course also believe in the element
0:26:10 of divine justice
0:26:12 god had forewarned adam oh adam this
0:26:15 devil is your enemy
0:26:17 so don't let him therefore expel you and
0:26:19 your wife from the garden because then
0:26:20 you're going to be wretched and
0:26:21 miserable
0:26:23 and adam and his wife were expelled from
0:26:24 the garden when they ate from that tree
0:26:26 we also believe in that concept as well
0:26:28 but the point is this about
0:26:31 where is god's love in this whole
0:26:34 debate
0:26:35 where is god's closeness and mercy in
0:26:37 this whole debate and one thing that
0:26:39 you'll find in islamic paradigm is that
0:26:41 that love that closeness allah being
0:26:44 the ever near is reflected throughout
0:26:46 the entire narrative
0:26:48 so adam of course slips but then the
0:26:50 next verse verse 37 is very key
0:26:53 because it says
0:26:58 allah says that adam receives words from
0:27:01 his lord
0:27:02 what does it mean to receive words from
0:27:04 his lord remember adam of course is by
0:27:06 himself there's no other prophets around
0:27:09 to ask what to do what to do i'm stuck
0:27:11 i've made a mistake i've sinned what do
0:27:13 i do
0:27:14 and allah says god says he's adam has
0:27:16 received words from these are words of
0:27:18 inspiration it is not only that adam of
0:27:22 course in that stricken state
0:27:24 of isolation now needs to call upon god
0:27:26 and ask for forgiveness it isn't even
0:27:29 like that because allah says
0:27:32 and taba means
0:27:34 you know to relent to lean towards allah
0:27:38 says adam receives words of inspiration
0:27:41 and teaching from his lord
0:27:43 and then god relents towards him
0:27:45 that means something remarkable that
0:27:47 means that the whole paradigm of love is
0:27:50 etched into this narrative that god is
0:27:53 maximally loving maximally merciful and
0:27:55 close to his servant adam then he says
0:27:58 he is tawaba rahim he is of repenting
0:28:01 and meaning accepting of repentance and
0:28:04 merciful and what were these words that
0:28:06 adam received from his law these were
0:28:08 words teaching adam how to ask for
0:28:11 forgiveness what does adam know of
0:28:13 course doesn't know that much but allah
0:28:15 is teaching and aiding and assisting
0:28:17 adam to get back up on his feet this
0:28:19 becomes an archetype paradigmatic for
0:28:22 all of us as his progeny as his future
0:28:25 generations one after the other how do
0:28:28 we then get back up on our feet how do
0:28:29 we ask for god's clemency and mercy and
0:28:32 the words that adam received from his
0:28:33 laws were these in the quran we learned
0:28:35 that they said
0:28:36 they said both of them said
0:28:40 our lord we have wronged our souls
0:28:44 and if you don't forgive us and have
0:28:46 mercy on us we're going to be all the
0:28:47 losers think about that number one our
0:28:50 lord
0:28:52 our lord
0:28:54 i mean you know you see of course
0:28:56 servitude in that our lord to know of
0:28:59 course that they have a lord and they
0:29:01 are of course allah says
0:29:04 o people anto
0:29:06 in allah you're all impoverished and
0:29:08 weak and needy before god and allah is
0:29:12 free of all need and full of all praise
0:29:15 right that's adam's lord
0:29:17 our lord we have wronged our souls
0:29:20 recognition
0:29:21 that whatever we've done isn't a good
0:29:23 thing we've wronged our souls to accept
0:29:26 responsibility recognition and if you
0:29:29 don't forgive us and imagine that means
0:29:31 only you forgive
0:29:33 and who else could we ask is if it isn't
0:29:35 you
0:29:36 and allah the quran says you know who is
0:29:38 the one that forgives sins except allah
0:29:41 allah is there a deity with allah
0:29:45 little is it that you recollect and
0:29:47 remember
0:29:48 who forgives sins except allah
0:29:51 then they say that
0:29:53 we've wronged our souls if you don't
0:29:54 have mercy on us we're going to be of
0:29:56 the lewis i mean there are consequences
0:29:57 for our sins
0:29:59 our state if it remains the way it is
0:30:01 and we don't seek you we're going to
0:30:03 remain in that wretched state of
0:30:05 alienation we also believe that but it's
0:30:07 reflected therefore in that beautiful
0:30:09 prayer of adam and his wife but remember
0:30:11 it isn't just adam's way though of what
0:30:13 to say and what do we say let's let's
0:30:15 decide what to say it is that god is
0:30:17 inspiring adam with those words to
0:30:19 enable and assist them out of his love
0:30:21 and closeness and kindness
0:30:24 the adamic conundrum therefore is really
0:30:26 is a really archetypal an adamic
0:30:29 archetype in the islamic narrative
0:30:30 because it shows us
0:30:32 an original state of love
0:30:35 between god and his creation not a
0:30:37 perpetual eternal damnation then all
0:30:39 these ambiguous atonement theories have
0:30:42 to emerge after that to try and make
0:30:44 sense of the whole thing and they're
0:30:45 still emerging now you still have
0:30:47 eternal theories developing in motion to
0:30:50 try and make better sense of the richard
0:30:52 swinburne's theory of you have others
0:30:54 athenaeus mystery you have so many
0:30:56 theories trying to understand what
0:30:58 actually happened in that time
0:31:02 so therefore we've gone through
0:31:04 the christian position the adamic
0:31:07 conundrum what about sin and salvation
0:31:10 in the islamic paradigm then
0:31:12 well number one we begin by saying that
0:31:14 what is man in the islamic context what
0:31:17 are we as humans
0:31:19 in islam we learn that man is is weak
0:31:23 we're limited that we're prone to error
0:31:25 we have failings we have temporality we
0:31:27 have
0:31:28 we have weaknesses and vulnerabilities
0:31:30 all of this is what makes us really
0:31:32 human we're not gods we're not perfect
0:31:34 adam wasn't perfect adam wasn't god
0:31:36 either
0:31:37 so remember it's an expectation debate
0:31:39 as well what did god expect from adam if
0:31:42 adam's created in that weak temporal
0:31:44 state
0:31:45 if he was a god and of course there are
0:31:47 two gods in this sense but then of
0:31:49 course expectations are different but as
0:31:51 a temporal weak human beings what were
0:31:53 the expectations if he is predisposed to
0:31:56 sin or preaches predisposed to make
0:31:58 mistakes and to er for example
0:32:01 so in islam we believe therefore that
0:32:02 man you know has this element of being
0:32:05 prone in that sense predisposed to sin
0:32:07 in some ways but at the same time
0:32:10 although we see horrendous
0:32:14 displays of evil sometimes in human
0:32:16 beings and we can't avoid that we also
0:32:19 see dazzling displays of goodness in my
0:32:22 book on being human
0:32:23 which i wrote
0:32:25 after the christ church massacre in new
0:32:27 zealand christchurch i wrote on being
0:32:28 human in fact both of my books
0:32:31 this is an academic book which might be
0:32:33 in fact in your library here in this
0:32:34 university navigating what's in empathy
0:32:37 by springer are both really about the
0:32:40 about the great place of empathy in us
0:32:43 as human beings um but of course it's
0:32:45 set against othering and dehumanization
0:32:48 of course those are the worst of us
0:32:50 but empathy bearing is one of the the
0:32:52 best things about what it means for us
0:32:53 to be humans allah the quran says
0:33:00 allah says consider the human being how
0:33:02 the self could be inspired by
0:33:05 moral depravities but also by
0:33:07 saintliness and goodness and you could
0:33:09 find that in fact in one one person but
0:33:12 then that isn't the most remarkable
0:33:14 thing
0:33:15 it's what comes after this in this
0:33:17 chapter of the quran
0:33:19 it says
0:33:22 successful is that one
0:33:25 who purifies himself or at least works
0:33:27 and labors to purify himself and a loss
0:33:30 is the one that neglects himself
0:33:33 that allows himself to go to bad places
0:33:36 that's the loser in the islamic paradigm
0:33:39 but there is a sense of responsibility
0:33:42 upon man to check himself to evaluate
0:33:45 himself now of course he's not going to
0:33:47 be perfect because he's not god to be
0:33:49 perfect right but god doesn't have the
0:33:52 expectation for an a human being who
0:33:54 isn't god to be perfect but allah
0:33:57 expects that human being to to work and
0:33:59 to try one of allah's beautiful names is
0:34:02 a shakur which means the appreciative
0:34:04 one allah is these attributes pair up in
0:34:08 the quran allah is all forgiving and all
0:34:10 appreciative
0:34:12 allah is all loving and all appreciative
0:34:16 allah is merciful and loving
0:34:20 allah is all loving and forgiving
0:34:22 beautiful pairing of attributes in the
0:34:24 quran so in islamic paradigm therefore
0:34:27 in terms of so terrible
0:34:30 or the element of salvation in islam
0:34:32 what do we have we have that we're human
0:34:35 beings we're bound to make mistakes but
0:34:38 allah is reminding us that in the course
0:34:40 of those mistakes never lose sight of
0:34:42 the fact that you have you have me you
0:34:44 have god in your lives allah says say o
0:34:48 my servants who have wronged their souls
0:34:50 do not despair of the mercy of allah
0:34:53 allah forgives all sins and allah is
0:34:55 merciful
0:34:57 and allah is forgiving so therefore we
0:34:59 shouldn't lose hope of the fact that
0:35:01 there is a creep that we could ask if we
0:35:03 slip up in life it doesn't mean
0:35:05 that you know we we treat sin so lightly
0:35:08 because that's antithetical to the quran
0:35:11 allah in fact is very strict and severe
0:35:13 in people who think like that to think
0:35:15 of sin so lightly
0:35:16 so therefore the outline in islam is
0:35:18 this
0:35:19 that when you think about toba which is
0:35:22 repentance what does it mean it means
0:35:24 number one the condition is this you
0:35:26 have to have a heart and a mind that is
0:35:28 conscious a heart and a mind that is
0:35:31 awake
0:35:32 not just about repeating prayers like on
0:35:34 the rosary beads like saying this saying
0:35:36 this not about that
0:35:38 a heart and a mind that is awakened
0:35:40 conscience so for example when allah god
0:35:42 tells moses to go to pharaoh
0:35:46 and says to moses
0:35:49 go to pharaoh because he has
0:35:50 transgressed all limits
0:35:52 it's so beautiful because god is
0:35:55 instructing
0:35:56 moses with the words to say to pharaoh
0:35:59 not like something scripted
0:36:01 he says say to him
0:36:07 he says to
0:36:09 uh
0:36:10 he says to moses say to pharaoh would
0:36:12 you want to attain to purification and i
0:36:15 would guide you to your lord and you
0:36:17 will be in awe
0:36:18 and full of reverence to him
0:36:21 meaning without this you can't even
0:36:23 think about repentance
0:36:25 because your heart is in the wrong place
0:36:27 to think about repentance
0:36:29 which means of course the conditions to
0:36:31 be in the state of consciousness
0:36:34 to leave the sins that you're committing
0:36:36 that's genuine to make a promise that
0:36:39 you would never return to those sins and
0:36:41 to feel this deep sense of remorse in
0:36:43 your heart for having committed those
0:36:45 sins in the first place so allah
0:36:47 subhanahu wa ta'ala god almighty is
0:36:50 merciful
0:36:52 names of allah by the way the these
0:36:55 these words because these words in fact
0:36:57 come from the
0:36:58 the primary origin of the meaning is
0:37:01 which means
0:37:06 all come from which means a womb
0:37:08 and what is the womb
0:37:10 the womb is a place of protection
0:37:12 a place of safety a place of security
0:37:16 a place of warmth
0:37:18 a place of comfort for that unborn child
0:37:22 the womb
0:37:24 right so rahman rahim has a kind of
0:37:27 maternal character of mercy behind it
0:37:30 right we become protecting to one
0:37:33 another because the prophet of allah the
0:37:35 the i mentioned the beginning that the
0:37:37 merciful ones are those whom the all
0:37:39 merciful shows mercy to us be merciful
0:37:42 to those on the earth and allah we must
0:37:45 fall unto you meaning be that sense of
0:37:46 protection and warmth unto others but
0:37:48 always also feel that sense of comfort
0:37:50 knowing that you have a lord who is
0:37:52 loving who is caring protecting and
0:37:55 forgiving
0:37:56 and so
0:37:57 i want to end by
0:37:59 saying at the same time you know in the
0:38:01 whole biblical narrative of jesus christ
0:38:03 and married is a very interesting verse
0:38:05 in the quran
0:38:07 that says that when
0:38:08 when mary is there in her chamber you
0:38:10 know before the birth of jesus christ
0:38:12 and the angel comes to give her the
0:38:13 great news of the birth of jesus christ
0:38:16 it says that the angel comes in in a
0:38:18 beautiful form handsome man basharan
0:38:21 sawyer
0:38:22 and the angel says and and then mary of
0:38:24 course is startled thinking
0:38:26 like what kind of she thinks is an
0:38:28 intruder
0:38:29 and she says quality
0:38:33 i seek refuge with
0:38:36 you
0:38:36 if you have any righteousness in you
0:38:39 meaning i know who my protector is
0:38:43 i know who the merciful one is not that
0:38:45 the one she would give birth to becomes
0:38:48 this kind of a means of mercy for the
0:38:50 world it's god already who is the most
0:38:54 merciful we ask allah for for
0:38:57 for goodness and for ease um and i hope
0:39:00 is it time up or is it still time to go
0:39:03 a few minutes all right okay so this is
0:39:05 a recap therefore i began by saying that
0:39:07 there is of course some things that we
0:39:09 have in common with us and our christian
0:39:10 friends
0:39:11 we believe of course sin exists we
0:39:13 believe that sin separates
0:39:15 man from god in in different ways but i
0:39:17 want to end in inshallah in this point
0:39:19 because it's been reminded right now
0:39:22 and that is this that when you think
0:39:24 about the adamic conundrum you might say
0:39:26 for example
0:39:27 maybe this is unique as a unique case
0:39:30 for adam himself
0:39:32 maybe god was relenting to adam
0:39:34 and it's a unique case for adam but i
0:39:37 want to show you therefore in this one
0:39:38 beautiful verse in the quran in the
0:39:40 ninth chapter of the quran this concerns
0:39:42 three individuals who were
0:39:44 supposed to partake in an expedition
0:39:47 with the prophet of islam the prophet
0:39:48 muhammed economy peace called the battle
0:39:50 of tabuk
0:39:52 and these three individuals made excuses
0:39:55 and remained back
0:39:57 everybody else had gone it was needed
0:39:59 for them to go they all left but these
0:40:00 three they just kept procrastinating and
0:40:02 they remained behind
0:40:04 so what happened is that as the days
0:40:06 progressed and nights progressed they
0:40:08 felt this sense of of of unease
0:40:12 and allah in the quran at the end of it
0:40:14 all after days and weeks had passed
0:40:17 allah speaks about the three
0:40:19 who remained behind
0:40:21 and allah
0:40:27 the three who remained behind until
0:40:30 the earth
0:40:32 became so constricted and squeezed and
0:40:35 restricted for them even though the
0:40:38 earth is wide and spacious
0:40:42 and their souls became so constricted
0:40:45 and squeezed and restricted for them
0:40:48 as well
0:40:50 meaning that's the consequence of sin
0:40:53 that sense of alienation what am i
0:40:55 supposed to do in the situation
0:40:57 you feel labored you feel pressured
0:40:59 but then it says
0:41:02 and they realized
0:41:03 that there is no refuge from god except
0:41:06 going back to god
0:41:08 there's no re there's no running from
0:41:10 god except going back to god
0:41:13 and then it says
0:41:17 and then god turned to them so that they
0:41:20 turned to him
0:41:22 and that's the key point
0:41:24 and then god turned to them
0:41:26 so that they turn to him
0:41:29 and god is accepting of repentance and
0:41:31 merciful it's the same thing with adam
0:41:35 that god turned to him before adam had a
0:41:38 chance to turn back to god
0:41:40 that's a reflection of god's love
0:41:42 and forgiveness and closeness and mercy
0:41:45 allah calls himself al-qarib in the
0:41:47 quran the evanehan
0:41:50 kareem all herring
0:41:52 mujib all narring and all responding
0:41:55 that allah says
0:41:57 who is the one that responds to the
0:41:59 distressed one when he calls upon god
0:42:03 and removes the the strain of that
0:42:06 and makes you inheritance in the land
0:42:10 is there another deity with god himself
0:42:13 little is it that you recount and and
0:42:15 that you remember
0:42:17 i'm going to end here because i think my
0:42:18 time is now up thank you so much for
0:42:20 listening may allah bless you allah
0:42:23 [Applause]
0:42:30 you very much
0:42:31 i'm going to invite you to bring us our
0:42:33 alley
0:42:34 to present
0:42:36 this perspective
0:42:39 yes thank you very much
0:42:48 well
0:42:49 [Music]
0:42:50 thank you very much dr lee for all that
0:42:53 you've said
0:42:54 uh
0:42:55 i uh the briefing i was given was that
0:42:59 we would each present our own uh
0:43:02 point of view in superiority
0:43:04 uh so the muslims would present
0:43:07 the christians theirs dr the teaching
0:43:09 forces spent quite a lot of
0:43:11 [Music]
0:43:18 [Music]
0:43:25 about certain important things
0:43:27 in islam
0:43:28 about sacrifice and intercession and
0:43:32 sandwich
0:43:34 but of course there is a lot that is
0:43:37 pointed out um
0:43:40 i suppose uh what we are really talking
0:43:43 about
0:43:44 is what we are to be saved from
0:43:47 what is what we are in the same form
0:43:50 uh
0:43:51 thank you
0:43:52 what is the human condition uh and the
0:43:55 differences as well as the similarities
0:43:58 i think uh
0:44:00 uh will have to do with a proper
0:44:02 estimate of
0:44:05 an adequate anthropology
0:44:11 [Music]
0:44:33 [Music]
0:44:34 characterized uh human beings as um
0:44:39 in brain in conflict with nature
0:44:41 conflict
0:44:42 among themselves and even conflict
0:44:50 things should be experienced as mercy
0:44:53 and love is actually
0:44:55 they
0:44:57 had revenge
0:44:58 and are in serious conflict
0:45:02 and
0:45:03 when you know what the solution was in
0:45:05 the dialectical process and how
0:45:07 we would come to uh overcome this
0:45:10 conflict
0:45:11 uh call once also i mean uh one of the
0:45:24 [Music]
0:45:31 whether there's no homework he or she
0:45:37 produces from one another because the
0:45:40 needs of last production
0:45:42 make sure that workers cannot
0:45:47 [Music]
0:45:57 [Music]
0:45:59 uh also shows that there is an inaudible
0:46:02 in human beings
0:46:07 the desires of the human person
0:46:10 but also
0:46:12 the existence of conscience
0:46:14 and that the demands of society are in
0:46:16 tension with one another
0:46:20 and how that is that
0:46:23 has to be
0:46:25 has to
0:46:27 uh be not of course only um
0:46:30 in recent times that uh
0:46:32 throughout history there has been the
0:46:34 sense of reception that
0:46:37 afghanistan from oxford had analyzed
0:46:40 uh the sense of
0:46:42 the universal destruction in many
0:46:45 countries
0:46:46 um
0:46:47 [Music]
0:46:48 um
0:46:50 which i can tell you about if you want
0:46:52 later on
0:46:53 uh but basically we've analyzed three
0:46:55 asian cultures of china and india
0:46:59 to see how there is
0:47:01 this sense of deception how it is
0:47:03 experienced
0:47:04 and what is done to restore
0:47:07 what he calls
0:47:10 [Music]
0:47:23 in all of these cultures uh sacrifice
0:47:27 is the way
0:47:28 in which things are restored whether
0:47:30 these are serials or vibrations or an
0:47:32 enemy to restrain an original harmony
0:47:36 that has somehow been destroyed
0:47:40 when we come to the bible uh to the the
0:47:42 hebrew bible uh first of all uh
0:47:45 we find that
0:47:47 sacrifice is of two kinds i mean there
0:47:49 is the communion sacrifice where the
0:47:52 believers eat with one another in the
0:47:55 presence of god
0:47:57 uh
0:47:59 to
0:48:01 attempt a restoration of harmony
0:48:11 [Music]
0:48:19 efforts are tell by the names of the
0:48:22 sins for which they are referrals
0:48:25 um so then it says
0:48:27 in 2 corinthians 5 21 for instance
0:48:32 [Music]
0:48:44 [Music]
0:48:47 this there is a growing sense
0:48:50 that
0:48:50 the sacrifice of animals and of bullets
0:48:54 is not enough
0:48:56 there is a constant tension in the
0:48:57 writing prophets about this
0:49:01 and that uh
0:49:02 what is required is self-centered
0:49:06 the sacrifices of god have a broken
0:49:08 spirit and a complete heart of where you
0:49:10 will not destroy self-esteem
0:49:16 what does that demand he demands a lot
0:49:18 of dresses a lot of kindness
0:49:21 uh
0:49:22 in the book of my care and the way
0:49:24 humbly would play
0:49:28 what he would
0:49:29 is justice
0:49:31 rolling down like waters
0:49:33 and righteousness like the street
0:49:38 the problem is where is
0:49:42 such sacrifice to be found are human
0:49:45 beings able
0:49:47 to offer this kind of sacrifice
0:49:49 by one's certain sex that
0:49:52 is necessary
0:49:54 and
0:49:55 already in the song we find that
0:49:57 consciousness and there is
0:50:00 it is
0:50:01 it is a particular earth
0:50:04 who is required a particular kind of
0:50:07 person
0:50:08 so um
0:50:10 [Music]
0:50:17 [Music]
0:50:25 is that human beings are cared in this
0:50:27 social religion
0:50:29 from which they are unable
0:50:32 to free themselves
0:50:35 and
0:50:38 free um or remain unbelievable
0:50:42 to free themselves so spend that is
0:50:44 needed
0:50:45 who can stand the human story again
0:50:48 uh adam is not good enough to start the
0:50:51 story again without an asparagus story
0:50:55 and the results of that spoiling
0:50:58 um
0:50:59 we continue to see the marriage
0:51:01 seriously
0:51:02 cannot at all be ignored because the
0:51:06 uh good
0:51:13 [Music]
0:51:21 of humanity
0:51:23 uh what kind of person
0:51:25 would that be
0:51:27 now what we believe about the sacrifice
0:51:31 of christ
0:51:32 has to do with
0:51:34 there i have this to do your will
0:51:38 i think that is the key
0:51:40 and of course there are many different
0:51:41 aspects um
0:51:43 to what christians believe about
0:51:46 the attorney
0:51:48 preparing and
0:51:51 there is of course
0:51:53 the demonstration of god's love
0:51:55 it is not enough to say
0:51:57 god is love we need to see
0:52:00 powerful islam
0:52:04 and that this is seen of course to
0:52:06 understand anything
0:52:07 like that in the person
0:52:10 in the coming and the person of jesus
0:52:12 christ not only is dying but in his
0:52:15 teaching and his miracles
0:52:18 in his association with people
0:52:20 uh who needed to be brought back to god
0:52:23 and in many other ways
0:52:27 which is a demonstration of god's love
0:52:30 and
0:52:31 some of you will be familiar with uh
0:52:33 bill manson's uh great uh point
0:52:36 uh which ends with these words therefore
0:52:39 exposes god
0:52:41 helpless hangs upon the tree
0:52:44 hands
0:52:45 [Music]
0:52:50 you see it is this kind of
0:52:52 completely empty sacrificial
0:52:56 which is a
0:52:57 demonstration of god's club
0:53:00 but his sacrifice is exemplary as uh
0:53:04 abella
0:53:05 said
0:53:07 in another video which is that it bears
0:53:09 half the time
0:53:11 it tells us the fellow animals who will
0:53:13 very recently use must take back their
0:53:16 enterprise
0:53:17 and the sufis were very taken by this
0:53:20 idea again and again they referred to
0:53:22 the
0:53:23 idea
0:53:24 of taking up the cause
0:53:26 to further the part of jesus
0:53:28 um you're the famous diverse by nadine
0:53:33 who was a contemporary of uh
0:53:39 [Music]
0:53:54 is the objective so what are the
0:53:57 objective use
0:53:58 of the appointment that we need to
0:54:00 consider i think first of all uh jesus
0:54:04 has represented the view as
0:54:07 uh the second heaven the
0:54:14 uh that is to say the human story has to
0:54:17 begin again and human beings
0:54:20 are beginning that story again because
0:54:23 of the sin in which they are fed
0:54:26 all right but it has to be
0:54:28 uh
0:54:29 it has to be really wrong uh it has to
0:54:32 begin again
0:54:34 and where jesus is in that sense a
0:54:37 second adam
0:54:39 to the fight and to the rescue pain as
0:54:42 it says in john henry newman's uh great
0:54:45 thing
0:54:46 so what we have here is the creation of
0:54:49 humanity spared by sin destroyed by the
0:54:52 rebellion made once again an image of
0:54:55 the creator
0:54:57 that of course the writers describe the
0:54:59 iphone or the image of bread in several
0:55:01 places in the new testament
0:55:04 so this humanity comes to a climax the
0:55:07 perfection of life in his
0:55:10 uh complete oneness of god's will
0:55:14 uh in his complete faithfulness in his
0:55:16 oblivion offering of himself
0:55:19 as representative of humanity as a help
0:55:24 and of course
0:55:26 that once that story begins again people
0:55:31 are invited to join that story
0:55:34 [Music]
0:55:37 in the following of jesus in the
0:55:38 solidarity with jesus to become part of
0:55:41 that new humanity
0:55:44 but he's also substituted
0:55:50 [Music]
0:56:00 faithfulness efforts
0:56:02 that he actually bears a punishment that
0:56:04 is due to us
0:56:07 that is to say what happens with jesus
0:56:11 in his suffering
0:56:13 and because it's something that should
0:56:14 have happened to us because
0:56:17 but it happens to him because he stands
0:56:19 in a place
0:56:21 to restore
0:56:22 the human
0:56:23 [Music]
0:56:25 family
0:56:26 to
0:56:27 friendship with god
0:56:31 [Music]
0:56:37 mentioned this idea of jesus as victor
0:56:41 and this has to do not
0:56:44 [Music]
0:56:52 is
0:57:09 that was the fundamental idea of this
0:57:12 passive union
0:57:13 that was arrived by martin luther and
0:57:16 then revived it again in the 20th
0:57:17 century by justin bieber
0:57:22 victory over evil is celebrated in the
0:57:24 heart of course
0:57:26 but we don't have to take the enemy
0:57:29 uh for the reaction
0:57:31 so that those are the objective uh
0:57:37 [Music]
0:57:48 [Music]
0:57:53 standing in the um of humanity this
0:57:55 inauguration of the new humanity is
0:57:57 vindicated by jesus rising from the dead
0:58:00 which then becomes the places for our
0:58:06 hope in islam says
0:58:08 that in christianity that direction the
0:58:10 ideal resurrection is based on the
0:58:12 resurrection and historic test
0:58:16 whereas
0:58:18 that in islam this is actually based on
0:58:21 on a general
0:58:23 phenomenon of nature
0:58:26 but i think that should be correct
0:58:29 but
0:58:30 this
0:58:32 historic
0:58:34 event
0:58:45 so you can see the audience
0:58:59 [Music]
0:59:02 yes okay
0:59:04 um
0:59:12 [Music]
0:59:18 some
0:59:20 some proof that there can be a
0:59:22 resurrection
0:59:25 and the resurrection is not just
0:59:27 [Music]
0:59:28 relevant for us as individuals
0:59:35 [Music]
0:59:43 and not just for humanity but for
0:59:45 creation as a purpose
0:59:48 um
0:59:49 that the resurrection is actually a
0:59:51 factor
0:59:52 for the remainder of the universe of the
0:59:54 new heaven and the new life
0:59:56 and the celebrity
0:59:57 of the bible
1:00:03 [Music]
1:00:10 is
1:00:19 [Music]
1:00:25 christian ideology
1:00:29 [Music]
1:00:38 [Music]
1:00:40 reconciliation
1:00:42 uh that what jesus has done
1:00:46 has reverenced
1:00:47 both of us all of us who have been
1:00:49 estranged from god
1:00:51 to friendship
1:00:52 this is part of the most loving
1:01:11 spiritual moral
1:01:12 removal of the human person which should
1:01:14 reside
1:01:15 uh in
1:01:17 our solidarity with jesus directing
1:01:21 jesus
1:01:37 in some parts of the new testament
1:01:39 salvation is spoken of as in the past
1:01:43 by putting your trust
1:01:46 in what christ has done who he is
1:01:49 and that it also has to be worked out by
1:01:51 god's friends
1:01:53 of course um
1:01:54 this cannot just be
1:01:56 uh purifying ourselves
1:02:00 we are not able to do that but by going
1:02:02 to grace
1:02:04 [Music]
1:02:12 [Music]
1:02:24 uh to be restored to that fullness
1:02:27 that there in his life
1:02:29 uh and so to the same and
1:02:32 always rented
1:02:34 for human beings
1:02:36 but it is the working of god's will in
1:02:39 history
1:02:40 that is serving the world
1:02:42 so i think those were the sorts of
1:02:44 things i i wanted to say in the language
1:02:48 about
1:02:49 salvation and salvation history and the
1:02:52 place of christ
1:02:54 the central christ in that salvation
1:02:58 thank you very much
1:03:03 [Applause]
1:03:09 so following those two fascinating
1:03:11 presentations from both of our guest
1:03:13 speakers
1:03:14 we now move on to the second part of
1:03:15 this program which is dialogue between
1:03:18 dr nazar ali and dr
1:03:20 um so floor is yours whoever would like
1:03:22 to begin
1:03:24 all right well thank you so much for
1:03:25 your presentation it was really
1:03:26 wonderful hearing from you
1:03:28 and uh and i was very honored to be in
1:03:30 your kind of uh
1:03:32 company through
1:03:34 through space
1:03:35 in special identities we have spaces of
1:03:37 hair there and elsewhere
1:03:39 this is a space that kind of coalesces
1:03:41 ahead there and then elsewhere so i'm
1:03:43 very grateful for that i want to just
1:03:45 touch on something you mentioned right
1:03:46 at the end
1:03:48 i think there's sometimes a
1:03:50 misrepresentation of
1:03:52 of islam
1:03:53 from our christian friends
1:03:55 james langford in his very seminal
1:03:57 thesis some principles of mission for
1:03:59 muslims
1:04:00 writes that there is no that he said in
1:04:02 fact that the greatest barrier between
1:04:04 us two
1:04:05 is a doctrine of sin
1:04:07 and then he goes on to quote others
1:04:08 seventh-day adventists and others who
1:04:10 say that islam
1:04:13 you know for muslims don't have this
1:04:14 sense of
1:04:17 you could call estrangement between
1:04:18 themselves and god in the concept of the
1:04:21 sin
1:04:22 and see our marsh in fact in his in his
1:04:25 book says something similar he says that
1:04:28 um until only until when muslims see
1:04:31 themselves as sinful in the eyes of god
1:04:33 will they seek a savior
1:04:36 now one thing of course that they repeat
1:04:37 a lot which of course i cite in my book
1:04:39 a lot
1:04:40 divine perfection
1:04:42 i cite all of these different
1:04:43 missionaries
1:04:44 is that they say there's no concept of
1:04:47 grace in islam
1:04:48 now you ended by saying therefore that
1:04:50 we can't of course attain to
1:04:52 purification because we're reliant on
1:04:54 grace in fact that's exactly what allah
1:04:56 in the quran says
1:04:58 he says in one of the verses and this is
1:05:00 a recurring motif in the quran
1:05:02 allah says had it not been for the grace
1:05:04 and mercy of allah
1:05:06 you would never have purified yourselves
1:05:08 that's a specific verse in fact that's
1:05:10 recurring there's another one says has
1:05:12 it not been for the father of allah and
1:05:14 his mercy and allah
1:05:17 is accepting repentance and all wise it
1:05:20 happens again allah says it had it not
1:05:22 been for the grace and mercy of allah
1:05:23 and allah is
1:05:25 allah's compassion and merciful so we
1:05:27 also believe we're completely utterly
1:05:30 dependent on that grace of god in fact
1:05:32 the prophet muhammad once said that none
1:05:33 of you will enter heaven by his actions
1:05:36 and the prophet's companions were
1:05:37 startled and this is not even you or
1:05:39 messenger of allah because we see you
1:05:40 praying and fasting and doing things he
1:05:42 said not even me
1:05:44 except if allah was to shower me with
1:05:45 his mercy and his grace i think maybe
1:05:48 the the impression is that people see
1:05:50 muslims doing acts of worship like
1:05:53 praying or fasting or the five people
1:05:55 and they think that these things are
1:05:56 what must lead people to heaven we don't
1:05:58 actually believe that we believe that
1:06:00 all of us are bound entirely by that
1:06:02 divine grace and mercy of allah what do
1:06:05 you what do you think about that doctor
1:06:07 yes like
1:06:08 i'm very happy
1:06:10 to hear that
1:06:11 because sometimes the impression is with
1:06:14 people on the same side
1:06:23 the human
1:06:24 tendency to think that we can save
1:06:26 ourselves
1:06:28 uh when in fact you come
1:06:30 i think the question is uh
1:06:33 the further question in my mind is about
1:06:37 the way in which god shows us his mercy
1:06:40 and his life
1:06:42 i mean i think he might agree
1:06:50 [Music]
1:06:56 throughout the history of
1:06:59 for instance the people of israel
1:07:01 whom he chose
1:07:03 to be
1:07:06 for his
1:07:07 revelation and action
1:07:09 uh
1:07:11 among the prophets all of
1:07:22 [Music]
1:07:26 no disagreement among us on the basic
1:07:29 principle that it says god's grace is
1:07:32 preeminent
1:07:34 of course
1:07:35 i think our jewish friends would in
1:07:37 their contention with things like the
1:07:40 original sin
1:07:41 i would argue for example that there is
1:07:43 still even though of course they
1:07:45 wouldn't deny
1:07:46 the great need for god's love and god's
1:07:48 grace as well our jewish friends
1:07:50 but they might point for example
1:07:51 deuteronomy uh chapter 30 verse 14 where
1:07:55 god says you must keep the commandments
1:07:56 with all of your heart all of your mind
1:07:58 and this you must do
1:08:00 paul however in romans
1:08:03 10 10 8 i think it is he mentions that
1:08:06 but he cuts off that last part of the of
1:08:08 that deuteronomy uh
1:08:10 3014 where it says and you may do it
1:08:13 that's cut off from paul so it kind of
1:08:16 gives the impression well it's almost as
1:08:18 if like you mentioned and i think it's
1:08:20 quite paradoxical doctor when you said
1:08:22 that human beings are both unwilling and
1:08:25 unable it's kind of quite paradoxical
1:08:28 because that means that's kind of that
1:08:29 means we don't have anything to do
1:08:31 whereas if you look in genesis in fact
1:08:33 even when
1:08:35 god says to
1:08:37 cain and abel so cain of course is angry
1:08:39 because of his offering that he presents
1:08:42 and god says why are you angry cain
1:08:44 and
1:08:45 god says to him you know if you do good
1:08:48 if you do good it's going to be accepted
1:08:50 from you
1:08:51 but if you don't do good then sin will
1:08:53 be coming at your door but you must push
1:08:56 back against it that's the whole point
1:08:58 so when it comes for example to our
1:09:01 approach of attain of trying to attempt
1:09:03 that
1:09:04 purification it doesn't mean that we can
1:09:06 do it
1:09:07 because we effectively can't do it
1:09:09 because we're gonna fall short but the
1:09:11 point is if god is loving that means god
1:09:14 is appreciative if god is loving that
1:09:16 means god is kind and i think that
1:09:18 sometimes myself i think that sometimes
1:09:22 i just feel it's a bit of a ruse
1:09:23 sometimes if we keep on talking about
1:09:27 god being love
1:09:28 but remember in the christian paradigm
1:09:30 of atonement it effectively is uh
1:09:34 god
1:09:35 taking the full
1:09:37 price back to himself
1:09:40 there isn't actually pardoning pardoning
1:09:41 actually isn't there because all it is
1:09:43 is god was offended and wronged in
1:09:45 adam's sin but he wants the full payment
1:09:48 back to himself
1:09:49 through the sacrifice of jesus christ
1:09:52 who is actually him himself the second
1:09:55 person of the trinity and only then is
1:09:57 his anger going to be appeased
1:10:00 whereas in islamic paradigm it is that
1:10:02 like when you have for example people
1:10:04 sometimes people are forbearing that
1:10:07 they kind of they relent or they give in
1:10:09 they don't expect it's like for example
1:10:10 if i said to my son who's sitting here
1:10:12 in the audience and was very thrilled to
1:10:15 be able to hear your presentation as
1:10:17 well he's just right in front of me
1:10:19 he's doing his exams now very soon in a
1:10:21 few months and if i say to him uh here
1:10:23 they for you know i want you to get uh i
1:10:26 want you to get 10 a stars
1:10:28 and if you don't get 10 stars you're
1:10:30 grounded for the whole
1:10:31 summer otherwise you can't get to a
1:10:33 wonderful place like this since i called
1:10:35 it silly
1:10:36 and he studies so hard and i see him
1:10:38 studying hard and he gets nine a stars
1:10:41 but not 10 a stars
1:10:43 now either i can say well you know i got
1:10:45 to be i got to be just and my justice
1:10:47 means i'm still going to ground you for
1:10:49 the whole summer or i can say i saw you
1:10:52 studying hard
1:10:53 god of course is aware of our states all
1:10:56 of us have internalized states in fact
1:10:58 in the quran it says
1:11:03 say that you know whatever you hide in
1:11:05 yourself whatever you make apparent god
1:11:08 is of course aware of it so god knows of
1:11:11 course my struggles my difficulties my
1:11:14 my social environment impediments
1:11:17 restrictions and god knows you and all
1:11:19 of us
1:11:19 so therefore if i say as a father you've
1:11:21 got nine a stars and i saw you
1:11:23 struggling working so happy you didn't
1:11:25 get 10
1:11:26 no i of course still am able
1:11:28 to uh
1:11:30 not inflict that restriction on him of
1:11:33 grounding him for the whole summer
1:11:35 that's my prerogative as a loving father
1:11:37 i can say i choose to pardon you i
1:11:40 choose to have mercy on you over
1:11:42 exacting my justice
1:11:43 on you
1:11:45 what do you think
1:11:46 well
1:11:47 yes
1:11:49 and
1:11:50 my experience is
1:11:52 that what
1:11:56 my sons
1:11:57 have achieved when they might not have
1:12:00 achieved it on their own is blood sweat
1:12:03 and tears on my part
1:12:05 in making sure
1:12:20 uh
1:12:31 [Music]
1:12:45 [Music]
1:12:47 it is that jesus is standing in our
1:12:50 heads because we are unable to send
1:12:53 himself to um
1:12:57 which is
1:12:58 uh faithfulness
1:13:00 which is obedience
1:13:02 which which is being completely running
1:13:06 uh
1:13:07 with god in god's will
1:13:10 is required and of course jesus knew god
1:13:14 knew
1:13:15 that
1:13:16 the result
1:13:22 [Music]
1:13:27 of course of course
1:13:37 [Music]
1:13:44 demanding a vision yeah but i think the
1:13:47 problem is is that the the substitution
1:13:49 determinatory is actually
1:13:51 it's encapsulated in in discussions
1:13:53 about
1:13:54 about god's appeasement you can't avoid
1:13:56 that in these theoretical discussions
1:13:58 but other thing is this
1:14:01 you see the terms
1:14:03 of sacrifice
1:14:11 [Music]
1:14:24 yeah okay
1:14:25 i mean i have of course referenced these
1:14:27 things in my book divine perfection by
1:14:28 the way the book is available as a free
1:14:30 pdf ebook download on the safe institute
1:14:33 website which you can download yourself
1:14:35 the other thing i was thinking about is
1:14:37 yeah the other thing i was going to say
1:14:39 is that
1:14:40 if we if we say therefore that if you're
1:14:43 speaking about
1:14:45 what the first point is is that if we
1:14:47 say that we're creating this
1:14:50 scenario of
1:14:51 of jesus and adam and jesus of course
1:14:54 there's a second adam that pays a price
1:14:55 for our sins and refreshes things
1:14:58 but remember of course in christian
1:15:00 tradition jesus himself is god
1:15:03 so jesus isn't a human being like us
1:15:06 with our
1:15:07 fragilities and vulnerabilities jesus of
1:15:09 course is god in a christian paradigm so
1:15:11 it's not a kind of a fair
1:15:13 comparison uh or contrast if one is
1:15:17 god's creation adam and the other is god
1:15:20 himself jesus because what else would we
1:15:22 expect from jesus except perfection
1:15:24 because he's actually god himself but
1:15:26 the other problem is
1:15:32 this is
1:15:43 [Music]
1:15:53 yeah
1:15:54 yeah but that's the point i mean that's
1:15:55 the point the point is that's saying
1:15:57 that jesus is god and only god can do it
1:15:59 himself to pay the price back to himself
1:16:01 which i i don't i mean
1:16:08 bringing into existence and perfecting a
1:16:10 new kind of humanity
1:16:12 which necessarily involves suffering in
1:16:15 a rebellious way yeah but but yeah yeah
1:16:18 but it's but it's still going to be yeah
1:16:21 yeah of course of course go ahead um
1:16:25 [Music]
1:16:30 what the islamic news or sacrifice has
1:16:33 such
1:16:34 uh it does sacrifice have any
1:16:36 significance i mean you mentioned the
1:16:38 sacrifice of camels
1:16:45 and then you said what
1:16:59 [Music]
1:17:13 [Music]
1:17:14 some
1:17:16 and the ransoming of the boy
1:17:19 and the demon
1:17:21 with a tremendous victim
1:17:23 so what is i mean is
1:17:32 [Music]
1:17:34 the first thing the first quote the one
1:17:35 i mentioned chapter 2 verse 37 that it
1:17:38 is not their meat or their blood that
1:17:39 reaches allah that there is no concept
1:17:42 of a blood atonement through sacrifice
1:17:45 and islam
1:17:46 even sabbity enyab wile i think you
1:17:48 write about as well in his book on the
1:17:50 gospel for muslims says very plainly
1:17:53 there's no concept of blood atonement in
1:17:56 islam when it comes to for example
1:17:59 abraham and his son again it's not i
1:18:02 think it's a false equivocation because
1:18:03 the ransoming there is not about
1:18:06 atoning for abraham's sins
1:18:09 that's not how it's seen of course
1:18:12 there's no there's no similarity in a
1:18:15 christian paradigm here with that
1:18:17 because the element of atonement isn't
1:18:19 there in both examples of course in the
1:18:21 quran when you have like sacrifice of
1:18:23 animals there is an injunction to feed
1:18:25 that to the poor
1:18:27 as an act of obedience to god
1:18:29 but not for the purpose of
1:18:31 atonement through a blood
1:18:36 [Music]
1:18:39 about sacrifice and his son the
1:18:41 point about
1:18:43 ransom is not regarding the sun
1:18:46 but the animal
1:18:48 uh by which the sun is ransomed so it
1:18:51 says
1:18:53 [Music]
1:19:02 [Music]
1:19:04 you know what what is that
1:19:14 yesterday was that the ram
1:19:16 you know replaces the boy in that sense
1:19:18 isn't it the boy the ram is a ransom for
1:19:21 the boy so rather than of course adam is
1:19:24 not going to abram is going to sacrifice
1:19:25 his son but god replaces the ram you
1:19:28 know
1:19:29 where the boy and of course the whole
1:19:31 paradigm in the whole story is about
1:19:33 adam's obedience
1:19:35 to god
1:19:36 and ishmael's obedience
1:19:39 and ishmael's obedience to god so
1:19:41 there's no discussion of of of a
1:19:44 of a blood of an atonement of an
1:19:46 appeasement or anything like that in
1:19:47 that narrative
1:19:52 can i ask one question so my my
1:19:55 doctorate in fact is in is in crusader
1:19:57 history
1:19:58 uh my masters and doctor are both in
1:20:00 fact in the crusades
1:20:02 but one of the one of the things
1:20:05 interesting about so my first published
1:20:07 book is is about the crusades
1:20:09 um
1:20:10 when we say for example that
1:20:13 the sacrifice of jesus christ brings
1:20:15 forth kind of a new paradigm because
1:20:18 he's the new adam takes on kind of a new
1:20:21 he does things that adam didn't do and
1:20:23 now of course he's doing them he's
1:20:24 obedient adam was disobedient and a kind
1:20:27 of a new thing is regenerated
1:20:30 but of course you know we're not
1:20:32 actually saying that the world becomes
1:20:35 less sinful after jesus christ and nor
1:20:38 are we saying this because remember
1:20:40 um on account of that narrative
1:20:43 uh christians particularly you know
1:20:46 catholics committed many pogroms against
1:20:48 jews
1:20:49 and even on route to jerusalem of course
1:20:51 they committed the massacre in the
1:20:52 rhineland because they said why are we
1:20:54 fighting the muslims in jerusalem we
1:20:56 have those who killed our lord
1:20:58 here in the rhineland we should massacre
1:21:00 them first before we get to the muslims
1:21:02 and so if there is a narrative that's
1:21:04 built upon an injustice because remember
1:21:07 if jesus christ is is is being killed
1:21:10 there are of course perpetrators to that
1:21:12 there are those who are whipping and
1:21:13 they are lashing and everything else so
1:21:15 it is a scene of of brutality of torture
1:21:19 taking place
1:21:20 but would that sense of
1:21:22 uh you know global
1:21:25 re re uh what's the word regeneration or
1:21:28 reconciliation take place uh from an act
1:21:32 that is
1:21:33 really imbued with
1:21:34 with the character of an injustice and
1:21:37 and and horror that would lead
1:21:40 thereafter then to other horrors against
1:21:42 against jewish people because they're
1:21:43 going to blame the jews for killing the
1:21:45 lord
1:22:00 [Music]
1:22:09 at the um of christians and muslims and
1:22:12 romans and many other people
1:22:14 so
1:22:15 nobody is diffused from that except
1:22:19 maybe in southwest india the jews were
1:22:22 never
1:22:22 presented um
1:22:26 so
1:22:27 yeah i mean
1:22:30 this is the fact uh that is
1:22:33 found throughout salvation history
1:22:36 that the
1:22:46 and jesus is
1:22:49 i mean i'm surprised
1:23:12 right
1:23:13 do you have any any questions because
1:23:14 i'm asking two questions
1:23:17 um
1:23:26 [Music]
1:23:31 and god is spoken of
1:23:36 yeah so what's interesting for me is
1:23:37 that there's something i forgot to
1:23:39 mention in my presentation because i
1:23:40 think i was rushed for time and too
1:23:42 close for comfort tim like because i was
1:23:44 i was i was under pressure by our great
1:23:47 friend overheard him uh there's a
1:23:49 beautiful hadith where the prophet said
1:23:50 that
1:23:53 allah has a hundred parts of his mercy
1:23:59 and allah has revealed one part of that
1:24:01 mercy between humans and jinn
1:24:04 and even
1:24:06 even animals beasts and even insects
1:24:10 that we we believe that every everything
1:24:12 because we're speaking of course about
1:24:14 the fact that humans are capable of
1:24:16 horrendous evils and depravity and sin
1:24:19 and everything but we can't discount the
1:24:21 fact that humans also have
1:24:23 goodliness in them
1:24:25 humans to act of mercy and kindness and
1:24:27 and i think the rahim is so key because
1:24:30 the first the first i guess the first
1:24:33 sense of love
1:24:34 mercy pity compassion empathy that a
1:24:37 child would experience from the womb is
1:24:41 in fact from the mother
1:24:43 right and that's that's the thing so
1:24:45 that's rahim and that's rahma therefore
1:24:47 and the prophet muhammad in fact once
1:24:48 gave an example there was a woman who
1:24:50 was
1:24:52 frantically searching for her child
1:24:54 and the prophet's companions were there
1:24:56 and uh and the prophet says you see that
1:24:58 woman do you think that woman would ever
1:25:00 throw her child in a fire
1:25:02 and they said of course she would never
1:25:04 do that and the prophet said allah is
1:25:06 more merciful to his servants than that
1:25:07 woman is to her to her to her child so
1:25:10 we can learn it for a lot about
1:25:12 motherhood i i've written these two
1:25:14 books on on empathy and i've had to
1:25:16 learn a lot about human feeling and
1:25:18 empathy in this i'm always startled by
1:25:20 the account of primal levy in surviving
1:25:23 auschwitz in the holocaust maybe you
1:25:24 guys all know by on the first second
1:25:26 page when he's he's seeing the
1:25:28 i think he he gets he hears that the
1:25:31 these group of women who are mothers uh
1:25:33 head that the next day they're going to
1:25:35 be sent to the the death camp
1:25:38 and so primal levy is observing and he's
1:25:41 and he says uh i saw the mothers uh
1:25:45 uh you know packing like small bits of
1:25:47 biscuits and things for the babies
1:25:49 and washing their clothes and hanging
1:25:51 them on the wire you know and then he
1:25:54 asks rhetorically and he says
1:25:56 why would a mother do that knowing of
1:25:58 course that their kids the next day are
1:26:00 going to be gassed to death then he says
1:26:02 well wouldn't a mother stop being a
1:26:04 mother knowing that
1:26:06 a mother would always be your mother
1:26:08 because of that so i think we can learn
1:26:10 therefore a lot about that the paradigm
1:26:12 of motherhood and of course islam is
1:26:13 stressing upon us something quite unique
1:26:15 because it says whenever you find in the
1:26:17 quran where allah says worship god
1:26:20 or the the quran says we have been
1:26:22 joined upon man worshiping of god it
1:26:25 then says and showing excellence to
1:26:27 one's parents
1:26:29 you know never therefore to forget that
1:26:31 bond between child and and parent
1:26:33 particularly the mother in fact that's
1:26:36 that's an unbreakable bond and even if
1:26:38 allah in quran for example says that
1:26:40 even if your parents are pagans
1:26:42 polytheists allah says don't obey them
1:26:45 in that polytheism but
1:26:49 live with them with goodness and equity
1:26:52 and kindness in life so i think that we
1:26:54 can learn a lot about the great power of
1:26:56 empathy here as well and of course in
1:26:58 our discussions as theists as human
1:27:00 beings
1:27:04 christian ideas about human sinfulness
1:27:07 i mean i don't know would say that every
1:27:10 aspect of the human condition is fragile
1:27:13 but that does not mean in any way that
1:27:16 natural
1:27:27 [Music]
1:27:30 the idea of uh graham being used uh
1:27:36 it would be very interesting for you to
1:27:39 explore
1:27:40 how the syrian
1:27:41 tradition uses the girls as you know
1:27:49 [Music]
1:27:58 which would bring out
1:28:00 correspondences and perhaps better than
1:28:03 devoting the questioning traditions
1:28:07 um but i i thought that was an
1:28:09 interesting comment you may
1:28:11 make
1:28:26 to the name of um itself and also still
1:28:29 decline in the new testament can both be
1:28:33 evil
1:28:34 and homeless
1:28:35 as well as salvation in the spiritual
1:28:37 sense
1:28:39 it's interesting
1:28:41 thank you
1:28:46 all right
1:28:48 well thank you very much both of you for
1:28:50 that
1:28:52 stimulating discussion uh we're going to
1:28:54 throw open uh any questions anyone might
1:28:57 have for either speaker uh from the
1:29:00 floor
1:29:01 uh so one hand immediately back there
1:29:04 i'll run down this microphone
1:29:11 hi um dr michael can you hear me
1:29:18 um dr michael can you hear me
1:29:29 um
1:29:30 so
1:29:31 um i've heard quite a bit about the
1:29:35 paradigm of christianity from both of
1:29:36 you speaking um
1:29:39 and i was particularly intrigued by for
1:29:42 example the substitution theory uh
1:29:45 my question really is that
1:29:48 that there's a lot of focus on what was
1:29:50 done by adam and there's a lot of folks
1:29:51 from what was done by jesus
1:29:53 um
1:29:54 but i haven't really seen much of what
1:29:57 that says about our role
1:29:59 as humans right now so for example as a
1:30:02 muslim um
1:30:04 i believe that you know i was born uh
1:30:08 to be tested
1:30:09 and that while i'll only be allowed into
1:30:12 heaven by the grace of god
1:30:14 um it's i will be personally accountable
1:30:17 for my sins
1:30:19 this sentence can be forgiven and that
1:30:21 i'm constantly meant to ask for
1:30:23 forgiveness but i feel like when i'm i'm
1:30:25 listening to
1:30:27 speakers speaking about christianity
1:30:29 there's always a lot of focus on
1:30:32 what happened with adam and what
1:30:34 happened with jesus
1:30:36 uh
1:30:37 but the the ultimate message that i get
1:30:39 in the end was that
1:30:41 um the sacrifice or the atonement was
1:30:44 made by jesus and i'm just left a bit
1:30:46 confused as to what this is about what
1:30:48 we're meant to be doing now if there's
1:30:51 no if
1:30:52 you say that
1:30:54 um humans are unwilling and unable to
1:30:58 make up for them so then
1:31:00 what's really the motivation what's the
1:31:02 point of trying to live
1:31:04 a good life
1:31:08 yeah i'll try i mean it was quite a long
1:31:10 question
1:31:11 the brother asked he said he feels a
1:31:13 sense of frustration
1:31:15 when christians speak
1:31:17 about this topic because he says the
1:31:18 overriding focus
1:31:20 is of course on adam and then of course
1:31:23 the counter with jesus but he's saying
1:31:25 in light of the the theory of penal
1:31:27 substitution
1:31:29 if it is that jesus pays a price for our
1:31:31 sins he says in islamic paradigm of
1:31:33 course we recognize that
1:31:35 we're humans
1:31:36 life is a test
1:31:38 we're going to have
1:31:39 negative currents we push back against
1:31:41 them with good things and there's a day
1:31:42 of judgment we're going to be we're
1:31:44 going to be you know accounted for our
1:31:45 deeds
1:31:46 and there's a kind of a motivation
1:31:48 element there but in the christian
1:31:49 paradigm to argue
1:31:51 that jesus pays a price for all sins
1:31:53 he's asking what would then be the
1:31:55 motivation for him as a human being
1:31:58 rather than not just focusing on adam
1:31:59 and jesus but what is he supposed to do
1:32:01 as a human being now
1:32:04 so this is why i tried to explain that
1:32:07 what jesus has done is to inaugurate a
1:32:09 new kind of humanity and since what he
1:32:13 says
1:32:14 certain humanity should not have
1:32:17 an inclination to sin
1:32:19 much less actually commissioning
1:32:22 what is sinful
1:32:24 um so the motivation is to be part of
1:32:28 this new human project
1:32:30 uh and uh
1:32:33 to be accepted by god to be reconciled
1:32:36 with god to be accounted
1:32:38 uh rightly god uh to use the traditional
1:32:41 terminology
1:32:42 requires right conduct
1:32:45 light neighbor
1:32:46 uh all of these things without that
1:32:49 your claim that your right of god will
1:32:51 not be real
1:32:57 there are some things christians are
1:32:59 expected to do
1:33:00 and sometimes like dr william craig says
1:33:03 that the love of god is impartial
1:33:05 universal unconditional but there are of
1:33:07 course
1:33:08 problems with this because
1:33:10 there are many christians who say well
1:33:12 there are conditions to that love like
1:33:15 christians have to go through baptism do
1:33:18 the sacraments repentance and so on and
1:33:21 so forth uh and therefore it isn't just
1:33:24 as simple as
1:33:25 you know
1:33:26 jesus loves you and so forth yeah yeah
1:33:28 go ahead
1:33:29 okay uh so this is
1:33:31 a question for uh doctor
1:33:34 and um so basically in islam
1:33:37 um kind of salvation can be easily
1:33:40 simplified and boiled down to kind of
1:33:42 like
1:33:43 two aspects in this life and the next
1:33:45 life so in this life
1:33:48 you sin you ask god for forgiveness
1:33:50 and if you're sincere god forgives you
1:33:52 and then when it comes to the next life
1:33:54 what comes to your deeps your good deeds
1:33:57 god out god out of his mercy multiplies
1:33:59 them tenfold or by seven or even up to
1:34:01 700 times and then that way god shows
1:34:04 his mercy so that it is easier for you
1:34:06 to get to paradise as for your sins it's
1:34:08 only one bad sin for each sin
1:34:11 with the exception of that which he
1:34:12 forgives whether in this life or in the
1:34:14 next life and so it could be easily and
1:34:17 simply boil down to that
1:34:19 how do you how do christians simply and
1:34:22 clearly boil down their concept of
1:34:24 salvation to make it clear to understand
1:34:29 okay dr natalie if you couldn't hear
1:34:31 what our dear friend said
1:34:33 yeah so he's
1:34:34 yeah so what he's saying is that he's
1:34:35 saying of course in islam there are
1:34:37 paradigms of
1:34:38 uh many many things about of course the
1:34:40 prophet muhammad said that all of you
1:34:42 all of the sons of adam are sinners
1:34:44 and the best of those are those who go
1:34:46 back to god repeatedly repeatedly
1:34:48 seeking repentance
1:34:51 and what happens therefore the brother
1:34:53 was saying in some paradigm there are
1:34:54 ways that god has made it easier for
1:34:56 people
1:34:57 by increasing the reward for particular
1:35:00 deeds
1:35:00 uh and and kind of lessening the
1:35:04 severity of particular wrong deeds
1:35:06 allah of course does say that what does
1:35:09 allah have to do by punishing you
1:35:11 in
1:35:13 if you're grateful to god and if you if
1:35:15 you believe in god so what he's saying
1:35:16 therefore is that you have this paradigm
1:35:19 in islam of
1:35:20 uh which really emphasizes a lot about
1:35:22 god's forgiveness and mercy
1:35:24 uh what he's saying is that what what
1:35:26 what is what exists is it
1:35:28 christianity is what you're saying
1:35:31 we can explain it simply and clearly
1:35:38 yeah so what he's saying is that so in
1:35:40 islam you could explain it in a very
1:35:41 simple and brief manner what is the the
1:35:43 simple and brief
1:35:45 answer in
1:35:54 christianity that is how
1:35:57 god's justice also has to be taken into
1:36:00 account and
1:36:02 how is god going to be just
1:36:06 uh with the human condition i mean there
1:36:08 is
1:36:11 [Music]
1:36:47 [Music]
1:36:51 and that justice is not arbitrary uh but
1:36:55 god himself provides
1:36:58 um the means for him to be dressed by
1:37:01 inaugurating a new kind of human
1:37:02 condition
1:37:05 this
1:37:07 is not something
1:37:08 [Music]
1:37:10 you know lessening the penalty or
1:37:12 increasing rewards
1:37:14 uh
1:37:15 my question about that would be
1:37:18 you know where is
1:37:23 [Music]
1:37:33 yeah
1:37:33 can i just say for myself can i say
1:37:35 something okay
1:37:37 thank you tim thank you
1:37:39 good man
1:37:39 [Laughter]
1:37:42 there are of course detractors because
1:37:44 they would say things like even in the
1:37:46 christian theory remember jesus doesn't
1:37:48 go to hell for our sake as human beings
1:37:51 of course you must have heard of this
1:37:52 argument before
1:37:53 uh because jesus suffers on the cross in
1:37:55 a christian narrative we are bound to
1:37:57 hell as human beings jesus doesn't go to
1:37:59 hell and this in fact opens up a new big
1:38:01 debate amongst theologians because they
1:38:03 argue
1:38:04 is then the however many hours jesus
1:38:07 spends on the cross is that sufficient
1:38:09 for the forgiveness of all of humanity
1:38:12 and of course some would say yes others
1:38:14 would say well you've got to look at
1:38:16 like in like william lane craig says
1:38:18 look at it in feudalistic terms it
1:38:20 wasn't so much a punishment it was more
1:38:22 like a penalty there's a kind of this
1:38:24 thing about legal fiction in his book so
1:38:26 there's so many different ways of
1:38:27 arguing it but i wanted to say something
1:38:29 i didn't get a chance to say that i
1:38:30 think it might shed more light on
1:38:32 islamic position
1:38:34 this reverse the quran that says
1:38:40 there is nothing in the heavens or in
1:38:42 the earth that you can do to frustrate
1:38:44 god
1:38:45 nothing that humans can do to frustrate
1:38:49 the greatness of god that god is
1:38:51 maximally perfect and the verse and the
1:38:53 fact the verse in the quran says that
1:38:56 all of you of course are impoverished
1:38:57 before god the prophet muhammad said
1:38:59 that allah said that o my servants this
1:39:01 is a beautiful tradition this is all my
1:39:03 servants
1:39:04 i have forbidden injustice on myself
1:39:07 and i forbidden the same amongst you so
1:39:08 do not be unjust to one another
1:39:10 it says oh my servants all of you are
1:39:12 astray
1:39:14 except the one that i guide so ask me
1:39:16 for guidance
1:39:17 all of you are naked exceed that except
1:39:19 he that i closed or asked me for
1:39:21 clothing
1:39:22 all of you are hungry except what i feel
1:39:24 so ask me for for food then it says oh
1:39:27 my servants you sin against me by night
1:39:29 and by day
1:39:30 and i forgive your sins you ask me for
1:39:32 forgiveness and i will forgive you but
1:39:33 then it says this really important thing
1:39:35 it says
1:39:36 you are my servants
1:39:41 all my servants if the first of you and
1:39:43 the last of you and the human of you and
1:39:45 the jinn of you if you were all
1:39:47 collectively in the heart of the most
1:39:49 wretched one of you that wouldn't
1:39:51 decrease my kingdom in anything i know
1:39:54 my servants if the first of you and the
1:39:56 last of you and the human of you and
1:39:57 genevieve were in the heart of the most
1:39:59 pious one of you that wouldn't increase
1:40:01 my kingdom in anything
1:40:03 allah is
1:40:04 allah is maximally perfect it is us who
1:40:07 are in need of god not like what is in
1:40:10 need of course of us that's kind of i
1:40:12 think maybe a bit of a difference in our
1:40:15 outlooks on on salvation
1:40:28 [Music]
1:40:34 is
1:40:37 [Music]
1:40:41 um
1:41:01 because he stands because
1:41:17 in the discussion and the power
1:41:19 but there is a difference perhaps within
1:41:22 how i
1:41:24 evaluate sin because
1:41:27 for christian sin is a condition
1:41:30 it is
1:41:44 [Music]
1:41:52 yeah well i mean it's interesting
1:41:53 because that paradigm does exist in
1:41:55 islam very clearly in the quran in
1:41:58 prophetic relation as well because sin
1:42:00 of course is similar in the sense that
1:42:02 sin is seen as uh an estranged strain of
1:42:05 being god and humanity that there is a
1:42:07 distance there is a kind of a chasm and
1:42:08 a rift uh the quran of course is warning
1:42:11 people about the sins of the heart
1:42:12 because if the heart becomes corrupted
1:42:14 everything else becomes corrupted the
1:42:16 prophet muhammad said there is a lamp of
1:42:17 flesh in the body if it's sound
1:42:20 everything else is sound if it's corrupt
1:42:21 everything else is corrupt indeed that's
1:42:22 the heart he said the quran is
1:42:24 condemning people for their deviations
1:42:27 in fact in the quran you have more than
1:42:28 200 times
1:42:30 the word
1:42:31 misleading straying misguiding in the
1:42:34 quran repeated but at the same time you
1:42:36 have the word wakaya which is where
1:42:38 taqwa comes from repeated as a pushback
1:42:40 against against uh deviation the quran
1:42:44 says
1:42:44 satan is your enemy so take him as
1:42:50 have precautions and protection against
1:42:51 that enmity of the devil
1:42:53 but when it comes to sin for example
1:42:55 look in surah nu the chapter noah in the
1:42:57 quran what does it say it says that adam
1:43:00 here of course is laboring with his
1:43:02 people is i call my people night and day
1:43:04 but they run further from me i call my
1:43:07 people my day and they puff up their
1:43:09 clothes with pride and arrogance i call
1:43:10 them in groups they don't listen call
1:43:12 them alone don't listen he says i say to
1:43:15 them
1:43:16 ask your lord for forgiveness
1:43:18 and your lord is forgiving but then he
1:43:20 says
1:43:21 that allah will bless you with with rain
1:43:24 for your crops and strengthen you with
1:43:27 wealth and children and allow your
1:43:29 guidance to grow a meaning there are
1:43:31 consequences of repentance and goodness
1:43:34 and consequences of sin the prophet
1:43:36 muhammad even said that sin
1:43:38 it decreases provisions in life that you
1:43:41 could have prevention of the rain
1:43:43 because of sins you know you could have
1:43:45 uh i mean in my book divine perfection i
1:43:48 i tackled this question that our
1:43:49 christian friends posed
1:43:51 in quite a few different pages i'm just
1:43:53 going to read a small section from
1:43:56 the works of ibrahim in one of his books
1:43:59 about the effects of sins
1:44:01 and he says for example
1:44:02 if i could just read it very very
1:44:04 quickly
1:44:05 here we are
1:44:09 he said for example in his book he
1:44:11 outlines and he says that
1:44:15 he says lack of success invalid views
1:44:17 absence of righteousness corruption of
1:44:19 the heart failing to praise allah
1:44:21 wasting time avoidance of other
1:44:23 creatures separation between the seven
1:44:25 and his lord supplications not being
1:44:27 answered constriction of the heart
1:44:29 decaying of blessings and subsistence
1:44:31 and age prevention of attaining
1:44:33 knowledge humiliation
1:44:35 uh all of these constricted the heart
1:44:37 evil friends all of these are the
1:44:38 consequences of living a life of sin but
1:44:41 more than that allah says
1:44:44 whoever
1:44:46 turns away from my remembrance then he
1:44:48 will have a life of of constriction a
1:44:50 life of tightness a life of of a lack of
1:44:54 perception a lack of insight a lack of a
1:44:57 closeness to god and that's in fact the
1:44:59 worst of all sins because the worst of
1:45:01 all sins is to be separated from god but
1:45:03 it's quite i think for us it's it's
1:45:06 important for us to
1:45:07 for us as muslims to have these
1:45:09 encounters with our christian friends
1:45:10 because as you know the greatest of all
1:45:12 sins is to ascribe a partner to god
1:45:15 which of course for us as we believe
1:45:17 that's that's the death of the heart
1:45:19 that that is the death of the heart you
1:45:20 know because everything that god places
1:45:23 in us of goodness of our love reverence
1:45:27 fair hope
1:45:29 our longing beseeching praying god wants
1:45:32 all of that focused on on him alone but
1:45:35 when it comes to ascribing partners to
1:45:37 god as you know
1:45:39 it means people have taken others with
1:45:41 god and it could be a bit of this and a
1:45:43 bit of that and a bit of some you know
1:45:46 with one deity with one lord and then
1:45:48 god as well and then there's too much of
1:45:50 that and i think that that's a
1:45:52 human condition that's affected people
1:45:55 who have moved away from that radical
1:45:56 monotheism of course we would agree with
1:45:59 our jewish friends in many areas here
1:46:01 but that i think is the worst of all
1:46:03 sins and so therefore that's something
1:46:04 the quran emphasizes
1:46:16 uh the question of course is
1:46:18 what is the nature of that one god
1:46:22 [Music]
1:46:36 i mean those are the sorts of questions
1:46:37 that might divide us but
1:46:52 yeah i mean of course i discussed this
1:46:54 in my book because as you yourself know
1:46:56 dr dr ali a very in a very learned
1:46:58 experience man it's very a great
1:47:00 blessing for us to be able to talk with
1:47:01 someone that's such high esteemed as
1:47:03 yourself but of course as you know
1:47:05 during the lutheran reformations there
1:47:08 were charges of idolatry against the
1:47:10 catholics for what they've done to marry
1:47:12 mariotary mariology
1:47:14 and this is because they say that there
1:47:16 is a mediator as in jesus and then the
1:47:18 catholics make the mediatrix as in is in
1:47:20 mary and of course between the in
1:47:23 between the christians between muslim
1:47:25 between the christians
1:47:27 this is a struggle you have between
1:47:28 yourselves because
1:47:30 one is charging the other of committing
1:47:32 acts of polytheism and the other of
1:47:34 course is saying we have to
1:47:36 um
1:47:44 [Music]
1:47:51 [Music]
1:48:06 [Music]
1:48:16 of course
1:48:19 um
1:48:21 [Music]
1:48:36 [Music]
1:48:43 make sure that
1:48:46 yeah and this the prophet muhammad was
1:48:48 very concerned between him because he
1:48:50 said that
1:48:51 he said don't praise me
1:48:54 to an extreme
1:48:55 let christians praise the son of mary
1:48:57 he says i am the servant of allah and
1:48:59 his messenger because of course before
1:49:01 him with a christian then he was scared
1:49:03 that perhaps people might do that to him
1:49:05 and maybe in his history people have
1:49:07 done that in small kind of examples
1:49:10 in in uh in the in the division of human
1:49:13 beings once in fact the prophet uh you
1:49:16 know you might know the story when the
1:49:17 prophet saw ibrahim died
1:49:19 and there was there was an eclipse
1:49:22 and
1:49:23 so the prophet's companions they said
1:49:26 this eclipse must mean
1:49:28 that god is sad
1:49:30 because your sons died you're sad you're
1:49:32 crying and maybe god is now sad as well
1:49:35 because your sons died and the prophet
1:49:37 then said to his companions listen
1:49:39 the sun and the moon don't eclipse on
1:49:41 account of the birth or death of anybody
1:49:43 these are just signs of allah and if he
1:49:45 was a charlotte and false prophet he
1:49:47 would have used it to his advantage say
1:49:48 of course of course it's true of course
1:49:50 look at that i've told you all along
1:49:52 even god is upset with uh because
1:49:54 because of my son's loss i think the
1:49:55 idea is therefore and even when the
1:49:57 prophet died himself the prophet's
1:49:59 companion abu bakr said that whoever
1:50:01 worships muhammad
1:50:03 and muhammad is dead but if you worship
1:50:05 allah allah is alive eternal and never
1:50:08 dies you know so it's important for us
1:50:12 [Music]
1:50:20 [Music]
1:50:34 of course the quran of course are
1:50:36 pharmacies
1:50:37 with the caveat when jesus says
1:50:39 everything i'm doing i'm doing with the
1:50:40 permission of god i cannot my own self
1:50:42 do nothing as i hear i obey of course as
1:50:44 the bible confirms as
1:50:50 doing those well
1:50:52 they were amazed because they had not
1:50:55 heard of seeing anyone doing things and
1:50:58 teaching things in that with that kind
1:51:00 of authority
1:51:02 so i think you will have to develop that
1:51:04 yeah but there are of course the other
1:51:05 other verses when jesus says i'm going
1:51:07 to my father and the father is greater
1:51:09 than i and so on and so on
1:51:20 yeah
1:51:23 um i think we've got a couple of
1:51:25 different questions still going in the
1:51:26 audience i don't know how far we're
1:51:28 going to we're all here for we're coming
1:51:30 up in five past nine um
1:51:32 i'm going to be really really cheeky and
1:51:35 jump in before a couple of the questions
1:51:37 because
1:51:38 there's there's a point which has been
1:51:41 gnawing at me and um
1:51:44 it was interesting listening to your
1:51:46 your short discourse there on sin uh
1:51:49 after that chaps question and i think
1:51:52 one of the the numbers that i i knew dr
1:51:55 latif you pushed against it i think it
1:51:57 does come down to it that we have seen
1:52:00 this evening
1:52:01 somewhat of a difference between the
1:52:04 islamic understanding and concept of sin
1:52:07 and the christian understanding
1:52:09 of sin
1:52:11 because
1:52:12 my answer to your question to summarize
1:52:15 the christian gospel would be the words
1:52:17 of sin paul in romans chapter 6 for the
1:52:20 wages of sin is death but the free gift
1:52:23 of god is eternal life through jesus
1:52:25 christ our lord
1:52:27 that christ has covered all our sins and
1:52:30 in the words of isaiah all of our good
1:52:32 works are filthy right so even
1:52:34 multiplied by ten or seven hundred
1:52:37 there is no good to them before god's
1:52:39 face
1:52:40 but it is the satisfaction of christ in
1:52:43 his perfect life and perfect sacrifice
1:52:46 for healing
1:52:47 people to be perfect as god so but i
1:52:50 think that the number there really is
1:52:52 that the wages of sin is death because
1:52:55 dr latif in your presentation earlier on
1:52:58 you talked about how the islamic
1:53:01 understanding
1:53:02 is that uh
1:53:05 adam stumbled
1:53:07 he tripped
1:53:08 he did not fall so i'd be interested if
1:53:11 you'd explain to us a little bit more
1:53:13 about
1:53:14 what is the islamic understanding
1:53:17 of the wages of sin what exactly is the
1:53:21 outcome of sin beyond its general impact
1:53:24 on on temporal living you know you've
1:53:26 talked about the constraints
1:53:28 of humanity
1:53:30 the problems that we live in live with
1:53:32 in this world
1:53:34 and i think christians we can
1:53:36 very well agree with god and see the
1:53:38 effects of sin in the world today we see
1:53:40 those in vladimir putin we've seen them
1:53:43 on the streets coming here today
1:53:45 but what
1:53:46 what does islam see as the eternal
1:53:49 impact of sin and how does islam respond
1:53:55 to those eternal spiritual impacts um in
1:53:58 the way that christianity we say the
1:54:01 wages of sin is death
1:54:02 and that and that
1:54:04 those wages could only be paid by a
1:54:06 perfect sacrifice
1:54:08 what does islam say to that yeah it's a
1:54:10 good question i mean of course we've
1:54:11 been through
1:54:12 different alternate theories of
1:54:13 different people to interpret and
1:54:15 understand what this in fact means in
1:54:16 the cosmic scheme of things
1:54:18 uh we don't have a concept like the
1:54:20 widget of sin is death in fact we have
1:54:22 more of it more of a
1:54:25 is a different narrative about what
1:54:27 death actually means and the purpose
1:54:29 behind death in fact allah says allah
1:54:31 has created death and life
1:54:33 to test those who are best in action
1:54:35 that death is a reminder about the
1:54:37 temporality of life
1:54:39 the finiteness of life of life the
1:54:41 prophet muhammad said that take care of
1:54:43 five before five take care of your youth
1:54:46 before you grow old take care of your
1:54:47 health before you become sick take care
1:54:49 of your time before you become busy
1:54:51 take care of your
1:54:53 your wealth before you become poor take
1:54:55 care of your life before you die meaning
1:54:57 it's an inevitability of an end time we
1:54:59 don't live
1:55:00 uh
1:55:01 for if infinity we don't live forever so
1:55:04 therefore there has to be an end point
1:55:06 to our to our life here on earth and
1:55:08 then of course it's seen because this is
1:55:10 teleology this is about the purpose
1:55:12 driven
1:55:14 focus or function of life itself um that
1:55:17 within this constraint of time that god
1:55:19 has given us with all of the amenities
1:55:21 with all of the blessings god wants us
1:55:23 to use all of that you know for his
1:55:25 praise for his remembrance and for his
1:55:26 worship for conviviality between us and
1:55:29 fellow men
1:55:31 until the time comes where we cease to
1:55:33 exist because death is the ceasation of
1:55:35 life
1:55:36 um
1:55:37 death in fact
1:55:38 sin of course for us is far more
1:55:40 consequential than just death and dying
1:55:43 because death is just a ceasation of
1:55:45 life and all of us cease to exist one
1:55:47 time
1:55:49 death of course and islam is seen as
1:55:52 like christianity i think all theists
1:55:54 believe the same thing in fact about
1:55:55 seeing that there's going to be some
1:55:56 kind of a rupture some kind of a
1:55:59 you know a distancing a chasm something
1:56:02 that's going to upset the natural order
1:56:03 between us and god something we've done
1:56:05 so we shouldn't have done
1:56:06 we've done it
1:56:07 but the question is all about that the
1:56:09 question is
1:56:10 who is god in in light of the sin allah
1:56:13 says
1:56:16 and what is your impression of the lord
1:56:19 of the worlds so if you think about this
1:56:21 for a moment in light of all atonement
1:56:23 theories the sacrificial model and the
1:56:25 dispute i mean all of these different
1:56:27 atonement theories
1:56:28 you know i mean who is god at the end of
1:56:30 all of it who is god i mean where's the
1:56:32 agreement on what god actually is imam
1:56:35 shafi'i when he was dying he made this
1:56:37 prayer and he says he says to al-famin
1:56:40 he says my sins look so great in my eyes
1:56:42 oh allah
1:56:43 when i compare my sins to your
1:56:44 forgiveness your forgiveness is bigger
1:56:46 than my sin
1:56:47 so the sin might be great but we say
1:56:49 allahu akbar we say allah is greater
1:56:51 allah is bigger than the sin and allah's
1:56:53 mercy is bigger than the sin allah is
1:56:55 bigger than the sin
1:56:56 so we say of course if a person lives in
1:56:59 sin the prophet muhammad said every time
1:57:00 a person sins it's a black stain on his
1:57:02 heart
1:57:03 and if he sins again another black
1:57:05 standards are it's all metaphysical but
1:57:07 what it means is that there is a a
1:57:09 blocking of the most valuable thing
1:57:11 which god gave us which of course is a
1:57:13 heart because all of us are potentially
1:57:15 recipient to god's divine message not
1:57:18 because of the heirs but because of the
1:57:19 heart right allah says
1:57:22 that some people you know you could have
1:57:24 allah it's not the uh
1:57:26 the eyes that grow blind but it is the
1:57:28 heart that grows blind some people can
1:57:30 have full vision but they have dead
1:57:32 hearts there was a man in medina from
1:57:34 banu akif and the prophet will tell his
1:57:36 companions come
1:57:38 let us go and see the man who has vision
1:57:41 meaning perception but he was fully
1:57:43 blind
1:57:44 but that's not how he judged him based
1:57:46 upon his physical blindness but he was
1:57:48 considering the fact that he has a heart
1:57:50 that is awake
1:57:51 but sin therefore leads to the death of
1:57:53 the heart and when that happens then
1:57:55 you're going to have problems of
1:57:57 disbelief
1:57:58 of alienation of atheism agnosticism all
1:58:01 these different kinds of things god
1:58:03 loves those who are
1:58:04 forbearing god loves those who are
1:58:06 merciful god loves those who are
1:58:08 repenting god loves those who forbid god
1:58:11 loves those who pardon others so we have
1:58:13 all of these uh paradigms to try and be
1:58:16 in life now we won't of course get there
1:58:18 fully because we have shortcomings as
1:58:20 human beings we have temporalities and
1:58:22 all of this
1:58:23 but that's something that the quran
1:58:24 gives us therefore even the sin of
1:58:26 course is a terrible thing and the quran
1:58:28 warns against it the prophet muhammad
1:58:30 warned against it
1:58:32 sin can lead to terrible things in an
1:58:34 individual life in the cosmos around us
1:58:37 um one of the beautiful prayers that we
1:58:39 read is allah malata
1:58:43 so in mind oh allah don't deprive me of
1:58:45 the good that you have because of the
1:58:46 sin that i have right because it could
1:58:48 be some deprivation because of the sin
1:58:50 that i'm committing
1:58:52 in fact one of the scholars would say
1:58:53 that
1:58:55 if you sin
1:58:56 you might notice the immediate effects
1:58:58 of that sin and how your wife treats you
1:59:01 or how you how your animal is with you
1:59:03 meaning there's going to be a change in
1:59:04 the cosmos around you because of the
1:59:06 effects of sin but at the same time we
1:59:08 don't
1:59:09 we i mean the prophet muhammad said that
1:59:11 allah says
1:59:15 my mercy perceives my anger
1:59:17 god's mercy precedes his anger right so
1:59:20 we can speak therefore about divine
1:59:22 justice we also believe in justice we
1:59:23 also do the same thing there's
1:59:24 punishment god's punishment
1:59:26 um but we don't put that above and
1:59:28 beyond our impression of god as a loving
1:59:31 merciful being
1:59:40 [Music]
1:59:42 that activity necessarily talking about
1:59:45 by legitimate but spiritually
1:59:48 and that can be experienced now like
1:59:50 that
1:59:51 is just saying but it is actually
1:59:54 something that
1:59:55 we have to be wrong
2:00:04 um
2:00:15 [Music]
2:00:32 i think you did say that god or the
2:00:35 father had to become the son in order to
2:00:37 experience what um death was like is
2:00:40 that not completely in discordance with
2:00:43 the belief that god is ongoing
2:00:46 and that god is an all-perfect creator
2:00:49 of everything
2:00:50 and as a muslim it appears to me that
2:00:52 these different atonement theories were
2:00:54 in fact later engineered by church
2:00:55 fathers to make sense of heresies such
2:00:57 as original sin crucifixion of christ
2:01:00 claimed that jesus was
2:01:01 the divine son of god being sacrificed
2:01:03 and that they were essential for the
2:01:05 survival of catholic doctrine as how
2:01:07 else could they sustain a monopoly on
2:01:10 the idea of forgiveness in christian
2:01:11 minds how far back can modern christian
2:01:14 research actually trace back these
2:01:16 doctrines
2:01:17 thank you
2:01:18 yeah but i think what he's saying is
2:01:20 that the uh in the christian model it
2:01:22 seems as if
2:01:23 uh christianity
2:01:25 needs sin to be
2:01:28 utterly terrible in order for jesus's
2:01:30 sacrifice to be acceptable and make
2:01:32 sense
2:01:33 isn't it i think we want something like
2:01:35 that yeah yeah and then
2:01:37 sorry i've managed to sneakily sneak in
2:01:39 two questions all right okay go ahead
2:01:41 the first one was how if you were to
2:01:44 claim that the father had to become the
2:01:45 strong okay so wait wait so he's asking
2:01:48 if you are to claim that the
2:01:50 there's this the father became the son
2:01:52 he came from the son in order to know
2:01:54 yes so if the son
2:01:56 incarnation of jesus christ into this
2:01:58 into a human yeah
2:02:00 then how um if the father had to become
2:02:03 the son in order to know what the
2:02:05 experience was like is that not in
2:02:07 discordance with the believer ah okay
2:02:10 yeah so he's saying therefore if if if
2:02:12 the sun had to be incarnated in order to
2:02:15 feel us as human beings doesn't that
2:02:17 reflect a
2:02:19 uh
2:02:20 a lack of
2:02:22 lack of like the
2:02:25 omnipotence omnipotence of god or
2:02:26 missing omniscience of god being
2:02:28 all-knowing that wouldn't he have known
2:02:30 his creation why would he need to mingle
2:02:32 with them in order to know them if he
2:02:34 created them
2:02:36 god's distance is
2:02:39 something about
2:02:41 but this is about sharing the different
2:02:43 conditions
2:02:47 [Music]
2:02:57 um
2:02:59 [Music]
2:03:06 i don't think there is any contradiction
2:03:09 there
2:03:10 but it is true
2:03:17 um
2:03:29 otherwise what kind of freedom would
2:03:31 that be
2:03:32 so
2:03:34 the fact that human beings
2:03:37 and god is that have to act
2:03:39 to correct that actually shows
2:03:54 and he is
2:03:56 meaning allah knows about them the most
2:03:58 subtle of things and the most apparent
2:04:00 of all things
2:04:04 um i think
2:04:08 it was very interesting um in terms of
2:04:10 the historical knowledge
2:04:12 uh but in terms of the
2:04:14 i think there's one fundamental question
2:04:16 that i've not
2:04:17 that i think hasn't really been answered
2:04:20 with islam perspective
2:04:22 and i think that's really of all
2:04:25 problems that are seeing the answers
2:04:27 that are occurring to you tonight
2:04:29 and
2:04:31 it doesn't really really my main
2:04:32 question
2:04:35 how does god reveal himself to man that
2:04:38 is why should we believe what muhammad
2:04:41 says what we believe what anyone at all
2:04:44 says
2:04:45 about
2:04:46 knowing that we don't all receive like
2:04:51 revelations in a sort of um
2:04:54 miraculous way you don't always hear
2:04:56 you're not speaking to us like
2:04:58 directly so what would be yes a good
2:05:01 question is asking uh so why should we
2:05:03 believe
2:05:04 uh
2:05:06 again why should we believe that god
2:05:09 why should we believe in anyone yeah so
2:05:11 of course i mean this is a discussion
2:05:13 amongst theists we have christians here
2:05:16 we have muslims here we both believe
2:05:18 in god to begin with and there are
2:05:20 different things that people could point
2:05:22 to that are indicative of
2:05:24 god's existence quran for example calls
2:05:27 us to be cognizant of of reality itself
2:05:31 if you know yourself then you will know
2:05:33 god it doesn't take that long for a
2:05:35 person just looking at yourself in the
2:05:36 mirror to know that you are of course a
2:05:38 sophisticated remarkable
2:05:41 symmetrical creation with so many
2:05:43 amazing things like a conscience how can
2:05:45 you explain what a conscience is if it's
2:05:46 something inside of you that's not
2:05:48 material uh look at the creation of god
2:05:50 himself allah says indeed in the
2:05:53 creation of the heavens and the earth
2:05:54 are signs for people who think and and
2:05:56 perceive and understand and so on and so
2:05:58 forth
2:05:59 for me in my in my studies of human
2:06:02 empathy i was just
2:06:03 i mean it really led me to a much
2:06:05 stronger
2:06:06 i mean i'm a
2:06:08 very strong believer i believe i mean of
2:06:10 course i don't have any
2:06:11 uh wavering doubts in god ever but but
2:06:14 i'm saying that when i when i looked at
2:06:16 empathy and the remarkable nature of
2:06:18 human empathy it really gave me that
2:06:20 much more conviction
2:06:22 in in the great supreme nature of god
2:06:25 himself
2:06:27 but of course different thiefs will
2:06:28 point to different
2:06:29 things that people could look at when it
2:06:30 comes to their own religious traditions
2:06:33 in the quran in islam of course we have
2:06:34 the quran which we believe is the word
2:06:37 of allah which we believe is something
2:06:39 that was revealed to the prophet prophet
2:06:42 muhammad peace be upon him
2:06:43 over 23 year period it is not a book
2:06:46 that was given at one time but a book
2:06:48 revealed over 23 years
2:06:50 during different encounters episodes in
2:06:52 the prophetic life it is not the words
2:06:54 of muhammad it is the words of allah
2:06:58 yeah but why this is a good point so why
2:07:00 should we believe it because the quran i
2:07:01 mean the quran itself does have like a
2:07:03 falsification test for people who ask
2:07:06 questions like that the quran for
2:07:07 example says if this is not from allah
2:07:09 then find discrepancies and
2:07:11 contradictions in it if it isn't from
2:07:13 allah then produce a chapter like it
2:07:16 so these were of course challenges for
2:07:18 people in the prophet's time who were
2:07:20 masters in arabic literature and grammar
2:07:23 and and poetry and this this was in fact
2:07:26 was a remarkable challenge for them in
2:07:28 their time until today
2:07:30 so the quran therefore does have an
2:07:32 in-built challenge kind of process
2:07:35 uh but there of course is much more than
2:07:37 that we look at the prophet's life for
2:07:38 example remarkable life you know and i
2:07:41 think that even for example christian
2:07:43 missionaries like look at in my book i
2:07:45 quote samuel zwiemer samuel zwemer who
2:07:48 worked in the muslim world uh trying to
2:07:50 convert muslims his whole life and wrote
2:07:53 books against islam
2:07:55 in the 19th early 20th century he said
2:07:57 he was a reluctant admirer of muhammad
2:08:00 and said different things about
2:08:01 caricaturizations of muhammad but by the
2:08:04 end of his life he becomes this
2:08:07 real admirer of muhammad and he says for
2:08:09 example that muhammad was one of the
2:08:12 greatest human souls ever created
2:08:15 because he was able to bring the arab
2:08:17 pagans back to the worship of the one
2:08:19 living god so different people and this
2:08:21 is why for example even like william
2:08:24 montgomery what and others they say that
2:08:26 all of these
2:08:27 caricatures of muhammad
2:08:30 medieval polemics are an embarrassment
2:08:32 to christians today
2:08:34 embarrassment because they're just
2:08:36 taking sound bites and this and that but
2:08:38 not looking at the full remarkable
2:08:40 nature of his life and remember the
2:08:42 process was not um calling to anything
2:08:45 except to the worship of the one god
2:08:48 and so you know there are different
2:08:49 things i guess that people can point to
2:08:51 that reflect the validity of of their
2:08:54 faith second to that of course is islam
2:08:57 sees itself as a holistic faith system
2:09:00 it is not just about believing in one
2:09:03 thing let's say about salvation we
2:09:06 believe that many things in fact lead to
2:09:08 salvation in islam we believe that
2:09:10 salvation is a living process in islam
2:09:13 we believe am i waking up in fact is a
2:09:15 part of the salvific program in islam my
2:09:17 sleeping is part of that my waking
2:09:20 cognition to remember allah and sleeping
2:09:22 constantly to remember allah is in fact
2:09:24 part of that salvific function as a
2:09:27 muslim
2:09:28 so everything that we do in life in fact
2:09:30 is part of attaining to that salvation
2:09:32 which we believe is what god told god
2:09:35 told us to do so for example even if
2:09:37 it's something like me
2:09:39 the prophet said that never belittle any
2:09:41 good deed even smiling meeting your
2:09:44 brother with a cheerful face don't
2:09:45 belittle that good deed the prophet said
2:09:48 that paradise is under the feet of your
2:09:49 mothers you know and so therefore
2:09:52 i mean i kiss my mother's feet i'm sure
2:09:53 you guys kiss your mother's feet as well
2:09:55 and she says ah why why don't do that i
2:09:57 said because my heaven is there
2:09:59 i have to remind my mother my heaven is
2:10:01 there you know i said if all of these
2:10:03 things are beautiful things
2:10:05 that reflect the fact that a muslim
2:10:07 isn't just about by a muslim it means i
2:10:09 want to submit his will to god there
2:10:11 isn't something that is based upon a
2:10:12 single moment of a single action it
2:10:15 means his entire existence
2:10:17 is to be in in that submission to the
2:10:19 will of god you know so that's something
2:10:21 that
2:10:22 i think we should say
2:10:26 one very quick last question from pablo
2:10:29 oh yes sorry following in in tim's
2:10:31 footsteps i do have one question for dr
2:10:33 nasir ali um
2:10:35 it really has to do with what you
2:10:37 described as jesus filling the role that
2:10:40 we couldn't potentially ever fill and so
2:10:43 basically
2:10:44 the requirement has been met but i'd
2:10:46 like to know i have a hard time
2:10:48 understanding what the requirements and
2:10:50 limitations are of this um
2:10:53 seeing as the role has already been done
2:10:55 how does this apply to those who live
2:10:56 before jesus and okay what are the
2:10:58 limitations of that yeah okay so the
2:11:00 sister is asking the question of course
2:11:02 theologians ask this amongst themselves
2:11:04 but they say
2:11:05 if jesus has paid the price of that sin
2:11:08 what does it say about those who came
2:11:11 before jesus
2:11:12 uh
2:11:13 is it kind of a
2:11:15 a whole humanity atonement
2:11:18 or is it only for those who are like
2:11:20 william lane craig speaks about the
2:11:21 pardons you have to accept the pardon
2:11:24 first before you can be forgiven or is
2:11:27 it kind of a universal because remember
2:11:29 of course in the old testament the our
2:11:31 jewish friends would argue against it by
2:11:33 saying things like a job is praised in
2:11:36 the bible abraham is a friend of god in
2:11:38 the bible
2:11:39 even in the book of i think look it is
2:11:41 that it says
2:11:45 zechariah and
2:11:47 elizabeth we're going to fulfill the law
2:11:50 blamelessly you know uh that they were
2:11:53 blameless they fulfilled the law like a
2:11:56 hundred percent which i think runs
2:11:58 counter to the christian paradigm of of
2:12:00 us being unable but anyway the sister is
2:12:02 asking uh is this is it a universal
2:12:06 atonement for even those before jesus or
2:12:10 only those who came after jesus is that
2:12:12 the question says yes
2:12:16 there are anticipations
2:12:21 [Music]
2:12:44 um
2:12:48 and in fact
2:12:52 the new testament piece of the sacrifice
2:12:54 having
2:12:55 an eternal significance
2:12:58 so
2:12:59 there
2:13:01 areas is time is concerned
2:13:04 the first letter of peters
2:13:07 does talk about
2:13:10 jesus
2:13:11 after the crucifixion
2:13:13 preaching to the departed experience
2:13:18 in 80s
2:13:20 and it does that twice in chapter three
2:13:22 and chapter four
2:13:25 it's
2:13:26 highly clear
2:13:27 but it does it must mean that there is
2:13:30 some concern for those who have died
2:13:32 before the coming of christ so there is
2:13:34 no
2:13:35 barrier to
2:13:37 the effectiveness of the atonement
2:13:42 thank you very much for the answer
2:13:44 great thank you so much
2:13:49 [Music]
2:13:54 [Music]
2:14:01 especially with my final question that
2:14:02 just kind of took that over the edges of
2:14:04 them
2:14:04 um so at the introduction to this
2:14:07 discussion i posed a few questions and i
2:14:11 kind of um let us all know about the
2:14:13 magnitude and eternal nature of the
2:14:15 questions that we were going to be
2:14:16 answering today so i just like to remind
2:14:18 you of those questions we ask who is god
2:14:22 we speak of salvation but what matters
2:14:24 is who is saving us and how are we being
2:14:26 saved
2:14:27 is god merciful is god vengeful what are
2:14:30 the requisites for being forgiven and
2:14:32 how do we atone for our sins
2:14:34 is salvation achieved through sacrifice
2:14:37 or by personal effort or have we been
2:14:39 granted it already by some special grace
2:14:42 and i'm sure you'll all agree that
2:14:44 throughout tonight's discussion with our
2:14:45 two brilliant guest speakers these
2:14:47 questions have definitely been answered
2:14:49 from both the islamic and the christian
2:14:51 perspective so with that i would like to
2:14:53 give a very warm thanks to both of our
2:14:55 speakers for their time and um their
2:14:57 efforts in preparing for this discussion
2:15:00 and i'd like to thank all of you this
2:15:01 evening for showing up um if we could
2:15:03 get a round of applause
2:15:06 [Applause]
2:15:10 and i would like to wish you all a good
2:15:12 night and thank you for coming to this
2:15:14 collaboration between the theological
2:15:16 society and the muslim students
2:15:17 association thank you
2:15:20 [Applause]
2:15:22 thank you so much dr nazir ali wonderful
2:15:24 wonderful spending time with you thank
2:15:26 you so much
2:15:30 sorry just on behalf of the theological
2:15:32 society that i also i gave my my sincere
2:15:36 thanks to both dr nazar ali and dr latif
2:15:40 for what has been quite a marathon
2:15:42 meeting uh and so very blind ranging as
2:15:45 well and thank you all for engaging so
2:15:47 well uh in our discussion this evening
2:15:50 so my thanks again
2:15:51 and good evening and best wishes to uh
2:15:55 both dr latifah and dr nelson
2:15:58 thank you
2:15:59 thank you so much